Most of their criticisms of OSR are about AD&D. B/X or Old School Essentials is easier to learn than 5e. It’s much simpler, especially if you use ascending armor class.
So far the first few minutes is this fellow trashing AD&D….I’m wondering if he’s actually played OSR games? Whose “Rosetta Stone” is mostly “B/X” Then the next fellow goes on about AD&D also and says “I haven’t played OSR”…. There are a *few* AD &D type OSR games…but most of us base the game in B/X…
5e simpler? Class, subclass, feats, proficiences, action, bonus action, etc. "are you flanking" Am i rolling with advantage? compared to Move and do something of BECMI or B/X. pfft
90%+ of the OSR things that I see commonly referenced and played (DCC, OSE, Knave, Whitehack, Blackhack, etc.) are usually less complex than 5e and SURELY less complex than AD&D 2e. Mostly because they revere and seek to mimic B/X, BECMI, or Rulescyclopedia-era works, not AD&D 2e. So, I don't really understand a lot of the critiques presented here.
I just started reading RC and that is not simple! 😅 I came recall exactly which rules and systems were taken from the CM part of BECMI as we didn't use them that much back in the day and then switched to 2nd ed but it looks as though RC is creating new rules to be comprehensive and it seems to me it loses a lot of the charm of the B/X or BE.
Hopefully 5.5 D&D it is a new revised edition regardless of marketing claims will include rules for designing dungeon crawls. I think many younger D&D players would enjoy that as well if exposed to it.
Thac0 was unintuitive labelling. The gap between player expectation and the Experience the system delivers has gotten smaller as editions have advanced.
@@crapstirrer I find the THAC0 hate funny. We had no problems with it as kids back in the day. To me the modern game has dumbed the whole thing down to where there is no mystery to the game mechanics behind the DM screen and players are telling DM's they hit when they roll.
I personally prefer B/X rules over fifth edition, because I find them much easier for everyone to understand. For me they facilitate faster more entertaining play than 5e. As others have already commented: its a shame that so many 5e players like the individual in this video falsely believe that B/X will be more complex. The aspects they love about 5e are even stronger in modern OSR systems like old school essentials!
Seems like I'm the only 20yo mf that ran a Rules Cyclopedia one-shot and loved it, then ran a 5E one-shot and hated it. *PS:* My RC one-shot was my first time running a d20 system.
I enjoy exploration the most so i tend to lean heavily to OSR, honestly looking at the early days of 5e the biggest difference is playstyle or gaming philosophy, for instance look at page 25 in the 5e dmg at the advice given on creating the Campaign, the start small section very closely mirrors the advice given by Gary Gygax in the early days of D&D
I haven't played OSR, but I do look through it to get ideas on how to freak my players out (Level draining) or make them feel epic (followers, minions). So looking back can be very inspirational.
It’s crazy how far off base everyone on this video is. Having almost no understanding of the OSR and trying to compare and decide which is better is pointless.
@@NoFunAllowed it’s funny because I pushed back against the OSR for a long time, using some of the same ‘logic’ that your guests used. But once I decided to actually try it for myself I found that the system(s) was exactly what I’ve been looking for. I’ve played everything with my groups and kids from Paranoia! and PF2e to AD&D and 5e. But now that I’ve been able to introduce them to a bunch of the OSR stuff, when asked what they want to play it is always, without question either OSE or Mörk Borg.
This was 10 minutes of I like my bubble 🤣 Like seriously, this was framed like "hey let's have an experienced conversation" and quickly became the opposite. There are people to play with and it's popular is the worst reason to choose a system Followed immediately by I have more important stuff to do
I love both 5E and the OSR. The DIY and zine culture of the OSR has won me over though. A bit confused by all talk of 3.5, complicated math, and mechanics as issues with OSR rule sets from the two guys that stated their preference towards a modern game though.
3.5e is way more complex than 1e/2e. It has a.dozen different categories of bonus, with bonuses from the same category not stacking, but bonuses from distinct categories stacking. You get munchkins manipulating the system to AC 75 and other crazy stuff.
I'm surprised this creates so much discussion. It's really pretty simple, if you want a rules framework that covers most situations and provides more guidance, you go new school. This provides consistency in gameplay and outcome. If you want to make it up as you go along, you want things to vary, and you're comfortable with improvising, then go old school. I think old school provides a more alien environment, one where magic can be more mysterious, and cause and effect are not what you think they are necessarily. But it's just a matter of style really.
5e has more in common with B/X than B/X or 5e do with AD&D. Mike Mearls was a fan of B/X and the design of it shows in 5e’s relative simplicity compared to 1-4e
@@rossm7346 it's funny how everyone assumes 3E was this complicated mess. 3rd edition isn't any more complicated than 5e, just more flexible. Oh, and you need some first grade addition and subtraction now and then. Not a huge bar
@@priestesslucy I mean, alright? 3e isn't that complicated. That has little to do with a discussion where a bunch of people are saying "Oh yeah, the OSR, you mean 3e? Oh yeah mean AD&D 2e?" and they don't know what they are talking about. I was looking at Star Wars D20 (3e inspired) yesterday, looks like a lot of fun! I could see myself playing and running 3e. Real tired of 5e
@@mythicmountainsrpg could you elaborate on exactly what you're sick of in 5E? My background is 3.P but a lot of people I know are into 5E so I've been digging into it a bit. Definitely not my preference lol
Something I think that I would like about OSR is spellcasters getting less spells and I could hand out spellbook, scroll and spellcasting wands / staffs as loot to make up for it.
What I find interesting though is that if that was the design intent, those things are quite sparse in a lot of modules and even if you leave it to luck using treasure charts. Would be nice if there was more explicit advice to DM's on how to hand them out as well as advice on handing out items that fit other player preferences (such as favored weapons). Not take away all of the randomness which I think is awesome.
My take on this issue stems from my old age (turning 50 next year) and the fact I now play solo. For these two reasons, OSR rules are way more attractive to me than the 5e framework. That is, if your level 1 character does not die during the first encounter 😅
It is a bit weirdly framed. OSR games are modern systems. Some are full retroclones, better written and organised versions with rules unchanged from OD&D, AD&D1E and AD&D 2E. The changes they made in the rest of the OSR are definitely informed by modern game design. Also, it is not modern systems, but maybe an implication of D&D 5E specifically I think most people assumed. I grew up on AD&D 1E and I would rather play a modern system in a heartbeat if I got to pick it but if it was OSR vs random choice of modern system or OSR vs D&D 5E I would much rather pick the OSR. A clearer dichotomy would be, would you rather play 20th century D&D or 5E?
@@NoFunAllowed That was the sense I got. Anyway, it was a different discussion from what I anticipated from the title but a perfectly good watch nonetheless. :)
“I’ve never actually played OSR games, but I played those Baldur’s Gate 2E games from the 90’s so, that’s why I think modern games are better.” Oof My first GM “hated D&D” and we only played narrative games like “FATE”…that was 2015 and he thought D&D was just still AD&D. Yeah I went through that, and it held me back from the revelation that is OSR (not at all AD&D). This is why we should all keep an open mind and be willing to try different games a few times.
Also @no fun allowed, you should do an OSE one shot for these folks so they can experience the OSR, and help clear up their misconceptions. Something like “Winters Daughter”
By all means, play the game you enjoy. But please don't keep saying that one game is "better". It's a matter of personal taste. Games come in different flavors because not all who play desire the same experience. Enjoy and celebrate the diversity!
I definitely wouldn't say 5e is better having had wrinkles in love with it for years and having transitioned to OSR within the last year. There is an evolution though, like in ascending AC (I know it's a cliche), attempting to give all character classes a certain efficiency in combat, clear action economy, letting characters advance (more) evenly in levels etc. I know some of these things aren't just simply better in newer editions and there are reasons to enjoy the old ways, but they are generally a more honed designed.
Osric is better organized than 5E. Hero's Journey has better magic. Pathfinder 2E is vastly more interesting to play, and easier to run than 5E. Hyperborea has more atmosphere. Old School Essentials is more elegant. Dungeon World is revolutionary. Please don't think that 5E is the pinnacle of the form. The corporate demands on it have warped the game considerably. I know that PF2E and Dungeon World aren't OSR. I am just saying that horizons are broader than you may know if you haven't looked outside Hasbro's walled garden.
It really just comes down to what kind of game you want to play. OSR is sword and socery, low fantasy and 5e is high fantasy. In my opinion 5e wanted to capture the openeded nature of OSR by making it a rules light game but with modern sensibilities and they did a great job. People need to realize that just about any system can be what they want it to be. The stove anaology works well. The stove isn't the food but can help you cook whatever dish you desire.
5E is Marvel Superhéroes in a pseudo medieval fantasy enviroment. No Swords and Sorcery, no low Fantasy, even Epic Fantasy like Dragonlance can't be played with 5E (Raistlin didn't have infinite cantrips, neither Goldmoon, etc). OSR games are much easier to play than 5E or Rail Road Finder, while being more complete. And remember OSE, Hyperborea, OSRIC, Swords & Wizardry, AD&D, DCC, etc, are all Dungeons & Dragons while 5E, 4E, Rail Road Finder and even 3.5, are not Dungeons and Dragons, not even close.
I like the guy with the hat's perspective.... There really is no divide.. That's how I play.. I love the lore....that exists throughout the ages and editions. I use 5e core. Roll d20 vs DC. Advantage/disadvantage... But I go osr for flavor
Mat Mercer+pandemic+tech+d&d e1 = massive popularity. Yes 5e accessibility helps, but it has exploded because of situations that didn't exist when first edition came out. I think they are all great and are only limited by the dm.
@@priestesslucy @Priestess Lucy sort of, I started playing basic d&d, then they added to it and became expert edition. Then they came out with Advanced D&D. These were all mostly the same which collectively I call first edition. Then they came out with second edition. All of these editions just built on each other, but they were very similar. 2nd edition was were all the skills and specializations came into the game.
@@archersfriend5900 oh, I get you. The 'e1' nomenclature isn't something I've seen anywhere before. Most people call the Holmes > Moldvay > Mentzer stuff Basic DnD to distinguish it from OD&D/White Box and AD&D (which got numbered editions.)
@@priestesslucy lol, I loved the older editions. I love 5th edition for some of the mechanics, but it is a way different game for the dm than the earlier editions. Most of my gripes with 5e are from the dm side.
OSR for sure. And B/X - OSE and many current retroclones, like Swords & Wizardry, are much simpler than 5e. There are even a bunch of more original OSR stuff like Knave, Cairn, Into the Odd which are even more minimalist. So I totally disagree with the "5e is simple" argument, although I wholly respect everyone who prefer the modern style of game
A lot of these guys have obviously never even read the OSR games books, much less played them. Their critiques literally MAKE NO SENSE to anyone who has read and played those games. I can get a whole party of OSR characters ready from scratch in less than ten minutes. I challenge anyone to get a whole table of 3-5th edition characters ready in that time frame. The BEST new materials for RPG games (modules and adventures mostly) are currently being produced for the OSR only as 5th and Pathfinder are tortuous and un-fun to make high level or even mid-level dungeons for due to all the crazy and complicated monster and character options and special attacks at those levels. Just look at the modules Necrotic Gnome has produced.......any one of them easily stands toe to toe with the most highly rated modules of yesteryear in design, concept and fun and have the bonus that player's haven't adventured through them thousands of times over the years so you get fresh surprises and plot twists. These guys need to play Old School Essentials or Dungeon Crawl Classics, their tunes would change REAL quick as they realize how wrong they have been. If you have only played "modern" games then you don't even know the conceptual prison you are trapped in. It's like someone forced into Veganism by their parents convinced that Meat tastes terrible. Give them a slice of bacon, and their lives will change overnight. Don't live in a bubble......get out and try new things, even if those things are old.
I played every edition from white box except B/X. I agree with most of these critiques. I was not a fan of D&D until 3.x. I was always pushing for other games. While I don't care for 5 as much as 3.5 I do see improvements in modern games.
I'm learning the BECMI system right now. I was really hoping that I'd be able to use this system with my 5e adventures, like Strixhaven. It sounds like I will be able to. That's exciting. I like both systems. But I think my preference would be a combination of the two.
I love playing 5th Edition but absolutely also enjoy the options and wide variety and ease of play in the many options of the OSR. For example, Basic Fantasy is fantastic and fun and has a good community, and its entry point is 100% free with PDFs or printed rulebook quality in print form on Amazon for $5.00. I also enjoy OSRIC AD&D 1st edition for the modern age is great also "Whitebox" is another great one. There are also so many more I could mention but I think you can play both 5th and love it and also love the OSR. I would in the future like to see you do a video on several of the OSR editions out there we all grow when we share.
I think every edition of d&d has its own merits and its own flaws. As for the broader question of osr vs modern, I'd say I prefer OSR for the reason you said above. It's nice to be individually powerful like in 5e, but being an osr fighter leading a small mercenary army is just way cooler.
I like modern design in game mechanics but I prefer old school design in adventures and settings. I think that it was a good thing modern designers make beginning characters less fragile than they were in the old days, but that does tend to take some of the danger and excitement out of the adventures.
I really love your take, No Fun! That's one of the reasons I love it as well when I DM. However, when I "play" with my kids and my wife runs us, I gladly play and have fun with whatever they wanna play and she wants to run. 🙂
I taught my niece to play BECMI style game, though unfortunately had to use the Rule Cyclopedia since the basic set isn't available in reprint. The RC is a bit dense including four box set plus some extra stuff. Still, its the system I know and to me 5e looks so much more complicated (when compared to the basic and expert level material, more so compared to the starting material in the basic set).
Cool vid! Well done gentlemen! My best friend’s uncle handed down all his 70’s and earliest 80’s material to us kids. We didn’t know what we were doing! We were using anything and everything. Basic, Advanced, older stuff, other games, made up rules…. It was a chaotic blast. When 2nd addition came about we mainly played that rule set. That would be the old school version I would go back to. But I think 5e has grown on me quite severely. I think I’m a better dm with the 5e game than with the old school madness. Im torn in two and can’t decide!!!! Though, like Flutes, it’s easier for us to get a 5e game going than an os game.
I play both styles but have been mostly doing OSR. Older gamer...seems to be the trend. Game of choice is Dragonslayer by greg gillespie. 5e definitely for new ..younger players though. 5e is way more forgiving.
Heh I learned from the original Monster Manuel OSR The book from Gary Gygax.. TSR Hobbies.. And Advanced D&D I never played the 5th edition before and these plastic figures were shocking to me.. When we played the real dnd figures were few and far apart. It was almost all pewter.. When we played we had a dungeon master some dice a couple figures a pencil and a piece of graph paper. And our charachter sheets. And a lot of imagination.. Ha ha ha ha ha Like i said i havent played 5th edition yet but my favorite thing about it is that the Monster Manuel matches the figures.. Even if they arw plastic.. I am just glad they arw available and the hobbie is flourishing.. Great Question amd guests Thanx
I started wtih ADND 1st edition back in 1980. Having looked through 5e, i immediately turned to OSE and blended rules from there and ADND 1st edition. 5e, for me is bloated with modifiers to make players roll a die to change their shorts. The focus, to me, seems to be on making the characters similar to video game characters where they are almost invincible and can come back to life at any time if they happen to die, which hardly ever happens in 5e that i can tell. Theater of the mind is few and far between with regards to actual game play. From watching Critical Role i can see that 5e DMs are the whole show, PCs don't get involved with descriptive actions or narrative as much as in OSE type gaming. Now i do like some of the aspects of 5e, such as the use of investigation and perception, mind you ive adapted that to ADND rules. What it boils down to is play the version you are happy with. Or blend the guidelines from all versions into your own. For me that is what DND is meant to be, your imagination fueled by input from whatever source material you find fun. ROLL ON!!
It always impresses me when I watch these discussions, the vast majority of D&D players happily agree or disagree, like different things, and it's all fine. It's genuine diversity which is what I love about our hobby. Very different from the woke version of diversity which is really just fascism masquerading as acceptance. Our community welcomes everybody, I thought the comment about playing with a dad with declining mental facilities was amazing. I've played with people who have ADHD, OCD, and other issues. Everybody at the table was happy to accommodate them and we all had fun. I don't know of any other hobby that's like that.
I just want to say this if anyone wants a 5e sumple osr game basic fantasy its free online for every thing and amazon sell it at cost if u wana physical book
I picked up OD&D/BX because it's more simple and easy to run than 5e. So it's funny that the guy says 5e is more easy to learn. I guess my brain is just wired differently.
DMG has all the hex crawl stuff available. Also has a version of weapon speed factors. A lot of times we forget there are optional rules in the poor ol' DMG. 😀 Flutes Loot, glad you play with your dad, that's awesome. I played 2e when I started, but my Uncle has played WAY more systems. I just ask him if I would like it. 😆
The 5e DMG isn’t my favorite but you’re totally right! Most of the what I read online that people take to message boards to ask about are in there if you look hard enough!
Alot of these points don't make sense and that probably is because many of you lack of experience and knowledge about the systems. The problems about 5e is not the game itself, it's simply that it's hard to find people who want to play the actual game and not just get into a hodgepodge-make-it-up-on-the-spot-improtheater session that never ends. There is no consistency as people tend to not want to put in the time to learn the admittedly somewhat streamlined rules. It's a culture thing, the 5e system is fine. And about adnd, it was for advanced players. The intro system that was originally made for younger and more inexperienced people was dnd b/x which is a hell of alot simpler and more streamlined than 5e and works fine. But still, a super interesting video :)
1e AD&D needed to stay in the oven longer. If you read over all the core rulebooks. Its the reason people are hesitant to play healers. The restrictions on magic-users was lifted, and that is why they dominate modern editions. The complications with numerous "to hit" bonuses caused people to not play with all those rules. This was in part caused, because monsters had magical nekkid armor classes by default. No ability scores. Reach of monster attacks are not given. The unarmed fist attack for players didn't apply to many of the monsters. Each of the core rulebooks had rules for psionics. Its evident that the 1e AD&D is the only edition that included them in the core. This was actually an unpleasant way for the DM to wipe out an entire group. Mind Flayers, greater devils, and type V/VI demons are a joke now compared to 1e AD&D.
In my humble opinion, coming from someone who played it for a while, and who started with 3/3.5 before branching out to Pathfinder and then the OSR. 5E has got to be the most boring and soulless game there is... It's a corporate product first and foremost. But, it's the modern version, it has the marketing, so people will play it. Cool if it brings new players to the hobby who then want to go on and discover new stuff. And if people enjoy it? Well cool for them :) Happy days and all that.
4:40 it’s great he compares osr to old video games because old video game gameplay was better and more difficult and now it’s better graphics and x-Ray vision and map market and fast travel, it’s the perfect analogy as to why osr is great and 5e isn’t
I'll avoid the discussion of complexity and focus on some of the elements I find important. 5e is probably the best laid out, and colorful set made yet. The quality of the material - horrid. I have my original ad&d books, in near mint condition from the 80s. The OSR has some qualities I prefer over the 5e. By OSR, I mean Old School Essentials, Dark Albion, Dungeon Crawl Classics and White Box. There is a real sense of danger in those versions that means you're playing it right - IMHO. 5e has so many buffs, it's hard to die even at 1st Level. Ascending AC is something I've used since the 80s. So is using additional dice as bonuses and penalties. Ex: Instead of 1d20 with a penalty or a raised difficulty, why not use 1d20 - 1d4 and see what that does to your bell curve. It's a matter of how you like to run games. I'd rather you look at the GM and decide how to approach a situation rather than rely on on those fiddly bits on your character sheet. No jump skill needed. Roll vs Dex +/- a difficulty (d4, d6?) penalty or "disadvantage" and you've got that "fluidity" you're talking about. I like to take things from different versions of the game. I like both. I hate backgrounds longer than an index card and I think candle keep & radiant Citadel are crap. Run the Lost temple of Tharizdun and you'll see what I'm on about.
I prefer Osr for the same reason that made 5e king. Simple is better. 5e made things simpler then everything that came before. Now Osr is making a more simple game then 5E. Also more dangerous is more exciting and your character is in far more danger in Osr.
As much as I appreciate the old games, I agree that the books themselves and their organization was *terrible*. Thank god for retro-clones like dark dungeons, OSE, and OSRIC.
Using Thac0 is just simple math, subtracting your Roll from your Thac0 how hard is that. 5E is a character building game that over powers the characters, when there is no chance of death the game becomes boring.
Fred says, "Saving throws never existed [before 5e]." He says he played 2e, 3.5e, PF... and thinks saving throws didn't exist before 5e? What has he been smoking?
Flutes Loot's argument is the epitome of why DnD gets hate as the default RPG and why you should try something else. I'm not here telling him to not a enjoy a game he enjoys but so many get into DnD 5e and have a hard time learning it and so they assume that other games will be just as hard and unfun to learn as DnD and thus never try anything else. But most games are a lot easier to learn. On top of that if you pick the right game, it's much more fun to learn because the mechanics support what you want out of the game. Don't get me wrong DnD is a good game, but it's a horrible catch all game and it's a very specific combination of tactical video gamey combat and skill resolution and it's not easy to learn for beginners. Especially if they play to tell a story instead of trying to win a poorly balanced game of chess with monsters.
Honestly I’ve only ever played more “modern” games, like 3rd edition, Pathfinder, and 5e. That said, I would love to give an OSR game a try. There’s an allure to using rules that are so old and so simplified compared to modern games, and the age of the rules and general philosophy are like a window into the past.
Dam you guys needed to play Old-school essentials before you did this video it's way more easy and you guys I bet house rules 5e already so your not really playing 5e are you? Lol Old school essentials all the way now go play it
we are 6 minutes in, second talker and noone who actually know what a OSR system is. egg.. D&D and Pathfinder 1 are NOT old school systems, they are new school. D&D 5e is more OSR than 3rd and Pathfinder. It didnt seem like Flutes Loot had any idea what he was answering or knew D&D outside 5e enough to give a meaningful answer. He just played that because he knows it and it is "easy" to teach". Yeah, especially compared to 3rd and Path... as they are not old school. old school is AD&D? why do you think it is called revival/renaissance. did you TRY any of the Basic redesigns? I can make chatacters and teach that to five 11 year olds in an hour. glad to you had How to D&D on the show. wow, I got a lot more angry about a couple of people on youtube talking about something they know nothing about. happens so often it should not bother me. I mean, sure it's opinions. but what interest is your opinion about strawberry as a dessert fruit, when you can't tell the difference a strawberry, an orange and a marshmallow and yet adamantly explains it's easy to eat coconut, when you only ever seen ready made pieces in the store....
Most of their criticisms of OSR are about AD&D. B/X or Old School Essentials is easier to learn than 5e. It’s much simpler, especially if you use ascending armor class.
haha for sure, I need to introduce them all to OSE!
That is very true, it was really the formatting and layout of the B/X books that was hard to follow at times.
Completely agree. White box is insainly easy to learn in about 20min of flipping though the book.
So far the first few minutes is this fellow trashing AD&D….I’m wondering if he’s actually played OSR games? Whose “Rosetta Stone” is mostly “B/X”
Then the next fellow goes on about AD&D also and says “I haven’t played OSR”….
There are a *few* AD &D type OSR games…but most of us base the game in B/X…
5e simpler? Class, subclass, feats, proficiences, action, bonus action, etc. "are you flanking" Am i rolling with advantage? compared to Move and do something of BECMI or B/X. pfft
Basic is LESS complicated.
haha i know, i just didnt want to disrupt the flow! I need to run some OSE for these folks!
90%+ of the OSR things that I see commonly referenced and played (DCC, OSE, Knave, Whitehack, Blackhack, etc.) are usually less complex than 5e and SURELY less complex than AD&D 2e. Mostly because they revere and seek to mimic B/X, BECMI, or Rulescyclopedia-era works, not AD&D 2e. So, I don't really understand a lot of the critiques presented here.
haha i need to get these guys to the table, i love showing how awesome and easy osr is!
I just started reading RC and that is not simple! 😅 I came recall exactly which rules and systems were taken from the CM part of BECMI as we didn't use them that much back in the day and then switched to 2nd ed but it looks as though RC is creating new rules to be comprehensive and it seems to me it loses a lot of the charm of the B/X or BE.
The fact that 5e doesn't include rules for dungeons or what the dragon is guarding makes me wonder if it is even the same game.
haha its not the same game!
Hopefully 5.5 D&D it is a new revised edition regardless of marketing claims will include rules for designing dungeon crawls. I think many younger D&D players would enjoy that as well if exposed to it.
Never played AD&D, proceeds to trash AD&D. Also confuses 3.5 with the OSR.
haha everyone had good things to say about OSR content!
I played AD&D second edition, and it was very hard for me to understand. I never played the AD&D 1st edition game which was not the same game.
Thac0 was unintuitive labelling.
The gap between player expectation and the Experience the system delivers has gotten smaller as editions have advanced.
@@crapstirrer I find the THAC0 hate funny. We had no problems with it as kids back in the day.
To me the modern game has dumbed the whole thing down to where there is no mystery to the game mechanics behind the DM screen and players are telling DM's they hit when they roll.
I personally prefer B/X rules over fifth edition, because I find them much easier for everyone to understand. For me they facilitate faster more entertaining play than 5e.
As others have already commented: its a shame that so many 5e players like the individual in this video falsely believe that B/X will be more complex. The aspects they love about 5e are even stronger in modern OSR systems like old school essentials!
i need to run these people through some OSR haha
5e feels like a superhero simulator, I prefer the challenge of low fantasy
My wife is hooked on Old School Essentials after her first run as a 7th level Elf. Mission accomplished!
heck yeah! OSE is fantastic!
Seems like I'm the only 20yo mf that ran a Rules Cyclopedia one-shot and loved it, then ran a 5E one-shot and hated it.
*PS:* My RC one-shot was my first time running a d20 system.
haha one shots can be real hit or miss!
I enjoy exploration the most so i tend to lean heavily to OSR, honestly looking at the early days of 5e the biggest difference is playstyle or gaming philosophy, for instance look at page 25 in the 5e dmg at the advice given on creating the Campaign, the start small section very closely mirrors the advice given by Gary Gygax in the early days of D&D
haha for sure!
I haven't played OSR, but I do look through it to get ideas on how to freak my players out (Level draining) or make them feel epic (followers, minions). So looking back can be very inspirational.
absolutely!
It’s crazy how far off base everyone on this video is. Having almost no understanding of the OSR and trying to compare and decide which is better is pointless.
the OSR is an enigma to us all!
@@NoFunAllowed it’s funny because I pushed back against the OSR for a long time, using some of the same ‘logic’ that your guests used. But once I decided to actually try it for myself I found that the system(s) was exactly what I’ve been looking for.
I’ve played everything with my groups and kids from Paranoia! and PF2e to AD&D and 5e. But now that I’ve been able to introduce them to a bunch of the OSR stuff, when asked what they want to play it is always, without question either OSE or Mörk Borg.
Hi dad
Hello 😂
This was 10 minutes of
I like my bubble 🤣
Like seriously, this was framed like "hey let's have an experienced conversation" and quickly became the opposite.
There are people to play with and it's popular is the worst reason to choose a system
Followed immediately by
I have more important stuff to do
I love both 5E and the OSR. The DIY and zine culture of the OSR has won me over though.
A bit confused by all talk of 3.5, complicated math, and mechanics as issues with OSR rule sets from the two guys that stated their preference towards a modern game though.
haha i need to teach a OSR class to these people!
3.5e is way more complex than 1e/2e. It has a.dozen different categories of bonus, with bonuses from the same category not stacking, but bonuses from distinct categories stacking. You get munchkins manipulating the system to AC 75 and other crazy stuff.
I'm surprised this creates so much discussion. It's really pretty simple, if you want a rules framework that covers most situations and provides more guidance, you go new school. This provides consistency in gameplay and outcome. If you want to make it up as you go along, you want things to vary, and you're comfortable with improvising, then go old school. I think old school provides a more alien environment, one where magic can be more mysterious, and cause and effect are not what you think they are necessarily. But it's just a matter of style really.
I love using old-school adventures with the 5e system. Old-school adventures are easier to read, digest, and can almost be played with zero prep.
i love me some old school adventures!
5e has more in common with B/X than B/X or 5e do with AD&D. Mike Mearls was a fan of B/X and the design of it shows in 5e’s relative simplicity compared to 1-4e
@@rossm7346 it's funny how everyone assumes 3E was this complicated mess.
3rd edition isn't any more complicated than 5e, just more flexible.
Oh, and you need some first grade addition and subtraction now and then. Not a huge bar
@@priestesslucy I mean, alright? 3e isn't that complicated. That has little to do with a discussion where a bunch of people are saying "Oh yeah, the OSR, you mean 3e? Oh yeah mean AD&D 2e?" and they don't know what they are talking about. I was looking at Star Wars D20 (3e inspired) yesterday, looks like a lot of fun! I could see myself playing and running 3e. Real tired of 5e
@@mythicmountainsrpg could you elaborate on exactly what you're sick of in 5E?
My background is 3.P but a lot of people I know are into 5E so I've been digging into it a bit. Definitely not my preference lol
I dont understand why modern is "easier" to learn With AD&D you roll 3D6 for your attributes and roll your hp and youre basically done
i need to run some old school for them haha!
Something I think that I would like about OSR is spellcasters getting less spells and I could hand out spellbook, scroll and spellcasting wands / staffs as loot to make up for it.
who needs cantrips when you get cool wands haha!
What I find interesting though is that if that was the design intent, those things are quite sparse in a lot of modules and even if you leave it to luck using treasure charts. Would be nice if there was more explicit advice to DM's on how to hand them out as well as advice on handing out items that fit other player preferences (such as favored weapons). Not take away all of the randomness which I think is awesome.
At mid- to high levels 1e/2e gets more spell slots because it isn't capped at 4. At 11th level wizard you get 5 or 6, and eventually 9.
My take on this issue stems from my old age (turning 50 next year) and the fact I now play solo. For these two reasons, OSR rules are way more attractive to me than the 5e framework. That is, if your level 1 character does not die during the first encounter 😅
It is a bit weirdly framed. OSR games are modern systems. Some are full retroclones, better written and organised versions with rules unchanged from OD&D, AD&D1E and AD&D 2E. The changes they made in the rest of the OSR are definitely informed by modern game design. Also, it is not modern systems, but maybe an implication of D&D 5E specifically I think most people assumed. I grew up on AD&D 1E and I would rather play a modern system in a heartbeat if I got to pick it but if it was OSR vs random choice of modern system or OSR vs D&D 5E I would much rather pick the OSR. A clearer dichotomy would be, would you rather play 20th century D&D or 5E?
we had discussed before, and they knew i mean modern as 5e and pathfinder, where as OSR
is retroclones
@@NoFunAllowed That was the sense I got. Anyway, it was a different discussion from what I anticipated from the title but a perfectly good watch nonetheless. :)
“I’ve never actually played OSR games, but I played those Baldur’s Gate 2E games from the 90’s so, that’s why I think modern games are better.” Oof
My first GM “hated D&D” and we only played narrative games like “FATE”…that was 2015 and he thought D&D was just still AD&D.
Yeah I went through that, and it held me back from the revelation that is OSR (not at all AD&D). This is why we should all keep an open mind and be willing to try different games a few times.
Also @no fun allowed, you should do an OSE one shot for these folks so they can experience the OSR, and help clear up their misconceptions. Something like “Winters Daughter”
I know I need to run these people through some old school stuff haha! I'll try setting it up!
By all means, play the game you enjoy.
But please don't keep saying that one game is "better".
It's a matter of personal taste. Games come in different flavors because not all who play desire the same experience. Enjoy and celebrate the diversity!
haha for sure! to each gaming style their own!
I definitely wouldn't say 5e is better having had wrinkles in love with it for years and having transitioned to OSR within the last year. There is an evolution though, like in ascending AC (I know it's a cliche), attempting to give all character classes a certain efficiency in combat, clear action economy, letting characters advance (more) evenly in levels etc.
I know some of these things aren't just simply better in newer editions and there are reasons to enjoy the old ways, but they are generally a more honed designed.
Osric is better organized than 5E.
Hero's Journey has better magic.
Pathfinder 2E is vastly more interesting to play, and easier to run than 5E.
Hyperborea has more atmosphere.
Old School Essentials is more elegant.
Dungeon World is revolutionary.
Please don't think that 5E is the pinnacle of the form. The corporate demands on it have warped the game considerably.
I know that PF2E and Dungeon World aren't OSR. I am just saying that horizons are broader than you may know if you haven't looked outside Hasbro's walled garden.
Flute's loot: "5th ed is malleable" and "5th ed is simple". I wonder if he needs to think to breathe.
It really just comes down to what kind of game you want to play. OSR is sword and socery, low fantasy and 5e is high fantasy. In my opinion 5e wanted to capture the openeded nature of OSR by making it a rules light game but with modern sensibilities and they did a great job. People need to realize that just about any system can be what they want it to be. The stove anaology works well. The stove isn't the food but can help you cook whatever dish you desire.
5E is Marvel Superhéroes in a pseudo medieval fantasy enviroment. No Swords and Sorcery, no low Fantasy, even Epic Fantasy like Dragonlance can't be played with 5E (Raistlin didn't have infinite cantrips, neither Goldmoon, etc).
OSR games are much easier to play than 5E or Rail Road Finder, while being more complete.
And remember OSE, Hyperborea, OSRIC, Swords & Wizardry, AD&D, DCC, etc, are all Dungeons & Dragons while 5E, 4E, Rail Road Finder and even 3.5, are not Dungeons and Dragons, not even close.
I like the guy with the hat's perspective.... There really is no divide.. That's how I play.. I love the lore....that exists throughout the ages and editions.
I use 5e core. Roll d20 vs DC. Advantage/disadvantage... But I go osr for flavor
heck yeah!
Thank you Chris. It's all about just playing the game .
Mat Mercer+pandemic+tech+d&d e1 = massive popularity. Yes 5e accessibility helps, but it has exploded because of situations that didn't exist when first edition came out. I think they are all great and are only limited by the dm.
for sure!
D&d e1?
@@priestesslucy @Priestess Lucy sort of, I started playing basic d&d, then they added to it and became expert edition. Then they came out with Advanced D&D. These were all mostly the same which collectively I call first edition. Then they came out with second edition. All of these editions just built on each other, but they were very similar. 2nd edition was were all the skills and specializations came into the game.
@@archersfriend5900 oh, I get you.
The 'e1' nomenclature isn't something I've seen anywhere before.
Most people call the Holmes > Moldvay > Mentzer stuff Basic DnD to distinguish it from OD&D/White Box and AD&D (which got numbered editions.)
@@priestesslucy lol, I loved the older editions. I love 5th edition for some of the mechanics, but it is a way different game for the dm than the earlier editions. Most of my gripes with 5e are from the dm side.
It makes me cry everytime a millennial discovers what came before is superior to what they have now.
OSR for sure. And B/X - OSE and many current retroclones, like Swords & Wizardry, are much simpler than 5e. There are even a bunch of more original OSR stuff like Knave, Cairn, Into the Odd which are even more minimalist. So I totally disagree with the "5e is simple" argument, although I wholly respect everyone who prefer the modern style of game
A lot of these guys have obviously never even read the OSR games books, much less played them. Their critiques literally MAKE NO SENSE to anyone who has read and played those games. I can get a whole party of OSR characters ready from scratch in less than ten minutes. I challenge anyone to get a whole table of 3-5th edition characters ready in that time frame. The BEST new materials for RPG games (modules and adventures mostly) are currently being produced for the OSR only as 5th and Pathfinder are tortuous and un-fun to make high level or even mid-level dungeons for due to all the crazy and complicated monster and character options and special attacks at those levels. Just look at the modules Necrotic Gnome has produced.......any one of them easily stands toe to toe with the most highly rated modules of yesteryear in design, concept and fun and have the bonus that player's haven't adventured through them thousands of times over the years so you get fresh surprises and plot twists. These guys need to play Old School Essentials or Dungeon Crawl Classics, their tunes would change REAL quick as they realize how wrong they have been. If you have only played "modern" games then you don't even know the conceptual prison you are trapped in. It's like someone forced into Veganism by their parents convinced that Meat tastes terrible. Give them a slice of bacon, and their lives will change overnight. Don't live in a bubble......get out and try new things, even if those things are old.
I need to run some games for these folks!
I played every edition from white box except B/X. I agree with most of these critiques. I was not a fan of D&D until 3.x. I was always pushing for other games. While I don't care for 5 as much as 3.5 I do see improvements in modern games.
I'm learning the BECMI system right now. I was really hoping that I'd be able to use this system with my 5e adventures, like Strixhaven. It sounds like I will be able to. That's exciting.
I like both systems. But I think my preference would be a combination of the two.
I love playing 5th Edition but absolutely also enjoy the options and wide variety and ease of play in the many options of the OSR. For example, Basic Fantasy is fantastic and fun and has a good community, and its entry point is 100% free with PDFs or printed rulebook quality in print form on Amazon for $5.00. I also enjoy OSRIC AD&D 1st edition for the modern age is great also "Whitebox" is another great one. There are also so many more I could mention but I think you can play both 5th and love it and also love the OSR. I would in the future like to see you do a video on several of the OSR editions out there we all grow when we share.
Heck yeah!
I dont like 5e much. OSR, specifically Old School Essentials is much more my style of game.
i love me some OSE!
How do you like them 5E apples now
They always tasted a bit flavourless to me
I think every edition of d&d has its own merits and its own flaws. As for the broader question of osr vs modern, I'd say I prefer OSR for the reason you said above. It's nice to be individually powerful like in 5e, but being an osr fighter leading a small mercenary army is just way cooler.
I like modern design in game mechanics but I prefer old school design in adventures and settings. I think that it was a good thing modern designers make beginning characters less fragile than they were in the old days, but that does tend to take some of the danger and excitement out of the adventures.
I really love your take, No Fun! That's one of the reasons I love it as well when I DM. However, when I "play" with my kids and my wife runs us, I gladly play and have fun with whatever they wanna play and she wants to run. 🙂
thank you and awesome stuff!
I taught my niece to play BECMI style game, though unfortunately had to use the Rule Cyclopedia since the basic set isn't available in reprint. The RC is a bit dense including four box set plus some extra stuff. Still, its the system I know and to me 5e looks so much more complicated (when compared to the basic and expert level material, more so compared to the starting material in the basic set).
5e has a lot to it for sure!
Cool vid! Well done gentlemen!
My best friend’s uncle handed down all his 70’s and earliest 80’s material to us kids. We didn’t know what we were doing! We were using anything and everything. Basic, Advanced, older stuff, other games, made up rules….
It was a chaotic blast.
When 2nd addition came about we mainly played that rule set. That would be the old school version I would go back to.
But I think 5e has grown on me quite severely. I think I’m a better dm with the 5e game than with the old school madness.
Im torn in two and can’t decide!!!! Though, like Flutes, it’s easier for us to get a 5e game going than an os game.
haha for sure!
Hyperborea does Thac0. Love it.
I play both styles but have been mostly doing OSR. Older gamer...seems to be the trend. Game of choice is Dragonslayer by greg gillespie.
5e definitely for new ..younger players though. 5e is way more forgiving.
Heh
I learned from the original Monster Manuel OSR
The book from Gary Gygax..
TSR Hobbies..
And Advanced D&D
I never played the 5th edition before and these plastic figures were shocking to me..
When we played the real dnd figures were few and far apart.
It was almost all pewter..
When we played we had a dungeon master some dice a couple figures a pencil and a piece of graph paper.
And our charachter sheets.
And a lot of imagination..
Ha ha ha ha ha
Like i said i havent played 5th edition yet but my favorite thing about it is that the Monster Manuel matches the figures..
Even if they arw plastic..
I am just glad they arw available and the hobbie is flourishing..
Great Question amd guests
Thanx
thank you!
I started wtih ADND 1st edition back in 1980. Having looked through 5e, i immediately turned to OSE and blended rules from there and ADND 1st edition. 5e, for me is bloated with modifiers to make players roll a die to change their shorts. The focus, to me, seems to be on making the characters similar to video game characters where they are almost invincible and can come back to life at any time if they happen to die, which hardly ever happens in 5e that i can tell. Theater of the mind is few and far between with regards to actual game play. From watching Critical Role i can see that 5e DMs are the whole show, PCs don't get involved with descriptive actions or narrative as much as in OSE type gaming. Now i do like some of the aspects of 5e, such as the use of investigation and perception, mind you ive adapted that to ADND rules. What it boils down to is play the version you are happy with. Or blend the guidelines from all versions into your own. For me that is what DND is meant to be, your imagination fueled by input from whatever source material you find fun. ROLL ON!!
Some one should tell the bottom left guy that 3.5 is a modern system... OSR will always be better
haha i need to run and teach all these people OSR!
It always impresses me when I watch these discussions, the vast majority of D&D players happily agree or disagree, like different things, and it's all fine. It's genuine diversity which is what I love about our hobby. Very different from the woke version of diversity which is really just fascism masquerading as acceptance. Our community welcomes everybody, I thought the comment about playing with a dad with declining mental facilities was amazing. I've played with people who have ADHD, OCD, and other issues. Everybody at the table was happy to accommodate them and we all had fun. I don't know of any other hobby that's like that.
I just want to say this if anyone wants a 5e sumple osr game basic fantasy its free online for every thing and amazon sell it at cost if u wana physical book
for sure, its a great resource!
Thank you for having me on the channel Trevor. A fun discussion.
haha heck yeah!
I hope you bundles of delightful energy keep doing these vids! I really enjoy them. Thx!
I picked up OD&D/BX because it's more simple and easy to run than 5e. So it's funny that the guy says 5e is more easy to learn. I guess my brain is just wired differently.
DMG has all the hex crawl stuff available.
Also has a version of weapon speed factors.
A lot of times we forget there are optional rules in the poor ol' DMG. 😀
Flutes Loot, glad you play with your dad, that's awesome. I played 2e when I started, but my Uncle has played WAY more systems. I just ask him if I would like it. 😆
haha people only look at the pictures in the DMG!
@@NoFunAllowed ain't that the truth!
The 5e DMG isn’t my favorite but you’re totally right! Most of the what I read online that people take to message boards to ask about are in there if you look hard enough!
Alot of these points don't make sense and that probably is because many of you lack of experience and knowledge about the systems. The problems about 5e is not the game itself, it's simply that it's hard to find people who want to play the actual game and not just get into a hodgepodge-make-it-up-on-the-spot-improtheater session that never ends. There is no consistency as people tend to not want to put in the time to learn the admittedly somewhat streamlined rules. It's a culture thing, the 5e system is fine.
And about adnd, it was for advanced players. The intro system that was originally made for younger and more inexperienced people was dnd b/x which is a hell of alot simpler and more streamlined than 5e and works fine.
But still, a super interesting video :)
1e AD&D needed to stay in the oven longer. If you read over all the core rulebooks. Its the reason people are hesitant to play healers. The restrictions on magic-users was lifted, and that is why they dominate modern editions.
The complications with numerous "to hit" bonuses caused people to not play with all those rules. This was in part caused, because monsters had magical nekkid armor classes by default. No ability scores. Reach of monster attacks are not given. The unarmed fist attack for players didn't apply to many of the monsters.
Each of the core rulebooks had rules for psionics. Its evident that the 1e AD&D is the only edition that included them in the core. This was actually an unpleasant way for the DM to wipe out an entire group. Mind Flayers, greater devils, and type V/VI demons are a joke now compared to 1e AD&D.
THAC0 or Descending AC is better than Ascending AC.
Also Moldvay Basic/Expert is objectively the best edition of D&D.
I just bought Old school essentials, OSRIC, and for gold and glory so…
In my humble opinion, coming from someone who played it for a while, and who started with 3/3.5 before branching out to Pathfinder and then the OSR. 5E has got to be the most boring and soulless game there is... It's a corporate product first and foremost. But, it's the modern version, it has the marketing, so people will play it. Cool if it brings new players to the hobby who then want to go on and discover new stuff. And if people enjoy it? Well cool for them :) Happy days and all that.
heck yeah!
3e wouldn’t even really be considered OSR really
4:40 it’s great he compares osr to old video games because old video game gameplay was better and more difficult and now it’s better graphics and x-Ray vision and map market and fast travel, it’s the perfect analogy as to why osr is great and 5e isn’t
5:41 another great difference analogy, BG1&2 didn’t have bear sex and all the other over-sexualization of BG3
I'll avoid the discussion of complexity and focus on some of the elements I find important. 5e is probably the best laid out, and colorful set made yet. The quality of the material - horrid. I have my original ad&d books, in near mint condition from the 80s. The OSR has some qualities I prefer over the 5e. By OSR, I mean Old School Essentials, Dark Albion, Dungeon Crawl Classics and White Box. There is a real sense of danger in those versions that means you're playing it right - IMHO. 5e has so many buffs, it's hard to die even at 1st Level. Ascending AC is something I've used since the 80s. So is using additional dice as bonuses and penalties. Ex: Instead of 1d20 with a penalty or a raised difficulty, why not use 1d20 - 1d4 and see what that does to your bell curve. It's a matter of how you like to run games. I'd rather you look at the GM and decide how to approach a situation rather than rely on on those fiddly bits on your character sheet. No jump skill needed. Roll vs Dex +/- a difficulty (d4, d6?) penalty or "disadvantage" and you've got that "fluidity" you're talking about. I like to take things from different versions of the game. I like both. I hate backgrounds longer than an index card and I think candle keep & radiant Citadel are crap. Run the Lost temple of Tharizdun and you'll see what I'm on about.
Haha fair fair!
I prefer Osr for the same reason that made 5e king. Simple is better. 5e made things simpler then everything that came before. Now Osr is making a more simple game then 5E. Also more dangerous is more exciting and your character is in far more danger in Osr.
As much as I appreciate the old games, I agree that the books themselves and their organization was *terrible*. Thank god for retro-clones like dark dungeons, OSE, and OSRIC.
Using Thac0 is just simple math, subtracting your Roll from your Thac0 how hard is that. 5E is a character building game that over powers the characters, when there is no chance of death the game becomes boring.
haha ive slain many a poor 5e pc!
How is 1st edition complicated?
It really shows that you haven’t played OSR games. They’re comparing 5e to 3.5, Pathfinder 1st, and AD&D. That’s not OSR!
Fred says, "Saving throws never existed [before 5e]."
He says he played 2e, 3.5e, PF... and thinks saving throws didn't exist before 5e?
What has he been smoking?
In preparation for Shadowdark, I have been exploring more videos on OSR and Modern difference and opinions. Thank you.
Oh man would I love it if Shadowdark became the hot new RPG flavor.
Thac0 forever genius
3.5 is not an old school game.
AD&D rules.
Got into D&D with baldur's gate 1 and baldur's gate 2. 😂 GATEWAY DRUGS!!!
Flutes Loot's argument is the epitome of why DnD gets hate as the default RPG and why you should try something else. I'm not here telling him to not a enjoy a game he enjoys but so many get into DnD 5e and have a hard time learning it and so they assume that other games will be just as hard and unfun to learn as DnD and thus never try anything else. But most games are a lot easier to learn. On top of that if you pick the right game, it's much more fun to learn because the mechanics support what you want out of the game.
Don't get me wrong DnD is a good game, but it's a horrible catch all game and it's a very specific combination of tactical video gamey combat and skill resolution and it's not easy to learn for beginners. Especially if they play to tell a story instead of trying to win a poorly balanced game of chess with monsters.
4:20 "inferior philosophy of design"?
Alright. Nothing Bottom-Right says matters. Very clearly an old = bad mentality.
Honestly I’ve only ever played more “modern” games, like 3rd edition, Pathfinder, and 5e. That said, I would love to give an OSR game a try. There’s an allure to using rules that are so old and so simplified compared to modern games, and the age of the rules and general philosophy are like a window into the past.
It's a blast!
> B/X was more complicated than 5E
Yeah, horseshit.
Bad news for these guys but WotC is going to deprecate 5e soon.
Dam you guys needed to play Old-school essentials before you did this video it's way more easy and you guys I bet house rules 5e already so your not really playing 5e are you? Lol Old school essentials all the way now go play it
i need to run some OSE for these folks haha!
@@NoFunAllowed and then do a video on how it went lol
Neither is better the are different games
we are 6 minutes in, second talker and noone who actually know what a OSR system is.
egg.. D&D and Pathfinder 1 are NOT old school systems, they are new school.
D&D 5e is more OSR than 3rd and Pathfinder.
It didnt seem like Flutes Loot had any idea what he was answering or knew D&D outside 5e enough to give a meaningful answer. He just played that because he knows it and it is "easy" to teach". Yeah, especially compared to 3rd and Path... as they are not old school. old school is AD&D? why do you think it is called revival/renaissance. did you TRY any of the Basic redesigns? I can make chatacters and teach that to five 11 year olds in an hour.
glad to you had How to D&D on the show.
wow, I got a lot more angry about a couple of people on youtube talking about something they know nothing about. happens so often it should not bother me.
I mean, sure it's opinions. but what interest is your opinion about strawberry as a dessert fruit, when you can't tell the difference a strawberry, an orange and a marshmallow and yet adamantly explains it's easy to eat coconut, when you only ever seen ready made pieces in the store....
i need to run some OSR for these folks haha
@@NoFunAllowed YES.... throw some MÖRK BORG