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The Most Important Decision You Will Make About Your Model Railroad
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- Опубліковано 31 лип 2024
- Today we are talking about the pros and cons of the two most popular methods of powering your layout. DC and DCC.
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“The godly may trip seven times, but they will get up again.
But one disaster is enough to overthrow the wicked.
Don’t rejoice when your enemies fall;
don’t be happy when they stumble.
For the Lord will be displeased with you
and will turn his anger away from them.
Don’t fret because of evildoers;
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DC here. Have no problem with wiring block toggles and have a ton of old school locomotives I've collected over the years.
I used to be an old school DC guy. That is until a friend took me to visit someone's home layout with DCC and just the sound had me hooked! I was in the process of building a layout, so it was easy for me to make the switch.
Also something to consider: There are command stations available that will switch from DC to DCC and back, allowing you to run old-school locomotives on a layout without sacrificing the ability to DCC. However, for anyone just starting out DCC is the way to go on any layout where you may run more than one locomotive at a time. Even if it is just two back-to-back locos for power or a train with a DPU, DCC is the way to go.
I think I'll go with DC since using old locomotives at any size sounds most appealing to me.
Jimmy,
Nice basic video on this subject.
Now more than ever I want to stay with DC. DCC has way too many bells and whistles for me pardon the
pun. Being 71 years old I really enjoy old HO Tyco, Plasticville stuff from the 50's.
You have very nice thought provoking videos!
Phillip
For small layouts and beginners DC is a great option especially with a small layout because you will probably only be running one train at a time and it’ll probably be a loop with some turnouts to industries. DC is a great option here it’ll save you lots of money and you can spend that extra money on the scenery items.
DC person but heavily considering DCC. Thanks for the easily-switchable wiring idea, now I just need to wire my layout and finish track-laying up so I can finally get started with scenery and switch to dcc later. There is no coffee in any of my shelves, so its oat milk for today.
Im a dc guy guy myself my layout isn't that big cant run 2 trains on the same track not enough room. I use kato track so i can run 2 trains on different tracks.but the sound is bad ass .
One of the really big advantages of DCC, to me, is the ability to use a wireless throttle and can use any Smart Phone or Tablet as a throttle.
As far as cost goes, with what wood costs these days, any control system will be a minor cost compared to the cost of your layout. But of course if you are running a smaller layout that isn't necessarily true. Any, systems like DCC++ aren't all that expensive but then they are more complex.
With my layout, I set it up to run with either DC or DCC but I find I never use it in DC mode unless I'm trying out a new DC loco that I'll then convert to DCC.
Both. I still use both. I know i know... i dont have all my decoders in all my locos and buildings/lights
Another great video Jimmy. You reduced it to the basics which is just what I wanted when I planned my layout. For me one of the big draws with DCC was slow starts with no jerkiness, slow running and realistic braking. I run both due to some VERY old locos and each has it's merits as you say. I would stick to DCC if I had to start again. Way above my budget but slowly getting there. Thanks once again.
I do both. I like Japanese trains that I otder direct from Tokyo hobby shops. These are almost always straight DC. For my US layouts I always by DCC or at least DCC ready and add the decoder myself.
Drinking single estate Darjeeling tea, black.
At first i was going to go cheap and do the DC route, but since i will build modules and expand = bigger layout/more track and more trains i am going DCC. DCC with sound on all locos.
Keep up good work and I got my track fews days and thx for the happy days
I'm currently modernizing my grandpa's DC layout. 👍🏻 To run multiple locomotives independently was the USP for me 😉
Great episode! I am in the process of doing a new layout! Just from watching your shows, I am going to do all Kato HO scale. Still doing research on the track, but layout is the size of a single car garage, and will be a walk in. I have the NCE DCC, which I loved from my previous layout! Did find it alittle imtidating, but got the hang of it and set up and wiring was easy! Coffee I am drinking is some mixed box of K cups I bought at Ollies for our camping season! Of course camping is over for the year now !! Have a good one..!!
I operated DC for the longest time. Ever since I switched over to DCC just short of 7 years ago, I do not at all miss the days prior to DCC. I'm even at a point where I'm saving up to get the ESU LokProgrammer so I can do custom sounds on my locomotives.
I have heard a number of discussions on switching from DC to DCC. I never heard one about switching from DCC to DC. I tried DC on a small layout and that convinced me that I didn’t have a great future in wiring. I admire the guys who can create and wire beautiful control panels and keep track of everything.
I can’t imagine managing my fleet of 40+ locomotives without DCC, even with the occasional decoder “glitch “
I'm in my 70's & not sure whether I want to go through the trouble & expense of this transition just for someone else to enjoy after my death. I'll stick with DC for now.
My current layout - a 1' x 6' N scale switching layout - is currently wired for DC. I am powering it with an MRC power pack that I got either for my birthday or Christmas when I was still a teenager, and it all works just fine. But with that said, I'm contemplating DCC for my layout largely because of the possibilities of realistic sound. And the way I have wired my layout will make the switch fairly straightforward.
Back around 2004 Broadway Limited Imports released a series of On30 C-16 2-8-0s that were DC with sound. Called it their Blueline. Which was cheaper than their QSI DCC releases at the same time. You may Romberg those green and red locos for Christmas.
DCC has been around since the 1960's. I have an old Fleishmann 0-6-0T that's DCC equipped. My grandfather never knew that until I ran it with my newer locomotives. The bottom of the locomotive dates 1963 in West Germany. Though back then, DCC was just allowing multiple trains on the track, no directional lighting or anything like that yet. He (my grandfather) sent me the original catalog order form that stated as such. To think that the control system we so desire today came from a war-torn nation that gave us our space program, and over all left a negative, but progressive mark in history.
Hi Jimmy, Thanks for another thoughtful video summary. Today, I ran out of Kicking Horse, so it's Folger's Mountain Roast with 2 sugar 1 cream. Actually not too bad for "standard" coffee. Full disclosure up front: 1) My last MRR layout was n-scale, dismantled in 1973-74, and I have not track, rolling stock, or control systems on hand. 2) I'm a retired electrical engineer, and I've done a fair bit with control systems and "one-off" equipment builds for experimental research. 3) I'm disabled and on a fixed, limited budget. Once upon a time, at the very beginning of DCC it was - believe it or not - an "open source" project, as JMRI is today. And there is still some commonality in DCC, as far as a shared standard for CV codes, etc. On the other hand, there are some issues. One big one is that much of the control system hardware is manufacturer-dependent - not all work and play well together. The second is a trend that seems "odd." In every other area of micro-electronics design, we've seen a big move toward common-standard modular electronics - "electronic Lego" as one friend calls it, and those modules get more powerful, smaller, and cheaper every year. And when I say smaller, in some cases MUCH smaller. Now, I know about DCC++ and JMRI, but the situation with locomotive and rolling stock decoders is strange. Yes, some have more functionality, but the price has increased steadily and in large amounts. We can say, "decoder boards are custom designed, custom built boards. And that's true. Yet, I can design a very complex board of a similar size and density, and send the specs off to a build shop, and get anywhere from 10 to 10,000 boards back in under 2 weeks, at extraordinarily low prices. And those are not simple circuits. So I ask myself, "why are DCC modules for rolling stock so costly?" That's just a question - I don't have any answers one way or the other. I've also seen sound systems - good ones - where there is not a sound card and speaker in every locomotive, and by the magic of strategically placed speakers and knowing a loco's position, the sound comes out of a central computer controlled box to the speakers closest to the locomotive. That's just one example - I know there are others. And there are comparisons within electronics that show the opposite trend. Take for example amateur radio. Today, I can buy a handheld ham radio for $50-$100 that's very functional and robust, a unit that would have cost $1500 - $2500 in, say, 1995 (the year of DCC's inception). It will also be a fraction of the size and weight, and have many more available capabilities. We see similar examples in many other types of electronic devices - the now-commonplace cellphone, for example. What's so special about MRR DCC decoders that their development and costs trend in the opposite direction to almost everything else?
This doesn't even begin to touch on possible uses of RF control, whether WiFi or Bluetooth or something else, but I've seen some very sophisticated MRR systems where all the electronic hardware was hand-built, and they will do all that DCC does, and more, often at less cost.
DCC IS a system that's been around for almost 40 years, and it seems strange that it has become more expensive, and more manufacturer dependent (on the base station side) that it was originally envisioned. I don't know the ins and outs of this - I know its unlikely I'll be able to afford to get back into model railroading, DC or DCC, period - unfortunately. At the same time, I remember visiting MIT's Tech Model Railroad layout, which uses a completely unique control system (now in its 3rd or 4th iteration) - and it's neither DC nor DCC in the sense we talk about, but does amazing things. Now, I'll grant you that the people at MIT have much to draw on that most people don't, but none of it is "secret." It is, however, different. And I suppose that's my point: with the development of compact & complex modular electronics that become cheaper every year, are we going to see control systems that are neither DC nor DCC, but still very advanced in terms of how they work? I would not say "no" to that, since I learned early on that when an old engineer says, "it's impossible" some young smart one will come along in about 3 weeks or months with a whole other solution. Interesting times! Many thans for your great videos.
I use Rail Pro it works on both with no rewiring and you can run it with a DCC controller if you forgot to bring your rail pro controller with you
Carrier control has been around alot longer than 40 years.....back in the 60s with the old GE Aztrac system
Great explanation Jimmy! I am DCC and also looking into adopting LCC as well. - Jason
What is LCC?
@@manshedrailroad it stands for Layout Command Control. A seperate system that works with JMRI on a two way communication interface to control the layout, not the trains. Great for layouts that use a dispatcher during run sessions. RR Cirkits seems to be the only company right now going this direction but there are a couple of DCC systems that are looking into adopting it as well.
@@TheTrainFreak Thanks for the explanation. LCC sounds like a great way to go for someone with a large layout. Perhaps an LCC can control the lighting/dimming and other effects such as natural noises etc.
@@manshedrailroad it should to my understanding.
I am doing old school DC. Maybe someday will go DCC. Sound is not important to me just like to watch the trains run around the track.
Thanks for the Pro's and Con's of both.
GOD BLESS 🚂💖🚂💖🚂💖
Never understood the electrical part of the layout too well
I have converted many 35 year old athearn, blue box locos to dcc.
Good video
Just getting back into the hobby. My Father recently found all the old HO stuff I used to play with as a kid, haven't seen it in 20yrs. Thought about going DCC but decided on DC. While DCC seems nice on a large layout, I am doing a 4x8, which will easily allow me to isolate the main line, yard, spurs and siding to allow at least 3 locomotive to operate at once. The electrical is not an issue for me, and i could easily build a pulse width modulated supply for each track section to take advantage of the speed and torque control of a PWM supply. Although the lights and sound aspect are intriguing, I want to make this layout as basic and a hands on as possible, no automation or computer control, no fancy displays, just throttle controls physical switches for the turnouts, maybe put in a dusk dawn sensor for the street and yard lighting, but just to make it as immersive as possible, so the operator knows they are in control. Contemplating putting in a functional telegraph system as well, I have several keys that are more or less period accurate.
I run dc also
I have sound on my DC layout. Yes is stationary but it doesn't sound puny like on dcc
Other small points to note : Most DCC equipped locos have both analog and DCC modes - meaning they can be run on both types of systems. Also, most DCC systems allow for one DC loco to be run on the layout simultaneously with DCC equipped locos.
Both should be disabled. The DC mode in DCC decoders can sometimes cause them to run away at full speed, while the zero stretching cuts the bandwidth on the rails significantly, and isn't very good for the motor in the non decoder equipped locomotive. It's 2021, everything should be DCC end to end.
There is one handy use for the zero stretching though when setting up a modular layout, you can use it to phase the boosters before disabling it for actually running the layout.
DCC massively increases hobby satisfaction on layouts small to large. In the 1990s, when DCC systems necessarily cost hundreds and hundreds of dollars, there was a significant cost advantage for a 4x8 or so sized layout to wire block control, but that is no longer the case. DC block ends up costing as much or more than DCC for the miles of wire, switches, and knobs required to make it work, while being an archaic kludge. Today with DCC systems available off the shelf for about $200, and DCC++EX costing around $50, with wireless throttles easily made out of old smartphones or tablets, there is no reason that anyone should be using the DC block control kludge.
I thought about making the transition to DCC about 20 years ago but there were several different systems and decoders at the time and none of them were compatible with each other. I had heard some horror stories about passenger cars with incandescent bulbs getting a bit too hot during operation and distorting the car bodies. In the end, I decided it was best to keep the layout and loco fleet conventional.
DC block control isn't "conventional", it's a long outdated legacy kludge. The standard is DCC and has been for over 25 years.
@@woodalexander my layout is not set up with DC block control it is conventional in the purest sense. The closest thing it has to block control are the power routing switches and even those were upgrades from the original build, 30 odd years ago. Maybe I'm due for a reboot.
@@Closet_Jedi Then you're limited to one train at a time. Power routing switches aren't DCC friendly, but they can work with DCC if you're careful.
Great video. Thanks!
If I get a DCC locomotive will it still run on a DC layout?
I briefly considered DCC, but I have a LOT of vintage locomotives. So I made my layout strictly DC. Drinking 8 O'clock coffee with French vanilla creamer.
My next railroad will be the third option Deadrail!
I haven’t tried it yet but couldn’t I just convert my old DC locos over to DCC using a tsunami board?
This isn't a decision. It's 2021. DCC has been the standard for over 25 years. DC block control was a kludge that was used due to lack of a command control standard prior to DCC. Now that we have DCC, there is no need for DC outside of a test track prior to installing a decoder.
Enjoyed the content of your video. However a little off topic item that I caught was your video and audio didn't seem to be synced up with each other. Otherwise keep up the great work 👍
Wow Jimmy! Another great video and great breakdown of the subject. But first… I would like to thank all of the Vets who are viewing your channel.
For me, my decision had to do with space. I figured to stay with DC because of my limited space. Like I said before. I enjoy letting the trains run around while I’m “scratching” or putting together a new model from the box.
Coffee? Well it’s my Zoe’s (rise and shine) extra sugar. Happy Veterans Day
Also if I want some sound effects for my layout, I just run the clothes dryer in the background. 🤣
While I have not seen most of your excellent videos, but I never heard you mention if locomotives can go in reverse or not, and if DC or DCC makes a difference?
Currently running DC but contemplating the switch to DCC. Think i just have to disconnect the power for my switch's frogs and get a loco and controller. Im doing an 1860s layout though so I'm hoping the dcc loco I'd get will handle the switches ok.
If your powered frogs work with DC, they will work.with DCC. Power routing/electrofrog turnouts can work with DCC if you're careful, but they're not DCC friendly as they can cause momentary shorts or loss of power if you don't have the right gauge and good contact of the points against the stock rail.
One great advancement for DC users is that some sound equipped DCC locomotives also make sounds on DC. I tested a Broadway Limited 2-10-0 using nothing but a bench-top DC power supply. At 9.5V the engine ran through its startup routine sound sequence and idled with various noises. About every 0.5V more went to speed step 1 and so on with fully-timed chuffing, air/steam releases & dynamo sounds. And stepping down slowly caused brake sounds, slower chuffs and finally a steam shut down sequence. I have a BLI F7 diesel that does the equivalent. I imagine other manufacturers also have this.
So DC isn't just smoke and whistle anymore.
Can you go over what a ez command digital command control system
Don't. I started with one, they're horrible and limited. Get a Zephyr, a DR5000, or even make a DCC++EX system out of an Arduino if you're looking for something low cost that's actually a real DCC system.
@@woodalexander I see check it out
I have a question: what a problem to convert any DC loco to DCC? Already exist special controllers for it.
Also everyone can make same DCC unit: just buy components you need (add light/sound/steam by your wish); disigned a board on EasyEDA and order in JLCPCB; constructed... Profit!
P. S. I'm not think DC cheaper DCC - isolated tracks, wires, switches...
You're correct. DC is not cheaper than DCC once you factor in the miles of wire, toggle switches, and all that stuff. DCC can cost more with sound, but that's above and beyond basic DCC decoders.
Another flaw to dcc decoders frying
We can still buy new and the vintage market of locos is to much a moth to a light for us.4ever dc🚂🇨🇦
You realized that you referred to “DC” as “DCC” and then talked about Direct Current, you then talked about DCC later. It was odd because you never make errors. I went back and listened again and again and I heard you say DCC or DC. I guess it is early in the morning.
Yes that was an oopsie! I do record these pretty early in the morning haha!
It’s not hard to wire your layout for both DC and DCC.
I am Dc Dcc is to Technechcal for Me.