Four MISCONCEPTIONS about GIFT OF SPEAKING IN TONGUES ( Joseph Dinesh )
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- Опубліковано 25 лип 2019
- GIFT OF TONGUES ( What does the Catholic Church say )
There is so much confusion about the Gift of Tongues in both protestant and catholic circles, I thought it's important to this video on what exactly the Catholic tradition says regarding the Gift of Tongues. Take a look at the video and let me know your comments.
The four misconceptions that I talk about in the Video are
1. Is it a Human Language
2. Without Interpretation
3. Have to make an effort
4. You have to speak in Tongues
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Thank you Brother 🙌
I can sense a lot of heat in the comments. A lot of people here alluding to saints who had experienced extatic presence of the holy spirit. But are we sure that the manifestations in the renewal circles within and outside the catholic church are similar to the ones that the great saints and the early catholics experienced???
I happened to see one of the testimonies of Patti Mansfield, one of the select few who were present in the DUQUESNE WEEKEND which is said to be the starting point of the Charismatic Renewal in the church. I noticed in the prayer session that followed her testimony she had asked people in the audience to utter any words or syllables, like a baby, that came to their mouth as she prays, so that they get the gift of tongues. I doubt this is the kind of experience the saints were having. It is better to use caution than submit to experiences whose source may not be the holy spirit. God bless Joseph Dinesh!!!
Praise to Jesus....Thank YOU for this video
Praise God Arvind !! Hope it was helpful for your understanding
Thanks a lot, it's like my prayer got answered..one of my dear friend started using gibberish language in prayer and adoration and tells that he can't interpret what he says because he doesn't have the gift of interpretation and forces me to pray in tongues and pray for gift of interpretation. I searched for it on the internet whether his gibberish is the right thing but it was of no use, it's like everyone wants to have the gift of tongues.. but this video really gave me the clarity as to what the church really states about gift of tongues.
Thanks a lot once again
Priase God Denny !! I am so glad that this video was helpful for you to understand the Catholic Perspective Of Gift Of Tongues
Share it with your friend and let me know what he thinks
Chand Mulchandani
You have described only one part of the tongues i.e.speaking in tongues and not the other part which is praying and singing in tongues, Please read 1 Cor 14:2, 4 and Romans 8:26 and than rethink . Where it is written , For those speak in a tongue do not speak to other people but God for nobody understands them, since they speak mysteries in the Spirit. Those who speak in a tongue build up themselves.
@@lejanjames you are right.
@@SongonFirecatholicIndia you read Bible also.
Hey Joseph,
This video is worth watching. Praise be to Jesus Christ.
Rony
Hey thanks Rony for the feedback - God Bless
Surely, there are misunderstandings amongst pentecostal churches and part of some Catholic communities. But I don't think anyone should be discouraged from desiring the gift of tongues or any 'gifts', as we deepen our relationship with God the Holy Spirit. "Pursue love and strive for the spiritual gifts ..." - 1 Corinthians 14:1.
"Now I would like all of you to speak in tongues, but even more to prophesy" - 1 Corinthians 14:5. I am somehow not convinced by the catholic commentary mentioned at 9:11 . I think that St. Paul does "ideally" want us to desire the gift of prophesy. "So, my friends, be eager to prophesy, and do not forbid speaking in tongues; but all things should be done decently and in order." - 1 Corinthians 14: 39. I might be wrong here.
...
If my understanding is right, the gift of speaking in tongues, along with the gift of interpretation of tongues is the same as the gift of prophecy? "Therefore, one who speaks in a tongue should pray for the power to interpret." - 1 Corinthians 14.13. Thus, according to my understanding St. Paul says it is desirable to receive the gift of speaking in tongues, surely followed by a desire to receive the gift of interpretation of tongues, ie to be able to prophesize for the common good of the Church.
"For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays but my mind is unproductive. What should I do then? I will pray with the spirit, but I will pray with the mind also; I will sing praise with the spirit, but I will sing praise with the mind also." - 1 Corinthians 14.14. I think St. Paul here gives clarification on using the gift of tongues, for those who have not yet received the gift of interpretation of tongues or the gift of prophecy.
The questions at 7:09 (the origin of speech) and 7:13 (recognizing the gift of tongues) are concerns left to discernment. Even though CCC para 2003 mentions the gift of tongues as a special grace of the Holy Spirit, there is no clear definition of what constitutes the gift of tongues (yet).
Although I deeply love what the Church father usually say, the present position of the Catholic church on this matter is more open (not cessationism). Especially seeing how the Holy Spirit’s action had drawn people closer to God after the Catholic Charismatic Renewal.
***PS***: Any of the above interpretations could be wrong or incomplete or missing something. They are just expressions of my thoughts and very limited understanding. Do correct me.
Anyhow, it's definitely right to say that "Everyone should desire the gifts of the Holy Spirit", rather than a mistaken statement like "Everyone should prophesize or speak in tongues".
The modern version of "speaking in tongues" is not the same as what happened in the Bible. It's Protestant nonsense.
Thanks for this video which erased all my misconceptions. Yes... Unless Holy Spirit gives this gift we cannot have this. That is His grace and mercy to choose whom to give this gift. We should not try for it forcibly.
Exactly ! and some in the Catholic Circle have really misunderstood the purpose of using Tongues
Just because some do it, you do not throw the baby out with the bath water. Misuse should be corrected with proper use, not forbidding the gift
Catechism of the Catholic Church - Paragraph 2003 :
Grace is first and foremost the gift of the Spirit who justifies and sanctifies us. But grace also includes the gifts that the Spirit grants us to associate us with his work, to enable us to collaborate in the salvation of others and in the growth of the Body of Christ, the Church. There are sacramental graces, gifts proper to the different sacraments.
There are furthermore special graces, also called charisms after the Greek term used by St. Paul and meaning "favor," "gratuitous gift," "benefit."53 Whatever their character - sometimes it is extraordinary, such as the gift of miracles or of tongues - charisms are oriented toward sanctifying grace and are intended for the common good of the Church. They are at the service of charity which builds up the Church.
What’s u point ?
Thank you for saying this out so eloquently and boldly. I've been having intellectual issues too with the way this gift has been practiced within the charismatic movement within the catholic church.
Yes !! Thanks for the feedback Anil !! I was also really troubled by that
@@SongonFirecatholicIndia I've raised this issue politely with some of the leaders within the CCR. For now, since there is no authoritative teaching from the Pope/Magisterium (as is the case with many other controversial things that have crept into the church), this will probably continue to linger and divide us within the church.
I share your frustration
It should not divide if you are open to the correct teachings
The Catholic Church has not condemn this kind of tongues !! So neither should we !! I am just against the abuse of the Gift and saying that Tongues is the solution for eveything and putting undue burden on people
Amen🙏
Thanks for sharing. Well done brother
Praise God
Clear teaching--thank-you.
Hey thanks Jeannine !! Glad you liked the video !! What was your perspective on Tongues before watching this video?
Dear Joseph it's true the there are misconceptions like gift of toungues gives you a victorious life & the likes.. But there are biblical indications that the gift of tounges can lead to spiritual edification, for instance: St. Paul says: 1 Cor 14 : 28 : If anyone speaks in a tongue, two-or at the most three-should speak, one at a time, and someone must interpret. 28 If there is no interpreter, the speaker should keep quiet in the church and speak to himself and to God." , which means through this gift one can speak quitely to God..! again in 1 Cor 14 : 5 he says "I would like every one of you to speak in tongues, but I would rather have you prophesy. The one who prophesies is greater than the one who speaks in tongues, unless someone interprets, so that the church may be edified." ...which means it's possible that everyone who desires for the gift of Toungues will receive this gift. Also the following verses clearly shows that the gift of tounges is a gift for personal spiritual edification: "1 cor 14: 2 For anyone who speaks in a tongue does not speak to people but to God. Indeed, no one understands them; they utter mysteries by the Spirit. 1 Cor 14: 4. : "Anyone who speaks in a tongue edifies themselves, but the one who prophesies edifies the church. "; Personally speaking its the deep desire in you to receive this gift that helps you to receive it also i feel God looks at your intention with which you are asking for this gift. In times of personal prayer praying/singing in Gift of toungues really lifts your spirit...
What your Interpretation you have put forward here, is it consistent with the Catholic Teaching? If its just your interpretation, then I can Interpret to make my argument right ?
show me church docs which says that gift of Tongues can be used for Personal prayer
St. Paul already says : the one who speaks in tougues, speaks to God, 1 cor 14: 2, and I suppose it's a very straight statement which might not need any interpretation.... as far as I know personal prayer is speaking to God itself. Also dear Joseph, I am not in for any sort of arguments..., but it would be good if you could speak about the same with some Catholic priests well versed in Thelogy. All the best. Besides .... I very much like your interviews & covers... God bless.
[14:2-3a] They involve two kinds of communication: tongues, private speech toward God in inarticulate terms that need interpretation to be intelligible to others (see 1 Cor 14:27-28); prophecy, communication with others in the community.
www.usccb.org/bible/1corinthians/14
Is the quote at 1:09 a direct quote? From whom?
THE GIFT OF TONGUES :
Three types of Tongues mentioned in the Bible are as follows :-
1). Praying in Tongues :
1 Corinthians 14:2
For one who speaks in a tongue speaks not to men but to God; for no one understands him, but he utters mysteries in the Spirit.
1 Corinthians 14:14
For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays but my mind is unfruitful.
Romans 8:25-27
But if we hope for what we do not see, we wait with endurance. In the same way, the Spirit too comes to the aid of our weakness; for we do not know how to pray as we ought, but the Spirit itself intercedes with inexpressible groanings. And the one who searches hearts knows what is the intention of the Spirit, because it intercedes for the holy ones according to God’s will.
2). He who has the gift of interpretation can interpret what someone speaks in tongues for the good of the society. That is why Paul said those who speak in tongues should be silent in church, unless they have the gift of interpretation. As this message was given by God it is therefore can also be considered as prophecy. Please note that praying to God with the the gift of tongue and speaking to the society by tongue with the help of gift of interpretation are two things :
1 Corinthians 14:13
Therefore, one who speaks in a tongue should pray to be able to interpret.
1 Corinthians 14:27-28
If anyone speaks in a tongue, let it be two or at most three, and each in turn, and one should interpret. But if there is no interpreter, the person should keep silent in the church and speak to himself and to God.
3). In the early church when the apostles spoke to thousands in their language those who gathered there heard the speech in their own languages :
Acts 2:1-11
When the time for Pentecost was fulfilled, they were all in one place together. And suddenly there came from the sky a noise like a strong driving wind,* and it filled the entire house in which they were. Then there appeared to them tongues as of fire,* which parted and came to rest on each one of them. And they were all filled with the holy Spirit and began to speak in different tongues,* as the Spirit enabled them to proclaim.
Now there were devout Jews from every nation under heaven staying in Jerusalem. At this sound, they gathered in a large crowd, but they were confused because each one heard them speaking in his own language. They were astounded, and in amazement they asked, “Are not all these people who are speaking Galileans?
Then how does each of us hear them in his own native language? We are Parthians, Medes, and Elamites, inhabitants of Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia,10Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the districts of Libya near Cyrene, as well as travelers from Rome, both Jews and converts to Judaism, Cretans and Arabs, yet we hear them speaking in our own tongues of the mighty acts of God.
Well explained brother. Thank you.
Could you please provide the exact sources you used here? Simply putting "Early Church Fathers" after a quote may not be as convincing for some. Thanks for the video!
Can you specify the quote ?
@@SongonFirecatholicIndia Hello, UA-cam didn't notify me when you responded. I am looking specifically for the quote used at 1:05
Sabash Jd.. your best video as far as I am concerned.. cause its pure truth :)
Dude you said the same thing for babyachayan’s Video
Great video! The modern Charismatic stuff is a bunch of Protestant nonsense.
Word of God is for all human beings and above all teachings. There were saints in Catholic Church with different opinion on same subjects, including this subject. So always give priority to what the Word of God says. Earlier, Catholic Church taught that there is no salvation outside the Church. Later, they changed this stand.
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Among the early Fathers who taught that outside the Church there is no salvation, St Fulgentius of Ruspe, around the year 500, is one of the strongest: “Not only all pagans, but also all Jews and all heretics and schismatics, who finish their lives outside the Catholic Church, will go into eternal fire…” (On Faith, to Peter 38.81).
As for popes, Pope Eugene IV in the Bull Cantate Domino (1441), using the same terms as St Fulgentius, taught in an infallible definition: “The Most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews, heretics, and schismatics can ever be partakers of eternal life, but that they are to go into the eternal fire ‘which was prepared for the devil and his angels’ (Mt 25:41) unless before death they are joined with her.”
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CCC 86 "Yet this Magisterium is not superior to the Word of God, but is its servant.
It teaches only what has been handed on to it. At the divine command and with the help of the Holy Spirit, it listens to this devotedly, guards it with dedication and expounds it faithfully. All that it proposes for belief as being divinely revealed is drawn from this single deposit of faith."48
Which Word of God supports ur position on Gift of Tongues ?
@@SongonFirecatholicIndia
I saw in the comments section a person beautifully explained various types of Gift of Tongues with Bible references. Go read it.
Attend any Catholic charismatic renewal retreats to know more about Holy Spirit's Charisms which is purely based on Bible.
Whatever is written in Bible is applicable for all human beings till the end of the earth. Don't think that it was applicable only for early church or for Corinthians.
Mark 16:17
These are the signs that will be associated with believers: in my name they will cast out devils; they will have the gift of tongues;
You have said that, since Gift of Tongues is a "gift" so it's needless to put an effort in order to receive it. But "interpretation of Tongues" is also a "gift", then why St. Paul asked us to PRAY for it in (1 Corinthians 14:13)?
Also in (1 Corinthians 14:2-4) means in a sense that if we use it in our personal prayer, it can help us in our own "spiritual growth and build up". Also Bible says that it can be personal too in between me and God. Yes, but having interpretation is beneficial for the church obviously.
Please explain it!
1. I have no problem with praying! I was talking about the Human effort involved where the preacher forces the faithful to speak or blabber
2. Good Point !! How do you know that the Tongue Mentioned in 1 corinthians 14:2-4 is the same as Gift of Tongues? Do you have any Church doc to prove it?
The@@SongonFirecatholicIndia Shall we really need any document in order to prove it? The Scripture is very vivid in these verses. It's definitely tongue since it's a mysterious utterance in Spirit as well as no one understands it. If it's not Tongues then what it is then? Explain it?
The matter about praying for this. The council of Trent says that we shouldn't pray at all for any of the gifts. But when the Bible contradicts it then?
@@ayushdas7447 Your interpretation of the Bible sounds like a Protestant interpretation
From another Apostolic Church: “The Greek Orthodox Church does not preclude the use of Glossolalia, but regards it as one of the minor gifts of the Holy Spirit. If Glossolalia has fallen out of use it is because it served its purpose in New Testament times and is no longer necessary. However, even when used, it is a private and personal gift, a lower form of prayer. The Orthodox Church differs with those Pentecostal and Charismatic groups which regard Glossolalia as a pre requisite to being a Christian and to having received the Holy Spirit. (Me: So does the Catholic Charismatic Renewal in the Catholic Church)
Serapion of Egypt, a fourth century contemporary of St. Athanasios summarized Eastern Orthodox theology:
"The Anointing after Baptism is for the Gifts of the Holy Spirit, that having been born again through Baptism and made new through the laver of regeneration, the candidates may be made new through the gifts of the Holy Spirit and secured by this Seal may continue steadfast."
Bishop Maximos Aghiorghoussis, Greek Orthodox Diocese of Pittsburgh and world-renowned Orthodox theologian on the Holy Spirit states it this way: "For Orthodox Christians, Baptism is our personal Paschal Resurrection and Chrismation is our personal Pentecost and indwelling of the Holy Spirit."
There are two forms of Glossolalia:
Pentecost Glossolalia happened this way: Fifty days after the Resurrection, while the disciples were gathered together, the Holy Spirit descended upon them and they began to speak in other languages. Jews from all over the civilized world who were gathered in Jerusalem for the religious holiday stood in amazement as they heard the disciples preaching in their own particular language and dialect (like in a United Nations Assembly). They understood!
Corinthian Glossolalia is different. St. Paul, who had founded the Church of Corinth, found it necessary to respond to some of their problems, i.e., division of authority, moral and ethical problems, the eucharist, the issue of death and resurrection and how the Gifts of the Holy Spirit operated. In chapter 12, St. Paul lists nine of the Gifts of the Holy Spirit, i.e., knowledge, wisdom, spirit, faith, healing, miracles, prophecy, speaking in tongues and interpreting what another says when he speaks in tongues.
Specifically, Corinthian Glossolalia was an activity of the Holy Spirit coming upon a person and compelling him to external expressions directed to God, but not understood by others. In Pentecost Glossolalia, while speaking in several different tongues, both the speaker and the listener understood what was uttered. The Glossolalia manifested in Corinth was the utterance of words, phrases, sentences, etc., intelligible to God but not to the person uttering them. What was uttered needed to be interpreted by another who had the gift of interpretation.
When the person spoke, his soul became passive and his understanding became inactive. He was in a state of ecstasy. While the words or sounds were prayer and praise, they were not clear in meaning and gave the impression of something mysterious. The phenomenon included sighs, groanings, shoutings, cries and utterances of disconnected speech, sometimes jubilant and some times ecstatic. There is no question-the Church of Corinth had Glossolalia; St. Paul attests to that and makes mention of it. But he also cautions the Corinthian Christians about excessive use; especially to the exclusion of the other more important gifts.”
You are giving all kinds of explanation except addressing the four points which I have mentioned in the Video - The conversation is going to go nowhere if you are not ready to that
Did you know v21 is a quote from Isaiah 28 v;s 11TO14 IT SAYS IT IS A SIGN ISAIAH 28 :14 TELLS US IT IS A SIGN TO THOSE LEADERS IN JERUSALEM , WHO ,-JEWS WHAT WAS THE SIGN .THE CHANGE OF LANGUAGES .FROM HEBREW TO GENTILE LANGUAGES . SIGN OF THE START OF THE CHURCH AGE .IN GENTILE LANGUAGES .ACTS 10 :45.
Speaking in tongue and praying in tongue. There's a difference
I pray in tongues with my wife when words fail us and a caress is our of the question.
Takes about 3 minutes flat before we are reconciled.
What a gift for marriage! And the fruits are repeatable and obvious.
Try doing this with a spouse or friend. Amazing reconciliation power!
Can u back with Catholic teaching the difference between speaking and praying in tongues ?
@@SongonFirecatholicIndia 1 Corinthians 14:19
Nevertheless, in church I would rather speak five words with my mind in order to instruct others, than ten thousand words in a tongue.
In other words, it is an important distinction between babbling (mindless noise) and that of utterances. Both can exist, that latter which are linked to thoughts, though unable to be spoken in human form due to their complexity, volume and speed of creation. We think faster than we can speak except when praying in tongues
1 Corinthians 13:1
If I speak in the tongues of men AND of angels but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. I understand this to mean that both are real gifts. Pray to God in tongues (the language of angels), Speak to People in tongues (another human language).
Another aspect of this gift is by knowing its fruit. This makes it very real and believable.
Praying in Tongues also has tangible divine benefits. One of the many fruits is the gift of reconciliation, in rapid time and when it was not thought humanly possible or achievable. Watch what happens.
We may also consider that the Gift of INTERPRETATION of tongues is a gift that builds up the church and validates praying/speaking in the tongue by having someone make sense of the tongue and deliver it to the assembly when normally it would not be understood by human terms.
In other words, there are various kinds of tongues:
1 Corinthians 12:28
And God has appointed in the church first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healing, helping, administrating, and various kinds of tongues
1 Corinthians 12:10
To another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another the ability to distinguish between spirits, to another various kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues.
1 Corinthians 14:2
For one who speaks in a tongue speaks not to men but to God; for no one understands him, but he utters mysteries in the Spirit.
I hope this give you an understanding of where many come from when using the gifts
I am so sorry I did not understand !! U have quoted the same bibles verse which I have spoken in the Video - Is there any Catholic directive on this ? Likes Saints, Doctors of the church and so on ? Or should we just depend on ur interpretation vs mine ?
@@SongonFirecatholicIndia
I get where you're coming from. The truth about God proclaimed through the spoken word sets us free. There is freedom and healing in righteous living and thinking before God.
However, the gifts of tongues allows my wife and I to proclaim Gods truth in words only after the gift of tongues had been used. It's as though we were babe's having to learn how to talk again. 3 minutes of tongues for tertiary educated 50 year old people to be united as a couple is so so much faster than 3 days of being annoyed with each other or 27 years of struggling in marriage. All marrriages have their moments. This is one of the fruits that has astounded us.
In addition to this, also consider why Father Rameiro Cantalemessa (preacher to the last 3 pipes), Pope JP II, and Pope Frances who all encourage the renewal and that means the gift of tongues. When papa Francesco commissioned the 50th anniversary gathering hundreds of thousands who assembled in May 2017 and who represented over 100 million people, know he was following the Holy Spirit and validating the renewal prayed for by Pope John XXIII. He states: "Some may not like the way you pray but know this is fully scriptural." He was not just talking about flag waving, holding hands up, dancing like king David.
This is so much bigger than our opinions.
Please pray about what has been written and continue seeking the Lord the way you do.
You're video has helped mature many people thoughts through dialogue and their prayerful reflection
Look for the fruits that follow the gifts. This will
convict anyone. If married, pray with your wife. If ill at ease with another Christian, pray together using this gift. If unsure about anything, pray with words AND the words of angels.
It's all scriptural.
Now it has to become personal and real.
U are kind off diluting the whole charismatic renewal to Gift Tongues - I still don’t understand why everyone should speak in To u tongues 🤷♂️ Where does the church say that ?
With all due respect Brother,
The Bible clearly says in 1Cor 14.4 that the gift of tongues builds up the one who is praying in tongues . It is not always necessary that it must be understood , as mentioned in 1 Cor 14.14 up the spirit is praying but the mind is unproductive.
So the mind is unproductive means that it does not understand what is uttered . And further St.Paul goes on to say that he will pray with his spirit and mind also. So praying in tongues builds up oneself even though the mind is unproductive .
Please give a thought to it.
God Bless you.
Thanks for your thoughts Amram !! Is this view backed by the Catholic Church !
@@SongonFirecatholicIndia check out catholic answers ua-cam.com/video/K5xp5LsiMvQ/v-deo.html
Please watch the full video.
Thank you
1 Cor 14: 1-33
Bro kindly learn the mystery of tongues then u speak
Sorry to say this but the proclamations in the video is really not entirely true. The Catholic Church does not condemn the charismatic gifts which includes the gift of tongues. Joseph only looks at scripture that suggests that tongues are in a foreign language, Xenolalia in Greek, that is one aspect of the gift of tongues. There is also another aspect of the gift of tongues called Glossolalia in Greek, which does not involve a foreign language, it’s mainly for the recepient of the gift for personal edification. St. Paul talks about both aspects, unfortunately in English, there is no distinction, they just translate it as “speaking in tongues”. I will agree that no one should insist that one does not have the Holy Spirit unless they speak in tongues, that’s a faulty belief based on cultish beliefs and is not taught by the Catholic church or the Catholic Charismatic Renewal. But I will say like St. Paul, do not forbid the speaking of tongues either. Hardline views are not from God.
Ok now you are making sense
1. I will not condemn what the Church has not condemned
2. The intention of the video is to curb abuse
3. I know many Catholics who are substituting praying in tongues for the sacramental life of the church
4. The Church has not taught that there is difference between praying and speaking - So I don’t think anyone can assert that
Ok now we are getting somewhat closer to agreement, 3. Catholics who substitute praying in tongues for sacramental life are like infants in the faith, they need the right spiritual guidance to study the faith, Holy Mass is the pinnacle of Catholic worship, that cannot be substituted by praying in tongues, so does sacrament of reconciliation or confession. Praying in tongues and sacraments and life of the church and saints and traditional prayers of the church should all be enriching.
4. The Church already knows the difference because the Church has been interacting with the Catholic Charismatic Renewal for over 50 years now. That’s why in the document I posted the Church gives guidelines to Bishops and clearly says the gift of tongue can enrich the recipients personal spiritual life. Also the Church does not see the need to distinguish when scripture is quite clear on the topic and the original Greek does make the distinction between speaking (prophesying, proclaiming) and praying (personal edification).
No, I don’t think the scripture on difference !! There are lot of many different interpretations for that !
And please don’t put Praying in Tongues in the same pedestal as the Sacrament - Sacraments are dogmatic teaching of the church - And there is not def teaching on Tongues
God spoke, and in all the dimensions of the Bible, never has it been said, put to paper or passed on vis the Angels, that there is a secret type of language, or heavenly tongue we will speak in Gods kingdom or here on earth, nor do we need that tongue here on earth, for if so, then Jesus would been the demonstrator and teacher of that tongue. WHEN HE RECEIVED THE HOLY SPIRIT, never happened
For the Speaking in Tongues, has to the Christ, always been our human language, with all speech ever recorded used by God in the Ages past and now, God expects us to pray in our own understanding, with the tool of choice our native tongue, nothing can be more pleasing to God, than our Praises with our understanding.Withal praises, Speaking in Tongues, of your own language, is the leading instrument by which the praises of God are proclaimed.
Never has the speech of mighty men of God, from Noah Jesus and Moses, ever been any thing but their natural native tongue.
Men must offer a worship corresponding with the nature and attributes of God, the power of our native speech, brought forward by our own conscious heart in our native language.
Jesus in all his time on earth never did the Barny Babble Gibberish, for Satan has grasp those fools who look for a sign,
1Cor 14: NKJB 10There are, it may be, so many kinds of languages in the world, and none of them is without [b]significance. 11Therefore, if I do not know the meaning of the language, I shall be a [c]foreigner to him who speaks, and he who speaks will be a foreigner to me.
The Angel and Balaam's Donkey, Through the Spirit of God, even a donkey can speak in tongues, known language, when Balalam heard the donkey it was not the Barny Babble gibberish, or nor was it Hee Haw Hee Haw, it was has allways been in man's tongue.
God Speed
facebook.com/groups/2565423860201515/learning_content/?filter=1189194971287898
The gift of praying in tongues is definitely valid. Read St. Paul’s explanation on praying in tongues. It is an extension of the gift of tongues. You are confusing it with public speaking of tongues and praying in tongues for personal edification
What is the difference between public speaking of tongues and praying in Tongues - Please back it up with Church Teaching !
Hi bro, please check out this link from Catholic Answers, there is a document put out by the Vatican on the charismatic gifts of h the Holy Spirit. The Church has no definitive teaching on how the gift of tongues work other than what St. Paul has extensively taught in his epistles. St.Paul clearly makes a distinction between publicly speaking in tongues during a prayer meeting or during Holy Mass, though the rubrics of the Church do not allow for it today, it was done in the ancient church vs praying in tongues where you allow the Holy Spirit within you to pray. My point is the Church has not forbidden tongues and accepts the working of the gift and we should avoid taking a hardline approach to it. I can share with you what I find from the official teachings ua-cam.com/video/O9eIV5jF-40/v-deo.html
@@bpcathcrusader4952 Are you saying we should speak in tongues during Holy mass ?? Seriously !! That's the weirdest thing I have heard
1 Corinthians 14:2 For one who speaks in a tongue does not speak to human beings but to God, for no one listens; he utters mysteries in spirit.
Mysteries not understood by humans are assumed as a supernatural language
1 Corinthians 14:6 Now, brothers, if I should come to you speaking in tongues, what good will I do you if I do not speak to you by way of revelation, or knowledge, or prophecy, or instruction?
1 Corinthians 14:9 Similarly, if you, because of speaking in tongues, do not utter intelligible speech, how will anyone know what is being said? For you will be talking to the air.
Talking to the air metioned here because the believers who give a message in a non intelligible language wouldn’t serve any good for the building up of the church as no one understands it without the gift of interpretation
1 Corinthians 14:13 Therefore, one who speaks in a tongue should pray to be able to interpret.
1 Corinthians 14:16 Otherwise, if you pronounce a blessing [with] the spirit, how shall one who holds the place of the uninstructed say the “Amen” to your thanksgiving, since he does not know what you are saying?
Finally
1 Corinthians 14:39 So, [my] brothers, strive eagerly to prophesy, and do not forbid speaking in tongues
Gift of tongues is only one of the gifts of the Holy Spirit and it is also beneficial but is not the only indication if the presence of Holy Spirit
The foot note in my catholic NAB Bible has some interesting interpretation too
1 Corinthians 14:2-3*They involve two kinds of communication: tongues, private speech toward God in inarticulate terms that need interpretation to be intelligible to others (see 1 Cor 14:27-28); prophecy, communication with others in the community.
1 Corinthians 14:3-5* They produce two kinds of effect. One who speaks in tongues builds himself up; it is a matter of individual experience and personal perfection, which inevitably recalls Paul’s previous remarks about being inflated, seeking one’s own good, pleasing oneself. But a prophet builds up the church: the theme of “building up” or “edifying” others, the main theme of the letter, comes to clearest expression in this chapter (1 Cor 14:3, 4, 5, 12, 17). It has been anticipated at 1 Cor 8:1 and 1 Cor 10:23, and by the related concept of “the beneficial” in 1 Cor 6:12; 10:23; 12:7; etc.
* [14:6-12] Sound, in order to be useful, must be intelligible. This principle is illustrated by a series of analogies from music (1 Cor 14:7-8) and from ordinary human speech (1 Cor 14:10-11); it is applied to the case at hand in 1 Cor 14:9, 12.
* [14:13-19] The charism of interpretation lifts tongues to the level of intelligibility, enabling them to produce the same effect as prophecy (cf. 1 Cor 14:5, 26-28).
* [14:14-15] My spirit: Paul emphasizes the exclusively ecstatic, nonrational quality of tongues. The tongues at Pentecost are also described as an ecstatic experience (Acts 2:4, 12-13), though Luke superimposes further interpretations of his own. My mind: the ecstatic element, dominant in earliest Old Testament prophecy as depicted in 1 Sm 10:5-13; 19:20-24, seems entirely absent from Paul’s notion of prophecy and completely relegated to tongues. He emphasizes the role of reason when he specifies instruction as a function of prophecy (1 Cor 14:6, 19, 31). But he does not exclude intuition and emotion; cf. references to encouragement and consolation (1 Cor 14:3, 31) and the scene describing the ideal exercise of prophecy (1 Cor 14:24-25).
Whats your point !! Can you individually address the point which I have stated in the Vidoe ?
Dear JD please do not make a video provoked by others words, be led by the Spirit of God. The gentleness you have when you produce the other videos is missing in you ...take care
I did not understand what you are saying ! Provoked by other words ? whats words ?
Maybe feeling scandalized as many use this, speaking gibberish and then prophecy. Only the Lord knows if its from him or otherwise
You have described only one part of the tongues i.e.speaking in tongues and not the other part which is praying and singing in tongues, Please read 1 Cor 14:2, 4 and Romans 8:26 and than rethink . Where it is written , For those speak in a tongue do not speak to other people but God for nobody understands them, since they speak mysteries in the Spirit. Those who speak in a tongue build up themselves.
Does the Catholic Church say anything about Tongues being used for personal prayer ? Can you give me the quotation from the Catechism ?
[14:2-3a] They involve two kinds of communication: tongues, private speech toward God in inarticulate terms that need interpretation to be intelligible to others (see 1 Cor 14:27-28); prophecy, communication with others in the community.
www.usccb.org/bible/1corinthians/14
Pope John Paul 2 prayed in tongues, as witnessed by Fr. Raneiro Cantalamessa who is still the preacher to the Papal Housrhold. Pope Benedict XVI who is well known for his sound teachings has not forbidden it, he has encouraged the Catholic Charismatic Renewal to continue bearing the fruit of the Holy Spirit. I will stick with the Church on this matter.
@JD: I am not in FB to get real time updates but I saw this and I must say that this is purely a 'one sided' perspective that you have given specifically on tongues to only be a human language plus possibly clubbed with your personal experience which can indeed cause confusion to the listeners.
I'm assuming you got your analysis officially verified by someone before you posting it? If not, I'd strongly advice to always get an official OK before posting such content which can cause confusions .
Specifically on tongues to always be a 'human language', let me ask you the below first:
1)Have you actually read or referred to any church statement condemning the ''gibberish' that you classify 'non human language' tongues to be?
2)Are you aware of the Church position or teachings on tongues after the Catholic Charismatic Renewal?
3)In the CCC-2003 which was released after the CCR where it does mention tongues as you pointed out "Whatever their character - sometimes it is extraordinary, such as the gift of miracles or of tongues - charisms are oriented toward sanctifying grace and are intended for the common good of the Church. "
a)Did you notice CCC doesn't explicitly mention 'it has to be a known human language'.
b) Have you not been to ANY Catholic charismatic prayer group where you see people praying & praising in tongues (non human language) which resulted in edifying the group, building the Church and was a blessing to all who attended it? (I'm sure you and me have been to many such groups bro!). Isn't this in line then with the CCC?
To start if you've not read the church teachings I'd suggest to read Malines: "Theological and Pastoral Orientations on the Catholic Charismatic Renewal" ...For which the Pope Francis says "In the Malines Documents, you have a guide, a reliable path to keep you from going astray."
In this document you see clearly stated:
"Whether tongues, in certain cases, is a true language or not remains to be seriously investigated"
Hope you read this clearly! The document which Pope Francis also gives his approval doesn't claim that tongues should always be a true language but that it is to be investigated. The Church itself is open to both cases and hasn't taken a firm conclusion here at the moment. And you were already taking conclusions!
OR are you pointing that this document is wrong when you take a stand and claim that tongues should always be a human language?
Before going forward let me point/agree that yes there are indeed cases where people emotionally can fall into what we can ideally call 'gibberish' and not 'tongues' but that is where clearly the church states the need for 'discernment' & here the community has a special role to play in discernment, and in the community certain individuals may play a special role.
A simple litmus test here is to check the Fruit of the spirit. There is indeed 'speaking in tongues' which can be a human language that required intepretation....but there could also be praying and praising in tongues which is more 'personal' and doesn't need intepretation and if it helps in edifying, unifying the group, who are we to judge this isn't tongues. If it helps the person to pray and connect to God, why judge and restrict it? (but yes if it's disturbing the group and causing concern, then possibly good to discern).
And besides all gifts are indeed for the building of the Church.....and you and me are the Church also and so yes, if it helps me grow in Christ, it's helping in building the Church also!
The consequence and problem when you post a video with only 1 side of the situation and claim tongues to only be a human language is that you end up:
- confusing a lot of people who are part of prayer groups and who are earnestly seeing to grow in Spirit. Such confusions would affect the persons freedom to allow the Spirit to work in Him.
- challenging the stand of all catholic charismatic retreats where ALL of them having praying in tongues (i have attended atleast 10-20 retreats where I didn't see any intepretration but it was definitely building the Church! and these questions you pose affect peoples views on them)
So in nutshell: The church is open to the fact that tongues is a valid gift, I post some phrases of this authentic document below for the listeners/readers.
-The most central function of the charism of tongues is prayer
- Those outside the Renewal who are attempting to evaluate the charism of tongues will fail if it is not understood in the framework of prayer. It is essentially a prayer gift, enabling many using it to pray at a deeper level. This charism should be understood as the manifestation of the Spirit in a prayer gift. If persons esteem this charism, it is because they want to pray better, and the charism of tongues help them to do just that.
-There is considerable spiritual value in having a preconceptual, non-objective way of praying. It allows one to say in a different, preconceptual medium what could not be said in a conceptual medium. Praying in tongues is to prayer what an abstract, non-objective picture is to painting. Praying in tongues requires intelligence, discipline, and form, of which even children are capable. Under the power of the Spirit, the believer prays freely without conceptual forms. For people who pray in tongues this is only one of a number of forms of prayer.
NOTE that none of above applies to tongues with the meaning of it to be a 'human language'
Malines document: www.nsc-chariscenter.org/malines-documents/
God bless and hope u take the feedback positively...
Hey, Roshan thanks for the feedback!
1. I don't think we have the same understanding of what Gift of Tongues is - As you have stated Gibberish could be a form of prayer but it is not Gift of Tongues ( According to the Church Fathers ). I will post the Doc below. The false connection was made by the Pentecostals 100 years ago and it crept into the Catholic Charismatic circles. There is absolutely no Catholic Literature that says Gibberish is the gift of Tongues.
2. You have stated that the litmus test is the fruit of the spirit - Do you think it's very arbitrary? Who gets to judge the fruit? Is the judgment of the fruit infallible? Does the Church say that we should ascertain the legitimacy of the Gift by fruits? Who is setting these random standards?
3.Gift of Tongues as a form of prayer - Once again I think you are confusing gibberish as tongues - Again, Does the Church say so ? Based on what are you making that claim - Just by experiences of people? Once again very arbitrary!
4. Enabling to pray in a deeper level - What about people who are not comfortable with gibberish? Are you saying they can't pray in a deeper level ? - Once again does the Church so? in 2000- years of history, at least I have not read a Saint or a Doctor of the Church or a Pope - who prayed in Tongues ( as per you understanding ) for deep connection with God - That is the protestant perspective.
5. Edification - Once again - Just because some spiritual experience is edifying does not mean its the official teaching of the Church- If we go by only edification Apparition of Our Lady in Medjugorje would be approved apparition by now. Again very arbitrary.
Finally, I have already validated my view on this clearly in the Video ( Scripture, Church fathers, and the Church documents ). If you disagree on anything, then I would like for you to point me to the Church Teaching which validates your understanding. Even though Fruits, experiences can be pointers, it cant be the foundation on which a Teaching can be validated. Then it becomes very relative.
Surprised you blur out everything as 'arbitary' where i don't think it is .All the statements i put up JD is based on the catholic document that i had put up. If u think that document is not catholic and arbitary...,pls feel free to raise it with the official authors of the documents.
Additionally, You continously quoted Church Fathers statements. Note that Church Fathers are not the Magesterium because if you were to follow the Church Fathers only literally then did you know that St.Augustine wrote that the gift of tongues had ceased by the time of his day. Augustine explained that this was because the Catholic Church now spoke the language of the nations, and tongue-speaking was only for purposes of evangelization (Aquinas agreed) (You can google and research this if you need). So then is your stand that tongues are not possible today since St.Augustine spoke as such at one moment of time?
While Yes i totally agree on the fact that in today's context the gifts can be 'abused' in certain context, to be able to firmly state whether tongues should ONLY be a valid language, i'd ask for evidence on what the 'official teaching' of the same is.
As said, I am ignorant but can you point me an official teaching from the official teaching body of the Church where it clearly says that tongues should ONLY (I stress the word ONLY) be a known human language?
I would prefer to first get the clear/direct answer to the only simple question below before giving me a feedback on the above:
TODAY: If the current Catholic Charismatic Renewal, Catholic Charismatic movements which are accountable & approved by the Holy See(if you agree) and guided by Catholic Bishops, catholic priests and Charis (the new, single, international service established by the Church for the needs of Catholic Charismatic Renewal in the Church) which actively involve in the life of the charismatic group see people praying in the 'gibberish' as you call it, why is the Bishop or priest or Charis who are appointed to guide the group not asking the group to stop praying in gibberish? You and me both have been in groups where Bishops have come and have heard us praying in 'gibberish'.....i'm surprised that the Bishop then hasn't said to the congregation NOT to pray in such a manner.....Why?
All i state is that the church is today not officially documented and stated that the gibberish u mention is definitely not tongues and has to ONLY be a human language. So let us also not speed up and conclude what the Church hasn’t officially concluded......
1. I don't agree to your correlation, which is
Just Because the Catholic Church endorses the Catholic Charismatic Renewal that it logically follows that it approves everything that they do - I think that's quite a stretch.
2. I agree with that the Church has not documented that gibberish form of prayer is not tongues - That does not mean that gibberish is the Gift of Tongues - Leaving the Church Fathers and the Magisterium. Is there any Biblical evidence that Gibberish is Gift of Tongues?
3. Again !! I am not against a gibberish form of prayer. But I dont think its Gift of Tongues.
4. The abuse of this Gift is unchecked in certain Charismatic circles which I think we should stand against - We Cant put undue burden on people saying that everyone should speak in tongues and the rest that I have mentioned in the Video
Very nice explanation Joseph . Thanks a lot . I remember 10 years back I went to a Pentecostal church and that was the time I was unemployed and the pastor said me that only if I shout with words which others could not understand , i could get job (in the name of gift of tongues) . So I did the same 😀
But my heart and mind didnt like it and so I didn’t go there from next day .
This video is very nice . Thanks again
I also had a similar experience. thanks to the church fathers - I was able to make sense of what the church's perspective is
Which church father ?
Chand Mulchandani
You have described only one part of the tongues i.e.speaking in tongues and not the other part which is praying and singing in tongues, Please read 1 Cor 14:2, 4 and Romans 8:26 and than rethink . Where it is written , For those speak in a tongue do not speak to other people but God for nobody understands them, since they speak mysteries in the Spirit. Those who speak in a tongue build up themselves.
@@lejanjames Watch the video !
@@lejanjames Is this Interpretation backed up the Catholic Church? Show me the church doc which affirms this Interpretation
U r standing and talking from physically
U shoukd get in to pray in tongues
Then u speak
Why ? why should everyone should speak TOngues ?
Song on Fire if there are many interpretations, why are you only insisting on Xenolalia (speaking an actual foreign language) as the only interpretation? The Greek translation also mentions Glossolalia (where you pray in an unknown tongue that is only between you and God and meant for your edification) You are deliberately misleading people on the working of the gift of tongues.
Also stop putting words into my mouth, I never put speaking in tongues on the same pedestal as the sacraments, I clearly said that those Catholics who downplay the sacraments for praying in tongues are infantile Catholics who do not understand the supernatural grace available through the sacraments. You are slandering people who object to your unauthorized interpretation of scripture regarding the gift of tongues. Just because you had some bad experience from people misusing the gift of tongues, it does not give you the freedom to attack the proper use of the gift and brand all Catholics who pray in tongues as “faking it” using their will power. It is a genuine gift, many priests, bishops and even Pope John Paul 2 prayed in tongues. Now go ahead and say they are all faking it!! You are on the wrong side here by making such preposterous claims.
I have given scriptural reference and teachings from Church fathers to substantiate my point of view. My view is consistent with long held Catholic Teaching. If you disagree please back up your view with any teaching that you might find in the Catholic world. Otherwise this discussion will be futile.
Here the Catholic Bishops give an interpretation on that portion of scripture. www.usccb.org/bible/1corinthians/14 , it is very consistent with the charismatic gift of praying in tongues, where when you pray in spirit you speak to God, it is a form of personal prayer. I have experienced it, so have many priests, bishops and even Pope John Paul 2. Also many saints throughout church history have experienced this gift while in ecstatic prayer. St. Therese the little Flower talks about this in her writings. She used to sing in Spirit if I can remember. By taking a negative stand you are not being consistent with Catholic teachings. You start to sound more like the radical traditionalists who on a daily basis attack the Holy Father, they don’t believe in the charismatic dimension of the church either.
@@bpcathcrusader4952 That's such a random explanation - What does USCCB say to authenticate your point? And also can you addresss the 4 points that I have stated in the video - I dont understand what you disagree with it
Song on Fire I vehemently disagree with your statement that the gift of tongues are only those tongues that are understood in other natural languages. (Xenolalia) It’s also referred to by St. Paul as a prayer language, with which you can pray in the Holy Spirit directly communicating with God and not understood by others(Glossolalia). The USCCB is not at all vague at their references to the gift of tongues and their operation. You are just entrenched in your circular reasoning to accept that it also operates as a prayer Language.
It is not Catholic perspective. It is only your misunderstanding. Quote all Bible worses on the subject and not one or two worses like the protestants. Don't spread ignorance.
He's not spreading ignorance. The modern Charismatic stuff all comes from Protestantism. It's not authentically Catholic.
@@T_frog1 do you mean to say Catholicism is not biblical ?
@@wilsonjoseph4020 I'm saying that the modern Charismatic stuff is not Biblical. It started in 1967 after some wayward Catholics went to a Protestant prayer meeting.
@@T_frog1 charismatic is not modern it is from Lord Jesus and Apostles speaking in different toungs, healing the sick, perching the Kingdom of God etc. Only the wayward lost it and now don't want to return also.
@@wilsonjoseph4020 Jesus never "spoke in tongues". And the Apostles spoke actual languages, not the mindless babbling of modern Charismatics.
please read Paul's letter to better under the gift of tongues. this guys is splitting the church with wrong information
Did you check with the Holy Spirit before posting this video??
Any gift is for the edification of the church
Even Songs on fire is a gift from God to edify the church
Be very careful while making videos on such sensitive topics
Especially do not blame anybody bluntly even if they are wrong
That's is God's job to judge
All the best
Is there anything wrong with the video Linda ?
Your experience is not at all the Catholic charismatic experience on tongues.
That is your answer? Why don't you answer my question? Do you know what the Church has to say about it ?
Already stated it below. There are church fathers who thought the gift of tongues ceased, there are church fathers who believed it still active. The Church has no definitive teaching on how it works because it’s a supernatural gift of the Holy Spirit. Same way healings and miracles still happen in the Church today
@@bpcathcrusader4952 That was not my question! What is the difference between Speaking in Tongues in Public and praying in Tongues?
Look at Sebin Benjamin’s answer below, it’s well thought out from the scripture as taught by St. Paul. I know you’ve had bad experiences as you shared in your video but misuse of gifts by certain people does not mean to throw away the gift, we should teach the proper use of the gifts as a good Catholic.
@@bpcathcrusader4952 Sure !! Tell me what is the right understanding of tongues - Why are dodging my question?