Another part of a video series from Wordonfire.org. Bishop Barron will be commenting on subjects from modern day culture. For more visit www.wordonfire.org/
I've pretty much been an agnostic/atheist for a while (even though I was raised RC) because I have had so many unanswered questions. Your videos have answered many of the questions I have had and after each video of yours I feel I am much closer to Catholicism, which is something I thought I would never say. I can't call myself a believer, but I'm not an atheist either. I'm somewhere in Limbo
I'm so grateful to have discovered Bishop Barron on UA-cam. He explains things so beautifully and simply for all to understand. No doubt, I've gotten closer to God because of these UA-cam videos. Thank you, Bishop Barron.
Of course God can "intervene" from time to time in order to signal his intentions dramatically. But that doesn't contradict the fact that his normal modus operandi is to allow the processes of nature to unfold according to their own rhythms. And this by no means amounts to Deism! I hold with Thomas Aquinas that God is intimately present to every expression of finitude, precisely as the ground of being.
Prayer Against Evil Dear Blessed Mother, we offer our prayers for all who plan evil against their fellow man, and ask that their hearts be filled with love from the Holy spirit. Amen.
Whilst I wholly agree with your heart felt prayer for the betterment of man. I feel i would be negligent if I did not point out that jesus instructs us to prayer to the Father and not His mother.
"How can a finite mind possibly judge the decisions of an infinite mind? " It can't. And it can't assess whether the infinite mind is infinitely benevolent or infinitely cruel. "And why do you think biological death is the worst calamity?" I doubt it's a recommendable line of defence for murder cases.
@Order Of The Black Cross - You're right: it is usually called "blind belief", i.e. no rational criticism is allowed there. Textual material is given as unquestionable paradigm, and one unconditionally accepts the lack of logic and consistency therein. I agree with you that there is no point in discussing when the only answer is "my book says so."
@Order Of The Black Cross - If something produces suffering in myself or others, I simply try to avoid it. I choose empathy over and above cruelty and selfishness. A self-contradictory collection of texts is not necessarily helpful in that regard.
@Order Of The Black Cross - I didn't mention any "non rational animal senses". The Bible is indeed self-contradictory - which is not necessarily a shortcoming. If you do some research, you will find websites where they are collected.
- You seem to say that the capacity to do evil is necesary for our free will (and that this is a good thing to have, even if it causes harm) ... but you say that god does not have this capacity. Does he not have this sort of free will.. and wouldn't that mean it is better to not be able to harm? - A big miss in this reasoning of 'bringing about greater good' is that you never mention it is a bold assumption, completly against all evidence. If we cannot justify our reasons to think there is good in the long run... the assertion that is will become good is not a rational conclusion. it is blind faith.
@@PGBurgessAs Catholics, our understanding of the world is not about reason alone. But reason in light of scripture. We know that God permits moral evil to allow a greater good. How do we know this? Because Christ, the New Adam, gave himself up to be crucified that the salvation of the world may be possible. The greatest evil brought about the highest good. God allowed the people of Israel to be dispossessed of their homeland to reveal to them the spiritual darkness they were in. Far from God. But we know that the exile ended, and God’s people returned to the Holy Land with a newfound vigor in their faith. Your assertion that this is blind faith, as if we had nothing to turn to for answers about this reality is simply untrue. As for asking if God can do evil, I think that’ll be a discussion for another time. I know the answer, but I don’t want to type several paragraphs. Now you know what we Catholics believe, and I sincerely want the best for you. Have a good day.
Excellent video, as always. Another perspective is from our wonderful Pastor John: he said the right question for Catholics is not "Why did something bad happen" - the right question is "What is my response to that bad event or thing?"
Thanks for the video Bishop Barron. Another thing that I think helps deal with this problem is that if one accepts belief in the divine, it is then possible to believe in another existence beyond the one we experience in this universe. If that is the case, then as Bob Dylan once said, "Death is not the end." If death is not the end, then death in this life, although it seems horrible and unjust at times, really is of no consequence. So people who say, "How could a just God allow this suffering to occur?" really have no argument if those people now exist in some other dimension. And what if as a result of a natural disaster, the lives of survivors were transformed and they realized what was truly important in life and turned their lives to God. Maybe these souls would never have changed without the tragedy they experienced. So from a salvific point of view, allowing natural disasters makes sense in that often in tragedies, people do reorient their lives toward God. I just never really hear anyone approach it this way. But I feel like as believers, when people say how can a just God allow these tragedies to occur, a valid response is "So what. If God is real then these souls are now with the divine in some existence more beautiful and perfect than we could ever imagine."
There is not contradiction here at all! As the Romans said long ago, "corruptio optimi pessima" (the corruption of the best is the worst). It is precisely because the devil is (and remains) such a magnificent creature that his corruption is so terrible and destructive.
Great video Father!!! it gave me a better understanding of this issue and it strenghened my faith. There is a Korean idiom called "새옹지마 (sae ong ji ma)" and the story behind it is the Chinese story you talked about. The meaning of this idiom is "Irony of fate; blessing in disguise"
Well, yes, God's ways are always mysterious to us. But that doesn't mean for a moment that they are capricious or irrational. Consider how undergoing surgery appears to a three year old.
Thank you Bishop Barron.i learned alot. Please pray for my other my other teachers. Father Todd Unger and sister Mary Butimar. Who I can never repay there kindness. I'm humble and greatfull. Wade.
@rnoodle3 Well friend, that's a very old theory. It's called gnosticism, and it was very effectively refuted by St. Irenaeus in the 2nd century. Take a look at his Adversus Haereses for the details.
Bishop Barron is wonderfully eloquent and explains difficult subjects so well. When he was telling the Chinese saying this came to my mind (totally unrelated to what the Bishop was saying): Tax Inspector: "You have to pay me $5k tax." Me:"we'll see....." 😀
@badpanda84 I suppose I should be used to it by now, but I'm still amazed that people think slander is a legitimate way to enter into a public conversation. I mean, really, how would you feel if, in a public forum, I insisted that you must be gay?
Couldn't one say that without the knowledge or experience of evil and suffering we would not be able to experience joy. For example, if nothing bad ever happened, you will not experience joy when something good happens because you expect a good thing to happen. If good and bad things can happen, when something good happens, you will experience joy because you were not necessarily expecting a good thing to happen.
@adstanra, A very thorough examination of conscience and the ultimate judgment of God will determine those who are culpable of the sin of disbelief and those who were invincibly ignorant.
No! Free process is something like free will. God allows both, for he doesn't want a universe that is simply a puppet, either morally or physically. But that is not at all tantamount to saying that God has "distanced" himself from the world. In point of fact, his creative providence is at work at all times and in all things.
@BalladoftheWindfish Well friend, there is only so much I can do in one brief video. And it is not the only video I've done on this problem. Look at the Faith Clips series and the particular piece on the problem of suffering.
@nicocap24 Sure. Satan is evil precisely in the measure that his will and mind are twisted away from the good. He can influence others by inducing that same sort of non-being in them.
Thank you Bishop Barron for this explanation of good and evil. However, the story of Job is wraped up in the end where everything is restored to him that was lost. That does not happen to most of us living this unpredictable life.
Not even in the story of Job was everything restored to him. In his omnipotence God could have brought his slain children back to life, but instead only "blessed" Job with new ones, as if children were replaceable commodities. And I think most of the credit for the work goes to Job's wife in that case anyway.
@Juan Flores Rights are social agreements, not fundamental laws of the universe. If God takes life it's only because nobody has the power to stop him, and that just makes him a thug.
@Juan Flores Good and bad being things we decide upon or derive from biological impulses doesn't make them useless or nonexistent. It's a popular theistic claim that good and bad can only come from some absolute god, but there's neither evidence nor sound reasoning for that. And besides, your own claim that God has the right to take lives indiscriminately while others do not just identifies good and bad as relative and subjective in your own worldview, and not as absolutes. You've eliminated any perfect standard yourself by saying God can have different standards from ours. In any case, whether my moral standards come from an absolute source or not, they still are what they are. And I can tell you they don't include admiring someone who tells Satan to go ahead and murder people just to prove a point. I find your rationalizations for this horrific story frankly repulsive. Fortunately, the story is fiction, and the petty, callous, and insecure god described in it is almost certainly fictional as well.
@Juan Flores When you say that God alone has the right to take life, you're applying a different moral standard to God than to anyone else. If killing an innocent person is morally bad in an absolute sense, then that moral standard applies to God as well as to anyone else. Authority is a social agreement just as much as rights are, so you don't get to claim God is exempt from your own moral absolutes because of his "authority". Any god that exists might have the power to kill people with impunity, but rights and authority only exist among those who agree to recognize and respect them. There's no evidence for meaning, purpose, or morality being objectively real absolutes in the first place, only religious assertions that they must be so, along with the condescending assumption that any other kind is worthless. Show me a scientific observation of "meaning", "morality", or "authority" outside of human discourse, please. My assessment of the immoralities in the story of Job are based upon Christianity's own assertions of concepts like compassion and justice. Christians claim God hates the wicked and yet here he is not only having a casual conversation with the source of wickedness, but giving Satan explicit permission to slaughter the children of a man whom the story states in the very first verse was upright and blameless. The god in this story fails by Christianity's own claims and standards. By the way, the inventors of Judeo-Christianity and its modern adherents are the ones who anthropomorphized God, not me.
@Fr. Barron: We have both a Heavenly Father and Heavenly Mother. We are literally their spiritual offspring; We see God as holy, wise and benevolent and (unlike the biblical Jehovah), God allows their children the choice to "walk away" without any fear of condemnation. We commune privately with God in the Sanctuaries in our homes, not in a church building. True worship is the imitation of God's goodness toward humanity, as demonstrated by Yeshua. I could go on, myself! Thanks! God's love to you!
That was a great video, I myself have to admit I wonder why God allows bad things to happen to people more specifically believers. But as you illustrate our foresight is very short and we can't predict how the perceived luck of the situation will have future impact.
@adstanra You're raising our old problem of ultimate vs. contingent causality. It's quite right to say that God is not one fussy cause among many, intervening to direct the process of evolution (or any natural process for that matter). God is the reason why there is something rather than nothing, and hence his causal influence "stretches from end to end mightily and orders all things sweetly." But precisely because he is not "a" cause among many, he does not compete with natural causes.
Somehow I get the feeling that 72mespo, while arguing about God not intervening, is the type of person who would turn around and proclaim disgust at God ordering the genocide of the wicked nations in the promised land (I get that a lot on UA-cam). I think the main problem is that the questioners don't read the Bible to see that God very well does stop extreme wickedness, but he very rarely stops the 'minor' things of nature. But, great video Fr. Barron.
@onethrown Don't be silly. To love is to will the good of the other. God loves himself, because he is the supreme good, and all other things in the measure that they participate in him. When you truly love someone else, you do indeed share in the divine life.
Regardless of how people view God or think of him. We Catholic Christians have to bear in mind that God is merciful, kind, loving and forgiving. Even if i hear a report of a earth quake somewhere around the world, I'm not saying that God is a angry deity but rather showing his divine wrath. And why does God allow evil? Well because of free will. We humans have free will. We can either praise and worship God and be in his dwelling place of safety. Or we can live our own lives without him and commit any type of sin. It's own choice but the real right choice is to praise and worship God because he created us.
@C45SAA Friend, what if you kept quoting from your third-grade science book as evidence that physics is simplistic? I'd tell you to read Einstein and Stephen Hawking. Well, you keep quoting from your bad childhood instruction in Catholicism as evidence that the Catholic Church is wicked. It's time to read more serious people! It's time to grow up in your faith!
We must remember that God is Love, but also God is a just judge who will separate the righteous from the wicked. Any time in the Old Testament God causes death, it is in response to wickedness, oppression, and injustice. God's love is a burning zeal to set things right. Christians typically understand these passages you mentioned tropologically or allegorically to point to the need to avoid sin. So the death of the wicked isn't necessarily wicknedness, but the justice of God manifested.
@onethrown What that passage means is that God is the sovereign Lord of his creation, presiding over both weal and woe. Evil, since it is a species of non-being cannot be "created." God produces the good and permits evil so as to bring about a greater good.
I'm no theologian, but permitting ≠ being the causal ground of evil, especially if we define evil as a lacking, not as a being having existence or cause, i.e. evil is merely the lack of good, not an entity in itself. This lacking is what our fallen state alludes to. This "fallen-ness" is the result of our free choices not to conform our lives to God's commandments. So, to sum it up, *we* made ourselves sick, and God wants to help us heal. Heartening.
In 1975-76 there was an earthquake in an Italian village. The priest was on vacation out of town. The local church collapsed on Sunday morning When the church was full for mass. Many many died. The priest rushed home and was sifting thru the rubble. A reporter asked him how he could beleive in a God who would allow this? The priest said “God had his own way of working, his own way of testing the faithful.”
Spiritually, I understand why evil happens my biggest struggle is if we live in a world where there is disease, disasters, and other suffering not caused by free will then I don’t see how we as human beings should have to risk being eternally punished.
The problem here, friend, is that "matter" and "energy" are infinitely variable, which means that the state in which they find themselves, at any given moment, needs to be explained. But the properly unconditioned source of contingency must be that which contains within itself the very reason for its own existence. It must, therfore, be purely actual. And this is why neither "matter" nor "energy" can be identified as the Creator.
I'll see too much cause i was at starting wanting help to God with all My Heart and i was trying little to little someones and i'm surprised that too much has passed only don't want to be selfish and anticipate that people must to know and recognize how much God loves us, and give us the Earth like share his hapiness with us but not only at Earth also at Heaven, and this Earth is awesome from Beloved God too the Heaven, all is from Him so we must accept if He wants take back his Earth and send us at Heaven, but if we don't knows and love him how can to live with him. He loves us more than we can expect so i hope He prepares the different ways for everyone get be Save with God at his time. 😇😇😇 God bless all! God loves us! Ever
@adstanra Sure there is! Everything is proceeding according to God's mysterious designs. The point is that Job can't possibly understand the details of the plan and therefore he is invited to trust. And punishment in the Bible is always for a good purpose, for it is meant to bring Israel to repentance.
@adstanra, It's certainly a struggle, the Church has spoken against Hell not being eternal. I strive to live faithful to the Church even when it's difficult to do that. I will have to find out if my faith is true or not when I die. Life is tough sometimes, it's full of mysteries, sometimes we don't see the whole picture, I certainly don't, I'm only human, after all.
I thought for a while, looking at some posts of the Bishop, that he might have had some original and possibly compelling arguments, but this video was the end. His defence of God's permitting of undesirable human or natural phenomena - that there must (MUST!) be a greater good to follow that we humans can't see - is both patronising and desperate. It has all the hallmarks of a man who was born a Catholic and has ever since spent his considerable intellect in reading backwards from that learned belief.
I'm sorry friend, but that's so simplistic. Let me ask you one question: how did you empirically verify the proposition that only empirically verifiable things are true? Your very principle is something very real, but it doesn't correspond to an empirically verifiable state of affairs.
Ditto to what factionxvt408x said. Like anyone else, I struggle with the issue of suffering, most particularly when it affects me :), but one thing that really helps me is not trying to understand it, but coming to the realization of how much I DON'T understand it because it's beyond my ability to predict how events will ultimately play out. For some reason, this helps bring me a certain measure of peace....at least so far.
@goldenram27 I don't see why so many people get tripped up here. The principle is not "everthing has a cause;" the principle is "every contingent thing has a cause." A properly non-contingent, uncaused reality, whose very nature it is to be, is the conclusion of the demonstration. To ask "what caused God?" is to betray the fact that you haven't grasped the point of the argument. And the "universe" isn't eternal, since it's in time. Eternity is not endless time, but beyond time.
"Will see' is the only possible answer in any time in ups and downs of human history. The best way remaining in Christian faith is only 'Jesus' who had suffered so much, and not go beyond about all mighty and all known God. It is forever mystery, no scholar neither no philosopher, no one. It is mystery and we never stop curious about it. So, the life makes continually interesting.
@rnoodle3 Creation, Incarnation, the Church, the sacraments, apostolic authority, the saints, the Mass, the real presence of Christ in the eucharist, Mary.... Shall I go on?
@TheEvolvedMind Well creation and evolution are totally different realities. Creation is the relationship that obtains between Being Itself and contingent beings. It is a perpetual, ongoing affair. Evolution names the process by which life forms unfold and develop over time. God undergirds and guides that process, as he does everything else.
What you are referring to, raping and molesting, is not promoted within the Catholic Church. I agree whole hardily with your disgust to those involved and to those who through inaction facilitated there continuation. For me, that does not destroy my belief in God, or the historicity of the Catholic Church; a church with many of the worst sinners and saints; this may seem like a contradiction to outsiders but I see it as a witness. I just wish this stuff didn't happen, the fact however is that it did and blaming the Catholic Church is like saying all humans are totally evil when we know this is not so.
@adstanra, The fact that we have numerous contributing factors that our will dwells upon and is persuaded by does not mean that the will is not free. The will obviously does not operate in vacuum, but that does not mean it is bound to any particular action or thought on account of those factors that influence it. The will always has motives presented to it, but it freely chooses between these different motives and decides to think/act upon them. Your objection does not come too bear at all.
@onethrown The whole point of what I'm saying is, "How do we distinguish between what one CAN do, and what one SHOULD do?" You have conflated "can" and "should," which I believe is the inevitable result of denying that a Transcendent Voice has spoken to mankind, whether in human nature, or prophetic revelations, or even Divine Incarnation, or all or the above. I believe this Voice has spoken. Those who deny this are left only with what they CAN do, with no way of ascertaining what they SHOULD do
You probably meant "what most about Catholicism do you like"? And for me its definitely the Eucharist i.e. the idea even that the Infinite God would want full and substantial union with me, filling me with All His Bounty as far as a finite creature can enjoy is simply overwhelming
@goldenram27, hence the question of what created God is a disregarding of the argument at hand. Nothing causes God, God exists by necessity, He is His own reason for being. A necessary being exists because it is necessary, not because anything caused it, it is its own reason for being.
The problem described is only a problem when the world is seen from a point of duality. As Thomas Merton said: "You have to experience duality for a long time until you see it’s not there."
@goldenram27, "faith seeking understanding.", "we believe so that we might understand", divine revelation motivates trying to understand it and trying to reconcile the the faith with what we know by intuition or by the physical/philosophical truths of the natural world around us. You are a lucky one. I do not fully understand Catholic theology, nor do I think one can know it well without profound experiences of God and profound wisdom.
The Chinese parable was exposited in a scene in the movie "Charlie Wilson's War", a comedy/drama roughly based on the eponymous Congressman's efforts in the '80s to aid Afghanistan in their struggle against the Soviets. It's an enjoyable movie that's a few years old now, but correlates somewhat with the theme of this video. Given your penchant for film review it made me wonder if you'd seen it and what your thoughts might be?
@TheMythus It's a subtle distinction but an important one: God doesn't "do" evil that good may come of it (for that would make him Machiavellian); rather, he allows certain evils in order to bring about goods that couldn't exist any other way. Without the deaths of lots of animals, you and I wouldn't be alive. Without the cruelty of Hitler, there would not be the unique form of holiness that we see in Maximilian Kolbe and Edith Stein.
Time for your friendly neighbourhood atheist to drop by. Thank you, Fr Barron for your best UA-cam clip in a long time. I really liked the points you made regarding our inability to see, forsee or understand lines of consequences of an act or event. But regarding evolution, is this the difference between your "theistic evolution" and creationism? That God ALLOWS evolution to take place vs creationists view of a DIRECT, CREATING God? But then agian, how does the soul fit into the whole thing? :)
@AntoniusbBlock Why in the world would it be "incompatible" with the miraculous?! The God who established the order and rhythm of nature cannot, for his own purposes, on very rare occasions, interrupt that order?
@goldenram27 I didn't intend to return to this blog, but I can't resist (where is my free will?)! As Christians believe that Jesus is both fully human and fully divine, so historically the Church has upheld the divine and human natures of Scripture. The biblical writers and editors were not merely instruments in the hand of God; God designed and utilized the unique contribution of each human author/editor, warts and all. I don't pretend to understand all this scientifically. I will to believe.
@adstanra, depends who's reason, and what kind of right reasoning goes into determining what is right and just and proper and true. The question of what is proper reason is a deeper philosophical question. Luckily however many of us carry over the general Judeo-Christian western ideas of justice here, so dialog is made a bit easier, though modernism causes a bit of a gap between some terms and forms of thinking.
@adstanra, I never said my vice is overeating, I said a vice like over eating unless I over spoke. My vices include lust, wrath, greed, gluttony, the list goes on and on. I have no idea what the laws of physics have to do with moral perfection. As a Physics major and possible philosophy major I have trouble contemplating how the two fields interact exactly.
Does my way way of thinking about God is wrong and sin against God or Jesus? I am very confused about this matter. Watching and experiencing all sorts of suffering going through, can't help but to conclude not to think too much about. Thank you for your teaching.
@goldenram27, I accepted the notion of sin from the basis that one ought to be punished for what one does wrongly, regardless if whether one's injustices are known to others or not. My conscience stung me, and it continued to sting me, that's why I believed in the notion of sin.
@adstanra, you say by definition a human would freely choose happiness over suffering, but that simply isn't the case for many wicked persons who corrupt their souls by pursuing and delighting in evil vices. Our souls become habituated to delighting in evil if we allow them, therein if they die they die with their wicked desires as their eternal desire, instead of God.
a daring video - for a lot of people it might come across as an abstract metaphysical rationalisation away from the horrible facts - i wouldn't like to say to Japanase mother who lost her son: We'll see - maybe it will be a blessing on the other hand maybe the thought that there is divine providence and that even such a tragedy could make sense in the eyes of god - this thought might (only might) help some people with their pain - there is no solace from an absolute meaningless disaster
I've pretty much been an agnostic/atheist for a while (even though I was raised RC) because I have had so many unanswered questions. Your videos have answered many of the questions I have had and after each video of yours I feel I am much closer to Catholicism, which is something I thought I would never say. I can't call myself a believer, but I'm not an atheist either. I'm somewhere in Limbo
Not sure if you still use this account but how are things now? You should check out his other stuff if you haven't!
Take Pascal's Wager :)
Hi, we need an update!
I'm so grateful to have discovered Bishop Barron on UA-cam. He explains things so beautifully and simply for all to understand. No doubt, I've gotten closer to God because of these UA-cam videos. Thank you, Bishop Barron.
Of course God can "intervene" from time to time in order to signal his intentions dramatically. But that doesn't contradict the fact that his normal modus operandi is to allow the processes of nature to unfold according to their own rhythms. And this by no means amounts to Deism! I hold with Thomas Aquinas that God is intimately present to every expression of finitude, precisely as the ground of being.
Another excellent, profound commentary on a difficult topic.
Prayer Against Evil
Dear Blessed Mother, we offer our prayers
for all who plan evil against their
fellow man, and ask that their hearts be
filled with love from the Holy spirit. Amen.
Honestly, why not just pray to the Blessed Father?
Whilst I wholly agree with your heart felt prayer for the betterment of man. I feel i would be negligent if I did not point out that jesus instructs us to prayer to the Father and not His mother.
Dear holy allah forgive us of our sins. Amen
How can a finite mind possibly judge the decisions of an infinite mind? And why do you think biological death is the worst calamity?
"How can a finite mind possibly judge the decisions of an infinite mind? "
It can't. And it can't assess whether the infinite mind is infinitely benevolent or infinitely cruel.
"And why do you think biological death is the worst calamity?"
I doubt it's a recommendable line of defence for murder cases.
@Order Of The Black Cross - You're right: it is usually called "blind belief", i.e. no rational criticism is allowed there. Textual material is given as unquestionable paradigm, and one unconditionally accepts the lack of logic and consistency therein. I agree with you that there is no point in discussing when the only answer is "my book says so."
@Order Of The Black Cross - If something produces suffering in myself or others, I simply try to avoid it. I choose empathy over and above cruelty and selfishness. A self-contradictory collection of texts is not necessarily helpful in that regard.
@Order Of The Black Cross - I didn't mention any "non rational animal senses".
The Bible is indeed self-contradictory - which is not necessarily a shortcoming. If you do some research, you will find websites where they are collected.
@Order Of The Black Cross Did I say that I believe in "naturalism"? - whatever you mean by that -
What makes the demonic evil is precisely the twisting and distorting of an angelic will. Blessings on you in your theological studies!
- You seem to say that the capacity to do evil is necesary for our free will (and that this is a good thing to have, even if it causes harm) ... but you say that god does not have this capacity. Does he not have this sort of free will.. and wouldn't that mean it is better to not be able to harm?
- A big miss in this reasoning of 'bringing about greater good' is that you never mention it is a bold assumption, completly against all evidence. If we cannot justify our reasons to think there is good in the long run... the assertion that is will become good is not a rational conclusion. it is blind faith.
@@PGBurgessAs Catholics, our understanding of the world is not about reason alone. But reason in light of scripture. We know that God permits moral evil to allow a greater good. How do we know this? Because Christ, the New Adam, gave himself up to be crucified that the salvation of the world may be possible. The greatest evil brought about the highest good. God allowed the people of Israel to be dispossessed of their homeland to reveal to them the spiritual darkness they were in. Far from God. But we know that the exile ended, and God’s people returned to the Holy Land with a newfound vigor in their faith. Your assertion that this is blind faith, as if we had nothing to turn to for answers about this reality is simply untrue.
As for asking if God can do evil, I think that’ll be a discussion for another time. I know the answer, but I don’t want to type several paragraphs.
Now you know what we Catholics believe, and I sincerely want the best for you. Have a good day.
The story of the Farmer is one of my favorites. I discovered it when reading Zen Koans.
Wow, father this is probably one of the best videos you've made. Deeply philosophical. The ending proverb was especially great.
Excellent video, as always. Another perspective is from our wonderful Pastor John: he said the right question for Catholics is not "Why did something bad happen" - the right question is "What is my response to that bad event or thing?"
Father Barron, thank you for doing what you are doing. My prayers are with you Praised be Jesus Christ!
Thanks Fr. Barron! You Rock - LOL! :) Continuing to pray and thank God for your awesome and much needed ministry!!
Thanks for the video Bishop Barron. Another thing that I think helps deal with this problem is that if one accepts belief in the divine, it is then possible to believe in another existence beyond the one we experience in this universe. If that is the case, then as Bob Dylan once said, "Death is not the end." If death is not the end, then death in this life, although it seems horrible and unjust at times, really is of no consequence. So people who say, "How could a just God allow this suffering to occur?" really have no argument if those people now exist in some other dimension. And what if as a result of a natural disaster, the lives of survivors were transformed and they realized what was truly important in life and turned their lives to God. Maybe these souls would never have changed without the tragedy they experienced. So from a salvific point of view, allowing natural disasters makes sense in that often in tragedies, people do reorient their lives toward God.
I just never really hear anyone approach it this way. But I feel like as believers, when people say how can a just God allow these tragedies to occur, a valid response is "So what. If God is real then these souls are now with the divine in some existence more beautiful and perfect than we could ever imagine."
There is not contradiction here at all! As the Romans said long ago, "corruptio optimi pessima" (the corruption of the best is the worst). It is precisely because the devil is (and remains) such a magnificent creature that his corruption is so terrible and destructive.
A great explanation Bishop which makes a lot of sense to me. Thank your
Great video Father!!! it gave me a better understanding of this issue and it strenghened my faith. There is a Korean idiom called "새옹지마 (sae ong ji ma)" and the story behind it is the Chinese story you talked about. The meaning of this idiom is "Irony of fate; blessing in disguise"
Thank you, thank you, thank you! For all your videos!
Well, yes, God's ways are always mysterious to us. But that doesn't mean for a moment that they are capricious or irrational. Consider how undergoing surgery appears to a three year old.
@Dennis Plum Molestation is a result of free will- people are allowed to make their own decisions, some of which including harming others.
In the wake of horrible earthquake here in Croatia, these are the words of comfort.
Thank you Bishop Barron.i learned alot. Please pray for my other my other teachers. Father Todd Unger and sister Mary Butimar. Who I can never repay there kindness. I'm humble and greatfull. Wade.
Excellent, excellent hope given here! Let us hold fast to it.
@rnoodle3 Well friend, that's a very old theory. It's called gnosticism, and it was very effectively refuted by St. Irenaeus in the 2nd century. Take a look at his Adversus Haereses for the details.
stunningly brilliant! thank you!!!
God bless Father Barron you are truly the instrument of God
Great one bishop this touch my soul
Bishop Barron is wonderfully eloquent and explains difficult subjects so well.
When he was telling the Chinese saying this came to my mind (totally unrelated to what the Bishop was saying):
Tax Inspector: "You have to pay me $5k tax."
Me:"we'll see....." 😀
Because God is the lord of the whole of being and the whole of life--and we are decidedly not!
@C45SAA As I've told you before, friend, it's high time that you embraced an adult version of the faith.
Very well explained Father Barron.
@badpanda84 I suppose I should be used to it by now, but I'm still amazed that people think slander is a legitimate way to enter into a public conversation. I mean, really, how would you feel if, in a public forum, I insisted that you must be gay?
Couldn't one say that without the knowledge or experience of evil and suffering we would not be able to experience joy. For example, if nothing bad ever happened, you will not experience joy when something good happens because you expect a good thing to happen. If good and bad things can happen, when something good happens, you will experience joy because you were not necessarily expecting a good thing to happen.
thanks for your response.
Such a helpful video.
@adstanra, A very thorough examination of conscience and the ultimate judgment of God will determine those who are culpable of the sin of disbelief and those who were invincibly ignorant.
Its time to revisit this
No! Free process is something like free will. God allows both, for he doesn't want a universe that is simply a puppet, either morally or physically. But that is not at all tantamount to saying that God has "distanced" himself from the world. In point of fact, his creative providence is at work at all times and in all things.
Please do a part 2 to this. Please explain why God intervienes in some things but not others.
@BalladoftheWindfish Well friend, there is only so much I can do in one brief video. And it is not the only video I've done on this problem. Look at the Faith Clips series and the particular piece on the problem of suffering.
@nicocap24 Sure. Satan is evil precisely in the measure that his will and mind are twisted away from the good. He can influence others by inducing that same sort of non-being in them.
Thank you Bishop Barron for this explanation of good and evil. However, the story of Job is wraped up in the end where everything is restored to him that was lost. That does not happen to most of us living this unpredictable life.
Anthony Brown That is...if you think this life is the end of the story.
Not even in the story of Job was everything restored to him. In his omnipotence God could have brought his slain children back to life, but instead only "blessed" Job with new ones, as if children were replaceable commodities. And I think most of the credit for the work goes to Job's wife in that case anyway.
@Juan Flores Rights are social agreements, not fundamental laws of the universe. If God takes life it's only because nobody has the power to stop him, and that just makes him a thug.
@Juan Flores Good and bad being things we decide upon or derive from biological impulses doesn't make them useless or nonexistent. It's a popular theistic claim that good and bad can only come from some absolute god, but there's neither evidence nor sound reasoning for that.
And besides, your own claim that God has the right to take lives indiscriminately while others do not just identifies good and bad as relative and subjective in your own worldview, and not as absolutes. You've eliminated any perfect standard yourself by saying God can have different standards from ours.
In any case, whether my moral standards come from an absolute source or not, they still are what they are. And I can tell you they don't include admiring someone who tells Satan to go ahead and murder people just to prove a point. I find your rationalizations for this horrific story frankly repulsive. Fortunately, the story is fiction, and the petty, callous, and insecure god described in it is almost certainly fictional as well.
@Juan Flores When you say that God alone has the right to take life, you're applying a different moral standard to God than to anyone else. If killing an innocent person is morally bad in an absolute sense, then that moral standard applies to God as well as to anyone else. Authority is a social agreement just as much as rights are, so you don't get to claim God is exempt from your own moral absolutes because of his "authority". Any god that exists might have the power to kill people with impunity, but rights and authority only exist among those who agree to recognize and respect them.
There's no evidence for meaning, purpose, or morality being objectively real absolutes in the first place, only religious assertions that they must be so, along with the condescending assumption that any other kind is worthless. Show me a scientific observation of "meaning", "morality", or "authority" outside of human discourse, please. My assessment of the immoralities in the story of Job are based upon Christianity's own assertions of concepts like compassion and justice. Christians claim God hates the wicked and yet here he is not only having a casual conversation with the source of wickedness, but giving Satan explicit permission to slaughter the children of a man whom the story states in the very first verse was upright and blameless. The god in this story fails by Christianity's own claims and standards.
By the way, the inventors of Judeo-Christianity and its modern adherents are the ones who anthropomorphized God, not me.
By no means! God can write straight with crooked lines, but that doesn't mean that crooked lines are good in themselves.
My local parish priest taught me this very quote last year. It's truly thought provoking and true. Xx
@Fr. Barron: We have both a Heavenly Father and Heavenly Mother. We are literally their spiritual offspring; We see God as holy, wise and benevolent and (unlike the biblical Jehovah), God allows their children the choice to "walk away" without any fear of condemnation. We commune privately with God in the Sanctuaries in our homes, not in a church building. True worship is the imitation of God's goodness toward humanity, as demonstrated by Yeshua. I could go on, myself! Thanks! God's love to you!
That was a great video, I myself have to admit I wonder why God allows bad things to happen to people more specifically believers. But as you illustrate our foresight is very short and we can't predict how the perceived luck of the situation will have future impact.
@adstanra You're raising our old problem of ultimate vs. contingent causality. It's quite right to say that God is not one fussy cause among many, intervening to direct the process of evolution (or any natural process for that matter). God is the reason why there is something rather than nothing, and hence his causal influence "stretches from end to end mightily and orders all things sweetly." But precisely because he is not "a" cause among many, he does not compete with natural causes.
Somehow I get the feeling that 72mespo, while arguing about God not intervening, is the type of person who would turn around and proclaim disgust at God ordering the genocide of the wicked nations in the promised land (I get that a lot on UA-cam). I think the main problem is that the questioners don't read the Bible to see that God very well does stop extreme wickedness, but he very rarely stops the 'minor' things of nature. But, great video Fr. Barron.
I am a modern day True Gnostic, which share some, but not all of the traditional Gnostic beliefs. Thank you for your reply.
@onethrown Don't be silly. To love is to will the good of the other. God loves himself, because he is the supreme good, and all other things in the measure that they participate in him. When you truly love someone else, you do indeed share in the divine life.
Christians: "God will ultimately bring goodness and justice out of all that happens, even if it doesn't look like it now."
We'll see.
@rnoodle3 What part of Gnosticism do you like?
I think this is a great video. And I felt like I should add a comment because before I wrote this there were 666 comments. God Bless.
I make peace and I create evil-I the Lord do all these things (Isaiah 45. 7.)
This is a neat video
Regardless of how people view God or think of him. We Catholic Christians have to bear in mind that God is merciful, kind, loving and forgiving. Even if i hear a report of a earth quake somewhere around the world, I'm not saying that God is a angry deity but rather showing his divine wrath. And why does God allow evil? Well because of free will. We humans have free will. We can either praise and worship God and be in his dwelling place of safety. Or we can live our own lives without him and commit any type of sin. It's own choice but the real right choice is to praise and worship God because he created us.
That is happening to me... evil plans stalking me now turning my life more difficult to survive 😌. 🙏🏼💟🌎💟🙏🏼🙋🏻♀️
@C45SAA Friend, what if you kept quoting from your third-grade science book as evidence that physics is simplistic? I'd tell you to read Einstein and Stephen Hawking. Well, you keep quoting from your bad childhood instruction in Catholicism as evidence that the Catholic Church is wicked. It's time to read more serious people! It's time to grow up in your faith!
We must remember that God is Love, but also God is a just judge who will separate the righteous from the wicked. Any time in the Old Testament God causes death, it is in response to wickedness, oppression, and injustice. God's love is a burning zeal to set things right. Christians typically understand these passages you mentioned tropologically or allegorically to point to the need to avoid sin. So the death of the wicked isn't necessarily wicknedness, but the justice of God manifested.
@onethrown What that passage means is that God is the sovereign Lord of his creation, presiding over both weal and woe. Evil, since it is a species of non-being cannot be "created." God produces the good and permits evil so as to bring about a greater good.
I'm no theologian, but permitting ≠ being the causal ground of evil, especially if we define evil as a lacking, not as a being having existence or cause, i.e. evil is merely the lack of good, not an entity in itself. This lacking is what our fallen state alludes to. This "fallen-ness" is the result of our free choices not to conform our lives to God's commandments. So, to sum it up, *we* made ourselves sick, and God wants to help us heal. Heartening.
In 1975-76 there was an earthquake in an Italian village.
The priest was on vacation out of town. The local church collapsed on Sunday morning
When the church was full for mass. Many many died. The priest rushed home and was sifting thru the rubble. A reporter asked him how he could beleive in a God who would allow this? The priest said “God had his own way of working, his own way of testing the faithful.”
@wimsweden God's plan is not in competition with the world's rhythms, since he established them!
Spiritually, I understand why evil happens my biggest struggle is if we live in a world where there is disease, disasters, and other suffering not caused by free will then I don’t see how we as human beings should have to risk being eternally punished.
Thank you for introducing me to John Polkinghorn.
The problem here, friend, is that "matter" and "energy" are infinitely variable, which means that the state in which they find themselves, at any given moment, needs to be explained. But the properly unconditioned source of contingency must be that which contains within itself the very reason for its own existence. It must, therfore, be purely actual. And this is why neither "matter" nor "energy" can be identified as the Creator.
I'll see too much cause i was at starting wanting help to God with all My Heart and i was trying little to little someones and i'm surprised that too much has passed only don't want to be selfish and anticipate that people must to know and recognize how much God loves us, and give us the Earth like share his hapiness with us but not only at Earth also at Heaven, and this Earth is awesome from Beloved God too the Heaven, all is from Him so we must accept if He wants take back his Earth and send us at Heaven, but if we don't knows and love him how can to live with him. He loves us more than we can expect so i hope He prepares the different ways for everyone get be Save with God at his time. 😇😇😇 God bless all! God loves us! Ever
@adstanra Sure there is! Everything is proceeding according to God's mysterious designs. The point is that Job can't possibly understand the details of the plan and therefore he is invited to trust. And punishment in the Bible is always for a good purpose, for it is meant to bring Israel to repentance.
@adstanra, It's certainly a struggle, the Church has spoken against Hell not being eternal. I strive to live faithful to the Church even when it's difficult to do that. I will have to find out if my faith is true or not when I die. Life is tough sometimes, it's full of mysteries, sometimes we don't see the whole picture, I certainly don't, I'm only human, after all.
Wow. Great.
To offer up suffering has great meaning
This universe is really the best a benevolent God could do?
I thought for a while, looking at some posts of the Bishop, that he might have had some original and possibly compelling arguments, but this video was the end. His defence of God's permitting of undesirable human or natural phenomena - that there must (MUST!) be a greater good to follow that we humans can't see - is both patronising and desperate. It has all the hallmarks of a man who was born a Catholic and has ever since spent his considerable intellect in reading backwards from that learned belief.
I'm sorry friend, but that's so simplistic. Let me ask you one question: how did you empirically verify the proposition that only empirically verifiable things are true? Your very principle is something very real, but it doesn't correspond to an empirically verifiable state of affairs.
I can see why the Coen Brothers' movies appeal to you so much, Father :)
Rather a stoic view--certainly hard to argue against. I guess the challenge is being able to muster the suffering.
Ditto to what factionxvt408x said.
Like anyone else, I struggle with the issue of suffering, most particularly when it affects me :), but one thing that really helps me is not trying to understand it, but coming to the realization of how much I DON'T understand it because it's beyond my ability to predict how events will ultimately play out. For some reason, this helps bring me a certain measure of peace....at least so far.
@goldenram27 I don't see why so many people get tripped up here. The principle is not "everthing has a cause;" the principle is "every contingent thing has a cause." A properly non-contingent, uncaused reality, whose very nature it is to be, is the conclusion of the demonstration. To ask "what caused God?" is to betray the fact that you haven't grasped the point of the argument. And the "universe" isn't eternal, since it's in time. Eternity is not endless time, but beyond time.
"Will see' is the only possible answer in any time in ups and downs of human history. The best way remaining in Christian faith is only 'Jesus' who had suffered so much, and not go beyond about all mighty and all known God. It is forever mystery, no scholar neither no philosopher, no one. It is mystery and we never stop curious about it. So, the life makes continually interesting.
@rnoodle3 Creation, Incarnation, the Church, the sacraments, apostolic authority, the saints, the Mass, the real presence of Christ in the eucharist, Mary.... Shall I go on?
@TheEvolvedMind Well creation and evolution are totally different realities. Creation is the relationship that obtains between Being Itself and contingent beings. It is a perpetual, ongoing affair. Evolution names the process by which life forms unfold and develop over time. God undergirds and guides that process, as he does everything else.
What you are referring to, raping and molesting, is not promoted within the Catholic Church. I agree whole hardily with your disgust to those involved and to those who through inaction facilitated there continuation. For me, that does not destroy my belief in God, or the historicity of the Catholic Church; a church with many of the worst sinners and saints; this may seem like a contradiction to outsiders but I see it as a witness. I just wish this stuff didn't happen, the fact however is that it did and blaming the Catholic Church is like saying all humans are totally evil when we know this is not so.
@billybagbom That last sentence is particularly well-stated.
@adstanra, The fact that we have numerous contributing factors that our will dwells upon and is persuaded by does not mean that the will is not free. The will obviously does not operate in vacuum, but that does not mean it is bound to any particular action or thought on account of those factors that influence it. The will always has motives presented to it, but it freely chooses between these different motives and decides to think/act upon them. Your objection does not come too bear at all.
@onethrown The whole point of what I'm saying is, "How do we distinguish between what one CAN do, and what one SHOULD do?" You have conflated "can" and "should," which I believe is the inevitable result of denying that a Transcendent Voice has spoken to mankind, whether in human nature, or prophetic revelations, or even Divine Incarnation, or all or the above. I believe this Voice has spoken. Those who deny this are left only with what they CAN do, with no way of ascertaining what they SHOULD do
You probably meant "what most about Catholicism do you like"? And for me its definitely the Eucharist i.e. the idea even that the Infinite God would want full and substantial union with me, filling me with All His Bounty as far as a finite creature can enjoy is simply overwhelming
@goldenram27, hence the question of what created God is a disregarding of the argument at hand. Nothing causes God, God exists by necessity, He is His own reason for being. A necessary being exists because it is necessary, not because anything caused it, it is its own reason for being.
@badpanda84 SOME PRIESTS have misbehaved sexually! To conclude on that basis that I must be deviant just because I am a priest is libelous.
The problem described is only a problem when the world is seen from a point of duality.
As Thomas Merton said:
"You have to experience duality for a long time until you see it’s not there."
Is there a source for the entire Chinese story?
@goldenram27, "faith seeking understanding.", "we believe so that we might understand", divine revelation motivates trying to understand it and trying to reconcile the the faith with what we know by intuition or by the physical/philosophical truths of the natural world around us.
You are a lucky one. I do not fully understand Catholic theology, nor do I think one can know it well without profound experiences of God and profound wisdom.
The Chinese parable was exposited in a scene in the movie "Charlie Wilson's War", a comedy/drama roughly based on the eponymous Congressman's efforts in the '80s to aid Afghanistan in their struggle against the Soviets. It's an enjoyable movie that's a few years old now, but correlates somewhat with the theme of this video. Given your penchant for film review it made me wonder if you'd seen it and what your thoughts might be?
@TheMythus It's a subtle distinction but an important one: God doesn't "do" evil that good may come of it (for that would make him Machiavellian); rather, he allows certain evils in order to bring about goods that couldn't exist any other way. Without the deaths of lots of animals, you and I wouldn't be alive. Without the cruelty of Hitler, there would not be the unique form of holiness that we see in Maximilian Kolbe and Edith Stein.
Time for your friendly neighbourhood atheist to drop by. Thank you, Fr Barron for your best UA-cam clip in a long time. I really liked the points you made regarding our inability to see, forsee or understand lines of consequences of an act or event. But regarding evolution, is this the difference between your "theistic evolution" and creationism? That God ALLOWS evolution to take place vs creationists view of a DIRECT, CREATING God? But then agian, how does the soul fit into the whole thing? :)
@AntoniusbBlock Why in the world would it be "incompatible" with the miraculous?! The God who established the order and rhythm of nature cannot, for his own purposes, on very rare occasions, interrupt that order?
@goldenram27 I didn't intend to return to this blog, but I can't resist (where is my free will?)! As Christians believe that Jesus is both fully human and fully divine, so historically the Church has upheld the divine and human natures of Scripture. The biblical writers and editors were not merely instruments in the hand of God; God designed and utilized the unique contribution of each human author/editor, warts and all. I don't pretend to understand all this scientifically. I will to believe.
@adstanra, depends who's reason, and what kind of right reasoning goes into determining what is right and just and proper and true. The question of what is proper reason is a deeper philosophical question. Luckily however many of us carry over the general Judeo-Christian western ideas of justice here, so dialog is made a bit easier, though modernism causes a bit of a gap between some terms and forms of thinking.
So cogent.
@adstanra, I never said my vice is overeating, I said a vice like over eating unless I over spoke. My vices include lust, wrath, greed, gluttony, the list goes on and on.
I have no idea what the laws of physics have to do with moral perfection. As a Physics major and possible philosophy major I have trouble contemplating how the two fields interact exactly.
Does my way way of thinking about God is wrong and sin against God or Jesus? I am very confused about this matter. Watching and experiencing all sorts of suffering going through, can't help but to conclude not to think too much about. Thank you for your teaching.
@goldenram27, I accepted the notion of sin from the basis that one ought to be punished for what one does wrongly, regardless if whether one's injustices are known to others or not. My conscience stung me, and it continued to sting me, that's why I believed in the notion of sin.
@adstanra, you say by definition a human would freely choose happiness over suffering, but that simply isn't the case for many wicked persons who corrupt their souls by pursuing and delighting in evil vices. Our souls become habituated to delighting in evil if we allow them, therein if they die they die with their wicked desires as their eternal desire, instead of God.
a daring video - for a lot of people it might come across as an abstract metaphysical rationalisation away from the horrible facts - i wouldn't like to say to Japanase mother who lost her son: We'll see - maybe it will be a blessing
on the other hand maybe the thought that there is divine providence and that even such a tragedy could make sense in the eyes of god - this thought might (only might) help some people with their pain - there is no solace from an absolute meaningless disaster