Get Around Fight First 40k | Competitive Leviathan | Warhammer 40k Battle Tactics
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- Опубліковано 11 вер 2024
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Get Around Fight First 40k | Competitive Leviathan | Warhammer 40k Battle Tactics
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Impressed by how deep your rules knowledge is to do this trick - though it does seem to skirt the real intention of the fights first ability. Pretty gamey! Hopefully a FAQ closes this loophole : ) Love the content.
I don't think its an unintentional loop hole - both the pile in and consolidation step indicate that you must end closest to the closest enemy model, with no mention of it needing to be already engaged. That, and the 'Remaining Combats' step even makes mention of 'units with the Fights First ability that were not eligible to fight at the start of the fight phase' - so it even refers to using this happening from a unit that didn't even charge that turn. (ie was piled in to during the remaining combats step)
Hmm - ok - that's a good point. I guess fights first units should stay away from other friendly units then to avoid this mechanic! It still seems to be a little too gamey for me - charging another unit with the sole intention of fighting a different one. I don't think that is in the spirit of the intended charge rules, but I'm still a newbie. I think that line in remaining combats is probably more intended for units that were consolidated into, rather than piled into at the start of the phase. But, it wouldn't be the first time far better players than me worked the rules to their strategic advantage : )
Yup these videos are to go over tactics of the game for the times as written. That is all.
@ReefEco in reality the fight first unit fan simply use heroic intervention if they're close, as they already have the fight first ability and don't need to charge but yeah
@@erroneoushyphenAbsolute nonsense. It purposefully and in several instances defines in the Charge rules that you CANNOT end in engagement range of a unit you didn’t charge. It also defines how you are SUPPOSED to initiate combat into multiple units. Someone would have to be an absolute asshole to see these multiple instances of defined rules and then purposefully circumvent them to try and cheat the intent of the rules.
Tactics like this are what get my mates calling me a cheater lmao
Hey, what do you expect looking up tactics from a channel called "40k Dirtbags" for playing with your mates
lol not cheating when its literally rules as written
@@40kDirtbags this is 40K. Sometimes RAW can contradict itself on another page. Some TO’s don’t care about RAW.
@@MikePhumanaut do you play at any GTS?
I love your content. No one where I play would clarify what i was doing wrong, but thanks to your videos I'm learning how to improve! Thanks so much! 😁
thanks so much for this comment
This will also come up when trying to deny the use of the counter offensive strat when more squads/units are involved. The trick in this videos situation can be countered by using the heroic intervention strat with the unit with fight first against abaddon. Still down 2 cp but can possibly save the entire combat, so save your cp.
you would not charge in then, its all situational.
Just me but I feel like this is less about how to get around Fight first and more about how to abuse charge rules. Just like with the Vehicles moving sideways so you don't have to pay for turning this is another in what I like to call "Feels Stupid" set of rules. However, if this is how GW want is run in tournaments then hey abuse the crap out of the rules in as many unintended ways as possible.
Either way, great stuff. Enjoying it as it's showing me all the dumb sides of the rules. Make me aware for what to watch out for. So, keep up the good work. Looking forward to more nonsense. 😀
Lol thanks
I completely agree that absolutely falls into the "Feels Stupid category", but tbf if melee wasnt so basic and diluted this edition then we wouldnt need people to munchkin their way through the rules like this. Also if they want to fix it, its as simple as adding a stipulation to fights first thats like "as soon as an enemy enters engagement range, this unit can fight".
@@Thiccygprob a better way would be to stipulate that a unit can not Pile in to a unit they didn't charge.
10th Ed fights first is absurd. Having a way to interact with your melee units is a good thing
If I did this with guys I play with I would be banned from the store, and rightly so.
i would find new friends
@@40kDirtbags if you pull this bs anywhere you will be banned from playing
@@petervansan1054 that means every tournament player in the world is now banned from the game. Dang it,
@@petervansan1054 I've literally pulled this shenanigan twice in two different game stores and my opponents were aware of the tactic. Seen it done on YT GT streams as well. 9th and 10th edition fight phases differ now.
So what your tournament story tells us is that sometimes Abaddon has a bad day too, lol.
Thank you for the tutorial man, that information is pretty darn important. Great video, as always; and GL on re-capturing the #1 GK spot again!
this year its CSM. next year might be gks again.
Thank you very much for this video. This also addressed my prior question from the multi DP list earlier in the month.
Very rules lawer, definitely getting FAQ'd if that catches on ha
theres alot of things that need to be faq. but this isnt one of them. there is only one way to get around it is use the rule from 9th edition where you cant attack a unit you didnt charge. but then that changes 10th edition combat.
Absolutely diabolical
Much appreciation for all the tactical videos coming out recently as LVO approaches. Hopefully I can use this info to make my fellow Grey Knights players proud out there.
come up and say hi if you see me there!
I learned something today!
I would love to see a video on complicated combats. I have a unit of 20 warriors, 2 cryptothralls, a cryptek, and overlord. I know that I’m messing up positioning and allocation of wounds to my disadvantage.
Nice tip. Not sharing it though, keeping it for myself 😂😂
Wouldnt this strategy fall apart if the opponent just does Heroic Intervention though?
As a warboss i give this two waaaghs up
hells yea
It is still risky, 2 cp for Heroic Intervention and abadon (350pts) is dead.
Exactly lol. But it's situational
Great trick! I'm sorry if you mention this later in the video (am at 8:44), but in the first scenario, does the unit with fight first get to activate later on, or are they skipped because they only fight in the "fight first step"? Given that they somehow survive lol
Yeah I was curious about this to? I assume because they are now active to fight they get to do so immediately after but I'd like some clarification.
if you read the fight first rule in the app, it continue with the next unit with fight first, since they are the defender they will then get to activate that fight first unit to fight before your next unit that charged in. but hopfully if you go into that fight first unit you kill it off the map.
That's the "Remaining Combats" part of the Fight Phase rules? Maybe I'm reading this wrong, but it only says that "all remaining eligible units fight", and doesn't really say that fights first applies. However, the defender would be able to choose which unit to activate first.
Or... do you feel I'm understanding this wrong?
@@nickrafuse984 you alternate, so the defender then chooses a unit, and his fight first unit would have to go next.
@@40kDirtbags Ahhhh interesting. I don't entirely understand why, but it does make sense. :)
So… after everyone at the tournament discusses what an absolute asshole a person would have to be to try this purposeful circumventing of the rules…
What happens then?
you are playing with the wrong people lol. this is how the game works.
That's doesn't happen 😂
So, regarding the first example, you get around the fight first bc the pile in happens after the fight first phase?
power sliding a rhino into fight first is fun to absorb hits and let your main dude get a swing in
yea alot of small things you can do in the fight phase.
but how do you explain it to the opponent whos going to say you cant do that and then throw a fit?
Show them the rules. Or have them show you that you can't.
That seems a complete dick move to be honest. Do we see it much at tournaments?
If there is a tactic to not die to a fight first unit, I would suggest that before saying, no charge into me so I can kill you. It's used at tourneys if you can make it happen. Like in the video
Thx for the " super dirty" trick, Mr. DB 💯
not dirty when its the actual rules of the game... :P
@@40kDirtbags loved it 👌🙏
My friend thanks for this kind of content, it is really what a beginner player like me needs to elevate his game.. I have one doubt though, can you explain exactly why fight first in the enemy unit does not activate after the pile in? Is it because units with fight first need to be charged in order to being able to activate that ability? I feel like I didn't quite understand it, and reading the fight first rule I don't see anything related to being charged or not, only tjat activates in the fight first step.. Thanks in advance, please keep spreading your knowledge, your channel is awesome!!
cant activate your unit if im already in mid activation of my unit. after my pile in unit is done, you can then activate your first first unit next if they are still alive.
Thx for the vid. Keep doing great stuff guys.
see ya next faq...
Thank you for sharing this.
Could you please add the rules references and their combination to these videos as pure proof of the concepts you're speaking about? Just a screenshot of those rules side by side highlighting the relevant information would be greatly helpful, it's puzzling trying to find specifics about how you're "avoiding" fight first.
cant post screen shots. look up fight first in the rules on the gw app.
The Lion is concerned
the -1 to wound still really good.
Thanks Derek.
Might have missed this in the video but If the opponent had cp for Heroic Intervention, wouldn’t that ruin this plan?
Correct lol.
As far as I can tell from the rules you get the charge bonus on the unit that you declare a charge against!
So if you happen to pile into a close enemy unit that you didnt declare a charge against your not going to get the charge bonus of fight first. Is this correct
Not correct. They funny very to activate before you.
So what I'm hearing is I shouldn't have other units near my Fights First unit.
that would help.
Some judges at tournaments will not allow you to do a pile-in like that. If you are lucky enough to get an opponent who can see RAW, then good. It’s wise to check the tournament FAQ or play by intent with your opponent and explain the situation.
those are judges that dont play the right way then.
why would they not allow it? its exactly rules as written, and within every metric of rules legality. No legitimate TO/judge could disallow it, and any that would probably wouldnt judge again.
@@40kDirtbags this is not right way, this is a stupid RAW way
@@petervansan1054" this is the way"
Can someone explain to me why the fight first unit wouldn't fight first despite the pile in shenanigans ? Abadon charged in and has charge bonus with fight first. The Eldar have fight first. Both fight first and the player whose turn it isn't chooses the first unit to fight, which would be his fight first eldar in the fight first phase.
How do you get around that now ?
cant activate the unit to proc fight first because they arent in combat yet.
@@40kDirtbags Okay, is it because you charge, and stay out of 1 inch, so they are not in engagement range, and can't activate through fight first. Then you activate your unit that charged and because the pile in move is part of your attack action they can't benefit from fight first anymore and you smash them. Did I get this tight ?
exactly@@skyeranger - they only become eligible after Abby and company pile in and whoop ass, and any survivors left are now Eligible to Fight, and basically function as a normal unit since they skipped their FF bonus moment
I’m not understanding how this is legal regardless of clever wording when it state clearly in the rules that if you”In both steps, a unit is eligible to fight if either or both of the following apply:
It is within Engagement Range of one or more enemy units.
It made a Charge move this turn.” So even after pile-in or consolidation phase, you then must select a target to fight which would activate fights first
@@joelharkort1424 before you pile in you choose which unit activates. If you charging unit isn't in combat with a flight first unit, you pile in first. If you pile into a unit that has fight first you still get to swing before then bc you are still in that units activation.
But this is your turn, so when it comes to the fight phase combat is resolved with players alternating units starting with with fights first starting with the defender. So not sure how this gets around it at all, the defending player will obviously go first and still get that unit to fight before the charging unit regardless of how they got into combat
@@Jo-fc9ur ok so let's see if this helps. I charge a unit that doesn't have fight first. Then I activate the unit bc I charged. I then pile into your unit that has fight first, but it won't proc because im in between my flight phase.
@@40kDirtbags that does indeed help. But can’t attacking units only allocate attacks to units that were declared as the target of their charge, regardless of who they have piled into? Wouldn’t this mean that in the fights first step you have now put your unit into combat with the enemy but your unit can’t select them to allocate attacks to, but your opponent will be able to select next and now attack your unit?
@@Jo-fc9ur that was 9th edition
@@40kDirtbags oh Jesus, that is right. What a loop hole! Apologies for questioning you
Another great vid, thanks for clarifying
Thanks broski
This is cheeky business
the best kind of business
Does this also work to keep an opponent from activating a fight first stratagem because they won’t be sure which unit to use it on, for example, unwavering sentinel.
correct.
using grey knights as eldar. traitors! lol this is interesting hahaha. btw what do you like more your gk or chaos?
Gks forever
This is now the way im dealing with FF thank you!
You are welcome
Vanguard tactics stay winning
I really don’t understand why this is allowed when you didn’t declare a charge into the other unit
In 10th ed, you are now allowed to fight unit's you didn't charge. In 9th you couldn't do this.
I read the rules and yes this is something that seems a grey area but legal
Don't know about that. I thought the rules say that you get the charge bonus of fight first on the unit you declare a charge against.
just a bit scummy tho isnt it
scummy, or using the rules to your advantage? who knows
yeah, i agree theres a thing called playing with intention and this, while legal is removing the fun lmao, fair play in a gt tho
@@Slydamiser exactly
@@Slydamiserwell in competitive scenarios you aren’t really playing for fun, you’re more focused on being a rules lawyer and taking any advantage possible. Yeah it may seem a bit brutish or sucky for your opponent. But thats what competitive is, and it’s also just great general knowledge. Ofcourse when in friendly matches or casual play its less of a worry or something you dont need to have in mind but doesn’t hurt to learn.
How is this any different from, say, knowing how to orbit in 9th? If you don't like learning fight phase tech you don't have to, but accusing someone who is playing to the rules as they're written, of being scummy, is completely asinine
So what part about this gets around fights first? Is it because you pile in and then fight? Because if the timing for activating FF is when the unit is activated in the beginning of fight phase, they wouldn’t get the trigger at the start of the phase because they weren’t in engagement range?
Exactly
That sounds a little convoluted…. I’ll see how it goes at a local GT.
Honestly, I think this will only work if you have a GT manager that is kinda spineless… I get the pile in on other units, but I don’t think every GT will allow a unit that is being attacked in the fight phase with FF to not FF
@@von2320 Not really. It's only contentious if you think of pile in and making attacks as different phases. They're not. When a unit is selected to activate in the fight phase they make their pile in moves, attacks, and then consolidation moves, all as part of that activation. The fights first rule would then kick in to determine who activates next.
Correct me if im wrong
Cant any unit pile in as long as its within 3"
Even If it wasn't charged or not currently in combat...
The rule as I read it says
Units not in base to base and within 3" may pile in
Can't activate unless you are in combat.
@@40kDirtbags where does it say that?
@@Schaden36from the 40K app, Fight Phase introduction: in both steps (of the fight phase), a unit is eligible to fight if either or both of the following apply
• it is within engagement range of one or more enemy units
• it made a charge move this turn
Fight means a unit can: pile in, make melee attacks, consolidate
This is my interpretation: The fights first unit that wasn’t charged directly can’t activate because no enemy models are within engagement range 1”of it at the end of the charge phase. Since it can’t activate, it can’t pile in, make attacks and consolidate; it moves to the “Remaining Combatants” part of the fight phase if it ends up being piled into. Abaddon’s unit can activate because it made a charge move and also happens to be in engagement range of the the other unit. Once Abaddon’s unit piles in, it can make melee attacks. Fights First doesn’t interrupt the fight phase of a unit already activated, it changes the order of who gets to activate first.
The rules for Pile In, according to the app, doesn’t specify that a model has to pile into the unit that was charged, just that it has to end this move within engagement range and in unit coherency. A model piling in also has to end closer to the closest enemy model, doesn’t state that it has to be the unit that was charged.
It may seem “gamey” and all that but that’s how the rules are written. there exists the Heroic Intervention stratagem to get around this situation though.
@@petemalysewich6845 Thank you for replying friend
Sorry it seems to me like you walked around my question.
didn't ask about Fight first..?
I like this -
• it is within engagement range of one or more enemy units
• it made a charge move this turn
still doesnt really answer the question tho
im guessing you're saying that pile in cant happen unless its eligible to fight?
Im willing to accept that however
on the app it says
- can move up to 3" if not in base to base , pile in is possible if unit ends move within engagement range and unit stays in coherency. if these conditions are not met you can not pile in. -
so the question is if im not in combat im 2" away can I pile in? If not why when all conditions where met and no rules state otherwise?
@@Schaden36 yeah, so the only units that can activate for the fight phase are those that charged or those that are within engagement range at the end of the charge phase; and engagement range being within 1” of an enemy unit.
Your unit that’s 2 inches away, assuming they didn’t charge can’t activate because they are not in engagement range of an enemy unit, even if they have fight first. The only way for them to activate is if they used the Heroic Intervention strat in the charge phase.
Once a unit is activated, it can pile in up to 3 inches, but it doesn’t have to pile into the unit that was charged, it only has to end closer to it, it can still attack another unit if it satisfies the previous point.
Doesn’t Abbadon have fight first himself? Then technically since he is the charging unit, he would fight first anyway as both fight first abilities cancel out. Admittedly I have not reviewed his rules since 10th.
He does not. And no the defender with fight first would fight before your charge target
@@40kDirtbagsthe Despoiler lost his fight first from 9th. Good tip👏🏾
@@hobbybro3902even if your unit has fights first, the defender with fights first always goes first. The Fights First ability is only useful as the charge target. Charging gives you Fights first, but the defender activates Fights First units first.
@@th0rg0d my new strategy will be to shot dead any fight first units, so when I get around to charging it’s something I don’t have to worry about. I would have to have this fights first avoidance explanation already written out to just hand to my opponent, to avoid an argument.
Wouldn’t you also have to pile in 3 meaning you could have based the majority of the charged unit?
you have to stay in coherency. so pile in abby first, then anyone else as long as you stay in coherency. you cant leave it on purpose so its legal.
Yeah but every model that is able to go base to base has to make base to base contact. You had 3 models that could have done that.
Unless you need to stay in coherency. You can't purposely move your models out of coherency
@@40kDirtbags I understand that, but you also moved models not technically towards the unit selected to be charged. The rule states each model makes a charge move less than or equal to the charge roll, and (must) move into base to base contact if able to. Three of your models were well within that scope of the rule and you moved two diagonally towards both units instead of the selected unit which goes against the (if each model has the ability to make base to base then it must do so.
Finally!
it was up on patreon.com for about a week already lol
@@40kDirtbags Yeah but I'm poor as fuck! I love these more rules oriented videos though, little things like this really help new players become drastically better at the game.
so im pretty new to the game, and im finding this confusing, could anyone tell me in what order all those phases are resolved exactly? i play orks and understanding this would be very useful in my games. I tought that pile in is done after an enemy unit was either destroyed or at the start of the fight phase. I want to be able to explain this if someone calls bullshit when i play against them.
The easiest is to search up pile in on the 40k app
After a unit is destroyed is the consolidation move
look over the core rules you can download for free on the warhammer website. study those as much as you can. its charge, pile in, then consolidate.
@@40kDirtbagscharge, pile in, Fight, then consolidate
❤
A thoroughly silly system?
you cannot make attacks against units you didn't charge
That is true for 9th ed, But 10th ed changed this.
this is exactly why i make these videos because people arent using the correct rules while playing 10th.
@@xzyled5684 i see.. my bad.
@@40kDirtbags thanks for the video.. reminds me to be extra careful on placing my models
The amount of salty people in these comments outraged at you for using the rules as theyre written is insane.
We drink salty tears to get ready for our next GT