Absolutely brilliant observation of where the world is at right now. I’m 57, from Australia and grew up on land where we could ride mini MX bikes freely. I grew up loving the sensory magic of riding 2 stroke bikes, ripping them hard on dirt tracks and all the micro skills associated with it. Then we had to maintain them, learn mechanical skills which we grew to love and built our confidence within ourselves. Still love my riding, came back to it after a long break. Love my surfing too. When my business gets too much, my amazing family don’t begrudge me my time to ride or surf. Times have changed. Kids have new pass times to entertain them. But if we can get these kids to experience more than just indoor activity, or just something new, slightly risky and considering all other outdoor pursuits, motorcycling is one of the most back to basics, sense enhancing activities one can experience on dirt or road. So it’s dangerous, apparently. Own it. Take your life into your own hands and buy a motorcycle. Learn to ride it and think for everyone else around you when they do not. Maintain it, or respect those who can do it for you with the professionalism involved to keep you safe. Likewise, if motorcycles aren’t your thing, learn to ride a horse, surf, mountain bike, whatever, but be prepared to pay for tuition from those who have the skills to help you become a better version of yourself. You only live once. If you’ve read this far and regret it, my apologies. 🙏
True my friend,its the same with guitar playing ,its just one of a range of options that todays "yoof"can choose from.Its also worth bearing in mind the economic downturn has a big effect. Many younger people in their work choices dont want to do physically demanding jobs anymore but dream of being their own CEO of some computer based job. The world is a changed place since i grew up and i dont feel and am not especially"old"! I will keep riding my dirt/dual sport motorcycles as long as i can!
Back in 1980 I got mobile on an FS1E. I couldn't believe how great it was to be able to meet up with mates and be independent. Youngsters now have this online connection and perhaps don't see the need to physically meet up as much. Cost is a major factor, but ultimately, the government isn't bothered about the motorcycle community. You will soon see the bottom fall out of the classic bike market as folks older than me fall off the perch and the skills to fix these old bikes also dies out. A thoughtful if slightly depressing vid. People like yourself are helping, and it's always good to see some younger people still jump through all the hoops to get a motorcycle licence.
motorcycling was once a complete involvement with your machine, you did the maintenance , checked the tightness of everything, changed the oil, checked the tappets, you did almost everything, it was you best friend, it took you to places that were inaccessible to others, it was a oneness, now sadly a lot of that has gone , fuel injection, electronics , masses of wiring, expensive parts, needing a computer to fault find and set it up, all of this has taken away from the way it was and reduced that complete involvement .
@@batterybuilding i think the point he is making that a carb is fully mechanical, a fuel injection system isn't; one can be fully self-serviced, the other not so much.
Barrier to entry is just way to high for young people. Regardless of ones opinions on safety how they've structured the testing makes it virtually impossible for countless people to give motorcycling a go and at the end of the day most of us fell in love with motorcycles because we were lucky enough to have a go on one!
@@cowmath77 thing is ok UK roads, you'ld be dead within the month if we had the same system here - it is hard to pass but the barrier to entry is really intentional so younger riders can't really do it also less young people are learning to drive in the UK as they move to cities with good public transport and cost of running any vehicle rockets!
@@cowmath77 In PA all I see riding are middle aged white dudes - I think the cost of the bikes and all the points Nathan listed are barriers. Especially when for the cost of a reasonable used bike you can get a car, which while is not as fun is more practical.
@@cryptokev1759 the cost of a reasonable used bike is $2000 to $3000. You can also buy a brand new bike for $6,000 that will cost you $200 a month. A used car? That’s nonsense. Insurance on my Speed Triple and Ducati scrambler costs me $71 a month, and I was involved in a crash that totaled my bike. You’re not paying attention to the reality if you think this hobby costs too much.
I think the killer is insurance. My son's 17 after Christmas, looked at used Chinese scrambler style 125s. Cheap enough to buy but insurance quotes were between 4 and 5 GRAND. Ridiculous and sadly unaffordable
@@sleepyrider It’s totally outrageous, the insurance companies are taking piss in every sense. When I was 17, many decades ago, it was cheap to insure a GP100 which was my first bike. Basically the government is trying to discourage anything that might be considered risky and fun.
Try Bikesure - my lad paid £800 fully comp off them at age 17 riding a brand new Honda CB125F. And look at 3rd party too - in some ways fully comp is pointless with huge excess fees
It’s partly the UK insurance system - were I live in Australia the third party injury insurance is part of the cost of yearly registration costs to the government. Which ranges from approx £50/yr for a 125 to £400 for a bike over 500cc. It’s then your choice if you wasn’t to insure other people’s property or your bike, and if you do it’s cheap unless you ride exotica….
@@pauls8456 I'd really welcome an insurance system similar to Australia or New Zealand. Sure, registration/tax equivalent was more expensive during the couple years I lived in New Zealand, but insurance was reasonable and most bikes so it worked out much cheaper, theft wasn't really a concern, and there were a lot more bike shops and generally people riding. Insurance prices and having somewhere to securely keep a bike are probably the two biggest barriers to entry for potential younger motorcyclists in the UK.
On a more upbeat note, I'm encouraged by the number of young and older UA-camrs going on biking adventures, some for the first time, and the likes of Itchy Boots on her famous travels even reviving an older bike for her next trip-it's got me enthusiastic about touring again.
Tinkering was always part and parcel of owning a bike. Best thing about older bikes is you can easily maintain them yourself with a couple of hundred quids worth of tools. It's all part of the hobby
First off, I want to say I really, really like the style of presentation. Sitting down talking to camera it's so much better than the endless number of MotoVloggers who record a boring bit of riding and then sit at whom reading a prepared monologue over the top. Thanks Nathan it's such a refreshing change. As to the state of motorcycling in the UK, I think the root of the problem is that two wheels are no longer seen as transport. And that goes way back before anyone is old enough to get on a motorcycle. I'm willing to bet a penny to a pound that for the majority of riders today their first experience of two wheeled freedom was on a bicycle. Compare that to today, where cycling, just like motorcycling, is seen as a hobby, a leisure activity. How many kids cycle to school? Instead helicopter parents either put their kids on the bus or clog up the roads driving their precious offspring back and forth to school, to football, to after-school clubs. And from that comes the idea that two wheeled transport is dangerous, that the car is the solution. Is it a coincidence that in the Netherlands where cycling is commonplace motorcycle ownership per capita is almost double that of the UK? Motorcycling in the UK is a hobby, a leisure activity or a sport. And just like any leisure activity it's sold as such by the majority of manufacturers not just of motorcycles but also equipment, clothing etc. It's presented as such by the vast majority of the motorcycle media from MCN to UA-cam and lapped up by a great many riders. Even the motorcycle training industry sells it that way, with multi-day training courses sold for a high upfront fee. Yes I do see issues with the a tiered licencing regime, I think if it were possible to do the test on a bike in the category below ie A2 on an A1, A on an A2, as it was prior to the latest changes, so you could use your own bike, it would help to reduce the cost of entry with probably little to no impact on safety. Is it all a revenue raiser for the government, not if you look at the costs of the tests themselves - £23 for Theory, £15.50 for Mod1 and £75 for Mod2 I doubt they make any money at all. Where cost becomes a barrier for young people is the training. A CBT might be relatively affordable at between £100 to £150 including bike, jacket and helmet hire, but the way training for test is sold, the DAS course creates a major financial stumbling block which rider training sold as an intensive course spread over 4-5 days. Compare that to car driver training usually in 1 hour lessons spread often over the course of a number of months. Looking at those costs, a four or five day motorcycle course is in the region of £900-£1100 or a little over £30/hour. This is similar to driver training costs which are in the region of £25-35/hour. The big difference that makes one affordable and the other not, especially for a young person, is that one is paid in a lump sum, the other over several months. And while we're looking at costs, let's not forget back in the 50's and 60's the heyday of British motorcycling the school leaving age was 15, with a couple of years of saving and easily available HP you had the deposit to put down on a motorcycle by time you were old enough to ride one. The mid-70's to 80's with tougher licencing requirements and a rise in school leaving age to 16 saw the rise of the 50cc, a Fizzie might have been the dream, but those first few pay packets could still buy you something that burnt two-stroke faster than it went up the road. Now in 2024 with the school leaving age at 18 and many young people going onto some form of higher education, any form of their own powered mobility is beyond financial reach. So it makes more sense to do the driving test and borrow mum's car. My hope is the rise of e-mobility, if only the government could be persuaded to actually do something about it and if only the motorcycle industry would take it under their wing. What we need is for the legalisation of low powered e-scooters and e-motos rideable from 14 years of age just as e-bikes are currently. Training could be done in schools like the Cycling Proficiency test of old, and kids could learn the joys of two wheeled motoring at a younger age on simmering far more affordable. So that's motorcycle training schools offering one to two hours lessons, which could be slotted in after school or at the weekend like driving lessons, a motorcycle industry selling affordable e-motos to pull people to showrooms and small capacity bikes for when they're old enough to ride and most importantly more parents letting their offspring out on bicycles and e-mobility so they appreciate the freedom of their own transport. With all of that I reckon we might just see enough young people considering motorcycling in the UK to prevent the whole thing collapsing when we're too old to swing a leg across a machine.
Maybe I'm just lucky, but I have two motorcycle training centres within a few mile radius of me (one in my town). The DAS course I'm currently learning on at Triskelion motorcycle training (north east Derbyshire) is £950 for as much training as is required including test fees (although re-tests have to be paid for, there is a £1150 tier course that includes re-tests), and it's spread out as long as necessary. I can only really go on weekends so my rate of training has gone down (my last session was cancelled due to rain), they basically just book me in for the next time I can go. The payments are also spread out as long as you need, but they want a minimum payment before starting training, and all of it before the final Mod 2 test. The A1 and A2 tiers are also cheaper, £800 and £900 respectively. If you are more experienced and only need 21hours of training, there are also cheaper courses £700-850. You can also pay £100 more to take your tests on a Harley Davidson Sportster if you really wanted to.
The sound of reason and wisdom Nathan - it’s been coming for years this reckoning, bikes becoming so expensive now some are bordering on and surpassing ridiculous. I very nearly dipped into my savings and bought one of these bikes from 15 - 20k market. Thankfully sanity prevailed and I realised I just don’t need one for my next new bike which I’ve decided is in the under 6k market now. Selling my 3 other bikes and simplifying my life with only one bike now.
@@ianfutcher1518 I’ve tried some of the 4 - 500cc bikes and they’re huge fun at sensible speeds on the country roads and the congested main ones too. Thought they were going to be gutless compared to some of my super bikes but in reality they’re not. They’re much lighter, more manageable and made me realise 40 - 50hp is fine for every day riding and even further afield. Can’t wait to get my new 450MT next spring.
@@RichardS-qh8mi I like the sound of the 450MT but have concerns with the resale value of these and others such as Royal Enfield which have seemed to have plummeted. Also parts and servicing for the Chinese bikes is not exactly welcomed by many motorcycle workshops. Shame because they look like great bikes.
@@ianfutcher1518 I understand your concerns, but I’m a long term owner of all the different bikes I’ve owned over the decades. This 450MT will likely be my last main bike and I may just keep one of my classics too. Just want a relatively lightweight bike I can just jump on and go anywhere whilst having fun. In a few years I suspect CF Moto will have a much bigger global network of distribution, dealers and spares. If you keep a new bike for 4 years or more you’ve had your value.
My daughter has just done her cbt and bought a 125cc but the insurance is so high that she can’t keep it near her student digs so has to leave it at home. This means she’ll be lucky to ride it once a month. I’m sure it’s the insurance that stops the younger generation pursue their dream.
Get an ebike! No license, no insurance, no testing and you get to ride for free, for now. It's time to wake up to a world that's changing at warp speed. A diminishing MC culture is the least of our worries, all our former freedoms will be in the rearview mirror..
Well said Nathan. Motorcycles use to be a first step to independence & transport for youngsters. They were our transport for commuting and everything else. It was way cheaper to get into motorcycling than it was to start driving a car. Now that has completely reversed. The roads are much busier & it’s cheaper and easier for youngsters to get a car licence and pick up a cheap car, than it is to get into motorcycling. I don’t think the British weather helps. Youngsters now would rather sit in a warm dry car with the heater on and their phones linked up. Turn up at any bike night and you’ll find the vast majority of the guys there are over 50. I also agree with you on the point of maintenance costs and repairs it’s become very expensive to have a set of carbs serviced and not all bike workshops have trained staff willing to do the work. The manufacturers don’t help with new bikes either. I do my own maintenance but even accessing a set of spark plugs these days, can mean an hour of stripping bits to get at the spark plugs, & another hour to put it back together. If a main dealer charges £100 an hour that’s a couple of hundred quid for what should be a straight forward simple job, and probably stops youngsters learning. I see motorcycling becoming just an older persons hobby, rather than a sustainable form of transport for the masses, which our government should be encouraging as they are better for the roads and environment.
Exactly. And I would like to add that the lack of investment in low cc bikes. In the 90´´s there a ton of diferente bikes and models 50cc, 125cc, 250cc and so on. Nowdays Honda only have one trail bike model the crf300 per example. There isn´t any investment in the market of low powered bikes and all they do is investing in high power bikes and ADV style. It´s really sad the market is like this nowadays. Cheers
In Germany car license is more expensive than motorbike license. Car license is anywhere around 3000-4000€. A motorcycle license is a step cheaper. Anywhere around 2500-3500€. It's still very expensive. Insurance for bikes is a lot cheaper than for cars also. Bikes are my passion, cars I use for transit and transport.
Brilliant video Nathan, and great comments below from all the guys that obviously understand our pastime and can see why it is coming to an end as we traditionally know it. I understand why mainstream manufacturers have, with the help of our biking press, dragged us ever upwards in terms of cost & complexity - the manufacturers make more money and our non-critical press love blowing smoke up the hoop of manufacturers and zooming about on their latest creations. Generally "mopeds", scooters & small bikes are mostly ignored and that is to the detriment of biking, and any test or review on these smaller machines tends to be done with joking sneer, and unlikely to coax newbies onto 2 wheels. Without much media exposure Enfield, CF Moto, Voge etc seem to be gaining a foothold and that might help turn things around ..... if its not too late !?
A quick look on Statista shows the worldwide motorcycle market looks in good health. Hence, the manufacturers are doing fine. The problem may be just the UK, which won't really worry the manufactures too much I guess.I'd like to know more about what is happening in the UK though.
Interesting. I’d agree. When we got into motorcycling (I’m 60), we did it because it was straightforward and it was a cheap entry into transport. I do my own maintenance, because I’m another rare breed, an engineer who did a proper apprenticeship and spent a career in engineering. I have two bikes, both bought new and neither have ever been to a dealer because I can do the maintenance better than they do. Just as proof my Enfield 350 classic went back to the original dealer for its 300 mile service and they set the valves miles out, overfilled the oil and tightened the chain so much you could have fired arrows from it. At that point I decided it would never go back to a dealer. Trouble is this doesn’t support our dealer/servicing network. Now the Enfield dealer in Exeter is excellent (it wasn’t them) and I use them for parts and would buy a bike from them. Getting to them is a 100 mile round trip for me. There are fundamental issues here to do with the cost of running a business, the cost of renting premises, the lack of engineering apprenticeships and training in the industry, the cost of new bikes (I could easily buy a bike that cost more than my new, electric car, and that’s madness). The industry, as with many, has been all about making a big profit rather than making a sustainable business. Selling over blown, over weight, over specified leisure toys and ignoring affordable transport and cheap to run bikes. Only Royal Enfield and the Chinese have been selling into that market and even they are heading down the lifestyle route now. May be it was forever thus, but yes, motorcycling is on its arse. Maybe it needs to fail in its current form before it bounces back in some new way. P.s, I’ve just come back from a two week, 1600 mile (ish) tour around France on my 350 Enfield and it was blooming brilliant. Maybe it’s us customers that have lost our way and become desperate for more power to inflate our egos (and that we barely use). Just my thoughts😊
Your last paragraph is on the money - but ppl don't use their own mind and surcome to the advertising.... Pro rides in some far off location pulling wheelies....it's the way modern consumerism has been made the norm.
Agree, Sixty also but only got into road riding 4 years ago ( whole other story) grew up on farm bikes and dirt bikes though. Every time I see a fellow ADV rider take his helmet off I see a not so full head of grey hair. Interesting thing is most of us are interested in the mechanical side of it, as you say doing our own servicing , tinkering with the bike etc, but we all grew up on bikes that could be tinkered with ,ie pulling carbs apart putting in bigger jets , different needles, adjusting valves etc ( growing up on a farm you just learnt those things). I feel for the young ones now, the bikes are so complicated and high tech that riders miss out on half the experience of owning a bike ( maintaining it) they have to take it to a dealer for anything other than oil change or chain tension. I think maybe that's why less people are getting into riding, and why basic low cost bikes are still selling well.
Wise words as always Nathan. My independent garage is still busy, the local big chain has loads of high priced second hand stuff and seems to have a decent turnover. Harley dealer is like a leather clad OAP home though and prices are boggling. Other factors include the theft risk in cities, high insurance premiums and even the cost to park them . Enjoy them while we can! All the best from a blustery but glorious Brum
Hi Nathan, thoughtful perspective....I lived and worked in Asia (Hong Kong, China, Japan and others) for most of my working life. Returned to Europe to retire last year. Motorbiking in Asia is massive.....cheapest form of engined transport for many people with limited means. Necessity over there, for pleasure here in Europe/USA etc. How times have changed......
The cost of housing is also a big factor, so many people don’t have anywhere secure to keep a bike, I’m 50 with a decent career and can only dream of having a place with a garage, it puts me right off buying anything half decent
Ultimately I think it comes down to cost for a lot of young people. If you don’t have new blood in any hobby/sport/internet with time it will die. The focus needs to be on bringing onboard new young riders. Accessibility and affordability is everything… Great vlog, some very insightful topics discussed
I think young people have more important things to prioritise, a car is more practical and insurance and maintaince on two vehicles is expensive af, also getting on the housing ladder requires a fucking massive deposit, cost of living bites too and I think motorcycles are just not a option for young people like they once were, you can make cheaper bikes but its not gonna solve the main problem of everything else, especially insurance which manufacturers have no control over.
My wife has long said she'd like to give riding a go. She's not entirely certain and the £1000 entry cost for licences, before buying equipment and a machine, mean we've never taken her potential interest any further. There needs to be a more feasible entry I think.
It's only money, I lost my wife to cancer at 47, I'd give anything to have her ride with me and go on camping trips etc. Totally understand where you're coming from, but nothing is guaranteed and memories are gold. I got into riding to cope with her death, just wish I had memories of riding with her when she was alive. If you can find the money it'd be well worth it.
Have to agree to that! It seems like motorcycle manufactures are catering only to the few wealthy buyers that are left with more and more expensive bikes and have totally forgotten about the future buyer coming behind them who are forced out by price so can’t even get started in motorcycling
I think Honda is trying for the entry level market, they have a whole category of 125cc motorbikes on their website, while the dealers that are actually close to me like Triumph, Harley Davidson, Royal Enfield, and Suzuki don't have any 125 motorbikes (Suzuki do have 125 scooters though). Honda even have a new rider program where they include everything to start riding: CB125F motorbike; motorcycle training (full licence); service plan; and rider gear all into one package that can be paid in monthly. For a CB125F the package is £5250 in total, or 36 monthly payments of £95 which is pretty reasonable. What they need to do is take off £1000 if they just included a CBT and not full licence training, and get some sort of discounted monthly insurance (Honda could bargain prices down quite easily I would imagine) maybe like £70 a month at most (mine is £1300 for my first year). Maybe include a discount on decent bike locks. That would be around £150 a month all in (+ approx £10-20 fuel depending on use). That's about 14 hours on minimum wage or two full time days a month to pay for everything for the bike. Then Honda should up their advertising budget and advertise it to everyone. They already have "You meet the nicest people on a Honda", slap it on a TV advertising campaign (probably best at end of next winter/early spring). Emphasise the fact it only takes a weekend to do your CBT and get everything sorted, call it the "Just Ride" programme or something. Make different packages for different age groups: the Grom for young people, CB125F and scooters for others, job done.
@@Bordpie Honda have always made small bikes. If you look beyond the main brands there are lots of small bikes out there. Better than Honda's toys like the Groms or the Monkey. Go look at South East Asia. The whole of society moves on two wheels on bikes of about 150cc in capacity.
It took a death in my family for me to finally get into motorcycling at 35yrs old. I had a dream about getting into motorcycling as a hobby for years but could never really justify the expense. A part of the inheritance of my grandmother's passing went towards that dream, getting a full license for 1k, riding gear for 1,5k and a second hand duke390 for 4k. I could have started on a 125 because local law allows it if you have a car license but I figured I would tire of it too soon (as I saw happen with a friend of mine). I might have been able to get the bike on finance or something but I didn't want to get tied to such a plan when I wasn't even sure at the start if motorcycling would turn out to be a fun hobby and not a money-sink for something I couldn't do much of. I've been riding for two years now, it's great fun so I'm keeping at it. Since I'm enjoying it so much I may upgrade to another second-hand bike in a year or two. I'm not using it to commute, I go to work by train or e-bike. The cost to get started was the biggest hindrance (especially because I spent a bit more on safety gear to assure my wife and kids). I hope the industry stays healthy enough, we don't seem to have it as bad with closing of businesses but I don't think we even have as many dealers or workshops as you seem to have in the UK so I guess they are getting caught up with the reality of this motorcycling "decline". Some manufacturers might like to think that their bikes would sell like other electronics where you get a new one every other year but it seems like bikers bond more closely to their machines and stick with them instead. It's not like new bikes are bad (in most cases). The prices (and features) have gone up but the demand isn't. Something seems very wrong in that sense.
You could do worse that get around on something like the RE Classic 350, it doesn't get any cheaper and simpler than that. The other worry is the Government persecution of motorists, which seems to be forever ramping up. Stuart Fillingham just released a video about Hackney council's plans to charge mopeds £6 / hour for parking. Whatever next?
Interesting comments. I am another who is in their 60`s 64 to be exact. I passed my test in 1978 aged 17 I have been saying the same for several years now. It was fun in 70`s and 80`s but I live in the crowded South East and the fun is going out of riding. Bikes and associated gear are now very expensive and young people either have other interests and are struggling to get on the housing ladder. Most places I go I am surrounded by older riders like myself. We are slowly dying out ! PS I ride often in Europe which is fun because the roads are not crowded.
You are very accurate in your assessment. In CDA, for example, Honda has made drastic and destructive policy moves over the years, including 2 tiered dealerships, poor product line choices, and elimination of at one time profitable product lines (push and riding mowers). Not exclusive to Honda is the never ending arms race to produce faster, larger, more technically sophisticated motorcycles which are thus more expensive to buy and repair. This has been going on since the late 1980's, resulting in older, lightly used, mid-sized and larger motorcycles that have succumbed to garage rot, and because of their complication are too difficult and/or expensive for owners and mechanics to ressurect. This is complicated by the non-availability of often even common parts. Here, if you try and find an older, smaller, and affordable bike to get your feet wet in motorcycling, they have literally not been produced for 30 of the past 40 years, and even then they have done zero promotion to get new people on practical, fun, and AFFORDABLE motorcycles. I believe many manufactures bypassed 1 or 2 generations of customers chasing profit over product.
I'm nearly 40yrs in the trade and you are spot on. It's going the same way with cars. Lack of technicians means we can't cope with the demand. The future is grim unless something drastic is done.
I’m 63 and I think your’re probably right, as I look around some of the local gatherings here in Hampshire they’re usually pot bellied (although I’m not lol) bald headed blokes from my generation - a few younger guys show up now and again. I spent around 19k on what will probably be my last bike a year ago, that said when the suns out you’ll see plenty of bikes out’n about where I live. It would be very sad if it quietly vanished, but there’s no denying these are extremely tough times for younger people and it’s not getting any easier.
here in the Netherlands the industry is changing fast as well. Years ago I fount a great dealer, 2 man company, very good service, great prices. Yesterday he announced that his mechanic will leave the company and he will go on his own, just buing and selling bikes, no more workshop! Same with a company I used to work for, was a big dealership years ago. Now the owner only sells bikes and has a webshop, no workshop!
Great video Nathan on a subject that I've feeling in my bones for quite some time, that the bike world is staring into the abyss. You're right that with the numbers of bikes that are currently being sold - not just in the UK, but in the 'western' world - the industry isn't sustainable. Certainly in Japan the R&D investment seems to be drying up, with most new models no more than rehashed old ones. As someone who's been enjoying life on two wheels since the 60's it does seem like the party is winding down. Quite why is the question though. There's a whole load of reasons that could be put forward, some of which you mentioned in the video, but in my observation motorcycles have been going down a slope over the last few decades from semi functional items with their place in the transport panoply to purely leisure objects. A leisure object that comes with a combination of societal and governmental 'disapproval' is going to have a hard time. Some will ignore that but many won't and seek their pleasure elsewhere. What, if anything, can we do about it would be too long for this comment but at an individual level I wonder if it's much more than a wringing of hands. Not terribly positive I'm afraid but that's where we are.
@@CosmicSeeker69”Ride for mental health” - that is so true! If in doubt, think what it was like during covid. I used any excuse (shopping?) to get out on my bike!
I passed mine 38 years ago and it cost me more then than it did to learn to drive the car. My hourly lessons were £7 in the car ( yes really!), and I did 10 lessons. But my bike costs were fixed at £120 for the course ( cheapest I could get). And now it’s even more nuts. The government started making it difficult when they started changed the licensing regime in the early eighties.
@@pungarehu Did mine in 1988, no training, turned up on a old CB550 with a Velorex sidecar that I'd been riding for a couple of years. Tester followed me round the block on his bike for a while, then back to the test centre for a handful of questions on the Highway Code (maybe not the most thorough testing 😊). The general impression was that "if you can ride that bloody outfit without getting killed you've probably earned your licence"). I do feel for the youngsters today, they seem to get all the grief and little benefit from our current society.
Multiple reasons in my view - 20mph speed limits and cameras everywhere certainly take the fun out of riding on the road. Pootling around at 20 or 30 mph makes riding a bike pointless. Coupled to that, lots of financial uncertainty for many people and less disposable cash for what is essentially a luxury item for most riders means the bike has to go. Keep doing what you're doing Nathan - I'm sure your activities inspire many people who would otherwise not get involved 👍
Many folks in the comments are listing their ages, and most are 60 + (61 years here), which seems to support your assertion that we are aging out of the hobby. Conversely, I notice the proliferation of electric bicycles, which seem to be selling in large quantities even as the regular bicycle market is cratering post COVID. Most can easily do 20 mph (32 kph) and have decent range, can use bike lanes and don't need registration or insurance. They are light enough to bring up the lift in an apartment building. Just easier to own for a lot more benefit. I recently purchased one myself and it can do 31 mph (about 50 kph). It puts off no heat in city traffic and has a mountain bike frame with an air suspension front fork. It's fun, quiet and much cheaper than a motorcycle. I think that is where the future lies. That said, I have two bikes in my garage, a Kove 450 and a Triumph 1200 XE. I'll likely sell the Triumph because it's too heavy to push about the garage as I get older and I don't want to be stuck with it when the market truly craps out. I've grown old motorcycling, and it will always be part of my identity, but I understand why younger folks without a lot of money are going to e-bikes instead.
It sounds that whoever wants to experience the 'traditional' motorcycling should not hesitate too much longer. I hope to join the club next year myself.
My son wants to ride but we're surrounded by dual carriageways so a 50cc is just dangerous. 125cc borderline as he's a big boy. The 125cc rule should be bumped up slightly to 150/200 with 18-20 HP to allow for a bike that can hold 70-75 up dual carriageway hills.
for sure there should be an A3 or something that's easier than the A2 or DAS but limits you on power output, A2 bikes are still pretty powerful really, but if they had an A3 you could limit to say 25hp and I think riders would still have the skills to stay safe and later move up to FULL
I just came back from a bit longer summer stay in Poland and my observation is that there is so many more young bikers in Poland that it's actually unbelievable. Same in Germany. Plenty of young people riding mopeds there. Not in balaclavas though. I got an impression that it's so legally difficult and expensive to be a young biker in the UK, so the only youngsters who are into that nowadays are chavs on stolen machines...
I've come to motorcycling quite late in life but I am glad I have. It's a real privilege to be able to ride. You make some very good points. On top of those are the cost of insurance and many people not having somewhere to park the bike. So they are at risk of theft, which is at very high levels. Unfortunately it's going to cause a spiral where the is very little money for a mechanic to professionally work on an older bike. As fewer bikes stay on the road there will be even less work for the mechanics. I'm no particularly mechanically minded but I'm going to try to do as much work on my bike as possible so I am less reliant on someone else.
I’m 42 and recently got back on bikes after a 20 year gap, alright I’m older, but the size, speed, and volume of cars is insane, I feel really vulnerable riding on a Saturday/ Sunday if it’s a nice day, so ironically nip out during the week or on evenings as is quieter. I imagine cost of living will prevent a lot of young people coming through, when I started in 2000 was no big deal to afford a car and a starter bike, can’t imagine kids these days can do that
Well spoken, not 100% sure if you are right in all aspects, but it’s worth to ponder it a bit. And yes, main thing is that we keep on riding on two wheels, regardless of all the temptation of ever better, more desireable products… I do probably have 15 years left ( already bought a 400x to have something easier to handle than my 955 Tiger, and yes, will ride as long as it goes…cheers!
Cheers Nathan, My 2 cents (or 2 pence) from the USA. I’m 59 and have been riding for over 40 years. I am also a career marketing professional and this hobby has all the marks of a ‘death-spiral’ - limited dealer network, limited selection, outrageous prices and dealer fees, etc. First, in the USA we do not have your compounded issues of ridiculous licensing schemes and theft is not that big of an issue. Insurance is fair and not outrageous-again most likely due to the low theft rate .vs UK. My age group is the ‘buying demographic’ here in the USA-mature riders (the younger generations behind us simply do not have the passion for the hobby nor the money$. Dealerships here in New England do not even offer test ride bikes-they expect you to sit on it in the showroom (if they have the bike you are looking for in stock…) and pay $10K+ for a 500cc+ bike. On manufacturer pricing - FFS did they not learn from the pandemic and inflationary pressures for the at least the past decade? Grocery prices and utility bills here have doubled per household in the past two years (food & heat or bikes?) For over a decade what we have needed here to stem the culling of the hobby is good, reliable, approachable sub $5K sub 500cc bikes. I’ve cleared my stable of a BMW R1200R, BMW 650 Classic and KLR 650 and now holding onto a 2019 CB300R that is light, nimble and super reliable ( a sub $5K sub 500cc bike ). I find myself watching these videos and looking at all the bikes overseas that they refuse to bring to the ‘backwater’ USA market. I am struggling to find a stablemate near it’s class here - maybe I’ll be surprised next year (I’ve been saying that for the past decade).
Amongst the other downsides in the UK is the awful weather.The last two summers have failed to appear and like most people I'm reaching for the car keys!I enjoyed your observations.
@@JohnWhite-hc8li unfortunately, all too real. Maybe start by looking up ENMOD on Wiki, but before you do pour a strong cup of hot scepticism....Wiki is as bent as can be. Also have a dig into HAARP but as my name suggests, DONT use Google as it's been sanitised via AI and there's also a lot, a LOT of government sites posing as subject experts. Hopefully if you do a good job you'll end up with DEW we.apons, and if you do an exceptional job you might tie that in with 5G. Anyway, glad your intuition is working well.
I assume CBT is where you obtain your training for a motorcycle license, or Learners & Professional plates. They used to be facilitated by the government with local police departments, now are run private companies, however they don’t just do that, they run a fairly extensive collection training and workshops, you can learn adventure & off road riding, touring, bike maintenance it fairly good. The other point is only until recently have the small 250-450 cc bike return, most manufacturers have priced new riders out of the market. We had had a lot of dealership close or combined with others to big superstores with cafes and purpose built community areas. Harley is learning the hard way that the new corporate model and boutique pricing doesn’t work.
Dark, but honest, and ‘seen from the coal face’. I’m now 78, got two old bikes, and no one in my family is interested in M/C in the slightest. I do all my own mechanical work (couldn’t justify garage work for my slimmed down hobby). Maybe we’ve got too much money (as a nation) for ‘cheap travel’ to bring people into the powered two-wheeled hobby… no answers, just wondering. Les
GP450 is an interesting bike to have as a background for this conversation. CCM would be in a ideal place right now with the popularity of adventure bikes to come out with something decent but instead they choose to sell the weird expensive bikes that they do to people that only do 200 miles a year on them. I wonder how much longer they can carry on rehashing the same bike for
I agree with you mate, I'm trying to highlight some budget/older versions of different types of bikes atm as after people get on and do it they get the bug for sure. Hopefully things pick up all round. They could start by not make people take the same test 3 times....
On a positive note, my Honda innova 125 cost 120 quid for a full service and I’m loving nipping around quiet roads on it, doubt that will change anytime soon!! 🙏
Sad realities - interestingly the number of new Motorcycle licences (passed on-road) have increased year-on-year by 10,000 over the last 10 years, to 40,306 in 2023-24 (ONS data), and drop out from theory test to passing on-road is much the same rate, current year 46% (2014 was 42%). It seems demand is still strong despite the challenges!
I'm 75 (very fit and very active) and my very first vehicle was a motorcycle. I've crossed the country twice, couriered for 6 years and ridden in all weather conditions. I've owned several over the years but family came along and I didn't ride for awhile. I have been bicycling though, while working it was 20 miles a day, several long trips on them, etc. After I retired I got that itch again and started looking for something not too crazy, 50/60 hp - 500 to 650cc range. I was shocked at the sticker price. So I stood back and gave it a rethink. I'm now on a dual battery electric moped, can do a bit over 30 on the flats, 35+ downhill, and cover 60 miles with fairly hard riding before recharging. I've realized 2 things - my recollection of what my motorcycling skills were would not match my aging abilities, and this thing is a blast and scratching my itch very nicely. When I look at the motorcycle industry's efforts in the e-motorcycle future I can't help but wonder why they're looking at long distance so much and not more local/commuter runs. Most ebikes are limited so can only stay up with traffic when it's 30 or under. Seems to me e-Motorcycles with a closer to 50mph speed would satisfy a lot of what people want - commute as well as fun weekend rides. I'd like to see a bigger push in that direction and batteries will only get better so range anxiety will get less.
@@RR-rk5gj only if they can find a way to change physics.... batteries are a chemical reaction ruled by the periodic table so I don't buy this 'batteries will get better' in any significant percentage....
Food for thought! Could be that as the car industry turns over to all electric that cars are no longer an affordable option for young people and they have to turn to motorcycles for transport? I think, talking to younger people about motorcycling, that the perception that motorbikes are 'dangerous' is also putting them off. And who can blame them when they see so many stories about their 'elders and betters' getting wiped out on their expensive litre bikes. I do think it's incumbent on us older riders to show people that it is safe, sociable and responsible, but still a fun way to travel and see the world. And we can only do that through mindset, training and actions. And perhaps if there were less older riders riding like numpties and paying for additional training then the costs of insurance and training might come down for younger riders? Spend less on the latest bling kit and more on building skills...? Just some additional thoughts
Electric cars are only expensive because politicians make them so, the Chinese brand BYD make a family hatchback for $12k but politicians apply 100% or more tariffs in order to prop up failing domestic industries. They will remove those tariffs before seeing society progress beyond being centred on cars.
You touched on what I think is the probable savior for motorcycles - e-bikes. I remember when Honda introduced the bike with the hidden grease and engine and "You meet the nicest people on a Honda". The motorcycle was no longer big, heavy, expensive, and covered in grease and oil. It was... *Civil* . And not needing a mechanics diploma to own. New people joined the bike world, and eventually they moved up to bigger machines. As batteries improve in energy density and come down in price, e-bikes - which don't need mastery of gear shifting and down-shift clutch coordination, and without all the messy maintenance tasks - will turn riders' attentions to the fun of Riding, instead of dreary Wrenching - and we'll be off again to Meeting the Nicest People.
Now retired, a motorcyclist since I was 16 , worked 10 years in the motorcycle industry sadly I have to agree with your eloquent, fluent summary of motorcycling in it's death throes in this country. I Found you by chance, subscribing now to catch more well presented output.
Very sobering analysis. Stuff like Royal Enfield pulling the franchise from MotoGB leaving them high and dry with millions tied up in stock doesn't exactly inspire confidence even in Royal Enfield, a brand that I felt was one you could trust. I live in North Devon too and I was only thinking the other day about the ND dealerships and MOT stations disappearing . It is worrying and electric bikes will not help because they do not require mechanical servicing, not that I would ever ride one, the sound of a motorbike engine is its soul. After 10 years of KTM's it is pushing me back to Japanese brands like Yamaha because at lease a T7 doesn't need a valve service for 26,000 miles and everything else I can do myself.
I am seeing a slow reduction of resources, my Son and I both have full licences he is quite rare there are not many under 30s with a full licence now, also have my wife and younger son who ride on CBT. We are slowly doing more and more work on our bikes ourselves and getting the equipment and skills to do this, it works for us as is 'part of the hobby', although in my son's case he only has a motorcycle licence and does not drive a car so it is essential to keep at least one consistently running. Both of us are receptive to having an electric option but there isn't a compelling, cheap enough example yet. The sweet spot looks like bikes that hark from the 1990's to early 2000s that are not too special. Mostly mechanical and some still have cheap parts available. I have an Aprillia Pegaso Trail from 2007 that I have kept going (fixed radiator, reconditioned waterpump etc.) but there are parts on that now that could go (dashboard, ECU etc.) and it would probably not be worth fixing. Is the same with cars to some extent, I rely on bangernomics and the sweet spot there is something like a MK1 Ford Focus. For my next bike it will either be new (and cheaper like the Voge or CFMoto) or more likely old and fixable.
What you've described also applies in part to some other sectors. Around 2020 there was a massive increase in the interest and demand for caravans, camper vans, motorhomes. Supply was very constrained (we had to wait 23 months for a factory order). Prices of new and 2nd hand vehicles increased dramatically. Whilst not a bust. there is now a serious correction in prices. 2024 stock is being heavily discounted to make way for 2025 stock and orders. The prices of 2nd hand stock is also reducing and an increasing number of dealers are going out of business. It can be a challenge to get an MOT, service or repair as the infrastructure is strinking. I think the laws of supply and demand will prevail so those left will be more in demand, make a better margin and therefore a more sustainable business model.
G'day Nathe You make a lot of good points there sadly the industry is undoubtedly in decline. I have been around motorcycles for over 50 years since the early 70s the only way I could sustain ownership of my bikes is by staying as far away from the dealership as possible only darkening their doorstep for the spares for the maintenance and repair fortunately my mechanical ability has allowed me to do so. But that hasn't helped the industry much we are lucky here in Australia that most of the service centres that rego cars also do bikes and don't know much about them. I've noticed a lot of the dealerships getting quite expensive with spares and accessories to the point where most shops are like ghost towns all the bikes have extremely expensive components that require a healthy bank account to keep up with the maintenance schedule especially the niche European brands that are ready to race supposedly so really they seem to have priced themselves out of the game unless they can come up with more reliable & affordable options that don't have the tonnage of the Bismarck. I do try to support my local bike shop but everyone has to the dealerships have to play the game as well by giving reasonable prices
That’s a real honest and realistic view of the industry, I totally agree . There are so many factors causing this , bike theft , bad wet weather most of the year , price ! I personally think used stock is way to expensive! For most it’s a hobby or toy . Two big bike dealers have recently closed in Sheffield ( a busy city ) Keep up the good work .
It’s partly the UK insurance system - where I live in Australia the third party injury insurance is part of the cost of yearly registration costs to the government. Which ranges from approx £50/yr for a 125 to £400 for a bike over 500cc. It’s then your choice if you wasn’t to insure other people’s property or your bike, and if you do it’s cheap unless you ride exotica….
Couldn’t agree more. Pidcocks bmw and triumph just gone into administration along with Completely motorbikes and Midlands Superbikes in the last couple of months. Kids aren’t bothered about doing tests when they can buy an electric thing online and ride with their mates in balaclavas! Scary really.
I think one of the problems is that bikes have become much more complex needing specialist kit to service them. Combined with relatively low volumes means it’s just not worth investing in them. I think the injection of well priced Chinese bikes may help entice people into the dealerships. Large complicated machines costing well north of £15k in many cases are not the answer. Final comment, motorhome and boat dealerships post Covid went did very well with stupid prices….and now they are suffering….I think the same can be said for the expensive premium brand motorcycle manufacturers. Our local Triumph dealer has said their showroom would be dead but for the new 400s.
Just because high end motorcycles are complex and cost stupid amounts of money, doesn't mean there aren't plenty of cheap, simple bikes also on the market.
You make solid points mate. My personal addition to your already great narrative is that it is kind of like Nokia vs the cellphone industry where Nokia made excellent phones but the market just moved on, the answer to future of motorcycling industry does not lie in the industry itself but the other industries that may affect it.
Dear Nathan although not a motorcyclist and too old now I appreciate your thoughtful discussions. Was interested in getting a classic A2 car however that would only be realistic if I could do the essential maintenance and repair myself. So unfortunately unrealistic. Do I really need a car? Donated my Roomster to the Ukraine. Best wishes for all you do.
Good one Nathan, it might be a geographical/employment issue because I purchased a nearly new Kawasaki two weeks ago from Nirvana in Tamworth, not their proper name but might as well be they were so professional! Nothing was too much, fair trade in price but most importantly, the place was buzzing, staff and customers alike, ( on a weekday )! My analogy is because Tamworth is an hour from everywhere in the Midlands where there is employment of every kind, the dealer was 101% into staff who sell/maintain and manage the business, the bottom floor was full of Triumph, upstairs Honda ,yet their sales this year so far, above target! They are only 7 hours away from me but guess what, I shall be using them again no-question!
Interesting vlog Nathan, and something that I agree. Here on guernsey, an island of some sixty-five thousand people the ebike is the one that’s flourished over the last year or so. And our local Yamaha dealer has been the one diversify into this market selling their e-bikes in the hundreds at knockdown prices. In days gone by it would have been scooters flying out the door for commuting not so now unless they are electric to. Sign of the times I’m afraid.
High Nathan When are you next in Northamptonshire with your CF moto 450MT ?? I have ordered one but not seen one in the person as yet ?? If you were about I would like to come and have a look Thanks John
Some manufacturers going well like Triumph (sales up globally by a staggering 37%), Royal Enfield, quality improvements and some cracking new bikes, Honda, diverse range of good bikes, same with Yamaha. Others, like KTM have had quality issues and Harley Davidson have been caught (and maybe overtaken) by Indian in the Americana sector. UK sales have suffered this year from the poor weather in spring and early summer, critical for new bike purchases.
The biggest issue is the barrier to entry. One thousand pounds for a license is just ridiculous. And doing the tests as a private individual is nearly impossible if you don't have a support structure that you rarely have if you ain't from a family of bikers
Hi Nathan , great thought provoking vlog as usual . I have a real issue on the licensing front and its archaic structure and believe this is a major obstacle in bringing new people into biking . My local test centre has a 4 month wait for a test date ! They have even taken bike examiners off bike testing and put them on car tests and not been able to replaced retiring examiners either because you can earn more as an instructor than you can as an examiner ? ! And when you start delving as to why all this is , they are still blaming the Covid backlog and say ' oh well , motorcycling is just a leisure pastime and recreational ' . No , lots of people use/want a bike to get to work and back. Also , after CBT , a full license training course is going to cost you aound £900. Another gripe I have is the huge increase in people on just a CBT and 'learners' being allowed to work commercially as delivery riders , all going along with their feet hanging down ! Who told them that was a good idea ? So , apart from the motorcycle manufacturers and dealership problems , the whole training side needs a serious shake up but that's government led and regulated , so it won't happen I suspect . End of rant .
I'm nearly 60 years old and I've been watching this situation slowly evolving, all of my life. I have, for the last 45 years, serviced my own vehicles, myself. It costs me the price of the parts and a little extra for the Postman to bring me the parts, I need for the job. I have a couple of bikes that I imported into the Island where I live, as non dealer, private imports. There is no local dealer for either bike. The nearest one is a day away by sea travel! I buy all of my spares directly from Italy and fit them myself. Motorcycling is not like owning a car, it is or can be, a completely involving hobby. Sadly, in their modern form, motorcycle dealerships are not viable as businesses. A lot of "the motorcycling world" has done this to themselves. Look at motorcycling from the 1950s, when it was in its hay-day, and compare it to now. I'm not sure that anyone needs a 200 mph motorcycle and I'm pretty sure that no-one needs a motorcycle that costs £600.00 to £800.00 for an annual service either. A dealer local to me tells me that they sell electric bicycles in a ratio of at least 10 to 1 compared to new motorcycle sales. (The reason being that you don't need a licence for a bicycle.) I might suggest that the future will be that motorcycling will become the preserve of those people who don't have a 'phone permanently stuck to their hands and can operate a socket set. 😁😁.
I've been in the motorcycle trade since 2011 until May this year. There's a few reasons I left but job security was one. I'm in my early 30's and I don't see me being able to support my family in another 10 years due to most of the points in this video. Most people I sold bikes to were 50+ and as brutal as this will sound once that age group is unable to ride or dead I'm convinced the industry in the UK will be knackered! I think motorcycle theft and insurance costs are pricing people out of bikes too but that's all of the motor trade.
Most interesting. And very well observed. I confess I am a 61-year old who hasn't ridden for decades, but when I did, I REALLY did. I was a courier and I often used holidays to ride across Europe. Most of the riders I see now are aged 40-55 and have come back recently to motorcycles or are relative newcomers. They seem to lean towards "brands" and "a look". I notice also that as soon as a bike is bought, expensive aftermarket parrs are added. In my younger years we used to tinker with suspension, exhausts and more... But it was much more than just booking it on to have the can changed. All very rum. Bikes are increasingly a "Sunday morning leisure option" rather than a way of living. Anyway.... A very thoughtful piece.
Not having a pop, genuinely curious as to why you don't ride now? I'm 60, ex courier too, 20+ yrs away from riding, got back into it 2 yrs ago - best thing I've (ever?) done!
@@dez_au_lait394 Fair question. We were expecting a child. As soon as I heard the news, I decided #1. No more ciggies. #2. No more motorcycling. I missed it - in many ways I still do. Ciggies, too. But I don't regret either decision. I am still fascinated by bikes. I cycle still (there is a deeper link there than some people admit) and do (or have done) other things that involve a degree of risk, but ciggies and bikes seemed the key ones. And I'd had a good run on the bikes.
It takes so long to get your bike worked on at the dealer, I have learned how to work on my bike. Now I have gone back to air cooled bikes with carbs because they are easier. My only EFI bike is my Moto Guzzi. I teach motorcycle training in the US and while we always fill the classes it’s hard to find instructors. Our state even offers the basic, intermediate and advanced classes for free. When off roading (thanks @nathanmillward for getting me excited about that at sweet lamb) there are no young people showing up with bikes that run $20-30k with gear and trailers, etc
Excellent vlog Nathan and very thought provoking. A couple of thoughts from me would be: One; that the testing system has been gamed by a lot of western governments to be yet another stealth tax. A simpler, better system would be passing a test on a small motorbike/moped then a series of timeframe and power restricted periods before you can take the next step up in power before getting all the way to a 1000cc or more. No one wants to see an 18 year old wipe themselves out on an R1 but is the current testing system anything more than an income tax mechanism? Say, 1 year at 125cc, 2 years @ 250/300cc, 2 years @ 660cc then 2 years at 750cc. Start at 17 and you can get a 1000cc when you're 24 and having had only one set of tests to pass BUT you will have gained so much real life experience at that point. Much more affordable for kids who are interested in getting into it. Secondly; the motorcycle manufacturers have been neglecting what current riders actually want. Admittedly, all I really know much about is the adventure bike and enduro segment of the market but people have been crying out for a reliable sub-500cc adventure bike for ages and getting nowhere as the manufacturers chose to protect their cash cows at the top end of the market - looking at you here especially Honda. The Chinese have spotted this gap in the market and in they sail. I wasn't around for when the Japanese manufacturers entered the bike market back in the '60-70's but it sure looks to me that the same thing may happen again
Hopefully the popularity of smaller cc bikes(300-500) will continue and then in 3 or 4 years time there’ll be some cheap second hand bikes on the market that young people can afford
Yeah I read that this morning. Bought my gs1200 from them back in 2016. Nice guys. I gather it's partly due to pressure to invest in premises from BMW. Which I never understand because manufacturers just lose dealerships and points of sale, all for an uprated coffee machine. The industry's ruining its own.
Can't say I'm surprised at them closing. I change bike annually and visited them. Their part ex offer for my bike was £2700 less than the next nearest offer, and over £3k less than another BMW dealer.
I'd welcome the return of the Back Street small niche operator. I'm just about there myself. I went into my garage the other day, and the smell of damp timber, used engine oil and rubber tool my right back to the old bike shops of my youth. Well kitted out, with tyre machine, balancer, mill, lathe, welder, bike lifts, just about every tool you could need. Powder coating set up coming soon. In Glasgow we used to have smelly bike shops in the ground floor of tennament buildings with residential housing directly above. It is sad to hear Saltire closing though, one of the best set ups in Scotland with indoor cbt court, cafe, social set up and multi franchise. Overheads must have been huge.
Yes. But 2 points. 1. As a 17yr old over 40yrs ago I had to repair and service myself. Still at school and my Saturday/midweek job serving petrol meant I had too. And the bikes allowed it. 2. I think you're talking about the UK. Emerging markets in the far East abd then South America might be where manufacturers focus their efforts, and we might be able to cling to this. On a personal note now I'm completely with you. Get out and ride and use the industry. My own dealer in a family run business and treat me like a person, not just another punter. And all the cafes and restaurants we use when not away travelling need us to. To lose all this would be tragic. But like you, I'm paddling hard. Ride safe 👍 Ps. If bikes weren't so expensive, maybe more people might consider it. Eg, cf moto, Royal Enfield, etc. Manufacturers, take note!
A useful ponder.... My daughter, Olive, is 15 & we are looking forward to getting her a 50cc (with gears). At 17 she will get a 125 & hopefully pass her test. Olive is good at French & Spanish, I'm awful, so we are planning a jaunt in those countries, her on her 125, me on something smaller than the NC750X I ride now, possibly a Scram or that era Himalayan. My wife has a license, not had a bike in years, so the 125 will get ridden by her & Olive. Son says he also wants to ride. We are in Argyll, awesome roads, 2000mm rain yearly, but not much snow. Fingers crossed plans come to fruition. Electric bikes: I love driving NHS electric pool cars. Acceleration is fantastic. I reckon ebikes could be a load of fun, even if they have no exhaust note. Range is always the biggest issue, but the Chinese are very good at advancing technology so maybe by 2035 it won't be such a concern.
Hi Nathan, I'm surprised no one has mentioned recent articles about motorcyclists riding in group's. This stems from people complaining about car cruise meet up's. I think it was Newcastle that are considering banning car gatherings and are also extending that too motorcycles! Their proposal's are suggesting to ban any more than two motorcycles riding together at anytime,the only expectation being if it is a charity ride raising money 🤔😡
Thriving industry in Japan - but then again here we do not have to worry about cops around every corner with DB meters wanting to take our bikes away. If I was back in EU or even AU I would not be riding. Too much hassle.
Dyrons in Leeds went a couple of weeks ago, I'm 65 years old now and it had been on the go since before my first moped at 16 years old. I frequent Squires biker café on a regular basis and there's plenty of young riders there but the main topic of their conversation is usually the cost of insurance, £2500 for some for just a 125cc.
I don't think it's just the motorcycle industry who are having a bad year, many industries are, but it's those with high overheads & tight margins who suffer the most, and the motorcycle industry as you rightly point out is one of those. Many things are cyclical & l think as & when the economy improves & people move into their 'mid life crisis' era, demand will increase & supply will be created to match. Let's hope it happens sooner rather than later
Wise words Nathan.. IMO this is happening across a lots of Mechanical industries. Look at the troubles at VW, KTM.. The closure of major bicycle and Mountain Bike companies. We are seeing a Paradigm shift in transportation since the boom of lock down and the uncertainty for ICE future, government legislation, cost of living are all playing into the decline. I work in the entertainment industry and it seems all discretionary spending has been vastly reduced. I don't think it will be the death of motorcycling but we will see a shift in what form that takes. Companies that cannot keep up or transition will unfortunately disappear.
I think that the companies you mention tried to profit on the back of covid and the massive increase in pushbike sales. Now its a dead duck and theres no way they can keep producing stuff thats not getting sold
My local multi franchise dealer has just given up its BMW franchise because of the demands by BMW on spending on their showroom (which was pretty new and very nice anyway) and the numbers of bikes they were expected to sell, this on top of the number of recalls on the bikes and the resulting dissatisfaction of customers. Instead of BMW fixing known recall faults before shipping, they ship the bike and then expect the dealer to rectify it after the bike is sold. This means that anyone with a BMW now faces at 1 1/2 hour trip to the nearest BMW dealer which will deter people from the brand.
During the pandemic, Oregon motorcycle shops sold ALOT of bikes. There are ALOT of riders selling those used bike on their own right now. It might take a while for the market to steady itself again.
Very well said Nathan, sadly all very true, as a rider of 40 plus years I fear for the future of motorcycling, the industry as a whole is very much diminishing, which is a shame for future generations who will not know the pleasure of the freedom on 2 wheels
I think you have summed it up quite nicely Nathan, it’s a concern we as motorcyclists should come together over it and the future so we have a voice! At 90+ to a gallon my 450 Enfield Himalayan is better on the road than my car doing 32 mpg. You would think government would rush to get more motorists out of cars and onto wheels? If I was PM I would be pushing motorcyclists and motorcycle ownership
I feel very fortunate to be retired in Thailand where yhe majority of the population ride bikes. Theyre cheap to buy here and insurance isnt expensive. Back in the UK i had a Car and a bike and it had come to the point where i had to choose between the Car and the bike because i couldnt afford to tax and insure both. As a biker of 55 years (I'm in my 70's) it was one of the best decisions ive ever made!
I think a large part of the problem is a mixture of pricing, costs and disposable income, or lack of. IMO the mid range bikes are too expensive, the "premium" ones are simply daft and the overall costs of entry to the sport, gear, insurance, training etc. push people past the limit. As for disposable income, when you think of ordinary(ish) families, with maybe 4 smartphones and their supply contracts, Sky TV, a lot of day to day spending strung out on credit cards and a car to run (and a car is pretty much a necessity today), there's not much left for toys.
I have come around to thinking cheaper and simpler bikes are better. I have three. The most I paid was about six grand GBP for a two-and-a-bit-year-old SCR950 with next to no miles. Just over three grand for my 390 Duke and 1,500 GBP for my 155. These were in Thailand. Just over ten grand for three bikes, one of them new, two immaculate almost new. Why pay more? Good video, Nathan.
Unfortunately a Cbt is a one day event, you can’t physically teach someone enough in that time to make the system you suggest work in a safe practical way.
@@davidfluffy34 my cbt was1hour I've been on the road since92 and passed my main license about 1 month after my cbt So no, it doesn't need to be a full day Then there is the other license restrictions, a1 and a2 and then main but you have to serve time ? Wtf
@@ogasi1798 that was 1992 , a few things have changed since then , remember it only started in 1990 as prototype scheme , it was revised several times within the first few years due to not being fit for purpose, hence the current framework, to think you can put some one out on the road to learn by their mistakes is a little naive and dangerous, the minimum standards required are for a Cbt course to last 5-6 hrs but that is teaching the very very basics
Nathan very interesting vlog and on point certainly food for thought here in Australia Motorcycling seems to be on the up but i agree it’s centred around bigger dealerships the other issue is around the technology that bikes use now that make you take them back to the dealer who has the electronic diagnostic equipment. I have a lot of time for Royal Enfields motorcycles because of their basic simplicity 😊
You say about having a staged licence approach so that new riders don’t go out and get a powerful bike at the first stage, however car drivers can get anything they want and they tend to have less special awareness than bike riders. Being old school I did not have to do a CBT to ride on the road and my test was a single test where the examiner was on foot and sent me around the streets and he would run down the alleys to watch me go by. So where I only had 1 test you now have 3. I think it would be better if they mixed up the two, do a CBT then, depending on your age you ride a 50cc or 125cc for a year, allow that to then step up to say the A2 requirement automatically after a year and then take a test before being able to get a bigger capacity (HP) bike. That would be a fairer system
Absolutely brilliant observation of where the world is at right now. I’m 57, from Australia and grew up on land where we could ride mini MX bikes freely. I grew up loving the sensory magic of riding 2 stroke bikes, ripping them hard on dirt tracks and all the micro skills associated with it. Then we had to maintain them, learn mechanical skills which we grew to love and built our confidence within ourselves. Still love my riding, came back to it after a long break. Love my surfing too. When my business gets too much, my amazing family don’t begrudge me my time to ride or surf. Times have changed. Kids have new pass times to entertain them. But if we can get these kids to experience more than just indoor activity, or just something new, slightly risky and considering all other outdoor pursuits, motorcycling is one of the most back to basics, sense enhancing activities one can experience on dirt or road. So it’s dangerous, apparently. Own it. Take your life into your own hands and buy a motorcycle. Learn to ride it and think for everyone else around you when they do not. Maintain it, or respect those who can do it for you with the professionalism involved to keep you safe. Likewise, if motorcycles aren’t your thing, learn to ride a horse, surf, mountain bike, whatever, but be prepared to pay for tuition from those who have the skills to help you become a better version of yourself. You only live once. If you’ve read this far and regret it, my apologies. 🙏
56 year old dirt biker and surfer here. Agree with every word you write. I think as your window of physical fitness shrinks, you value it more.
True my friend,its the same with guitar playing ,its just one of a range of options that todays "yoof"can choose from.Its also worth bearing in mind the economic downturn has a big effect.
Many younger people in their work choices dont want to do physically demanding jobs anymore but dream of being their own CEO of some computer based job.
The world is a changed place since i grew up and i dont feel and am not especially"old"!
I will keep riding my dirt/dual sport motorcycles as long as i can!
Back in 1980 I got mobile on an FS1E. I couldn't believe how great it was to be able to meet up with mates and be independent. Youngsters now have this online connection and perhaps don't see the need to physically meet up as much.
Cost is a major factor, but ultimately, the government isn't bothered about the motorcycle community. You will soon see the bottom fall out of the classic bike market as folks older than me fall off the perch and the skills to fix these old bikes also dies out.
A thoughtful if slightly depressing vid. People like yourself are helping, and it's always good to see some younger people still jump through all the hoops to get a motorcycle licence.
motorcycling was once a complete involvement with your machine, you did the maintenance , checked the tightness of everything, changed the oil, checked the tappets, you did almost everything, it was you best friend, it took you to places that were inaccessible to others, it was a oneness, now sadly a lot of that has gone , fuel injection, electronics , masses of wiring, expensive parts, needing a computer to fault find and set it up, all of this has taken away from the way it was and reduced that complete involvement .
100% true
If you truly understand how a carburetor works then you can understand fuel injection.
@@batterybuilding i think the point he is making that a carb is fully mechanical, a fuel injection system isn't; one can be fully self-serviced, the other not so much.
Ride a 1970's Harley! It's exactly as it was, aftermarket parts and second-hand parts market is huge. No electronics - just electrics.
Barrier to entry is just way to high for young people. Regardless of ones opinions on safety how they've structured the testing makes it virtually impossible for countless people to give motorcycling a go and at the end of the day most of us fell in love with motorcycles because we were lucky enough to have a go on one!
I'm on a pension and it IS INSANITY. I'm on the point of giving up bc the school is talking £1100 and bear in mind I've been driving for 51 years..
In America, you buy a $2,000 bike, practice in a parking lot, take a course for 2 days ($100) or go straight to the DMV to test and you’re riding.
@@cowmath77 thing is ok UK roads, you'ld be dead within the month if we had the same system here - it is hard to pass but the barrier to entry is really intentional so younger riders can't really do it
also less young people are learning to drive in the UK as they move to cities with good public transport and cost of running any vehicle rockets!
@@cowmath77 In PA all I see riding are middle aged white dudes - I think the cost of the bikes and all the points Nathan listed are barriers. Especially when for the cost of a reasonable used bike you can get a car, which while is not as fun is more practical.
@@cryptokev1759 the cost of a reasonable used bike is $2000 to $3000. You can also buy a brand new bike for $6,000 that will cost you $200 a month. A used car? That’s nonsense.
Insurance on my Speed Triple and Ducati scrambler costs me $71 a month, and I was involved in a crash that totaled my bike.
You’re not paying attention to the reality if you think this hobby costs too much.
I think the killer is insurance. My son's 17 after Christmas, looked at used Chinese scrambler style 125s. Cheap enough to buy but insurance quotes were between 4 and 5 GRAND. Ridiculous and sadly unaffordable
@@sleepyrider It’s totally outrageous, the insurance companies are taking piss in every sense. When I was 17, many decades ago, it was cheap to insure a GP100 which was my first bike. Basically the government is trying to discourage anything that might be considered risky and fun.
Try Bikesure - my lad paid £800 fully comp off them at age 17 riding a brand new Honda CB125F. And look at 3rd party too - in some ways fully comp is pointless with huge excess fees
It’s partly the UK insurance system - were I live in Australia the third party injury insurance is part of the cost of yearly registration costs to the government. Which ranges from approx £50/yr for a 125 to £400 for a bike over 500cc. It’s then your choice if you wasn’t to insure other people’s property or your bike, and if you do it’s cheap unless you ride exotica….
@@pauls8456 I'd really welcome an insurance system similar to Australia or New Zealand. Sure, registration/tax equivalent was more expensive during the couple years I lived in New Zealand, but insurance was reasonable and most bikes so it worked out much cheaper, theft wasn't really a concern, and there were a lot more bike shops and generally people riding.
Insurance prices and having somewhere to securely keep a bike are probably the two biggest barriers to entry for potential younger motorcyclists in the UK.
I must disagree. Insuring my 2021 MT-03 to state min coverage was $170 annually.
On a more upbeat note, I'm encouraged by the number of young and older UA-camrs going on biking adventures, some for the first time, and the likes of Itchy Boots on her famous travels even reviving an older bike for her next trip-it's got me enthusiastic about touring again.
Tinkering was always part and parcel of owning a bike. Best thing about older bikes is you can easily maintain them yourself with a couple of hundred quids worth of tools. It's all part of the hobby
First off, I want to say I really, really like the style of presentation. Sitting down talking to camera it's so much better than the endless number of MotoVloggers who record a boring bit of riding and then sit at whom reading a prepared monologue over the top.
Thanks Nathan it's such a refreshing change.
As to the state of motorcycling in the UK, I think the root of the problem is that two wheels are no longer seen as transport.
And that goes way back before anyone is old enough to get on a motorcycle. I'm willing to bet a penny to a pound that for the majority of riders today their first experience of two wheeled freedom was on a bicycle.
Compare that to today, where cycling, just like motorcycling, is seen as a hobby, a leisure activity. How many kids cycle to school? Instead helicopter parents either put their kids on the bus or clog up the roads driving their precious offspring back and forth to school, to football, to after-school clubs.
And from that comes the idea that two wheeled transport is dangerous, that the car is the solution. Is it a coincidence that in the Netherlands where cycling is commonplace motorcycle ownership per capita is almost double that of the UK?
Motorcycling in the UK is a hobby, a leisure activity or a sport. And just like any leisure activity it's sold as such by the majority of manufacturers not just of motorcycles but also equipment, clothing etc. It's presented as such by the vast majority of the motorcycle media from MCN to UA-cam and lapped up by a great many riders.
Even the motorcycle training industry sells it that way, with multi-day training courses sold for a high upfront fee. Yes I do see issues with the a tiered licencing regime, I think if it were possible to do the test on a bike in the category below ie A2 on an A1, A on an A2, as it was prior to the latest changes, so you could use your own bike, it would help to reduce the cost of entry with probably little to no impact on safety.
Is it all a revenue raiser for the government, not if you look at the costs of the tests themselves - £23 for Theory, £15.50 for Mod1 and £75 for Mod2 I doubt they make any money at all.
Where cost becomes a barrier for young people is the training. A CBT might be relatively affordable at between £100 to £150 including bike, jacket and helmet hire, but the way training for test is sold, the DAS course creates a major financial stumbling block which rider training sold as an intensive course spread over 4-5 days. Compare that to car driver training usually in 1 hour lessons spread often over the course of a number of months.
Looking at those costs, a four or five day motorcycle course is in the region of £900-£1100 or a little over £30/hour. This is similar to driver training costs which are in the region of £25-35/hour.
The big difference that makes one affordable and the other not, especially for a young person, is that one is paid in a lump sum, the other over several months.
And while we're looking at costs, let's not forget back in the 50's and 60's the heyday of British motorcycling the school leaving age was 15, with a couple of years of saving and easily available HP you had the deposit to put down on a motorcycle by time you were old enough to ride one.
The mid-70's to 80's with tougher licencing requirements and a rise in school leaving age to 16 saw the rise of the 50cc, a Fizzie might have been the dream, but those first few pay packets could still buy you something that burnt two-stroke faster than it went up the road.
Now in 2024 with the school leaving age at 18 and many young people going onto some form of higher education, any form of their own powered mobility is beyond financial reach. So it makes more sense to do the driving test and borrow mum's car.
My hope is the rise of e-mobility, if only the government could be persuaded to actually do something about it and if only the motorcycle industry would take it under their wing. What we need is for the legalisation of low powered e-scooters and e-motos rideable from 14 years of age just as e-bikes are currently. Training could be done in schools like the Cycling Proficiency test of old, and kids could learn the joys of two wheeled motoring at a younger age on simmering far more affordable.
So that's motorcycle training schools offering one to two hours lessons, which could be slotted in after school or at the weekend like driving lessons, a motorcycle industry selling affordable e-motos to pull people to showrooms and small capacity bikes for when they're old enough to ride and most importantly more parents letting their offspring out on bicycles and e-mobility so they appreciate the freedom of their own transport.
With all of that I reckon we might just see enough young people considering motorcycling in the UK to prevent the whole thing collapsing when we're too old to swing a leg across a machine.
@@AlexOnABoat and that lump sum is what's stopping me progressing ATM (on a pension with a 2006 125)
Maybe I'm just lucky, but I have two motorcycle training centres within a few mile radius of me (one in my town). The DAS course I'm currently learning on at Triskelion motorcycle training (north east Derbyshire) is £950 for as much training as is required including test fees (although re-tests have to be paid for, there is a £1150 tier course that includes re-tests), and it's spread out as long as necessary. I can only really go on weekends so my rate of training has gone down (my last session was cancelled due to rain), they basically just book me in for the next time I can go.
The payments are also spread out as long as you need, but they want a minimum payment before starting training, and all of it before the final Mod 2 test.
The A1 and A2 tiers are also cheaper, £800 and £900 respectively. If you are more experienced and only need 21hours of training, there are also cheaper courses £700-850. You can also pay £100 more to take your tests on a Harley Davidson Sportster if you really wanted to.
The sound of reason and wisdom Nathan - it’s been coming for years this reckoning, bikes becoming so expensive now some are bordering on and surpassing ridiculous. I very nearly dipped into my savings and bought one of these bikes from 15 - 20k market. Thankfully sanity prevailed and I realised I just don’t need one for my next new bike which I’ve decided is in the under 6k market now. Selling my 3 other bikes and simplifying my life with only one bike now.
Just what I’m thinking and no doubt a lot of older riders. Hence the increased sales of 400cc bikes.
Very sobering Nathan.
@@ianfutcher1518 I’ve tried some of the 4 - 500cc bikes and they’re huge fun at sensible speeds on the country roads and the congested main ones too. Thought they were going to be gutless compared to some of my super bikes but in reality they’re not. They’re much lighter, more manageable and made me realise 40 - 50hp is fine for every day riding and even further afield. Can’t wait to get my new 450MT next spring.
@@RichardS-qh8mi I like the sound of the 450MT but have concerns with the resale value of these and others such as Royal Enfield which have seemed to have plummeted. Also parts and servicing for the Chinese bikes is not exactly welcomed by many motorcycle workshops. Shame because they look like great bikes.
@@ianfutcher1518 I understand your concerns, but I’m a long term owner of all the different bikes I’ve owned over the decades. This 450MT will likely be my last main bike and I may just keep one of my classics too. Just want a relatively lightweight bike I can just jump on and go anywhere whilst having fun. In a few years I suspect CF Moto will have a much bigger global network of distribution, dealers and spares. If you keep a new bike for 4 years or more you’ve had your value.
My daughter has just done her cbt and bought a 125cc but the insurance is so high that she can’t keep it near her student digs so has to leave it at home. This means she’ll be lucky to ride it once a month. I’m sure it’s the insurance that stops the younger generation pursue their dream.
Get an ebike! No license, no insurance, no testing and you get to ride for free, for now. It's time to wake up to a world that's changing at warp speed. A diminishing MC culture is the least of our worries, all our former freedoms will be in the rearview mirror..
Well said Nathan. Motorcycles use to be a first step to independence & transport for youngsters. They were our transport for commuting and everything else. It was way cheaper to get into motorcycling than it was to start driving a car. Now that has completely reversed. The roads are much busier & it’s cheaper and easier for youngsters to get a car licence and pick up a cheap car, than it is to get into motorcycling.
I don’t think the British weather helps. Youngsters now would rather sit in a warm dry car with the heater on and their phones linked up. Turn up at any bike night and you’ll find the vast majority of the guys there are over 50. I also agree with you on the point of maintenance costs and repairs it’s become very expensive to have a set of carbs serviced and not all bike workshops have trained staff willing to do the work. The manufacturers don’t help with new bikes either. I do my own maintenance but even accessing a set of spark plugs these days, can mean an hour of stripping bits to get at the spark plugs, & another hour to put it back together. If a main dealer charges £100 an hour that’s a couple of hundred quid for what should be a straight forward simple job, and probably stops youngsters learning.
I see motorcycling becoming just an older persons hobby, rather than a sustainable form of transport for the masses, which our government should be encouraging as they are better for the roads and environment.
You are right. The youngsters got rich and do not need motorcycles anymore.
Exactly. And I would like to add that the lack of investment in low cc bikes. In the 90´´s there a ton of diferente bikes and models 50cc, 125cc, 250cc and so on. Nowdays Honda only have one trail bike model the crf300 per example. There isn´t any investment in the market of low powered bikes and all they do is investing in high power bikes and ADV style. It´s really sad the market is like this nowadays. Cheers
In Germany car license is more expensive than motorbike license. Car license is anywhere around 3000-4000€. A motorcycle license is a step cheaper. Anywhere around 2500-3500€. It's still very expensive. Insurance for bikes is a lot cheaper than for cars also. Bikes are my passion, cars I use for transit and transport.
Brilliant video Nathan, and great comments below from all the guys that obviously understand our pastime and can see why it is coming to an end as we traditionally know it. I understand why mainstream manufacturers have, with the help of our biking press, dragged us ever upwards in terms of cost & complexity - the manufacturers make more money and our non-critical press love blowing smoke up the hoop of manufacturers and zooming about on their latest creations. Generally "mopeds", scooters & small bikes are mostly ignored and that is to the detriment of biking, and any test or review on these smaller machines tends to be done with joking sneer, and unlikely to coax newbies onto 2 wheels. Without much media exposure Enfield, CF Moto, Voge etc seem to be gaining a foothold and that might help turn things around ..... if its not too late !?
A quick look on Statista shows the worldwide motorcycle market looks in good health. Hence, the manufacturers are doing fine. The problem may be just the UK, which won't really worry the manufactures too much I guess.I'd like to know more about what is happening in the UK though.
Interesting. I’d agree. When we got into motorcycling (I’m 60), we did it because it was straightforward and it was a cheap entry into transport. I do my own maintenance, because I’m another rare breed, an engineer who did a proper apprenticeship and spent a career in engineering. I have two bikes, both bought new and neither have ever been to a dealer because I can do the maintenance better than they do. Just as proof my Enfield 350 classic went back to the original dealer for its 300 mile service and they set the valves miles out, overfilled the oil and tightened the chain so much you could have fired arrows from it. At that point I decided it would never go back to a dealer. Trouble is this doesn’t support our dealer/servicing network. Now the Enfield dealer in Exeter is excellent (it wasn’t them) and I use them for parts and would buy a bike from them. Getting to them is a 100 mile round trip for me.
There are fundamental issues here to do with the cost of running a business, the cost of renting premises, the lack of engineering apprenticeships and training in the industry, the cost of new bikes (I could easily buy a bike that cost more than my new, electric car, and that’s madness).
The industry, as with many, has been all about making a big profit rather than making a sustainable business. Selling over blown, over weight, over specified leisure toys and ignoring affordable transport and cheap to run bikes. Only Royal Enfield and the Chinese have been selling into that market and even they are heading down the lifestyle route now. May be it was forever thus, but yes, motorcycling is on its arse. Maybe it needs to fail in its current form before it bounces back in some new way.
P.s, I’ve just come back from a two week, 1600 mile (ish) tour around France on my 350 Enfield and it was blooming brilliant. Maybe it’s us customers that have lost our way and become desperate for more power to inflate our egos (and that we barely use). Just my thoughts😊
Your last paragraph is on the money - but ppl don't use their own mind and surcome to the advertising.... Pro rides in some far off location pulling wheelies....it's the way modern consumerism has been made the norm.
Very good,interesting thoughts! Appreciate it 👍
I agree with your opinion. 👍🏻
Agree, Sixty also but only got into road riding 4 years ago ( whole other story) grew up on farm bikes and dirt bikes though. Every time I see a fellow ADV rider take his helmet off I see a not so full head of grey hair. Interesting thing is most of us are interested in the mechanical side of it, as you say doing our own servicing , tinkering with the bike etc, but we all grew up on bikes that could be tinkered with ,ie pulling carbs apart putting in bigger jets , different needles, adjusting valves etc ( growing up on a farm you just learnt those things). I feel for the young ones now, the bikes are so complicated and high tech that riders miss out on half the experience of owning a bike ( maintaining it) they have to take it to a dealer for anything other than oil change or chain tension. I think maybe that's why less people are getting into riding, and why basic low cost bikes are still selling well.
Wise words as always Nathan.
My independent garage is still busy, the local big chain has loads of high priced second hand stuff and seems to have a decent turnover. Harley dealer is like a leather clad OAP home though and prices are boggling.
Other factors include the theft risk in cities, high insurance premiums and even the cost to park them .
Enjoy them while we can!
All the best from a blustery but glorious Brum
Hi Nathan, thoughtful perspective....I lived and worked in Asia (Hong Kong, China, Japan and others) for most of my working life. Returned to Europe to retire last year. Motorbiking in Asia is massive.....cheapest form of engined transport for many people with limited means. Necessity over there, for pleasure here in Europe/USA etc. How times have changed......
The cost of housing is also a big factor, so many people don’t have anywhere secure to keep a bike, I’m 50 with a decent career and can only dream of having a place with a garage, it puts me right off buying anything half decent
Storage shed ?
@@SomewhereInside Currently in the process of building one as it happens then the next bike will be snug and secure at night
Ultimately I think it comes down to cost for a lot of young people. If you don’t have new blood in any hobby/sport/internet with time it will die. The focus needs to be on bringing onboard new young riders.
Accessibility and affordability is everything…
Great vlog, some very insightful topics discussed
I think young people have more important things to prioritise, a car is more practical and insurance and maintaince on two vehicles is expensive af, also getting on the housing ladder requires a fucking massive deposit, cost of living bites too and I think motorcycles are just not a option for young people like they once were, you can make cheaper bikes but its not gonna solve the main problem of everything else, especially insurance which manufacturers have no control over.
@@BodybuildingSteve very good points!
Well said, we need to have this discussion and do whatever we can to keep motorcycling alive and thriving.
My wife has long said she'd like to give riding a go. She's not entirely certain and the £1000 entry cost for licences, before buying equipment and a machine, mean we've never taken her potential interest any further.
There needs to be a more feasible entry I think.
It's only money, I lost my wife to cancer at 47, I'd give anything to have her ride with me and go on camping trips etc. Totally understand where you're coming from, but nothing is guaranteed and memories are gold. I got into riding to cope with her death, just wish I had memories of riding with her when she was alive. If you can find the money it'd be well worth it.
It might help if motorcycle manufacturers stopped thinking of themselves as luxury automobile manufactures.
I think you're completely and utterly correct. And the consumer has tended to follow. Or fall by the wayside
Have to agree to that! It seems like motorcycle manufactures are catering only to the few wealthy buyers that are left with more and more expensive bikes and have totally forgotten about the future buyer coming behind them who are forced out by price so can’t even get started in motorcycling
But that's what they are! They are selling toys to over the 50's.
I think Honda is trying for the entry level market, they have a whole category of 125cc motorbikes on their website, while the dealers that are actually close to me like Triumph, Harley Davidson, Royal Enfield, and Suzuki don't have any 125 motorbikes (Suzuki do have 125 scooters though).
Honda even have a new rider program where they include everything to start riding: CB125F motorbike; motorcycle training (full licence); service plan; and rider gear all into one package that can be paid in monthly. For a CB125F the package is £5250 in total, or 36 monthly payments of £95 which is pretty reasonable.
What they need to do is take off £1000 if they just included a CBT and not full licence training, and get some sort of discounted monthly insurance (Honda could bargain prices down quite easily I would imagine) maybe like £70 a month at most (mine is £1300 for my first year). Maybe include a discount on decent bike locks. That would be around £150 a month all in (+ approx £10-20 fuel depending on use). That's about 14 hours on minimum wage or two full time days a month to pay for everything for the bike.
Then Honda should up their advertising budget and advertise it to everyone. They already have "You meet the nicest people on a Honda", slap it on a TV advertising campaign (probably best at end of next winter/early spring). Emphasise the fact it only takes a weekend to do your CBT and get everything sorted, call it the "Just Ride" programme or something. Make different packages for different age groups: the Grom for young people, CB125F and scooters for others, job done.
@@Bordpie Honda have always made small bikes. If you look beyond the main brands there are lots of small bikes out there. Better than Honda's toys like the Groms or the Monkey. Go look at South East Asia. The whole of society moves on two wheels on bikes of about 150cc in capacity.
Primary reason is mostly cost .. But the cost of everything else and since bikes are 'mostly' hobby, it's expensive
I agree with you, also overcrowded poorly maintained roads don't help.
It took a death in my family for me to finally get into motorcycling at 35yrs old.
I had a dream about getting into motorcycling as a hobby for years but could never really justify the expense.
A part of the inheritance of my grandmother's passing went towards that dream, getting a full license for 1k, riding gear for 1,5k and a second hand duke390 for 4k. I could have started on a 125 because local law allows it if you have a car license but I figured I would tire of it too soon (as I saw happen with a friend of mine).
I might have been able to get the bike on finance or something but I didn't want to get tied to such a plan when I wasn't even sure at the start if motorcycling would turn out to be a fun hobby and not a money-sink for something I couldn't do much of.
I've been riding for two years now, it's great fun so I'm keeping at it.
Since I'm enjoying it so much I may upgrade to another second-hand bike in a year or two.
I'm not using it to commute, I go to work by train or e-bike.
The cost to get started was the biggest hindrance (especially because I spent a bit more on safety gear to assure my wife and kids).
I hope the industry stays healthy enough, we don't seem to have it as bad with closing of businesses but I don't think we even have as many dealers or workshops as you seem to have in the UK so I guess they are getting caught up with the reality of this motorcycling "decline".
Some manufacturers might like to think that their bikes would sell like other electronics where you get a new one every other year but it seems like bikers bond more closely to their machines and stick with them instead. It's not like new bikes are bad (in most cases).
The prices (and features) have gone up but the demand isn't. Something seems very wrong in that sense.
You could do worse that get around on something like the RE Classic 350, it doesn't get any cheaper and simpler than that. The other worry is the Government persecution of motorists, which seems to be forever ramping up. Stuart Fillingham just released a video about Hackney council's plans to charge mopeds £6 / hour for parking. Whatever next?
Interesting comments. I am another who is in their 60`s 64 to be exact. I passed my test in 1978 aged 17
I have been saying the same for several years now. It was fun in 70`s and 80`s but I live in the crowded South East and the fun is going out of riding. Bikes and associated gear are now very expensive and young people either have other interests and are struggling to get on the housing ladder. Most places I go I am surrounded by older riders like myself. We are slowly dying out !
PS I ride often in Europe which is fun because the roads are not crowded.
You are very accurate in your assessment. In CDA, for example, Honda has made drastic and destructive policy moves over the years, including 2 tiered dealerships, poor product line choices, and elimination of at one time profitable product lines (push and riding mowers).
Not exclusive to Honda is the never ending arms race to produce faster, larger, more technically sophisticated motorcycles which are thus more expensive to buy and repair. This has been going on since the late 1980's, resulting in older, lightly used, mid-sized and larger motorcycles that have succumbed to garage rot, and because of their complication are too difficult and/or expensive for owners and mechanics to ressurect. This is complicated by the non-availability of often even common parts.
Here, if you try and find an older, smaller, and affordable bike to get your feet wet in motorcycling, they have literally not been produced for 30 of the past 40 years, and even then they have done zero promotion to get new people on practical, fun, and AFFORDABLE motorcycles.
I believe many manufactures bypassed 1 or 2 generations of customers chasing profit over product.
I'm nearly 40yrs in the trade and you are spot on. It's going the same way with cars. Lack of technicians means we can't cope with the demand. The future is grim unless something drastic is done.
I’m 63 and I think your’re probably right, as I look around some of the local gatherings here in Hampshire they’re usually pot bellied (although I’m not lol) bald headed blokes from my generation - a few younger guys show up now and again.
I spent around 19k on what will probably be my last bike a year ago, that said when the suns out you’ll see plenty of bikes out’n about where I live.
It would be very sad if it quietly vanished, but there’s no denying these are extremely tough times for younger people and it’s not getting any easier.
here in the Netherlands the industry is changing fast as well. Years ago I fount a great dealer, 2 man company, very good service, great prices. Yesterday he announced that his mechanic will leave the company and he will go on his own, just buing and selling bikes, no more workshop!
Same with a company I used to work for, was a big dealership years ago. Now the owner only sells bikes and has a webshop, no workshop!
Great video Nathan on a subject that I've feeling in my bones for quite some time, that the bike world is staring into the abyss. You're right that with the numbers of bikes that are currently being sold - not just in the UK, but in the 'western' world - the industry isn't sustainable. Certainly in Japan the R&D investment seems to be drying up, with most new models no more than rehashed old ones. As someone who's been enjoying life on two wheels since the 60's it does seem like the party is winding down. Quite why is the question though. There's a whole load of reasons that could be put forward, some of which you mentioned in the video, but in my observation motorcycles have been going down a slope over the last few decades from semi functional items with their place in the transport panoply to purely leisure objects. A leisure object that comes with a combination of societal and governmental 'disapproval' is going to have a hard time. Some will ignore that but many won't and seek their pleasure elsewhere. What, if anything, can we do about it would be too long for this comment but at an individual level I wonder if it's much more than a wringing of hands. Not terribly positive I'm afraid but that's where we are.
Major issue is how much of a PITA it is for new riders to get a licence. Stupidly complicated, and expensive.
Ohh YES. I need to ride for mental health, but I'd be throwing the towel in otherwise
@@CosmicSeeker69”Ride for mental health” - that is so true! If in doubt, think what it was like during covid. I used any excuse (shopping?) to get out on my bike!
I passed mine 38 years ago and it cost me more then than it did to learn to drive the car. My hourly lessons were £7 in the car ( yes really!), and I did 10 lessons. But my bike costs were fixed at £120 for the course ( cheapest I could get). And now it’s even more nuts. The government started making it difficult when they started changed the licensing regime in the early eighties.
@@pungarehu Did mine in 1988, no training, turned up on a old CB550 with a Velorex sidecar that I'd been riding for a couple of years. Tester followed me round the block on his bike for a while, then back to the test centre for a handful of questions on the Highway Code (maybe not the most thorough testing 😊). The general impression was that "if you can ride that bloody outfit without getting killed you've probably earned your licence"). I do feel for the youngsters today, they seem to get all the grief and little benefit from our current society.
Great Vlog Nathan & very true & sad insight into motorcycling. Let's hope we can all sustain it but it is getting harder in this 'throw away world'!
Multiple reasons in my view - 20mph speed limits and cameras everywhere certainly take the fun out of riding on the road. Pootling around at 20 or 30 mph makes riding a bike pointless. Coupled to that, lots of financial uncertainty for many people and less disposable cash for what is essentially a luxury item for most riders means the bike has to go.
Keep doing what you're doing Nathan - I'm sure your activities inspire many people who would otherwise not get involved 👍
Many folks in the comments are listing their ages, and most are 60 + (61 years here), which seems to support your assertion that we are aging out of the hobby. Conversely, I notice the proliferation of electric bicycles, which seem to be selling in large quantities even as the regular bicycle market is cratering post COVID. Most can easily do 20 mph (32 kph) and have decent range, can use bike lanes and don't need registration or insurance. They are light enough to bring up the lift in an apartment building. Just easier to own for a lot more benefit. I recently purchased one myself and it can do 31 mph (about 50 kph). It puts off no heat in city traffic and has a mountain bike frame with an air suspension front fork. It's fun, quiet and much cheaper than a motorcycle. I think that is where the future lies. That said, I have two bikes in my garage, a Kove 450 and a Triumph 1200 XE. I'll likely sell the Triumph because it's too heavy to push about the garage as I get older and I don't want to be stuck with it when the market truly craps out. I've grown old motorcycling, and it will always be part of my identity, but I understand why younger folks without a lot of money are going to e-bikes instead.
It sounds that whoever wants to experience the 'traditional' motorcycling should not hesitate too much longer. I hope to join the club next year myself.
My son wants to ride but we're surrounded by dual carriageways so a 50cc is just dangerous. 125cc borderline as he's a big boy. The 125cc rule should be bumped up slightly to 150/200 with 18-20 HP to allow for a bike that can hold 70-75 up dual carriageway hills.
for sure there should be an A3 or something that's easier than the A2 or DAS but limits you on power output, A2 bikes are still pretty powerful really, but if they had an A3 you could limit to say 25hp and I think riders would still have the skills to stay safe and later move up to FULL
I just came back from a bit longer summer stay in Poland and my observation is that there is so many more young bikers in Poland that it's actually unbelievable. Same in Germany. Plenty of young people riding mopeds there. Not in balaclavas though. I got an impression that it's so legally difficult and expensive to be a young biker in the UK, so the only youngsters who are into that nowadays are chavs on stolen machines...
I've come to motorcycling quite late in life but I am glad I have. It's a real privilege to be able to ride. You make some very good points. On top of those are the cost of insurance and many people not having somewhere to park the bike. So they are at risk of theft, which is at very high levels. Unfortunately it's going to cause a spiral where the is very little money for a mechanic to professionally work on an older bike. As fewer bikes stay on the road there will be even less work for the mechanics. I'm no particularly mechanically minded but I'm going to try to do as much work on my bike as possible so I am less reliant on someone else.
I’m 42 and recently got back on bikes after a 20 year gap, alright I’m older, but the size, speed, and volume of cars is insane, I feel really vulnerable riding on a Saturday/ Sunday if it’s a nice day, so ironically nip out during the week or on evenings as is quieter.
I imagine cost of living will prevent a lot of young people coming through, when I started in 2000 was no big deal to afford a car and a starter bike, can’t imagine kids these days can do that
Well spoken, not 100% sure if you are right in all aspects, but it’s worth to ponder it a bit. And yes, main thing is that we keep on riding on two wheels, regardless of all the temptation of ever better, more desireable products… I do probably have 15 years left ( already bought a 400x to have something easier to handle than my 955 Tiger, and yes, will ride as long as it goes…cheers!
Some very insightful observations. I feel your frustration...
Cheers Nathan, My 2 cents (or 2 pence) from the USA. I’m 59 and have been riding for over 40 years. I am also a career marketing professional and this hobby has all the marks of a ‘death-spiral’ - limited dealer network, limited selection, outrageous prices and dealer fees, etc. First, in the USA we do not have your compounded issues of ridiculous licensing schemes and theft is not that big of an issue. Insurance is fair and not outrageous-again most likely due to the low theft rate .vs UK. My age group is the ‘buying demographic’ here in the USA-mature riders (the younger generations behind us simply do not have the passion for the hobby nor the money$. Dealerships here in New England do not even offer test ride bikes-they expect you to sit on it in the showroom (if they have the bike you are looking for in stock…) and pay $10K+ for a 500cc+ bike. On manufacturer pricing - FFS did they not learn from the pandemic and inflationary pressures for the at least the past decade? Grocery prices and utility bills here have doubled per household in the past two years (food & heat or bikes?) For over a decade what we have needed here to stem the culling of the hobby is good, reliable, approachable sub $5K sub 500cc bikes. I’ve cleared my stable of a BMW R1200R, BMW 650 Classic and KLR 650 and now holding onto a 2019 CB300R that is light, nimble and super reliable ( a sub $5K sub 500cc bike ). I find myself watching these videos and looking at all the bikes overseas that they refuse to bring to the ‘backwater’ USA market. I am struggling to find a stablemate near it’s class here - maybe I’ll be surprised next year (I’ve been saying that for the past decade).
Amongst the other downsides in the UK is the awful weather.The last two summers have failed to appear and like most people I'm reaching for the car keys!I enjoyed your observations.
@@JohnWhite-hc8li Cloud Seeding.
@@JustinThyme007 surely not!!It has occurred to me.
@@JohnWhite-hc8li unfortunately, all too real. Maybe start by looking up ENMOD on Wiki, but before you do pour a strong cup of hot scepticism....Wiki is as bent as can be. Also have a dig into HAARP but as my name suggests, DONT use Google as it's been sanitised via AI and there's also a lot, a LOT of government sites posing as subject experts. Hopefully if you do a good job you'll end up with DEW we.apons, and if you do an exceptional job you might tie that in with 5G. Anyway, glad your intuition is working well.
@@JohnWhite-hc8li try again as my first post wasn't allowed.
I assume CBT is where you obtain your training for a motorcycle license, or Learners & Professional plates. They used to be facilitated by the government with local police departments, now are run private companies, however they don’t just do that, they run a fairly extensive collection training and workshops, you can learn adventure & off road riding, touring, bike maintenance it fairly good. The other point is only until recently have the small 250-450 cc bike return, most manufacturers have priced new riders out of the market. We had had a lot of dealership close or combined with others to big superstores with cafes and purpose built community areas. Harley is learning the hard way that the new corporate model and boutique pricing doesn’t work.
Dark, but honest, and ‘seen from the coal face’. I’m now 78, got two old bikes, and no one in my family is interested in M/C in the slightest. I do all my own mechanical work (couldn’t justify garage work for my slimmed down hobby). Maybe we’ve got too much money (as a nation) for ‘cheap travel’ to bring people into the powered two-wheeled hobby… no answers, just wondering. Les
GP450 is an interesting bike to have as a background for this conversation. CCM would be in a ideal place right now with the popularity of adventure bikes to come out with something decent but instead they choose to sell the weird expensive bikes that they do to people that only do 200 miles a year on them. I wonder how much longer they can carry on rehashing the same bike for
I agree with you mate, I'm trying to highlight some budget/older versions of different types of bikes atm as after people get on and do it they get the bug for sure. Hopefully things pick up all round. They could start by not make people take the same test 3 times....
Come to Africa. Motorcycling is reborn and growing here!
On a positive note, my Honda innova 125 cost 120 quid for a full service and I’m loving nipping around quiet roads on it, doubt that will change anytime soon!! 🙏
Sad realities - interestingly the number of new Motorcycle licences (passed on-road) have increased year-on-year by 10,000 over the last 10 years, to 40,306 in 2023-24 (ONS data), and drop out from theory test to passing on-road is much the same rate, current year 46% (2014 was 42%). It seems demand is still strong despite the challenges!
I'm 75 (very fit and very active) and my very first vehicle was a motorcycle. I've crossed the country twice, couriered for 6 years and ridden in all weather conditions. I've owned several over the years but family came along and I didn't ride for awhile. I have been bicycling though, while working it was 20 miles a day, several long trips on them, etc. After I retired I got that itch again and started looking for something not too crazy, 50/60 hp - 500 to 650cc range. I was shocked at the sticker price. So I stood back and gave it a rethink.
I'm now on a dual battery electric moped, can do a bit over 30 on the flats, 35+ downhill, and cover 60 miles with fairly hard riding before recharging. I've realized 2 things - my recollection of what my motorcycling skills were would not match my aging abilities, and this thing is a blast and scratching my itch very nicely.
When I look at the motorcycle industry's efforts in the e-motorcycle future I can't help but wonder why they're looking at long distance so much and not more local/commuter runs. Most ebikes are limited so can only stay up with traffic when it's 30 or under. Seems to me e-Motorcycles with a closer to 50mph speed would satisfy a lot of what people want - commute as well as fun weekend rides. I'd like to see a bigger push in that direction and batteries will only get better so range anxiety will get less.
@@RR-rk5gj only if they can find a way to change physics.... batteries are a chemical reaction ruled by the periodic table so I don't buy this 'batteries will get better' in any significant percentage....
Food for thought! Could be that as the car industry turns over to all electric that cars are no longer an affordable option for young people and they have to turn to motorcycles for transport? I think, talking to younger people about motorcycling, that the perception that motorbikes are 'dangerous' is also putting them off. And who can blame them when they see so many stories about their 'elders and betters' getting wiped out on their expensive litre bikes. I do think it's incumbent on us older riders to show people that it is safe, sociable and responsible, but still a fun way to travel and see the world. And we can only do that through mindset, training and actions. And perhaps if there were less older riders riding like numpties and paying for additional training then the costs of insurance and training might come down for younger riders? Spend less on the latest bling kit and more on building skills...? Just some additional thoughts
Electric cars are only expensive because politicians make them so, the Chinese brand BYD make a family hatchback for $12k but politicians apply 100% or more tariffs in order to prop up failing domestic industries. They will remove those tariffs before seeing society progress beyond being centred on cars.
You touched on what I think is the probable savior for motorcycles - e-bikes.
I remember when Honda introduced the bike with the hidden grease and engine
and "You meet the nicest people on a Honda". The motorcycle was no longer big,
heavy, expensive, and covered in grease and oil. It was... *Civil* . And not needing
a mechanics diploma to own. New people joined the bike world, and eventually
they moved up to bigger machines. As batteries improve in energy density and
come down in price, e-bikes - which don't need mastery of gear shifting and
down-shift clutch coordination, and without all the messy maintenance tasks -
will turn riders' attentions to the fun of Riding, instead of dreary Wrenching - and
we'll be off again to Meeting the Nicest People.
Now retired, a motorcyclist since I was 16 , worked 10 years in the motorcycle industry sadly I have to agree with your eloquent, fluent summary of motorcycling in it's death throes in this country. I Found you by chance, subscribing now to catch more well presented output.
Very sobering analysis. Stuff like Royal Enfield pulling the franchise from MotoGB leaving them high and dry with millions tied up in stock doesn't exactly inspire confidence even in Royal Enfield, a brand that I felt was one you could trust. I live in North Devon too and I was only thinking the other day about the ND dealerships and MOT stations disappearing . It is worrying and electric bikes will not help because they do not require mechanical servicing, not that I would ever ride one, the sound of a motorbike engine is its soul. After 10 years of KTM's it is pushing me back to Japanese brands like Yamaha because at lease a T7 doesn't need a valve service for 26,000 miles and everything else I can do myself.
I am seeing a slow reduction of resources, my Son and I both have full licences he is quite rare there are not many under 30s with a full licence now, also have my wife and younger son who ride on CBT. We are slowly doing more and more work on our bikes ourselves and getting the equipment and skills to do this, it works for us as is 'part of the hobby', although in my son's case he only has a motorcycle licence and does not drive a car so it is essential to keep at least one consistently running. Both of us are receptive to having an electric option but there isn't a compelling, cheap enough example yet.
The sweet spot looks like bikes that hark from the 1990's to early 2000s that are not too special. Mostly mechanical and some still have cheap parts available. I have an Aprillia Pegaso Trail from 2007 that I have kept going (fixed radiator, reconditioned waterpump etc.) but there are parts on that now that could go (dashboard, ECU etc.) and it would probably not be worth fixing. Is the same with cars to some extent, I rely on bangernomics and the sweet spot there is something like a MK1 Ford Focus. For my next bike it will either be new (and cheaper like the Voge or CFMoto) or more likely old and fixable.
Dealer prices too, £90-100 an hour for labour at main dealers.
What you've described also applies in part to some other sectors. Around 2020 there was a massive increase in the interest and demand for caravans, camper vans, motorhomes. Supply was very constrained (we had to wait 23 months for a factory order). Prices of new and 2nd hand vehicles increased dramatically. Whilst not a bust. there is now a serious correction in prices. 2024 stock is being heavily discounted to make way for 2025 stock and orders. The prices of 2nd hand stock is also reducing and an increasing number of dealers are going out of business. It can be a challenge to get an MOT, service or repair as the infrastructure is strinking. I think the laws of supply and demand will prevail so those left will be more in demand, make a better margin and therefore a more sustainable business model.
G'day Nathe
You make a lot of good points there sadly the industry is undoubtedly in decline.
I have been around motorcycles for over 50 years since the early 70s the only way I could sustain ownership of my bikes is by staying as far away from the dealership as possible only darkening their doorstep for the spares for the maintenance and repair fortunately my mechanical ability has allowed me to do so.
But that hasn't helped the industry much we are lucky here in Australia that most of the service centres that rego cars also do bikes and don't know much about them. I've noticed a lot of the dealerships getting quite expensive with spares and accessories to the point where most shops are like ghost towns all the bikes have extremely expensive components that require a healthy bank account to keep up with the maintenance schedule especially the niche European brands that are ready to race supposedly so really they seem to have priced themselves out of the game unless they can come up with more reliable & affordable options that don't have the tonnage of the Bismarck. I do try to support my local bike shop but everyone has to the dealerships have to play the game as well by giving reasonable prices
That’s a real honest and realistic view of the industry, I totally agree . There are so many factors causing this , bike theft , bad wet weather most of the year , price ! I personally think used stock is way to expensive! For most it’s a hobby or toy .
Two big bike dealers have recently closed in Sheffield ( a busy city )
Keep up the good work .
It’s partly the UK insurance system - where I live in Australia the third party injury insurance is part of the cost of yearly registration costs to the government. Which ranges from approx £50/yr for a 125 to £400 for a bike over 500cc. It’s then your choice if you wasn’t to insure other people’s property or your bike, and if you do it’s cheap unless you ride exotica….
Yes, the Oz insurance system is so much better for price and convenience. It's a great system.
Couldn’t agree more. Pidcocks bmw and triumph just gone into administration along with Completely motorbikes and Midlands Superbikes in the last couple of months.
Kids aren’t bothered about doing tests when they can buy an electric thing online and ride with their mates in balaclavas!
Scary really.
I think one of the problems is that bikes have become much more complex needing specialist kit to service them. Combined with relatively low volumes means it’s just not worth investing in them. I think the injection of well priced Chinese bikes may help entice people into the dealerships.
Large complicated machines costing well north of £15k in many cases are not the answer.
Final comment, motorhome and boat dealerships post Covid went did very well with stupid prices….and now they are suffering….I think the same can be said for the expensive premium brand motorcycle manufacturers. Our local Triumph dealer has said their showroom would be dead but for the new 400s.
Just because high end motorcycles are complex and cost stupid amounts of money, doesn't mean there aren't plenty of cheap, simple bikes also on the market.
@@jonm7272 hence my comment about well priced bikes.
My local Enfield/Kawasaki dealership just went bust after 60 years of trading. Low profit on new bikes and rent killed it off. Sad times indeed.
You make solid points mate. My personal addition to your already great narrative is that it is kind of like Nokia vs the cellphone industry where Nokia made excellent phones but the market just moved on, the answer to future of motorcycling industry does not lie in the industry itself but the other industries that may affect it.
Dear Nathan although not a motorcyclist and too old now I appreciate your thoughtful discussions. Was interested in getting a classic A2 car however that would only be realistic if I could do the essential maintenance and repair myself. So unfortunately unrealistic. Do I really need a car? Donated my Roomster to the Ukraine. Best wishes for all you do.
I was in my bmw dealership at the wknd, the cost and size of these bikes is insane, and the customers where all older gents
Food for thought! Don’t think electric bikes are the answer though. I feel lucky to have ridden fur so many years.
Good one Nathan, it might be a geographical/employment issue because I purchased a nearly new Kawasaki two weeks ago from Nirvana in Tamworth, not their proper name but might as well be they were so professional! Nothing was too much, fair trade in price but most importantly, the place was buzzing, staff and customers alike, ( on a weekday )!
My analogy is because Tamworth is an hour from everywhere in the Midlands where there is employment of every kind, the dealer was 101% into staff who sell/maintain and manage the business, the bottom floor was full of Triumph, upstairs Honda ,yet their sales this year so far, above target! They are only 7 hours away from me but guess what, I shall be using them again no-question!
Interesting vlog Nathan, and something that I agree. Here on guernsey, an island of some sixty-five thousand people the ebike is the one that’s flourished over the last year or so. And our local Yamaha dealer has been the one diversify into this market selling their e-bikes in the hundreds at knockdown prices. In days gone by it would have been scooters flying out the door for commuting not so now unless they are electric to. Sign of the times I’m afraid.
High Nathan
When are you next in Northamptonshire with your CF moto 450MT ?? I have ordered one but not seen one in the person as yet ?? If you were about I would like to come and have a look
Thanks
John
Some manufacturers going well like Triumph (sales up globally by a staggering 37%), Royal Enfield, quality improvements and some cracking new bikes, Honda, diverse range of good bikes, same with Yamaha. Others, like KTM have had quality issues and Harley Davidson have been caught (and maybe overtaken) by Indian in the Americana sector. UK sales have suffered this year from the poor weather in spring and early summer, critical for new bike purchases.
The biggest issue is the barrier to entry. One thousand pounds for a license is just ridiculous.
And doing the tests as a private individual is nearly impossible if you don't have a support structure that you rarely have if you ain't from a family of bikers
Hi Nathan , great thought provoking vlog as usual . I have a real issue on the licensing front and its archaic structure and believe this is a major obstacle in bringing new people into biking . My local test centre has a 4 month wait for a test date ! They have even taken bike examiners off bike testing and put them on car tests and not been able to replaced retiring examiners either because you can earn more as an instructor than you can as an examiner ? ! And when you start delving as to why all this is , they are still blaming the Covid backlog and say ' oh well , motorcycling is just a leisure pastime and recreational ' . No , lots of people use/want a bike to get to work and back. Also , after CBT , a full license training course is going to cost you aound £900. Another gripe I have is the huge increase in people on just a CBT and 'learners' being allowed to work commercially as delivery riders , all going along with their feet hanging down ! Who told them that was a good idea ?
So , apart from the motorcycle manufacturers and dealership problems , the whole training side needs a serious shake up but that's government led and regulated , so it won't happen I suspect . End of rant .
I'm nearly 60 years old and I've been watching this situation slowly evolving, all of my life. I have, for the last 45 years, serviced my own vehicles, myself. It costs me the price of the parts and a little extra for the Postman to bring me the parts, I need for the job. I have a couple of bikes that I imported into the Island where I live, as non dealer, private imports. There is no local dealer for either bike. The nearest one is a day away by sea travel! I buy all of my spares directly from Italy and fit them myself. Motorcycling is not like owning a car, it is or can be, a completely involving hobby. Sadly, in their modern form, motorcycle dealerships are not viable as businesses. A lot of "the motorcycling world" has done this to themselves. Look at motorcycling from the 1950s, when it was in its hay-day, and compare it to now. I'm not sure that anyone needs a 200 mph motorcycle and I'm pretty sure that no-one needs a motorcycle that costs £600.00 to £800.00 for an annual service either. A dealer local to me tells me that they sell electric bicycles in a ratio of at least 10 to 1 compared to new motorcycle sales. (The reason being that you don't need a licence for a bicycle.) I might suggest that the future will be that motorcycling will become the preserve of those people who don't have a 'phone permanently stuck to their hands and can operate a socket set. 😁😁.
I've been in the motorcycle trade since 2011 until May this year. There's a few reasons I left but job security was one. I'm in my early 30's and I don't see me being able to support my family in another 10 years due to most of the points in this video. Most people I sold bikes to were 50+ and as brutal as this will sound once that age group is unable to ride or dead I'm convinced the industry in the UK will be knackered!
I think motorcycle theft and insurance costs are pricing people out of bikes too but that's all of the motor trade.
Most interesting. And very well observed. I confess I am a 61-year old who hasn't ridden for decades, but when I did, I REALLY did. I was a courier and I often used holidays to ride across Europe.
Most of the riders I see now are aged 40-55 and have come back recently to motorcycles or are relative newcomers.
They seem to lean towards "brands" and "a look".
I notice also that as soon as a bike is bought, expensive aftermarket parrs are added.
In my younger years we used to tinker with suspension, exhausts and more... But it was much more than just booking it on to have the can changed.
All very rum.
Bikes are increasingly a "Sunday morning leisure option" rather than a way of living.
Anyway.... A very thoughtful piece.
Not having a pop, genuinely curious as to why you don't ride now?
I'm 60, ex courier too, 20+ yrs away from riding, got back into it 2 yrs ago - best thing I've (ever?) done!
@@dez_au_lait394 Fair question. We were expecting a child. As soon as I heard the news, I decided #1. No more ciggies. #2. No more motorcycling. I missed it - in many ways I still do. Ciggies, too. But I don't regret either decision.
I am still fascinated by bikes.
I cycle still (there is a deeper link there than some people admit) and do (or have done) other things that involve a degree of risk, but ciggies and bikes seemed the key ones. And I'd had a good run on the bikes.
It takes so long to get your bike worked on at the dealer, I have learned how to work on my bike. Now I have gone back to air cooled bikes with carbs because they are easier. My only EFI bike is my Moto Guzzi.
I teach motorcycle training in the US and while we always fill the classes it’s hard to find instructors. Our state even offers the basic, intermediate and advanced classes for free.
When off roading (thanks @nathanmillward for getting me excited about that at sweet lamb) there are no young people showing up with bikes that run $20-30k with gear and trailers, etc
Excellent vlog Nathan and very thought provoking.
A couple of thoughts from me would be:
One; that the testing system has been gamed by a lot of western governments to be yet another stealth tax. A simpler, better system would be passing a test on a small motorbike/moped then a series of timeframe and power restricted periods before you can take the next step up in power before getting all the way to a 1000cc or more.
No one wants to see an 18 year old wipe themselves out on an R1 but is the current testing system anything more than an income tax mechanism?
Say, 1 year at 125cc, 2 years @ 250/300cc, 2 years @ 660cc then 2 years at 750cc. Start at 17 and you can get a 1000cc when you're 24 and having had only one set of tests to pass BUT you will have gained so much real life experience at that point. Much more affordable for kids who are interested in getting into it.
Secondly; the motorcycle manufacturers have been neglecting what current riders actually want. Admittedly, all I really know much about is the adventure bike and enduro segment of the market but people have been crying out for a reliable sub-500cc adventure bike for ages and getting nowhere as the manufacturers chose to protect their cash cows at the top end of the market - looking at you here especially Honda.
The Chinese have spotted this gap in the market and in they sail. I wasn't around for when the Japanese manufacturers entered the bike market back in the '60-70's but it sure looks to me that the same thing may happen again
Hopefully the popularity of smaller cc bikes(300-500) will continue and then in 3 or 4 years time there’ll be some cheap second hand bikes on the market that young people can afford
I just got notice that Bahnstormer Maidenhead was closing. All operations now focus on Alton.
Much tightening of the market.
Yeah I read that this morning. Bought my gs1200 from them back in 2016. Nice guys. I gather it's partly due to pressure to invest in premises from BMW. Which I never understand because manufacturers just lose dealerships and points of sale, all for an uprated coffee machine. The industry's ruining its own.
Can't say I'm surprised at them closing. I change bike annually and visited them. Their part ex offer for my bike was £2700 less than the next nearest offer, and over £3k less than another BMW dealer.
I'd welcome the return of the Back Street small niche operator. I'm just about there myself.
I went into my garage the other day, and the smell of damp timber, used engine oil and rubber tool my right back to the old bike shops of my youth.
Well kitted out, with tyre machine, balancer, mill, lathe, welder, bike lifts, just about every tool you could need. Powder coating set up coming soon.
In Glasgow we used to have smelly bike shops in the ground floor of tennament buildings with residential housing directly above.
It is sad to hear Saltire closing though, one of the best set ups in Scotland with indoor cbt court, cafe, social set up and multi franchise. Overheads must have been huge.
Yes.
But 2 points.
1. As a 17yr old over 40yrs ago I had to repair and service myself. Still at school and my Saturday/midweek job serving petrol meant I had too. And the bikes allowed it.
2. I think you're talking about the UK. Emerging markets in the far East abd then South America might be where manufacturers focus their efforts, and we might be able to cling to this.
On a personal note now I'm completely with you. Get out and ride and use the industry.
My own dealer in a family run business and treat me like a person, not just another punter.
And all the cafes and restaurants we use when not away travelling need us to.
To lose all this would be tragic.
But like you, I'm paddling hard.
Ride safe 👍
Ps. If bikes weren't so expensive, maybe more people might consider it.
Eg, cf moto, Royal Enfield, etc.
Manufacturers, take note!
A license alone is like $4000, then gear for another $2000. That's before you even get the bike.
Just when the sun comes out here (York), a big dose of dark sky reality! But a very interesting analysis Nathan.
Ha. Sorry Peter. Sunny here in Devon as well!
A useful ponder.... My daughter, Olive, is 15 & we are looking forward to getting her a 50cc (with gears). At 17 she will get a 125 & hopefully pass her test. Olive is good at French & Spanish, I'm awful, so we are planning a jaunt in those countries, her on her 125, me on something smaller than the NC750X I ride now, possibly a Scram or that era Himalayan. My wife has a license, not had a bike in years, so the 125 will get ridden by her & Olive. Son says he also wants to ride. We are in Argyll, awesome roads, 2000mm rain yearly, but not much snow. Fingers crossed plans come to fruition.
Electric bikes: I love driving NHS electric pool cars. Acceleration is fantastic. I reckon ebikes could be a load of fun, even if they have no exhaust note. Range is always the biggest issue, but the Chinese are very good at advancing technology so maybe by 2035 it won't be such a concern.
Hi Nathan, I'm surprised no one has mentioned recent articles about motorcyclists riding in group's. This stems from people complaining about car cruise meet up's. I think it was Newcastle that are considering banning car gatherings and are also extending that too motorcycles! Their proposal's are suggesting to ban any more than two motorcycles riding together at anytime,the only expectation being if it is a charity ride raising money 🤔😡
Forgot to add that meeting up at a biker cafe would also be banned 😟, bloody ridiculous
Thriving industry in Japan - but then again here we do not have to worry about cops around every corner with DB meters wanting to take our bikes away. If I was back in EU or even AU I would not be riding. Too much hassle.
Dyrons in Leeds went a couple of weeks ago, I'm 65 years old now and it had been on the go since before my first moped at 16 years old. I frequent Squires biker café on a regular basis and there's plenty of young riders there but the main topic of their conversation is usually the cost of insurance, £2500 for some for just a 125cc.
I don't think it's just the motorcycle industry who are having a bad year, many industries are, but it's those with high overheads & tight margins who suffer the most, and the motorcycle industry as you rightly point out is one of those. Many things are cyclical & l think as & when the economy improves & people move into their 'mid life crisis' era, demand will increase & supply will be created to match. Let's hope it happens sooner rather than later
Wise words Nathan.. IMO this is happening across a lots of Mechanical industries. Look at the troubles at VW, KTM.. The closure of major bicycle and Mountain Bike companies. We are seeing a Paradigm shift in transportation since the boom of lock down and the uncertainty for ICE future, government legislation, cost of living are all playing into the decline. I work in the entertainment industry and it seems all discretionary spending has been vastly reduced. I don't think it will be the death of motorcycling but we will see a shift in what form that takes. Companies that cannot keep up or transition will unfortunately disappear.
I think that the companies you mention tried to profit on the back of covid and the massive increase in pushbike sales. Now its a dead duck and theres no way they can keep producing stuff thats not getting sold
My local multi franchise dealer has just given up its BMW franchise because of the demands by BMW on spending on their showroom (which was pretty new and very nice anyway) and the numbers of bikes they were expected to sell, this on top of the number of recalls on the bikes and the resulting dissatisfaction of customers. Instead of BMW fixing known recall faults before shipping, they ship the bike and then expect the dealer to rectify it after the bike is sold. This means that anyone with a BMW now faces at 1 1/2 hour trip to the nearest BMW dealer which will deter people from the brand.
During the pandemic, Oregon motorcycle shops sold ALOT of bikes. There are ALOT of riders selling those used bike on their own right now. It might take a while for the market to steady itself again.
Very well said Nathan, sadly all very true, as a rider of 40 plus years I fear for the future of motorcycling, the industry as a whole is very much diminishing, which is a shame for future generations who will not know the pleasure of the freedom on 2 wheels
I think you have summed it up quite nicely Nathan, it’s a concern we as motorcyclists should come together over it and the future so we have a voice! At 90+ to a gallon my 450 Enfield Himalayan is better on the road than my car doing 32 mpg. You would think government would rush to get more motorists out of cars and onto wheels? If I was PM I would be pushing motorcyclists and motorcycle ownership
I feel very fortunate to be retired in Thailand where yhe majority of the population ride bikes. Theyre cheap to buy here and insurance isnt expensive. Back in the UK i had a Car and a bike and it had come to the point where i had to choose between the Car and the bike because i couldnt afford to tax and insure both. As a biker of 55 years (I'm in my 70's) it was one of the best decisions ive ever made!
I think a large part of the problem is a mixture of pricing, costs and disposable income, or lack of. IMO the mid range bikes are too expensive, the "premium" ones are simply daft and the overall costs of entry to the sport, gear, insurance, training etc. push people past the limit. As for disposable income, when you think of ordinary(ish) families, with maybe 4 smartphones and their supply contracts, Sky TV, a lot of day to day spending strung out on credit cards and a car to run (and a car is pretty much a necessity today), there's not much left for toys.
I have come around to thinking cheaper and simpler bikes are better. I have three. The most I paid was about six grand GBP for a two-and-a-bit-year-old SCR950 with next to no miles. Just over three grand for my 390 Duke and 1,500 GBP for my 155. These were in Thailand. Just over ten grand for three bikes, one of them new, two immaculate almost new. Why pay more?
Good video, Nathan.
Convoluted test system. It needs to be CBT(which does not run out) then one test. Or CBT then timed release on power (not CC)
exactly - worked fine for us older folk
Unfortunately a Cbt is a one day event, you can’t physically teach someone enough in that time to make the system you suggest work in a safe practical way.
@@davidfluffy34 my cbt was1hour
I've been on the road since92 and passed my main license about 1 month after my cbt
So no, it doesn't need to be a full day
Then there is the other license restrictions, a1 and a2 and then main but you have to serve time ? Wtf
@@ogasi1798 that was 1992 , a few things have changed since then , remember it only started in 1990 as prototype scheme , it was revised several times within the first few years due to not being fit for purpose, hence the current framework, to think you can put some one out on the road to learn by their mistakes is a little naive and dangerous, the minimum standards required are for a Cbt course to last 5-6 hrs but that is teaching the very very basics
@@ogasi1798 Bikes have gotten a lot faster since '92 and the roads a lot busier.
Nathan very interesting vlog and on point certainly food for thought here in Australia Motorcycling seems to be on the up but i agree it’s centred around bigger dealerships the other issue is around the technology that bikes use now that make you take them back to the dealer who has the electronic diagnostic equipment. I have a lot of time for Royal Enfields motorcycles because of their basic simplicity 😊
You say about having a staged licence approach so that new riders don’t go out and get a powerful bike at the first stage, however car drivers can get anything they want and they tend to have less special awareness than bike riders.
Being old school I did not have to do a CBT to ride on the road and my test was a single test where the examiner was on foot and sent me around the streets and he would run down the alleys to watch me go by. So where I only had 1 test you now have 3. I think it would be better if they mixed up the two, do a CBT then, depending on your age you ride a 50cc or 125cc for a year, allow that to then step up to say the A2 requirement automatically after a year and then take a test before being able to get a bigger capacity (HP) bike. That would be a fairer system