That Time Janeway Absolutely Destroyed Tuvix (Voyager) (Manic Episodes)
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- Опубліковано 15 тра 2020
- Many ethical questions are raised by the episode Tuvix, but perhaps most important of all is why we should care about Tuvok or Neelix.
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#StarTrekVoyager #StarTrek #Tuvix #KateMulgrew #TomWright #EthanPhillips #TimRuss #JenniferLien #RobertBeltran #RobertDuncanMcNeill #RobertPicardo #GarrettWang #SimonBillig #AllisonPregler - Розваги
Aight guys I'm hearing the argument that they could've used the transporter to make two Tuvixes ala Thomas Riker and then split just the one, but I think you all are missing like....the entire ethical dilemma.
Science and Engineering Nerds 1 : Philosophy Nerds 0
good to trade one person (tuvix) for two (tuvok nd neelix). greater good n such. imho
I think it would be fine if Tuvix agreed not to back out of the deal when there was two of him.
This was a terrible episode and put me off of Voyager entirely. It's like it was written by someone who had never seen an episode of Trek in their lives. This is the same franchise that respected the rights of Exocomps, sentient holograms, and a Borg named Hugh for fucks sake. There is no dilemma. Everyone on the bridge should be in jail for murder.
It wouldn't have worked anyway. They'd be making a copy. The original Tuvix consciousness would still cease to exist.
This episode is what you would get if a good Star Trek episode and a bad Star Trek episode got merged together in a strange transporter accident.
i think its a great star trek episode. idk what your talking about.
@@DannyCosmos Yep. I've always loved seeing my very moral heroes murder someone for convenience. It's awesome!
Oh my Q, this is BRILLIANT!
His talking about? 🤔 What does a talk about look like and how does someone own it?
Oh....you meant "you're". 🤦🏻♀️ Silly me
And then murdered by forcibly splitting it into it's components.
My opinion of Tim Russ's portrayal of a vulcan is that he is one of three or four that actually got it right. Most people just talk dryly and act irritated. Nimoy and Robin Curtis did this perfectly before him, but I feel Russ should be the standard for vulcan acting. Nimoy had the gimmick of being half-human so he could slip in more emotional moments, but other characters don't have that luxury. Russ' Tuvok has so many layers which are only seen through his eyes and facial expressions... and it takes a great actor to pull that off.
I don't think Spocks occasional emotions were really due to his split nature, most of them either happen under external influence or occur before the character was defined.
Also, when Benedict Khan went all self righteous with Neu Spock in that movie (how can YOU be expected to break bone?!?) I wanted Tuvok to pop in and show him just how a Vulcan could apply some judicious violence!
I absolutely love Tuvok's send off to Neelix with his "dance". Tuvok barely tolerated Neelix but he did slowly grow on him, like a fungal infection.
Much agreed. Though I think the new Spock on Discovery is doing fine too. But Tuvok was far far better at being emotionless and still interesting or even funny at times than T'Pol.
@@SwiftNimblefoot "I like science... and dont sit in my spot on the couch"
Agreed. Russ is great.
On the one hand, what Janeway did was wrong.
But on the other hand, imagine you were fused with Neelix. Death would be mercy.
It seems that both Neelix and Tuvok were happier as Tuvix.
@@Xondar11223344 Only becuase Neelix's personality took dominance. Tuvix appeared to have been like 75% Neelix and 25% Tuvok in terms of his overall behavior.
@@SatoshiMatrix1 I'd tweak those percentages more toward Tuvok, if I'm recalling the episode correctly, as I don't remember Tuvix being _nearly_ the f*ck-up Neelix was.
@@SigEpBlue Only because Tuvix featured in one episode rather than Neelix being in nearly every episode throughout the whole series. Granted, season 6 and 7 Neelix wasn't as much of a fuckup, but keep in mind, in addition to being incredibly annoying, Neelix is also a coward, a liar, a terrible cook, someone with no respect for other's privacy, and for the first couple of seasons, was dating essentially a child.
Also remember that one time he became a thief and sold drugs to criminals to get a map so he could lie to his friends on Voyager about knowing more about the Delta Quantrent than he really did? What a swell person!
Nothing against Ethan Phillips who did the most with the role he could. but Neelix makes Voyager difficult to enjoy when he features heavily. Which is too often.
more worse would be fused with wesley crusher. or Neelix and wesley.
At least Tuvix is a more age appropriate match for Kes.
He likes older women
@@maxwellgarrison6790 dbsfk
The Tuvix Episode was INTENSE.
That was the very first time i felt really hard feelings against Janeway, the first time i was really against her and wanted a way stronger Reaction against her...
I almost felt Hate against Janeway that time... as i said, it was intense...
Slevin Channel you’re that guy who’s pick his loved one over a bus full of strangers aren’t you? Saving 2 lives is more important then saving one life that has no right to exist. Tuvok’s family deserved to have him back and regardless of your feelings about Nelix he deserved to live too. She made the ONLY ethical choice.
@@MamaMOB Who are you to decide that 2 lives are worth more than one? That's Vulcan apathetic philosophy. As humans, of course we would choose our family and friends over strangers. It's logical for us, because we place different value sets on those we've associated with. It's part of our very nature thanks to evolution. And who are you to decide any life doesn't have the right to exist?
Besides. The analogy of saving a loved one or several strangers if they are all in danger and you can only choose one doesn't apply here. This episode involved purposefully killing a life in order to bring two lives back to life. Not the same thing. Would you honestly allow someone kill your own spouse if it meant bringing two strangers back? How long does Tuvix need to exist before he could be considered his own person and have a right to life? Like all life, he had no choice in his birth. He was on that ship for weeks, and presumably would have made new bonds like any other person. But in a very un-Trek manner, everyone of the crew this episode exuded extreme selfishness and shortsightedness. It was more important to them to get their old crew members back, and in the process of practicing post birth abortion they purposefully destroyed new life.
If not for Tuvix's brutal, cold-blooded murder at Janeway's hands, we never could have gotten this video, and that would have been the REAL crime.
But it means we have to put up with Neelix for the rest of the show.
The Tuvix Episode was INTENSE.
That was the very first time i felt really hard feelings against Janeway, the first time i was really against her and wanted a way stronger Reaction against her...
I almost felt Hate against Janeway that time... as i said, it was intense...
It wasn't murder, it was a medical procedure to return Tuvok to life.
@@ANTIStraussian And killing people for their money is a financial procedure to acquire wealth, right?
How do you think Tuvok’s wife and children would’ve felt meeting to Tuvix when they finally got back to earth? Do you think they would’ve been happy that this man caused the end of their husband and father? Or do you think they would consider HIM a murder? Because I can tell you I would consider him the murderer of my husband or father if his existence caused his death.
Janeway: "Eh, he eats half as much as the two of them and can still make coffee. We're keeping him."
"His cooking is better but his coffee is worse, time to do a murder I guess"
"Next, let's combine Harry and Chakotay, we need to upgrade the rest of the crew".
@Afmm Tomlana? :D
Why did I read all these replies in Janeway's voice? I hate you all.
@@matthewhennessey5967 Charry?
I admire the way that the episode didn't cop out by having tuvix decide to sacrifice himself. He still maintains his autonomy and will to live and janeway has to make a damn near impossible decision and there's nobody afterwards to give her a pep talk about how she totally did the right thing, the morality of her decision is left ambiguous which was a really ballsy move for the writers who usually preferred their characters squeaky clean and unrelentingly good.
For some reason, however, there's another "Tuvix light" episode where Tuvok's personality changes and conveniently he himself decides to sacrifice his new personality and become his old self. Why was this episode created again at all?
I disagree that it was ballsy. Firstly, Janeway makes the decision too easily and too callously, as though the writers couldn't come up with a way to portray actual emotional conflict. Secondly, her decision just restores the status quo, making this another irrelevant bottle-episode. Thirdly, Janeway faces no consequences whatsoever of her decision. Imagine if a group of crewmembers led by, for instance, Kes marched up to Janeway's ready room and confronted her, hitting her with the fact that she murdered someone in cold blood, and that they clearly cannot ever trust her not to throw their lives away either from here on out.
Now THAT would be ballsy.
@El-ahrairah The fact that it is a bottle episode is a good reason not to attempt to do something like this, not a reason to do it poorly.
What are the ethics? You murder a person to bring back, not save, two other people. It's not rocket surgery.
The problem is the episode doesn't actually tackle the ethical dilemma, because the decision is 100% up to one of the two people by far most emotionally compromised, and thus the very least suitable to make the decision.
It's not an ethical dilemma. It's the question "Will Janeway bring back her best friend in the world, or not?". Well, take a guess. She wants her friend back, so she murders a person to get her friend back. That's not complicated.
Elcarsh the fact that she has emotional stakes doesn’t make it any less an ethical dilemma though. If you were standing in front of a lever that could switch a train’s course to hurtle towards someone you love, would you switch the track knowing the alternative is to allow 5 people to die on the other track? It’s a famous ethical dilemma. This is just a Sci-Fi version of that.
@@miloboy1452 Nah, fuck those five people. That's a little different from telling someone "I'm gonna rip you and your personality in half and make two different people with them!" while they beg you for their life though. Especially when you know them and have spent time with them. Then the person who's supposed to do it refuses because even they know it's unethical so you do it yourself.
I'm still mad that Janeway did not respond to Tuvix' "they live on in me" with "you'll live on in them".
Because he won't, he's a combination of their neural pathways thereby returning aspects of them both.. By recreating tuvok and neelix they no longer have those patterns and so cannot take anything of tuvix with them.
@@lordnyko1860 that's BS. If Neelix and tuvoc are even partially aware of their time as Tuvix then he'd live on in them
@@darkpuppetlordful Lol ok bud. if you think that's how consciousness life/consciousness works then by all means continue on with your delusions.
@@lordnyko1860 lol OK Bud? Why be condescending when you literally are arguing dumb Sci-Fi shit? Like Tuvix says he is still Neelix and Tuvoc while also being HIM when he's first created, meaning he knew they still existed in some capacity.
And furthermore yes, if either or were semi conscious during the fusion that's even more proof of their existence being more important than that of a hommunculus
@@darkpuppetlordful Explain how they could be conscious? That's impossible. He was being poetic. In the same way people say your loved ones are never gone as long as you remember them in your heart...people are purposefully being obtuse to condone murder for the sake of their personal biases. See my earlier discussion, it's the equivalent of needing a blood sacrifice to activate a time machine and bring back your favorite person. They were DEAD. Not in hibernation. Not possessed by an alien entity. They were non-existent.
I didn't expect this episode to give us a karaoke version of "Opposites Attract" as sung by Tuvok and Neelix, but I also didn't expect that one peanut m&m I was eating to have two peanuts in it.
Clearly, there was a transporter accident.
My favourite part of this has always been the perfectly fitting jazz-fusion uniform. It turns out the fashion algorithms in the transporter are on point!
Yeah, it's a bit of a stretch that the "alien plant DNA" excuse works on fabric and communicator badges exactly as well as it works on living things.
The Tuvix Episode was INTENSE.
That was the very first time i felt really hard feelings against Janeway, the first time i was really against her and wanted a way stronger Reaction against her...
I almost felt Hate against Janeway that time... as i said, it was intense...
Like playing a rpg and just using the pre made characters..
The fashion algorithms are from Superman 4. Put a piece of Superman's hair in a box with some cloth, hurl it into the sun, and bam, a fully clothed and developed human emerges.
Of course! Why didn’t I see that before!
*Superman 4 confirmed in Star Trek canon*
"My relationship with Voyager is complicated. I love everything about it except for the show part!" How are you so eloquent and succinct?
Well, Voyager's showrunners didn't even know than an ensign is supposed to make lieutenant. Can you really be surprised that Voyager was... well, Voyager?
@@oddish4352 They are smart enough to know that giving someone a promotion when there is no job of that rank to give them doesn't happen.
@@captainjefferies9047 Then the rest of Trek's writers were dumb, because they did that with Geordi, Worf, Troi, Dax, Bashir, Sisko, Kira, Paris, and Tuvok.
Only Data and Harry were shafted.
@@oddish4352 Geordie got a new job. So did Bashir, Sisko, Worf, Troi, and Dax. Tuvok had already been promoted. The better question was why he didn't get the rank when he became second officer. Tom was only a lower rank because he had been demoted as punishment. He already had the job of an Lt.
Kira isn't even federation They might have Russian rules on Bajor where everyone gets to be a general if they last long enough.
@@captainjefferies9047 Bashir went from LTJG to Lieutenant while remaining CMO of DS9. Dax went from Lieutenant to LCDR while remaining science officer. Geordi went from Lieutenant (senior grade) to LCDR while remaining chief engineer of Enterprise. Troi went from LCDR to Commander without changing jobs. And Sisko went from Commander to Captain while remaining CO of DS9.
If they could do it, Harry could go from Ensign to LTJG while still remaining Operations officer. And if Troi could be a commander for killing a hologram of Geordi LaForge, certainly Data could be one after saving Earth from the Borg. No reason to punish him because Riker doesn't have the balls to take his own ship already.
That 'opposites' attract bit was both the best and worst thing I saw on the internet today. Well done, Allison! You rock.
This is the only full episode of Star Trek I've ever seen. I watched it when I was a child and always remembered the episode's ethical dilemma. When I was applying to Master's programs in philosophy I discussed it as a thought-experiment in my writing sample. That paper got my into the Master's programs and a $17,500 research grant from the Canadian government. So uh, thanks Tuvix. (I should really watch more Trek).
Somewhere in the multiverse a young Eric Wilkinson instead watched Spock's Brain, and is now serving three consecutive life sentences for cutting out people's brains.
LOL, this is great.
Also give TNG and DS9 a whirl they are immensely better than this.
Sounds like you missed out,if you enjoy ethical dilemmas.
Eric Wilkinson F
Wait till you see the city on the edge of tomorrow
Janeway's no-nonsense decision to march Tuvix down to medical and "execute" him herself is one of my favorite moments in all of Trek lore.
Shame Game of Thrones wasn't big yet (I think it was a book at this time). She could have quoted Ned Stark, "THE ONE WHO PASSES SENTENCE SWINGS THE SWORD!" lol
at least she was conflicted about it, and the decision was clearly difficult, she was also willing to do it herself and it obviously affects her for the final few moments of the episode anyway.
I also liked it when the Doctor looked her right in the eye and refused to carry out the separation. "I am a physician," he said. "And a physician must do no harm."
@@oddish4352 standing by and letting her do it is hardly much of a moral stand. He is literally the same as every other member of the crew standing by while a man begs for his life.
@@drewsachs6238 One of my several "Tuvix survives" scenarios has Tuvix consult with the Doc beforehand. When Janeway's death march arrives, the Doc says that he cannot do harm, so he has destroyed the separation isotope and deleted all knowledge of how to create it from his matrix.
As a kid, I LOVED aliens, androids, any characters that were out there and different from the humans, which could sometimes seem ho-hum to child me. I loved Worf, Data, Odo, Quark, etc.
And even I couldn't stand Neelix.
Arrowdodger you can’t even begin to compare those wonderful characters to the monster that is Neelix 😭😭😭
I loved him because I hated him. He was so awful and annoying that it sorta came full circle into liking him only so he could get dunked on by other characters.
He's like a kid friendly character. I liked him alot when I was a kid. Now I just kinda ignore the annoying shit he did. He did have a few good episodes.
Jar-Jar Binks vs Neelix: TO THE DEATH!
@@BlazingOwnager Of both of them, hopefully.
“My opinión of Discovery and Picard is that they exist”
I agree.
#notmyStarTrek and other fandom bullshit...
I disagree
much like the jar jar ahbrams ones, they’re just hallucinations
Haters use any StarTrek post to bitch about New Trek.
It's getting tired guys.
@@kenetickups6146 Oh, if it were only so. But they exist, much to Star Trek's loss.
I disagree.
God. Could you imagine how good Voyager would have been without all the executive meddling?
Just Kate Mulgrew being allowed to fully act alone would have been amazing.
It probably would
She was good, she wasn't THAT good
Yes she was that good. I want a Janeway show now
@@JesseColton It's coming...
* Me thinking how badass it would be if you merged Picard and Sisko *
I want an episode where an episode like this happens and the other characters say "you know what, the new guy IS better" and they just keep them, the old characters are never mentioned again in the show.
You will love Sliders
@@AllisonPregler I've never watched it, it looks interesting, I will check it out, thanks.
@@altromonte15 watch the first two seasons and then STOP.
@@AllisonPregler Oh God, you should do some Sliders sometime. Some of the fates of the main cast are hilarious, dark or insane. The original female lead was just abandon at an alien breeder camp (Jesus H Christ), etc. There's lots of interviews where the writers were so annoyed with SyFy that they started throwing more and more insane scripts at the producers just to see what they could slip past the censors. My FAVORITE behind the scenes story of legend from that show has to do with John Rhys-Davies character death:
At a Christmas party when Sliders was on Fox, John Rhys-Davies went to a Christmas party and got a little too drunk, and started totally ripping on an executive for being a weasel. Said Weasel turned out to be the head of the network. The following year, when Sliders was brought on by SyFy he got his revenge my demanding not just that he be fired and his character killed, but that his character be: Killed, brought back, have his brain turned to jelly THEN left on a planet that explodes..
Of course Rhys-Davies went on to do Lord of the Rings so I think he still sort of won in the end over remaining on a melting TV show.
This is what I wished had happened.
Voyager hasn't been on TV for nearly 20 years, and yet a review of it can still bring fresh laughs.
Not sure if you did it but the Voyager cast book poster with all the crew holding their favorite books and Neelix's photoshopped to be Lolita is one of the funniest Star Trek memes I've ever seen
That's pretty hilarious.
Tuvok could throw some mad shade at hapless fools. Sometimes I got the feeling that he was convinced that he was on his own personal Voyage of the Damned and Illogical.
"If you need a Vulcan Man, he's on the roster."
Good, cause I usually get creamed in my fantasy Vulcan league.
Why was Tuvix called Tuvix?
Because he only lived for two weeks
I love how the orchid that caused tuvok and nelix to combine was also effective in combining their wardrobe! like really?! hahahha.
And left a flower pattern on it
Fashion Trek
He got that transporter fusion drip.
Absolutely adore your patter jokes, where you rattle off lines, growing increasingly irritated until you hit the punch line. Your timing on them is perfect and it's not a technique I generally hear from other comedians.
Thank you!
@@AllisonPregler Of course! It's a technique you've used for ages and it makes me laugh every time.
The parody song was *chef’s kiss*
I think it’s so interesting how Tuvix has gotten a resurgence, but it is ripe for memeing.
Compare this episode to Deep Space Nine's "In the Pale Moonlight," another Trek episode in which the captain weighs the morality of one man's murder against a future where more live, and the actor is given alone time in front of the camera to react to their own decisions.
"Tuvix" could have been handled with more gravitas had the showrunners cared.
To be fair DS9 also has Sisko blowing up an entire planet to fish out one guy he has a problem with. That's some shit the Empire would do, it's one of my most conflicted moments from that show, in one hand it's horrible and super anti Trek, on the other it's a moment that shows how self righteous Starfleet is. Edit: Sorry, he didn't blow the planet, he just poisoned it.
@@fbritannia He did it knowing it could be settled by Cardassians and the planet the Cardassians were on could be settled by the humans, restoring the balance to the region.
That being said, it's still a horrible thing to have done.
I feel like In the Pale Moonlight is rapidly attaining meme-status with how often it's brought up in conversation about Star Trek. To be fair, it is a very very good episode.
@@EdwardM104 Absolutely, but not without real-world precedent. The real-world inspiration for the whole Cardassian-Star Fleet border conflict is often overlooked despite how on-the-nose it all is (the "Maquis") - but I feel that inspiration gives it a lot of the gravitas and nuance it has throughout the series. It's very much based on the plight of border regions during the formative stages of the Nation-State system in the early 20th century - how governments attempted to outline and enforce standards and policies aimed at cultural/linguistic/religious homogeneity in regions which that homogeneity simply did not apply due to generations of cultural fusion.
The end-result was forced-relocation, either brought about by the Second World War and its aftermath or introduced in the turmoil following the First World War and the collapse of the empires. One of the most notable examples being the mandated population exchange between Greece and Turkey after the collapse of the Ottoman empire. Despite what worked best for the European powers, the reality for those uprooted was often that they were seen as complete strangers and untrustworthy outsiders in their new countries. For those of Greek lineage in Turkey - for instance - they were considered Greek in Turkey - and therefore outsiders - only to be uprooted and forced into the newly-defined Greek state after which they were treated as Turks in Greece. Nationalism is a catch-22 for all those that do not fit the neatly into one box or the other or those caught between two powers locked in their own games.
DS9 actually allowed for ramifications episode to episode which helped. On Voyager everything is reset like it never happened every episode. In the episodic DS9 stuff is actually pretty serialized.
Tuvix: Sex.
Janeway: I beg your pardon?
Tuvix: Why is everyone so mean to me?!
"I don't want two judge Twovix two harshly..."
Why was Tuvix called Tuvix?
Because he only lived for two weeks
@@mrJety89 Woman in Total Recall: "Two Veeks"
If they could have mixed in third character, someone largely expendable like Harry Kim, they could have called him Threevix
"How do magnets work? What does god need with a starship?" lmao subbed
Now I want to know how magnets work...
This episode is the strongest argument for "write with the end in mind."
I never disagreed with Janeway on this, he isn't even really dead. All that he was still exists in both of them and her decision resulted in 2 lives.
My only complaint about this is that Tuvok and Nelix should have been changed from the experience. If should have resulted in them either being as close as family or just never wanting be be around each other. In typical voyager style it was like this never happened.
Agreed. A lot of people treat this like Janeway just straight-up murdered a guy, I always thought that she just... saved the two original guys. Yeah, Tuvix couldn't exist as one entity, but I don't believe that if Tuvok and Neelix could be separated that it's more moral to NOT save them from that.
The problem of characters not learning and growing from their experiences is easily one of Voyager's biggest problems as a series, it's seen pretty much everywhere, especially with Seven of Nine and Torres.
no one's ever really gone...
@@mastermarkus5307 I mean on the whole, those 2 guys had been alive for decades and people knew them and stuff, but Tuvix had been alive for half a month and only didn't get done in immediately because they didn't have the means.
Nope. Tuvix is dead. That why Tuvok and Neelix have none of his memories.
Speaking of Neelix dating a two year old character... what book is he holding on that reading promo photo? LOLITA.
Time stamp?
@@Mysticist 0:37
Jesus o-o
It’s photoshopped you numpties. That’s the joke. Check the other books.
@@Mysticist 0:32
Great "Opposites Attract" parody, yo! I do not remember this episode and I thought I saw them all. Wow.
I was not expecting the Opposites attract parody to occur within the first two minutes of the video. It was honestly a good time
The brain has a habit of erasing traumatic events so it’s not surprising you don’t remember it
I would trade this for all the MC Scat Cats in the world easily. Well done.
As their Captain, Janeway had to act on behalf of those of her crew who couldn't speak or act for themselves, Tuvok and Neelix. They were two independent separate people and she could restore them. So she did.
They were dead. The same as if a phaser blast had killed them.
@@lordnyko1860 Nope. They were fused against their will being essentially held hostage in a body without their consent. Janeway was 100% correct. Could it have been written better? Sure. But still.
@@theangryholmesian4556 Held hostage? They were dead. It's not a case of body snatchers. You're all just insane.
@@lordnyko1860 They weren't dead. More like being in a coma. Which can be reversed. That's what Janeway did. She was correct.
@@theangryholmesian4556 huh? What universe are you people from where having your molecules rearranged into a new sentient/sapient being is equivalent to being in a coma?! You're gone, they 'fixed' it by having a template to go by and recreate using Tuvix as base materials.
“Neelix, I grow tired of this song-“ I lost it 😂
Hands down the best one yet. I will keep hoping for more Voyager eps, because Janeways voice is too good to lose!
We all know if they used the Potara Earrings, he would have totally been called Neevok.
He is neither Tuvok nor Neelix, he is the one who will destroy you
I didn't realise I needed someone lovingly mocking Voyager and doing a funny Janeway voice in my life, but oh I so did! Thanks from a new subscriber!
Holy shit, Allison is so damned funny! I laughed out loud each time you did the Janeway impersonation :-) The killer line, though, was the "what does God need with a starship". Tuvix (the episode) manages to simultaneously show what is best and worst about second generation Trek - the amazing moral dilemmas that give you something to think about the whole week...and the occasional ham-fisted botch that comes from letting the lunatics run the asylum.
As a fan of Voyager, I can unironically say this is the best video about this episode I have ever seen.
More of this. I crave more of this.
They could have had Tuvix *want* to separate and other characters try to talk him out of it. I feel like that would have fixed the whole thing.
Yes like, have him see how sad everyone is by the character's death - he could even do it himself, like set up the program and then step on the teleporter ... anything would've been better than what we got (well nearly everything)
Admittingly, it's kind of hard to have people convincingly grieve for Neelix or Tuvok :/
That's how most ST episodes seem to handle character deaths as far as I can remember
I mean, imagine how wrong _Drone_ would have felt if One was begging to live but the crew killed him anyways. It's just not the Starfleet way
@@Barbayat79well it would be a good opportunity to talk about assisted suicide again. Or even the whole utilitarian one person sacrificing themselves to save others thing from Wrath of Khan.
To be honest, I understand why we need Tuvok, but is there any way of keeping Tuvix but not getting Neelix back?
“It kinda seems…dumb”
That’s it! That’s half of Voyager’s plots in four words!
As if Voyager's ration of good episode to bad isn't much better than every Trek show to precede it.
If they were going to do the "fused together" episode, the very least they could have done is to create some sort of creature with two heads that bicker all the time. It worked for most of the cartoons I grew up with.
Ever see "the Thing With Two Heads?"
I was so disappointed that Mr. Burns grafted onto Homer wasn't addressed within normal continuity in the next episode.
At least they were only fused together for Tu weex
Wow, imagine if this was the moral implication every time if Gogetta had to split back into Goku and Vegetta.
"they figured out how to get the chocolate outta the peanut butter".
you, madame, are a brutal savage.
I accidentally clicked on this video and I can already 100% confirm that I love this channel from the first 1:00 of this video.
Even when this episode aired I was wondering why they didn't use the transporter to "copy" Tuvix, like they did to Riker, then immediately split one of them. I imagine that Tuvix would have agreed to that since it would have meant at least one of him got to go on living.
Not that I know what to do with him after that but they still had a solution that would have saved 3 lives. Instead of killing one to save two.
Yeah, I was thinking about that TNG episode too.
I don't know that they could do that on command
Plus Janeway would *never* allow such a fundamental violation of Federation Ethics
Glad I found similar thoughts. He wants to live. Everybody's happy. I'd hope.
That just means they would have killed two extra people.
Poor Kes would have to keep quite busy...
As someone who doesn’t know jack about Star Trek, thank you for being both informative and entertaining with your discussions. You’re basically my guide.
Didn’t expect a DBZ fusion
I advise you to watch TNG and DS9, TOS (and it's movies), and pretend nothing else at all exists in the franchise.
Your description perfectly sums up my own feelings about voyager
"my relationship with voyager is complicated, I love everything about it except the show part "
The like is well deserved for Tuvok and Neelix singing opposites attract.
I was not prepared for the Opposites Attract song.
I am dead. You have killed me. This had me laughing so hard it actually started to hurt.
Apparently, the original ending to the episode had Tuvix agreeing to basically sacrifice himself so they could restore Neelix and Tuvok, but it got changed to the one shown because they thought it'd be a cop-out. That it'd be taking the easy way out of the moral dilemma.
So they opted to make the entire crew look like heartless a-holes instead?
This episode still bothers me decades later
Your Trek summaries and dialogue paraphrasing are gonna give Steve Shives a run for his money! MOAR PLS
It is also an episode that could be solved by the "Thomas Riker" solution, just double up the signal to make a double of Tuvix, and then split one of them into Tuvok and Neelix. Then you would have a new recurring character for the show with a unique origin that could lead to more stories.
This thing desperately needed a 3rd way to resolve the conflict... you know, what heroes are supposed to do.
At the very least this called for a Maques/Star Fleet conflict. What is the point of having a split crew, a situation built for conflict, if you are not going to have them take different stances on the topic?
@Gyllen Stålson up until the moment of it happening there would only be one Tuvix, so I don't think he would mind the theoretical .05 second Tuvix that is different from him dying before he ever really got to exist.
Rocket boy. Yes, the "thomas riker" transporter event might have saved tuvix and they would have a new character on the show.
But maybe nobody on the writing staff remembered that TNG episode so that wasn't an option. Too bad though.
The main reason for the choice is two actors were on contract and the one wasn't.
Well heroes find better solutions .. this is Voyager ;)
@@WingedWyrm oh. Okay.
Since they had a 3rd actor portray Tuvix, I'm surprised they didn't just do a cop out and have all 3 live at the end of the episode.
But what about the transporter buffer systems? I think they could have him survive, and I think it's canon.
ourkeving for sure, they have even accidentally made two copies of the same person before in canon, with Riker and his transporter clone Thomas.
Then they would have to decide what to do with the third actor. Make up a story of him choosing to leave Voyager? Or budget for another contract?
VOY never did loose ends. Any new character has to die. Any new character DEVELOPMENT also has to die. All hail the almighty reset button. Praise be to episodic structure. We watch, we forget, we watch again!
@@andrewklang809 Well they did switch Kes for 90210. But I don't like even that.
Not that I dislike the Borg character, but Kes was one of the better chracters, so it's a shame that she was the one being switched out (I wouldn't have missed Neelix for example, or Kim or Paris). Well I don't know if the reason was on the actresses part wanting out or someone wanting her gone as with Terry Farrell in DS9, so i don't know if there was a chance for that.
Of all the souls I've encountered in my travels, his was the most...human.
I usually dislike it when reviewers add skits, extended funny bits or do silly voices... it can be a hit or miss, a d if it's a miss, it really sucks.
But thankfully you're super genuine, well written, have great delivery and sense of balance between the comedy and serious bits.
And the Neelix & Tuvok duet was just 💋👌🏼
-TWO WEEKS- TUVEEX LATER
OMG, the copy of "Lolita" in Neelix's hand!!! I can't breathe!!! And Chakotay, "Acting for Dummies"!!! Oh God, it hurts!!! Where did you find that image? I must have it!!!
yea even Robert Beltran admitted he portrayed Chakotay badly because how unhappy he was behind the scenes
@@amazedsatsuma The writers handled Chakotay terribly from the start. We're always reminded that Trek is set in an egalitarian future where humanity has overcome racism and prejudice, yet in the very first episode Paris asks if Chakotay can magically transform into a bird by using "some kind of Indian trick".
@@Amaritudine Hey Beltran, you're being brought on as a pirate-archeologist leading a group of freedom fighters against tyrannical aliens, forced to work alongside the federation who is actively attempting to stop you.
Sounds great
What? Oh here put this starfleet uniform on and stand over there.
But what abou--
Hey redshirt! Stop talking.
Amaritudine He was giving him shit to make him mad so he’d make it out alive
@Afmm I saw a fan theory that fits Chakotay perfectly. He isn't actually from any Native nation. He's the descendant of a new age commune that practiced what they thought were the ancient traditions but were in fact just a whole big mishmash made up to sell crystals and dream catchers.
Your impressions of crew members make this just that much better. I died laughing at every Janeway impression.
But the teleportation shenanigans you edited in killed me even more.
"It was a split decision"
HA!
A good pun is its own reword!
I like Voyager, but "squandered opportunity" best describes the show.
Thank goodness for fanfic
Voyager should have been more like the third season of Enterprise.
@@kramermariav The prehensile plant needed more screen time
Heh. Neelix was holding a Lolita book in that library poster and he dated a two tear old.
I want that Tuvix Song on Spotify right now!!!
12:32 I think the implications of this question played a strong part in Janeway's decision. If they are dead, then that is proof that transporters kill you and then remake a copy of you on the other side, the original you being dead... Forever. Most of the crew just ignores this easily deductible reasoning for the sake of sanity, but Tuvix existence would be a constant reminder that when you get teleported you are getting killed, and you won't see the other side,but a clone of you will.
Some people don´t want to be transported and they are considered odd by the rest. Like conspiracy theorists today.
I'm gonna need proof for Discovery and Picard existing. That seems like quite the jump to me.
"Why is Voyager?" I don't think there is a better description.
10:54
"Why is Voyager?"
This is what happens when you have 7 seasons of a sci-fi show, shit gets weirder than you'd expect.
Specifically, seven years of a sci-fi show coming after another sci-fi show that also ran for seven years and airing concurrently with yet another sci-fi show that ran for seven years, all written by more or less the same group of people. Eventually, you just have no choice but to stop trying.
I'm an X-Files fan. Imagine what we went through when we got to the 9th one. Or hell, even the 11th!
What I liked about this episode was it felt almost like someone taking the “needs of the many, out weigh the needs of the few” and reeeeeally letting you SEE the darker side of that concept.
Jeez, Tuvix was such a perfect soul that he still conforting, forgive, and think more of the pain for the people who decide to kill him than for his own death.
He was to good for Voyager.
the truth is they discovered a superior lifeform and destroyed it out of fear of what he represented: their obsolescence. theoretically they could've condensed the entire crew down into one god-like superhuman, simultaneously achieving their own quest for the progression of the individual and the borg's quest for harmonious collective perfection...but they were too cowardly to pull the trigger so they pretended they really missed neelix (lol as if) as pretext for murder.
for all its criticism, this episode is probably the most accurate portrayal of humanity in all of star trek: earnestly seeking something only to tuck tail and run when the moment of truth arises.
@Artimus Not Janeway's finest hour, to say the least. Indeed, one of her worst.
Ah yes, such a kind soul, living at the cost of two people, basically stealing their lives, and showing absolutely no remorse for it.
"THIS IS MURDER" screams the man whose very birth deprived two people of life.
I'm not saying he doesn't deserve to live, or that he should put others ahead of himself, but at least show him a little conflicted.
@@HiperPivociarz While I don't agree with you per se, you provide a decent explanation of why Capt. Janeway did what she did. And that it was not a simple case of murder, the way many people say.
@@oddish4352 You're right. I don't think Janeway did the right thing, but whatever she would do, it wouldn't be the right thing, Allison even points that out herself, yet for some reason still acts like Janeway is the bad guy here, which I don't understand.
Calling Janeway a hypocrite or demonizing her in this situation I think is wrong. She isn't cruel (at least in this episode), it's not like she looks down on Tuvix, she feels for him obviously, but sometimes you have to distance yourself from emotion, and do something difficult. I'm not saying she's in the right, but it's very unfair to act like she's in the wrong either.
"Someone stole my lungs..." made me spit my coffee
I'm guessing this is where combining the two names of a celebrity couple began!
Tuvak and Nilex = Tuvix That moment you realize that the writers of this episode were DBZ fans.
This episode was horrifying. From a meta-perspective we always knew that they would be separated again, Ethan Phillips and Tim Russ presumably had contracts after all, but ultimately it just feels like yet another example of this show's squandered potential.
With it's "long journey home" premise Voyager could've been the most unique and best Star Trek series ever made, a 24th century Odyssey, but it just seems like the folks in charge of the show never passed up an opportunity to let us down.
Of all the Star Trek series, Voyager is the one that's hardest for me to re-watch.
The crazy scientist that split Belana into human and klingon learnt this forbidden technique from Janeway as she bragged about her kill count at a bar
Lol
I remember an episode of Voyager where B'Elanna Torres’ Klingon & human DNA were separated into two separate beings by the Vidiians. It oddly wasn’t much of a big deal.
The difference there is that the two halves needed to become whole again to survive. My more distinct memory of that episode is where the Vidiian doctor fucking steals a guy's face and spreads it over his own so he can score a bit higher with the ladies
@@HusbandofLois That episode should have ended with Voyager dropping a torpedo on their organ processing center, then warning the complex's few survivors that if they so much as looked funny at her ship or her people again, no number of stolen organs would save them.
@@oddish4352 LOL!
@@BlueCourtingBooks It sounds funny when I write it. But when Janeway says it, it's frickin' scary.
@@HusbandofLois IIRC, the really inspired bit of that was that the Vidiian and the unlucky goldshirt were played by the same actor, perhaps indicating what would happen to him.
Transporter: Destroyies the matter and transports it into another place, this means that the object is almost if not identical to how it was, meaning that nothing can move, also molécyles are broken and un reactive.
Weird flower: *_How about No?_*
God, I love Manic Episodes so much! Just love your sense of humor, you always make me laugh. :)
I was fairly young when I watched through Voyager (early teens maybe?), but I remember my main issue with the series is that only a few characters get any real development. Like you said, the premise is good, and most of the characters at least have the potential to be interesting, but the show mostly seems to just spin its wheels and focus on answering the immortal question: What stupid situation is Harry Kim going to get himself into this week???
I really appreciate the Motion Picture insert. Great video as always!
My favorite stupid thing about Voyager is that from Season 2 onward, the Harry Kim on the show is a double created by an anomaly. The original Kim died, and I'm pretty sure they didn't even have a funeral or memorial service for him.
That's BS. What makes you think the dead one is the original, or that there is an original? In that episode the ship splits into two ships. Neither is original.
@@CircusOfValues-BH486 There was no parallel universe.
Tuvix is a Reese’s encased in spinach artichoke dip
I remember watching this episode when I was a younger teenager and thinking Tuvix should have lived. Sometimes he was creepy, but in the end he wasn't evil or sinister at all and that creepy stuff just seemed to come from nowhere (again, from the pov of when I was younger) I guess I knew production-wise that they needed to go back to the status quo of the Tuvok and Neelix actors/characters since this new guy wasn't in any of the later episodes, but how freaking interesting would that be to have kept Tuvix around. I can imagine the same thing happening in a future series of Star Trek or some other sci-fi show and them keeping that character and watch them progress. Maybe make it easier to swollow with having the two people that fuse maybe not having much prospects in their own individual futures like a wife and kids, maybe make one terminally sick, idk. It'd be really interesting and compelling, especially if they do episodes with more symbolic or philosophical topics of unintentional conception, gender identity/dysmorphia (because idk maybe fusing two people of different genders/species might create body image issues), idk, it'd be neat to see them be a foil or driving force during some episodes.
“If you need me, I’ll be in my dungeon.” HAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHA
"WE AIN'T FOUND SH!T." - Neevok
I'm a lifelong fan of Trek and your observations about Voyager (and Trek, in general) are spot on. Baywatch, Baywatch Nights and Trek too? You spoil us with such an embarrassment of riches! Great video, as always!
7:00 I refuse to accept any context to this; how this scene will forever go in my mind is that was the first thing he said in that scene, completely unprompted and out of the blue.
Tbf even in the episode it was a bit of a non-sequitir.
Lol
"It seems some creatures have the capacity to fill spaces you never knew were empty"
Voyager is unironically my favourite Star Trek show and part of that really is that it’s so often just a protracted series of memes strung into full length episodes.,
I like this episode just fine, and think it *was* in fact a dark and morally grey episode. Even Tuvix being a bit creepy was, I think, intentional. You know he's not going to survive the episode, so they make you think he's going to turn out to be a villain who you can feel good about seeing killed. And then it turns out that, nope, he's just a guy who doesn't want to die, and you end up feeling sick inside for siding with the characters and wanting the regulars back at the expense of the guest star. (though I do grant you that that requires you to want Neelix back on at least some level... :p )
And I'll never understand why everyone's so down on Janeway for not pretending that the ship is a democracy. Like, how dare she act like she's in charge just because she so happens to be in charge? :p
It wasn't morally grey, though. It was morally black.
You make good points, but Janeway, and Starfleet, isn't a brutal dictatorship either. As Picard once told Data, Starfleet isn't looking for officers who blindly follow orders. In this case, if Janeway is ordering an officer to an unjust death, they should have the right to refuse or, at least, resign from duty.
Tuvix comes together because I’m dressed like a cat
i love your breakdown and your narration is hilarious and on POINT.
I absolutely LOVE your hilarious take on this episode! 😂😂😂
When I saw that episode, I thought that asking him one single question would resolve the dilemma:
"If yu saying you want to continue to exist as Tuvix is because this is both the will of Tuvok and Neelix, then would Tuvok and Neelix ask to be refusioned if we separated them?"
The fact than neither of them expressed the will to be remerged afterward clearly indicate he was holding hostage two individual against their will.
Yep. It could have been handled better but Janeway was absolutely correct.
I would ask "how can you be trusted as a Starfleet officer if you choose to sacrifice life of a civilian to keep on living this accidental life?"
*RIP Tuvix*
_"He had to split"_
I forgot that "Neelix made 'cheese' that got the ship sick" was a thing that happened.
"get this cheese to sick bay"
As a child I was hoping that they will save all three of them, they knew conditions to replicate people by a transporter after Rikers accident.
Hahaha “SEX.” “I beg your pardon” might be the best use of lack of context ever