Ranking the Best Finishers in Commander | Commander Clash Podcast 68
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- Опубліковано 1 жов 2024
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I always think that this'll be the week they actually bring up a tier list to arrange things upon
I mean, they create one for the thumbnail that’s actually filled in with their real picks! But they just…. don’t share it anywhere??
They could easily just put it up at the end of the video.
Probably has something to do with not being able to handle the comments/hate of random people on the internet. These nerds are soft af
@@hahahafunniness those be fighting words for an anonymous, random generated looking ass name with no internet footprint lmao
And before you say "WeLl So ArE yOu" I'm not the one who criticised people for putting themselves on the internet.
@@andyspendlove1019 they probably share it on discord or something while they're recording the episode, is my guess. Or Tomer makes it just for the thumbnails.
And then you learn that you can cast Akroma's will off of Sunforger
jesus
As a suggestion, would it be possible to have an ongoing tier list displayed as the video progresses, with a row for each tier and the card images in the rows? That way it would be much easier to make comparisons as more and more cards are added.
they have it in the thumbnal but don't do it in the video like wtf
I agree something like that would be helpful, if it were clear, but I like it the way it is. The ongoing tier list just takes up too much screen and the cards are too small to make sense of it all by the end.
Lol Phil you had me looking for a bug 🐛 🤣 😂
L
It's the "most replayed" part of the video 😂
"Is Akromas Will better than Craterhoof?"
If you play Selesnya, you don't have to choose 😎
Even better, just do WUBRG
I came here to look for the bug Phil was talking about, did anyone see it? I'm not seeing anything.
Edit: also Gary is ABSOLUTELY an incredible wincon. It's almost too easy. Cast it, sacrifice it, reanimate it, sac it again, recur it, cast it again, etc. Once you have a boardstate you can do a ton of (potentially fatal) damage.
Surprised finale of Devastation isn't on the list. Good in go wide decks and go tall decks if you grab pathbreaker Ibex. Wins me the game most times I cast it
Hey, Divine Intervention may not win you the game, but it absolutely FINISHES the game, so it is technically a finisher!
I'm just saying, find me a player who ticked Divine Intervention up all the way and that person is without fail grinning ear to ear while everyone else is grumbling and ready to choke them out. If that's not a win I don't know what is.
43:14 the pure look of horror on Phil's face 😂😂
Rift isn't just mass evasion. It puts people back so many times you can basically operate unimpfeeded until you win the game. You guys should do stats on how often the rift player loses because it's not often.
Craterhoof is most certainly an A, the deck has to be slightly built around it for it to be a finisher. You need lots of creatures cheap enough to have a lot of them on board before being board wiped. I prefer Overwhelming Stampede in stompy decks and Craterhoof in elf/token decks.
Craterhoof Behemoth, Akroma's Will, and Cyclonic Rift are things that turn a threatening board state into a lethal board state.
Rise Of The Dark Realms, Tooth and Nail, Blatant Thievery, Insurrection, Eerie Ultimatum, and Torment of Hellfire are things that turn a poor board state into a hopefully lethal board state.
The difference is really in play style. Crim and Phil play more reactively and tend to not be the aggressor that is dictating the place of play. Tomer and Seth tend to be more proactive and are challenging the group to stop/control them.
This is also a very good point to consider when you are building your deck. What kind of player are you? What is the end game for the deck you are trying to build? Identifying this will help you select finishers that are far less likely to be "dead" when you are trying to close out the game.
Thing to note about craterhoof: you only need 5 1/1 tokens to kill someone with it. At 10, you can kill the whole board with 15 damage to spare
Tooth, Torment, & Insurrection do it immediately though. And Craterhoof "combos" with a ham sandwich, which along with tutorability, is why it rides at the top.
My favorite finisher is probably Rite of Replication the amount of different cards that just win the game from it is insane and are probably already in whatever deck id run this in anyways. Five copies of Gary everyone dies. Five copies of kokusho five death triggers, if you copy it once you drain the table for 50. Even in General Tazri this thing wins off of like 3 to 4 different allies.
Rite of replication is one of my favorite finishers too. I love that it's flexible enough to be cast as a decent 4 mana spell, and at 9 mana it can potentially win the game.
It's especially good in my Anhelo deck; copied kicked spells are kicked. 10 good etbs is enough value to put you in a winning position even if it doesn't end the game on the spot.
Your comment needs more attention. Rite of Replication is a gem, and I was expecting them to bring it up when talking about Gary and his requirement of pips. No one said anything D:
Just hours ago I copied a triplicate titan. Powerful, fun, “Fair”, I love it.
What i like about akromas will:
- only very few options to get around it (counterspells, farewell, sac)
- lifelink and vigilance helps on crackback
- protection helps on getting to the player
- doublestrike is a damage buff most of times
- even only one side will save you or can win you the game
- instandspeed cause ofc.
Commander clash idea, one week play all S cards from the podcast rankings are banned.
Lands, creatures, ramp, wrath's, finishers, etc. Every podcast's rankings included.
Right! Bring it back to battle cruiser for an episode lol, I hope they do this at some point, I bet it'll end up being just massive splashy spells all over the place!
Seeing Phil's reaction to Seth's fun suggestions for Tooth and Nail targets makes me want an episode for that.
As someone who started playing commander in 2013, who was a middle school Timmy gamer, it is heartbreaking to see genesis wave as a b tier. Rip literally every monogreen ramp deck having more boring finishers rn.
Read the way they rate.
@@brandandixon3943 oh I don’t deny the validity of its ranking it’s more so missing Gen wave x=35 on turn 17 commander lmao
I use wave and exsanguinate in my Beledros deck. Just some good, wholesome finishers. I am playing them before T8, so it might not be the slow finish of yesteryear, but still a good time.
Cyclonic Rift is 1000 times more of a finisher than Blatant Thievery.
I know this comment is old, but seeing him put blatant thievery, a 7 mana sorcery that literally cannot win the game unless you're stealing giant hasty commanders an S; next to a 7 mana instant speed nonland board wipe at D is mind numbing.
@@StalkingPanda96they just don’t understand the power of cyclonic rift. The tempo you gain is insane it doesn’t matter if you can’t win the game on you turn your opponents are just set way back you’ll probably win in a turn or two
@@StalkingPanda96board wipes tend to extend the game…not finish it. Makes sense to me. Yeah, if you have lethal on board and can cyclonic rift and attack for lethal- but most times I see it played it’s more like an explore or a time warp. Everyone skips their turn to redeploy their stuff.
@@bubblehulk7647 if you do it end step it makes whoever's turn it is discard their board down to hand size, then the caster gets a turn, THEN everyone else wastes a turn replaying. And that's if the blue player does nothing as you recast your board.
Compared to blatant thievery, which cannot win the game unless you steal like three 21 power haste commanders, it's night and day
@@StalkingPanda96 that doesn’t win the game though. Bouncing their stuff usually just puts you way ahead. It might be 3-4 turns until you win.
It is 9 mana, but Tooth and Nail can win the game from no boardstate and no cards in hand. The other overrun effects can't do that.
A lot of there opinions missed the mark here. Blatant is NOT a finisher. Tooth is literally everything you want in a finisher. It's a 1 card win con.
44:25, there is no spider. That looks to be a light's reflection on the glass furniture that resides behind Seth's right shoulder.
If Cyclonic Rift isn't a finisher then neither is Craterhoof. Craterhoof makes your boardstate lethal when it comes done by making you able to go over your opponents creatures and giving them a damage boost to more reliably have lethal, similar Cyclonic Rift takes your opponents creatures out of the equation by bouncing them making you able to attack for game.
And even if you only kill off one person. You probably have gained enough advantage from that you can kill the remaining players on your next turn.
The red craterhoof is Surge to Victory. It requires a bit of setup but it’s bananas.
Underrated gem here.
An episode on the tension between a deck's focus on tempo vs. value (and how that relates to power level) would be nice.
Interestingly, there is a Historic combo deck, which has drawing the game as a serious part of its best of 3 gameplan. www.reddit.com/r/spikes/comments/yotyi2/discussion_niambi_and_the_27_club_lines_and_primer/
Arena won't let you loop Niambe and glasspool mimic more than 27 times without forcing a draw, which "wins" by generating that many 1/1s and swinging for lethal on the next turn. Against control decks which just wipe the board, you intentionally force a draw in game 1, then play the rest of the match pre-sideboarded with counter magic.
Tomer mentioning his skull deck made me think it might be nice to hear everyone's favorite silly, non-mechanical themed commander decks, or themes they wish they could do but don't have the pieces or tools.
What about Expropriate? I think it's blatant thievery but actually wins the game! It's so strong and can actually win even if you have nothing on board!
If you have never seen Cyclonic Rift win the game, you are lucky. This is a spell that when it gets casts, it acts as a board wipe + time walk.
The last 2 times I cast cyclonic rift I won on my next turn.
Cyc rift is absolutely a finisher. It gets played when you have a winning board state, and use it to clear the pieces your opponents have out. Not just creatures, but spells and other tools.
Agreed. My Talrand deck basically aims to get head to head cast it or say Spectral Deluge, and then win as a control deck with an established board state.
You really going to re-establish against a deck thats mostly interaction?
I think it's just a definitions issue. A "finisher" has to actually end the game. Cyclonic rift is always playable but doesn't guarantee a win when you cast it. A lot of the time, you'll cast it for value or to reset the board. For a cyclonic to end the game, it's highly reliant on other finishers already being on your board before you cast it. In comparison, resolving tooth and nail = insta game over >90% of the time if you run a combo.
Cyclonic Rift doesn't clear spells
My favourite finisher is the 4 mana high risk high reward card, Bedlam. For those who don't know it's a 2rr enchantment that says "creatures can't block".
I think cyclonic rift is completely fine and people who have a problem with it, should question themselves imo. It's exactly what I expect a blue board wipe to be and actually doesn't even kill anything besides tokens. just a good ol' bounce spell, which is in many situations way worse than the other colors board wipe options, because people can rebuild their stuff (yes, I'm looking at you farewell)
Fun video guys! When Tooth and Nail first came out during Mirrodin block the Standard combo was Mephidross Vampire + Triskelion. Good memories. Unrelated, I just heard about the pre-Modern format. That reminds me of the good old Extended format with its decks. Extended was my jam 20 years ago during Tempest, Urza, Odyssey, , Onslaught era.
I think the topics need to change up a bit. Almost every "tier list" somehow becomes mostly a conversation about a very small pool of cards like Craterhoof, Dockside, Blatant, etc. Commander is a much more diverse environment of topics and discussions than rehashing a top-10 staples list almost every week.
There is actually a nerfed version of Divine intervention, called Celestial convergence, it comes in with seven Omen counters and the person with the highest life total wins the game when the last is removed... But if two players have the same life total the game is a draw.
I like how Tooth and Nail is 9 mana to win the game and it gets B’s and C’s for being so crazy expensive, then later cards get A’s because they win the game if you put 20 mana into them
My favorite finisher is a White Weenie + Sword of Fire and Ice.
In mono black...I run both Ex and Torment however the actual finisher in my Human aristocrat deck is Repay in Kind and at 7 mana will impact the board...easy. And always will net the same result.
I tend to run Mob Rule over Insurrection, does almost the same job at 6 mana
Controversial opinion: I run Mirror Entity over Craterhoof in any deck that's Green white as its much more flexible. No trample but doubles as protection and trial synergies. Mirror entity is the best overrun effect 😬😂
Homeward path is staple but so expensive, nobody plays in casual... i have better cards in list to spend 20 bucks on.. :D
I mean if blatant thievery or "cards that put u in a position to win" are considered wincons. Id say rift 100% qualifies. If you dont have a boardstate to win the game not like will wins you the game either that was such a bunk argument.
We discuss that yes, if you have a board state, rift can remove blockers to set up a win. But we say that if you're looking at rift's finisher potential, other cards like craterhoof are going to be better on similar board states.
@@MTGGoldfishCommander then what about Deadly Tempest or Massacre Worm?
Cyberdrive Awakener is one of my favorite wincons in my Tivit, Seller of Secrets deck, in addition to Tezzeret, Master of the Bridge, (not running Time Sieve or Expropriate because not into those wincons). I was running Rise and Shine until very recently but decided to switch it for Braids, Arisen Nightmare for some additional card draw.
I’ve hit a 5 person table with 4,900+ damage from craterhoof. Can’t say the same for any other non-infinite cards
6.67 to the 16th power looks like
66700000000000000
Why is insurrection an S at 8 mana while tooth and nail is a B at 9 (but in a much stronger ramp colour and also being less reliant on board state)?
Cyclonic Rift is an extra turn spell. It's such a tempo play, for 7 mana you destroy all tokens and make your opponents pay mana equal to their board. It's not a sweeper- it's a delay. It's not a finisher - it's a tempo play. Cyclonic Rift is an extra turn spell
If it were phrased as “destroy all tokens your opponents control. Take an extra turn after this one” that’s sorta what it mostly does.
@@johnathanrhoades7751 Except that most of the time it's more of a "take two extra turns after this one" because whoever's ahead likely has a higher mana value board than the amount of mana they can produce.
Plus it removes all +1/+1 counters.
Plus it can be used on the end step, forcing a player to discard down to 7.
Plus it removes all blockers, so if you have a good board, you can alpha strike for the win.
It's good when you're losing, or when you're winning, and the only time it's bad is early game, when you can STILL cast it for 2 to stop a combo
@@beanthebuilder yup. It’s pretty good 😄 I love it in my talrand deck and just wish it would drop in price so I could pick up another copy…
Aminatou's Augury into Mnemonic Deluge in Riku is the dumbest, most satisfying thing ever. Agreed Phil
I know there aren't any cards that say they draw the game on them, but there ARE some actual unbounded infinite loops that draw the game in some situations. This is the tier list we need now: top 10 draw the game combos.
All the over run effects with no mentions of Finale of Devestation. Search for a creature or recur a creature and if you dump the mana for 10+ you get craterhoof effect too.
Just tutor hoof for overkill
Crim is right about Gary. Top-tier finisher due to his easy repeatability
Majestic Genesis is an auto include in Thrasta and Ghalta.
I won three games at magic 30 in Vegas copying opponents Torment of Hellfire, copy spells are amazing finishers.
Gary's my boy, S+++ card. Only A as a finisher tho.
12:25 craterhoof avenger, pass? Cause you dont have haste
Homeward part is a win condition for my Jon Irenicus deck, good card that needs a few reprints.
43:36 I think Phil just saw the "B" in front of his camera. 😉
insurrection is not as good anymore with more decks seeming to run a sac outlet.
Unless you’re stealing all permanents, you should be relying on your deck to win the game. You shouldn’t be relying on your opponents’ stuff.
Why not? Some of the most powerful instants and sorceries in the game are reliant on your opponents having good creatures on the board in their deck; bribery, blatant thievery, Elminster's Simulacrum etc. All of these cards are fantastic spellslinger finishers, especially if you can copy them or recast them from the yard.
How dare Red get to win with big spells. Smh
Let's gooooooo
I ran Cyberdrive in a Tivit blink deck. I would get around 40 total tokens from Tivit alone, and Cyberdrive was oppressively good
Issue with blatant thievery compared to A tiers is that it's reliant on your opponents having something worth stealing and hoping that all 3 of your opponents have something good. Aroma's will and Craterhoof are purely reliant on your own board state
I think that Eerie Ultimatum and Rise of the Dark Realms are probably about the same, Sure Rise costs more but it's just in a single color (and thus can be put in more decks) and it being playable in Mono-B makes it every enticing with Cabal + Urborg.
There is also the fact that you can play Rise in more of a control deck so you don't even need to fill up your GY, you can let your opponents build up the value for you.
Or if you are playing cards that tax opponent's life, add Mindcrank and Rise gets even better.
I'm always shocked they don't break up these lists into videos for each color. More content, deeper dives into colors, themes, etc.
I don't see Cyclonic Rift as a "finisher" in that I am going to necessarily attack for lethal because now my stuff will be unblocked..
But most commander decks rely on building up a synergistic boardstate until you can hit "escape velocity" and either combo off, or just produce so much value /control/etc that the other players teaming up are too late to stop you.
Rift ends games by putting you 1-2 turns ahead on tempo as everyone else is forced to redeploy. It's more like an Extra Turn spell in that regard. And yeah sometimes it's like "I would have been better off playing Time Warp", but if your opponents have to spend 2 whole turns redeploying, it's closer to a Time Stretch (in terms of tempo, not card advantage, since they're still drawing).
I don't think tooth and nail is a finnisher it goes and finds your finnisher. if tooth and nail is a finnisher than any other tutor is.
Tooth and nail puts out 2 card combos. How many other tutors can do that?
I play Cyberdrive awakener in my Shirokai Vehicles and my Brudiclad deck and it performs super well as a finisher in both
I use Cyberdrive Awakener as a part win con in my Attractions deck. I already run flicker effects in there anyways.
Hot take: I like End-Raze Forerunners more than Craterhoof. Craterhoof will definitely kill someone, but a lot of times one person survives and then you're creatures are all tapped. The vigilance you get with the Forerunners is so valuable.
Multiple people will survive razerunners anytime craterhoof won’t win.
Omg Phil’s face at 43:14
Crim's Tooth and Nail rating makes sense when you realize he will literally never have 9 mana available to spend, let alone in green. Everyone rating Rise of the Dark Realms higer doesn't make sense though - it's the same mana cost, but doesn't guarantee a win like T&N does. Sure, T&N may be more boring at this point, but it's still the better finisher.
I just built Marneus Calgar around Cyberdrive Awakener. I make a million treasures then swing in with them.
Here's my hot take that shouldn't be: If Cyclonic Rift isn't a finisher, your deck is built incorrectly. An asymmetrical board wipe that gets rid of EVERYTHING should win you the game. If it doesn't, you need to tear apart that deck and build from scratch. Normal board wipes are catch-up mechanics. Asymmetrical board wipes are finishers. Cyclonic Rift is the most powerful asymmetric board wipe. If it's not S tier, it's you admitting that board wipes do not help you win games.
Craterhoof is 100% legit, when in the right deck. I have a big creatures stompy deck with Hamza as the commander and I feel good playing Craterhoof. But I wouldn't play Craterhoof in an elf deck like I used to lol. In my Hamza deck, I don't have ten 1/1s that suddenly become 10/10s. I have like four or five big creatures that get like +4 or 5 -- totally legitimate imo.
In regards to craterhoof behemoth... it's 8 mana for Overrun, which is a 5 mana card. We can actually do some math to figure out exactly what you need to make it win the game. Commander, 40 life total, 4 players. You need 120 damage. For simplification, lets assume you are not currently significantly ahead of your opponents (that would make Craterhoof just a win-more effect, after all), so total power and toughness will be roughly equal for all players pre-craterhoof. Ok, so what do you need to win? 40 damage to each opponent, ok... but even if it was 1 opponent, that's 5+6x6 creatures for 41 total damage. So, even in a 1v1, you need 5 creatures to make Craterhoof worth playing. But it's not a 1v1, you need to overcome 3x your board, plus an additional 120 after that. 11 creatures for an additional 126 damage is what gets you there... but, if we're assuming you're not already winning, that means you need to get over 33 of your opponent's equal creatures in the process. We need 1 more creature to get enough damage to overrun the enemy here. This is the minimum to make craterhoof a winning play instead of a win-more card. Alternatively, it could be used as a finisher for a game you were already ahead on... but overrun does the same for less mana.
It's good, but if it were S tier you'd also be running Overrun for its ability to do the exact same thing.
It was actually Seth that won the game with divine intervention. I was just re-watching old school episodes with Jake in them and I think it was episode 4 or 5
Aminatou's Augury is legit one of my favourite magic cards. You absolutely don't need to hit 8 targets to make it worth it in a spellslinger deck that can copy. Most times 4 cards puts you waaaay ahead of everyone else.
Insurrection can be your deck, just know when to make it happen. Don't do it just to do it.
Just here for Phil's takes on Cyberdrive and Rise and Shine.
As an overrun, I think Hoof wins it. Akroma's will has the instant speed if needed, so can be used for other things too. And also gives vigilance, indestructible, lifelink, etc, so great if winning isn't certain. BUT Akroma's Will is less of a definitely win if you are exclusively wide and not tall. Hoof is already a total win at a relatively small number of creatures, which can be puny 0/1 plants.
But obviously, if you can, play both.
Surprised to not see Underworld Breach here. In casual storm lists it's just game over when this hits.
I think Cyc Rift is kind of a finisher in the sense that you need a board. Imo it's better than Craterhoof as it also has a purpose outside of ending the game. Plus being instant to cancel someone else's aggro finisher.
There's a reason why Cyc Rift sees cedh play in every blue deck but Craterhoof doesn't in every green deck. It's the versatility. You out everyone's board and then follow up with a win condition. In casual where board states are build up over multiple turns Cyc Rift becomes such a huge tempo swing.
Cyc Rift + Rhystic Study/Remora is also basically a 2 Card combo that just wins you the game if it gets back to you and study/remora doesn't get popped.
Just won a game where I Cyclonic Rift overloaded and swung for the win - it’s a finisher alright
Cyclonic Rift is a finisher ONLY when you are able to cast it on the end step before your turn. In this case, it is a complete blowout, but that alone DOES NOT win you the game. It only sets you up to potentially do something great or win on the next turn. If you use the Rift in any other situation, the other players have a chance to rebuild, depending on when you cast it. And, there is a HUGE downside to the RIFT -- leaving that much mana open to cast it means you probably didn't do anything on your turn to progress your board state. Probably the only exception to this is when you have Seedborn Must or some other "untap all your lands" effect. This would allow you to do stuff on your turn, THEN untap lands for a possible RIFT on the end step before your turn. For this reason, I would give RIFT a solid B. It is an AMAZING card in blue, and nothing beats it, but because of the downsides and the fact that it doesn't give you an insta-win, it is definitely a B. Giving it A (for some people) is understandable, but it is overrated with an A. Another downside is that you have to get it overloaded to get the full potential, but you cannot cast it for the overload cost as an alternative cost in most cases. In other words, I can't cast it for the overload cost for free, in most cases.
I'm brewing an Orvar deck and was looking for a unique or more interesting wincon, so I think Cyberdrive would be perfect. Copy a bunch of mana rocks and other artifacts with Orvar and make them cool flying mechs
I have 10 decks and each has a Homeward Path. Taking other people's creatures is lame and this land just destroys those tactics. What makes it even better is it stops EVERYONE'S creatures being stolen
I don't think Treasure tokens make Torment of Hailfire that bad.. sure we have a lot of treasure productions but people rarely ever sit on 10 treasures for fun or in case you torment them. I've won every game i ever casted torment and usually get it to x= 20-30 pretty consistently thanks to all the mana doublers in black.
I pay Gary as a finisher in my Araumi deck and he slays.
I run Torment in my Nicol Bolas, the Ravager because Dockside Extortionist with Deadeye Navigator or Displacer Kitten is a thing lol
Spectacular showdown just king makes the person after you. Or if they don’t take the other two people out it’s just a creature board wipe. C tier from me
Majestic Genesis + Worth, the Broodmother is fun 😅 goblin recruiter before that would be the nuts
Phil at 37:30, "uninteractive"...it literally requires your opponent's cards to do anything. Wtf
Akromas Will is obviously weaker in the actual context of finishers. Yall mostly debated if its a better card, but craterhoof wins almost every time, as a finisher.
If someone drops a cratehoof, either a few or everyone else at the table is probably dead. The game is finished.
Akromas will may be more useful in a ton of situations, but ive never seen anyone kill three players in a swing with it.
To be fair, a finisher doesn't necessarily imply 'winning'. Divine intervention absolutely 'finishes' a game of magic.
Majestic genesis is phenomenal in the reaper king. Pay 8, blow up 8 lands. I'd take 2 if I could...
Avacyn+cataclysmic wouldn’t really work though? You can still sac permanents that are indestructible.
I don't understand how anyone can rank tooth and nail lower than things like rise of the dark realms or insurection. Those cost the same or almost, are in colors that ramp less, and don't necessarily win the game, while with T&N if you build correctly you can almost 100% of time guarantee the win.
No extra combat steps made the list? Enough mana, decient board and aggrivated assault kills people. Double damage like gisela blade of goldnight will also make enemy lifetotals vanish real quick
Celestial Convergence is another card that can draw the game!
You're rating finishers. Not generic utility cards. Hoof will always have more kills than will.
Cyclonic rift doesn't win the game when you play it, it's what you do after that wins it.
I mean, yeah. But the same with craterhoof. It's the combat after casting it that wins.