Let's Design a New Combat System for Sonic
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- Опубліковано 5 лют 2025
- It's pretty impressive that so shortly after Final Horizon had some of the worst bosses in all of Sonic, Superstars comes in and immediately at least matches it.
It's bizarre to me that these kinds of things can even be in a game. Isn't this what playtesting is for? You see if the thing you've made is actually enjoyable? Surely they must have gotten a bunch of negative feedback about the fights in these games. Why were these things not addressed? I just don't get it.
Either way, I've been wanting to do this video for a while. So many ideas. Would they be any good? I don't know. But they're fun to come up with.
btw, I think this system could work for a 3D game as well, if it had the physics to support it.
/ pariah695
ko-fi.com/pari...
One idea I always had for the ring system is that when you enter a boss arena, they entire mechanic changes and rings become converted into a health value just for boss fights. The amount of health you have is equivalent to how many rings you collected in the act. This would give an incentive to collect and hold onto a lot of rings again now that they removed lives from the game.
donkey kong jungle beat did that, and OH BOY, you become impossible to kill. although that's because you don't lose ALL of your bananas/rings when you get hit, so if you change that, it'd be perfect.
I don't know boss fights were you die in two hits I don't think sonic wants to turn into Cuphead levels of hard@@ehhorve857
They did something like that for the fight against Perfect Dark Gaia. You fly toward it as Super Sonic in the beginning with like 35% health. You have Dark Gaia homing projectiles incoming, meteors to avoid and rings to collect. You have the opportunity to completely fill your health guage before you reach the barrier. So how much health you start the real fight at the barrier with depends on how many rings you managed to collect (and not lose from taking damge) beforehand.
In that way, even though the gameplay is more similar to daytime Sonic with boost and all, the health gauge is a trait of the Werehog, blending the two a bit.
I honestly enjoy how Sonic Generations goes about with some of it’s bosses.
Bosses, like Perfect Chaos in particular is basically a regular Boost Stages with something to hit at the end. And if you know the stage and the fastest route, the quicker you get to hit the boss.
Honestly Generations bosses and Metal Sonic as whole is what I want Soonic fights to be
Generations was peak sonic boss material
Generations has my favorite bosses in the series
Yeah disagree with Pariah on this one. Generations was one of the few Sonic games where I actually did replay boss fights.
It always baffles me that they made the perfect blueprint on how to handle character vs character fights with Sonic and Shadow and then never capitalized on it again.
imagine if in the next Mario, you just beat the everloving shit out of Bowser Jr. instead of jumping on him
That would be hilarious
Super Mario Bros.
GONE ROGUE
I'm personally a proponent of being able to cheese boos fights versus the alternative. I also think a scoring system, a GOOD scoring system with chaining and multipliers can do so much to improve the formula. The scoring system could even tie into the gameplay like for each multiplier you have you could get an incremental speed boost and the faster you go the quicker it is to build up the multiplier, so you get this almost infinite skill ceiling where you need skill to get score and you need to get score to go faster and in order to retain that speed you need skill.
My favourite addition to Sonic Frontiers was actually those little score challenges. It's still not amazing, but I appreciate it for making me actually have to think about how to plan my routes around enemies and making sure I fight them as quickly and efficiently as possible.
I like cheesing bosses too
YUMETARO IN PFP I LOVE YOU
ever since i played ultrakill i have longed for a sonic game that had that kind of design philosophy, and this comment is exactly the kind of thing i’ve been talking about
I disagree and actually enjoy Sonic having combats elements. But I agree that it could be done much better.
Yeah I am probably going to type the same thing
I dissagree sonic should only do sonic things not street fighter things
like i don't like seeing sonic just stand there and punch a bunch of enemies in the face like a generic fighting game character that isn't like how sonic is supposed to fight
@@lauraikokoyes, but if that wasn't how the combat was handled then it would likely be engaging, like if the combat was based around outmanuvering your opponent then I'd be having a good time
@@mrhalfsaid1389as long as it highly utilizes environment and traversal then it's fine. Otherwise, we'd be on board with smacking zavok in forces.
I really like your ideas here! Arguably, the best Sonic boss battle is one that is essentially just a level (Perfect Chaos in Gens), but I do think there is some fun in the Eggman chase bosses in Unleashed, or something with the spectacle and depth of Knight in Frontiers! A mix of more level based bosses, chases, depth and spectacle would be ideal imo
Man the CD animations were really effective at transmitting the idea of "Sonic"" to you but we have literally never got anything like that. As much as I like Frontiers combat (though it does need refinements) I do believe a Sonic CD esque style of combat and general gameplay that would be peak.
I think it could work similar to Mario Odyssey. Using an interaction button would let you ride a badnik and control it to a certain degree, opening new situational moveset.
1) Copy Akiyama's moveset
2) Add some style of Yagami's style
3) ???
4) Profit
My Idea of boss fights for sonic is literally just the metal boss fight but with actual level design. Idea 1: race them(use the loops in the boss to gain more speed to get ahead of your oponent) Idea 2: the map of the boss is literally the edge of a circle, every time you hit the boss, he gets faster, and you can use the level design of the boss to gain more speed to hit the boss
That’s a cool idea, but I don’t think every boss should be like that.
I mean, Sonic's TRUE identity as an action franchise (to keep what he can do malleable) would lend itself EXCELLENTLY into a DMC3-5 styled combat system, just with punches, kicks, headbutts, and spin-bashing. "Chaos energy" in these goobers could account for how they're able to block.
I would go ALL in for a true hack n slash Sonic game, but i woud like to Sonic to fight WAY faster than Dante or Bayonetta and by that i mean removing delay-based combos with exception of the spin dash and homing attack
Also having 3 weapons based on How fast they are:
Fastest weapon =sonic's legs that kicks and let him dodge
Normal Speed weapon = someting like a sword that let him parry attacks
Slightly slow weapon= maybe a heavy glove to make him punch hard and increase his resistance
I quite like the bosses in Gens actually. Not all of them are winners but the Modern fights especially are built more like traditional stages, just with a target to deal damage to. There's less stop-and-start and the pace of the fights is usually controlled by the player.
The 0erfect Chaos fight comes to mind when I think of the boss fights from Generations, perfect mix of platforming and combat imo, I might prefer that fight over the original Perfect Chaos fight from Adventure 1
I agree. Generations is the only game where sometimes I do self-imposed boss rush. Except for Time Eater, it's trash so I treat Vector as the final boss of the game.
The main problem with this idea is the classic camera. You'd need to fully zoom out to see the whole arena for it to be a reasonable fight, because otherwise, you won't be able to *know* where the boss is until you're about to hit it, which makes the entire concept not work. Another solution would be an arrow pointing to the boss on the HUD, which I find inelegant and still slightly disorienting. At the same time, zooming it out isn't possible in a classic 2D game due to the nature of pixel art, so this would only be possible in 2.5D games. In that specific context, it can work.
However, I am of the opinion that Sonic bosses serve more as a point of spectacle, narrative tension and as a small break from the normal gameplay than actual fights. Variety is important to games to keep player attention, even if that varied content is of lower quality than the normal content, it keeps the game fresh in the player's mind, as the fights require a different, if easier, mindset to complete. By turning bosses into an extension of the normal gameplay, you remove that variety aspect, and players will get tired of the game more quickly. So this kind of boss can exist, but shouldn't be every boss.
Not to mention that nobody likes being stuck inside a closed-off maze lol
Some thoughts:
- I really like the idea of physics-based combat. As you said, it is in-line with what is cool about Sonic, and allows combat to have all the joy of movement. Damage being based on attack speed seems particularly interesting, and I would love to see future games play with that idea.
- To some extent, the Cyloop could be part of physics-based combat. Surrounding enemies with an energy field could be one interesting way of combining movement with attacking enemies, while some of Frontiers' larger enemies like Asura provide an alternate way of achieving this. Phantom Rush partially does this, but it's only a visual flair so it's less significant.
- Regarding arena design, I would argue there is a balance to be struck. The overly simplistic arenas that define much of Sonic's combat clearly do not play with his physics as much as they could, however, if a fight is *too* focused on arena gimmicks outside the boss, it ceases to feel like as much of a direct fight between Sonic and his adversary.
- Regarding rings, the ease of survival is arguably the point - this ensures the games are very accessible while also having lots of room for mastery. That said, if there is a need for greater tension in boss fights, imho a Sonic Rush-style approach would allow for greater variety in arena design than a system that requires the boss arenas to be designed around backup ring placement.
- Absolutely agreed with cutting down on the waiting. There's a reason people don't like waiting-game Sonic boss fights.
- One potential issue with your proposed Super Sonic fights is a reduction in spectacle. A key reason many players liked Frontiers' Titan fights was the sheer spectacle of anime-protagonist Sonic in action, and so while it is important to make sure Super fights use a version of Sonic's normal combat, it ought to be done in a high-spectacle way.
ok that's all
Wow, I really love your concepts of how to change the boss fights in sonic. Keeping in mind sonic was always based on speed/momentum based platforming, you’d think the developers would base the boss fights around that mindset. Continue doing great work pal! 😊
Dude is spitting shit morden sonic has that
Look at advance 2
I think Frontiers for the 3D games did a goob job at trying to give Sonic a moveset that canbe used in the overworld. In terms of Classic Sonic, Superstars actually gave us some fun boss fights, but the issue with those is that they are too long and tied with the act. What they should do is go back to the Rush games where those were long, make the patterns worth a damn to pay attention too, but also make them fun and in tune with Sonic.
I think they went too far with big numbers and attacks that are too similar. You can feasibly cut the amount of attacks in half and accomplish the same thing.
If I'm being honest, I spent a lot of time in Superstar boss fights chasing the emerald powers: Avatar army and supersonic really help cut down the monotony
they should just make all the attacks come out super fast, it would be fun chaos
What if in fights like Fang or the pterodactyl, you could do more than one hit's worth of damage by hitting the boss with enough speed.
@@ElleQuach wasn't that the problem with some mini bosses of frontiers, specially silver hammer
Love your idea pitch videos! They always get me to look at Sonic design in a unique way :)
I routinely describe this channels to my friends as the archetypical Sonic gaming channel except good and also not just about Sonic. That’s probably a terrible description, but but it seems to make people give it a chance, which although it is reductive is a useful gateway to a good gaming channel. Please keep giving your honest take on games, especially those those that do or could give give a pure gaming experience. Even if major developers don’t take notice of your critiques hopefully someone eventually will. Thanks again for the earnest take on something many people care about. Please never change.
*adds rings to the corner of the marble stage
...oh look, it's pacman
*proceeds to explain the strategy of saving them
..oh, it's literally pacman
So what? Just because Pac-Man did it first doesn't mean that only Pac-Man can do it.
@@wildberrysherbert3803 did...I say sonic couldn't do pacman?
i mean pacman is great and sonic is great so hell yeah
In my opinion, this felt like a boss dynamic more than a "new combat system for sonic".
20:26 Genius, now I wish this was the case in every Sonic game ever.
Also, your drawings remind me of the game called N+. :D
Here’s the ideal sonic combat system:
- Jump on enemies
- Roll into enemies
boring, give us hedgehog may cry 💯
23:42 What if all your dropped rings converted into only 1/5th of the amount of rings you had, and when the amount of rings is lower than 5 you drop nothing. This way you can't exploit rings and you have the reason to collect more. Or maybe don't drop rings at all and when taking damage just leave 1/5th of them (or with a different number)
In unleashed you didn't drop rings when hurt and couldn't pick them back up so it's been done before
@@The_Last_Pacyeah but you would also get tons of rings. Iirc you also didn't lose them all at once either, right?
My idea for ring drop rate works on a formula depending on how many times you got hit. As you got hit more and more, you would drop more rings. A simple version of the formula could be 5+2X, with X being the amount of times you get hit. So you get hit once, you drop 7. You get hit twice, you drop nine, and so on and so forth. Perhaps even add increasing levels of damage depending on the 'strength' of the attack.
If you get hit enough, you eventually start losing more rings then you drop total. While this effect won't be noticable at first, if you get hit enough times, even if you collect every ring you drop, you'll soon find yourself running low on supplies.
This would prevent damage boosting strategies because if you simply tried to chug through with only one or two rings eventually the secondary formula will delete those rings, thus providing incentive for whenever you get hit to try and collect as many of those rings as possible.
@@m.2039 I think the best way would be a high intensity programming thing. Each ring could only be lost once or twice or so. And they fly further each time you got hit. That's not realistic but, idk.
It was interesting fighting The End Supreme where the hits would reduce your max rings? Which is odd for Super Sonic since his rings already count down. But idk, it's weird lol
i can totally get by with the spinball boss ! But i also belive a little bit of cool "Anime-esque fighting" could be sprinkled in them, even if only visual
I also think unique interactions could be considered: For example; in your fire themed boss fight, sonic has to get a fire shield to hit the boss fight... but if you manage to hit a certain spot in the level at full speed, you break the whole area, causing the lava to rise and platform your way to get one final hit on the boss.
Those cool moments should be unintrusive to the actual fight, and could either be hardcoded in the fight and give you some shiny extra for figuring it out, or be absent in the fight unless you do a special thing in prior levels. which could also incentivise exploration even more
I don't think the Sonic franchise would work without bosses because it's grounded on the conflict between Sonic and Eggman. Those giant robots are part of its DNA.
In 2D, I think the answer is surprisingly simple. Use Mania's Death Egg Robot in Green Hill as a template. It utilizes the physics, has proper attacks to avoid, you can speed it up with skill but not to the point of neutering it. Frankly, the "too much waiting" and scripted bosses are endemic of 2D platformers as a whole, not just Sonic.
3D is more complicated but they already have some good ingredients with Frontiers, the big problem is that they can't seem to design enemies that use them. Can't recognize what makes them work or fail. They need design guidelines such as "attacks to parry should move towards Sonic at uniform speed" like Wyvern's missiles and "attacks with long unclear wind-ups should be dodged". Simplify Sonic's moveset and telegraph incoming attacks so the player alternates between dodging and attacking. Spark 3 sorta does this but also feels undeveloped. Apart from parrying (which could be removed), that fits with Sonic's usual depiction in cutscenes.
bluds starting to sound like Anthony Fantano 😂💀
I'm surprised you didn't bring up the Unleashed running bosses because they capture the spirit of what Sonic is about to me. Yeah Colors and Forces made them stale, but the way they depict Sonic's sense of movement in the running track dodge jumping and homing attacking the booses make it feel like Sonic. The way the camera angles are done and shaking capture the intense speed Sonic is known for.
They're not bad. But gameplay-wise, still not the best. They mostly boil down to quickstep sections.
@@miadatenshi9903we have very different ideas about where the strengths and appeal of the boost games actually lie
@@miadatenshi9903 Yeah, we definitely don’t agree at all.
@@Pariah6950sonic advance 2 bosses are different
@@technicallyinept2120what's your idea of the boost games' appeal?
You’re absolutely right, Rings are a flawed health system. Because all that matters is if you have a single ring then you basically are invincible. Even if sonic has 400 rings in his inventory all it takes to kill him is 2 hits. One hit to knock away his rings, and another hit to kill him when he has zero rings.
I would even be fine with sonic having call of duty style regeneration of health where you just wait it out and you’ll be at full health. But imagine a videogame where if you have 100 HP it won’t matter cuz taking one hit of damage puts you immediately at 1 HP and then another hit will kill you, That’s sonic rings system! I liked the Sonic Battle health bar with the heal move you could do. I wanna see a platformer sonic game with the Battle health bar and heal button.
But keep in mind this would work better in Frontiers or other 3D sonic games. My Battle HP bar idea might not work at all with 2D games.
The irony about suggesting to remove the "pick rings back up" part of the system is that Forces literally did this, but fans hated it on principle so much even before the game came out that they just up and changed the system in a day 1 patch.
So even though it would work, the fanbase at large just viscerally rejects it at such a level that SEGA quietly undid it.
I heard some people that hates that the rings you collect fall when you get hit in superstars’so people are really a mystery
They did it Unleashed.
Funnily enough, the concept of a large arena with rings around and a moving boss is the kind of stuff you often see in 3D Sonic games. It really just needs more emphasis on physics with the terrain to be pretty much what you described.
Chaos 4:*exists*
I think the ring system is so forgiving because getting hit at high speeds when you’re unfamiliar with a level can be very frustrating to a new player. It prevents the first few playthroughs from discouraging future playthroughs. Perhaps we can make it harder to exploit by changing the rings physics. For example, instead of exploding in all directions, they all fly opposite the direction you were traveling, so going to get them is more of a time sink, as oppose to the current way where you’re likely to pick one up as soon as you get back up. Or reducing the time it takes for them to disappear. Maybe in boss fights they fly further away so you don’t have time to both use the i-frames and recollect the ring. You have to choose between long term safety or short term advantage.
I think it would still be plenty forgiving if you couldn't pick them back up. Rings are everywhere. You just need to survive until you get to the next one. Probably no more than a few seconds in most cases.
Still on that physics breakdown video pariah
Even if you'll do nothing with these ideas, it's not like they'll go to waste. What if a game desiner sees this video? You never know..
Pariah. Please tell me you’ve played The Pathless. And please let me know how you feel about Sonic bosses being like that.
Haven't played it yet. But I want to.
@@Pariah6950 the chases in that game are insane. Using Sonics speed to catch up and beat bosses in a large, nonautomated, open world with slopes and hills would be amazing. Hope you play it some day.
The journalists praising Superstars's bosses is yet another solid proof they don't know anything about Sonic gameplay. These bosses would be good for a Mario or DK game, but not Sonic.
The one problem here is this doesn’t at all translate to 3D.
My favorite Sonic games are unironically the ones which give bossfights their own zone.
That is one of the reasons why I like Generations so much. I can ignore all the bullshit I don't want to do in that game.
Though the bossfights in Generations are actually not to bad...exception for the final one.
Yes! I definitely agree that bosses in Sonic should really emphasize the main mechanics of the game, and I think that incorporating the environment into boss fights really helps that. But you know what could theoretically be even better? Having the environment not just be _part_ of the boss fight, but _be_ the boss fight. That way, you could _technically_ get rid of bosses while still keeping the title. We've gotten bits of those before (the race with Metal Sonic and the running sections of the Dark Gaia fight come to mind), but they could really explore the level design if they went all in. Maybe there are weak spots across the level that you have to hit, a stricter time limit you have to keep track of, some verticality mixed into the design, hazards and enemies to avoid along the way, etc.. And each one could be uniquely-built based on the setting, or whichever giant Eggman mech you'd be fighting. Just like a normal Sonic level, except more difficult and more free for experimentation. Traversal *is* Sonic's bread and butter, so having the player battle what's essentially the environment would be pretty fitting.
(Now that I think about it, if they'd made scaling the Titans a large, elaborate level it would've been so fun and cool to play. It would've also had the effect of making them seem more grand. They seem so tiny when compared to the Light Gaia Colossus from Unleashed).
Ah yes! Like bringing a house down! Wrecking walls and furnitures! I love this idea!
That's the thing I didn't like about the titan fights. They're basically just regular enemies but bigger.
Pariah, you absolutely read my fucking mind with this video oh my lord lol. Ive been advocating this for years and am so glad someone else is out there thinking more like this because this absolutely makes the most sense how you go about a Sonic boss and combat in general. You even got the “more momentum = harder hit” concept which spooked me a little because I thought I was the only one to think that lol.
For what I’ve always said about Frontiers and how it executed its combat, instead of just copying zelda or gow, making all the enemy encounters on boring Super Smash Bros’s Final Destination esque areas, what game they should’ve _actually_ studied from was Doom / Doom Eternal, where learning the level layout for their enemy arenas was key. Disregard the fact that its a FPS. In those games, the enemies were were dynamic and more importantly, the level design when you fought the demon hoards were specifically multi-tiered and interactive like you swing on polls and shit. The sense of flow with the enemy interaction and the level of parkouring should’ve been essential for Frontiers. You putting up this video just reinforces what should’ve always been done.
23:42 There's only one thing that Sonic 4 did right, and that was the ring system. In that game, as you get hit, the rings become more and more scattered in directions until a point where you can no longer pick them up.
Regarding the ring system, I feel that removing the recovery option is killing the essence of the ring, if it is used as in Sonic 4, the more you are hit, the further the ring jumps to the point of disappearing from the screen it would work much better, it depends from your skill how much damage the boss did to you
I don’t mind Sonic throwing punches and kicks but having him spinball all over the place would also be cool.
I’d love a race to the finish with a specific amount of robots to destroy and to finish in time, for example, defeat 50 robots and get to the sign post before 2 minutes
Black Knight actually does something similar to the Ring system change you mentioned; You start with a certain set of Rings and every hit shaves off a chunk of them, so you have a limited number of hit points to finish the boss off before you die.
ok i LOVE the idea that momentum would effect damage, i think that's an idea that could work for a pacman world game aswell, which is another game with mixed boss fights and combat
yeah honestly i wouldn’t mind having boss fights be cutscenes instead
I honestly don't think that the pinball idea is that great of a concept, i mean i imagine itd be closer to that collision chaos boss in practice, and thats not all too fun. What i like are the bosses in generations, cuz you're essentially playing a normal level but the obstacles are mostly the bosses attacks and you use the level and said attacks to smack the boss faster, honestly these are so well designed for the most part and i would go back to play these just whenever
Perfect Chaos in Sonic Adventure is great because its built like a level where the way to attack him is to get to him as fast as possible with enough momentum and stuff.
i think not recollecting rings would be good, but not every attack should take all your rings. they could take diff amounts depending on strength, but it would be a good incentive to play the levels well, so you can take more hits on the boss. i think this design sounds rly good for 2D, i am intersected what u think for 3D bosses. i think bosses that use some platforming like bio lizard or egg golem are good
Alternatively, make an actual healthbar and have rings be just the currency to buy stuff instead
@@domovoi2861that's not a sonic game then
@@Lonelysum suuuure
In Sonic Frontiers level with the Pinball Machine, I said Sonic so have been the ball for that level instead of playing a giant pinball machine, and Sonic boss level is based on Pinball would work. And I noticed that almost all Sonic games have a pinball level in them.
I always imagined it should be Subspace Emissary with an arcady momentum damage multiplier
Someone please take some this ideas and try then on a fan game, this sound so good!!!
I'm not gonna lie, I REALLY like the idea of more pinball playfield styled arenas.
10:56 probably the reason why they keep making bosses is because there is people who enjoy them and like them ‘you can’t really tell them to stop making something you don’t enjoy and ignore the people who actually enjoy it
I feel for this Pinball style of boss fight, there should be like a super difficult one hit kill you could do for them by getting the _absolute_ max amount of speed plausible, and then when you hit them with this one hit kill, Sonic goes directly through them just like he does any other regular enemy. And then Eggman or whoever gets launched out and Team Rockets away. That might make them too easy, so maybe just have that special finishing animation for defeating them with a really fast hit.
that ring system would make it the Dark Souls of Sonic
in a good way, of course, love the idea
If every zone needs a boss, let's follow the Mario land/world idea where Bowser only appears in 3 of the 8 world's, and have a miniboss on the other worlds. Minibosses can be short and simple, while Eggman bosses can be much more complicated and tense. Maybe each miniboss has an emerald that gives you a power, instead of special stages that way they can actually develop levels around the power instead of making bonus areas that kinda sorta acknowledge that you got the emerald. You can even make bosses weak to certain emerald powers like the bosses in colors.
My first thought when seeing the title was "Why bother, when the combat is almost never the fun part of any game", but I agree with the parts about returning to using a bit more from pinball again and never having boss immunity times, as those will help push it into matching the Sonic gameplay better & being less like a normal video game combat. Some of these ideas would make the combat too complex though, which I think will just backfire.
"God of war is just baby's first Devil may cry"
Thank you!!!
I think the best way a boss could be handled in a sonic game is for making it a harder stage, like in sonic unleashed dark gaia boost sections, you go trough a lot of obstacles and attack the boss in the end if you're fast enough. Challenging and it doesn't run away from sonic's core gameplay.
I think Sonic Unleashed has pretty good boss fights. They all play out as fast paced bullet hells where you chase Eggman. Pretty fitting if you ask me.
I think the best bosses in Sonic are always the "chase" types where you have to keep up with the enemy. Examples being Metal Sonic in CD, a lot of the Advance bosses and the Egg Dragoon in Generations.
You should always think of what way Sonic's speed can be incorporated into them.
Pariah has good ideas, but at the same time I don’t just want to throw away what frontiers tried to do. So here’s my two rings:
You take sonic frontiers combat, and simplify it. Make it a little more physics based. Like you said, sonic fights by throwing himself at the enemy, so every attack sonic does, he launches forward at the enemy. You could also introduce the idea of knock back into the combat system, not just for enemies to enhance the combat experience but also to you, so dealing heavy attacks to enemies knock you back too. It would feel like your hopping form one Enemy to the next. The combat would be all about combining moves whilst fighting the knock back to throw yourself at the enemy more.
check out sonic momentum, i think it does the combat well
only issue is how weak the enemies are
It's kind of funny when you think about it that your proposed solution to the problem of Sonic bosses being bad is just for them to actually engage the core mechanics. It's bizarre that most Sonic bosses don't do that. CD probably got the closest to what you're describing in that a lot of its boss acts have pieces of level design either leading up to the boss fight or as part of the boss fight, but it's still a far cry from the ideal.
In terms of designing combat for a Sonic game, I thought it'd be great to expand on the idea of Shadow's Chaos boost from 06. In that the more enemies you defeat, the faster and strong you'll get as well as unlocking new abilities, therefore being able to beat the level quicker. Could work like a DMC style meter in that it decreases over time (and decreases faster if you get hit) and you need to collect rings or beat enemies to keep it high. Beating enemies could also evolve something less mindless than a homing attack, something that would require aim or counters/parries or takes advantage of your accrued speed.
no no you're absolutely right. i think especially applying the boss fight mechanics to minor enemies as well. Like, how you said the faster sonic goes, the more damage he applies when he's rolling, so if he isn't going fast enough he might not destroy a badnik AND he may get pushed back a little bit, hendering his progress toward the end just a little. It would encourage maintaining high speed, AND is consistent with how players should expect to engage with enemies. new players will have an interesting time learning the mechanics, and experienced players will be engaged even in replays because they are challenged still to go fast.
Sonic needs a Rocket Knight Adventures trajectory-based system for combat, or a running "bullet hell".
15:18 I'd love to hear about that. Maybe a vid on all the things that influenced the gameplay of a few major sonic games (or even just sonic 1)
First. I definitely agree that having a combat system like DMC or something feels of for a character like Sonic. It just feels like he needs to move a lot.
Second I do def think you are going in the best idea with one thing I think is missing.
I think you should also count almost a level like bosses as on thing this series should do as well.
Basically what I think outside of Casino night type bosses where momentum creates intresting bosses. I think bosses where they are actually levels themselves are also are great fights.
Basically Generations Perfect Chaos and Metal Sonic as a whole.
To me Generations Perfect Chaos literally is just a level that acts like a boss fight. And I think there has to be more bosses like that
but also Metal Sonic. To me character at worse gets a "ok" but at his best I think it's an amazing fight and an amazing idea for rival bosses(which is one of the reasons why he is the best rival >:))
CD is again a level disgused as a boss but unlike a time attack you have to keep Metals attacks in check.
Sonic 4's run and hit bosses imo is really fun as well and Metal race again is fun.
Generation bosses outside of Death Egg are fun overall
Triple Trouble fight is his worst again that 1 room thing...
Forces is a run and hit type and it's just ok.
Heroes is a super fight
Superstars is a very... very basic version of a combination between his Sonic 4 and mania fight.
And Mania is probably one of his best fights. It still acts like a level but it has spectacle and Metal attacks much more, it has an interesting momentum use with Silver Sonic and fight ends with mechanically not as good but spectacle wise a fun final fight with Metal Sonic Kai.
Perfect Chaos in Gens is fun. But I'd argue it's not a very good boss because it's just a level. That's not a boss fight.
@@Pariah6950I mean technically Perfect Chaos does attack you as you try to race towards it, and you do attack him so snzisndhsldix
Yeah, I’m joking. You’re 100% correct
@@Pariah6950 Thats exactly my point
There are certainly many ways to structure a boss fight. One idea I had while watching is that you don't fight it directly, but rather use the environment to cause damage. The thing is, when you can't immediately stop and turn from left to right, dodging attacks is more restricted, so I think this reactionary game where you see an attack and change your direction to dodge it doesn't work that well here. Instead, maybe it's better to integrate the boss into the level like having a race and if you reach a switch in time, you can close a gate that the boss will then smash into. The one at 13:05 also made me think of dragging a rope around its feet and the faster you are, the longer the boss will be unable to move.
honestly for the ring system i think they could do something similar to gunstar heroes where there's no max health cap but attacks take a certain amount of rings, so it still encourages you to collect as many rings as possible while keeps some level of challenge especially for the 3d games
Meanwhile Spark 3 having better combat, better gameplay and better levels
better levels my a-
My favorite bosses in Sonic were Biolizard, Perfect Chaos, The Generations versions of Silver and Egg Dragoon, and Lancelot Returns. I felt pretty engaged with these compared to others. Egg Emperor is good by Heroes standards and caps off the campaigns nicely enough.
11:21 And this can apply to everything in life, just because something works for someone or something else, doesn't mean it works well with you or that something you are working on. If you have to take anything of this video, takes this comment from Pariah don't do or put stuff because of tradition or works for others, do or put stuff because it's the right call.
28:40 lmfao I was imagining eggman but it’s fnaf and he’s opening and closing the door to sonic and friends
It'd be interesting to look at the Sonic-inspired indie games and fangames to compare their approach to boss fights. I know for one that the Freedom Planet games actually have some great boss fights in them.
I like these ideas like the 5 or so rings being spread out during a boss fight could also give you a bonus if you’re holding them all like you get a damage buff or movement speed bonus until you get hit and lose them but there could be something you could do to trigger respawning rings once or twice.
I think another boss fight design could be like Eggman moving on a track or just over wobbly ground and having sonic do his downward bounce to flip the floor tiles or break a part of the floor up breaking the path for Eggman to move along so he either gets slowed down, stopped or crashed into debris giving you time to hit him or something
Dude you're a genius
it's videos like these where i wish they actually amounted to something, but i doubt SEGA will even see this video, which is sad
at least you proved how easy it is to fix bosses and how hard it is for a AAA company
I see what you mean. Two of my fave Sonic bosses, Egg Emperor (Gens) and Perfect Chaos (Gens) feels more like Sonic levels than Sonic bosses. Where there’s barely any waiting and you can keep up the pace and get skilled at beating them like a level.
Actually, I do go back to the bosses. HD Dark Gaia, Generations Perfect Chaos, Egg Reverie (as much as I don't like Mania), Supreme End (as conflicted as I am about Final Horizon), hell, before I actually fought Knight in Frontiers I made sure to make another save just so I can go back to the previous one and fight him any time I want.
19:14 This actually reminds me of Sonic Spinball's Showdown stage which is trying to constantly follow Eggman trying to escape flying away toward space and having to chase them through physics and platforming (tho SS has some sucky platforming controls), applying this idea to a Boss Fight of a decently big sized level to move around and play with the physics to damage the boss and not just finish it in 10 seconds on a single not-moving screen is a pretty good start and giving more damage depending on how fast you go is a great way to reward properly calculated speed
Now, I will agree some of your opinions. I like the idea of fighting the enemies using the physics in mind. And I like your idea of Sonic's health system(for 2D Sonic games at least).
But you saying Sonic should not do punches and kicks, or not have a combat system, I will respectfully disagree with you. To me, I like the idea and concept of Sonic's combat being like "Devil May Cry" or "Metal Gear Rising." To me(in terms of Sonic's gameplay-style, amd character), Sonic's fighting style should not always be him using his body to charge or dash at enemies.
Why not have Sonic do punching and kicking too? He can still use his body to attack like a pinball, but he should also fight with his fists. I also want him to fight like an anime character. I can see it in Frontiers.
Sonic having a combat system can work. There's one game in particular I believe works. You have Sonic fighting with his fists with, I guess, somewhat physics in them, that being "Sonic Battle" for the GameBoy Advance.
In combat, Sonic can knock enemies far. If an enemy is slamed to a wall, they take damage. After that an enemy takes damage, they will fly off a little bit and fall flat to the ground to recover. There's a trick you can use to damage the enemy more using the combat and the environment around you. Here's an example:
When Sonic fights an enemy near a wall, you can knock the enemy back to get it slamed by a wall quickly. And when the enemy takes damage, bounces off a little bit, and is about to hit the ground, you can knock it back again to the same wall. You can knock the enemy back to the same wall multiple times, as long as you don't let the enemy hit the floor.
I think Sonic's combat in "Sonic Battle" work great. That to me, is how Sonic's combat should work. You can have Sonic having a combat system, but with physics just as you just said. Sonic having combat system can work if we take the physics into consideration. Let's think about two things:
1) You can have Sonic using his body, punches and kicks to fight against enemies. But you have to use physics, just as you said, to defeat them. The damage the enemy takes depends on how fast or slow you attack is.
2) You can have a health system concept like in Unleashed. Collect rings to replenish your health. If your HP reaches to 0, you die.
Conclusion:
I think Sonic can have a "Devil May Cry" combat system, but you have to use the physics to defeat them. It will make Sonic fight like an anime character and fight like a pinball. It will keep you engaged in the fight, while finding a way to fight an enemy using the physics in mind. That's my overall opinion.
Ok, I _REALLY_ hope a fangame incorporates that 'damage relative to speed' idea.
I really like the idea, and the video. I personally love when you go "This is what I like about Sonic games and this is what I think they could do to cater more to what I like", it's an interesting thought experiment.
I have only 2 "complaints": it's very hit-focused, and it's very Sonic-focused.
This description of a boss fight, while very, very cool, really focuses around playing as Sonic, the character. Amy, for example, shouldn't really play like that. Neither should Tails, or Rouge, or, depending on how you're taking him, Shadow.
I think for the concept of a SONIC boss fight, it's a very good concept. But I think for the concept of a boss fight in a Sonic game, it's a bit limited. I'd love to see what you could come up with for Tails/Knuckles/Amy/etc.
Of course, I also feel that the separate characters need to have more separate gameplay styles than they really do now, but that's just me.
With regards to the hit focus, you brought up something in the video that I think could be capitalized upon further. You mention intricate level designs which, when combined with precise gameplay earned through skill, reward the player with faster times and higher score and such. And you definitely lean into that intricacy with your concept, but I feel as though it's still a bit limited.
You describe arenas in which boss fights occur, but I wonder whether an entire zone which is a boss fight could work.
Think of it like the Metal Sonic race, in which you have the entire zone to get what you want, but, the further you go, the less time you have.
The whole zone is dedicated to fighting the boss. The boss pursues you, or you pursue the boss, but, in any case, the boss is moving forward with you, and you have to defeat them before you reach the end, for whatever reason.
This, I feel, kinda "excuses" the level design being tailored for the boss, since it's not an arena that exists solely for the boss, it's you using the level design that's already there to defeat the boss.
This also makes a normal zone a lot more challenging and dangerous. Let's assume that you're going for a "perfect" run, so: the most rings, the highest score, all in the shortest time. You're already fighting hard to get those rings and hit/avoid those enemies, and that challenge is suddenly amplified a lot when, say, Eggman is there, and he sets the zone in front of you on fire, and you have to jump on the convenient platforms quickly and suddenly to avoid the hit.
As you say, most people don't play like that, but maybe if they Have to, they will?
I also had the thought of an entire zone dedicated to defeating the boss, but you're not fighting them throughout, only at the end. However, throughout the level, you can do certain things that make the fight easier. Let's say there's shield generators, or power generators, or something, spread throughout a normal zone that ends in a normal boss, but, because you found and destroyed all the generators before you encountered the boss, you can defeat them in one hit, like a normal enemy. On the flip side, if you don't destroy any of them, you have to not only hit them multiple times, but also do specific timing, like a current "normal" Sonic boss. That would use the waiting as a punishment and a hurdle that can be avoided, rather than tedium you're forced through. Leaning into that intricacy concept.
An additional thought is what if one of the boss arenas you mention here IS the boss? Let's say it's the final boss, and let's say it's the Death Egg, and you have to destroy the station as Eggman fights and tries to stop you. Or maybe it's some kind of GIGANTIC mech, and you have to trick Eggman into hitting himself. I'm not as sure about that one, but I think it Could work.
I really enjoyed this video, and the thought process behind this comment. I had a lot of fun thinking about this with you, so many thanks.
I'd love to see you abstractly design a Sonic game, i.e. you're the ideas guy and give it to a programmer who makes it real.
I think that's called a producer, actually.
Why wouldn't it fit the other characters? They too have momentum based gameplay, so it should work out fine. Besides, in most of the good Sonic games, all characters share the same bosses, with Knuckles occasionally having a hard mode version of it. So really, it's not really a problem.
Haven't started watching the video yet so this might be in the video but I think Sonic should have something similar to witch time from Bayonetta.
EDIT: He didn't really talk about 3D combat.
He said that combat doesn’t work and just leave it for the bosses with a very basic yet affective system ‘the faster you hit the boss the higher damage will be and the challenge would be the arena around it
@@2ndspringtube708that can also work exactly the same in 3D so he didn't really need to make a part focusing on 3D combat
Boy is this a long comment! Feel free to read each paragraph or all of it if you feel like it.
To be fair, the problem of forgetful, mediocre, or even bad bosses isn't just a problem for Sonic, that is also the case for most 2D and 3D platforming games. I mean, is Mario known to have great boss battles? (Well I am not too big on Mario so really, does Mario have great bosses? Strictly platforming games speaking)
While your idea is good and all but there is also a matter of execution. If you are going to make the arena bigger, you also might want to zoom out the view or somehow indicate where the boss is or something. And while that idea works well for Eggman on Eggmobile or whatever, what happens if Sonic is up against Metal Sonic, Knuckles, Shadow, or other characters that leads to a character vs character battle?
As for the ring recovery, either make it completely unrecoverable or only 1/5 of it recoverable. (no ring to recover if less than 5) As for ring loss during the boss battle, you can lose a maximum of 10-30 or more or all rings depending on the difficulty level and the severity of the boss's attack. That way if you collected a lot of rings, you could afford a lot of hits.
Or you could have a percentage of rings lost for example if you reach the boss with 330 rings collected, it would display 330/330 once you reach the boss and if you lose 10%-20% of rings, you would lose 33-66 rings with each hit.
Or you can have both where you lose 20-40 rings depending on the severity of the hit or difficulty level or 20%-40% of rings, whichever is bigger.
Or there can be a boss stage where you start with 0 rings, the boss arena has a limited amount of rings and you can't get your rings back if you take the hit. Come to think of it, there are some boss battles in some Sonic games where you can't recover the rings. Though I do know you didn't really like the way they did it. (Sonic Advanced 2 came to mind)
Fun Fact: Spark the Electric Jester 3 got the attention of Morio Kishimoto, the prominent member of the Sonic Team. Three things.
1. While the combat in Spark 3 is much better than in Spark 2, I still wouldn't call it super amazing. And I am sure neither would you Pariah695.
2. That was a Spark thing to do.
And 3. The combat system is more or less separate from the traversal (the Sonic and Spark way to do it) which can be a criticism towards Spark the Electric Jester 3.
You could argue that Freedom Planet is where the idea of combat mechanics for Sonic or Sonic-like games originated and the pros of it are you take the damage from enemy attacks rather than contact damage. As Sabrina Deduro once said, it is also a matter of using your attacks that adds to traversal which is what she and her crew did. I mean for example (and I'm using Freedom Planet 2 as an example cause it did very good) we have Lilac that has a dragon boost which is not only an attack but also propels forward or upwards which also ricoches from walls. Or Cyclone which boosts your jumps.
Or in the case of Carol, she throws her disc and then flies towards it, or air kick that propels forward which is used by speedrunners. Or in the case of Milla that has cube blast which has a knockback that can be used to propel forward.
And a nice cherry on top, we have a dodge move which helps avoid some attacks and I can imagine that is so Sonic thing to do. As a matter of fact, Spark could dash parry (or dash dodge) in Spark the Electric Jester 1.
dude , i love when you make videos like that sharing your ideas in wha can be done with sonic , how ever , i really recommend you to play sonic momentum made by Bean Studio , it is one of the best sonic fan games that make a combat system for sonic designed around plat forming , here are some of the videos from Bean Studio which you could find in you tube that could help you in how to play that game :
Combat In The New Modern 2D Sonic Game
Reinventing Tails’ Moveset in 2D Sonic Games
Sonic's Momentum In The Latest 2D Entry Explained
i hope you give it a shot
What about converting your rings to some kind of health bar where every 10 rings is like a hit point you can take when you reach the boss fight of that level?
That would encourage wanting to collect rings during the actual levels if you are struggling with the boss fight at the end
I really love this idea for 2D Sonic, but for 3D Boost Sonic (or even just 3D Sonic in general) I am perfectly fine with bosses like Perfect Chaos in Generations (just hopefully more involved and challenging) where it’s just a full fledged level, where the boss attacks you from a far distance away and you occasionally cross paths with the boss and can land an attack. That way it is basically just another stage, but with a twist.
13:50 One problem though, that style of combat only really works for classic sonic. Sonic has gotten a lot faster, stronger, and skilled since his early adventures. So it makes sense that he would rely on a variety of speed based attacks rather than assuming that he could spinball his way through most enemies. Besides this wouldn’t be the 1st time Sonic would have to rely on a new gimmick that could work with his gameplay. Sonic battle did something similar.
I personally find it to be a rush to find the best possible way to deliver those repeated jumps to finish off the boss quickly, and I think you could even fit that into the design you suggested with momentum delivering more and more damage. Perhaps if you face the boss while super, it becomes a game of cat and mouse where eggman is fleeing from you and if you can catch him you'll be able to get some of those repeated hits in, and perhaps when eggman gets more and more damaged he's more frantic and you have to maneuver more mid-air to keep bouncing on him.
Lots of solid points. I wouldn't mind if true boss fights were completely absent from a new Sonic. What's important to me is a satisfying capstone to each segment of the game. I think Sonic has already done this with sequences like the Metal Sonic race and Metal Harbor's rocket launch, and to a lesser extent the ends of levels in Team Sonic's story in Heroes.
23:09 Bionicle mask
I like the physics- and momentum-based platforming in the Sonic games so, of course, finding a way to implement those into the boss fights too would be great. But I also enjoy the many contraptions and gimmicks of different zones, so adding more ways to interact with the environment of the boss fight arena would be extra awesome.
And a possible solution for the rings problem could be to have the boss absorb your rings when you take damage but also release them back if you manage to land a hit of your own, kinda like a tug-of-war.
Also, multiple boss themes help. Learned that from the Freedom Planet games.
Hey, if I do something like this for some sort of 3D boss fight would you be interested in trying to fight out to make sure it works?
Unleashed has a solid foundation for combat moves, mechanics and enemies, and Frontiers is an alright implementation of combat for Sonic combat.
It just needs to be implemented well into Sonic. Give him and his enemies different attack attribute (like Knockback, guard breaks, and maybe Bleed). Give it counters and dodge abilities, and the good ol' DMC concentration meter.
I know you'll disagree with what I have to say, Pariah, but Unleashed is a good foundation for combat and Frontiers makes Sonic feel awesome in combat. Polish both and improve on what they missed, and we'll have some good combat.
I really like your ideas here, in fact I think you could do something else cool with the ring system. What if rings increase your acceleration like they did in Sonic Advance 2? Because with your proposed system, there’s really no difference between having 5 rings or having 20. If you lose em, you lose em. This way there’s a greater risk but also greater reward to grabbing all the rings in the arena at once.
Additionally, I realize this video was written with 2D Sonic in mind, but I had an idea about revamping “combat” for 3D Sonic (I use quotes because this is equal parts combat and movement mechanics). You talked about taking inspiration from Sonic animations. One I thought of is the Sonic OVA. Sonic has his own set of abilities in that movie, most take inspiration from Sonic CD, but there’s original ideas too-Something really interesting is that it seems that Sonic can roll into a ball in midair and shoot himself off in another direction, almost like he’s flying.
So, with that in mind, I thought about rethinking the Homing Attack and how it works. What if you press the jump button in midair, and Sonic spins in midair like this? Then you use like a laser pointer to aim at the enemy and shoot him off yourself. And this isn’t limited to enemies, you can just shoot yourself off in any direction, like an air dash but you have full control of the direction you go in.
But also, the thing about my homing attack is that you wouldn’t have infinite time to do it. Because Sonic wouldn’t *stop* in midair as your aiming, he would continue the trajectory of his jump as he spins, but time would slow down as you aim. The trick part is that you only get about a second to do so. If you don’t, Sonic veers off in the direction of your jump and kills your speed. Kinda like the QTEs in Sonic Unleashed, except much more engaging.
I could go on and on about my ideas for movement mechanics in Sonic, but these are the ideas I had that are most relevant to combat. Much like you, I’m just spitballing here.
22:10 It's funny, because your idea resembles the second boss in sonic Advance 3. I mean not quite, because that boss doesn't really use proper physics, but the ideas are still there.
But one type of boss fight I think works perfectly well for Sonic is the race against Metal Sonic in Sonic CD. What I like about it is you're not just confined to a tiny area, it's still a regular level (that could potentially have multipe paths to get to the end faster), where you use the regular gameplay and strategies against a boss that basically amounts to a permanent obstacle that keeps bugging you, instead of being forgotten at the next section of the level. I think more bosses should be implemented like that. Another one like this would be the first boss from the fangame Sonic GT, where your pursue one of Eggman's robot riding a mincart and throwing explosives at you. That one I think was really fun, you're still using the regular mechanics of the game in a new environment.
Momentum based combat is a great idea, and it's boggling why something of that kind has yet to be implemented into a Sonic game.
The ring system is fine as is. Losing all your speed and being immobilised for a brief period of time is punishing enough as is. The loss of rings is salt in the wound, and the inability to recollect any of them would just be cruel.
This is definitely more sound than most of Sonic's attempts in terms of game design. But I think on some level, people really just want to see these characters do cool combat moves that aren't just spinning in a ball. Battle shonen has been part of the series' DNA ever since Sonic 2, the OVA, etc. I think that's why the idea of giving Sonic dedicated combat exists at all, and why indies like Freedom Planet and Spark have it. This sounds like the perfect evolution of the classics' "bop on the head 8 times" approach, but like it wouldn't scratch that "scrimblo Dragon Ball Z" itch. I think Freedom Planet 2 does that the best of any Sonic-like that exists now, though even that could be made better.
That's what i mean, like wtf is this puritanical "thats not sonic" bullshit when not even the officials agree with that? I doubt they didn't even knew what Sonic is back in the 90s. Now I'm here wondering if we're even into the same series or not. Deep down in my heart I knew frontier's approach was inevitable.