Was just reading how E flat major was considered the most 'heroic' and 'majestic' of the keys. Apparently, Beethoven's was so influential with this opinion, it became part of the soviet-realism checklist when assessing a new work. I just read that and thought of this video.
Wow, that's probably how Shostakovich went against the expectations with his 9th symphony. And he could really be executed for writing it (happily, he wasn't).
@@пейнтболмосквы... he would not have been executed for that, that's silly, even for the most dystopic image americans have of the soviet union, that's just flat out ridiculous
@@orb3796 Well, he did take to sleeping in the stairwell of his apartment for awhile so that his family wouldn't have to be there when he was arrested.
I feel like "How X Writes for Orchestra" could become a great series. Haydn, Mozart, C.P.E. Bach, Mahler, Brahms, Wagner. There are many great symphonists to choose from. There's even really nice ways to tie them together. Haydn learned a lot from studying C.P.E. Bach's style, as did Mozart. Haydn and Mozart had a ton of influence on each other. The later romantics took a lot of lessons from Beethoven.
I'm probably one of the most massive geeks in your audience when it comes to Beethoven, and I wouldn't mind just listening to you talking and illustrating his symphonies, especially in terms of orchestration which still is very hard for me, for hours on end. I know a lot of effort goes into analysing and making videos like this, and I just want you to know that it's massively appreciated!
@@mikegrossmanmusic Yes, he's great! And I've seen all his videos. Though they focus mostly on arrangements and counterpoint, which I also love, but it feels like there's a void when it comes to equally in-depth analysis of orchestration. In video form at least, I have no shortage of bone dry books on the subject.
Was just about to write the same request. I could listen to measure by measure analysis of any Beethoven piece. All of his symphonies would be incredible. Either way, thanks for what you have already done.
@@christianweatherbroadcasting If you're not even Catholic, you're missing out on the sacraments and a whole lot of other resources Jesus left us. Instead of preaching you should get your stuff in order first.
Very well explained! Would love to see you do a series on orchestration. Perhaps you could explain "why does Tchaikovsky always sound like Tchaikovsky?"
To be honest just that whole "Mighty Five" style of 19th century Russian orchestration! There's something thrilling about how those orchestral pieces are arranged, always such clarity, even when the whole orchestra is playing ff, you never lose track of the tune. And yet it's still so distinctively Russian!
David - you had me at Beethoven. Would love to see more of pouring through the scores of the old masters and isolating elements like orchestration, harmonic analysis, structure, etc. +1
love your channel Bruce. if I may, I noticed something really cool in Beethoven's 21st piano sonata, the Waldstein. if I'm not mistaken, this is the first sonata Beethoven writes on a more expanded piano: for the first time in history, F6 isn't the highest note on the keyboard. I believe A6 is the highest note on the new piano, and it isn't until the 23rd piano sonata the Apassionata that we go all the way up to C7. The reason I'm saying all this is, in the first movement of the Waldstein, we have only ONE note above F6 in the entire exposition, Before he shows it, he goes up to F6 over and over and over, as if to trick people into still thinking that's the peak. But then, a single measure of F#6 played at the absolute tail end of the exposition. The way Beethoven prepares and shows it is extremely dramatic. People hearing the piece for the first time must have surely known this piano was newly expanded, with many musicians in the audience knowing it went tip to A6 now. When the piece modulates to A major int he development, after all the constant scales shooting up but never reaching past F6 except for that one measure, people must have thought "okay it's A major, SURELY he will go all the way up to A6 now." But he doesn't, he instead goes back to C major. We get a single new note, G6, all the way in measure 208 - finally a new brand new note, and it's the next highest note after the F#6 Beethoven teased us with only for an instant. Are we EVER going to reach A6? Now listen to the full rising passages at measure 225 and 267 :) It gives the piece a whole new look, doesn't it? I've never heard anyone talk about this, I'd love it if you took a look (and decided to make a video ;) ) but just wanted to share it. Cheers!
Ah the Eroica! My favorite of Beethoven's symphonies. The first movement totally obliterated any apprehension I had of classical music when I first heard it, launching me down a lifelong journey of musical discovery. I enjoyed your analysis, thanks for the great video!
For breadth of conception and all-encompassing awesomeness, the first movement of the Eroica as a sonata-allegro has never been surpassed, not even by Beethoven himself. The Ninth's opening movement is pretty close, though.
@@MaestroTJS Indeed, the 9th's first movement is another one of my favorites! Undeniably monumental piece of orchestral music. That and every time Beethoven includes a fugato in his symphonies.
@@flemingbock We could be here all day extolling the virtues of his symphonies, I'm sure. ;) The Ninth is a special listen. It's almost too much for just any time and it's kind of frightening being in its presence. Apparently the scherzo movement was partly derived from a fugue for orchestra that he wanted to do but never got around to doing in its entirety, if you didn't know that.
the descending scale idea you discuss around 9:00 is very similar to the 'shepard tone' idea from the 20th century, appears Beethoven was also aware of it
If you look at a lot of Beethoven's orchestral scores, you'll notice that what gives his orchestral pieces their signature loudness and "punch" is his generous doubling of chordal thirds. It creates small (yet noticeable) dissonance with the overtones of the root and the fifth. You never see this kind of doubling in Mozart.
@@augusto7681 It depends what you're going for. If you want all the orchestral instruments to blend well with each other, then it's bad to double thirds. If you don't want them to blend well, then double the thirds.
If I try to glean information directly from an orchestral score, I generally wind up a bit overwhelmed from the sheer volume of information within, so I like hearing from someone like you who can extract specific useful information like this.
You made one of the most exciting Beethoven analysis I’ve ever seen on UA-cam! Great work! :) Would love to see more videos like this explaining orchestration fundamentals and analyzing classical masterpieces. Also it would be very interesting to watch how to compose for String Quartets, Piano + Strings and other typical instrument groups
That phrase "Turning up the EQ" reminded me of a part in Beethoven's 9th symphony, 4th movement, in the syncopated "Alla Marcia" section. When the piccolo first comes in, it seems more like a brightening of the timbre than an added voice.
Normally I can't stand Beethoven, but this video really illustrates how the famous dynamism and maximalism of his style is captured by very sophisticated methods--and if nothing else, you have to respect him for those grand, sonoric achievements. Thanks for this, Mr. Bruce! I'd love to see more of these analytical, score-heavy videos on Beethoven and other composers, if one day you discovered the gumption to do more of them.
@@Atlas65 There is a lot of good in Beethoven's music. The way it balances and sounds. For my ear, the Russian composers just have an element of darkness and excitement that I prefer.
I’m really glad to see that all types of art are appreciated online, and the communities interweave as they do. You mentioned Van Gogh’s painting 6:20 which was one of the Nerdwriter1’s recent videos showing that you all draw inspiration from each other, and it’s cool to have access to that kind of constant discussion online. Thanks for putting out great videos!
It shows that Beethoven new all the instruments he was writing for. He made the score so it would fit each instrument. Something that is difficult to do and many (even some famous) composers struggled with. Chopin for example has written two concerto's, but he only really knew how to write for piano and it shows in the orchestration.
"You can omit the 5th, but never really the 3rd" Mozart's Requiem, ending with every instrument playing D and/or A: *awkwardly exits the room (but in all honesty, the ending of the Requiem had nearly no input by Mozart, as the manuscript he wrote out didn't have anything past the Hostia, thus meaning that the last four movements were basically untouched)
Like others, I greatly appreciate the time, effort, and skill you put into your musical analysis videos; this is yet another really thoughtful, informative, and educational piece of work: thanks very much, David.
This is a great lesson on the use of the 5th. To throw in everything to get a big sound can make it muddy. Let the listener fill in the gaps? You've given us a lot to think about. Thanks.
Regarding the lack of instruments playing the 5th note in "tutti" chords, it should be remembered that the fifth note is reinforced by being the second loudest harmonic or overtone in most instruments, when playing the tonic. Hence, a fuller sounding chord. I suggest that a spectral analysis should be carried out for prominent chords in Beethoven's 3rd, perhaps also comparing recordings of different orchestras, to try to judge how balanced these tutti chords are in practice. Of course, Beethoven didn't have access to spectral analysis, but if he did, I am sure that he would've used it!
Fascinating. And I’m not a musician, composer, or theorist. I can’t fathom the genius behind what you explained, and how you deciphered and delivered it. Thank you.
Beethoven was my first proper introduction to classical music, when I joined a choir to sing the 9th symphony, at 14 years old. It was like listening to a miracle, sitting behind the orchestra hearing and watching the music being made. I've always loved how Beethoven writes his woodwind passages, too.
This is a wonderful video David! Though I am a former music professor, It still took me years to "find my path" with my orchestrations. Most of this was from studying and teaching scores by Mozart, Beethoven, Schubert, Brahms, and Richard Strauss, and many other past masters. Then I eventually learned how to incorporate some of what I've learned from playing in rock, R&B, and progressive rock bands. As to your comments about the 3rd Mvt, now and then, I also use my cellos in double stop bowed 5ths, to simulate the power of a rock guitar "chunking" muted root-five chords. I also am very careful about not using to many 5ths in my orchestrations. Composing and orchestration is a life long art and journey of never ending learning...Peace!
Notable work. Thank you for sharing your knowledge, and skill at explaining in an entertaining way. Learning about Beethoven's orchestral chord structures makes listening more interesting.
So in a way Beethoven pioneered what we now call the Barber pole effect used in electronic music, where the pitch gives the illusion of continually rising by sneakily fading overlapping or morphing oscillators or other matched sound sources at different octaves in and out.
I’m very pleased by this, my composition teacher got me to do this to all of the Beethoven symphonies. I strongly believe that this is one the most helpful things I’ve ever done to deepen my understanding of orchestration and composition. Great video as always!
Yes you only touched on the epic achievement of the eroica symphony. I actually heard from some arrogant musicologists, that Beethoven was not a good orchestrator... well I'm not sure what planet they're on. But a Beethoven score makes perfect sense to me. He was especially good with woodwind instruments and the effects and highlights they could produce. This was fascinating to watch this. Thanks.
Very interesting stuff, you’ve persuaded me that I should try more score reading. On a slightly snide note, I would point out that you exhibit such an effective case of Blues Guitar Face that you look the same regardless of whether you’ve got a pick in your mouth or not.
Brilliant! This video came up as a suggested watch on UA-cam having never seen your videos before. As someone who has recently fallen in love with Beethoven's late quartets (and Beethoven's music in general) this video has spurred me on to go away and listen to the Symphony's properly - some great explanations here. Thanks.
HI Bruce amateur composer here. I really appreciate your work it is really helping me compose I am having a performance and the V and A soon. excited 😆
I’ve been subscribed to your channel for some time now and the content you make is among some of the most informative, thought provoking and perhaps most importantly, practically applicable that I’ve seen on UA-cam. Alongside composer/sound designer, Christian Henson’s channel (from Spitfire Audio), your video essays have opened up entire avenues and approaches to making music which I had not even known existed beforehand. Thank you for your time and energy in this. It really is appreciated.
Thank you very much for this! Very insightful, and as you said helpful even if you don't write anything remotely classical. The Escher like downward spiral is exactly what happens in parts of 'In Vain' by Georg Friedrich Haas, but on a microtonal level. This technique of arrangement by 'equalising' but on a much sharper scale than 12 divisions per octave is what I understand Spectralism to be really about.
Me (reading): words words words SPIRAL words words TONE words words words words words MICROTONE words words words words SCALE words words words words words period
you are and excellent teacher! I couldn't read music let alone compose my way out of a wet paper bag, and I feel like I get it and I really appreciate your effort and skill at communicating music!
Please more videos like this! I am not at all interested in writing for orchestra but all of this information is definitely applicable to a lot of other styles of music.
Enjoy your videos! One thing I wanted to point out was that in the "slight of hand" moment, where the lower strings pick up the melody due to the brass being unable to practically perform those notes, you forget to point out the bassoon also carries the melody. That means that the theme is being performed by all the bass instruments (except timpani, of course) making it also "easier" for the ear to notice. I recall reading once about an early draft of the Symphony No. 8 where Beethoven didn't double the bassoons with the lower strings in the recapitulation of the main theme in Mov 1. Not sure who "corrected" him, but glad they did - there is no way we would hear the melody with just lower strings against a full fortississimo orchestra. I admit that's a different circumstance - the melody wasn't being "carried" from prior measures, but I think it's another example of a clever trick of orchestration.
I enjoyed this. Thank you for posting and your insight on this matter. Coincidently, last week I was just having a conversation with a friend on Beethoven's use of dynamics and "tutti" chords in orchestration. During our conversation, I referenced his piano concerto no.5 "Emperor" (also in the same key as the 3rd symphonie). The opening (Allegro) with that 1-4-5 in Eb Major is so "in your face" so..... Beethoven :). Epic! One of my absolute all time favs.
Love your channel! As an aspiring composer and orchestrator, I'd love to see you and Thomas Goss (from Orchestration Online) do the ultimate youtube orchestration collaboration. It might be geographically impossible but one can dream...
In just the first 4 minutes I have already learned so much from you David. Incredibly interesting. The notion that the 3rds would be the notes to deliver openess surprises me. I would have assumed it would be 5ths. I have always considered the 3rd,( and 4th and 5th) as harmonically denser pieces. To me 6, 7 and 8 are the beautiful melodic ones. Also re the construction of the opening Eb chord - I did not know that in an opening blast each violin e.g. is able to communicate a triad on its own. In other words that a violin would play a chord. I always assumed that you would have say 8 instruments playing root note, then another 8 would play 3rd, and another the 5th and so on. Here is my first edit: after the example of the opening A chord from the 7th, I have to l sightly disagree that they are similar. The decay on the 3rd, 5th is a lot shorter; the 7th has those high As ringing out. Thank you very much for your video. Really learned a lot.
Beethoven may have ommited so many 5ths because the 5th is naturally a strong harmonic in a resonating string. So no need to play if you can already hear it. I find that with strings, voicing a root position triad with the 3rd as a 10th on top, and ommiting the 5th, creates a more full and resonant sound than one with 5th in the middle. Because the 5th is already so audible in the sound, playing it just muddies the overtone series between the root and the 5th, making the chord more difficult to tune and less resonant with the root. With the wind section it's a bit different though. The rich sound of the oboe and flute make closer intervals like 2nds sound good together. Thanks for your videos. They are always brilliantly done and filled with food for thought. Cheers from Buffalo, NY.
Thanks for another spot-on vlog…Why did `nt I have a person like you as professor when studying composition at the Music Academy?...had been a much better education…
There seems to be a heavy reliance on auditory illusion - like Shepard tones, or implying the notes that would be difficult or jarring to play and letting the audience's subconscious fill them in. That's kinda cool!
Thanks David! I've dabbled on a few of your videos before and now am a subscriber. I'm flattered that you think of me as clever! Enjoy all the videos I've stumbled across beforehand and will continue to enjoy!
Now this is actually quite remarkable to me. Most harmony and orchestration books will tell you to double the fifth before you begin doubling the third, which seems to be the last thing to double, yet here we have the opposite to that. If we re-orchestrated it, would it sound thicker and heavier, more Romantic, if we began removing thirds and adding fifths? On another note, that murmuring opening to the scherzo movement is almost proto-minimalist in the way the rhythms keep shifting around with similar material.
Was just reading how E flat major was considered the most 'heroic' and 'majestic' of the keys. Apparently, Beethoven's was so influential with this opinion, it became part of the soviet-realism checklist when assessing a new work. I just read that and thought of this video.
Wow, that's probably how Shostakovich went against the expectations with his 9th symphony. And he could really be executed for writing it (happily, he wasn't).
@@пейнтболмосквы... he would not have been executed for that, that's silly, even for the most dystopic image americans have of the soviet union, that's just flat out ridiculous
@Don P I'm taking the compliment
@@orb3796 Well, he did take to sleeping in the stairwell of his apartment for awhile so that his family wouldn't have to be there when he was arrested.
Mozart had figured it out. Just listen to his 22nd piano concerto
I feel like "How X Writes for Orchestra" could become a great series.
Haydn, Mozart, C.P.E. Bach, Mahler, Brahms, Wagner. There are many great symphonists to choose from.
There's even really nice ways to tie them together. Haydn learned a lot from studying C.P.E. Bach's style, as did Mozart. Haydn and Mozart had a ton of influence on each other. The later romantics took a lot of lessons from Beethoven.
Holst, Saint-Saens, Whitacre
Rimsky Korsakov and Respighi!
Ravel and Mahler!!
You can't exclude on of the best orchestrators, Ravel.
And of course Debussy
I'm probably one of the most massive geeks in your audience when it comes to Beethoven, and I wouldn't mind just listening to you talking and illustrating his symphonies, especially in terms of orchestration which still is very hard for me, for hours on end. I know a lot of effort goes into analysing and making videos like this, and I just want you to know that it's massively appreciated!
Make this comment mine aswell
Richard Atkinson
has some really great Beethoven (and others) analysis on UA-cam.
@@mikegrossmanmusic Yes, he's great! And I've seen all his videos. Though they focus mostly on arrangements and counterpoint, which I also love, but it feels like there's a void when it comes to equally in-depth analysis of orchestration. In video form at least, I have no shortage of bone dry books on the subject.
You did you get into my head? Brilliant video.
Was just about to write the same request. I could listen to measure by measure analysis of any Beethoven piece. All of his symphonies would be incredible. Either way, thanks for what you have already done.
I love how your violin produces a full orchestra sound, timpani and all.
He must've downloaded the new update
@@christianweatherbroadcasting If you're not even Catholic, you're missing out on the sacraments and a whole lot of other resources Jesus left us. Instead of preaching you should get your stuff in order first.
Is the thumbnail a satire of the jacob collier thing with herbie hancock. If so thats brilliant.
thanks, I'm thinking of making satire thumbnails my thing. I enjoy making them!
@@DBruce You should. I find them really funny.
All the best David.
I love these satire thumbnails, first the Nahre video one and now this one are great
You could say they are *clever* ;)
I really, really dislike Jacob Collier.
Very well explained! Would love to see you do a series on orchestration. Perhaps you could explain "why does Tchaikovsky always sound like Tchaikovsky?"
Yes!!! And Rimsky-Korsekov!
To be honest just that whole "Mighty Five" style of 19th century Russian orchestration! There's something thrilling about how those orchestral pieces are arranged, always such clarity, even when the whole orchestra is playing ff, you never lose track of the tune. And yet it's still so distinctively Russian!
magicwheel1 Yes! Russians, please. (Ah, just the musicians. You can leave the political theorists aside.)
magicwheel1, the spelling, that’s why. Same reason “wrongly” is almost always pronounced wrongly but also correctly.
@@garysandiego and the writers!
Hahaha amazing, I thought the video couldn't get better and then I heard your blues ending. Great job and nice guitar skills too!
Thanks Jake, but I think I need some lessons!
"...and we can double it an octave higher in the clarinets."
*ACCORDION*
David - you had me at Beethoven.
Would love to see more of pouring through the scores of the old masters and isolating elements like orchestration, harmonic analysis, structure, etc.
+1
Jay Baker Hey had me at Beethoven FIRST!!! ...Seriously, more scoreness!
That outro made me a patreon supported holy shit it was the best
"Whatever"
Gosh, thank you!
love your channel Bruce. if I may, I noticed something really cool in Beethoven's 21st piano sonata, the Waldstein. if I'm not mistaken, this is the first sonata Beethoven writes on a more expanded piano: for the first time in history, F6 isn't the highest note on the keyboard. I believe A6 is the highest note on the new piano, and it isn't until the 23rd piano sonata the Apassionata that we go all the way up to C7.
The reason I'm saying all this is, in the first movement of the Waldstein, we have only ONE note above F6 in the entire exposition, Before he shows it, he goes up to F6 over and over and over, as if to trick people into still thinking that's the peak. But then, a single measure of F#6 played at the absolute tail end of the exposition. The way Beethoven prepares and shows it is extremely dramatic.
People hearing the piece for the first time must have surely known this piano was newly expanded, with many musicians in the audience knowing it went tip to A6 now. When the piece modulates to A major int he development, after all the constant scales shooting up but never reaching past F6 except for that one measure, people must have thought "okay it's A major, SURELY he will go all the way up to A6 now." But he doesn't, he instead goes back to C major. We get a single new note, G6, all the way in measure 208 - finally a new brand new note, and it's the next highest note after the F#6 Beethoven teased us with only for an instant.
Are we EVER going to reach A6? Now listen to the full rising passages at measure 225 and 267 :) It gives the piece a whole new look, doesn't it? I've never heard anyone talk about this, I'd love it if you took a look (and decided to make a video ;) ) but just wanted to share it. Cheers!
Ah the Eroica! My favorite of Beethoven's symphonies. The first movement totally obliterated any apprehension I had of classical music when I first heard it, launching me down a lifelong journey of musical discovery.
I enjoyed your analysis, thanks for the great video!
For breadth of conception and all-encompassing awesomeness, the first movement of the Eroica as a sonata-allegro has never been surpassed, not even by Beethoven himself. The Ninth's opening movement is pretty close, though.
@@MaestroTJS Indeed, the 9th's first movement is another one of my favorites! Undeniably monumental piece of orchestral music.
That and every time Beethoven includes a fugato in his symphonies.
@@flemingbock We could be here all day extolling the virtues of his symphonies, I'm sure. ;) The Ninth is a special listen. It's almost too much for just any time and it's kind of frightening being in its presence. Apparently the scherzo movement was partly derived from a fugue for orchestra that he wanted to do but never got around to doing in its entirety, if you didn't know that.
@@MaestroTJS Interesting, I did not know this. Thanks for sharing!
The last movement of the eroica is out of this world
I guess Beethoven is your Herbie
I love Beethoven so much including his music 🥰
Thanks hun.
the descending scale idea you discuss around 9:00 is very similar to the 'shepard tone' idea from the 20th century, appears Beethoven was also aware of it
If you look at a lot of Beethoven's orchestral scores, you'll notice that what gives his orchestral pieces their signature loudness and "punch" is his generous doubling of chordal thirds. It creates small (yet noticeable) dissonance with the overtones of the root and the fifth. You never see this kind of doubling in Mozart.
I read somewhere that we shouldnt double thirds, I think is only valid guitar and piano chords
@@augusto7681 It depends what you're going for. If you want all the orchestral instruments to blend well with each other, then it's bad to double thirds. If you don't want them to blend well, then double the thirds.
If I try to glean information directly from an orchestral score, I generally wind up a bit overwhelmed from the sheer volume of information within, so I like hearing from someone like you who can extract specific useful information like this.
You made one of the most exciting Beethoven analysis I’ve ever seen on UA-cam! Great work! :)
Would love to see more videos like this explaining orchestration fundamentals and analyzing classical masterpieces. Also it would be very interesting to watch how to compose for String Quartets, Piano + Strings and other typical instrument groups
I cannot tell you how much your videos help young and self-taught composers like myself in our journey into music composition. Thank you David!!
That phrase "Turning up the EQ" reminded me of a part in Beethoven's 9th symphony, 4th movement, in the syncopated "Alla Marcia" section. When the piccolo first comes in, it seems more like a brightening of the timbre than an added voice.
measure 351
Normally I can't stand Beethoven, but this video really illustrates how the famous dynamism and maximalism of his style is captured by very sophisticated methods--and if nothing else, you have to respect him for those grand, sonoric achievements. Thanks for this, Mr. Bruce! I'd love to see more of these analytical, score-heavy videos on Beethoven and other composers, if one day you discovered the gumption to do more of them.
Why can’t you stand Beethoven?
If you can't stand Beethoven, you probably haven't listened to good interpretations. Beethoven is deep af.
I have never heard, "I can´t stand" and "Beethoven" in the same sentence before.
@@Atlas65 There is a lot of good in Beethoven's music. The way it balances and sounds. For my ear, the Russian composers just have an element of darkness and excitement that I prefer.
@@jjaus I really do like them too.
OH how I wished this went on for HOURS, David! Thanks for a delicious video!
I’m really glad to see that all types of art are appreciated online, and the communities interweave as they do. You mentioned Van Gogh’s painting 6:20 which was one of the Nerdwriter1’s recent videos showing that you all draw inspiration from each other, and it’s cool to have access to that kind of constant discussion online. Thanks for putting out great videos!
It shows that Beethoven new all the instruments he was writing for.
He made the score so it would fit each instrument. Something that is difficult to do and many (even some famous) composers struggled with.
Chopin for example has written two concerto's, but he only really knew how to write for piano and it shows in the orchestration.
Just imagine what masterpieces we'd get to hear if Chopin was on the level of for example Wanger regarding the orchestration
"You can omit the 5th, but never really the 3rd"
Mozart's Requiem, ending with every instrument playing D and/or A: *awkwardly exits the room
(but in all honesty, the ending of the Requiem had nearly no input by Mozart, as the manuscript he wrote out didn't have anything past the Hostia, thus meaning that the last four movements were basically untouched)
omit the 5th and keep the third to preserve the tonal function of the chord, not necessarily in general
Thanks, I don't find a lot of orchestration analysis on UA-cam, so this is a big help!
Like others, I greatly appreciate the time, effort, and skill you put into your musical analysis videos; this is yet another really thoughtful, informative, and educational piece of work: thanks very much, David.
This is absolutely brilliantly made! I could watch you show and explain like this with SO many of my favorite classical pieces!
This is a great lesson on the use of the 5th. To throw in everything to get a big sound can make it muddy. Let the listener fill in the gaps? You've given us a lot to think about. Thanks.
many thanks for the great video. the Eroica is one of my favorite symphonies and it was cool to learn some more about its orchestration.
Somehow not surprised Beethoven was writing with Shepherd tones centuries before they were described
Regarding the lack of instruments playing the 5th note in "tutti" chords, it should be remembered that the fifth note is reinforced by being the second loudest harmonic or overtone in most instruments, when playing the tonic. Hence, a fuller sounding chord. I suggest that a spectral analysis should be carried out for prominent chords in Beethoven's 3rd, perhaps also comparing recordings of different orchestras, to try to judge how balanced these tutti chords are in practice. Of course, Beethoven didn't have access to spectral analysis, but if he did, I am sure that he would've used it!
Fascinating. And I’m not a musician, composer, or theorist. I can’t fathom the genius behind what you explained, and how you deciphered and delivered it. Thank you.
I was just wondering if there was an analysis video on Beethoven's 3rd symphony when I came across yours.
Amazing video!
Wonderful stuff as always.
Beethoven was my first proper introduction to classical music, when I joined a choir to sing the 9th symphony, at 14 years old. It was like listening to a miracle, sitting behind the orchestra hearing and watching the music being made. I've always loved how Beethoven writes his woodwind passages, too.
Awesome video David, very enlightening!
This is a wonderful video David! Though I am a former music professor, It still took me years to "find my path" with my orchestrations. Most of this was from studying and teaching scores by Mozart, Beethoven, Schubert, Brahms, and Richard Strauss, and many other past masters. Then I eventually learned how to incorporate some of what I've learned from playing in rock, R&B, and progressive rock bands. As to your comments about the 3rd Mvt, now and then, I also use my cellos in double stop bowed 5ths, to simulate the power of a rock guitar "chunking" muted root-five chords. I also am very careful about not using to many 5ths in my orchestrations. Composing and orchestration is a life long art and journey of never ending learning...Peace!
I love this style of analysis!!!! Great job and keep them coming!!!
Its the space between the voices of the notes that create an airy breathy and real sounding hit.
Notable work. Thank you for sharing your knowledge, and skill at explaining in an entertaining way. Learning about Beethoven's orchestral chord structures makes listening more interesting.
"tense subdued power".... YES! Such a great composition technique. Great observation!
I am not a musician trained or otherwise. I'm a listener. And this really helps me in my listening, to hear these pieces anew.
World class educator - clear, concise & connected! Thanks again David :)
I think this is my favorite video, to date, of your channel. Thank you :)
Beethoven is the man!
So in a way Beethoven pioneered what we now call the Barber pole effect used in electronic music, where the pitch gives the illusion of continually rising by sneakily fading overlapping or morphing oscillators or other matched sound sources at different octaves in and out.
I’m very pleased by this, my composition teacher got me to do this to all of the Beethoven symphonies. I strongly believe that this is one the most helpful things I’ve ever done to deepen my understanding of orchestration and composition. Great video as always!
One of the best contents on composition. Thanks a ton for mentoring folks interested in music in-depth.
excellent video. thanks for UA-cam, and all the software makes this analysis possible. nice job.
Yes you only touched on the epic achievement of the eroica symphony.
I actually heard from some arrogant musicologists, that Beethoven was not a good orchestrator... well I'm not sure what planet they're on. But a Beethoven score makes perfect sense to me. He was especially good with woodwind instruments and the effects and highlights they could produce.
This was fascinating to watch this. Thanks.
I'm just a music listener, buy anyway I enjoyed your explanation very much. And of course, I envy your acquaintance with Beethoven!
Very interesting stuff, you’ve persuaded me that I should try more score reading.
On a slightly snide note, I would point out that you exhibit such an effective case of Blues Guitar Face that you look the same regardless of whether you’ve got a pick in your mouth or not.
This video was really **CLEVER** (it was genius).
This is made really well. Captivating and keeps your attention well done mate!
I like this, enjoy it and really appreciate your presentation! Thank you.
I found this very helpful. Perhaps one day I'll attempt symphonic writing again.
You are great! Thanks David
Thank you so much! This was actually very helpful!
I am learning so much! Thank you!
thank you, that was interesting and informative. the editing must have taken ages, a blinding job well done
Very insightful commentary.
Brilliant! This video came up as a suggested watch on UA-cam having never seen your videos before. As someone who has recently fallen in love with Beethoven's late quartets (and Beethoven's music in general) this video has spurred me on to go away and listen to the Symphony's properly - some great explanations here. Thanks.
Excellent breakdown really enlightening
HI Bruce amateur composer here. I really appreciate your work it is really helping me compose I am having a performance and the V and A soon. excited 😆
I’ve been subscribed to your channel for some time now and the content you make is among some of the most informative, thought provoking and perhaps most importantly, practically applicable that I’ve seen on UA-cam. Alongside composer/sound designer, Christian Henson’s channel (from Spitfire Audio), your video essays have opened up entire avenues and approaches to making music which I had not even known existed beforehand. Thank you for your time and energy in this. It really is appreciated.
Thanks, I subscribe to Christian's vlogs too and enjoy them.
Thank you very much for this! Very insightful, and as you said helpful even if you don't write anything remotely classical.
The Escher like downward spiral is exactly what happens in parts of 'In Vain' by Georg Friedrich Haas, but on a microtonal level. This technique of arrangement by 'equalising' but on a much sharper scale than 12 divisions per octave is what I understand Spectralism to be really about.
This must be similar to the Shepard Tone.
Me (reading): words words words SPIRAL words words TONE words words words words words MICROTONE words words words words SCALE words words words words words period
Well that's odd how I came across this video exactly a year later lol. Excellent video mate!
you are and excellent teacher! I couldn't read music let alone compose my way out of a wet paper bag, and I feel like I get it and I really appreciate your effort and skill at communicating music!
The jumping the octave part when the parts are getting too low has changed my music haha it sounds so much better on the ears
One of the best videos about music in youtube! Great Job.
Another excellent video David - keep going with this orchestration series, it's pitched just right.
Please more videos like this! I am not at all interested in writing for orchestra but all of this information is definitely applicable to a lot of other styles of music.
Man, I absolutelylove your t-shirt!
Really interesting video. Thank you!
Such a great analysis and easy to follow! Thank you very much.
Enjoy your videos! One thing I wanted to point out was that in the "slight of hand" moment, where the lower strings pick up the melody due to the brass being unable to practically perform those notes, you forget to point out the bassoon also carries the melody. That means that the theme is being performed by all the bass instruments (except timpani, of course) making it also "easier" for the ear to notice. I recall reading once about an early draft of the Symphony No. 8 where Beethoven didn't double the bassoons with the lower strings in the recapitulation of the main theme in Mov 1. Not sure who "corrected" him, but glad they did - there is no way we would hear the melody with just lower strings against a full fortississimo orchestra. I admit that's a different circumstance - the melody wasn't being "carried" from prior measures, but I think it's another example of a clever trick of orchestration.
I enjoyed this. Thank you for posting and your insight on this matter. Coincidently, last week I was just having a conversation with a friend on Beethoven's use of dynamics and "tutti" chords in orchestration. During our conversation, I referenced his piano concerto no.5 "Emperor" (also in the same key as the 3rd symphonie). The opening (Allegro) with that 1-4-5 in Eb Major is so "in your face" so..... Beethoven :). Epic! One of my absolute all time favs.
Another fabulous video 👍
What a treat! Thank you. Would love to see more of this.
Really fascinating. Please do more of this.
Love your channel! As an aspiring composer and orchestrator, I'd love to see you and Thomas Goss (from Orchestration Online) do the ultimate youtube orchestration collaboration. It might be geographically impossible but one can dream...
I simply loved the video. Subscribed...
In just the first 4 minutes I have already learned so much from you David. Incredibly interesting. The notion that the 3rds would be the notes to deliver openess surprises me. I would have assumed it would be 5ths. I have always considered the 3rd,( and 4th and 5th) as harmonically denser pieces. To me 6, 7 and 8 are the beautiful melodic ones. Also re the construction of the opening Eb chord - I did not know that in an opening blast each violin e.g. is able to communicate a triad on its own. In other words that a violin would play a chord. I always assumed that you would have say 8 instruments playing root note, then another 8 would play 3rd, and another the 5th and so on.
Here is my first edit: after the example of the opening A chord from the 7th, I have to l sightly disagree that they are similar. The decay on the 3rd, 5th is a lot shorter; the 7th has those high As ringing out. Thank you very much for your video. Really learned a lot.
thank you so much for these
Really helpful! Thanks.
This was amazing!
man you pump out nice content
Beethoven may have ommited so many 5ths because the 5th is naturally a strong harmonic in a resonating string. So no need to play if you can already hear it.
I find that with strings, voicing a root position triad with the 3rd as a 10th on top, and ommiting the 5th, creates a more full and resonant sound than one with 5th in the middle. Because the 5th is already so audible in the sound, playing it just muddies the overtone series between the root and the 5th, making the chord more difficult to tune and less resonant with the root. With the wind section it's a bit different though. The rich sound of the oboe and flute make closer intervals like 2nds sound good together.
Thanks for your videos. They are always brilliantly done and filled with food for thought. Cheers from Buffalo, NY.
My favorite Beethoven symphony is the third. Very informative video!
Thanks for another spot-on vlog…Why did `nt I have a person like you as professor when studying composition at the Music Academy?...had been a much better education…
Thank you for sharing your expertise! I really enjoyed this analysis of Beethoven's 3rd. I hope you do more analysis like this one, soon.
your best video yet!!!
great great video maestro Bruce!
There seems to be a heavy reliance on auditory illusion - like Shepard tones, or implying the notes that would be difficult or jarring to play and letting the audience's subconscious fill them in. That's kinda cool!
Thanks David! I've dabbled on a few of your videos before and now am a subscriber. I'm flattered that you think of me as clever! Enjoy all the videos I've stumbled across beforehand and will continue to enjoy!
Now this is actually quite remarkable to me. Most harmony and orchestration books will tell you to double the fifth before you begin doubling the third, which seems to be the last thing to double, yet here we have the opposite to that. If we re-orchestrated it, would it sound thicker and heavier, more Romantic, if we began removing thirds and adding fifths? On another note, that murmuring opening to the scherzo movement is almost proto-minimalist in the way the rhythms keep shifting around with similar material.
Bloody brilliant. More of these analyses please!
Love what you did with the thumbnail.
That was indeed a violent ripping