WTAF?? Been a subscriber for a while and enjoy your clips. Have not heard of this before, my fuselage and wing kits that I ordered and paid for a year ago are supposed to arrive tomorrow (Australia)! I do NOT want to get to this in 12 months and find faulty materials! I feel your pain friend. Will be watching closely to see what happens.
MSR I'm so sorry to hear you're receiving parts right now, open up those crates tomorrow and inspect the parts for yourself. The fact that an active builder isn't aware of this issue and whether or not they are affected is a big part of why I made this video. I'm sorry you had to hear it from me, you should have heard something from Van's instead. They specifically stated they were engineering parts "so you don't have cracks around your holes in the future" back on 1/16/22 in a video with Greg and Rian.. but that did not come to fruition.
Same with me. I already got the Empennage Kit of the RV7, the Wing Kit is crated (all with parts on the Vans List) and the remaining Kits are being produced. Everything must be send to Germany, which is quite expensive. Please lets put together and share the costs for a law suit if necessary. It would not be acceptable, if they send laser cut parts half around the world knowing that they very likely have to replaced. Who bears the additional transportation costs for the replacement parts? And how can it be - if so - that there is no quality control of each Package before sending aircraft parts around the world? It is not acceptable that the customer has to find out during the building progress (or after a crash) that his parts were affected and needed to be replaced. In addition, the sales price for these aircrafts will drop. Thinking about to change to Sling and try to get my money back I have already paid for two Kits with lawyer from Oregon.
Ryan, I have now watched yours and Austin’s videos on this topic and have been reading up on the prominent builders forum and all I can say is this brings me to tears! Your heart must be aching. Like you and everyone else now dealing with this issue YOU ALL pour your heart and soul into this project. I know because I poured my heart and soul into my RV-7 completed late last year. I can’t fully empathize, but any time you have to re-do something it’s very painful. I was two days before my final inspection and discovered the engine builder missed a critical step in the build which rendered my constant speed prop non functional. I had to completely remove my engine and ship it back to the builder for the fix from AZ to FL. In the end the builder made it right but it delayed completion by 3 months. I could have just gone with a fixed pitch prop but everyone told me to go through with it and let the engine builder make it right. Despite all the re-work, time required, and frustration to send the engine back for the fix, I’m very happy that I did it. I have confidence that Vans’s will make this right for everyone affected and you will get through this!!
Hi Ryan. Appreciate your video, and understand your frustration. We will be posting and communicating specific information, including a list of affected parts based on reports, testing and analysis. We will also be communicting about what you can and need to do, and posting service information as necessary. And, I'll try to give you a call so we can talk, if you'd like.
...And now, 3 months later, the reality is even worse. I feel for all of the builders. Not so much for the people that made just inexuseable business decisions that brought down a great company.
When I first heard about the Lazer cutting problem that's the first thing that popped into my head. What about overheat of the metal and what kind of aluminum is in these kits. Was there any tests done anywhere on changing the temper of the metal, or did these companies even think about it? How about it engineering ? I can just hear it now at meetings. It'll be fine, don't worry about it, it's not cost effective and so on and so on. Just get it done.
@@judd_s5643I presume you are nit referring to the decision to use laser cutting which I would call an engineering decision, but I suppose it was done for business reasons. I would have expected (I’m an RV builder and an aero engineer) that some research and testing would have gone in to this before delivering parts. Guess not
My RV4 has been flying for just over 25 years now, in Australia. Nothing was pre-drilled on those kits. I didn’t experience any issues with the dimpling for 3/32 and 1/8 rivets, however the fuel tank skins and associated attaching flanges, had serious cracks in the dimples for the attaching screws. I filed the cracks out, many quite deeply. It would be interesting to see an engineers view, on the likely hood of crack propagation in later kits, as well as feedback from aircraft owners, who have many hours on their aircraft.
Thanks for posting this video. I can't imagine being in your shoes. I hope Vans understands the impact this type of viral issue will have on their business if they don't get out in front of it FAST. Greg's reply on VAF was excellent but I think there are a couple of things Vans needs to do NOW. First, publish a list of the part numbers and manufacture dates of the parts known to be affected by this issue and update it daily. That will allow builders to see if this impacts them. It's possible the problem will end up affecting a small number of parts within a relatively narrow manufacture date range. If so, a large group of builders can sleep at night knowing their build is OK. I have a wing kit waiting to be built and I went out to my hangar yesterday and looked at most of the parts and documented the manufacture date of the parts as well as the general condition of the holes. Most of my parts look "OK"- especially those wrapped with the blue vinyl. But, I had a couple dozen laser cut parts manufactured in 2022 with no blue vinyl that don't look right. The holes are not smoothly concentric like the parts with punched holes. The second thing I would do is come up with an easily understood process for builders to replace affected parts and clearly communicate that to ALL employees throughout the organization. TODAY! Based on Austin Manke's recent experience, Vans employees clearly have not been told how to respond to this. I personally feel that any builder with affected parts should get replacement parts sent ASAP at no cost regardless of what the engineering test results are. And we shouldn't be subjected to a stringent verification process to prove our parts are affected. Make it easy. Trust your customers. I should be able to send an email saying I want the following parts replaced and if they are in stock, they should ship immediately. I also think these replacement parts should take priority over parts going into new kits that haven't shipped yet (and I'm waiting for my empennage kit to ship so I can start my RV-14A build). After telling builders for 50 years that cracks in dimples are to be avoided at all costs and after builders have spent hundreds of hours deburring holes to avoid these cracks, there is no way Vans can convince us now that some cracks are acceptable. Vans reputation as a kit manufacturer is on the line and how they choose to address this problem will affect their business for years (decades?) down the road. I really hope you get this resolved to your satisfaction soon and I'm really sorry you're having to deal with this. Thanks again for posting this video. It will help all those that come after you. Hang in there!
Fully concur. I’ve been very interested in their RV-15, but short of a dramatic and fast response from Vans to help you and other builders (Greg’s response is a start, and I appreciate their engineering rigor, but when? Next week? Next year?) I believe I will stick with my trusty C182. Please keep us posted with details about their response and how long it took them to provide corrected materials to you.
I've waited a month to comment... You make me feel lucky that I haven't started my 14 fuselage yet. All the ribs and bulkheads are laser cut. Some look great and others I will not put in the plane regardless of what Van's says. The waiting to find out is driving me nuts but I'm lucky to not be tearing shit apart like you. Thanks for sharing your pain.
Incorrect heat control during the laser cutting process. Depending on the aluminum alloy it might not be possible to prevent heat from altering the temper of the metal along the laser cut edges. Building a temperature controlled enclosure for the laser cutter and figuring out temperature ramp up/down and ideal enclosure temperature during cutting would be a long process of testing - especially if the manufacture of the aluminum sheet has no data on laser cutting followed by mechanically distorting (such as dimpling) the heat affected zone. Perhaps blasting chilled air right at the point of the laser cutting could prevent this problem? That's a problem with sheet steel with laser or plasma cutting. It can be almost completely mitigated with plasma cutting by using a water table so only the smallest part of the edge right next to the torch is affected.
it's not the size of the hole that is the problem, it's the fact that the laser cutting process alters the temper of the aluminum making it more brittle and prone to cracking
Thank you for making this Ryan. Well said, and you have every right to be frustrated given how much time you invested into trying to work with these parts. I really hope they can get this worked out.
Laser heating should anneal the metal making it softer, not harder. It’s the reason you use rivets instead of welding. For steel welding the reduction in strength is not much which is why you can weld steel and net it’s a stronger joint than bolting. But AL undergoes like factor of 2 reduction of strength. The AL T6 temper goes to like T3 or less. And unfortunately you can’t just do a reheat treatment, because the whole piece needs to undergo the treatment. It could be that the region around the hole has lost its temper and maybe that lack of strength is what is cracking. Need a real metallurgist (which I am not) to tell what is going on here, but overtly it does not sound correct that temper loss (softening) would cause cracks by itself.
We are farther along than you on this section. We (3 of us) just got wind of this issue over the weekend. We are going to go over this now with a fine tooth comb. Unfortunately not going to Oshkosh, but would like to be a fly on the wall at the Vans tent this year. They are going to take a beating…
people need to bring this up at Oshkosh to teh kit companies. ALL of them. Make sure they are all aware of this issue incase they were thinking of doing similar to Vans.
Building can be frustrating. Most of the time, it's my fault. This time, it wasn't. Doesn't really change anything though. There will be a fix, project will move forward. It will take longer and cost more -- just like everything else in aviation.
So holes were slightly undersized and cracked when dimpled? I drilled , deburred ,dimpled all 30,000 plus rivets on my 2000 RV-6 and did not have any holes crack from dimpling. Bummer is a understatement for your problem.
I haven't done the inventory on my fuselage kit yet. Man, i'm not looking forward to this either. I already know Im going to be in the same boat. I sure hope Van's makes this right with everyone. Luckily for me is I haven't ran into it YET! 😮
Thanks for posting this video. Extremely helpful to others who are waiting for parts. Wonder what I should expect with my QB fuselage coming in mid August. Any suggestions?
Long ago, (1990) Fokker Aircraft in NL investigated lasercutting of parts, especially rivet holes. It looked very economic. Sectioning the holes, and microscoping them, showed extensive heat affected zones around the holes. This was the method to ruin the tuned properties of the aluminium in a zone of say maximum 1 mm from the edge. So what, 1 mm would you say ? Once a small fatique crack is there, is developed, the total fatigue life is used for 90% and 10% is left over. (Ask every fatique specialist over the world to confirm.) The proper method is: drill pilot hole. drill to larger diameter with sharp dril. Debur. Ream if necessary. Place corrosion inhibiter. Place rivet. Reaming is benificial. Very small cracks of 0,1 mm in the hole-edge by the drilling are removed and the fatigue life becomes still longer. Sorry for the lecture, but it is for nothing.
This issue is going to be huge for Vans. There is no doubt that the laser process has essentially heat treated the aluminum if in fact, laser is the process being used. I canceled my order back in December 2021 simply based on shipping delays but I have to say I’m glad I did now. I certainly hope that you get your issue resolved and Vans is able to take care of all of this and remain strong. Strong.
Fast forward to October 2023 ... This issues HAS caused BIG issues for Van's Aircraft. They are now having serious cash flow problems trying to address this and may other internal issues. Hope this isn't the death of Van's, but it's certainly the biggest challenge and deepest s**t that the company has ever been in!
@@simonbaxter8001 early december 2023 and they've filed for chapter 11. I feel for all the people out there part way through their build who are going to get royally done over by this.
Van's future depends on solving this problem. They need to stop with the detailed emails and simply say we're going to STOP SHIPPING KITS UNTIL ALL EXISTING PARTS ARE REPLACED IN KITS SHIPPED IN THE LAST 18 MONTHS. I have tons of these parts in the wing kit but I have not yet started building the wing so at least I don't have to disassemble but they have a very small window to make this right.
This reminds me of a manufacturing/airworthiness fiasco on the Canadair Regional Jet when the maker of anti-ice leading edge piccolo tubes (made from very thin titanium sheet rolled and welded), an aerospace company in LA, bought an Electro Discharge Machining rig to make the little holes instead of normal drills. EDM melts the hole with a controlled arc. The notified the OEM of the process change, but there was no follow up. The tubes went into service and eventually started cracking at the holes and breaking up (titanium having so much spring-back when formed), leaving the wing without anti-ice protection outboard of the fracture, just random wing overheat warnings. Just dumb ass luck there wasn't an incident. Turns out the EDM process leaves a hole with a very rough burnt bore, a perfect crack propagator. An AD required replacement of tubes, and the company didn't want to scrap their automated EDM rig so it was agreed they'd make the hole by EDM undersize, then someone had to ream them to final size with a reamer after to provide a clean bore. Laser cut holes would have the same problem.
Laser tempering and cracking of aluminum has been known in aviation for a long time. It’s a shame someone was able to sell them on that process. Anything you touch the edge with (file) will cause cracking like tempered glass. I’m curious of how far the heat affected area is from the edge or if any of the parts can be salvaged by drilling out the temper and using over sized rivets.
@@Parkhill57I think the problem is that welding AL ruins the T6 temper. Like half the strength. Steel does not degrade like that from welding, so your suggestions would be fine for steel. What I don’t understand in all this is that if the holes are bad, then why not just don’t use them? Just drill your own holes the right way for rivets between the bad holes. Not ideal given one bought a kit to avoid that, but Ce la vie if it rescues the kit
Good news: You got me to subscribe to your channel. Bad news: I am not as far along as you, but I have effected parts. I hope Van's is considering the far-reaching effects of this. Not only could me and my family's safety be compromised, but in the aviation world, this type of situation will follow your aircraft for it's life. In the future, unless you have 100% documentation from the factory that you had ZERO effected parts, the ability to sell your aircraft, or get a fair price, will also be compromised. This is regardless if they have inspected parts or Quick-builds when they went out the door.
I hear you my man I’m involved with this on my 10:-( I wanted to ask you were you parts cracking in the red or yellow color on the list vans released for your 14??? I’m just curious because you said all those seat ribs etc are all cracking to some degree???? I’m sure my 10 is similar
I had some cracks on red and yellow parts, the thumbnail for this video with the cracks is actually a red-tier part. Seat ribs are blue of course, it's just the point in the build where I really recognized there was a problem.
@@RyanE67 oh okay just wanted to make sure the cracking parts were NOT blue or green ones. I am building a 10 and I have to replace ribs in my nearly complete wings. I did not start my fuse yet until they send me replacement parts
@@jerseypilot83 plenty of blue parts cracked too, then i followed the guidance (at the time) to file the cracks out... which took too many holes out of spec.. and so I'm subsequently asking for no-cost replacement since all I did was follow their guidance.
@@RyanE67 I can’t believe you said the blue parts are cracking, too… but Vans says it’s okay …. Complete BS! I really hope they will send out free replacements because they really messed up. All the blue and green parts I guess are good to go even with crack they said to you too???? I was playing around with first 2 steps of fuselage today and I didn’t prime but dimpled and debuted and riveted to test and see if it would crack and it DID NOT! I guess that is good but I’m still going to use the punched parts. I have no choice but to wait. They say we can use blue and green but that’s crazy…. I say it’s cutting corners extremely!
My heart breaks watching you having to drill out all of those rivets. That is an amazing amount of work, time, expense and frustration. It sure makes Vans look bad.
Ouch!!! Obviously a manufacturing or material problem!! These problems will add thousands of hrs to the build. Uhh I never commited but I wanted to build a Mustang ll.
this is a huge $hitstorm for Van's, and it is going to be a huge financial burden to them, but the one thing Van's has going for them is their customers truly love their product! The resale value of aircraft built with laser cut kits is going to be seriously affected by this, for those building now, be sure to extensively document (take literally thousands of pics) your efforts to identify, and replace affected structures to be able to prove they are built right when it's time to sell.
Filing is not the answer. I'm a retired A & P mechanic, 50 + years experience. Military and civil, large and small aircraft. Your Filing puts small scratches thru the hole and promotes the cracking. Hot coin dimpleing is possibly an answer along with drilling and or reaming. I've done a lot of hot dimpleing in the military and it's a tricky process. Their engineers will have to come up with an approved fix. You would be better off to wait for one , otherwise you might cause even more problems. Not a good place to be in. I feel bad for you guys that bought that kit. Maybe get together with other kit owners and start a lawsuit.
Improper debur will cause cracking. I know people run files on the holes. Not the same as a countersink debur. Not say 100% thats the issue but not uncommon. I'm an A&P with extensive sheetmetal experience and have helped build several RV. There product has gone down hill
Hot dimples? Filing? Why not debuting tool, a whole lot faster. Filing makes micro cracks. You should see all the back drilling needed to replace thin sheet metal parts on the U-2. We are not allowed to laser ablate thin skins because of the damage done by the lasers.
The dimpling process should not require working on the holes with a file. Cracked dimples indicate the material is not the correct material, not in the correct condition to be dimpled, or the wrong dimpling process has been called out. Don't assume any kit manufacturer knows how to build airplanes. One popular 4 place composite manufacturer in the southeast used an air conditioning duct sheet metal brake to form a flight control bracket out 0.120 6061, no bend radius, when confronted by an A/P and an engineer they refused to accept that they were doing something wrong.
Whoa!? Seems that the current processes that make the most accuracy cause some heretofore unforeseen new problems. It will be either the defining moment of Van’s commitment to the future or their quick downfall.
What's the follow up to this? Is Vans standing by their product and sorting you and all the other builders out with new parts? I know they found the problem with the laser cutting method at the subcontractor, and have fixed the issue ongoing. It's a real FUBAR but Vans is surely a good upstanding bunch and will make it "right" for the builders.
work hardening through laser cutting is not some new thing, I cant believe they did not do enough testing. I think it is fine making radio flyers but not suitable for this kind of airplane construction.
They need to take the millions of $ in profit, and put it back into the company. It's no longer profit, it is insurance. If they don't, they might as well liquidate.
They are using cheep aluminum, i you can Lazer cut aluminum and still stretch it, they need to compensate with a different grade and harness so that the temper is a proper grade after heat
I think you may be incorrect, the aluminum used is high quality (aircraft grade) and not intended to be heated as this affects its strength and becomes more brittle (thus cracking). If they use a grade of aluminum that can still flex after heating then its overall strength is not as strong and not to the standards for these aircraft........That is how it was explained to me so I hope that makes sense.........and of course, I could wrong as well, but makes sense to me.
The only solution that will allow Vans to maintain their reputation is a quick build portion or monetary compensation for builders who lost labor due to Vans error. I’m a HUGE supporter of Vans but still hold them to a standard when conduction business. When CEOs, etc, are brought in things like this happens.
I'm sure it won't come to that.. for a vast majority of the parts, any issue should be noticed on preflight or if anything during annual condition inspection before they become actual problems or safety hazards.
Laser cut was supposed to be cheaper than CNC. Obviously their testing QC program was defective. Rivets are so 20th century. Ford puts their aluminum together with glue, Northrop Grumman uses glue. Rivets belong on radial engine aircraft.
I recently reached out to Vans because I want to buy a kit. They could not (or perhaps are unwilling) to promise a kit with no laser cut parts. Hard pass for me and builders with even the slightest chance of having laser cut parts will have resale challenges IMO.
We went to Van's years ago and all sheet metal was punched/bent in house on very,very expensive CNC punch machines - but they literally printed money for Van's. I guess things changed and Van's decided to outsource the core of their business for money reasons. This is what happens, a real shame.
I don't believe it was money issues that convinced them to outsource, it was demand. They couldn't keep up with orders and thought they had a contractor that could help in the short term until they could get more machines set up in their facility and increase supply. Unfortunately it didn't work as planned...
so sorry to see this. I loved Vans - RVs and home building. but I think you guys are optimistic on this deal. I cannot see how Vans can attract anyone with rescue cash simply because of the huge liability they just incurred with all the builds showing cracking. There will undoubtedly be lawsuits anytime an RV crashes - or even gets grounded, or cant get an airworthiness certificate. . I can't see how any insurance company will touch this - and i am thinking the only logical conclusion here is Vans declaring bankruptcy - and the company closing down. I cant imagine Van G putting himself in legal and financial ruin. I don't think he has any other logical solution. , I hope I'm wrong - good luck to all of you dealing with this horrific issue.
It ended up putting them out of business. Now everyone is screwed. Too bad they just didn't drill the holes instead of taking the easy way out and laser drilling them.
This is 100% vans fault. Don't they do research and development? Test parts before producing and selling them? They have since filed Bankruptcy. Wonder if they made good to the people who spent savings on a kit.
As a rusty pilot and not a aircraft builder I cannot see the cracks, the video needs closer images so we can all witness. We don’t disbelieve just can’t see. They made an error, send new parts. Then tell us who the outside manufacturer is?
Vans is having cash flow problems? Imagine that. Outsourcing manufacturing and getting defective holes and corrosion on quick build kits due to defective primer. I really feel for all of the people that are probably going to lose money due to this. I was thinking of buying one. Definitely not now.
No one in this great aircraft kit building operation predicted a change in the metallurgy of 2024 aluminum when exposed to laser cutting??! For shame. Sorry feelings for all involved, hope this KOCK-UP wont kill a great Oregon company.... :(
And then a few days ago the owner released a video saying they were going to stop replacing parts for now and were raising kit prices. RIP Van's. You had a good run.
Vans aircraft totally screwed all vans builders... chapter 11, inferior overseas parts.. seriously? WTF.. And how many are flying with inferior parts..wanna spend 250M for a possible inferior airplan
Filing the holes? I work for an aircraft company and we never file any fastener holes. You are making stress risers with your file, regardless of the heat treat on the metal. I would not keep this video up if you ever plan to sell your airplane. I doubt you could find an AC manual telling you to file the holes---YIKES!!!!
WTAF??
Been a subscriber for a while and enjoy your clips.
Have not heard of this before, my fuselage and wing kits that I ordered and paid for a year ago are supposed to arrive tomorrow (Australia)! I do NOT want to get to this in 12 months and find faulty materials!
I feel your pain friend. Will be watching closely to see what happens.
MSR I'm so sorry to hear you're receiving parts right now, open up those crates tomorrow and inspect the parts for yourself. The fact that an active builder isn't aware of this issue and whether or not they are affected is a big part of why I made this video. I'm sorry you had to hear it from me, you should have heard something from Van's instead. They specifically stated they were engineering parts "so you don't have cracks around your holes in the future" back on 1/16/22 in a video with Greg and Rian.. but that did not come to fruition.
Same with me. I already got the Empennage Kit of the RV7, the Wing Kit is crated (all with parts on the Vans List) and the remaining Kits are being produced. Everything must be send to Germany, which is quite expensive. Please lets put together and share the costs for a law suit if necessary. It would not be acceptable, if they send laser cut parts half around the world knowing that they very likely have to replaced. Who bears the additional transportation costs for the replacement parts? And how can it be - if so - that there is no quality control of each Package before sending aircraft parts around the world? It is not acceptable that the customer has to find out during the building progress (or after a crash) that his parts were affected and needed to be replaced. In addition, the sales price for these aircrafts will drop. Thinking about to change to Sling and try to get my money back I have already paid for two Kits with lawyer from Oregon.
I've built two Long EZ's from plans. All the parts came out awesomely prefect because.... I made all the parts myself.
Ryan, I have now watched yours and Austin’s videos on this topic and have been reading up on the prominent builders forum and all I can say is this brings me to tears! Your heart must be aching. Like you and everyone else now dealing with this issue YOU ALL pour your heart and soul into this project. I know because I poured my heart and soul into my RV-7 completed late last year. I can’t fully empathize, but any time you have to re-do something it’s very painful. I was two days before my final inspection and discovered the engine builder missed a critical step in the build which rendered my constant speed prop non functional. I had to completely remove my engine and ship it back to the builder for the fix from AZ to FL. In the end the builder made it right but it delayed completion by 3 months. I could have just gone with a fixed pitch prop but everyone told me to go through with it and let the engine builder make it right. Despite all the re-work, time required, and frustration to send the engine back for the fix, I’m very happy that I did it. I have confidence that Vans’s will make this right for everyone affected and you will get through this!!
Hi Ryan. Appreciate your video, and understand your frustration. We will be posting and communicating specific information, including a list of affected parts based on reports, testing and analysis. We will also be communicting about what you can and need to do, and posting service information as necessary. And, I'll try to give you a call so we can talk, if you'd like.
...And now, 3 months later, the reality is even worse. I feel for all of the builders. Not so much for the people that made just inexuseable business decisions that brought down a great company.
@@michaelspunich7273what inexcusable decisions are you referring to? Be specific, because I suspect you were in on the conversation.
When I first heard about the Lazer cutting problem that's the first thing that popped into my head. What about overheat of the metal and what kind of aluminum is in these kits. Was there any tests done anywhere on changing the temper of the metal, or did these companies even think about it? How about it engineering ? I can just hear it now at meetings. It'll be fine, don't worry about it, it's not cost effective and so on and so on. Just get it done.
@@judd_s5643I presume you are nit referring to the decision to use laser cutting which I would call an engineering decision, but I suppose it was done for business reasons. I would have expected (I’m an RV builder and an aero engineer) that some research and testing would have gone in to this before delivering parts. Guess not
My RV4 has been flying for just over 25 years now, in Australia. Nothing was pre-drilled on those kits. I didn’t experience any issues with the dimpling for 3/32 and 1/8 rivets, however the fuel tank skins and associated attaching flanges, had serious cracks in the dimples for the attaching screws. I filed the cracks out, many quite deeply. It would be interesting to see an engineers view, on the likely hood of crack propagation in later kits, as well as feedback from aircraft owners, who have many hours on their aircraft.
Thanks for posting this video. I can't imagine being in your shoes. I hope Vans understands the impact this type of viral issue will have on their business if they don't get out in front of it FAST. Greg's reply on VAF was excellent but I think there are a couple of things Vans needs to do NOW.
First, publish a list of the part numbers and manufacture dates of the parts known to be affected by this issue and update it daily. That will allow builders to see if this impacts them. It's possible the problem will end up affecting a small number of parts within a relatively narrow manufacture date range. If so, a large group of builders can sleep at night knowing their build is OK. I have a wing kit waiting to be built and I went out to my hangar yesterday and looked at most of the parts and documented the manufacture date of the parts as well as the general condition of the holes. Most of my parts look "OK"- especially those wrapped with the blue vinyl. But, I had a couple dozen laser cut parts manufactured in 2022 with no blue vinyl that don't look right. The holes are not smoothly concentric like the parts with punched holes.
The second thing I would do is come up with an easily understood process for builders to replace affected parts and clearly communicate that to ALL employees throughout the organization. TODAY! Based on Austin Manke's recent experience, Vans employees clearly have not been told how to respond to this.
I personally feel that any builder with affected parts should get replacement parts sent ASAP at no cost regardless of what the engineering test results are. And we shouldn't be subjected to a stringent verification process to prove our parts are affected. Make it easy. Trust your customers. I should be able to send an email saying I want the following parts replaced and if they are in stock, they should ship immediately. I also think these replacement parts should take priority over parts going into new kits that haven't shipped yet (and I'm waiting for my empennage kit to ship so I can start my RV-14A build).
After telling builders for 50 years that cracks in dimples are to be avoided at all costs and after builders have spent hundreds of hours deburring holes to avoid these cracks, there is no way Vans can convince us now that some cracks are acceptable. Vans reputation as a kit manufacturer is on the line and how they choose to address this problem will affect their business for years (decades?) down the road.
I really hope you get this resolved to your satisfaction soon and I'm really sorry you're having to deal with this. Thanks again for posting this video. It will help all those that come after you. Hang in there!
Fully concur. I’ve been very interested in their RV-15, but short of a dramatic and fast response from Vans to help you and other builders (Greg’s response is a start, and I appreciate their engineering rigor, but when? Next week? Next year?) I believe I will stick with my trusty C182. Please keep us posted with details about their response and how long it took them to provide corrected materials to you.
I've waited a month to comment... You make me feel lucky that I haven't started my 14 fuselage yet. All the ribs and bulkheads are laser cut. Some look great and others I will not put in the plane regardless of what Van's says.
The waiting to find out is driving me nuts but I'm lucky to not be tearing shit apart like you.
Thanks for sharing your pain.
Incorrect heat control during the laser cutting process. Depending on the aluminum alloy it might not be possible to prevent heat from altering the temper of the metal along the laser cut edges. Building a temperature controlled enclosure for the laser cutter and figuring out temperature ramp up/down and ideal enclosure temperature during cutting would be a long process of testing - especially if the manufacture of the aluminum sheet has no data on laser cutting followed by mechanically distorting (such as dimpling) the heat affected zone.
Perhaps blasting chilled air right at the point of the laser cutting could prevent this problem?
That's a problem with sheet steel with laser or plasma cutting. It can be almost completely mitigated with plasma cutting by using a water table so only the smallest part of the edge right next to the torch is affected.
I believe only a pilot hole should be cut with the laser then it should be drilled to size the rest of the way
it's not the size of the hole that is the problem, it's the fact that the laser cutting process alters the temper of the aluminum making it more brittle and prone to cracking
@@billbrissonif it was only a pilot hole, any material that was brittle would be drilled away when the right size hole was drilled.
@@LeifNelandDk except it's the whole part that is laser cut, not just the holes. Do you plan to file away the edges of the entire part?
Thank you for making this Ryan. Well said, and you have every right to be frustrated given how much time you invested into trying to work with these parts. I really hope they can get this worked out.
@5:40 "I don't think you'll have the finances to cover it all". He's a prophet!
Adding more rivets between the cracked ones?
Sounds like the laser cutters are hardening the aluminum and causing it to become brittle because of the excessive heat of the laser.
Laser heating should anneal the metal making it softer, not harder. It’s the reason you use rivets instead of welding. For steel welding the reduction in strength is not much which is why you can weld steel and net it’s a stronger joint than bolting. But AL undergoes like factor of 2 reduction of strength. The AL T6 temper goes to like T3 or less. And unfortunately you can’t just do a reheat treatment, because the whole piece needs to undergo the treatment. It could be that the region around the hole has lost its temper and maybe that lack of strength is what is cracking. Need a real metallurgist (which I am not) to tell what is going on here, but overtly it does not sound correct that temper loss (softening) would cause cracks by itself.
We are farther along than you on this section. We (3 of us) just got wind of this issue over the weekend. We are going to go over this now with a fine tooth comb. Unfortunately not going to Oshkosh, but would like to be a fly on the wall at the Vans tent this year. They are going to take a beating…
people need to bring this up at Oshkosh to teh kit companies. ALL of them. Make sure they are all aware of this issue incase they were thinking of doing similar to Vans.
I hope Vans has a good E&O policy - this will cost a fortune to fix. They will be lucky to stay in business.
chapter 11 incoming
@gregorywootton3870 and you nailed it 😂
Building can be frustrating. Most of the time, it's my fault. This time, it wasn't. Doesn't really change anything though. There will be a fix, project will move forward. It will take longer and cost more -- just like everything else in aviation.
So holes were slightly undersized and cracked when dimpled? I drilled , deburred ,dimpled all 30,000 plus rivets on my 2000 RV-6 and did not have any holes crack from dimpling. Bummer is a understatement for your problem.
You could start at the beginning by saying what model and serial this is.
I haven't done the inventory on my fuselage kit yet. Man, i'm not looking forward to this either. I already know Im going to be in the same boat.
I sure hope Van's makes this right with everyone. Luckily for me is I haven't ran into it YET! 😮
They have a solid plan but it's definitely going to take some time to ramp it up
Thanks for posting this video. Extremely helpful to others who are waiting for parts.
Wonder what I should expect with my QB fuselage coming in mid August. Any suggestions?
I think they are going to be looking a lot more closely at the QB stuff currently in stock before it goes out the door so you'll likely be just fine.
😬😬😬 I agree they need to get ahead of this ALOT faster then they have….i feel for ya man!
Long ago, (1990) Fokker Aircraft in NL investigated lasercutting of parts, especially rivet holes. It looked very economic.
Sectioning the holes, and microscoping them, showed extensive heat affected zones around the holes. This was the method to ruin the tuned properties of the aluminium in a zone of say maximum 1 mm from the edge. So what, 1 mm would you say ?
Once a small fatique crack is there, is developed, the total fatigue life is used for 90% and 10% is left over. (Ask every fatique specialist over the world to confirm.)
The proper method is: drill pilot hole. drill to larger diameter with sharp dril. Debur. Ream if necessary. Place corrosion inhibiter. Place rivet.
Reaming is benificial. Very small cracks of 0,1 mm in the hole-edge by the drilling are removed and the fatigue life becomes still longer.
Sorry for the lecture, but it is for nothing.
This issue is going to be huge for Vans. There is no doubt that the laser process has essentially heat treated the aluminum if in fact, laser is the process being used. I canceled my order back in December 2021 simply based on shipping delays but I have to say I’m glad I did now. I certainly hope that you get your issue resolved and Vans is able to take care of all of this and remain strong. Strong.
Ding ding ding. We have a winner! Localized heat treatment of metal is what causes this.
Fast forward to October 2023 ... This issues HAS caused BIG issues for Van's Aircraft. They are now having serious cash flow problems trying to address this and may other internal issues. Hope this isn't the death of Van's, but it's certainly the biggest challenge and deepest s**t that the company has ever been in!
@@simonbaxter8001 early december 2023 and they've filed for chapter 11. I feel for all the people out there part way through their build who are going to get royally done over by this.
Heat treat after laser cut and before assembly?
Do you have a solution yet?
Van's future depends on solving this problem. They need to stop with the detailed emails and simply say we're going to STOP SHIPPING KITS UNTIL ALL EXISTING PARTS ARE REPLACED IN KITS SHIPPED IN THE LAST 18 MONTHS. I have tons of these parts in the wing kit but I have not yet started building the wing so at least I don't have to disassemble but they have a very small window to make this right.
This reminds me of a manufacturing/airworthiness fiasco on the Canadair Regional Jet when the maker of anti-ice leading edge piccolo tubes (made from very thin titanium sheet rolled and welded), an aerospace company in LA, bought an Electro Discharge Machining rig to make the little holes instead of normal drills. EDM melts the hole with a controlled arc. The notified the OEM of the process change, but there was no follow up. The tubes went into service and eventually started cracking at the holes and breaking up (titanium having so much spring-back when formed), leaving the wing without anti-ice protection outboard of the fracture, just random wing overheat warnings. Just dumb ass luck there wasn't an incident. Turns out the EDM process leaves a hole with a very rough burnt bore, a perfect crack propagator. An AD required replacement of tubes, and the company didn't want to scrap their automated EDM rig so it was agreed they'd make the hole by EDM undersize, then someone had to ream them to final size with a reamer after to provide a clean bore. Laser cut holes would have the same problem.
Heard from another channel that Vans is pulling all laser cut parts.
That is correct, it's in the details of the press release
Laser tempering and cracking of aluminum has been known in aviation for a long time. It’s a shame someone was able to sell them on that process. Anything you touch the edge with (file) will cause cracking like tempered glass. I’m curious of how far the heat affected area is from the edge or if any of the parts can be salvaged by drilling out the temper and using over sized rivets.
Remove the rivets and Tig weld the parts. Otherwise disassemble, and reassemble with glue. Rivets are 20th century.
@@Parkhill57I think the problem is that welding AL ruins the T6 temper. Like half the strength. Steel does not degrade like that from welding, so your suggestions would be fine for steel. What I don’t understand in all this is that if the holes are bad, then why not just don’t use them? Just drill your own holes the right way for rivets between the bad holes. Not ideal given one bought a kit to avoid that, but Ce la vie if it rescues the kit
Good news: You got me to subscribe to your channel.
Bad news: I am not as far along as you, but I have effected parts.
I hope Van's is considering the far-reaching effects of this. Not only could me and my family's safety be compromised, but in the aviation world, this type of situation will follow your aircraft for it's life. In the future, unless you have 100% documentation from the factory that you had ZERO effected parts, the ability to sell your aircraft, or get a fair price, will also be compromised. This is regardless if they have inspected parts or Quick-builds when they went out the door.
Are bad LCparts only on rv12's?
As far as I know, the 12 parts are fine, but you should review the documents vans released for the 12 if you want specifics there.
I hear you my man I’m involved with this on my 10:-(
I wanted to ask you were you parts cracking in the red or yellow color on the list vans released for your 14??? I’m just curious because you said all those seat ribs etc are all cracking to some degree????
I’m sure my 10 is similar
I had some cracks on red and yellow parts, the thumbnail for this video with the cracks is actually a red-tier part. Seat ribs are blue of course, it's just the point in the build where I really recognized there was a problem.
@@RyanE67 oh okay just wanted to make sure the cracking parts were NOT blue or green ones. I am building a 10 and I have to replace ribs in my nearly complete wings. I did not start my fuse yet until they send me replacement parts
@@jerseypilot83 plenty of blue parts cracked too, then i followed the guidance (at the time) to file the cracks out... which took too many holes out of spec.. and so I'm subsequently asking for no-cost replacement since all I did was follow their guidance.
@@RyanE67 I can’t believe you said the blue parts are cracking, too… but Vans says it’s okay …. Complete BS! I really hope they will send out free replacements because they really messed up. All the blue and green parts I guess are good to go even with crack they said to you too????
I was playing around with first 2 steps of fuselage today and I didn’t prime but dimpled and debuted and riveted to test and see if it would crack and it DID NOT! I guess that is good but I’m still going to use the punched parts. I have no choice but to wait. They say we can use blue and green but that’s crazy…. I say it’s cutting corners extremely!
Never use laser cut anything in an airplane, use water jet only...
steel parts....
I understand for Aluminum, but not all materials are equally affected by a laser.
Second video I see on this subject. Not clear, is it the metal itself or the laser cut process or both?
My heart breaks watching you having to drill out all of those rivets. That is an amazing amount of work, time, expense and frustration. It sure makes Vans look bad.
Ouch!!! Obviously a manufacturing or material problem!! These problems will add thousands of hrs to the build. Uhh I never commited but I wanted to build a Mustang ll.
We would always "Pin Coin" the holes prior to dimpling and riveting.
Van's just posted a video regarding their financial situation.. looks pretty grim
Yeah I just hope that this video didn't make their situation any worse😔
@@RyanE67I have a friend that ordered a kit at Oshkosh and its filled with laser cut parts
this is a huge $hitstorm for Van's, and it is going to be a huge financial burden to them, but the one thing Van's has going for them is their customers truly love their product!
The resale value of aircraft built with laser cut kits is going to be seriously affected by this, for those building now, be sure to extensively document (take literally thousands of pics) your efforts to identify, and replace affected structures to be able to prove they are built right when it's time to sell.
Filing is not the answer. I'm a retired A & P mechanic, 50 + years experience. Military and civil, large and small aircraft. Your Filing puts small scratches thru the hole and promotes the cracking. Hot coin dimpleing is possibly an answer along with drilling and or reaming.
I've done a lot of hot dimpleing in the military and it's a tricky process.
Their engineers will have to come up with an approved fix.
You would be better off to wait for one , otherwise you might cause even more problems.
Not a good place to be in. I feel bad for you guys that bought that kit.
Maybe get together with other kit owners and start a lawsuit.
Lawsuit no... Everything else is spot on. Thanks for your service!
Agree. On race cars from the 1960's, they learned that scratches of any size in aluminum panels exposed to vibration could start cracking.
Its not just the rv7 kits.
Improper debur will cause cracking. I know people run files on the holes. Not the same as a countersink debur. Not say 100% thats the issue but not uncommon. I'm an A&P with extensive sheetmetal experience and have helped build several RV. There product has gone down hill
Ya. Laser cutting holes my affect the heat treatment of the aluminum and make it brittle.
@@Rev17thru22 And a laser cut hole is jagged. Like really jagged compared to any machining process. Definitely a starting point for cracks.
@@GeneralChangFromDanang scary shi .
Hot dimples? Filing? Why not debuting tool, a whole lot faster. Filing makes micro cracks. You should see all the back drilling needed to replace thin sheet metal parts on the U-2. We are not allowed to laser ablate thin skins because of the damage done by the lasers.
Yeah the deburring tool creates a countersink or knife edge, which takes the hole way too far out of spec
The laser cut hole already formed micro cracks. I think filing is the least of his worries. Vans has a lot to answer for here.
What a nightmare- there goes my dream of building a 7A
What a blessing, you can build something good instead 👍
The dimpling process should not require working on the holes with a file. Cracked dimples indicate the material is not the correct material, not in the correct condition to be dimpled, or the wrong dimpling process has been called out. Don't assume any kit manufacturer knows how to build airplanes. One popular 4 place composite manufacturer in the southeast used an air conditioning duct sheet metal brake to form a flight control bracket out 0.120 6061, no bend radius, when confronted by an A/P and an engineer they refused to accept that they were doing something wrong.
Oof, yeah that's rough
The end of another great company.
Whoa!? Seems that the current processes that make the most accuracy cause some heretofore unforeseen new problems. It will be either the defining moment of Van’s commitment to the future or their quick downfall.
What's the follow up to this? Is Vans standing by their product and sorting you and all the other builders out with new parts? I know they found the problem with the laser cutting method at the subcontractor, and have fixed the issue ongoing. It's a real FUBAR but Vans is surely a good upstanding bunch and will make it "right" for the builders.
I have a follow up video, but there's been more since then.. they seem to be standing by their builders so far...
makes sense the lazer cutting makes the aluminum harder. also if there lazer cutting the holes thats no good either.
The phrase Laser cut parts has me baffled. Is the phase "CNC" punched parts being called Laser Cut components.
No. Both are cnc process, one uses a laser to pierce the part, the punch uses a die set to pierce the material
As much as laser cutting is seen as the "superior process" a cnc punch is a far better choice for doing this kind of stuff when manufacturing.
But slower.... hence lasers.
Yup, But if you have to remake the part to not crack it is not gonna be much faster than doing it with a cnc punch once. @@kraftwurx_Aviation
Laser cutting a heat treated material like 2024T3 is a stupid decision. Would you oxy cut it?
work hardening through laser cutting is not some new thing, I cant believe they did not do enough testing. I think it is fine making radio flyers but not suitable for this kind of airplane construction.
YES - "new" parts all around! Don't trust your life on anything less...
They need to take the millions of $ in profit, and put it back into the company. It's no longer profit, it is insurance. If they don't, they might as well liquidate.
They are using cheep aluminum, i you can Lazer cut aluminum and still stretch it, they need to compensate with a different grade and harness so that the temper is a proper grade after heat
I think you may be incorrect, the aluminum used is high quality (aircraft grade) and not intended to be heated as this affects its strength and becomes more brittle (thus cracking). If they use a grade of aluminum that can still flex after heating then its overall strength is not as strong and not to the standards for these aircraft........That is how it was explained to me so I hope that makes sense.........and of course, I could wrong as well, but makes sense to me.
you can....if you are careful..... back drill the new parts that you are replacing to the parts that are not affected.
Yeah, there will be a bit of that.. careful re-matching some holes
The only solution that will allow Vans to maintain their reputation is a quick build portion or monetary compensation for builders who lost labor due to Vans error. I’m a HUGE supporter of Vans but still hold them to a standard when conduction business. When CEOs, etc, are brought in things like this happens.
Are these airplanes going to be insurable if they are built from these kits, even if you replace the parts?
I'm sure it won't come to that.. for a vast majority of the parts, any issue should be noticed on preflight or if anything during annual condition inspection before they become actual problems or safety hazards.
Uh . . Oh. Foam & Fiberglass. LOL start over.
Root Cause ?
Laser cut was supposed to be cheaper than CNC. Obviously their testing QC program was defective. Rivets are so 20th century. Ford puts their aluminum together with glue, Northrop Grumman uses glue. Rivets belong on radial engine aircraft.
I recently reached out to Vans because I want to buy a kit. They could not (or perhaps are unwilling) to promise a kit with no laser cut parts. Hard pass for me and builders with even the slightest chance of having laser cut parts will have resale challenges IMO.
It’s over ! Van’s is destroyed, it is a lawyer’s dream but there are not enough assets to even begin to make this right
1800+ kits affected, they are cooked. I feel so sorry for the builders
We went to Van's years ago and all sheet metal was punched/bent in house on very,very expensive CNC punch machines - but they literally printed money for Van's.
I guess things changed and Van's decided to outsource the core of their business for money reasons. This is what happens, a real shame.
I don't believe it was money issues that convinced them to outsource, it was demand. They couldn't keep up with orders and thought they had a contractor that could help in the short term until they could get more machines set up in their facility and increase supply. Unfortunately it didn't work as planned...
I'd like to see a CNC machine "literally" print money.
@@MN-RV Exactly!
so sorry to see this. I loved Vans - RVs and home building. but I think you guys are optimistic on this deal. I cannot see how Vans can attract anyone with rescue cash simply because of the huge liability they just incurred with all the builds showing cracking. There will undoubtedly be lawsuits anytime an RV crashes - or even gets grounded, or cant get an airworthiness certificate.
. I can't see how any insurance company will touch this - and i am thinking the only logical conclusion here is Vans declaring bankruptcy - and the company closing down. I cant imagine Van G putting himself in legal and financial ruin. I don't think he has any other logical solution.
,
I hope I'm wrong - good luck to all of you dealing with this horrific issue.
Vans chapter 11... inferior quality parts...Jim Bede again....this isn't over
It ended up putting them out of business. Now everyone is screwed. Too bad they just didn't drill the holes instead of taking the easy way out and laser drilling them.
So glad I didn't build an RV-7 for my first project. Went with something else to start (and it's going well).
Sounds like a first world problem…”I don’t want to rant”…but I’m going to rant
You can either wait for parts or get new ones fabricated yourself.
This is 100% vans fault. Don't they do research and development? Test parts before producing and selling them? They have since filed Bankruptcy. Wonder if they made good to the people who spent savings on a kit.
Some people are starting to get replacement parts.. I am still waiting.
I predict bankruptcy in coming, then a sale of the company, perhaps to Cessna.
"For education and recreation".
We definitely got schooled.
@@robertkunselman650Sad but funny!
and re-creation......
its hard enough to build a plane without problems. this can ruin your day. week year i am afraid to say any more
As a rusty pilot and not a aircraft builder I cannot see the cracks, the video needs closer images so we can all witness. We don’t disbelieve just can’t see. They made an error, send new parts. Then tell us who the outside manufacturer is?
Even if they send you another aircraft you still have massive labor loss.
It's a big loss but we're all wrapped up in the loss together at this point..
Vans is having cash flow problems? Imagine that. Outsourcing manufacturing and getting defective holes and corrosion on quick build kits due to defective primer. I really feel for all of the people that are probably going to lose money due to this. I was thinking of buying one. Definitely not now.
The laser must be giving it a heat treatment and making it brittle around the hole. sry those are scrap and Vans could go bankrupt over this.
or the source stock is not really 6061 ? if they made hundreds of them so far with no problems, then something changed, they need to find it. asap.
That’s what I was wondering about too?
@@orbitalair2103Sheet metal comes from China...continuous quality testing of batches were not in place probably...
Simple drill next size and install nas1097 before riveting. Very important small bucking at minimum of the standard. Lite Deburing before dampling .
Oshkosh is coming. Vans better answer or people won't be buying more kits.
I feel sorry for you.
No one in this great aircraft kit building operation predicted a change in the metallurgy of 2024 aluminum when exposed to laser cutting??! For shame.
Sorry feelings for all involved, hope this KOCK-UP wont kill a great Oregon company.... :(
too much outsourcing at Vans, suppliers are looking for ways to improve profitability on a fixed price contract.
And then a few days ago the owner released a video saying they were going to stop replacing parts for now and were raising kit prices.
RIP Van's. You had a good run.
welp, i wont ever try this companies stuff, i dont care about support after the problem, i care about product quality from the start. hard pass
cracked dimples = recipe for disaster
Is this how the kit is delivered? (Note to myself: never buy a kit from this company)
Vans aircraft totally screwed all vans builders... chapter 11, inferior overseas parts.. seriously? WTF..
And how many are flying with inferior parts..wanna spend 250M for a possible inferior airplan
. Vans has no respect from me. Their grave yard is big enough already.
Well there goes the price of those planes. 50% off like now. Unacceptable and should immediately drop price on them.
Filing the holes? I work for an aircraft company and we never file any fastener holes. You are making stress risers with your file, regardless of the heat treat on the metal. I would not keep this video up if you ever plan to sell your airplane. I doubt you could find an AC manual telling you to file the holes---YIKES!!!!
yet that was the guidance provided by the kit manufacturer..
People are going to die in those planes.