Real World Rules - Runners Passing Precedes Grand Slam Abandonment at Cumberland-TMU College Game
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- Опубліковано 7 жов 2024
- Shortly after publishing our last Teachable Moment about runners passing, a collegiate baseball game featured a similar, yet slightly different, passing play, giving rise to the notion that what we teach actually does happen in real life. Article: www.closecalls...
See the aforementioned article for rules, interpretations, and citations.
During February 11, 2021's Cumberland University vs TMU baseball game, TMU batter Ethan Roberts hit a home run with the bases loaded and two out in the sixth inning. However, instead of a grand slam, a base-running gaffe caused TMU to exit the inning with zero runs having scored.
R3 Josh Johnston, in celebration, veered off before arriving at and touching home plate, setting up trailing baserunner R2 Andrew Johnston to inadvertently pass his teammate R3, and thus, cause the third out of the inning.
Because R3 had not yet arrived at home plate prior to being passed by R2, no runs scored prior to the third out of the inning. No appeal was necessary as this play did not involve a situation in which R3 may or may not have touched home plate as he ran past it: it was plainly obvious that R3 did not arrive at home plate.
This is also not abandonment, because pursuant to the MLB Umpire Manual (NCAA carries a similar interpretation), R3 is not said to have abandoned his baserunning responsibilities relative to touching home plate on a dead ball award such as a home run until he enters the dugout (e.g., in a situation where a base touch appeal wouldn't be applicable, such as this play).
Because R2 passed R3 (by virtue of touching home plate) prior to R3 either entering the dugout or returning to complete his running of the bases, the third out of the inning caused by runners passing precedes any potential abandonment or missed base touch situation.
I've been waiting for this. Thank you. As always the announcers are clueless
to be fair.....TO BE FAIR....they had very limited information and probably no replay.
I thought in this case they did pretty good given having no more info than people in the bleachers. This is why we need umpires to announce what happened like in football.
@@MH-Tesla I always said any announcer at the Collegiate or pro level should have to take and pass the same exam that we do so they'd think before opening their mouth. Especially in the MLB. Those guys are the worst
@@jamesrivera6068 I agree. That would solve a lot. They could also help themselves by watching this channel. I'm usually tough on commentators, but here they are saying they don't know for sure what just happened, don't have replay ability, but are doing their best to guess... and one did mention passing a runner AND told listeners that they might want to go back a look because people at home had that option. But. Yes. Commentators should care to know the rules.
How does one get this far in the game of baseball without learning the importance of touching home plate?
Immediate benching for at least a week needed here.
as someone who has umpired all levels of baseball (high school, amer. legion, college) for 24 years, i can tell you that this happens a lot more often than you would expect, or maybe even believe. something about emotion and hype takes over when a runner gets near home plate, especially in a home run/dead ball situation. my best umpire mentor had the following explanation to coaches in this situation: "yes, coach, all the runners have the RIGHT to score; but they also have the RESPONSIBILITY to score ACCORDING TO THE RULES. maybe go over this in your next practice." what a concept...
Protest was lifted half inning later. Coach told umpires they got it right and there was no protest. Some how the coaches got info that supported the umpires decision.
And you can't protest a judgment call.
Respect the coach for saying that
Under protest because they don’t like the correct call. Interesting
That’s a bold strategy Cotton, we’ll see if it pays off for them
I've never seen a protest under different conditions--have you?
@@bkembley I think that op was referring to this being the correct application of the rule. There have been incorrect applications of the rules successfully appealed in the past though
@@blake60ah41 Yeah...that's how I read op's post. I was being somewhat facetious and arrogant--because of course, I've never made a mistake on the field. =/
Excellent case review. Took a few minutes to make the determination on this. It's now in my toolbox.
I wouldn't use passing as the out. In this case I see that R3 abandoned his position.
Take this scenario. Say with 2 outs, R2 missed third and it was appealed. R3 would be scored. R1 and BR would not score.
Same thing here. R3 was the appealed 3rd out at the plate. Following runners R2-R1-BR do not score. And once R2 touched the plate, R3 cannot come back to touch the plate (which he didn't).
If less than 2 outs, R2 R1 BR would score.
Just found this in 2019 NCAA rules:
c. Any runner after reaching a base safely who leaves the base path heading for
his dugout or his defensive position, believing that there is no further play,
if the umpire judges the act of the runner to be considered abandoning his
efforts to run the bases. Even though an out is called, the ball remains in play
in regard to any other runner (see Rule 2-1, Abandonment);
Note: This rule will also cover similar types of plays: 1) Less than two outs, score
tied, last inning, runner on first, batter hits the ball out of the park for the winning
run. The runner on first touches second and believing the home run automatically
wins the game, cuts across the diamond and heads toward his bench as the batter
touches all the bases. In this example, the base runner would be called out for
abandoning his effort to touch the next base. The batter-runner is permitted to
continue around the bases to make his home run valid. If there were two outs, the
home run would not count. This is not an appeal play. 2) A runner believing
he is called out on a tag at first or third base starts for the dugout and progresses a
reasonable distance still indicating by his actions that he is out, shall be declared
out for abandoning the bases.
It says "heading for the dugout, not "entering" the dugout.
So, is this the true answer? Abandonment? Abandonment or appeal, the result is the same. R3 is the 3rd out, no runs score.
Thoughts?
It probably also mean if the first person did not touch home base then grand slam is wipeout and no runs scores because that was a 3rd out and game is over but if it happen and it is either the first out of second out, then the 2nd runner goes to third, the third runner goes to second and the batter goes to first if I'm correct by ruled on abandonment and wipeout the grand slam.
Great video. But I'm still not entirely sure what the end result is of this play. Do any runs score on this? R3 never touched home so obviously he can't score. R2 did touch home. However is he out the second he touches home because he passed R3? So does his run not count? And can R1 and B/R score on this play? Is the end result 3 outs and no runs scored?
No runs score.
R3 never made it to home, so as soon as R2 passes R3 he’s out automatically. Since two are out, that ends the inning.
If there are less than 0 outs, 1 run scores?
I'm thinking r3 is out for abondament, r2 is out for passing the runner and the hitter gets his run.
@@kinkaid7477 all three would be out, since they all passed R3
@@blake60ah41 i didn't realize that ended the play. I thought that only the 2 involved were out,
More of a scoring question here:
Would the batter-runner be credited with a home run, a single, or something else on this play?
Awesome question. I don't know that I have it right, but here's what I think. In order for the batter to get a single or more, all runners would have to advance at least one base safely. Because R3 did not advance safely, it is basically the same as a fielder's choice so it wouldn't count as an at bat, but it does count as a plate appearance. Pro score keepers, how did I do??
@@davej3781 does that mean that no runs score? Since R3 getting passed by R2 was the 3rd out of the inning, no runs score.
here's my interpretation. it's kind of like a dropped/uncaught third strike if the batter/runner reaches first base safely. the pitcher gets credit for a strikeout, but the third out is not recorded due to the out not being completed by the defense. i would interpret that the batter gets credit for a home run, since the ball is dead as soon as it leaves the field of play. he should not be penalized for the the fact that his teammates did not legally execute their responsibility in scoring the runs. so, YES, home run; but also YES, no runs score.
Question: why didn't the umpire call R2 out once he passed R3? Did he just not process what just occurred and didn't realize what to do until he had a second? Or, are we not to signal an out immediately in this situation. I'm thinking the correct mechanic is to signal the out right away. What's correct?
There were already 2 outs. So, passing is the 3rd. The other 2 runners do not matter as this is a called 3rd out.
@@josephburke7224 I think what Marvin is asking is why the umpire did not make the signals immediately after R2 touched home plate to (1) declare R2 out for passing R3 and (2) wave off any runs. If he had done that instantly, I don't think the announcers or coaches would have been quite so confused.
@closecallsports ... Gil .... if this was a situation w/ 1 out, could we get 2 here? Based on how you explained this, I'm going to say 'no', but ...I figured I'd ask ;) Thanks!
If there had been zero out, all three would have been called out because all of them passed R3.
I think if we're getting multiple outs we start to have to consider if the runner, in this case r3 abandoned his effort. One player err'd, we'd prefer to get one out. In the case of the play I did last week that would be impossible b/c the runners hovered around the plate. Let's hope this isn't a thing that becomes a trend or else those of us who have hair will be pulling it out quite often!! - tmac
I think it’s runner passing so R2 is out as soon as he passes R3 which is the third out and at that moment none of the runners have touched the plate, so no runs score
For a runner to be called out for passing a lead runner, does the runner need to COMPLETELY pass the lead runner, or only partially pass? A what point does the out occur? Sometimes at first base the runner and batter/runner are tied next to each other. Does the batter runner need to FULLY pass him or just mostly pass him or just be even?
Yes Marvin, when you see a lead runner passed the person passing should be called out. Yes the batter runner would need to pass (fully pass in your words doesn't exist in the rules) You'll know it when you see it!! Picture it as a race! If it's a photo finish don't call it! Hope that helps.
what's embarrassing on camera is the coach going up to the umpire questioning the call.
are these new or old videos of these players doing this??? you think you know to touch plate. celbrate afterwords
This one is new. The game was between Cumberland University and Truett McConnell University, both located in Georgia. It was played on February 10, 2021 and Cumberland won 4 - 3 despite the bonehead baserunning.
The video we did last week of the youth game was played in August of 2020. -tmac
UMPIN’ IS HARD.
I’ve done more than my fair share of telling umpires they suck, but plays like this show it’s not easy to catch everything (he did).
i strongly disagree. umpiring is easy if you have been trained well and have the canastas to enforce the rules. the only part that might be considered "hard" is putting up with the ignorance of the rules from coaches. but i've learned to keep a straight face during "discussions", and then smile as i'm walking away...
Never missed a bag let alone just decided it wasn’t needed to complete a run. That was a brain dead move. Cant wrap my mind around this. These are older kids! Tee ball
I had a situation similar and was wonder what the correct call was.
Bases loaded. 2 outs. HBP. Runner on 1st went to check on his “brother or cousin” can’t remember now. Umpire called him out of the baseline because he didn’t touch 2nd before going to check on his kin. Ball hit batter shoulder then helmet and knocked him down. Umpires didn’t allow a run to score either. All while the ball was dead as BR was still on the ground when the call was made.
What’s the correct call? Runner didn’t charge the mound or anything just went to see if batter was okay
I've got nothing here. Time is out once the HBP occurs. There's no time limit or direct path R1 has to take to 2B. No one passed him, as in in this example. As long as R1 was there on 2B when play restarts, there's no infraction.
I agree with Rich and Dave here. We would be required to speculate about what happens when play resumes to get an out. For example, if R1 runs back out toward second after making sure everyone is okay and he runs straight to his lead-off position toward third, the defense could make an appeal after putting the ball in play. I suppose it's possible, but there was no out there--at least not before play resumes and the runner screws up again.
He never had the chance to get to second as the umpire called him out once he started heading home instead of to second.
I had a feeling they were wrong as the ball was dead but didn’t know if there was some rule I had missed. Thanks guys
@@jackjon7763 I the umpire world that’s called MSM....Making S*#t Up. 😁
The umpire had no clue. The base path only matters when a play is being made on that runner. The call could have been protested because it is the misapplication of a rule.