another thing of note is to make sure you have more late wood in your bow than early (spongy looking) wood. The late wood is where all the strength of a stave is. Too much early wood (50/50) or more will cause it to set heavily or even snap all together.
Hi Weylin: Thanks so much for your videos. I live in a part of Spain where there are many chinaberries. I would like to know if you can make video on how to make a bow out of a chinaberry stave. Thanks
Hello Weylin, First of all great video, allot of nice information. I would like your opinion on using Black Cherry wood. I am from the Netherlands and osage and hickory are quit hard to come by. I have a piece of hazel tree as well, wich is already cut, split and cealed for drying. Would like to hear your thought's. Thank you in advance!
I'm a big fan of black locust myself. I have a stave of yew that I'm going to use when I attempt to follow a build along that Gordon posted some time back on the PA forum. I have tried to dry lilac a few times, it has been the worst checking wood I've cut. If you know of any trick for lilac drying, let me know. Great looking bows, I look forward to seeing your posts.
You won't go wrong with Gordon's build alongs. He's a friend of mine and taught me a lot. He knows what he is doing. I havent tried lilac yet. I would keep the bark on, seal the whole thing and make sure it dries slowly. Some woods just like to check.
For my first piece I’m using black walnut. I already started it but I probably should’ve tried a different piece first. I was really excited and had some old milled pieces around the house. The wood does bend however it is very tough!! It looks so awesome though after only one coat of linseed.
Walnut can make a selfbow though it can be a bit more challenging than your typical bow woods, i've heard. I've never used it myself. it sure is pretty though. good luck!
Thinking of using white oak for next attempt I once tried hickory but I got my stave and it warped to the point that I was unwilling to try it. Any advice one white oak staves go. I'm aiming for around a 45lb to 50lb bow.
Nice video, audio is pretty low though. Not sure if you could get a mic or anything or just have the camera closer. Great info, I look forward to the rest of the series. Nice recurve for your son on facebook too.
Thank you, I'm glad you found it useful. That bow is osage orange. It is stained with some leather dye. facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.1396248997108544.1073741858.462254387174681&type=1&l=d91bb9ab3a
We have a lot of mulberry, what are your thoughts on this. Quirks, strengths and shortcomings. I acquired an eight foot long, 10 inch diameter clean log log,extremely strait,clean with no knots painted the ends and stood it up in my basement to dry about two years ago and should be ready. Any insights on your part would be greatly appreciated. PS. this log is comparable to osage in weight and the ded sticks break with difficulty, when they break it stings your fingers and is so stringy that it won't detach without repeated bending and twisting. Thanks for any future comments.
I've never worked with mulberry but I hear good things about it. It's related to Osage but is not as dense. You Chase a heartwood ring for the back, just like Osage. It needs to be wider and longer than Osage to make up for the lower density. But otherwise it makes a great bow. Good luck
man thank you so much for your wonderful content. your bows are beautiful works of art. may i inquire, is it preferable to have natural reflex rather than heat treating reflex into a bow stave ? i imagine that heat treating quite often weakens limbsby the way i wish you continued success!! :)
I find that natural reflex is usually "stronger" than induced. meaning it holds better and provides a little more zip. I don't find that a reasonable amount of heating weakens the limb.
Any info on vine maple? I hear it dries fast, is this true? I harvested it in western WA and brought it back to eastern WA where I split it. Does it handle steam bending well? Any tips for removing the bark after the staves are dry?
vine maple is awesome bow wood. I've made quite a few bows with it. It dries fairly fast compared to osage or yew. It still needs to get good and dry though. Once it's dry you'll need to scrape off most of the bark with a draw knife without nicking the wood underneath. use a scraper if you have to. Then pour boiling water over a small section of the inner bark and scrape it off with a spoon and a steel kitchen scrubby. It's tedious but it gives you a perfect back. I show how to do it in my beginner series with the hickory bow.
Swiftwood Bows Awesome!! Thanks for the info! I really like it so far. I took a test piece and tried to break it. 2 foot section and an inch square. Had to bend it well past 90 degrees before it started breaking. Thanks for the information I greatly appreciate it!
What did ancient or medieval people use to seal the ends to prevent cracking during drying? Is there a simple item one can use form nature? For example, tree sap maybe? Also - what is the typical drying time of a wood stave?
Good question. I'm not sure exactly. It's likely they worked most of their staves down while green and used small diameter trees/branches. That would reduce their labor, drying time and likelyhood of checking. They might have needed to lash them down to avoid warping though. Someone like Eric Smith of plainsindianbows.com or Steve Allely would know better than me.
Good question. It depends on the species. With yew thinner, tighter growth rings is typically more desirable because it means the wood is denser and it will take less wood to make a strong bow. Though yew with thicker growth rings can still make perfectly fine bows. With a wood like osage a lot of people like to have thicker growth rings because it's easier to chase a thick growth ring without accidentally cutting through. Though, once again, thin ringed osage can make a good bow too. In osage you also need to pay attention to the ratio between the hard late wood portion of the growth ring vs. the crumbly early wood. you want mostly the darker late wood and only thin traces of early wood. I don't even pay attention to the rings with white woods like hickory, vine maple or oak. Just remove the bark and make a bow. :)
You can remove it or leave it on for now. Seal the ends either way but if you remove the bark I'd seal the back as well. Red elm can make a bow but it's softer and lighter than some other elms so it can be marginal. Keep it wide and flat and maybe give it a little extra length do it's not too stressed. Good luck.
I'm just getting started. I have lots of white oak and sugar maple here in the northeast on my lot. Do I peel the bark off those staves after cutting and paint the ends? I heard I can rough it out (you mention this as I type) and that will reduce the white oak or sugar maple drying time to a month or two. After I rough it out, should I paint the ends? Thank you.
Hey, welcome to the addiction. :) White oak and sugar maple can both be good bow woods. You can peel the bark or leave it on for now. both options have their pro's and cons. If you leave it on it can protect the back from incidental dings, it also resists mildew starting on the back if you're in a wet climate ( I have to deal with that sometimes in western oregon). It can be easier to take it off when the stave is still wet. There are insects that lay their eggs in the bark that can tunnel into the wood. It will dry faster without the bark. Either way, I would leave it fairly wide and bulky to start with. It will lose a lot of excess water over the first few weeks. After that you can rough it out and let it dry the rest of the way. If you rough it out right away when it's still soaking wet the wood can warp. The best way to know for sure if a stave is dry is by weighing it. Keep weighing it until the weight stops decreasing for a week or two. Better to err on the side of letting it sit too long than trying to bend it while it's still green. Paint the ends right away, (I've started to use wax. I think it does a better job) and then you can do it again after you rough it out if you feel like you need to.
have you ever tried black locust ?ive worked a green stave down to a bow blank over a three week process all along keeping it inside in airconditioning ive now sealed the blank with wood glue I think maybe what three months of drying inside .its a American flat bow design.
I haven't worked black locust yet but I just picked up a couple seasoned staves so I will try it soon. Make sure you get that tiller spot on. Black locust is not forgiving and will get compression fractures easily. It can make a great bow but it doesn't tolerate poor design or poor tiller.
I have made plenty of bows from black locust and honey locust. In my experience leave the bark on or if you take it off seal the back and ends quickly after cutting at least within a day from cutting. It dries quick. It’s one of the few woods that can burn quite well green . (Makes a real hot fire) but design considerations make a flat belly moderately wide inch and a half or better. The wood is real dense so it will make a more thin limbed bow and maintain larger draw weight when compared to hickory. Treat the wood like Osage and be careful with knots takes dry heat and boiling pretty well without fear of checking. all and all great bow wood.
thankyou very much for the info. I now have three black locust and three dogwood staves going at the same time I am working these from green wood that was cut in MAY of this year. Each time I work them I seal them back up with titebond wood glue and leave a few places where moisture can escape they are drying quite nicely inside in the aircondition with no checking and very little reflex or deflex.
In my experience locust has two states while it is still considered green it is very stringy wood lots of fibers bends easy and is more difficult to cut through but once the fibers dry out to about 12-15 percent moisture content the wood is a joy to work with. When backing the wood you will understand. My advice is leave your best stave till last and let it season work with the lesser staves make a bow and understand the wood. It took me making and breaking at least 6 locust bows before I understood what the wood was telling me.
I got a hackberry stave (celtis australis) and I wonder how to work with its knots, can't find much about that wood bowmaking. Do you know anything that can help?
I've never used it but I hear hackberry is a good bow wood. I'd avoid knots if you can. Shouldn't be too hard to find straight clean hackberry from what I've seen. Keep it wide and flat and consider heat tempering the belly
You can rough it out before it is dry and it will definitely speed up the drying process. I'd wait a few weeks before you rough it out so it can shed some of the initial water and stabilize a little. the wood can warp sometimes if it's too wet. If you want a 2" wide bow I would rough it out to slightly wider than 2" for the whole length. you can taper it once it's dry. This will also help prevent warping. If you get an accurate scale you can measure the weight of the stave regularly. When it stops losing weight for a week or two then the wood is as dry as it's going to get in your climate.
@@valdemar621 = The wood type chooses the width. Good wood makes skinny bows. Bad wood equals good wood only if its wider,.....if you make bad wood skinny the belly chush's and crystalize's. But made wider will shoot as well as good woods. Elm is great wood,.... you just start widdling. Locust is the other osage and its straighter eastern Indians used it to make like a 1 inch wide bow I believe. But I'd go wider. The Bowyers bible gives you optimum widths for most woods. I personally like all bows except new one's,......I prefer chinese copies of 80's bow's.
Has anyone tried to use Buckthorn? Not able to find much info on it. I am a 1st time Bowyer. and so far I am 0 and 3. I did get 8 shots from my 2nd attempt with Buck thorn. I have broken 2 buckthorn staves, and 1 hickory board bow. Any help or advice would be gratefully appreciated.
steve ricci you can. Some people do. I haven't ever found it necessary. If you rough out a really green stave to near bow dimensions it could go squirrely on you and you might consider strapping it down. I don't rough out really green wood. I wait until it is further along in the drying process.
It can be. A lot of people use it. I'm not a huge fan of it based on my limited experience. It can definitely make a bow though. Treat it like other white woods, wide, flat and long.
Dawesome21 Ha, yeah. that's my first one. :) I had Gordon Ferlitsch and John Strunk to help me tiller it. pretty sure it wouldn't have turned out that nice if I was on my own. I owe a lot to the people who have guided me along the way.
Sorry. I realize the audio sucks. It was one of my first videos and I clearly had some things to learn on the videography side. For now you can turn on the captions. I plan to redo this video in a more audible fashion.
Great info in your video. Makes being a newbie in bow making a little easier. I have a ton of Black Locust trees on my land. Is this good for bows? are they better with reflex or compression?
Black locust makes a great bow. You can do straight limbed or recurve with it. It struggles a bit in compression do make it wide and flat. Make sure the tiller is really good or you can end up with compression fractures. It's a good teacher because it demanded perfection
I've been trying to make bl bow and it's better in tension than compression. I've heard trapping the back(meaning thinner back of bow and wider belly. Trapizoidal shape) can help. Also heat treating the belly.
another thing of note is to make sure you have more late wood in your bow than early (spongy looking) wood. The late wood is where all the strength of a stave is. Too much early wood (50/50) or more will cause it to set heavily or even snap all together.
PS. Early wood is always the lighter color rings when you look at a stave on end.
That's true, thank you. I'm planning a newer improved version of this video soon. I'll make sure to mention that
Hi Weylin:
Thanks so much for your videos. I live in a part of Spain where there are many chinaberries. I would like to know if you can make video on how to make a bow out of a chinaberry stave. Thanks
Hello Weylin,
First of all great video, allot of nice information. I would like your opinion on using Black Cherry wood. I am from the Netherlands and osage and hickory are quit hard to come by. I have a piece of hazel tree as well, wich is already cut, split and cealed for drying. Would like to hear your thought's. Thank you in advance!
I'm a big fan of black locust myself. I have a stave of yew that I'm going to use when I attempt to follow a build along that Gordon posted some time back on the PA forum.
I have tried to dry lilac a few times, it has been the worst checking wood I've cut. If you know of any trick for lilac drying, let me know.
Great looking bows, I look forward to seeing your posts.
You won't go wrong with Gordon's build alongs. He's a friend of mine and taught me a lot. He knows what he is doing. I havent tried lilac yet. I would keep the bark on, seal the whole thing and make sure it dries slowly. Some woods just like to check.
Great words of wisdom, I learned a lot!
Thanks, glad to hear it
Great video good straightforward info
For my first piece I’m using black walnut. I already started it but I probably should’ve tried a different piece first. I was really excited and had some old milled pieces around the house. The wood does bend however it is very tough!! It looks so awesome though after only one coat of linseed.
Walnut can make a selfbow though it can be a bit more challenging than your typical bow woods, i've heard. I've never used it myself. it sure is pretty though. good luck!
Thinking of using white oak for next attempt I once tried hickory but I got my stave and it warped to the point that I was unwilling to try it. Any advice one white oak staves go. I'm aiming for around a 45lb to 50lb bow.
Nice video, audio is pretty low though. Not sure if you could get a mic or anything or just have the camera closer. Great info, I look forward to the rest of the series. Nice recurve for your son on facebook too.
Thanks for the feedback. I will see what I can do to improve the audio.
Is northeastern cherry wood good for make staves ? And what design of bow you feel is optimal for this ?
First I must say great video lots of useful information. Second the dark highly recurved bow in the middle of the table. What is it made from ?
Thank you, I'm glad you found it useful. That bow is osage orange. It is stained with some leather dye. facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.1396248997108544.1073741858.462254387174681&type=1&l=d91bb9ab3a
Swiftwood Bows it's a beautiful bow man thanks for the reply
We have a lot of mulberry, what are your thoughts on this.
Quirks, strengths and shortcomings.
I acquired an eight foot long, 10 inch diameter clean log log,extremely strait,clean with no knots painted the ends and stood it up in my basement to dry about two years ago and should be ready.
Any insights on your part would be greatly appreciated.
PS. this log is comparable to osage in weight and the ded sticks break with difficulty, when they break it stings your fingers and is so stringy that it won't detach without repeated bending and twisting.
Thanks for any future comments.
I've never worked with mulberry but I hear good things about it. It's related to Osage but is not as dense. You Chase a heartwood ring for the back, just like Osage. It needs to be wider and longer than Osage to make up for the lower density. But otherwise it makes a great bow. Good luck
@@SwiftwoodBows That makes sense because the rings are much thicker than the osage we have in western Pennsylvania.
Thanks for your timely response.
man thank you so much for your wonderful content. your bows are beautiful works of art. may i inquire, is it preferable to have natural reflex rather than heat treating reflex into a bow stave ? i imagine that heat treating quite often weakens limbsby the way i wish you continued success!! :)
I find that natural reflex is usually "stronger" than induced. meaning it holds better and provides a little more zip. I don't find that a reasonable amount of heating weakens the limb.
Swiftwood Bows kk ty!!
Any info on vine maple? I hear it dries fast, is this true? I harvested it in western WA and brought it back to eastern WA where I split it. Does it handle steam bending well? Any tips for removing the bark after the staves are dry?
vine maple is awesome bow wood. I've made quite a few bows with it. It dries fairly fast compared to osage or yew. It still needs to get good and dry though. Once it's dry you'll need to scrape off most of the bark with a draw knife without nicking the wood underneath. use a scraper if you have to. Then pour boiling water over a small section of the inner bark and scrape it off with a spoon and a steel kitchen scrubby. It's tedious but it gives you a perfect back. I show how to do it in my beginner series with the hickory bow.
Swiftwood Bows Awesome!! Thanks for the info! I really like it so far. I took a test piece and tried to break it. 2 foot section and an inch square. Had to bend it well past 90 degrees before it started breaking. Thanks for the information I greatly appreciate it!
Would you think it’s a good idea to steam bend a stave if you notice a bit of a twist?
What did ancient or medieval people use to seal the ends to prevent cracking during drying? Is there a simple item one can use form nature? For example, tree sap maybe? Also - what is the typical drying time of a wood stave?
Good question. I'm not sure exactly. It's likely they worked most of their staves down while green and used small diameter trees/branches. That would reduce their labor, drying time and likelyhood of checking. They might have needed to lash them down to avoid warping though. Someone like Eric Smith of plainsindianbows.com or Steve Allely would know better than me.
When dealing with staves and roughing out profiles,, is it better to have more thinner growth rings in the bow or less thicker growth rings??
Good question. It depends on the species. With yew thinner, tighter growth rings is typically more desirable because it means the wood is denser and it will take less wood to make a strong bow. Though yew with thicker growth rings can still make perfectly fine bows. With a wood like osage a lot of people like to have thicker growth rings because it's easier to chase a thick growth ring without accidentally cutting through. Though, once again, thin ringed osage can make a good bow too. In osage you also need to pay attention to the ratio between the hard late wood portion of the growth ring vs. the crumbly early wood. you want mostly the darker late wood and only thin traces of early wood. I don't even pay attention to the rings with white woods like hickory, vine maple or oak. Just remove the bark and make a bow. :)
I have some elm staves i i just split and sealed the ends do i need to remove the bark and seal it i want to use the sap wood i think it's red elm
You can remove it or leave it on for now. Seal the ends either way but if you remove the bark I'd seal the back as well. Red elm can make a bow but it's softer and lighter than some other elms so it can be marginal. Keep it wide and flat and maybe give it a little extra length do it's not too stressed. Good luck.
I'm just getting started. I have lots of white oak and sugar maple here in the northeast on my lot. Do I peel the bark off those staves after cutting and paint the ends? I heard I can rough it out (you mention this as I type) and that will reduce the white oak or sugar maple drying time to a month or two. After I rough it out, should I paint the ends? Thank you.
Hey, welcome to the addiction. :) White oak and sugar maple can both be good bow woods. You can peel the bark or leave it on for now. both options have their pro's and cons. If you leave it on it can protect the back from incidental dings, it also resists mildew starting on the back if you're in a wet climate ( I have to deal with that sometimes in western oregon). It can be easier to take it off when the stave is still wet. There are insects that lay their eggs in the bark that can tunnel into the wood. It will dry faster without the bark. Either way, I would leave it fairly wide and bulky to start with. It will lose a lot of excess water over the first few weeks. After that you can rough it out and let it dry the rest of the way. If you rough it out right away when it's still soaking wet the wood can warp. The best way to know for sure if a stave is dry is by weighing it. Keep weighing it until the weight stops decreasing for a week or two. Better to err on the side of letting it sit too long than trying to bend it while it's still green. Paint the ends right away, (I've started to use wax. I think it does a better job) and then you can do it again after you rough it out if you feel like you need to.
Great reply, thank you for the help.
have you ever tried black locust ?ive worked a green stave down to a bow blank over a three week process all along keeping it inside in airconditioning ive now sealed the blank with wood glue I think maybe what three months of drying inside .its a American flat bow design.
I haven't worked black locust yet but I just picked up a couple seasoned staves so I will try it soon. Make sure you get that tiller spot on. Black locust is not forgiving and will get compression fractures easily. It can make a great bow but it doesn't tolerate poor design or poor tiller.
I have made plenty of bows from black locust and honey locust. In my experience leave the bark on or if you take it off seal the back and ends quickly after cutting at least within a day from cutting. It dries quick. It’s one of the few woods that can burn quite well green . (Makes a real hot fire) but design considerations make a flat belly moderately wide inch and a half or better. The wood is real dense so it will make a more thin limbed bow and maintain larger draw weight when compared to hickory. Treat the wood like Osage and be careful with knots takes dry heat and boiling pretty well without fear of checking. all and all great bow wood.
thankyou very much for the info. I now have three black locust and three dogwood staves going at the same time I am working these from green wood that was cut in MAY of this year. Each time I work them I seal them back up with titebond wood glue and leave a few places where moisture can escape they are drying quite nicely inside in the aircondition with no checking and very little reflex or deflex.
In my experience locust has two states while it is still considered green it is very stringy wood lots of fibers bends easy and is more difficult to cut through but once the fibers dry out to about 12-15 percent moisture content the wood is a joy to work with. When backing the wood you will understand. My advice is leave your best stave till last and let it season work with the lesser staves make a bow and understand the wood. It took me making and breaking at least 6 locust bows before I understood what the wood was telling me.
@@sethbasler9777 My advise is go slow don't be in a hurry all the time I broke a bow is when I got in a hurry.
I got a hackberry stave (celtis australis) and I wonder how to work with its knots, can't find much about that wood bowmaking.
Do you know anything that can help?
I've never used it but I hear hackberry is a good bow wood. I'd avoid knots if you can. Shouldn't be too hard to find straight clean hackberry from what I've seen. Keep it wide and flat and consider heat tempering the belly
What is the best way to dry Elm? I take the bark off, seal the ends and cut the stave in half but it always twists?
So can i start working and just roughing it up while it's fresh, and the only proceed when the stave is dry?
and then would it not be faster to dry?
You can rough it out before it is dry and it will definitely speed up the drying process. I'd wait a few weeks before you rough it out so it can shed some of the initial water and stabilize a little. the wood can warp sometimes if it's too wet. If you want a 2" wide bow I would rough it out to slightly wider than 2" for the whole length. you can taper it once it's dry. This will also help prevent warping. If you get an accurate scale you can measure the weight of the stave regularly. When it stops losing weight for a week or two then the wood is as dry as it's going to get in your climate.
Thanks alot, would the bow perform best if made 2" wide when made out of elm ? or is there no specific sweet spot?
@@valdemar621 = The wood type chooses the width.
Good wood makes skinny bows.
Bad wood equals good wood only if its wider,.....if you make bad wood skinny the belly chush's and crystalize's.
But made wider will shoot as well as good woods.
Elm is great wood,.... you just start widdling.
Locust is the other osage and its straighter eastern Indians used it to make like a 1 inch wide bow I believe.
But I'd go wider.
The Bowyers bible gives you optimum widths for most woods.
I personally like all bows except new one's,......I prefer chinese copies of 80's bow's.
Has anyone tried to use Buckthorn? Not able to find much info on it. I am a 1st time Bowyer. and so far I am 0 and 3. I did get 8 shots from my 2nd attempt with Buck thorn. I have broken 2 buckthorn staves, and 1 hickory board bow. Any help or advice would be gratefully appreciated.
On green wood do you recommend securing it while it drys to keep it from twisting or bending.
steve ricci you can. Some people do. I haven't ever found it necessary. If you rough out a really green stave to near bow dimensions it could go squirrely on you and you might consider strapping it down. I don't rough out really green wood. I wait until it is further along in the drying process.
Swiftwood Bows
That's what i wanted to do is let it dry first then start to go to work. I figured it might warp some though
steve ricci what kind of wood are you working with, is the stave fairly straight?
Swiftwood Bows
Hickory with no twist and almost %100. straight,
steve ricci seal the ends, stick it somewhere dry and don't worry about it. You're not going to get any trouble from a stave like that
Why ashwood is not there? Is it not good for bow making
It can be. A lot of people use it. I'm not a huge fan of it based on my limited experience. It can definitely make a bow though. Treat it like other white woods, wide, flat and long.
How’s white ash for making bow staves?
Ash can make a fine bow. It likes to be long and wide. I broke the last ash stave I tried but others have had good success with it.
Did I hear that right? THAT is the first bow you ever made? I think you are lying lol.
Dawesome21 Ha, yeah. that's my first one. :) I had Gordon Ferlitsch and John Strunk to help me tiller it. pretty sure it wouldn't have turned out that nice if I was on my own. I owe a lot to the people who have guided me along the way.
Sorry, what was that again? Who? When?
Sorry. I realize the audio sucks. It was one of my first videos and I clearly had some things to learn on the videography side. For now you can turn on the captions. I plan to redo this video in a more audible fashion.
Great info in your video. Makes being a newbie in bow making a little easier.
I have a ton of Black Locust trees on my land. Is this good for bows? are they better with reflex or compression?
Black locust makes a great bow. You can do straight limbed or recurve with it. It struggles a bit in compression do make it wide and flat. Make sure the tiller is really good or you can end up with compression fractures. It's a good teacher because it demanded perfection
I've been trying to make bl bow and it's better in tension than compression. I've heard trapping the back(meaning thinner back of bow and wider belly. Trapizoidal shape) can help. Also heat treating the belly.