The problem with streetcars is that they must follow the rails and wires. An accident, power failure,or anything blocking the tracks shuts a line down,while a bus can simply detour around. It's why cities started replacing them as far back as the 1920s with buses. GM or no GM,they went the way of the horse and buggy.
My parents and grandparents used to tell me about all the electric trolleys, in Seattle, that they used to ride on. These electric vehicles disappeared and stinky diesel buses took over. Anyhoooo, in Ravenna Park, in the city, still had, at least into the 70s, many of the electric trolleys, just dumped and abandoned, with vines and weeds growing over them all. When I saw these things, it was like looking at ghosts. My dad said, that at one time, Seattle was planning to resurrect these old electric machines and use them on the streets, again. That never happened and I have always wondered what ever happened to those old rusty relics.
@DennisMorawski GM told us we needed to buy cars and then put money from their sale into creating a system that will blind the people into loyalty to their cars, such as lobbying for and sponsoring construction the interstate system.
This is a classic argument technique, blame the messenger, you don't provide any information that disputes the information provided. LA presently is trying to rebuild the transportation system it once had. The problem with the Red Cars was it was privately owned and was bought out by another privately owned company - GM. They bought it because it was competition, a classic bait and switch, get rid of the competition by buying it and then getting rid of it free market enterprise at work.
GM did strike the final blow to a weak and dying trolley car system in LA. The PE was in terminal condition, (because Angelenos switched to cars) when the GM dealt the final blow.
No it is NOT False. This is what happened. GM decided they needed to sell more cars and then convert everyone to buses. Or better put FORCE people to ride buses. This has been documented for quite some time now. I rather take a light rail system then ride a damn bus. Wouldn't YOU?
Trams have survived in many European cities till to date and remained as one of the most popular, environmentally -friendly modes of the public transport in the urban areas, thanks to the absence of GM conspiracy!
@sptrain98 they were manipulated by Oil Automobile and Tire Corporations to support the road transport over rail, which served them faithfully for over a century.
@jojopuppyfish 3 It is very common place for one business who wants to corner the market to buy out their competitor destroying all buildings then erect their own building. I knew a man who opened a Pizza joint. His competitor approached him & said "shut down or I will shut you down". Using city officials to harass he was shut down within 3 months. This stuff happened in the past & continues to happen to this day. It is life in the brutal world of business.
National City Lines, the consortium, had nothing to do with Pacific Electric. NCL bought the Los Angeles Railway (yellow cars) from the Huntington trust in 1946. They did reduce the rail routes of that system until only 5 lines remained and that was killed by the first MTA in 1963 even though it was profitable. PE sold what remained of its passenger operations to Metropolitan Coach Lines, a company based in San Diego which had dismantled the San Diego Electric railway. The reason PE failed are many but mostly people didn't use it after they bought cars and then the 55 million dollars in bond debt that was never retired.
They should have focused on Detroit (where GM is HQed, sorry.) where the end of the streetcar was the beginning of the end for Detroit. The building of the freeways here ruined great neighborhoods, like Black Bottom and Paradise Valley, and segregated Detroit even more.
Actually, Popstar, mixing cause and effect. The average joe couldn't afford it and had no reason to want to. Autos take an huge chunk of income to get/maintain and are utterly unsafe. Accidents account for more death, each year, than more than half our wars together. This was to force people to acquire cars they didn't want and to depend on it. Years of ads have convinced us of a need that doesn't really exist. Building cities around mass transit means that many forgo cars their whole lives
@bighondo77 I have ridden the subways in NY. Of course they do. The vid is about streetcars,which even NYC gave up for buses. The basic difference is a subway has a private right of way,whereas streetcars are out in traffic where a lot more can and does go wrong.
Well a lot of the American public supported slavery too at one time. National City Lines, GM's front company was involved with busition of streetcar lines. Though they aren't the main reason. It has more to do governmnet transport policy that is hostile rail in general. That's why over half of America's rail system is missing.
GM did not land the fatal blow to the Pacific Electric or other light rail, interurban rail. Don't let this propaganda fool you. Los Angeles at that time was a victim of a Mayor who disliked electric rail and wanted to "update" LA with buses. The PE was a private business, and LA paid for the maintenance of it's right of way. Not enough characters to finish but, it's not all true about GM and oil industry.
@jojopuppyfish In Big Business it is within the everyday normal function to squash your competition, to dominate the industry. Some stay strictly within the legal system using many lawyers, even actually creating laws with loopholes specifically for those individuals. Some step outside the law to intimidate & sometimes kill people. The Mafia themselves actually own industry, not as openly & not usually as violent as the 1920s but they are still there.
@newpage123 : well if you did ride it down the sidewalk and hit & injured someone.....you would be sued for possibly everything you have (or will have). Then you would realize why you need insurance
@jojopuppyfish Ok, so your saying people quit riding the street cars because they all could afford & preferred to drive a car. I would believe that if whomever originally owned the street cars simply went out of business for lack of sufficient profits but if it was you, If you owned GM then why on earth would you spend a large portion of your money to buy the "failing" street cars then go to the expense of dismantling it? That makes absolutely no logical sense whatsoever.
I'm in your shoes. Who killed the electric street car documentary? If I find something, you will be the first personal I will let know. I hope you keep me in mind if you obtain any info. Thanks in advance.
@TrainmasterCurt We would see that sooner if we let GM's failed business practices kill them, and had a viable means for the reconstruction of electric traction. Right now we have operations equipment, but most is of foreign manufacture, we lack an effective means to rebuild at the pace necessary to satisfy the american need.
A diesel bus is cheaper to own and maintain than electric interurban street cars. A diesel bus is more flexible and independent, and doesn't rely on tracks and electric wires overhead; both of which require regular maintenance and up-keep. GM may have gotten together with Firestone, Phillips and Standard Oil, but the fact is diesel buses are cheaper to operate than electric street cars and are a good solution for public transportation, and is the reason you still see them being used today. Philadelphia saved millions by getting rid of their street cars and switching to diesel powered buses. Watch the UA-cam video "Diesels and Dollars - 1958"
Well, having heard the other side of the story, I don't hold to this vid. The sad fact is that Pacific Electric simply didn't keep up with the growth of the suburbs, and their own service left them redundant & vulnerable to the very buy-outs that are described here. Don't get me wrong, I'm not defending GM. Gods, no. I'm just saying that this is only one part of a bigger story.
If there was a conspiracy GM wasted their money. Starting in the 1920's people began abandoning mass transit for the automobile, and unfortunatly today most people would still prefer to use the automobile to get around. It is the American public who chose the private automobile over mass transit. If anyone is to blame for the loss of the electric streetcar it is the American public.
Not necessarily. In Snell's documentary it mentions how, in LA at the end of the war, the ridership was through the roof because of the war effort. What happened was in part GI's coming home who did opt for the suburban lifestyle (sprawl + cars) but also the lack of a better option in rail transit. Sort of a domino effect: it became more "socially hip" to own a car, people started building with cars in mind (a substantial amount of the time because it was financially "convenient" for them), fewer people used public transit, therefore investment in public transit lessened, furthering the conception that cars were "necessary", etc.
Competition is key to the "free market." No competitors, no competition. If government intervenes with longterm subsidy of one, it ensures competition only by subsidizing the others -- unless its true goal is establishing hegemonic monopoly for its "friends" with kickback for itself. The trouble with monopolies is that they ultimately kill themselves -- precisely as laughably managed GM has now managed to do. Sadly, all Americans have paid for this -- in dollars and in blood. Ike warned us.
But the truth is, that buses will fade and Electric LRT and Streetcars, Interurbans will make a comeback soon, we need such an improvement, i live in Winnipeg, and i am so sick of having buses as the only public transit option, hmm wonder if GM killed our streetcar system too?? Damn greedy corporates! all they love is money, they don't care about the public
Boycott GM, bring back the streetcars!! May'be GM should cease to exist and instead of Governments giving money to GM, give it to the Cities to rebuild streetcars!
@jojopuppyfish actually greed killed the streetcar, people like to drive, but when you take the alternative to the car out, what are you gonna do? you can't walk 10km to work every day. People liked to drive but at that time it was all in the pleasure to drive, if they had to go to work or go long distance they used rail, besides cars did not offer confort like today. I don't know what to say, the people who did this are dead because they got old so what was the point getting all the money?!
Still to this day American transport policy is hostile to rail. There use to 260,000 miles of track in the US now there 140,000. Railroads have to operate on a profit or loss basis, though roads like the one in front of your house don't have to. Also rail transport use 1/10 the energy of road transport.
@jemdude22 Europeans are fortunate to not have the heart of GM or any other Auto monopoly within their borders. Thus they were spared from the crookedness that effected their American cousins. Also, the Europeans are not as gullible to industry's unbaked and self serving claims.
This is simply false. The rail system had decided to go to buses 4 years before GM bought them. The rail system cave in to the masses. They simply all wanted cars back then and wanted some place to drive them. I have a link but cannot get it to post.
The problem with streetcars is that they must follow the rails and wires. An accident, power failure,or anything blocking the tracks shuts a line down,while a bus can simply detour around. It's why cities started replacing them as far back as the 1920s with buses. GM or no GM,they went the way of the horse and buggy.
My parents and grandparents used to tell me about all the electric trolleys, in Seattle, that they used to ride on. These electric vehicles disappeared and stinky diesel buses took over. Anyhoooo, in Ravenna Park, in the city, still had, at least into the 70s, many of the electric trolleys, just dumped and abandoned, with vines and weeds growing over them all. When I saw these things, it was like looking at ghosts. My dad said, that at one time, Seattle was planning to resurrect these old electric machines and use them on the streets, again. That never happened and I have always wondered what ever happened to those old rusty relics.
That 20 years is soon approaching from the date this film was made.
30 now :)
@DennisMorawski GM told us we needed to buy cars and then put money from their sale into creating a system that will blind the people into loyalty to their cars, such as lobbying for and sponsoring construction the interstate system.
This is a classic argument technique, blame the messenger, you don't provide any information that disputes the information provided. LA presently is trying to rebuild the transportation system it once had. The problem with the Red Cars was it was privately owned and was bought out by another privately owned company - GM. They bought it because it was competition, a classic bait and switch, get rid of the competition by buying it and then getting rid of it free market enterprise at work.
GM did strike the final blow to a weak and dying trolley car system in LA. The PE was in terminal condition, (because Angelenos switched to cars) when the GM dealt the final blow.
berdooflyer PE never had anything to do with National City Lines. see my post above.
No it is NOT False. This is what happened. GM decided they needed to sell more cars and then convert everyone to buses. Or better put FORCE people to ride buses.
This has been documented for quite some time now.
I rather take a light rail system then ride a damn bus.
Wouldn't YOU?
Trams have survived in many European cities till to date and remained as one of the most popular, environmentally -friendly modes of the public transport in the urban areas, thanks to the absence of GM conspiracy!
@sptrain98 they were manipulated by Oil Automobile and Tire Corporations to support the road transport over rail, which served them faithfully for over a century.
@jojopuppyfish
3
It is very common place for one business who wants to corner the market to buy out their competitor destroying all buildings then erect their own building. I knew a man who opened a Pizza joint. His competitor approached him & said "shut down or I will shut you down". Using city officials to harass he was shut down within 3 months. This stuff happened in the past & continues to happen to this day. It is life in the brutal world of business.
National City Lines, the consortium, had nothing to do with Pacific Electric. NCL bought the Los Angeles Railway (yellow cars) from the Huntington trust in 1946. They did reduce the rail routes of that system until only 5 lines remained and that was killed by the first MTA in 1963 even though it was profitable. PE sold what remained of its passenger operations to Metropolitan Coach Lines, a company based in San Diego which had dismantled the San Diego Electric railway. The reason PE failed are many but mostly people didn't use it after they bought cars and then the 55 million dollars in bond debt that was never retired.
the transportation of the future was invented in the PAST !
You got it right, too many people buy into the GM conspiracy theory.
@Corvettably Other auto corporations, the oil industry, and the tire industry. Not to mention Diesel bus manufacturers
They should have focused on Detroit (where GM is HQed, sorry.) where the end of the streetcar was the beginning of the end for Detroit. The building of the freeways here ruined great neighborhoods, like Black Bottom and Paradise Valley, and segregated Detroit even more.
Actually, Popstar, mixing cause and effect. The average joe couldn't afford it and had no reason to want to. Autos take an huge chunk of income to get/maintain and are utterly unsafe. Accidents account for more death, each year, than more than half our wars together.
This was to force people to acquire cars they didn't want and to depend on it. Years of ads have convinced us of a need that doesn't really exist. Building cities around mass transit means that many forgo cars their whole lives
Most ironic, is the GM is about to go broke within a few months.
Lol what
@bighondo77 I have ridden the subways in NY. Of course they do. The vid is about streetcars,which even NYC gave up for buses. The basic difference is a subway has a private right of way,whereas streetcars are out in traffic where a lot more can and does go wrong.
Well a lot of the American public supported slavery too at one time.
National City Lines, GM's front company was involved with busition of streetcar lines.
Though they aren't the main reason. It has more to do governmnet transport policy that is hostile rail in general.
That's why over half of America's rail system is missing.
Is there a full clip to this video
Yup why is this video on my recommended list?
GM did not land the fatal blow to the Pacific Electric or other light rail, interurban rail. Don't let this propaganda fool you. Los Angeles at that time was a victim of a Mayor who disliked electric rail and wanted to "update" LA with buses. The PE was a private business, and LA paid for the maintenance of it's right of way. Not enough characters to finish but, it's not all true about GM and oil industry.
GM did this to sell more cars, to use oil, awfull goodyear tires and sell maintinances on their 8MPG cars.
@gtgene Have you ever seen a subway system in a city like Manhattan? Works great.
not as good as JAPAN, if a Train is 10 seconds late the Operator is FIRED.
Japans trains are safe and ontime.
@jojopuppyfish
In Big Business it is within the everyday normal function to squash your competition, to dominate the industry. Some stay strictly within the legal system using many lawyers, even actually creating laws with loopholes specifically for those individuals. Some step outside the law to intimidate & sometimes kill people. The Mafia themselves actually own industry, not as openly & not usually as violent as the 1920s but they are still there.
@newpage123 : well if you did ride it down the sidewalk and hit & injured someone.....you would be sued for possibly everything you have (or will have). Then you would realize why you need insurance
@jojopuppyfish
Ok, so your saying people quit riding the street cars because they all could afford & preferred to drive a car. I would believe that if whomever originally owned the street cars simply went out of business for lack of sufficient profits but if it was you, If you owned GM then why on earth would you spend a large portion of your money to buy the "failing" street cars then go to the expense of dismantling it? That makes absolutely no logical sense whatsoever.
And yet the U.S. and Canadian governments bailed out Chrysler and GM!!
@frankpatton That's not free market, that's monopolization. Monopolization is the monstrous byproduct of an unprotected free market.
You're conflating the cost of surface track laid in the roadway with the cost of tunneling under a city which is 100's to 1000's times more expensive!
I'm in your shoes. Who killed the electric street car documentary? If I find something, you will be the first personal I will let know. I hope you keep me in mind if you obtain any info. Thanks in advance.
@TrainmasterCurt We would see that sooner if we let GM's failed business practices kill them, and had a viable means for the reconstruction of electric traction. Right now we have operations equipment, but most is of foreign manufacture, we lack an effective means to rebuild at the pace necessary to satisfy the american need.
so its wasnt the oil companies who killed the electic car?
@jojopuppyfish I'm sure that helped, but they give evidence for their view, while you only gave a conjecture, a plausible one, though.
I'd like to sit on the roof of that electric trolly and eat a ham sandwich
A diesel bus is cheaper to own and maintain than electric interurban street cars. A diesel bus is more flexible and independent, and doesn't rely on tracks and electric wires overhead; both of which require regular maintenance and up-keep. GM may have gotten together with Firestone, Phillips and Standard Oil, but the fact is diesel buses are cheaper to operate than electric street cars and are a good solution for public transportation, and is the reason you still see them being used today. Philadelphia saved millions by getting rid of their street cars and switching to diesel powered buses. Watch the UA-cam video "Diesels and Dollars - 1958"
Well, having heard the other side of the story, I don't hold to this vid. The sad fact is that Pacific Electric simply didn't keep up with the growth of the suburbs, and their own service left them redundant & vulnerable to the very buy-outs that are described here.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not defending GM. Gods, no. I'm just saying that this is only one part of a bigger story.
sirrliv gm and its consortium had nothing to do with PE, see my post above.
If there was a conspiracy GM wasted their money. Starting in the 1920's people began abandoning mass transit for the automobile, and unfortunatly today most people would still prefer to use the automobile to get around. It is the American public who chose the private automobile over mass transit. If anyone is to blame for the loss of the electric streetcar it is the American public.
Not necessarily. In Snell's documentary it mentions how, in LA at the end of the war, the ridership was through the roof because of the war effort. What happened was in part GI's coming home who did opt for the suburban lifestyle (sprawl + cars) but also the lack of a better option in rail transit. Sort of a domino effect: it became more "socially hip" to own a car, people started building with cars in mind (a substantial amount of the time because it was financially "convenient" for them), fewer people used public transit, therefore investment in public transit lessened, furthering the conception that cars were "necessary", etc.
Competition is key to the "free market." No competitors, no competition. If government intervenes with longterm subsidy of one, it ensures competition only by subsidizing the others -- unless its true goal is establishing hegemonic monopoly for its "friends" with kickback for itself. The trouble with monopolies is that they ultimately kill themselves -- precisely as laughably managed GM has now managed to do. Sadly, all Americans have paid for this -- in dollars and in blood. Ike warned us.
@lemmodavid You're wrong, wrong, wrong, the PE was nearly out of business before GM had any power or influence. This is just urban myth and stupidity.
But the truth is, that buses will fade and Electric LRT and Streetcars, Interurbans will make a comeback soon, we need such an improvement, i live in Winnipeg, and i am so sick of having buses as the only public transit option, hmm wonder if GM killed our streetcar system too?? Damn greedy corporates! all they love is money, they don't care about the public
GM won, citizens started liking private owned cars.
In N Out won also LOL
Boycott GM, bring back the streetcars!! May'be GM should cease to exist and instead of Governments giving money to GM, give it to the Cities to rebuild streetcars!
@jojopuppyfish actually greed killed the streetcar, people like to drive, but when you take the alternative to the car out, what are you gonna do? you can't walk 10km to work every day. People liked to drive but at that time it was all in the pleasure to drive, if they had to go to work or go long distance they used rail, besides cars did not offer confort like today. I don't know what to say, the people who did this are dead because they got old so what was the point getting all the money?!
If you bothered to follow the links I've already given you would know.
Still to this day American transport policy is hostile to rail.
There use to 260,000 miles of track in the US now there 140,000.
Railroads have to operate on a profit or loss basis, though roads like the one in front of your house don't have to.
Also rail transport use 1/10 the energy of road transport.
@jemdude22 Europeans are fortunate to not have the heart of GM or any other Auto monopoly within their borders. Thus they were spared from the crookedness that effected their American cousins. Also, the Europeans are not as gullible to industry's unbaked and self serving claims.
This is simply false. The rail system had decided to go to buses 4 years before GM bought them. The rail system cave in to the masses. They simply all wanted cars back then and wanted some place to drive them. I have a link but cannot get it to post.
GM suck??