Here’s how I view it. I’ve been playing fps games since I was about 6 years old (I’m 23 now) starting with Halo CE and Cod Finest Hour. Obviously I would’ve been playing those games on roller, but eventually I switched to PC full time when Black Ops Cold War came out and there for switched to MnK. Part of this was due to the fact I’d have to get comfortable with MnK anyways to be able to play my favorite game Escape from Tarkov (which I eventually got my way to around 8k hours on). Since then I’ve barely touched roller at all aside from when I hop on my PS4/ps5 to play sports games. I made the switch to MnK purely out of necessity, however I eventually realized that when running it, fps games felt much more satisfying to play. Which input is better depends on the situation as both have their advantages over the other. These days there’s times playin apex that I certainly wish I was running roller in certain situations such as when I’m in an up close 1v1 and I lose cuz I couldn’t quite track my opponent well enough, or maybe I have a day where my performance anxiety is getting the better of me and I just feel uncomfortably or jittery and my gameplay is just off. However when I’m having a normal day where I feel like I’m playing like myself, MnK feels more satisfying for me cuz I know that me playing well is all due to my raw skill and not necessarily relying on something like aim assist to help. And that’s not a knock on aim assist or roller players, obviously it’s kinda needed for the input to really even be viable, although AA in apex imo is a little too strong at times. This debate will likely never end, it’s this generations’ version of the console wars. Maybe there actually is an answer as to which is better, but ultimately I say play whichever one you enjoy more, not necessarily whichever one is better.
i always have too much shit on my desk that blocks my keyboard so i just opt for a roller nowadays lmao. (prior to this i had 1000 hours on Mnk) also i found u don't really need to warm up nearly as long or try as hard on roller
In Apex Legends, as it currently stands, controller is objectively better. Only the top ~4% of MnK players have aim equal to or better than the average controller player. Controller on average is ~10% more accurate, has higher KD, and more kills than MnK. Without AA, MnK is clearly better, but the AA implementation is simply way overtuned in Apex, and it's frankly just kinda wild that Respawn has not done anything to address it after all this time, whether that is separate lobbies, adjusting the AA values, or something else.
2024 - still waiting for Aim Assist nerf At this point controller is overused by 70% of Apex community and it doesnt matter if u are bad or good. Roller will take u about 1 month to fully understand and learn, unlike MnK. The problem is that Apex fights are happeing mostly on close range, where AA has advantage over MnK players. Been able to move your thumb a little and nearly 1 clip your enemy is huge compare to MnK tracking. In the end it doesnt matter how much hours do you put into MnK when u get 1 clipped by gold player while he is standing still looting your death box. Overall, nice video man!
You got it, AA "nerf" is here. Not that it changes anything since they didn't address rotational AA whatsoever so it still reacts FOR YOU but hey : "iT puLlS SliGhTly LeSs" as most described it. So, yeah, Respawn did it just so they can say they did it. Not that we can expect more from them considering the DEVs themselves are controller Andy's in the rare occasions they play their own game. Just another swap in the face.
what is your dpi for m&k and in game sens, also what are your controller settings (such as linear) and what is your controllers button layout. don't really know what your playing on
@@vc933it depends on what you are trying to do. If you are a zone team just sniping it’s better to be mnk, if you are a massively aggressive edge team then you want controller. But at the same time all of those players are the best in the world at their respected inputs
There is a reason why pros are switching to controller like hal, lou and Reptar amazing mnk players AA just gives you that edge that pros are always looking for. The pro scene is completely dominated by controller. Genburten is who is a god on controller has literally made fun of casual controller players he too agrees that AA is OP. On a casual standpoint controller is designed to make a game easier for the average player which is a good thing it just might be over tuned a little bit.
As a person who has played extensively on both inputs, it’s honestly personal preference. Mnk has far better tracking ability at range and imo also better in super close range (anything under 5 metres) while roller is by far superior in that 10-35ish metre range. Also the skill gap average players on both input is not too far. The average mnk player sucks and the average roller player is mid, but the top players on both input are around the same. Also I think if both inputs switch to the other, the mnk switching to roller does better than roller switching to mnk.
And as well mnk gives way better reaction speed and movement abilities imo overall mnk is better but controller is still good too That’s one thing I honestly think respawn balanced really well
Roller has a higher skill floor but way lower skill ceiling. And tbh skill in fps is all about reaction time. Thats why mnk is better. If you want to turn to a certain point you can always make the exact same movement and end in the same place but if you did that on roller youd almost always will over/under shoot simply due to the thumbstick needing to be perfectly center till it stops moving. Imagine if on mnk you had to cross a certain spot before your mouse picked up the movement. Imagine just how much harder it would be to aim like that.
Ehm...AA reacts for you so, following your logic - controller is better. "Skill ceiling" doesn't matter if not a single player has reached that ceiling. Zero is one of the handful who can hold his ground in ALGS and he's a huge outlier spending more hours a day training his aim than playing the actual game so that must be fun, right? Now imagine the average MnK player. All while controller players hop right in-game or "warm up" for 5min in firing range and 1 clip left and right. Majority don't even bother learning any recoil control, whats the point? Just shove everything close and let AA do its magic, only nerds shoot past 30 meters - waste of resources.
The fact that that tourny is supposedly getting people to wonder about the inputs again is hilarious given that the entire meta of the game right now is specifically using Bang smoke and other visual blockers to weaken/disable controller aim assist while using scan legends maintain visibility and level the playing field again. One input transcended the overarching aim/movement debate and actually forced in-game team compositional changes in order to deal with it. I think it's pretty clear which one is still the superior input when we're not assuming that everyone you're up against is going to be specifically building their character choice/team comp around neutralizing the benefits of it. It's a done and dead issue, controller is the better input purely because aim assist is so unapologetically overpowered and most combat is in such close quarters that it makes all the benefits of kb&m completely irrelevant. You get into some gray areas when you get into long distance stuff but even then controller still gets extra bullet magnetism that neutralizes a lot of the impact of recoil that kb&m users would suffer, so it's still a tossup unless you're a pro player jitter aiming and/or perfect recoil compensating while tracking at 100m or whatever.
so people say aim assist is over powered and mnk movement is really good so does anyone play mixed input? aim with a controller move with a keyboard? i feel like i have heard of people doing something like that in a game but i don't think it was a first person shooter.
for ur avg player controller is by far in a way better. pc u actually have to aim train learn to arm aim track and do fancy movement. controller u hold lt and rt and beam and ull shit on most low lvl players which most avg players are
One thing I do so that I can aim while moving on controller is have crouch on RB and jump on LB and also have hold to crouch. This allows me to do movement while aiming as well as things like b-hopping and super-gliding. I think that MnK does have that higher skill ceiling which makes it better at higher elos, but roller is better at lower elos due to its lower skill floor.
As a fairly long-time csgo player, Apex is the most uncomfortable game for me. I instinctually want to stand still and counterstrafe before shooting which are both obviously stupid in Apex. But also, with the huge time to kill, tracking a fast-moving target is the most important skill rather than first-bullet accuracy or even spray control. Btw, the claw roller grip is the dumbest thing I've ever seen in my life. There's no way someone out there can't design a better controller for that style of play. The first time I saw it, I knew I was never going to try roller in Apex.
Use motion aiming (aka gyro aiming). Having the stick for general movement of the camera, while still being able to look around when your thumb is somewhere else, can be a huge game changer, and that's before the astronomical improvement in aiming that you get by not being limited by a clunky little stick. There are also controllers with "paddles", 2-4 extra buttons in the back. Unfortunately, most "pro" controllers that come with paddles don't feature a gyroscope, so you're stuck with horrible aim that requires aim assist to be competitive. I refer you to the video "Motion Control and the Rejection of Progress" by Nerrel. Gyro aim is such a boon to controllers, and the fact that Xbox, still considered "THE" shooter controller somehow, is the only big name controller out there that doesn't even have a gyroscope, is honestly a crime. If you've read this far, I'd say grab a PS4 or Switch Pro controller, make yourself a Steam input config that works for you, and try it for a bit... unfortunately, figuring all of that out can take a WHILE, so it's hard to actually recommend to someone just for "messing around a little". You could download a community config I suppose...
In terms of competitiveness as someone whose played on both mnk is objectively better and you’re legitimately delusional if you think otherwise lmao But it’s one of the few games where it’s very close and you can go pro on controller so the fact you can even have that debate shows how well respawn balanced them
It's literally the opposite and any pro who's touched a controller has said so. Controller is so insanely overpowered because of how overtuned aim assist is in Apex that it not only forcefully converted most of the pro roster off their native input but also is now going so far as forcing the team comp meta to be built around it as well using Bang smokes and Caustic gas to disable it and scans legends to maintain visibility. Obviously there are niche scenarios where kb&m will be better like for movement and at extreme range where aim assist no longer registers but the overwhelming power of aim assist in the majority of common scenarios in Apex completely nullifies them on both a casual and competitive level.
Honestly I've been playing too much time playing this game and watching the kill cam in solos be controller players 1 clipping me over and over has finally been a wakeup that I need to stop playing. I'm not good enough to justify spending hours and hours to try to stay on par with a robot. Regardless of what is better or not, I just don't have fun in this game and at the end of the day that's all the matters
Also your final conclusion just isn't a good point, if you are wrong about controller being OP. If controller is OP that means the people at my rank playing controller are likely dumber than me at positioning, awareness, communication, team play etc etc. And so in that aspect I can outplay them. Sure. But that means I have to go out of my way to avoid straight up fights because I know I will lose them, aka the most fun part of the game. And I do have to do that. So I have to play the game differently (and imo a less fun way) to stay on the same level. Yes, obviously I suck at the game and any pro MnK player would wipe my lobby, but that isn't the point. Any pro player playing solo ash would also wipe a lobby full of the most OP version of horizon, does that mean horizon doesn't need nerfed because you still could have killed them? Just a bad argument
It's not the input which defines your accuracy it's the insane randomiser Apex is, who decides if you're going to land your shots or not. Low tick servers, uneven packet loss, ping difference and so much other things. It could possibly even be some algorithm. Because your performance in TDM may drastically differ from that in BR. Think about it, EOMM is more real than ever before.
Trying both things out, starting on controller and moving onto MnK, I’d say it depends on range and playstyle. Do you plan to be in people’s faces all day long? Use a controller so you have aim assist helping you. Do you plan to poke a bit and track more from range? Then use a mouse and keyboard. Personally I use mouse and keyboard more since I prefer being able to loot bodies fast and controlling recoils at any range is easier for me.
Controller is the black horse of inputs. They’ll bait you in missing 3 mags at distance then one clip you while you’re super gliding when you decide to push them.
no way this guy just tricked me into watching him ACTUALLY play the game for 18 mins
Here’s how I view it. I’ve been playing fps games since I was about 6 years old (I’m 23 now) starting with Halo CE and Cod Finest Hour. Obviously I would’ve been playing those games on roller, but eventually I switched to PC full time when Black Ops Cold War came out and there for switched to MnK. Part of this was due to the fact I’d have to get comfortable with MnK anyways to be able to play my favorite game Escape from Tarkov (which I eventually got my way to around 8k hours on). Since then I’ve barely touched roller at all aside from when I hop on my PS4/ps5 to play sports games.
I made the switch to MnK purely out of necessity, however I eventually realized that when running it, fps games felt much more satisfying to play. Which input is better depends on the situation as both have their advantages over the other. These days there’s times playin apex that I certainly wish I was running roller in certain situations such as when I’m in an up close 1v1 and I lose cuz I couldn’t quite track my opponent well enough, or maybe I have a day where my performance anxiety is getting the better of me and I just feel uncomfortably or jittery and my gameplay is just off. However when I’m having a normal day where I feel like I’m playing like myself, MnK feels more satisfying for me cuz I know that me playing well is all due to my raw skill and not necessarily relying on something like aim assist to help. And that’s not a knock on aim assist or roller players, obviously it’s kinda needed for the input to really even be viable, although AA in apex imo is a little too strong at times.
This debate will likely never end, it’s this generations’ version of the console wars. Maybe there actually is an answer as to which is better, but ultimately I say play whichever one you enjoy more, not necessarily whichever one is better.
Roller downplaying takes many forms.
But I agree you should pick based on enjoyment.
i always have too much shit on my desk that blocks my keyboard so i just opt for a roller nowadays lmao. (prior to this i had 1000 hours on Mnk) also i found u don't really need to warm up nearly as long or try as hard on roller
In Apex Legends, as it currently stands, controller is objectively better. Only the top ~4% of MnK players have aim equal to or better than the average controller player. Controller on average is ~10% more accurate, has higher KD, and more kills than MnK. Without AA, MnK is clearly better, but the AA implementation is simply way overtuned in Apex, and it's frankly just kinda wild that Respawn has not done anything to address it after all this time, whether that is separate lobbies, adjusting the AA values, or something else.
2024 - still waiting for Aim Assist nerf
At this point controller is overused by 70% of Apex community and it doesnt matter if u are bad or good. Roller will take u about 1 month to fully understand and learn, unlike MnK. The problem is that Apex fights are happeing mostly on close range, where AA has advantage over MnK players. Been able to move your thumb a little and nearly 1 clip your enemy is huge compare to MnK tracking. In the end it doesnt matter how much hours do you put into MnK when u get 1 clipped by gold player while he is standing still looting your death box.
Overall, nice video man!
You got it, AA "nerf" is here. Not that it changes anything since they didn't address rotational AA whatsoever so it still reacts FOR YOU but hey : "iT puLlS SliGhTly LeSs" as most described it. So, yeah, Respawn did it just so they can say they did it. Not that we can expect more from them considering the DEVs themselves are controller Andy's in the rare occasions they play their own game. Just another swap in the face.
what is your dpi for m&k and in game sens, also what are your controller settings (such as linear) and what is your controllers button layout. don't really know what your playing on
love you bro, imo roller is the better imput at masters and up. im muli pred mnk and every player is roller
that does not make it better
@@docgraal485 when most high level players use the same input there’s a reason, controller is the better input for comp
@@vc933it depends on what you are trying to do. If you are a zone team just sniping it’s better to be mnk, if you are a massively aggressive edge team then you want controller. But at the same time all of those players are the best in the world at their respected inputs
There is a reason why pros are switching to controller like hal, lou and Reptar amazing mnk players AA just gives you that edge that pros are always looking for. The pro scene is completely dominated by controller. Genburten is who is a god on controller has literally made fun of casual controller players he too agrees that AA is OP. On a casual standpoint controller is designed to make a game easier for the average player which is a good thing it just might be over tuned a little bit.
As a person who has played extensively on both inputs, it’s honestly personal preference. Mnk has far better tracking ability at range and imo also better in super close range (anything under 5 metres) while roller is by far superior in that 10-35ish metre range. Also the skill gap average players on both input is not too far. The average mnk player sucks and the average roller player is mid, but the top players on both input are around the same. Also I think if both inputs switch to the other, the mnk switching to roller does better than roller switching to mnk.
And as well mnk gives way better reaction speed and movement abilities imo overall mnk is better but controller is still good too
That’s one thing I honestly think respawn balanced really well
Hell yeah Moore dropped!!!
Moore oh what
Roller has a higher skill floor but way lower skill ceiling.
And tbh skill in fps is all about reaction time. Thats why mnk is better. If you want to turn to a certain point you can always make the exact same movement and end in the same place but if you did that on roller youd almost always will over/under shoot simply due to the thumbstick needing to be perfectly center till it stops moving.
Imagine if on mnk you had to cross a certain spot before your mouse picked up the movement. Imagine just how much harder it would be to aim like that.
Ehm...AA reacts for you so, following your logic - controller is better. "Skill ceiling" doesn't matter if not a single player has reached that ceiling. Zero is one of the handful who can hold his ground in ALGS and he's a huge outlier spending more hours a day training his aim than playing the actual game so that must be fun, right? Now imagine the average MnK player. All while controller players hop right in-game or "warm up" for 5min in firing range and 1 clip left and right. Majority don't even bother learning any recoil control, whats the point? Just shove everything close and let AA do its magic, only nerds shoot past 30 meters - waste of resources.
The fact that that tourny is supposedly getting people to wonder about the inputs again is hilarious given that the entire meta of the game right now is specifically using Bang smoke and other visual blockers to weaken/disable controller aim assist while using scan legends maintain visibility and level the playing field again. One input transcended the overarching aim/movement debate and actually forced in-game team compositional changes in order to deal with it. I think it's pretty clear which one is still the superior input when we're not assuming that everyone you're up against is going to be specifically building their character choice/team comp around neutralizing the benefits of it.
It's a done and dead issue, controller is the better input purely because aim assist is so unapologetically overpowered and most combat is in such close quarters that it makes all the benefits of kb&m completely irrelevant. You get into some gray areas when you get into long distance stuff but even then controller still gets extra bullet magnetism that neutralizes a lot of the impact of recoil that kb&m users would suffer, so it's still a tossup unless you're a pro player jitter aiming and/or perfect recoil compensating while tracking at 100m or whatever.
I play MnK but with a thumb joystick for movement. Because WASD is the equivalant of using the Dpad on controller imo
so people say aim assist is over powered and mnk movement is really good so does anyone play mixed input? aim with a controller move with a keyboard? i feel like i have heard of people doing something like that in a game but i don't think it was a first person shooter.
for ur avg player controller is by far in a way better. pc u actually have to aim train learn to arm aim track and do fancy movement. controller u hold lt and rt and beam and ull shit on most low lvl players which most avg players are
One thing I do so that I can aim while moving on controller is have crouch on RB and jump on LB and also have hold to crouch. This allows me to do movement while aiming as well as things like b-hopping and super-gliding. I think that MnK does have that higher skill ceiling which makes it better at higher elos, but roller is better at lower elos due to its lower skill floor.
Loving the content lately man!!! Keep it up 💪
As a fairly long-time csgo player, Apex is the most uncomfortable game for me. I instinctually want to stand still and counterstrafe before shooting which are both obviously stupid in Apex. But also, with the huge time to kill, tracking a fast-moving target is the most important skill rather than first-bullet accuracy or even spray control.
Btw, the claw roller grip is the dumbest thing I've ever seen in my life. There's no way someone out there can't design a better controller for that style of play. The first time I saw it, I knew I was never going to try roller in Apex.
Use motion aiming (aka gyro aiming).
Having the stick for general movement of the camera, while still being able to look around when your thumb is somewhere else, can be a huge game changer, and that's before the astronomical improvement in aiming that you get by not being limited by a clunky little stick. There are also controllers with "paddles", 2-4 extra buttons in the back. Unfortunately, most "pro" controllers that come with paddles don't feature a gyroscope, so you're stuck with horrible aim that requires aim assist to be competitive.
I refer you to the video "Motion Control and the Rejection of Progress" by Nerrel.
Gyro aim is such a boon to controllers, and the fact that Xbox, still considered "THE" shooter controller somehow, is the only big name controller out there that doesn't even have a gyroscope, is honestly a crime.
If you've read this far, I'd say grab a PS4 or Switch Pro controller, make yourself a Steam input config that works for you, and try it for a bit... unfortunately, figuring all of that out can take a WHILE, so it's hard to actually recommend to someone just for "messing around a little". You could download a community config I suppose...
In terms of competitiveness as someone whose played on both mnk is objectively better and you’re legitimately delusional if you think otherwise lmao
But it’s one of the few games where it’s very close and you can go pro on controller so the fact you can even have that debate shows how well respawn balanced them
It's literally the opposite and any pro who's touched a controller has said so. Controller is so insanely overpowered because of how overtuned aim assist is in Apex that it not only forcefully converted most of the pro roster off their native input but also is now going so far as forcing the team comp meta to be built around it as well using Bang smokes and Caustic gas to disable it and scans legends to maintain visibility.
Obviously there are niche scenarios where kb&m will be better like for movement and at extreme range where aim assist no longer registers but the overwhelming power of aim assist in the majority of common scenarios in Apex completely nullifies them on both a casual and competitive level.
grinnddd, thhats tha way
Honestly I've been playing too much time playing this game and watching the kill cam in solos be controller players 1 clipping me over and over has finally been a wakeup that I need to stop playing. I'm not good enough to justify spending hours and hours to try to stay on par with a robot. Regardless of what is better or not, I just don't have fun in this game and at the end of the day that's all the matters
Also your final conclusion just isn't a good point, if you are wrong about controller being OP. If controller is OP that means the people at my rank playing controller are likely dumber than me at positioning, awareness, communication, team play etc etc. And so in that aspect I can outplay them. Sure. But that means I have to go out of my way to avoid straight up fights because I know I will lose them, aka the most fun part of the game. And I do have to do that. So I have to play the game differently (and imo a less fun way) to stay on the same level.
Yes, obviously I suck at the game and any pro MnK player would wipe my lobby, but that isn't the point. Any pro player playing solo ash would also wipe a lobby full of the most OP version of horizon, does that mean horizon doesn't need nerfed because you still could have killed them? Just a bad argument
Your whole comment was a waste of time and isn't a good point. If you were good at the game, other people's inputs shouldn't matter to you.
It's not the input which defines your accuracy it's the insane randomiser Apex is, who decides if you're going to land your shots or not. Low tick servers, uneven packet loss, ping difference and so much other things. It could possibly even be some algorithm. Because your performance in TDM may drastically differ from that in BR. Think about it, EOMM is more real than ever before.
Trying both things out, starting on controller and moving onto MnK, I’d say it depends on range and playstyle. Do you plan to be in people’s faces all day long? Use a controller so you have aim assist helping you. Do you plan to poke a bit and track more from range? Then use a mouse and keyboard. Personally I use mouse and keyboard more since I prefer being able to loot bodies fast and controlling recoils at any range is easier for me.
Lets gooo moore gameplay video?
OMEGA STRIKERS BGM
Holy shit mooreover using Omega Strikers music BASED
Controller is the black horse of inputs. They’ll bait you in missing 3 mags at distance then one clip you while you’re super gliding when you decide to push them.
great video. I will die before this debate is over.
0 views in 26s? Fell off
you’re irrelevant kid so shut it
We need input based lobbies. Mnk shouldn't be forced to play against 40-60% of a soft lock aimbot.