Please share this video if you enjoyed it we took a bit of a risk and broke our usual format to make this. If you really enjoyed it please share it because we put a lot of work into it, it may not seem it but we did historical price comparisons, all sorts of nonsense research and of course Sunny's amazing visuals. So if you shared this video we thank you from the bottom of our heart
I dont now why but just a minute ago i got from UA-cam a notification of youre poll, and only because of that and the link in it is that i know of this video. UA-cam is crazy because it happens to more channels , but i wil turn the bell of and back on again and hope that solved the notification problem. And now time to watch the interesting video
yes we had something like 300 views when we made the poll but now video is far beyond that... so yeah UA-cam being UA-cam but we had noticed a downward trend with views on our videos so that is why we were like... we need to figure this out
It’s been a comedy watching GW channels one by one sour on GW’s pricing model. Some like Tabletop Minions leave the warhammer sphere for the greater wargaming market, bringing attention to indie stuff like Stargrave, 5 Parsecs, and Forbidden Psalm, which allow them to use their existing warhammer collections in their own scenarios. Others attempt to pivot to less well loved but still popular model lines like Battletech or Star Wars Legion. Still others venture to 3D printing, as trolling through stl libraries is cheaper. Finally there are those who attempt to power through regardless, making guides for eBay hunting and mathing out cheaper factions. Regardless, being the premium choice is GW’s big enemy. Greed will kill them eventually.
So, I have to say it sad to hear the way you put it because, we actually want GW to succeed but... You're not wrong about the pricing. I think other than the pricing GW is doing a lot of good things. I think they are doing bad things but so does everyone else that is a company, I just think the good would probably out way the bad if it wasn't for their pricing - Cal
GW does a bit too much wrong than right currently. Of course they are why we have the mini Wargaming hobby part of the general hobby. They are in a tough position because of 3d printing, & Cal admitted recently he just printed a proxy for a GW model he found too expensive. The true barrier is the fortune you need to buy an army. Also GW stores won't let you play in the store.
I maintain that one or two more decent price hikes will shatter the momentum GW has built in the post-Kirby era. One the price for your basic infantry kit hits about the $90-$100 (USD/CAD), I think we'll see a rapid collapse of GW's market. It's worth noting that we're already dangerous close to that point as is. The average baseline infantry kit in 40k or AoS runs you anywhere from $60-$80, with the higher end being newer kits. TOW is a harder beast to factor into this since it's so new and its prices are, wild, to say the least.
I think that the already existing hobby and gaming community is toxic too, and has some kind of responsibility. Let's say GW release a hero quest-like game, based on 40k, with 1-piece SM miniatures, similar to today's models. And let's say the price is around 100 dollars. How many scalpers do you think will buy large numbers of this box?
I know exactly what you are saying but with what we were suggesting we were saying like it is so mass produced, that it is in toystores and department stores as well, so it wouldn't matter if someone tried to 'scalp' it, because there would simply be too much of it out there... But perhaps we didn't communicate that as well as we could have - Cal
When i was at my LGS and I seen a single sprue in a tiny box costing well over $40 for 1 model, and I see a gundam, about 20 yards away also for a bit over $40 in a much larger box, well designed packaging, way more sprues overall, different colors so no need to paint it, and it is posable. I dont buy 40k stuff because I cant justify spending so much for a model that I could 3D print myself for, what $10 for a whole squad or even a respectable sized army and a fraction of a bottle of resin.
The stuff is sold out because they are generating false scarcity to drive up prices. I mean you think a multi billion dollar company can’t print models faster than the average Joe with an elegoo. Seems fishy
I actually know why that is. It's because of the moulds lost in China when the decided to stop model manufacturing over there. So yeah actually not their fault. Just non sense over lost moulds
@@WhatareyouPaintingnow Is this true? I always thought GW was doing their manufacturing in the UK. At least they state in their website that they do their manufacturing in Nottingham.
I am completely new to warhammer. I have 0 nostalgia for the series and I’m in my 20s. I mainly play kill team and can say a significant amount of the people I play KT with are brand new to the franchise. Teens, other dudes my age, old heads, just about everybody. I was introduced to the series from Darktide
I think Killteam is one of their best ideas, I have a LOT of commissions for kill team like that is the majority of my business at the moment. We did mention about how video games can convert people but we believe its reliant on a lot of hope rather than actually directly getting people into the hobby - Cal
@@WhatareyouPaintingnow I have been building gundam model kits for quite some time so the transition was very smooth for me. The gaming side was a harder entry point for me than the hobby side which seems to make me an oddity among newer players so I might just be a weird case haha. Watching some warhammer creators build gundam models was one of the first times I was introduced to the hobby
I'm new to the hobby, I can relate with the point that the hobby isn't that accessible or affordable to people who are looking to enter. I'm a young adult with not that much income and it's kinda hard trying to get another box without thinking about it. I hope something comes up wherein Warhammer appeals or becomes accessible to younger audiences. I Love the hobby but it's hard to keep up 😅
not to mention other table top wargames are more fun for players than 40K, OPR is easier and not as one sided as 40k where, if you go first and have a good shooting phase you win!
A lot of people have praise for One Page Rules but I feel like most of them are former converts of Games-Workshop rather than people recruiting their own people - Cal
I'm going to argue that Warhammer Underworlds is perfectly functional as a Warhammer Quest substitute, and the basic intro box for 40k (~$55 US on Amazon) is a pretty good compromise between the complexity of the full game and accessibility of the old boxed games. With the right support, I could also see Legiones Imperialis being a really important support product because the ceiling on cost and paint time is so much lower.
So I would have agreed with you... would have, but Australians face the cost crunch more than anyone else. There was a time when I actually wanted to collect every Warhammer underworlds warband because the hit our exact sweet spot, highly detailed models, but not to many and it was about the right price. Sure you could get more models but it comes with cards part of a game blah blah blah. Back then it was 45 AUD for a box now it is 65 AUD, for the main game the starter or season box whatever you would like to call it, it was 100 AUD and now it is 160 AUD I hope that Legiones Imperialis (hope I spelt that right ha ha) gets support because people seem to enjoy it, as we said in the video we want people to win ultimately
You're argument ain't very good no offence lol. Underworlds is just a vs game - it's not a dungeon crawler where friends and family can play, and it's far too mature for a family gateway game. This is obvious. Legions Imperialis is also insanely expensive so that's a second lol not to mention it's a very specific niche and a wargame, not an adventure. Hero Quest is an ADVENTURE.
GW is their own worst enemy & I'm waiting quietly in the corner for the fall. Their pricing is designed to underscore their thought that they're a premium product, but then they nickel & dime like a free to play mobile game. I take my kids down to the local GW store for the free mini each month, but they've seen the prices & compared the GW hobby with all their competing ones and it just can't compete. They'd rather buy Pokemon cards, Nintendo games or save for a full gaming PC than start collecting for a GW army - because of the prices they see on the shelves.
I guess it is a fundamental difference in view we would prefer GW to change than for them to fail. But I would be lying if it said I don't understand - Cal
Very interesting video and perspective! I live in the Las Vegas, NV area and I personally have had a very different experience. Im in my mid thirties and got into 40k towards the end of the pandemic as a shift out of TTRPG. I would say the majority of the players who frequent my local GW store to play are in their early to mid twenties. We do have quite a few very successful LGS in and around the Vegas area and the crowds are pretty varied with noticeableage demogtaphics tending to congregate at specific stores. I think you might be onto something regarding this being an American & wealth specific experience. The Vegas valley has grown immensely the past few years and seems to fall inline with other areas that have people who share a similar experience.
Well it was just something we noticed, and we are a in a bit of a hobby bubble in that we don't have a great deal of people who we talk to personally who are American. This was actually birthed from thread many years ago to encourage people to paint more (thus the name) and the people in what is now the Facebook group are largely Europeans and Australians. So we may have been in a bit of a hobby bubble it seems the American experience is very different but it also may be American culture we don't know. But we are exploring things - Cal
Good take. Fellow Aussie here. My niece and nephew who are getting to an age to potentially want to play have no interest...tho I do notice in Brisbane at least a lot of young men in their 20s feilding full armys. My guess is in there teens with no money they have the want to get into it. And now with adult money they can get into it
Yep a lot of young men, I am not far from there. But... the thing is these are people with a lot of money and time to spend and that is another thing we worry about. "The Whale problem" most of all of GW money it feels doesn't come from a large group of people but a small group of people as you said who invest heavily. I hope the video was enjoyable? - Cal
@@WhatareyouPaintingnow I will say that I never heard of Warhammer until my daughter told me about it in 2002. I had played hero quest but never linked them until Silver Tower was released and it was mentioned
Yes, Historical players have said this a lot, however I feel our argument is very different. They will say because of cost, design and everything is wrong. Where as we are saying they need more ways to get people into the hobby and more accessible games which I feel is a very different argument - Cal
I know plenty of people starting the game for the first time as adults. Interesting argument, but heavily biased and likely ill informed, especially once the cinematic stuff releases.
I enjoyed the video, I think there is a certain truth to aspects of it, but overall I would say the view is a bit simplistic. I remember when I got into this hobby at age 10, which depressingly was 28 years ago, 1996, I was introduced through Space Crusade by my aunt & uncle and later by my cousins who played 2nd edition 40k. We got our models from mail order mostly. I remember when playstation and xbox were tossed around as being wargame killers. Then PC games got so good at doing RTS or Strategy with great graphics that they were obvious wargame killlers. Even as the world becomes more digital, the boardgame industry has boomed. The issue facing the wargaming community is the same issue facing tv and movies. It's not that there are less players, it's just that there is so much choice that the market is more fractured, but still dominated by GW. The idea that wargaming as a hobby will fade over the next few decades is just a bit too out there. There are more and more people playing than ever. Every one of my friends with kids old enough are passing on their hobby passion. I have three kids and when they are old enough I'll be bringing them through the hobby if they are interested. GW are making a profit. They are comfortable in their market strategy. They arguably have turned around from their worst years, although in my opinion that only suggests successful PR strategy, because it certainly isn't because of better value for money! I think it will take a lot for GW to drop prices. I actually can't see it happening. What is happening is other companies are following their lead and raising prices while still being better value propositions. www.arizton.com/market-reports/tabletop-games-market The market forcast for our industry is predicting the tabletop games space is going to nearly double in value from 2022 - 2028 from USD 24.91 billion to 48.69 billion and while that is an all encompasing boardgames, wargames, rpgs etc, that doesn't seem like a market growth prediction fuelled by falling interests.
You are certain the person who has brought the most data to the table with that link, we will look into it. So we have had some push back on this one, for two reasons, we are the wholesome couple channel for some people and they basically tuned in for wholesome couple channel and got a domestic (paraphrasing but basically what they said) and a lot of people saying no my group is mostly young people. So we are trying to figure out if it is a bubble thing (we were in a bubble) or if it is a regional or economic thing because we have noticed almost all the people giving big push back against this are American. Which isn't as represented in the people we talk to directly. So we are thinking on some things and formulating ideas - Cal
This is something I noticed awhile back as well. Games like heroquest and warhammer used to aim at kids for 10-16. Now no one is giving them really any other options other than the fortnights, etc. I'm working on an IP that i hope will appeal to younger audiences and the goal is to make it simple and affordable.
@@WhatareyouPaintingnow I'm trying to come up with something mixing sci-fi & fantasy that is easy and reasonably priced so that kids and people who have never played a TT can have fun and not be overwhelmed.
@@WhatareyouPaintingnow right now it is mostly in the early stages. I've only been working on it for a couple months. (Currently working on interesting play mechanics & faction design) I've done some solo playtesting, looking to involve a friend to get their input and see what their thoughts are. I'm hoping to have a full prototype of the game within a year.
So, I’ve been watching a lot of warhammer content lately. Paintng miniatures seems really fun. The game itself is a bit of a mystery to me, So I looked into what I would need to play and when I saw the prices I basically went “HELL NO!”. I have since started looking into 3d printers. I play DnD with my friends and got started for free. We’ve gotten most of the books now, but we literally started with pen and paper. If they want new people in the hobby, they should capitalize on the DnD boom that’s been happening. They should offer cheap starter sets that don’t require putting together and painting miniatures. Right now the initial investment to get into this hobby is way to high. There is definitely an interest. Grimdank is doing well on tiktok for instance. But it ends there as far as official stuff goes. People who develop their own 3d printables are very popular and produce some amazing stuff. At this point they are better and cheaper then games workshop. No sprews, just painting and the artwork is incredibly detailed. As someone who’s just coming into this hobby, games workshop looks like a scam in comparison.
Your assumption does not match data that is publicly available (the data you can get from GW's annual shareholders report and their financials that they have to report to the UK government). It might be a localization anomaly. Here in the US and from what I have seen on my trips to the UK the hobby seems to be getting bigger than ever, and young new players abound in my location and others I have played at. So being that the Australian market is honestly the most expensive market for new players to get into GW also plays a big roll.
So yes we are Australian but we talk to ALOT of Europeans and this is why we made this video because those Europeans were saying the exact same thing the Australians were when we made those comments. I don't think it is a localization issue but I DO think America is different, based off the comments we have got. However taking a look at those annual reports the game itself is making less and less money and lending out their IP is making more and more. So two things can be true at once, they can be shrinking in some markets, growing in others, and making less money from the game but making more money in general. I don't know currently if it is an American issue or is it is an affluence issue. Because we have had comments from Austin Texas, California but one Midwestern state. But those commenters don't seem to be troubled by the price, which is to be quite frank a minority view We would love to get more information from you, and I hope you don't take this as an insult but if you are often taking trips to the UK, do you think your view of the hobby may be coloured because you are well off?
My main thing I can’t get my head around is why Warhammer stores can’t sell their stuff for the same 21% off that other game stores do. Sure, it would be less profit, but I would actually buy from a Warhammer store then, not from an independent retailer. Also, Underworlds would be the comparison for HeroQuest. $100 starter set, and different warbands are different colour plastic to make them easy to differentiate without painting them.
Warhammer Underworld is now 160 for each two team seasonal box. I believe the save an eternal starter at 100 but as far as I know the seasonal boxes take preference over them. As I said in another comment I really liked it but with price increase it was bit of hit the warbands going from 45 to 65 over the last few years was quite a hit
No major releases in 20 years also age of sigmar in 2015....darktide in 2022...legions imperials 2024, yhe old world 2024, space marine 2 2024, also kinda dates itself with "no tv adds" while being on youtube also i think the mass of content creators and animations like astartes really replaced tv my little brother dosnt know what the simpsons are but he can tell me all about markiplier and his fnaf playthroughs. i love the style of your content and the back and forth but dissagree with your point. Hope this didnt come across mean ❤
I got introduced to 40k as a legal adult and don't buy in the store mainly due to not having any nearby. And due to being short on money... Which, together with terrible health, is also the reason, that I havn't assembled and painted the starter box I bought...
I Strongly disagree with most of the points made in this video. Warhammer is more successful now than its ever been and the driving factor is a continuous influx of new players. Those new players are generally young adults, not children, who have grown up on video games and are looking to find a similar gaming experience but within their local community. Its the older and more jaded players who are moving to 3d printing and 3rd party sources. A decade ago those same people would have been buying used armies on ebay instead and its having a marginal impact on GWs sales. GW has also been putting out more intro level box games than ever. Warhammer quest, warcry, kill team, Underworlds, necromunda, etc. Finally, if you take an objective look at the prices to play the game they havent really scaled up that much since the early 2000s back when metals were still prevelant. 10 metal infantry models were $50usd back by 2008, now most 10 model infantry boxes are $50. Ogre sized models came in single model blisters at $25, and boxes of 3 run at $60 now. The biggest difference now is that there are big $175 centerpeice models that didnt exist back then, but those arent necessary to play.
First fine to disagree we have zero problem with (civil disagreement obviously) But we do know for fact that Games-Workshop heavily targeted children. You may be right about the 3D printing thing we have talked a lot about how some people treat 3D printing as a magic solution but we disagree on that see our Poorhammer video. However with your section paragraph I think you are just out right wrong we have done price comparisons like we did in the video. Historically Hero Quest was 30 dollars and currently adjusted for inflation it would be 74 and that would translate over 100 in AUD but every board game comparable is over 200 dollars AUD. So I think on the math of models they are just wrong. Its okay to disagree but we did look into it - Cal
@WhatareyouPaintingnow heroquest is a Hasbro collaboration oriented towards the general board game market, like monopoly. GW hasn't had the rights to it for decades. It's an anomaly in the entirety of GW catalogue. It didn't cost as much as the game had minimal components by modern board game standards and had pvc miniatures instead of HIPS. The reality is that metal, resin. And HIPS products have always been expensive. I don't understand how anyone, anywhere, ever thought it was a hobby for children.
Where are you located that hasn't been our experience or the people we talked to so we would like to know if we are the anomaly or if you are. Thanks for disagreeing with grace I hope you can see we are trying to do the same in kind - Cal
Yeah, southern California. I cant find it now but the poorhammer podcast did a good episode a while back about ways to lower the cost/get new people into it.@@WhatareyouPaintingnow
I wasn't introduced to warhammer or anything I'm into a now as a kid. I remember seeing gameplay of the space marine game when I was a kid and not being interested at all. I've knew about warhammer 40k since I was 7 but didn't have any interest in it until I was 20. Now I'm 21 and I'm really into painting SP minis, it's been my main hobby since about the start of this year
Okay so correct me if I am wrong but you validated Sunny's points in that there are no minis in the video games you only came to it later in life? - Cal
@@WhatareyouPaintingnow idk I can't really speak on the games/minis connection seeing as how I've never played any of the WH video games. What got me into WH wasn't a boyish fascination with sci-fi action as a kid. It was actually a growing love of gothic beauty and fascism that had *started* when I was a kid but didn't come out until my early twenties. That's how I got into WH broadly. I got into painting minis because SMs just look so cool and I love the feeling of looking at a completed mini!
So I got to disagree, based on my own anecdotal experience. I got into WHFB in my 20's. GW has never really been aimed at children, it has always been expensive both in money and the time spent assembling/painting. I own a shop and I see lots of twenty-somethings buying GW. Older people as well, but a lot of people in their 20's. Though these people are "kids" to me, I have never seen an actual kid playing anything GW makes. On miniature night it is all early 20's to grognards like myself. The people in their twenties way outnumber the grognards at my shop. Again, I know this is all anecdotal.
May I ask where you/your shop are and is located? Because it has been our experience and the experience of many people we know that it is very similar to what we said. But as someone who has worked for the company I do know that market to kids quite a bit and that is a core demographic of theirs at least back when I was with them, which is admittedly some time ago. You aren't the first person to disagree and we are open to hearing the otherside - Cal
@@WhatareyouPaintingnow This is all in Austin, Texas. In the 90's, is when our group of early 20s got into it. We were already playing rpgs and some of us read comics. We saw some college kids playing 40k in the shop we patronized, but liked fantasy better. So we went with the fourth edition starter box. Later in 2001 to around 2006, I worked for that same shop. Miniature night was mostly 40k, with one Confrontation and one Battletech table. Every person that played was at least nineteen with some others being in there 30s. On other nights, (Magic night, rpg night, etc), there were always a few kids. The young adults still outnumbered the kids, but there were a few 10 to 12 year olds there. Magic night had more teenagers. I never saw kids on miniature night. I don't think I ever sold any GW to anyone younger than 17. Starting in 2014, it has been the same experience in my own store. Miniature night is mostly something GW (sometimes it is 40k, sometimes Kill Team, sometimes Underworlds.), with a few tables of X-Wing. There are never any kids there. On magic night and rpg night, there are kids(10-12). Magic still has a good percentage of teenagers. Kids are still the minority, but there are some on the other nights. So on miniature nights in the 90s, 00s, and the 20s, it is young adults who are the majority. Not kids or grognards. GW has always been overpriced compared to other hobbies and it continues to skyrocket. Magic seems cheaper, and it can be if you control yourself. The price of a starter pack and some boosters, or a rpg starter set has always/will always be cheaper than trying to collect an army from GW. You add to that having to buy paints and tools, then the time investment to actually complete the army. None of this has ever seemed like a good fit for anyone younger than at least high school age. If GW is marketing to children who are too young to have a part time job, it seems about as effective as a steakhouse marketing to vegans. Again this all anecdotal. There could be tons of preteens playing GW in Austin, but they do not play or buy at my store.
You know based off the answers we get where people are disagreeing, they are in very rich parts of America, California and Austin Texas correct me if I am wrong about the city but it is currently experincing a boom correct? When I saw the magic comment I had to laugh I used to be a GPT grinder and my brother won money and we talk about it in our Poorhammer episode. So I wonder two things, is this success an American thing and is it a wealth thing. Because everyone we have talked to has been a part of the Anglo Sphere outside of America. All of the British people, English, Irish, Scottish and Welsh, as well as some Germans and Scandinavians, and the finally us Australians. Ever time I have seen a contrary view on this it has been American. Do you think that is is possible that it is that?
@@WhatareyouPaintingnow The city is growing, it never seems to stop. There is lots of gentrification here. I have never lived outside of America. As far as American kids and GW, it may have to do with the deep Puritan sickness that is baked into our our culture. Every now and then there is a scandal because some moron gets upset that his precious soft-headed child saw some nudity in a picture or sculpture at a museum. American parents seem less concerned with violence than sex, but Warhammer may go beyond what people consider acceptable. Paragraphs about piles of dead people, descriptions of cleaning off a skull as a trophy, Dark Eldar lifestyles, etc. It could be a regional thing, whatever the cause. It could just be that culturally, miniature wargames are not family gaming here. Family gaming is monopoly, clue, battleship, and stratego. All the wargamers I see are young twenties playing other young twenties, just like I started. To me this has always made sense. It is the age where most people are not married, not parents, and have the small fortune it takes to have an army in Warhgammer.
You know we would love to have a conversation on this because it seems like there is a massive dived between the people we talked to before making this video and a lot of the Americans. Or at least the Americans commenting. I feel like our video was still spot on... however, it may be a completely different story for America. It has made us think about talking about the divide between us because its interesting. Because the reason we made this video because everyone (and I mean every single person we had a deep conversation with) had a very similar experience based off what we heard. So we were trying to articulate that into a video and this was the result. I wonder why there is such a divide - Cal
Like I am getting my kid into it. Though he doesn't like the painting and assembling of models. He just wants to be able to sit down and just play the game. The one miniatures game that had the right idea to come out recently was the x-wing miniatures game. With pre assembled and prepainted minis that had a reasonably price starter set and sold in retail store like target and walmart, it was great and actually was one of a few Catalysts to get me back into warhammer. Games Workshop show come out with something similar. Something that looks amazing right out of the box and cost as much as a video game or two. That way a kid who got that game will look at other games workshop stuff and want to make the grey plastic stuff look like their retail box game.
I'll support my local mom-and-pop hobby store, but it's been easily over a decade since I even stepped foot in a Warhammer store. I usually order my models from a preferred hobby retailer who seems to have cheaper stuff that's actually in stock. That being said, once I finally finish this army, it'll be a while before I start another one. Your mentioning video games is apt. The instant gratification for a fraction of the price is tempting indeed. The only reason I don't fall back into that is because I don't like the idea that my primary source of fun depends on an internet connection, and I like to customize my characters too much to be stuck with someone else's design.
Yeah... I think their soft digital rights management of being always online really bit them in the behind for a lot of people! I mean its not about if people can get an internet connection or not, ALOT of people want that time to be their disconnect from reality let alone the internet. - Cal
Whilst I still actively follow the hobby and keep up with the lore, I haven't purchased a model since the early 2000's. Part of it is due to a complete lack of gaming groups beyond anything more than historical in my area but the larger part is the price of the hobby nowadays. It's not that I don't have disposable income but more a matter of competing interests, there are far more things I would rather spend that kind of money on before thinking about ludicrously overpriced plastic soldiers. Sure there's plenty of people with circumstantial evidence of young people getting into the hobby but I don't know how they're getting 'enough' young people into the hobby to sustain it over the long term given that you pretty much need a full time job to be able to afford to properly take part in said hobby. I'd love to see the data on it but that data doesn't exist.
Yeah so a lot of people we talked to said something like the points we hit here and had similar experiences. I feel like there are new people coming in like you say but same as you said not enough - Cal
Fellow Aussie here too My eldest son has zero interest. My youngest has a small potential for getting into it. Even myself, i don't buy hardly any of the new stuff. I mostly collect vintage metal space wolves and Bretonnians. I'm chasing my nostalgia train and GW isn't scratching that itch with the modern stuff. Great video as usual. Keep it up!
Thank you very much I feel like a lot of people have very similar feelings that's why we made this one because a lot of people have articulated, a similar feeling. So this was our response to that, so it is you and people like you that inspired it. So thank for your praise and... I hope we did it justice - Cal
I’ve just returned from a 20 year break from the hobby and my Eldar army is looking pretty dated (Avatar of Khaine on a square base for the win!). Got the Leviathan box and other new sculpts, really enjoying building and painting them so far. I hope to get my now 1-year-old son into the game eventually. Fingers crossed!
For that you might enjoy our video Warhammer Dad ua-cam.com/video/LaiGKYkFJ4M/v-deo.html A lot of other parents found it useful, and good luck with your hobby adventure
@@WhatareyouPaintingnow I did, and shared it with my wife who also really liked it! I haven’t really come across this type of content from other channels, which is one of the reasons I subscribed.
Harley Davidson gets by via a sales model designed to bilk its mostly old and/or retired fans of as much money as possible, while almost no young people are riding Harleys unless they're secondhand and they happen to be motorcycle mechanics, because guess what? Harley doesn't even make the best bikes, they just brand the heck out of everything they make and some geezer will buy it.
We will, we hope you enjoy and you could really help us out by sharing this video, we took a bit of a risk breaking format and I don't think the algorithm like us doing that :/ - Cal
Y’all didn’t consider the mobile games. Literally the only Warhammer I’ve ever played was on my iPhone. Console & PC gaming are getting eaten by mobile gaming to the point it hardly makes sense to make big budget titles for them without Marvel-level appeal. So it’s not surprising to see them leave that platform. They need to partner with CMON and embrace the crowdfunding platforms… I mean seriously. Why has Space Hulk never had an expansion?
I totally agree with you about the cost of entry into Warhammer, but I don't see GW fading out in the next few decades. Warhammer has historically been a word of mouth game, that's how I was introduced to it back in 5th ed. And that's back when you would hardly hear a peep from GW. Nowadays it's completely flipped. GW constantly communicates with its community, releasing FAQ's and data slates at least quarterly. And it still is advertised via word of mouth, it's just gone digital. Henry freaking Cavil got GW and Amazon to work out a deal for a show. I can see GW moving their animations to Amazon Prime as well. Creators like Bricky have gotten tons of attention for their video synopsis' about 40k, Vtubers especially. And they all draw in a large, younger audience. I have no illusions that GW won't be reducing it's prices anytime soon, and people will always buy more warhammer. I always hope, bc I love the games and the minis, but I'm not holding my breath. we just have to wait and see.
So to a certain to extend it is hyperbole however we do think the point remains that without getting the next generation of gamers in it will slowly age out. You're not wrong about it being a word of mouth game or them lowering their prices... However, I hope that the stop increasing their prices for awhile so we can have some breathing space. However, I do disagree on one thing you said, that they communicate a lot... So communication requires a back and forth, it requires that one side listen to the other and we try hard to do that, we may not be the best at but we try. I don't actually think that Games-Workshop does that, I think they blast out information but they don't communicate, if you follow the difference here. They are better at informing people about stuff but don't actually communicate more. Two way communication if that is better. You're thoughts? - Cal
It's been said that GW will be a rules company very soon. Their product is even too expensive for adults. TBH it's gotten foolishly expensive. I wouldn't advise people buy any actual GW products. These are plastic toys, and I still need to retire someday.
Interesting... I have heard the exact opposite said by some people that it will stop being a rules company and instead become boutique model company... but yeah interesting idea
All great points though as a new player the biggest problem I had was figuring out what the heck 40k actually is and what I need to play it. It took around 2 weeks of searching to understand why the Horus Heresy had its own miniatures, why the Indomitus box was only being sold on EBay, and why the rules download seemed woefully inadequate to play a full 40k game. And what the heck is Age of Sigmar anyway? 🧐 (they should have stuck with Warhammer Fantasy if you ask me) Not to mention the shock of learning that what I wanted to buy could be out of stock for months on end or completely discontinued. So yeah a standalone game you can buy at any store with all minis included sounds like a great intro assuming GW puts more thought behind it than they did with Space Marine the Board Game (US only? release). Barring that their best hope might be the way that some of today's video games are so immersive that they almost feel like a second job and maybe that'll drive people to unplug and try an "analog" form of gaming. Hope GW has some kind of long term plan!
Yep, that's why I mentioned the video games, but the way we scripted it Sunny has a point (though it is our point) that there are no minis in there, there is a lot of extra steps that relies a lot on hope to turn people like yourself into hobbyists - Cal
I am a grognard being introduced to wargaming in the early 80s, Napoleonics, WWII Naval, WWI Air, Warhammer FB, Car Wars, what was then modern 1/600 armour, etc. Napoleonics is an old man’s war, no sexism intended (I only know 1 woman who plays). And wargaming has been ‘dying out’ since I first went to a club to play. Individual games wax and wane, companies come and go, players stick around and new players start playing. I voted with my $ and bought a 3D printer for the ease of printing terrain, WW1 figs in 15mm, modern fighting vehicles and recently an Ork, a Chaos Dwarf, a Dwarf and a Tomb Kings army for ToW, to join my older Empire army plus some new Space Communists to join my GW T’au. I am not buying any more of the GW models, unless I really like the model (TK swarm) but I buy their books. They live, they die by their own hubris. I have rule books going back to WFB3 and even if GW shuts shop, I can play any edition I want if I can keep the life support going on my mates. Or I can play crowd sourced editions. 1 of my kids plays 40K and Kill Team, hence the T’au, and so far none of the grand kids, but while the family chat is filled with Taytay pics and talk, there is enough wargaming in there to keep me busy. Long post to say, it is never a good idea to rest your entire income on a single modality, diversify your supported games and companies, as the hobby evolves. Older gamers tend to have more disposable cash for their hobby, younger players will always need gateway games.
Oh yeah I totally agree with most of what you said but, the issue here on UA-cam is Warhammer is king but also... we felt as if this is true and that a lot of people have said something very similar so we wanted to try and make a video which expresses that view. Because we actually want Warhammer/GW to succeed but we also want fresh new people. And well done on voting with your wallet, astonishingly few people do that - Cal
Games Workshop games are priced at a level that only really young adults with disposable income and adults who are already in the hobby are willing to afford. Their are other miniature games out there that are more geared to younger audiences and more affordable. Hero quest was made in collaboration with Milton Bradley and the entire box was covered with MB trademark. GW went on to create warhammer quest in 95 and it was priced at a more premium price now that it was solely GW's. GW is hesitant to release anything miniature wise that would cheapen that premium branding they have. My thinking is that GW use the multitude of video games they release (Space Marine 2 is soon to release) and the upcoming Amazon show to try and interest younger folk into warhammer in the hopes they transition to wargamming in their twenties/teens. If GW wanted to release something with physical models to try and get younger generations into war games I feel they would need something that is not warhammer related so they could do things that made Hero Quest so great while not "cheapening" their current lines.
It's funny that they price themselves at that level, but their target demo in stores is sub-16. Oh sure they'll grab onto a witless young adult with more money than sense when they can, but they always targeted the 10-14 market hard from stores. A friend of mine worked at the GW store in Dublin for a few years and he always laughed about it. It wasn't their money, they just had to hook them enough so that they would pester mum and dad until they gave in. And don't fool yourself into thinking that they don't give in. I've known a lot of parents who balked at the price, but were still willing to fork it over because at least it was something physical, in the real world, getting them out socialising with real people.
@@farplaine I think you are correct that the stores and the demos are targeted to young kids. Not sure your location but in America I don't see many young kids in Warhammer or flgs in general unless they are there for trading card games and a few at ttrpg night with their parents. So if demo games are their only strategy to pull in younger audiences I think they need to make some adjustments. Your certainly not wrong about kids using parents money. It's how I got into Warhammer. Went to a hobby store for model cars with my dad ended up convincing him to get me a starterbox of Warhammer instead.
@@WhatareyouPaintingnow its a self perpetuating cycle. Warhammer is the most popular game, has the most brand recognition and therefore has the most videos. In order to get the hits and views, you need your video to get in front of people likely to watch that topic, so you have to feed the algorithm. In order to make a living the bigger channels are forced to keep making warhammer videos even though you see the passion for the topic might not always be there.
@@WhatareyouPaintingnow I'm sorry but if the call to action on this video is to help GW maintain their unhealthy market dominance, then I can't support that. I appreciate you're in a difficult situation, along with every other hobby UA-cam channel, and you've got to do what you've got to do. I'm going to do what I like to do, which is play Kings of War and Infinity.
Our call to action is for Games-Workshop to make more accessible games, and it is our sincere belief that if Games-Workshop fails most of the hobby market will go with it. We do promote other games but if that isn't enough for you so be it - Cal
I disagree. I got into the hobby last year as a 23 year old. Sure, I have been a massive fantasy nerd forever and that's what drew me to Age of Sigmar initially but not because of nostalgia. I was 2 y/o when Fellowship was released and only first watched it when I was 13 or 14. At that age my love for fantasy was already thriving for a myriad of reasons, but mainly books and later on, video games. Those are released every day. It's true that the hype for fantasy following the years of the theatrical release of LotR has died down, but there's still lots of kids growing up as nerds and through that pipeline they're later showing interest in wargaming. At least that's the more popular reason people started with wargaming/warhammer I hear from my peers. In my main playing group, only 2/6 guys started as a kid. The rest were into fantasy for different reasons and just so happened to stumble upon Warhammer AoS.
So are you American? we have found that a lot of people who are very opposed to this idea are American, we formed this video largely around people who said the exact same thing to us across the globe but the majority of them were Australian and European. So we are trying to figure something out here. And how did the rest of your group get into the hobby
@@WhatareyouPaintingnow I'm from germany actually! Most of us who haven't played as Kids already come from a DnD background. I'm a DM and got myself a resin 3d printer for my campaign last year. I then also started printing AoS proxies and got into the hobby that way. One of my players was interested aswell and had previously used a GW mini as his character in our campaign so decided to give it a try. The 2 who did play as kids are brothers and know another guy from uni who had no notable background aside from being friends with those guys. Last regular of our group has a similar background as me and my mate, having played a fair bit of ttrpgs. Got wind of this new thing we were doing and joined us later.
The DnD/ttrpg Pipeline is among the most popular I hear from people. It might be a german thing though, as we have a competitor to DnD called DSA/Das Schwarze Auge/The Dark Eye that is really popular and has been outselling DnD since the 80s/90s. Nowadays, DnD might be more popular but DSA definitely kept the german ttrpg community alive.
I think most people develop a taste for fantasy/sci-fi/nerdy stuff through media such as books and/or video games, which leads to them playing a ttrpg, perhaps painting their first minis as a DM for encounters or as a Player for their characters. From there the transition is natural as you can't get around warhammer when buying paints, brushes and such
@@topkekbieri Interesting so you would be the first European that we have talked to who has had the counter view, but it has mostly been Anglo and Scandinavians we talked to which said almost all the same thing. Which is why we made the video. So may I ask is the area you come from well off? We believe we may have been in a bubble because literally everyone we talked to in depth gave a similar sort of view to what we presented here but didn't know how to give it voice and so this was made to do that. But yeah you are the outlier here so we are trying to figure things out - Cal
7 місяців тому
Having kids not play on a video console is also worth something.
Point of fact, I started as a new player and collector in my 30s. The idea of assembling and then painting your toys was repugnant to me as a kid. And while I will become the new grognard at my flags the majority of players are twenty somethings, and their children.
Interesting, may I ask where you are located. This is a reoccurring theme in the disagreements, I want to figure if it is self-selection with our audience and the people we know or if it may be geographical - Cal
@@WhatareyouPaintingnow geographically I’m in the Midwest of the US. Locally many people turned off the electronics regularly for family game night even before the pandemic. During lockdown downs more ttrpgs and board games became even more popular taking wargaming along for the ride. The numbers have reverted maybe 20% since lockdowns were ended, but the flgs stores in the area have been expanding still. And their major revenue streams that have sustained their growth come from Warhammer and other wargames. Doubtless GW is at an inflection point where they risk repeating the mistakes of the past and this time there is a viable alternative in 3D printing but the broader hobby is still in a renaissance of sorts.
You know we are starting to see a trend everyone who has a view counter to this video which was made broadly because everyone we heard from had a very similar opinion but didn't know how to voice is American. Do you think that it may be that America hasn't been hit as hard by some economic woes (not that it hasn't and we try like guy trying to hide his attraction to his crush to avoid politics). Because we have noticed that every single person who has disagreed with this point is American - Cal
@@WhatareyouPaintingnow so long as we’re making broad generalizations 1. I think Americans culturally are more apt to make their objections or disagreements known over the possibility of being seen as too polite. 2. I don’t think it’s a case of the US escaping global transitive inflation, (it’s all you hear about on the news is some OAP lamenting how expensive the world is compared to when they were young). 3. It may be that your perspective that Warhammer/wargaming is fueled by nostalgia is incorrect (or at least regional). The complexity of wargaming rules doesn’t lend itself to young children’s interests or comprehension sure, but the notion of living in or creating an idealized fantasy world in miniature (be it Napoleonic historical, Medieval/Renaissance fantasy, or Sci-Fi fantasy) and interacting with that world at some level certainly does. As does re-enacting, or larp on a larger scale. If a child sees mom or dad doing it and they invite the kids to have a good time with them, it’s not nostalgia driving that interaction. The brightly colored armies, and immersive tables filled with well modeled terrain (especially when you get your eyes down to table level) is just fun. Personally I entered the hobby from d&d, where I was a pen and paper only player. But unlike my youth the act of assembly and painting has become a meditative relaxation, and almost escapism as the chaos of the world fades away and my world becomes one inch tall and I try to paint that gem on the figures necklace. Still I know others that entered the hobby as it’s a game that appeals to their competitive nature or their military mindset as veteran service members and competitive gamers.
I am sorry I don't know what OAP is. We weren't trying to make generalizations with the American comment, we have just noticed a trend we get to talking and almost all of them are American and the reason we made this video is because everyone we talked to had almost the exact same thoughts and the video is a result of that. Trying to voice these peoples thoughts, but they are Australian and European - Cal
Please share this video if you enjoyed it we took a bit of a risk and broke our usual format to make this. If you really enjoyed it please share it because we put a lot of work into it, it may not seem it but we did historical price comparisons, all sorts of nonsense research and of course Sunny's amazing visuals.
So if you shared this video we thank you from the bottom of our heart
I dont now why but just a minute ago i got from UA-cam a notification of youre poll, and only because of that and the link in it is that i know of this video.
UA-cam is crazy because it happens to more channels , but i wil turn the bell of and back on again and hope that solved the notification problem.
And now time to watch the interesting video
yes we had something like 300 views when we made the poll but now video is far beyond that... so yeah UA-cam being UA-cam but we had noticed a downward trend with views on our videos so that is why we were like... we need to figure this out
GW is their own worst enemy.
In many ways I would agree but some of the times I am wondering now is this just the most successful business strategy and if it is, it makes me sad
How about keeping Space Hulk in production for starters. It’s insane to me that they’d rather keep it as unobtanium.
Yes Space Hulk would be good too... - Cal
100 percent agree. Fantastic game
THAT was the perfect gate way game
It’s been a comedy watching GW channels one by one sour on GW’s pricing model. Some like Tabletop Minions leave the warhammer sphere for the greater wargaming market, bringing attention to indie stuff like Stargrave, 5 Parsecs, and Forbidden Psalm, which allow them to use their existing warhammer collections in their own scenarios. Others attempt to pivot to less well loved but still popular model lines like Battletech or Star Wars Legion. Still others venture to 3D printing, as trolling through stl libraries is cheaper. Finally there are those who attempt to power through regardless, making guides for eBay hunting and mathing out cheaper factions.
Regardless, being the premium choice is GW’s big enemy. Greed will kill them eventually.
So, I have to say it sad to hear the way you put it because, we actually want GW to succeed but... You're not wrong about the pricing. I think other than the pricing GW is doing a lot of good things. I think they are doing bad things but so does everyone else that is a company, I just think the good would probably out way the bad if it wasn't for their pricing - Cal
GW does a bit too much wrong than right currently. Of course they are why we have the mini Wargaming hobby part of the general hobby. They are in a tough position because of 3d printing, & Cal admitted recently he just printed a proxy for a GW model he found too expensive. The true barrier is the fortune you need to buy an army. Also GW stores won't let you play in the store.
I maintain that one or two more decent price hikes will shatter the momentum GW has built in the post-Kirby era. One the price for your basic infantry kit hits about the $90-$100 (USD/CAD), I think we'll see a rapid collapse of GW's market. It's worth noting that we're already dangerous close to that point as is. The average baseline infantry kit in 40k or AoS runs you anywhere from $60-$80, with the higher end being newer kits. TOW is a harder beast to factor into this since it's so new and its prices are, wild, to say the least.
I think that the already existing hobby and gaming community is toxic too, and has some kind of responsibility. Let's say GW release a hero quest-like game, based on 40k, with 1-piece SM miniatures, similar to today's models. And let's say the price is around 100 dollars. How many scalpers do you think will buy large numbers of this box?
I know exactly what you are saying but with what we were suggesting we were saying like it is so mass produced, that it is in toystores and department stores as well, so it wouldn't matter if someone tried to 'scalp' it, because there would simply be too much of it out there...
But perhaps we didn't communicate that as well as we could have - Cal
When i was at my LGS and I seen a single sprue in a tiny box costing well over $40 for 1 model, and I see a gundam, about 20 yards away also for a bit over $40 in a much larger box, well designed packaging, way more sprues overall, different colors so no need to paint it, and it is posable. I dont buy 40k stuff because I cant justify spending so much for a model that I could 3D print myself for, what $10 for a whole squad or even a respectable sized army and a fraction of a bottle of resin.
Yes it is not the cost of plastic or resin that is driving the price for them - Cal
The stuff is sold out because they are generating false scarcity to drive up prices. I mean you think a multi billion dollar company can’t print models faster than the average Joe with an elegoo. Seems fishy
I actually know why that is. It's because of the moulds lost in China when the decided to stop model manufacturing over there. So yeah actually not their fault. Just non sense over lost moulds
@@WhatareyouPaintingnow Is this true? I always thought GW was doing their manufacturing in the UK. At least they state in their website that they do their manufacturing in Nottingham.
I am completely new to warhammer. I have 0 nostalgia for the series and I’m in my 20s. I mainly play kill team and can say a significant amount of the people I play KT with are brand new to the franchise. Teens, other dudes my age, old heads, just about everybody.
I was introduced to the series from Darktide
I think Killteam is one of their best ideas, I have a LOT of commissions for kill team like that is the majority of my business at the moment. We did mention about how video games can convert people but we believe its reliant on a lot of hope rather than actually directly getting people into the hobby - Cal
@@WhatareyouPaintingnow I have been building gundam model kits for quite some time so the transition was very smooth for me.
The gaming side was a harder entry point for me than the hobby side which seems to make me an oddity among newer players so I might just be a weird case haha. Watching some warhammer creators build gundam models was one of the first times I was introduced to the hobby
This girl just complaining for the sake of it.
I'm new to the hobby, I can relate with the point that the hobby isn't that accessible or affordable to people who are looking to enter. I'm a young adult with not that much income and it's kinda hard trying to get another box without thinking about it. I hope something comes up wherein Warhammer appeals or becomes accessible to younger audiences. I Love the hobby but it's hard to keep up 😅
You know what you're not... You're not wrong. I love the hobby too many but some of the time, it is hard to keep up with - Cal
Frostgrave or Stargrave are more affordable.
not to mention other table top wargames are more fun for players than 40K, OPR is easier and not as one sided as 40k where, if you go first and have a good shooting phase you win!
A lot of people have praise for One Page Rules but I feel like most of them are former converts of Games-Workshop rather than people recruiting their own people - Cal
I'm going to argue that Warhammer Underworlds is perfectly functional as a Warhammer Quest substitute, and the basic intro box for 40k (~$55 US on Amazon) is a pretty good compromise between the complexity of the full game and accessibility of the old boxed games. With the right support, I could also see Legiones Imperialis being a really important support product because the ceiling on cost and paint time is so much lower.
So I would have agreed with you... would have, but Australians face the cost crunch more than anyone else. There was a time when I actually wanted to collect every Warhammer underworlds warband because the hit our exact sweet spot, highly detailed models, but not to many and it was about the right price. Sure you could get more models but it comes with cards part of a game blah blah blah.
Back then it was 45 AUD for a box now it is 65 AUD, for the main game the starter or season box whatever you would like to call it, it was 100 AUD and now it is 160 AUD
I hope that Legiones Imperialis (hope I spelt that right ha ha) gets support because people seem to enjoy it, as we said in the video we want people to win ultimately
You're argument ain't very good no offence lol. Underworlds is just a vs game - it's not a dungeon crawler where friends and family can play, and it's far too mature for a family gateway game. This is obvious.
Legions Imperialis is also insanely expensive so that's a second lol not to mention it's a very specific niche and a wargame, not an adventure. Hero Quest is an ADVENTURE.
GW is their own worst enemy & I'm waiting quietly in the corner for the fall. Their pricing is designed to underscore their thought that they're a premium product, but then they nickel & dime like a free to play mobile game. I take my kids down to the local GW store for the free mini each month, but they've seen the prices & compared the GW hobby with all their competing ones and it just can't compete. They'd rather buy Pokemon cards, Nintendo games or save for a full gaming PC than start collecting for a GW army - because of the prices they see on the shelves.
I guess it is a fundamental difference in view we would prefer GW to change than for them to fail. But I would be lying if it said I don't understand - Cal
@@WhatareyouPaintingnow I'm not wanting them to fail, but unless they change their mindset I feel that's their future.
Yeah... - Cal
Very interesting video and perspective! I live in the Las Vegas, NV area and I personally have had a very different experience. Im in my mid thirties and got into 40k towards the end of the pandemic as a shift out of TTRPG. I would say the majority of the players who frequent my local GW store to play are in their early to mid twenties. We do have quite a few very successful LGS in and around the Vegas area and the crowds are pretty varied with noticeableage demogtaphics tending to congregate at specific stores.
I think you might be onto something regarding this being an American & wealth specific experience. The Vegas valley has grown immensely the past few years and seems to fall inline with other areas that have people who share a similar experience.
Well it was just something we noticed, and we are a in a bit of a hobby bubble in that we don't have a great deal of people who we talk to personally who are American. This was actually birthed from thread many years ago to encourage people to paint more (thus the name) and the people in what is now the Facebook group are largely Europeans and Australians. So we may have been in a bit of a hobby bubble it seems the American experience is very different but it also may be American culture we don't know. But we are exploring things - Cal
Good take. Fellow Aussie here. My niece and nephew who are getting to an age to potentially want to play have no interest...tho I do notice in Brisbane at least a lot of young men in their 20s feilding full armys. My guess is in there teens with no money they have the want to get into it. And now with adult money they can get into it
Yep a lot of young men, I am not far from there. But... the thing is these are people with a lot of money and time to spend and that is another thing we worry about. "The Whale problem" most of all of GW money it feels doesn't come from a large group of people but a small group of people as you said who invest heavily. I hope the video was enjoyable? - Cal
I've noticed too. The only thing keeping Warhammer afloat are the massive problems in the modern dating market.
Can you give us a more complete picture with that?
I'm 34 and just starting.
Good luck on your hobby journey - Cal
GW needs to do this if it wants to survive in the future
You may be one of the few Americans who side with us on that apparently - Cal
@@WhatareyouPaintingnow I will say that I never heard of Warhammer until my daughter told me about it in 2002. I had played hero quest but never linked them until Silver Tower was released and it was mentioned
Australia myopia.
Historical Wargamers have been having this debate for decades if not more. Hobby hasn't died.
Yes, Historical players have said this a lot, however I feel our argument is very different. They will say because of cost, design and everything is wrong. Where as we are saying they need more ways to get people into the hobby and more accessible games which I feel is a very different argument - Cal
Warhammer fantasy is not aging out.
GW cancelled fantasy then they realized that the IP was popular.
They damaged one of their existing IP.
Warhammer is the new generic name for Games-Workshop as the have replaced there stores by that name and use it on UA-cam and elsewhere - Cal
I know plenty of people starting the game for the first time as adults.
Interesting argument, but heavily biased and likely ill informed, especially once the cinematic stuff releases.
I enjoyed the video, I think there is a certain truth to aspects of it, but overall I would say the view is a bit simplistic. I remember when I got into this hobby at age 10, which depressingly was 28 years ago, 1996, I was introduced through Space Crusade by my aunt & uncle and later by my cousins who played 2nd edition 40k. We got our models from mail order mostly. I remember when playstation and xbox were tossed around as being wargame killers. Then PC games got so good at doing RTS or Strategy with great graphics that they were obvious wargame killlers. Even as the world becomes more digital, the boardgame industry has boomed. The issue facing the wargaming community is the same issue facing tv and movies. It's not that there are less players, it's just that there is so much choice that the market is more fractured, but still dominated by GW.
The idea that wargaming as a hobby will fade over the next few decades is just a bit too out there. There are more and more people playing than ever. Every one of my friends with kids old enough are passing on their hobby passion. I have three kids and when they are old enough I'll be bringing them through the hobby if they are interested. GW are making a profit. They are comfortable in their market strategy. They arguably have turned around from their worst years, although in my opinion that only suggests successful PR strategy, because it certainly isn't because of better value for money! I think it will take a lot for GW to drop prices. I actually can't see it happening. What is happening is other companies are following their lead and raising prices while still being better value propositions.
www.arizton.com/market-reports/tabletop-games-market
The market forcast for our industry is predicting the tabletop games space is going to nearly double in value from 2022 - 2028 from USD 24.91 billion to 48.69 billion and while that is an all encompasing boardgames, wargames, rpgs etc, that doesn't seem like a market growth prediction fuelled by falling interests.
You are certain the person who has brought the most data to the table with that link, we will look into it. So we have had some push back on this one, for two reasons, we are the wholesome couple channel for some people and they basically tuned in for wholesome couple channel and got a domestic (paraphrasing but basically what they said) and a lot of people saying no my group is mostly young people.
So we are trying to figure out if it is a bubble thing (we were in a bubble) or if it is a regional or economic thing because we have noticed almost all the people giving big push back against this are American. Which isn't as represented in the people we talk to directly. So we are thinking on some things and formulating ideas - Cal
This is something I noticed awhile back as well. Games like heroquest and warhammer used to aim at kids for 10-16. Now no one is giving them really any other options other than the fortnights, etc.
I'm working on an IP that i hope will appeal to younger audiences and the goal is to make it simple and affordable.
What is the IP you are working on anything we can take a look at? - Cal
@@WhatareyouPaintingnow I'm trying to come up with something mixing sci-fi & fantasy that is easy and reasonably priced so that kids and people who have never played a TT can have fun and not be overwhelmed.
@@WhatareyouPaintingnow right now it is mostly in the early stages. I've only been working on it for a couple months. (Currently working on interesting play mechanics & faction design) I've done some solo playtesting, looking to involve a friend to get their input and see what their thoughts are.
I'm hoping to have a full prototype of the game within a year.
So, I’ve been watching a lot of warhammer content lately. Paintng miniatures seems really fun. The game itself is a bit of a mystery to me, So I looked into what I would need to play and when I saw the prices I basically went “HELL NO!”. I have since started looking into 3d printers. I play DnD with my friends and got started for free. We’ve gotten most of the books now, but we literally started with pen and paper. If they want new people in the hobby, they should capitalize on the DnD boom that’s been happening. They should offer cheap starter sets that don’t require putting together and painting miniatures. Right now the initial investment to get into this hobby is way to high. There is definitely an interest. Grimdank is doing well on tiktok for instance. But it ends there as far as official stuff goes. People who develop their own 3d printables are very popular and produce some amazing stuff. At this point they are better and cheaper then games workshop. No sprews, just painting and the artwork is incredibly detailed. As someone who’s just coming into this hobby, games workshop looks like a scam in comparison.
You are not alone in looking into the hobby and saying hell no with the pricing... - Cal
Your assumption does not match data that is publicly available (the data you can get from GW's annual shareholders report and their financials that they have to report to the UK government). It might be a localization anomaly. Here in the US and from what I have seen on my trips to the UK the hobby seems to be getting bigger than ever, and young new players abound in my location and others I have played at. So being that the Australian market is honestly the most expensive market for new players to get into GW also plays a big roll.
So yes we are Australian but we talk to ALOT of Europeans and this is why we made this video because those Europeans were saying the exact same thing the Australians were when we made those comments. I don't think it is a localization issue but I DO think America is different, based off the comments we have got. However taking a look at those annual reports the game itself is making less and less money and lending out their IP is making more and more. So two things can be true at once, they can be shrinking in some markets, growing in others, and making less money from the game but making more money in general. I don't know currently if it is an American issue or is it is an affluence issue. Because we have had comments from Austin Texas, California but one Midwestern state. But those commenters don't seem to be troubled by the price, which is to be quite frank a minority view
We would love to get more information from you, and I hope you don't take this as an insult but if you are often taking trips to the UK, do you think your view of the hobby may be coloured because you are well off?
My main thing I can’t get my head around is why Warhammer stores can’t sell their stuff for the same 21% off that other game stores do. Sure, it would be less profit, but I would actually buy from a Warhammer store then, not from an independent retailer.
Also, Underworlds would be the comparison for HeroQuest. $100 starter set, and different warbands are different colour plastic to make them easy to differentiate without painting them.
Warhammer Underworld is now 160 for each two team seasonal box. I believe the save an eternal starter at 100 but as far as I know the seasonal boxes take preference over them. As I said in another comment I really liked it but with price increase it was bit of hit the warbands going from 45 to 65 over the last few years was quite a hit
false. I started playing as an adult.
Ok Dwight
No major releases in 20 years also age of sigmar in 2015....darktide in 2022...legions imperials 2024, yhe old world 2024, space marine 2 2024, also kinda dates itself with "no tv adds" while being on youtube also i think the mass of content creators and animations like astartes really replaced tv my little brother dosnt know what the simpsons are but he can tell me all about markiplier and his fnaf playthroughs. i love the style of your content and the back and forth but dissagree with your point. Hope this didnt come across mean ❤
I got introduced to 40k as a legal adult and don't buy in the store mainly due to not having any nearby.
And due to being short on money...
Which, together with terrible health, is also the reason, that I havn't assembled and painted the starter box I bought...
I Strongly disagree with most of the points made in this video. Warhammer is more successful now than its ever been and the driving factor is a continuous influx of new players. Those new players are generally young adults, not children, who have grown up on video games and are looking to find a similar gaming experience but within their local community.
Its the older and more jaded players who are moving to 3d printing and 3rd party sources. A decade ago those same people would have been buying used armies on ebay instead and its having a marginal impact on GWs sales.
GW has also been putting out more intro level box games than ever. Warhammer quest, warcry, kill team, Underworlds, necromunda, etc.
Finally, if you take an objective look at the prices to play the game they havent really scaled up that much since the early 2000s back when metals were still prevelant. 10 metal infantry models were $50usd back by 2008, now most 10 model infantry boxes are $50. Ogre sized models came in single model blisters at $25, and boxes of 3 run at $60 now. The biggest difference now is that there are big $175 centerpeice models that didnt exist back then, but those arent necessary to play.
First fine to disagree we have zero problem with (civil disagreement obviously)
But we do know for fact that Games-Workshop heavily targeted children. You may be right about the 3D printing thing we have talked a lot about how some people treat 3D printing as a magic solution but we disagree on that see our Poorhammer video. However with your section paragraph I think you are just out right wrong we have done price comparisons like we did in the video. Historically Hero Quest was 30 dollars and currently adjusted for inflation it would be 74 and that would translate over 100 in AUD but every board game comparable is over 200 dollars AUD. So I think on the math of models they are just wrong. Its okay to disagree but we did look into it - Cal
@WhatareyouPaintingnow heroquest is a Hasbro collaboration oriented towards the general board game market, like monopoly. GW hasn't had the rights to it for decades. It's an anomaly in the entirety of GW catalogue. It didn't cost as much as the game had minimal components by modern board game standards and had pvc miniatures instead of HIPS. The reality is that metal, resin. And HIPS products have always been expensive. I don't understand how anyone, anywhere, ever thought it was a hobby for children.
I would disagree, 70%+ at my Warhammer store are 20 somethings, 15% teens, 15% 30+. New faces every time I'm in there.
Where are you located that hasn't been our experience or the people we talked to so we would like to know if we are the anomaly or if you are. Thanks for disagreeing with grace I hope you can see we are trying to do the same in kind - Cal
The store i was going to was in Murrieta CA. not rich, but an upper middle class area for sure.@@WhatareyouPaintingnow
CA is California? We are Australian so the state codes are little harder for us
Yeah, southern California. I cant find it now but the poorhammer podcast did a good episode a while back about ways to lower the cost/get new people into it.@@WhatareyouPaintingnow
Yep we know Poorhammer they shouted us out once and we did so in kind. But we talked about 3D printing
I wasn't introduced to warhammer or anything I'm into a now as a kid. I remember seeing gameplay of the space marine game when I was a kid and not being interested at all. I've knew about warhammer 40k since I was 7 but didn't have any interest in it until I was 20. Now I'm 21 and I'm really into painting SP minis, it's been my main hobby since about the start of this year
Okay so correct me if I am wrong but you validated Sunny's points in that there are no minis in the video games you only came to it later in life? - Cal
@@WhatareyouPaintingnow idk I can't really speak on the games/minis connection seeing as how I've never played any of the WH video games.
What got me into WH wasn't a boyish fascination with sci-fi action as a kid. It was actually a growing love of gothic beauty and fascism that had *started* when I was a kid but didn't come out until my early twenties. That's how I got into WH broadly.
I got into painting minis because SMs just look so cool and I love the feeling of looking at a completed mini!
So I got to disagree, based on my own anecdotal experience.
I got into WHFB in my 20's. GW has never really been aimed at children, it has always been expensive both in money and the time spent assembling/painting.
I own a shop and I see lots of twenty-somethings buying GW. Older people as well, but a lot of people in their 20's.
Though these people are "kids" to me, I have never seen an actual kid playing anything GW makes. On miniature night it is all early 20's to grognards like myself. The people in their twenties way outnumber the grognards at my shop. Again, I know this is all anecdotal.
May I ask where you/your shop are and is located? Because it has been our experience and the experience of many people we know that it is very similar to what we said.
But as someone who has worked for the company I do know that market to kids quite a bit and that is a core demographic of theirs at least back when I was with them, which is admittedly some time ago.
You aren't the first person to disagree and we are open to hearing the otherside - Cal
@@WhatareyouPaintingnow This is all in Austin, Texas. In the 90's, is when our group of early 20s got into it. We were already playing rpgs and some of us read comics. We saw some college kids playing 40k in the shop we patronized, but liked fantasy better. So we went with the fourth edition starter box.
Later in 2001 to around 2006, I worked for that same shop. Miniature night was mostly 40k, with one Confrontation and one Battletech table. Every person that played was at least nineteen with some others being in there 30s. On other nights, (Magic night, rpg night, etc), there were always a few kids. The young adults still outnumbered the kids, but there were a few 10 to 12 year olds there. Magic night had more teenagers. I never saw kids on miniature night. I don't think I ever sold any GW to anyone younger than 17.
Starting in 2014, it has been the same experience in my own store. Miniature night is mostly something GW (sometimes it is 40k, sometimes Kill Team, sometimes Underworlds.), with a few tables of X-Wing. There are never any kids there. On magic night and rpg night, there are kids(10-12). Magic still has a good percentage of teenagers. Kids are still the minority, but there are some on the other nights.
So on miniature nights in the 90s, 00s, and the 20s, it is young adults who are the majority. Not kids or grognards.
GW has always been overpriced compared to other hobbies and it continues to skyrocket. Magic seems cheaper, and it can be if you control yourself. The price of a starter pack and some boosters, or a rpg starter set has always/will always be cheaper than trying to collect an army from GW. You add to that having to buy paints and tools, then the time investment to actually complete the army. None of this has ever seemed like a good fit for anyone younger than at least high school age.
If GW is marketing to children who are too young to have a part time job, it seems about as effective as a steakhouse marketing to vegans. Again this all anecdotal. There could be tons of preteens playing GW in Austin, but they do not play or buy at my store.
You know based off the answers we get where people are disagreeing, they are in very rich parts of America, California and Austin Texas correct me if I am wrong about the city but it is currently experincing a boom correct?
When I saw the magic comment I had to laugh I used to be a GPT grinder and my brother won money and we talk about it in our Poorhammer episode.
So I wonder two things, is this success an American thing and is it a wealth thing.
Because everyone we have talked to has been a part of the Anglo Sphere outside of America. All of the British people, English, Irish, Scottish and Welsh, as well as some Germans and Scandinavians, and the finally us Australians. Ever time I have seen a contrary view on this it has been American. Do you think that is is possible that it is that?
@@WhatareyouPaintingnow The city is growing, it never seems to stop. There is lots of gentrification here.
I have never lived outside of America. As far as American kids and GW, it may have to do with the deep Puritan sickness that is baked into our our culture. Every now and then there is a scandal because some moron gets upset that his precious soft-headed child saw some nudity in a picture or sculpture at a museum. American parents seem less concerned with violence than sex, but Warhammer may go beyond what people consider acceptable. Paragraphs about piles of dead people, descriptions of cleaning off a skull as a trophy, Dark Eldar lifestyles, etc.
It could be a regional thing, whatever the cause. It could just be that culturally, miniature wargames are not family gaming here. Family gaming is monopoly, clue, battleship, and stratego. All the wargamers I see are young twenties playing other young twenties, just like I started. To me this has always made sense. It is the age where most people are not married, not parents, and have the small fortune it takes to have an army in Warhgammer.
You know we would love to have a conversation on this because it seems like there is a massive dived between the people we talked to before making this video and a lot of the Americans. Or at least the Americans commenting.
I feel like our video was still spot on... however, it may be a completely different story for America. It has made us think about talking about the divide between us because its interesting. Because the reason we made this video because everyone (and I mean every single person we had a deep conversation with) had a very similar experience based off what we heard. So we were trying to articulate that into a video and this was the result.
I wonder why there is such a divide - Cal
I didn't get into wargaming until my late 20s early 30s. Wish I had gotten into it earlier! Much funner then modern games
Where are you located may we ask? - Cal
@@WhatareyouPaintingnow the states
@@WeOnlyEatSoup Thanks, that fits into the new image we are seeing - Cal
Like I am getting my kid into it. Though he doesn't like the painting and assembling of models. He just wants to be able to sit down and just play the game. The one miniatures game that had the right idea to come out recently was the x-wing miniatures game. With pre assembled and prepainted minis that had a reasonably price starter set and sold in retail store like target and walmart, it was great and actually was one of a few Catalysts to get me back into warhammer. Games Workshop show come out with something similar. Something that looks amazing right out of the box and cost as much as a video game or two. That way a kid who got that game will look at other games workshop stuff and want to make the grey plastic stuff look like their retail box game.
A lot like what we are suggesting just a different route 🙂 glad to hear dad's being involved with their kids and their hobby - Cal
I'll support my local mom-and-pop hobby store, but it's been easily over a decade since I even stepped foot in a Warhammer store. I usually order my models from a preferred hobby retailer who seems to have cheaper stuff that's actually in stock.
That being said, once I finally finish this army, it'll be a while before I start another one. Your mentioning video games is apt. The instant gratification for a fraction of the price is tempting indeed. The only reason I don't fall back into that is because I don't like the idea that my primary source of fun depends on an internet connection, and I like to customize my characters too much to be stuck with someone else's design.
Yeah... I think their soft digital rights management of being always online really bit them in the behind for a lot of people! I mean its not about if people can get an internet connection or not, ALOT of people want that time to be their disconnect from reality let alone the internet. - Cal
Whilst I still actively follow the hobby and keep up with the lore, I haven't purchased a model since the early 2000's. Part of it is due to a complete lack of gaming groups beyond anything more than historical in my area but the larger part is the price of the hobby nowadays. It's not that I don't have disposable income but more a matter of competing interests, there are far more things I would rather spend that kind of money on before thinking about ludicrously overpriced plastic soldiers.
Sure there's plenty of people with circumstantial evidence of young people getting into the hobby but I don't know how they're getting 'enough' young people into the hobby to sustain it over the long term given that you pretty much need a full time job to be able to afford to properly take part in said hobby. I'd love to see the data on it but that data doesn't exist.
Yeah so a lot of people we talked to said something like the points we hit here and had similar experiences. I feel like there are new people coming in like you say but same as you said not enough - Cal
Fellow Aussie here too My eldest son has zero interest. My youngest has a small potential for getting into it. Even myself, i don't buy hardly any of the new stuff. I mostly collect vintage metal space wolves and Bretonnians. I'm chasing my nostalgia train and GW isn't scratching that itch with the modern stuff.
Great video as usual. Keep it up!
Thank you very much I feel like a lot of people have very similar feelings that's why we made this one because a lot of people have articulated, a similar feeling. So this was our response to that, so it is you and people like you that inspired it. So thank for your praise and...
I hope we did it justice - Cal
I’ve just returned from a 20 year break from the hobby and my Eldar army is looking pretty dated (Avatar of Khaine on a square base for the win!). Got the Leviathan box and other new sculpts, really enjoying building and painting them so far.
I hope to get my now 1-year-old son into the game eventually. Fingers crossed!
For that you might enjoy our video
Warhammer Dad
ua-cam.com/video/LaiGKYkFJ4M/v-deo.html
A lot of other parents found it useful, and good luck with your hobby adventure
@@WhatareyouPaintingnow I did, and shared it with my wife who also really liked it! I haven’t really come across this type of content from other channels, which is one of the reasons I subscribed.
your son is very good at reading script. Very impressive.
My Sunny 😎 - Cal
Bullshit take.
Totally agree Gw is about to become Harley Davidson...
I am not a bike person could you tell us more please? - Cal
@@WhatareyouPaintingnow ua-cam.com/video/EOwxxsPaogY/v-deo.html
Thanks, this video seems interesting and well presented - Cal
Harley Davidson gets by via a sales model designed to bilk its mostly old and/or retired fans of as much money as possible, while almost no young people are riding Harleys unless they're secondhand and they happen to be motorcycle mechanics, because guess what? Harley doesn't even make the best bikes, they just brand the heck out of everything they make and some geezer will buy it.
OH-God!!!
😓 💥🔫
Ha ha I love these little emoji stories - Cal
@@WhatareyouPaintingnow
You guys are a most interesting channel.
🔥🎸🔥
Keep rock'n!!!
We will, we hope you enjoy and you could really help us out by sharing this video, we took a bit of a risk breaking format and I don't think the algorithm like us doing that :/ - Cal
Y’all didn’t consider the mobile games. Literally the only Warhammer I’ve ever played was on my iPhone.
Console & PC gaming are getting eaten by mobile gaming to the point it hardly makes sense to make big budget titles for them without Marvel-level appeal. So it’s not surprising to see them leave that platform.
They need to partner with CMON and embrace the crowdfunding platforms… I mean seriously. Why has Space Hulk never had an expansion?
I am not sure about partnering with CMON because I think that would be a disaster but! It's totally fair to say we didn't consider mobile games - Cal
I totally agree with you about the cost of entry into Warhammer, but I don't see GW fading out in the next few decades.
Warhammer has historically been a word of mouth game, that's how I was introduced to it back in 5th ed. And that's back when you would hardly hear a peep from GW. Nowadays it's completely flipped. GW constantly communicates with its community, releasing FAQ's and data slates at least quarterly. And it still is advertised via word of mouth, it's just gone digital. Henry freaking Cavil got GW and Amazon to work out a deal for a show. I can see GW moving their animations to Amazon Prime as well. Creators like Bricky have gotten tons of attention for their video synopsis' about 40k, Vtubers especially. And they all draw in a large, younger audience.
I have no illusions that GW won't be reducing it's prices anytime soon, and people will always buy more warhammer. I always hope, bc I love the games and the minis, but I'm not holding my breath. we just have to wait and see.
So to a certain to extend it is hyperbole however we do think the point remains that without getting the next generation of gamers in it will slowly age out.
You're not wrong about it being a word of mouth game or them lowering their prices... However, I hope that the stop increasing their prices for awhile so we can have some breathing space.
However, I do disagree on one thing you said, that they communicate a lot... So communication requires a back and forth, it requires that one side listen to the other and we try hard to do that, we may not be the best at but we try. I don't actually think that Games-Workshop does that, I think they blast out information but they don't communicate, if you follow the difference here. They are better at informing people about stuff but don't actually communicate more. Two way communication if that is better. You're thoughts? - Cal
It's been said that GW will be a rules company very soon. Their product is even too expensive for adults. TBH it's gotten foolishly expensive. I wouldn't advise people buy any actual GW products. These are plastic toys, and I still need to retire someday.
Interesting... I have heard the exact opposite said by some people that it will stop being a rules company and instead become boutique model company... but yeah interesting idea
I was already 17 when I got into this stuff so I think age is a relative factor here?
Age will always be relative your right, we were saying where do you get your new customers from - Cal
All great points though as a new player the biggest problem I had was figuring out what the heck 40k actually is and what I need to play it. It took around 2 weeks of searching to understand why the Horus Heresy had its own miniatures, why the Indomitus box was only being sold on EBay, and why the rules download seemed woefully inadequate to play a full 40k game. And what the heck is Age of Sigmar anyway? 🧐 (they should have stuck with Warhammer Fantasy if you ask me)
Not to mention the shock of learning that what I wanted to buy could be out of stock for months on end or completely discontinued.
So yeah a standalone game you can buy at any store with all minis included sounds like a great intro assuming GW puts more thought behind it than they did with Space Marine the Board Game (US only? release).
Barring that their best hope might be the way that some of today's video games are so immersive that they almost feel like a second job and maybe that'll drive people to unplug and try an "analog" form of gaming. Hope GW has some kind of long term plan!
A lot of parents we talked to see Normie mom and Warhammer dad are interested in hobbies for just that reason, staying away from screens - Cal
I am 24 yo and start interesting in 40k year ago thanks to dawn of war 1
Yep, that's why I mentioned the video games, but the way we scripted it Sunny has a point (though it is our point) that there are no minis in there, there is a lot of extra steps that relies a lot on hope to turn people like yourself into hobbyists - Cal
I am a grognard being introduced to wargaming in the early 80s, Napoleonics, WWII Naval, WWI Air, Warhammer FB, Car Wars, what was then modern 1/600 armour, etc. Napoleonics is an old man’s war, no sexism intended (I only know 1 woman who plays). And wargaming has been ‘dying out’ since I first went to a club to play.
Individual games wax and wane, companies come and go, players stick around and new players start playing.
I voted with my $ and bought a 3D printer for the ease of printing terrain, WW1 figs in 15mm, modern fighting vehicles and recently an Ork, a Chaos Dwarf, a Dwarf and a Tomb Kings army for ToW, to join my older Empire army plus some new Space Communists to join my GW T’au. I am not buying any more of the GW models, unless I really like the model (TK swarm) but I buy their books.
They live, they die by their own hubris. I have rule books going back to WFB3 and even if GW shuts shop, I can play any edition I want if I can keep the life support going on my mates. Or I can play crowd sourced editions.
1 of my kids plays 40K and Kill Team, hence the T’au, and so far none of the grand kids, but while the family chat is filled with Taytay pics and talk, there is enough wargaming in there to keep me busy.
Long post to say, it is never a good idea to rest your entire income on a single modality, diversify your supported games and companies, as the hobby evolves. Older gamers tend to have more disposable cash for their hobby, younger players will always need gateway games.
Oh yeah I totally agree with most of what you said but, the issue here on UA-cam is Warhammer is king but also... we felt as if this is true and that a lot of people have said something very similar so we wanted to try and make a video which expresses that view. Because we actually want Warhammer/GW to succeed but we also want fresh new people.
And well done on voting with your wallet, astonishingly few people do that - Cal
Don't forget 40k was recently made fun of on South Park.
True enough but is a single South Park episode the same as a whole product line? That episode isn't exactly Lord of the Rings - Cal
Games Workshop games are priced at a level that only really young adults with disposable income and adults who are already in the hobby are willing to afford. Their are other miniature games out there that are more geared to younger audiences and more affordable. Hero quest was made in collaboration with Milton Bradley and the entire box was covered with MB trademark. GW went on to create warhammer quest in 95 and it was priced at a more premium price now that it was solely GW's. GW is hesitant to release anything miniature wise that would cheapen that premium branding they have. My thinking is that GW use the multitude of video games they release (Space Marine 2 is soon to release) and the upcoming Amazon show to try and interest younger folk into warhammer in the hopes they transition to wargamming in their twenties/teens. If GW wanted to release something with physical models to try and get younger generations into war games I feel they would need something that is not warhammer related so they could do things that made Hero Quest so great while not "cheapening" their current lines.
It's funny that they price themselves at that level, but their target demo in stores is sub-16. Oh sure they'll grab onto a witless young adult with more money than sense when they can, but they always targeted the 10-14 market hard from stores. A friend of mine worked at the GW store in Dublin for a few years and he always laughed about it. It wasn't their money, they just had to hook them enough so that they would pester mum and dad until they gave in. And don't fool yourself into thinking that they don't give in. I've known a lot of parents who balked at the price, but were still willing to fork it over because at least it was something physical, in the real world, getting them out socialising with real people.
@@farplaine I think you are correct that the stores and the demos are targeted to young kids. Not sure your location but in America I don't see many young kids in Warhammer or flgs in general unless they are there for trading card games and a few at ttrpg night with their parents. So if demo games are their only strategy to pull in younger audiences I think they need to make some adjustments. Your certainly not wrong about kids using parents money. It's how I got into Warhammer. Went to a hobby store for model cars with my dad ended up convincing him to get me a starterbox of Warhammer instead.
Or... we could play any number of other miniature wargames not made by GW. Some healthy competition would do wonders for the industry.
We do and have, however... they are some of our least successful videos, see the best game for painters
@@WhatareyouPaintingnow its a self perpetuating cycle. Warhammer is the most popular game, has the most brand recognition and therefore has the most videos. In order to get the hits and views, you need your video to get in front of people likely to watch that topic, so you have to feed the algorithm. In order to make a living the bigger channels are forced to keep making warhammer videos even though you see the passion for the topic might not always be there.
@@WhatareyouPaintingnow I'm sorry but if the call to action on this video is to help GW maintain their unhealthy market dominance, then I can't support that. I appreciate you're in a difficult situation, along with every other hobby UA-cam channel, and you've got to do what you've got to do.
I'm going to do what I like to do, which is play Kings of War and Infinity.
If GW are abandoning the Australian market, maybe a better call to action would be to promote alternatives?
Our call to action is for Games-Workshop to make more accessible games, and it is our sincere belief that if Games-Workshop fails most of the hobby market will go with it. We do promote other games but if that isn't enough for you so be it - Cal
I disagree. I got into the hobby last year as a 23 year old. Sure, I have been a massive fantasy nerd forever and that's what drew me to Age of Sigmar initially but not because of nostalgia. I was 2 y/o when Fellowship was released and only first watched it when I was 13 or 14. At that age my love for fantasy was already thriving for a myriad of reasons, but mainly books and later on, video games. Those are released every day. It's true that the hype for fantasy following the years of the theatrical release of LotR has died down, but there's still lots of kids growing up as nerds and through that pipeline they're later showing interest in wargaming. At least that's the more popular reason people started with wargaming/warhammer I hear from my peers.
In my main playing group, only 2/6 guys started as a kid. The rest were into fantasy for different reasons and just so happened to stumble upon Warhammer AoS.
So are you American? we have found that a lot of people who are very opposed to this idea are American, we formed this video largely around people who said the exact same thing to us across the globe but the majority of them were Australian and European. So we are trying to figure something out here.
And how did the rest of your group get into the hobby
@@WhatareyouPaintingnow I'm from germany actually! Most of us who haven't played as Kids already come from a DnD background.
I'm a DM and got myself a resin 3d printer for my campaign last year. I then also started printing AoS proxies and got into the hobby that way. One of my players was interested aswell and had previously used a GW mini as his character in our campaign so decided to give it a try. The 2 who did play as kids are brothers and know another guy from uni who had no notable background aside from being friends with those guys. Last regular of our group has a similar background as me and my mate, having played a fair bit of ttrpgs. Got wind of this new thing we were doing and joined us later.
The DnD/ttrpg Pipeline is among the most popular I hear from people. It might be a german thing though, as we have a competitor to DnD called DSA/Das Schwarze Auge/The Dark Eye that is really popular and has been outselling DnD since the 80s/90s. Nowadays, DnD might be more popular but DSA definitely kept the german ttrpg community alive.
I think most people develop a taste for fantasy/sci-fi/nerdy stuff through media such as books and/or video games, which leads to them playing a ttrpg, perhaps painting their first minis as a DM for encounters or as a Player for their characters. From there the transition is natural as you can't get around warhammer when buying paints, brushes and such
@@topkekbieri Interesting so you would be the first European that we have talked to who has had the counter view, but it has mostly been Anglo and Scandinavians we talked to which said almost all the same thing. Which is why we made the video. So may I ask is the area you come from well off?
We believe we may have been in a bubble because literally everyone we talked to in depth gave a similar sort of view to what we presented here but didn't know how to give it voice and so this was made to do that. But yeah you are the outlier here so we are trying to figure things out - Cal
Having kids not play on a video console is also worth something.
This is true - Cal
The Heroquest from Hasbro is great. Painted it and play it Biweekly. I am not getting the Point.
We are talking about Warhammer/Games-Workshop not Hasbro - Cal
Recasts are piracy but proxies are fine. This "orc in space armor" makes a fine Mekboy
Recasts are ingenuity, GW's prices are piracy
Point of fact, I started as a new player and collector in my 30s. The idea of assembling and then painting your toys was repugnant to me as a kid. And while I will become the new grognard at my flags the majority of players are twenty somethings, and their children.
Interesting, may I ask where you are located. This is a reoccurring theme in the disagreements, I want to figure if it is self-selection with our audience and the people we know or if it may be geographical - Cal
@@WhatareyouPaintingnow geographically I’m in the Midwest of the US. Locally many people turned off the electronics regularly for family game night even before the pandemic. During lockdown downs more ttrpgs and board games became even more popular taking wargaming along for the ride. The numbers have reverted maybe 20% since lockdowns were ended, but the flgs stores in the area have been expanding still. And their major revenue streams that have sustained their growth come from Warhammer and other wargames. Doubtless GW is at an inflection point where they risk repeating the mistakes of the past and this time there is a viable alternative in 3D printing but the broader hobby is still in a renaissance of sorts.
You know we are starting to see a trend everyone who has a view counter to this video which was made broadly because everyone we heard from had a very similar opinion but didn't know how to voice is American. Do you think that it may be that America hasn't been hit as hard by some economic woes (not that it hasn't and we try like guy trying to hide his attraction to his crush to avoid politics).
Because we have noticed that every single person who has disagreed with this point is American - Cal
@@WhatareyouPaintingnow so long as we’re making broad generalizations 1. I think Americans culturally are more apt to make their objections or disagreements known over the possibility of being seen as too polite. 2. I don’t think it’s a case of the US escaping global transitive inflation, (it’s all you hear about on the news is some OAP lamenting how expensive the world is compared to when they were young). 3. It may be that your perspective that Warhammer/wargaming is fueled by nostalgia is incorrect (or at least regional). The complexity of wargaming rules doesn’t lend itself to young children’s interests or comprehension sure, but the notion of living in or creating an idealized fantasy world in miniature (be it Napoleonic historical, Medieval/Renaissance fantasy, or Sci-Fi fantasy) and interacting with that world at some level certainly does. As does re-enacting, or larp on a larger scale. If a child sees mom or dad doing it and they invite the kids to have a good time with them, it’s not nostalgia driving that interaction. The brightly colored armies, and immersive tables filled with well modeled terrain (especially when you get your eyes down to table level) is just fun. Personally I entered the hobby from d&d, where I was a pen and paper only player. But unlike my youth the act of assembly and painting has become a meditative relaxation, and almost escapism as the chaos of the world fades away and my world becomes one inch tall and I try to paint that gem on the figures necklace. Still I know others that entered the hobby as it’s a game that appeals to their competitive nature or their military mindset as veteran service members and competitive gamers.
I am sorry I don't know what OAP is. We weren't trying to make generalizations with the American comment, we have just noticed a trend we get to talking and almost all of them are American and the reason we made this video is because everyone we talked to had almost the exact same thoughts and the video is a result of that. Trying to voice these peoples thoughts, but they are Australian and European - Cal