This Mac Pro killer runs a GPU-and Windows on Arm!
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- Опубліковано 21 кві 2023
- Special thanks to the team at Ampere for making this happen!
Disclaimer: The kind folks at Ampere and ADLINK sent me the Ampere Altra Developer Platform, but offered no other form of compensation for this video, and had no input into the contents, nor did they see it before it was published on UA-cam. See my sponsorship policies here: github.com/geerlingguy/youtube#sponsorships
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Mentioned in this video:
- Ampere Altra Dev Kit: www.ipi.wiki/products/com-hpc-ampere-altra
- Ampere Altra Developer Platform: www.ipi.wiki/pages/ampere-altra-developer-platform
- Top500 Benchmark (open source): github.com/geerlingguy/top500-benchmark
- I tested EVERY GRAPHICS CARD on a Raspberry Pi: ua-cam.com/video/l9dItRUjQ0k/v-deo.html
- Cloudbase article on Windows support: cloudbase.it/ampere-altra-industry-leading-arm64-server/
- DB Tech (thanks for the help!): ua-cam.com/users/dbtechyt
#Arm
Contents:
00:00 - What the Mac Pro COULD be
01:17 - What if...?
02:54 - A peek at the hardware
04:17 - This System is Ready (for any Linux)
04:47 - Benchmarks and Arm efficiency
07:58 - Windows on Arm (on Ampere)?
10:39 - What about graphics cards? - Наука та технологія
really interesting to see some competition to x86 on the desktop :D
I am still waiting for ARM not only be more efficient but also as fast as current high end x86 CPUs. I don't believe it can live up to the hype, yet. With increased performance the efficiency will go down and Ryzen 7000 has shown that there also is room for improvement on the x86 side.. in the end the difference might be marginal and then the major point for decision will be the vastly better situation of existing OSses and software for x86. And the supposed advatnage of smaller and more cores is a very specific thing, whcih IMHO is already exaggerated in it's relevance, when speaking of 'general workstation usage' (despite workstating of course already bering veery specific in itself). As even most 'work related' software just can't make of of many cores.
apparently intel might make hybrid x86+arm cpus iifc
Is it time for an OpenCores/RISC-V update?
@@found13 ba-dum tsss!
@@luisortega8085 says who ?
Seeing Tux Kart run that slowly makes me wonder what a software renderer written to utilize this many cores could do.
I believe Crisis can, going by an LTT video reviewing a Threadripper chip.
hahahahah LOL
Is that why it performs like a raspberry pi zero?
I hope these beefy arm processors go mainstream, this is exactly what we, homelab enthusiasts, need but cheaper
Hopefully in a couple years some of these systems start coming up used for a good discount!
Hope it'll be the open RISC V and not the proprietary ARM
...and Windows will finaly dei.
Asahi Linux and Lenovo x13 porting is getting the first steps towards full arm functionality for Linux and Windows even though I Microsoft executive team is the devil in some ways.
@@RustedCroakerI mean it’s not like those things matter for users. I do hope RISCV wins out in the end for that reason, but open-source ISAs are good for smaller designers and manufacturers primarily
Some nostalgia from your commentary, boy do I miss the 2009 Mac Pro. Also, I think my first time building a kernel was around 1998 and was either a Pentium 1 or a 486. Hearing "2 minutes" for a kernel build was crazy.
Kernel was a lot smaller back then too!
The craziest bit is that if you have seen the L1Techs content, Wendell is getting under 2 minutes for the allmods compile. I think they're under 20s for just the kernel these days.
@@Jakdaw Right - as a matter of a fact, I believe we talked about a size much smaller than current being unimaginably large.
Sort of the Linux version of "No one will ever need more than 64k of ram".
why would you miss overpriced crap?🤣🤣🤣 because that's is all what apple does
@@Spectru91 Come on, I know they make overpriced, unrepairable, proprietary, locked hardware, which I hate, but they also have some things going for them. You cant's deny their computers just look pretty and the higher end models are quite powerful. My A1398 late 2012 MBP has better specs than my 2015 Asus
Wow! What an amazing system Jeff!!
When you're into hardware like this, you're in rarified air and you have to figure things out for yourself. Interesting how Linux just loads and boots up and runs perfectly on this.
Linux is great!
Agreed, I love how Linux runs on practically everything, and is always first to come to new architectures like RISC-V
@@JeffGeerling i think what RISC-V. really needs is a new wine/proton port update for running x86 programs.
Before i heard about RISC-V, i knew OpenRISC as a similar architecture, yet never seen a board on it. if they even exist, can you make a video about it?
@@parad0xheart i know that a concept like this doesn't sound that practical, however i believe that if done properly, it can make the RV64 architecture more viable. The problem though is what you've exactly mentioned. Indeed it can be a difficult task, but in theory, it shouldn't be impossible to initiate a project like this; as well as attracting more needed demand for RISC-V
You do a great job wasting your time on trial-and-error using the same methods that most of us would do at 3am. Now I get to experience the disappointing result and still get sleep. Thanks Jeff!
Microsoft actually did make the arm build for windows more publicly available recently. This is part of their own in house arm dev kit being pushed out.
Where can you easily download the iso?
@MD-wf8rn That's not "More easily available" tho, uup dump was always available
This is becoming “the intrusive thoughts won” channel and I love it.
I just wanna see Jeff power trough the win installation 😅. He found a working graphics card for the pi after years, he can definitely run windows on the ampere 😊
While maybe a fun challenge it would be basically just for giggles.
The software support on WoA is basically non-existant while linux has been there for over a decade (thanks to the pi et al)
I'm pretty sure Microsoft makes an ARM-version of Windows. Why anyone would torture once self with that is beyond me. 😀
@@Liqtor Of course they do. Windows 11 has an ARM64 version.
Finally, been waiting for so long for someone to make this video! Nice job as always Jeff
It's nice seeing crazy machines like this, there are so many ways to do things and I can see how this kind of architecture could be so useful. Also, Rocky Linux is great (that's what I'm running). This channel is where you can see stuff other than what you see all the time.
supports rocky
Good work, Jeff. What a wonderful machine they gave you to test. Hope you are well and all the best to family who help these great vlog.
Just got this recommended to me 15 seconds after it came out
Someday we'll whittle that down to 5 seconds! Maybe if UA-cam switches to Ampere servers ;)
Hit the bell icon to get it recommended everytime!😊
It could be, but we know it won't be modular. Lmao
Trash can Mac 2.0?
But more seriously... I still hope Apple doesn't abandon the workstation market again. They've always had compelling (if a bit exotic) hardware on the high end!
@@JeffGeerling It'll be Trash Can 2.0. Because that's the nature of Apple Silicon. The Mac Studio basically fills that niche right now and it's faster than the Intel Mac pro. I think it will just be a bigger Mac Studio
I don’t really see the point. The benefits of PC add nothing to Mac. They could just stick an M2 Max in the Mini and you can get whatever you probably wanted from a Mac Pro and the Studio is a flop. Anything a true Mac Pro would offer, you’d just use a PC or a Linux machine for.
@@MarcoGPUtuber Mac studio can be tackled by other hardware. ( I think you're referring to the new arm stuff )
I thought efficiency was better.. but undervolt any new hardware and you'd get pretty close efficiency.
Thought software was better, make a Macintosh.
No modularity and proprietary everything is the benefit of mac.
@@yasirrakhurrafat1142 Lmao. It's the greatest weakness
This is pretty cool. It would be great if something like Proxmox would add official support for a setup like this. Even 24 or 48 cores would make a worthwhile machine in this kind of setup.
Hopefully this is just the beginning of the Arm workstation era!
kickass homeservers with this kinda chip would be amazing. :)
Hopeful we will start seeing some more power efficient ARM desktops in the future!
I hope to see more RISC-V and there are already some dev boards.
And a functional Graphics card driver for Linux+ARM
@@kirle5455 there’s a RISC V tablet now
Tv box with amlogic😂
@@kirle5455
There are plenty of risc v in China, but of course the use experience is awful.
Thanks Jeff, really appreciating what you did, can't wait to see more competition / review in future videos.
Fascinating video Jeff. Not surprised you can't get windows working, it's windows being, well windows. Nice to see Arm systems coming along leaps and pounds with the possibility of giving the desktop some competition. Glad to see you looking so well.
Great to see you finally got your hands on an Ampere.
wow jeff just stumbled across your channel and glad i did i love the short but very informative and VERY INTERESTING cant wait to see more
Your patience and perseverance is unmatched. Thanks for the videos.
I saw that kernel build time and spewed my coffee.
I am buying one of these as soon as I can afford it.
Certainly better than the 45 minutes of the Raspberry Pi 4!
Jeff: This is what the next Mac Pro COULD be
ME: was expecting to see a ARM hackintosh mate
Looking forward to seeing more of this dude! :D Keep at it
Great video!
I was so excited for this video!
Same here! I was thinking of waiting until I had more time to get Windows up and running, but I decided I'd post this video now, then an update on Windows and graphics card support later (maybe late May, after I get a lot more time to test!).
@@JeffGeerling yeah Glad you did, just the hardware alone is fascinating
This makes me happy to see adoption of arm for desktop and server. I'm running Fedora Asahi on my M1 and it's improving with each update but still has far to go .
Thanks for reminding me to redownload my Matrix screensaver! That is a really cool system, I am really excited to see what is happening in the world of ARM right now. This is a really interesting and appealing system. Keep up the great work, Jeff!
Wow! I look forward to more on this ARM desktop (in a tower case…strong nostalgia for those). Your very NEXT episode is bound to be a real winner and a revealing watch! Above all, though…take good care of your health. Aloha!❤
I look forward to hearing about your GPU experiences but it would also be interesting to probe your software rendering results. Perhaps trying both SwiftShader and Lavapipe and making sure they are configured to use 90+ cores and have SIMD enabled for their ARM compiles. There should be the grunt to push some pixels in a simple game like tuxkart without a separate GPU.
I almost fell out of my chair, laughing when I heard the crack about Apple couldn’t justify charging an additional $700 for optional casters! Good one!
They also were charging $1,000 for a stand for their display that already cost $5,000
Very cool. love seeing this type of content!
Thank you! This totally made me rethink my future homelab VM server.
Jeff, have you tried to install a hypervisor (like Xen) and install windows as a guest? Windows installer might be freaking with some option missing in the BIOS (like TPM) and the hypervisor might give a chance to emulate that.
might try that later.
or Proxmox :p
The errors are ACPI errors. Arm doesn't usually have ACPI so a VM might help there too
Linux already includes hypervisor functionality (KVM). This integrates with QEMU, too.
If you have a volume licensing agreement, you can get the release ISOs for Windows 10/11 for arm64. I uh... have those if you want them. I've used them to install Windows 11 on my Galaxy Book Go. Fun thing is that I had to pull drivers from the built in recovery wim that was preinstalled on the machine, and copy them to the installer/boot wim in the ISO. Without adding the drivers my Galaxy Book Go doesn't have functional USB/Keyboard/Trackpad for installation. Even better is that Samsung doesn't provide any way to do an ACTUAL fresh install. Definitely not the experience you get with x86.
I have an ISO to test... we shall see!
Volume licensing agreements also mean agreeing to audits, don’t they, to ensure you’re not misusing the licence.
@@lawrencedoliveiro9104 Am I misusing it by installing it on my Galaxy Book Go with the inherited “digital license”? They don’t provide the iso because it literally won’t work on most ARM devices without shoehorning drivers into the boot/install WIMs. If you install it but don’t activate it, my understanding is that you’re not actually violating any terms.
@@JosephHalder Copying the software is still subject to copyright.
@@lawrencedoliveiro9104 Is the license different for x64 and arm64… serious question. Because they allow you to copy the x64 iso. I think once UEFI implementation and ServerReady become normal on Arm, they’ll likely just provide it just like x64.
That is awesome!! Great video, I would love this as my next desktop. I usually build my own x86 machines, and the cost will hurt but seems so worth it!
I appreciate the use of Ubuntu even while wearing a Rocky Linux Early Support t-shirt.
The best machine to compile the entire Pi kernel
And enough room to run a whole cluster of Pis inside!
Finally! This is the sort of machine I’ve been hoping for. I hope the graphics card situation can be worked out and I hope a consumer grade variant can be produced at a lower cost. I really think ARM is the near future of computers and I think seeing a desktop form factor with reasonable expandability (and graphics compatibility) will be useful and important to convincing the consumer market to give it a try. Apple’s locked down hardware is off putting to a large demographic, but this just leaves software support as the remaining pain point, imo
Damn Jeff amazing work on this video. Love seeing stuff like this. This should be a 10M view video.
Thanks for the video!!!
An interesting test I've always wanted to do on a high end arm, run qemu x86 Linux user mode emulation running windows binaries through wine... I think it would be interesting to see how well the multi core architecture of this runs older games, like just for science... Like how does the software renderer for ut2004 look when ran through x86 emulation on this monstrously fast (compared to what it was when the game was written) computer.
I just noticed I got quite a number of likes and ol' jeff himself gave it a seal of approval....
*crosses fingers* ... I hope to see this happen :D
Just love your videos and your dedication to make things work. People like you are the reason why OpenSource will keep making sense.
This really is a desktop workstation... it's my favorite machine ever since my laptops burned out with heat... I love workstations for their great performance and small size... Hello in Brazil
Awesome video!!
So cool. Will be so nice if someone starts a hackintosh project for arm CPUs haha
The prospect of running Linux on ARM-based devices beyond the scope of low-powered single board computers is truly fascinating. If you happen to have the time / energy & know someone at Lenovo that could send you a unit, it would be interesting to see if you could explore the possibility of installing Linux on the Lenovo IdeaPad 4G ARM64 Snapdragon 8c.
I have personally attempted to live boot various Linux distributions, such as Ubuntu and Debian, on this device. However, I continually encounter an issue where the laptop simply reboots a few seconds after selecting the "try/install Ubuntu" option from the Live ARM64 Ubuntu USB grub menu.
This Lenovo Snapdragon laptop battery life is insane on Windows 11, but the device lacks the memory (8GB only) to do much with it beyond browsing, Office 365, and youtube / Netflix streaming.
The lenovo should be pretty close performance-wise to the Windows Dev Kit 2023
I've actually got a Samsung Galaxy Book Go 5G which runs the Snapdragon 8cx Gen2 platform. As I understand it, the Linux kernel simply doesn't have support for it. Linux kernel 6.3 adds support for Snapdragon 8 Gen 2, but that is different from 8cx or the compute platforms. I REALLY want to run Linux on it. But the kernel support is not there yet.
@@JeffGeerling All that generation of devices including the surface and the devkit are basically the same thing give or take some memory and storage choices.
GPU drivers not there either.
Amazing!! Thank you.
Jeff is amazing, I don't know of many people who are determined to make something work the way he does. Part 2 is going to be very interesting!
This is sick! The 96 cores, BMC, very excited to see where ARM goes
I'd use it for virtualization and multitasking such as video rendering while gaming, watching a movie, etc. The opportunity is endless. It's a shame there's just lack of resources for that ARM chip to make it run its full potential
This looks amazing and I wish I could get my hands on one. With Apple's increasingly terrible record when it comes to right to repair, I think tech-savvy people should make an consious effort to move away from them on to more open platforms ASAP. I would really love to see a machine like this running a RISC-V system in the near future.
Love the video! love that machine!
Nothing says it better that you have made it on UA-cam when companies starts sending you such expensive machines for review and tinkering :)
and I sent it to him to keep😁
Will you be trying anything with RISC-V at all? It would be interesting to see how easy (or not) it would be to build something like this with RISC V.
Right now there's not a lot of RISC-V 64 bit systems out there for end users - and none with the kind of PCIe connectivity datacenter / workstation systems require.
@@jnelson4765 Well someone with the technical know how could make such a system (the necessary extensions to RISC V architecture to make it possible) and could contact services like Europractice MOSIS(who offer middle man services where they help companies , tech faculties of universities and governments share the cost of semiconductor manufacturing by getting chips made from the same silicon wafers) to have semiconductor prototypes manufactured by foundries (TSMC, Intel , samsung ect) and have a complete computer system made by companies like compal , quanta computer and foxconn.
With enough funding it's possible
It's a shame that getting GPUs working on ARM based systems seems to affect everything from SBCs to this machine. It's odd to me that so many cloud providers are switching ARM based systems, with at least some of them including GPUs I'd assume, yet it's still an issue. Comes across to me as another instance of them taking from the FOSS community but not wanting to give anything back. .
It’s a dark ESG power grab. All started with UN MIT ONE LAPTOP PRR CHILD PROJECT
this culminates in ARM launching fake pi 10 dollar SBc . This then inflated to 100 -200 dollar end user systems , ESG taxes on higher nd systems so the always on internet mainframe server model dubbed cloud servicing model with special license permit to use internet or host your own websites
It looks so amazing ❤
Cool machine but I'm just not excited for arm cores at the desktop at this time. This is probably because I've only used raspberry pis or cloud based servers with arm, and I'm hard pressed to pay the prices Apple wants for a Mac mini when I already have a first gen Epyc 24 core server and a 3900X desktop. I'll eventually get around to it as I like efficiency but I really like the native backwards compatability of x86 too.
Yeah wtf is up with windows downloads being so slow!?
Thanks for these videos Jeff, you bring the inner geek out of me and I love your raspberry pi videos, wanna get into developing a cluster one day
Amazing progress in arm chips
Would love to see what Box86/64 could do on this machine.
Its a translation layer real time compiling the best way is to run it directly from source through real-time compilation
They could make L1 level RAM integrated with CPU and L2 level RAM which would be on a slot so it would be upgradable. CPU would use primarily L1 RAM but could always access bigger but slower L2 RAM.
Upgradability? No way!
@@Demopans5990 idk why I read this and heard “with the frizz? no way!”
@@dlanm2u
My headcanon is that the Frizz is Arnold's time travelling granddaughter
This is awesome!!
Regardless of MacOS, I think that’s a very, very nice hardware solution. Pros don’t need the Apple UI to do great things.
My dedicated C++ laptop runs Linux (Ubuntu 22.04 LTS). Though it’s an x86-64 CPU (i7-12700H).
My experience overall with Linux has been fun and a *lot* of learning about computing in general. As I’m searching for a junior backend dev job in Java it’s going to be useful I suspect.
Apple could do this, but it would start at $10,000 because that is the Apple way.
And the casters will go from $699 to $1099 due to inflation.
And wouldn't be nearly as expandable.
I'm pretty sure Apple can't do this, even for an extra few zeros per machine. As for them to create something so user friendly and expandable would kill all the decision makers that have for years been sticking the pointy end of a sharp object into their userbase.
I think Nvidia can make perfect ARM Desktop but I am not sure they will try
Apple’s not going to do this. They are saying goodbye to upgradeability, because that’s the only way they can achieve performance. Which means goodbye to the workstation market.
awsome video!
Its exactly what I have been looking for, but a bit expensive still. Nice. Thank you.
Sadly gone are the days of Apple being interested in any architecture allowing end users to anything but buy a new device to increase their computing power
This kind of setup isn't unprecedented either; Apple used to have processor daughtercards in the G3/G4 era (and earlier), and upgrades were annoying but possible (Sonnet used to make a ton of them).
I still see the odd G4 or G5 upgraded beyond its initial specs living out a longer life.
@@JeffGeerling true...but nothing since the advent of apple silicon.
@@JeffGeerling Powerlogix was the other competitor to Sonnet. I had a Powerlogix card in a G4. Once. Upon. A. Time. 🤣😂😆
Craziest thing is, this thing costs about as much as the Mac Pro
The cost is not that important, but what it can do that cost , what instructions set is supported in cpu
I NEED THE VIDEO of this beast with a GPU playing stuff
Looks like perfect Hackintosh material
I so hope we see what gaming looks like on this machine.
I hear you and am listening
@a4e69636b Awesome idea but nobody is gonna bother doing that :(
@@cryptocsguy9282 I am so hoping Jeff will be that exception.
Please take some look at pine64’s Ox64 the $8 SBC/microcontroller combo that runs linux.
Glad you back doing videos love to see if that could run VMware. Might be a great home lab server.
Refreshingly good video.
Hope this can push chipmakers to focus more on efficiency. It will really be interesting if Apple make M-chips workstation. These could bring more impact than their corporate's own carbon neutral spending
Interesting stuff… Apple is not really doing themselves any favors by maintaining an isolationist position and excluding others from adding value to their platforms, or even for users to perform upgrades. Something really odd about this approach. I am an Apple user, but I find it really difficult to stomach this - they’re even doing everything that they can to stop right to repair as well, so it is just a little crazy… Anyway, that looks like a real cracker of a machine, and provided that it runs LinuxMint, which I’m sure it will, I would be more than happy to use it. Sadly out of my budget right now… Thanks for a great video and perhaps by the time you are ready for your next one, you will have heard from MS… 👍🙂
Man your videos are a joy. I currently have a M1 Pro MacBook Pro, because to me it's the best laptop out there in terms of efficiency, but my desktop is a Ryzen 5900X and I am often looking at horrendous efficiency and in Germany electricity seems to be a luxury with prices of 32-45 Euro Cents per kilowatt-hour.
"I even tried edge on my PC" made my day ... thank you man!
That's honestly a very cheap computer considering what those servers go for in rack mount.
Definitely not a bad deal for what you get. Might want to throw in a midrange graphics card to complete it, but I still haven't gotten around to testing any yet.
To be fair, take two large server rooms of the same size then fill one up with rack mounts then fill the other up with these boxes. How many servers per space you think you will get over the other? You’re paying for more servers per space. Rack mounting is not for everyone clearly.
Look pal, what we all want to know is CAN IT RUN CRYSIS??????
Thanks for the excellent video. The main issue is that Apple doesn't like to open up their architecture - they prefer a closed, tightly controlled, architecture.
I love this sort of stuff, I just wish I had the money to actually get it lol. Thank you for covering all of this stuff, especially for us folks who can't afford it. We love being able to see this technology and seeing all the cool stuff that's possible to achieve with it.
In two words ""F@#$ Apple".
**wipes ass with hundred dollar bills**
**wipes ass with hundred dollar bills**
Neoverse-N1 is shit.
seems like it be a great docker system if maxed out.
I love the look of that matt black board.
i will wait to a follow up video about windows ARM performance
That computer looks awesome. If I had it I would try to run the Alpaca.cpp 65B parameter model.
Do you get to keep it? Lol this is frankly an amazing form factor. Love it Jeff
Do some emulation ox x86 f you can and see if you can get a decent steam setup just for kicks. Similar to what has already been done for the rock 5b
"will it play doom?" 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
that made my night!
also! this machine looks very promising, I 'd love to get one to mess with.
Wow arm desktop. That's just awesome
1:46 Let me just nitpick a little, but AKTSCHUALLY there is no NVMe slot. It's M.2 and NVMe is the protocol for drive access over PCIe. M.2 just carries PCIe signal :p Great video as always!
Technically correct, the best kind!
M2 is just PCIE anyway so no issue at all
Did you/can you set the SATA/nVMe/storage controller to ATA mode instead of ACPI? I get those errors with Windows 10 when I set up the machine with ATA and then when the BIOS got reset defaults to RAID or ACPI mode....anyway.
Great computer for launching benchmarks.
Jeff, I have been thinking about Ampere to use as a souped up Gitlab CI Runner that can build our Jetson Xavier images. We currently use qemu and it's ridiculously slow on x86_64 hardware. Do you think the Ampere hardware would work well for this?
@7:45 are you using full system draw for the wattage on all chips? On the 5600x, what gpu did you use. 196w for that chip seems way too high owning one myself.
That is total system draw including 750W PSU under full load. Don’t know if the RTX 8000 was already plugged in at this point.
How long does it take from power switch-on to POST, and then to boot? Every system I've tried that had a BMC, including the Raptor POWER9 systems, took on the order of minutes to get to a desktop, even when the OS load itself only took a few seconds.
Your shirt supporting Rocky Linux reminded me of that "standards" meme and replaced the word:
"Why are there so many Linux Distros? We should make a new one to universalize everything between them." (Loop)
I’m drooling over this thing so hard, a workstation class ARM system with proper PCIe expansions would be a dream to me. Maybe if I win the lottery I’ll buy this 😛