Can Russian Shahed-136 Kamikaze Drone Swarm Beat NATO Defense Network? (WarGames 87) | DCS
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- Опубліковано 8 тра 2024
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#WarGames #GRWarGames #Russia #Drones #Ukraine #Stinger #DCSQuestioned #GR #DCSWorld #Aviation #AviationGaming #FlightSimulators #Military - Ігри
Next iteration- Drones face a fleet of of Cessna 152's armed with a redneck equipped with a 12 gauge shotgun and a 6 pack.
That's the American Civil War 2 expansion pack.
Now this.. this I would watch
I was here to suggest something of this sort, maybe something like a Fairchild AU-23 Peacemaker(Pilatus PC-6 Porter, with a door gatling gun used in vietnam era) or similar to USCG MH68 "Stingray" (anti-motorboat gunships) but on a less "conspicuous" aircraft(even some ultralights are fast enough)
or maybe an armed trainer like for example SF-260.
@@matteohetzy7599Your suggestions are certainly good but in defense of my original proposal I'd like to make a rebuttal with the following few points:
-There's lots of C150/152's available right now on Trade-A-Plane for *very* reasonable prices. The same can not be said for Pilutus Porters or SF260's :(.
Don't ask how much either :O
-If you can't find enough C150's you can upgrade to a C170/172, a bit more money but if you knock out the back windows with a BFH you can now upgrade to 3 rednecks tripling your firepower. :D
-The next logical step would be the 180/183's where you still have increased lethality but now have extra lift capacity for more beer :)
Anyone can fly these things- even Denys D. The only real training required would be introducing the rednecks to the use of seatbelts. ;/
Thoughts?
@@howardeisenhauer1391 (sorry for the late reply) Living and working with Rednecks, I'd say the biggest challenge will be mod'ing the pilot-UI to operate like a 12-horse Johnson outboard... or a 3-wheel ATV.
The drones are likely too small for the bullet collision meshes to contact. Any 'tick based' simulation has this problem - the projectiles can teleport past the target even when it would be a RL hit.
When Nerd³ tried in KSP to collide 2 things on opposit orbits. They went straight through each other. But the speed involved was somewhat (ironic understatement) higher.I feel like a military simulator should be able to make bullets hit things.
Technically it shouldn't be a collision issue. X seconds or Y meters after firing the rounds should explode. And that point it's a probability calculation to see if the explosion is close enough to damage a drone - same as with a missile.
Assuming they're modelling the Gepards correctly.
@@anticarrrot Gepards rounds have zero explosives inside. It uses a frangible tungsten rod as a discarding sabot.
My prediction is that the small drones are not setting off the 35mm shells in game?
@@LMarlon nah, they have HE. New systems like the MANTIS do work kinematically (with spreading metall stuff)
The tiny pilots parachuting down 😭😭🤣🤣 that was actually a really exciting battle lol
Turns out that they weren't drones after all. The Iranians are scamming us.
As a vegan electric motorbikerist your choice of victim is horrific. Otherwise this humanoid enjoyed the video.
😂😂
As a meatan vp110 motorbiker I thought his choice of victim was beautiful. Otherwise this VALUED humanoid enjoyed the video.
actually gepard, shilka and other old AA artillery systems showed themselves pretty well in shooting down these drones
Their ammo also shatters before impact in reality. Seems to not work in the game.
gepards never met drones.
@@Di3Leberwurst but in reality they don't have lot of munitions only a 300 rounds and the other problem and the problem of all AA GUNS is only locking on one target so if you have alot of target you will miss them and get away
@@Zpmc69 Gepards are in Ukraine and have encountered Shaheed drones, that's what the commenter was referring to, not a prior conflict.
@@Di3Leberwurst Gepard uses FAPDS Ammo (Frangible Armour Piercing Discarding Sabot) it only shatters in the target after impact.
I just want to say, you guys are awesome! I appreciate all your hard work/ long nights to bring us these awesome scenarios. Best DCS channel on YT!
Your Gepards are using the wrong ammo, and your drones appear to be immune to bullets and fragments.
Gepards ammo only fragments inside its target, after it hit.
@@LMarlon
Maybe in DCS but IRL they do have proximity fuse ammo available. In Ukraine they are shooting short 6 shots bursts as a tactic because that's enough for a drone.
@@Suojeluninja Does Gepard not use timer based ammo?
During target practice AA gunners in Gepards use drone targets basically same size and speed as a Shahed. It will most definetly shoot it down.
Ukraine military also has been very positive about the Gepards effectiveness against the drones. Same for Stinger missiles, IIRC.
This is for sure some kind of bug.
The drones are probably too small for DCS hit registration.
@@termitreter6545 stingers didn't work against them they don't have enough ir signature
The issue is now that these kinds of ammunition that the gepards use is not readily available in many circumstances, meanwhile, the geran-2's are widespread (although the true number is classified).
@@samsniper2000 On what basis do you say that? Eg the curent stock of stingers by the US army was specifically upgraded to work more effectively against drones.
The time invested in making this video is definitely appreciated by the lot of us! Thanks boys! (and ladies!)
absolutely! thank you very much grim reapers! enjoyed it greatly. very timely stuff.
Hmmm, Gepard should've been the most effective, but gosh, something seems off.
I think im more interested about those cow powered motorbikes rather than the actual defense CAP, they seem promising...
It makes effective and eco-friendly use of methane so It has to be good, right?
Horse-power is out of date.
I wonder what Cap smokes to be able to think this stuff up? 'Cos I want some ..............😁
Cuts to austin powers radar operator "sir, we have a swarm of those drones!" - "what type of drones luietenant?" - "Well sir, they look like a massive swarm of..."
Cuts to a monestary classroom "Dongs! yes brother Stevens thats indeed the sound the church bells make"
I think those guns would have annihilated the drones by themselves and there seems to be something up with the bullets not connecting. I saw at least two bullets hit your drone but it did nothing.
I don't believe that the German supplied Geppard's fire AHEAD ammunition but the Shahad Drone is quite large.
even if the gepard could not track them with it´s radar you can use backup optical mode with thermal vision to assign targets for the system
The rounds that were being fired are more than likely not proximity fused. If the guns were firing proximity fused rounds it would be a different story. A radar-directed 40 mm Bofors firing proximity fused projectiles would be more effective.
@@rogerpennel1798 True Gepard does not fire airburst ammo, but in real life its more than capable to hit targets of this size with its FAPDS rounds. The Drones for target practice in the Bundeswehr were roughtly the same size, there were quite a few tests against drones before Jordan brought its Gepards.
@@LMarlon -Yes, training drones are similar in size and performance so the poor performance in this simulation is questionable.
Ive always been obsessed with the ejection process, so I very much liked all the "lil" people ejecting lol.
"ejecting "lil" people" Well that's EXACTLY how we all come into being 🤣🤣🤣🤣
That was a very peaceful flight for the most part, I thought it was quite nice
Cap : "We've had a lot of trouble with the Orcas' flight model . . . "
Yes, indeed. I think we've all had that difficulty.
I enjoyed your channel a lot before but I really love the direction your channel has been taking recently. Well done guys!
The issue with the Gepard may be the drones hitboxes being so small that their is a nominal 'centre of mass' that the guns are aimed at but it doesnt correspond with the collision box so the bullets are essentially aimed a meter behind the drone and because they are never on target for the hit box no hits will ever be registered, this doesnt effect the missiles which are doing volumetric splash damage.
I was thinking the same thing, minus the correct terminology as I don't encounter much volumetric splash damage as a web developer :-)
As founder of The Official Simba Fan Club I also proudly identify as a USAF veteran. God bless you Simba, I know your job and it's difficult. Thank you for taking time out to participate on the channel with your cheeky sense of humor!
“Popping the Canopy” in a Drone - Hysterical 😂
The Shahed drone as far as im aware is not operator controlled with a camera , you enter the co-ordinates and it flies itself there.
You program that then...
The Geran-2 is operator controlled.
@@haythemsandel8303 which is not a Kamakazi drone, isn’t it an obs drone?
This was an absolute spectacle to sit back and watch, thank you
drone damage model might not be setup for gun damage.....similar to the su57 issue
Those UAVs with the Austrian engines did a good job. lol
German engine modo 220 china produce iran buy
Is that a safety feature for the drones to parachute the CPU out to be used in the next attack :) Great video :)
This video is a work of art! Watching the swarm fly was amazing. Well done - from a "Valued human." :)
Interesting trivia for those who have wondered: the name Shahed is so apt because the word in Farsi (and Urdu/ Hindi: 'shaheed') literally means martyr.
When the cows said "rubber up", I bet there were some disappointed bulls in that field!
Hilarious stuff Cap. We're missing the bananas for the scale of the little human drone pilots. :)
Also, amazingly you managed to recreate a massive WWII day-time bomber run featuring mini-B17 kamikaze drones attacking Nazi cows? Somehow, that is an accurate sentence!
Me at 1:40 😲. So that's how it was done. I kind of figured the footage of a manpad shooting down a cruise missile was fake until now. Just couldn't imagine how you could be so perfectly in the right place at the right time AND facing the right direction.
Those 35mm shells the Gephard shoots are proximity fused, the drone would likely not give a big enough return to trigger the air burst.
But, I have had proximity fuzed 2.75” rockets explode in flocks of birds!
Expensive response for sure!
shahed drones are upgraded in Russia with addition of one anti radiation seeker and one glonass transponder which is a Russian alternative of GPS is used to guide towards target. Now, you don't have any TV camera or else because of which you can make it cheap as much as 15,000-20,000 dollars per drone. Now, coordinates can be changed mid flight where they can use a longer but safer route to reach the target also it slowed down a bit because slower targets are less visible in the radar. One thing is Russia actually wants Ukraine to use manpads which cost 70,000 dollars to 110,000 dollars for igla and stinger or even air defense missiles which cost minimum 200,000 dollars to more than a million. German iris-t costed 930,000 dollars in 2019 and now currently the inflation in Europe has rose so much that these iris-t would be easily over a million dollars each. The more Russia sends drones the more Ukraine uses it and will exhaust it soon because US and Europe don't have huge production like soviet air defense missile facilities that Russia has including huge stocks. But, still Russia will face problems in keeping up with.
That's the question Ukraine needs to ask - and spending the money to protect seems to be worth it whilst Russians seem to think that 12K drones are cheaper than aircraft - with what has been released on these drones they are basic level, powered by a moped motor and would need to be used on mass to hit a target
The defence calculation is not what the drone costs, but what the target that it would otherwise hit costs. $100,000 missile to defend a $50 million power plant is a bargain.
@@chrisp.2544 But so far we have only seen the drones used against civilian targets and wonder if this is a plan to draw defensive resources away from other areas
NATO is basically giving away their stockpiles of old surprisingly supurior weapons to Ukraine. They also have a IRL test of experimental systems. Ukraine has no budget issues considering their allies.
@@TheStiggggg Sad Vlad probably got told it would only take 4 weeks at the most
0:48 awesome lore :D
I can already see the fanfiction
There is a video of at least one Gepard engaging the Shahed drones from a couple of days ago on reddit.
The biggest question is if Ukraine is being supplied with the airburst rounds. Yeah if one of those 35mm hit then it’ll blow the drone out the air but if they miss by 1mm then nothing also how effective would those air bust fuses be against a small piece of fiber glass
Ukraine does certainly not use airburst with Gepard. Germany used FAPDS when Gepard went out of service and you would have to rebuild the Vo Velocity sensor for any other ammuniton.
If they miss by 1mm, then the air pressure difference from the speeding bullet passing by would tear bits off the drone, and down it.
@@totalnerd5674 lmao yeah and I bet you believe the old myth of a fifty cal passing by you will rip your arm off
@@jacobc722 No but it can rip your eyes out and turn your skull into a balloon. In fact there is video of this happening to a deer.
ua-cam.com/video/6P3uwl5HzzQ/v-deo.html
This video was really great I really enjoyed the simulation of the drone strikes.
One thing I've always wondered, and it's probably impossible to model, is whether a simple Mach shockwave could take drones out of the sky. A flyby at Mach 1 and you wouldn't need to fire a shot.
Bad idea, Ukraine already lost one plane because it impacted debris from a drone shoot down. It's just to dangerous to fly near a small target like that.
I haven't laughed this hard in a LONG time.
11:50 I believe the Shahed-136 is GPS+INS guided and for accurate terminal guidance it relies on a 3rd guy to recon and talks to the Operators to update the Data.
Have you guys considered using really old AA systems like 88 flak guns and 40mm Bofors guns? A big box barrage like the Germans and USN used in WW2 should work just fine sometimes older solutions work for modern problems.
You need to program the drones with GR take off programming the destruction would be immeasurable and unstoppable
That puts the new meaning into COW-a-sock-ie (Kawasaki). Anyway keep up the great work. Love every video you put out CAP and GR!!!!
Shoot down a $10,000 drone with a $400,000 missile. To do so is to lose the war.
These drones do not have cameras. The operator can only sat a course using the GLONAS system and program maneuvers during the flight. Another option is guidance on the radiation of the radar to combat ground-based air defense.
And yes, the Gepard should be several times more effective against these drones.
From the videos I see online, the shahed is usually launched from launch racks of 16 and they don't launch from run ways. Whilst inaccurate, I suppose simulating those is difficult so hats off to you.
I loved the suicide drone AI expressing a high degree of self preservation and staying the heck away from the target!
Excellent work on the Shahed modelling. I was a little worried you might leave out the lower RCS or at least the very low thermal signature, but you seem to have accounted for all of it.
You might consider going a little further, and putting out a request for actual thermal imaging of these drones while in flight, ideally with detailed information on the sensor that collected the imaging, so you can extrapolate what colors correspond with what temperatures the drone was emitting. The distance from the sensor to the drone when the images were made would also be useful, and ambient atmospheric, temperature and visibility conditions.
In a future simulation, however, I would still like to see a drone-based anti-drone air defense network. Anything on the ground is going to be too vulnerable and is not going to have the broad field of view and high mobility I think you would need to defend against these other, relatively low observable, low flying, but also slow drones. If you can use an AWACS to provide targeting data for small, cheap drones with stingers and somewhat more expensive drones with AIM-9xs (against the larger cruise missiles), with passive thermal and ELINT sensors on the anti-drone drones, I think that would make for both a more effective and a more survivable air defense system. The real challenge is replacing the stinger, on short notice, with something smaller, cheaper and built for purpose.
If you can model existing systems, that aren't in the game, like the Shahed, does that mean you could actually invent a new weapons system, and try it out? I'll email you what I have in mind. Rather than post that simulation on UA-cam, however, you might consider sending it to a UK Defense firm. Maybe they'll buy it from you?
Oh, right, it's Russian software, guess we can't develop new weapons systems on it...
Also, did you see the laser Rheinmetall is trying out for anti-drone aerial defense aboard one of the German air defense frigates?
In the future, these air defense drones might also have a 10kw chemical laser, with 30 shots or so and a 5km range, with it being very cheap to re-charge the chemicals for the laser after the drone lands, compared with the cost of another missile. I'd suggest looking at the AGIL laser, for suggestions of how that might work, if it can be miniaturized with a smaller magazine and lower output.
When the Shahed Drone Swarm started taking off , am I the only one who had "The Flight of the Bumble Bee" playing in my head? LOL!
I heard Flight of the Valkyries, but at 45 speed instead of 33.
@@benrichey2593 🤣
Good show Cap & friends!
The AI sneezed, and they all popped up!! 😄
This is one reason the USN is developing ship-based tactical lasers-as long as you have ample electrical power you have essentially unlimited ammunition. The problem with CWIS gun-based systems is ammunition capacity.
"Words and stuff an ting..". It's been awhile since I heard ting Capt.
One minute in and I'm already dying
😭😭😭
"We have cow-powered motorbikes"...
"Some are two cow-power, some are one cow-power"...
"Im sure that all makes sense"
This is why we love you Cap😅
It is one thing trying to hit an oncoming missile and it is another trying to hit an oncoming missile that can dodge your strike en route to its target.
I mean, the Gepards should be using ATOM or AHEAD, fragmentation airburst rounds with proximity fuzes. Really didn't seem like that was the case here, or at least that it was massively broken.
do they actually have air burst ammunition? I think they don't but I could be wrong.
Gepard uses FAPDS, they only shatter after impact, there is no airburst effect.
That’s just a lie. You can’t fit a smart fuse in a 25mm round. It would literally be mere grams < 10g of explosive less then a grenade which a plane or helicopter would shrug off.
Even if they were.
Just like a fibreglass minesweeper there’s no magnetic effect to set off the smallest kinds of proximity fuze.
So basically you just made some bullshit up to make the gepard sound like a super weapon.
When it fires frangible darts. Not Proximity fused ammunition
@@jugganaut33 LOL what are you talking about, Geprad uses 35mm and it came with a mix of HEI-T and SAPHEI-T.
It was upgraded to FAPDS later because you can spit those out at 1400m/s compared to the 1150m/s of the HEI increasing its effective range from 3.5km to 6km.
Secondly you wouldnt use a proximity fuse, you would use a programable timed fuse together with the velocity sensor on the gun muzzle.
@@LMarlon now are those shells being used in ukraine ?
I am writing you from the "Digital Cow Preservation Foundation"... LOL Great demo, Reapers. This is a bit scary. Enough drones would equal some boom-boom.
🎵"Tiny, happy People falling.
--- Tiny happy People falling !"🎵
Those damn cow powered motorbikes!
“Resiliency day” lol
so use those drones to take out the first line of SAM'S which will reduce defense effect to near nil for future attacks.
also would be interesting to know cost of drone attack vs cost of munitions spent to counter the drone attack.
drones in my opinion are extremely cost effective.
imagine a swarm of 10000 of these things heading at you in a swarm spread apart everywhere across the sky making them hard to airburst effectively
Looks like some sci-fi movies
A ToT with the drones and missiles likely to take out the radars fairly easily and cost effectively for the newly supplied systems to that place that we can't talk about. Then more conventional airstrikes.....it's time for peace talks before winter really kicks in.
From a former "Duckhunter", these drones would be easily hit by a Stinger missile. They are actually close to the same size as one of the 2 types of targets Stinger gunners at a live fire exercise gets to shoot at, one is a BAT (ballistic aerial target) a rocket about the size of half a telephone pole or the RCMAT basically a big scale model of an SU-25 with about a 4 to 5 ft wingspan. The RCMAT's apparently they've have been updated in the last 20 years, here is a video showing an example. If you can see it, and range it, you can hit it. IR signal is not that important, it will just switch to Negative UV to target. Love the channel! Keep it up!
ua-cam.com/video/MrEEnPnqBfg/v-deo.html
I remember reading that in WW2 German flak (all calibres added together) expended 13,000 rounds for every aircraft shot down.
Guessing the lead on the guns doesn’t go low enough as it appeared they were shooting ahead of the drones.
Crazy stupid weird video Cap - I loved it!!
Are those the new Cowasakis I have "herd" about, lmao!
Now Remington will get a contract for bringing back Punt guns
You people need that defence system rhienmatell made.
I think its called sky guard.
It can shoot down missiles, drones and even artillery shells.
Maybe that would work?
I mean it looks cool that's all I care about.
Also thanks for making my beef dinner. :)
Don't need GPS or comms to fly the drone. Simple flight plan and use a 1980s gyro based Inertial Navigation system to provide navigation info to the flight control computer and AP. Once the onboard INS establishes its current location of the drone the onboard INS determines it flying and ground track to the predetermined lat/long.
The systems are inexpensive ($250k) and ECM would not be able to stop the signals, because the Avionics is all internal to the drone.
If you swarm a tgt, you don't have to be precise, just good enough to hamper operations; enough for more precise weapons to do other things in the area.
Oooooooh...look at all the crispy people...🎶
Ahem - I believe those are CalfTracks sir
Awesome battle! :D That swarm drone attack is nuts. It is crazy strong. When the next Carrier Strike Group battle coming out with the new LARSM Missiles in the USA side? Is it possible to do a new USA and UK vs Chinese and Russian Carrier Strike Group Battle? Inclduing the LARSM in the USA side, and the Chinese super strong YJ-12, the new Russian Cruiser. Basically with all those new assets and missiles etc.? :D That would be interesting. Last time you did this battle it was long long time ago.
Problems with the orca flight model????🤔
Hmmmm, would that problem be, gravity? 😏😁😂🤣
They are super simple and only fly to the target provided, and do not have any sort of camera uplink for them to be flown.
Hopefully there's another Shahed swarm mission with your new money tracker, it'd be interesting to see cost of defence vs cost of attack
GR is spoiling us with Roast Beef on a Sunday...yum.
Fun fact: that pitch oscillation you're talking about is technically termed a "phugoid oscillation." It was named by a guy who wanted to use a fancy word for "flying," but he picked the wrong one. Instead of the "airborne movement" sense of the word "flying," "phugoid" is related to the "avoiding capture" or "fleeing" sense of the word "flying." (You can sort of see how the word "phugoid" is related to the word "fugitive.") So...if you saw the term "phugoid oscillations" and you tried to figure out what it meant by looking up the word "phugoid," you'd be confused; but it is nevertheless the proper technical term for what you're experiencing.
"Their little mole crab eyes" 🤣
I found the entire video hilarious
Guns. I wonder how WWII AA guns, radar directed, mass flak in the sky, would do. Flak 88, 40mm Bofors, etc.
It would be the airforce to take a golf day
Question: if you launch a kamikaze drone swarm, precisely how many burgers can you make
My first thoughts after seeing the cow power 😂😂
Love it
I think the way to deal with drone swarms is air burst nukes. Or maybe EMP bursts. Lol
Gepards are have really good success in RL hitting those drones.
"The drone will always get through"
Sounds like Simba's resiliency day equals a mandatory fun day. ......RB
I wonder if Gespard munitions would air burst irl? Or do they work kinetically?
Need "shredder" missiles. The area of effect detonation. Similar to the iron domes. Explosive, fragmentation artillery shells with lighter metal to create "splinters" of lead/iron. Would be nice.
I think Simba was right about the guidance.
Obviously it would have to be a Convertible,
'cause flying your Robo-death-machine
BVLOS would so be against FAA regulations.
The shahed drones use GPS and INS (gyroscope) for navigation.
I wonder how effective 88's with Mark 53 fuses would do?
Seems like the AP rounds are all that is modeled for the gepard. Would be fascinating to see the programable timed fuses on the Oerlikon modeled properly. curious if the shilka's or even legacy zpu's fare better with thier much more rapid rate of fire.
But we had some problems with the flight model of the orca. A statement never said in human history until now.
Loved the video. Though I was debating on how the drones would fly over water at low altitude. It might help to have that info.
Theres one cow thats up...
BANG! (Cow explodes)
Oh,
how about that...
How about trying WWII flak fired into the swarm. That should take them out if the damage model is working.
50kg warhead ? damn thats ruthless
OMG 😱 🤔 Shahed 136
Did change the war game
Fight was gristly!