Fascinating VERY Long High-Gain Cheap Wire Antennas
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- Опубліковано 29 чер 2022
- Interesting look at High-Gain and Extremely Long Wire Antennas. Have you tried one? Do you have the space? Give it a go. I did it here: • End Fed Antenna Magic:... - Of course Beverage Antennas have similar characteristics (but work totally differently) which is why there are fab at RX.
How to use this computer modelling program: • The Amazing Delta Loop...
73 Callum.
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The disused telephone line i used was just over 3 miles (5Kms) long.
Yes i fed it with a balun of some sorts (that was nearly 30yrs ago now !!!)
It just happened to be very straight and pointed towards the USA.
The biggest problem was:
1. Near field lightning strikes
2. Build up of wind static
3. Possums getting fried on the odd occasion
cheers
Ah! Hello Roly, I thought you would have popped up!
@@DXCommanderHQ Family stuff precluded me from joining unfortunately.... gotta talk soon.
I've got 0.28 miles or about 450 m of telephone line on poles. Not at my QTH but at a near-ish rural property where my dad used to live.
I've got a question about that setup as an antenna... It's actually 2 wires of course, running horizontally with about 1 foot of vertical space between them. I'm tempted to try them in parallel as "one wire", thinking that would be better than having one unconnected wire running parallel above or below the "live" one.
Any thoughts?
@@Randrew My setup was exactly the same. I tied the two lines together at the feed point.. cheers, Roly
I hear possum stew is pretty greasy.
When I was Freshman in University my dorm room had been previously occupied by a HAM who had strung a dipole wire over 100 feet Long from the stem to cross arm of the T shaped building. The feed came in my 7th floor window so I hooked up my FM radio and got very good reception. My other favorite was hooking up my crystal receiver to the fence around the VA facility
Will definitely be following along! 73
Pure Excellence. Thank for the great modeling. It's really educational. 👍
Good stuff as usual Callum huge antennas rock W9US
Excellent video Cal. That 16dB gain was impressive !! I think this also shows why a modest antenna, vertical or horizontal, in very modest garden can give reasonable results, those being what probably most of us work with. Also reminds me that using an amp to try and get a signal out is less useful in that it does nothing for reception if overall gain of antenna is low. Mark, 2E0MSR.
You are right!
Am very impressed with your antenna modeling program, also, impressed with the 3D views you gave.
Very interesting.
Thanks
Bruce-WB5NOQ
Many thanks!
The best "long-wire" I ever deployed was from very fine wire that was wound in the same manner as a "ball of string" with the lead wire taken out from the inside - instead of the outside - so it internally un-wound itself. The coil of long wire came from a 1960's TV set that I broke the tuning insides out of, and noticed the inside wire did not tangle. So I taped it to an Arrow, and shot it up over the Oak trees in my backyard (I never saw the arrow again) and then connected my end of it to my SW radio and it WORKED AWESOMELY.
I connected my HeathKit Osclliscope to the end and measured 73+ volts of "noise" on it. The Oak trees were on acres and well away from mains power lines. I could listen to European SW in Atlanta with ease. Alas we moved from that house a few years later.
When I make my next long-wire antenna it will be via the same method of unwinding a fine wire from inside of a coil attached to a bigger Arrow shot up into the sky over a forest. #BestAntennaEver !
The antenna that I launched in faith above was in the mid 1970's, well before I even knew about Wire Guided anythings, but it makes sense now in this century.
Wow. Great memories. Super tale too!!
Interesting stuff. It reminded me of UA-camr Stan Gabalisco and his video "Long Wire Antennas for DXing" and his story of kite flying a long wire many decades ago. Great story.
Now I didn't know that!
Nice work good production values and humor too
Much appreciated!
When I was first licenced back in the 60's the family had a farm so my first antenna was a 1,000ft end fed at 50ft. Transmitters were all valve so the PA pi-tank would match anything. Goodness knows what the SWR was but my first ever contact on the day I received my licence was to the USA on 160m CW. G3WNR
Wow. That's AMAZING!
Always enjoy seeing you work with MMANA. Interesting and educational. Thanks. Jack K5FIT
I use a 20 meter horizontal wire (about 12 foot off the ground) with a 49:1 un un and with just 10 watts get very decent results even with a dog leg configuration. Conditions have to be with me for real dx but as a cheap antenna it is great.
I'd love to experiment with a very long wire antenna. Unlike dipoles or loops they rely on the traveling wave principle to work. Problem here in Florida is, it would be a lightning magnet.
Oh yes, never thought about that.. Soon. Just busy right now..
Im running a EFHW 8010 in a inverted L forum, seems to do pretty well....always looking for ways to improve my stations performance, nice video, ..
Sounds great!
Thank you Callum 👍
Any time
In the past i did a few experiments with random farmers fences and connecting a 9:1 balun too it. It did not work very well. At least not with my 3 watt signal.
Your in the UK figuring the conversation in your math 😂
I have a long wire here, like 130 some feet, and just put up a EFHW 4010, just to try it out, and it has become a work horse for me last few days, tonight I worked a guy up in Alaska on 20m and a 100 watts, ( a POTA station ) I have did this before, but not on a short wire antenna.......always wanted to try a loop but never have, yet, enjoy your videos Calvin, 73
Yeah, loops are fun too!
Such a great video you're so damn awesome we love you man thank you for sharing 🏆🏆🏆🏆🏆
Excellent :)
love your videos
Thank you *SO* much!!
there used to be a G3 in portishead area who's end fed snaked its way through the housing estate ( he had a foot path at the bottom of the garden and he fixed to the fence and went out each night adding a bit on) he used to be a huge signal on 160m !
Brilliant!
Voice Of America site C in USA North Carolina, 9 to 1 Balun, very high gain. Almost 200 feet high on the Antennas that still stand.
I’m a DX’er and I tune my 80m loop to resonate on 14.250 (or 3.5625 on 80) to take advantage of the gain realized by the wavelength multiple.
Nice!
I started with CB 34 years ago. Joined the army as a RO briefly rank gnr, My first ever contact as a ham was UK to Australia as an MW3 using a Cubical Quad on 20m I am now an MW0 and only use long wire antennas.
Cubical Quad is lovely..
I used to use a kilometer long wooden fence with a long wire on top in combination with an antenna tuner and I thought 50 to 80 Watt amp. It worked very well that afternoon in receive. SWR I really don't remember anymore but was not so great.
I'll bet!
My first experience with a longwire was at Field Day when I was Jonny Novice at 16 years. This Hippie professor shows up with a brand new FT-101 which was like a rocket ship radio comnpared to the tired Drake TR-3 we were pounding CW on. He said take this roll of wire and walk down the hill and throw it up in that tree down there. So about 500 feet later, we returned to his camper at the top of the hill. All went well with the 101 on a roller tuner and he was making contacts galore on 15M. But when a storm came close !!! This BZZZZZZZZZZZ-SNAP kept repeating with a blue spark in the tuner. I ran like hell.
Wow!
Makes me wish I still lived next door to the high school football field that I used to. I could've hung a wire on top of the 12-foot-high fence around the full length of the property, like 4 to 5 acres, insulated from the fence itself.
Wow
@@DXCommanderHQ Yes, 4 to 5 acres "area". So how long do you think the perimeter would be thus the full length of an EF wire? Well here - 1,866.8 feet of fencing! 🤣
Following with interest….thanks
Thanks!
Hi Callum.
Thanks for your videos quite informative much of your results regarding very long wire antennas confirm my findings
with very long wire antennas, low take off angle with gain on the lobes on higher bands.
I have a sloping 360 meter loop next to the sea over very wet ground fed with open wire feeder
into a home made collins type tuner, antenna hight furtherst away from sea is aprox 80 feet above sloping ground down to about 60 feet above ground next to the sea
the other night had a qso with a station in Kuwate on 40 wats on 20 meters for a good 30 minuets very little
qsb and steady 59+ sig reports Also with very very long loop antennas I have noticed their is considerably less qsb than say a resonant dipole/doublet
I can send you the dimentions and photos if you like I think you may find it intresting
I agree. I ran a loop at around half that size. Some of the lobes are insane and as strong as a BIG yagi.
Very long Dipoles and End Fed Antennas seem to have this amazing characteristic. I have not tried a Beverage Antenna, possibly the super-standard in terms of RX abilitiy.
In the past all my beverages contained alcohol, so I never got very far with antennas back then.
That just sounds the best, cuz the wire picks up so much static and noise. To be resistance terminated to ground on one end, yet still tx-able, so you can speak to where you hear. Like a half rhombic. Things get real wild on different bands tho. It is time to put DX Commanders in a dipole configuration, and rotate them.
@@ERICtheLATE At what speed should you rotate the DX Commanders? What kind of RPM are we talking... 10 RPM? 10,000 RPM? Gimme an order of magnitude, please.
@@Randrew Really slow. It would be interesting to see if there is still gain using 40 meter wires on 10 meter or 20, if there are some resonant ones right there. Oh and your joke. 😁
Brilliant 🤩
Cool beans.
I am an antenna junkie too, love experimenting with outside the box antennas.
73 de kc2wvb
Welcome!
I had a 3 element Mosley tri-band Yagi (TA-33JR) at 70 feet and an end fed wire wire in about 300 feet overall in length. The wire ran NE (Europe) and SW ( Texas ). I noticed that on 10 meters signal strengths into Europe and Texas (off the ends of the long wire) were pretty much the same on either antenna. However the Yagi was much better is all other directions. The wire was straight for approximately 8 wavelengths long on 10 meters. If you can run a long straight wire (8 waves long is pretty good) in the right direction you can get good gain in a few pinpoint directions. In my case it looked like 8 waves long was equal to 3 elements on 10.
Hey! That is a GREAT tip because we will be installing our 160m long end-fed probably this week.. Diamond. I wonder what height your end fed was..
@@DXCommanderHQ It started at the ground floor window (L Network tuner just inside the window) sloped up to about 65 feet then dog leg right and went straight for about 8 wavelengths to a tall pine tree about 45 ft at that end. So it sloped from 65 down to 45 feet. Also was enough sag so wire did not break. So not sure how high the mid point was. Best direction was probably toward Texas but Europe was also equivalent to the 3 elements on 10.
Would love to see you test a Romic antenna
Need 30 foot towers. Sorry.
You can get a few more decibels in one direction by tilting a vertical antenna in that direction. The 3/4 wave antenna should be tilted 35 degrees from vertical. Also, you may find that such an antenna works better 5% above the frequency for which it was cut.
Well, I don't fully agree really because a) I've done some unscientific tests and couldn't see any difference and b) maybe look at this timestamp here: ua-cam.com/video/JZFuOzKY8gg/v-deo.html
@@DXCommanderHQ Okay I will have to do some experiments with this and see what happens, because theoretically a tilt should alter the radiation pattern.
Stack 2 or 3 of those on top of each other!
Love when I hear hams on low band saying their running a long wire but neglect to admit that it’s long wire for 40m but seriously compromised on 160m 😉 long wire is 1.5 x avg wavelength ☺️
Good point!
Formula: -3/4~HOA factor.
Hi,thanks for the videos. Quick question. I have made a long wire antenna out of fine copper wire. I figured low current so thickness wouldn't matter. Am I wrong and a thicker wire would make a much better antenna? Thanks in advance.
For what we do, you would probably never notice.
Very cool. If I want to try a super long wire for RX, do I need to worry about tuning it's length in terms of resistance and swr?
Not at all Matt. See this video: ua-cam.com/video/bkXLJ-bslns/v-deo.html - I used a 64:1 transformer. Frankly almost anything would have worked.
How about doing a really big sky loop.. maybe 2 or 3 wavelengths on 160?
Video out soon...!
wondering what an 80m resonant ed fed would do on VHF SSB ?
It'll always work.. The problem is "how well"
Wires with a high gaining? That must be super special kickass scooby doo Wire I have never heard of before. Does that Magic Wire makes the S-Meter swing like a Clockwork?
Haha.. Yes. Same principle as a Berverage Antenna
I have played with the software for hours, but have never seen this pattern before. 14:25 Looks wilder than a 6 meter 50 meters above ground. lol
Yes weird!!
Sorry im kinda very new to this, picked up an sdr dongle.
But i was curious with the matching of antennae sizes....has anyone used a motorized cable anchor that could run up and down a cable to effectively change the antennae length...or am i missing something entirely? (Im generally missing a lot entirely but i am curious if that would work rather than setting up different antennae😄)
Im mid city in Puerto rico, live on a hill in a house with an 80ft staircase tower 2miles off the coast (north facing..lots of ocean out there)..im thinking i should be able to get somesort of interesting signals around here. Very interested in tapping noaa satellite data and generally having a nose around see whats going on in the air.
I picked up a triple set of amplifiers (2 tiny 4" nubs and a 4-5ft telescopic, not sure how good those would be, not getting much so far but as i said its my first dive into this since a childhood cb phase i went through.
Also dont fancy being struck by lightning which we get a lot of, how do you protect the antennae from a strike. Is it only grounding or is there a gizmo?
OK.. so if this is for reception ONLY, then don't worry about it. Receive on a wire will work just fine anyway - actually DE-TUNING it can have the effect of lowering your noise-floor and being able to hear better anyway.. But welcome anyway!
I always wanted to make an antenna something like the HAARP program up in Alaska stack pulled on top of each other just hope the SWR meter will work good
Yes, for many of us, the legends of these antennas are lost to time.
Harrp is for moving the atmosplane around to create movement, along with the creation of water from the turbofan engine in the planes that fly overhead everyday making clouds, this is how they keep the system going, in short
New subscriber. Love the channel. What modeling software are you using? If that was answered before my apologies. ‘73.
No worries and thanks for coming along.. Yes it's MMANA-GAL.. I did a video about it about 3-weeks ago. Actually it's a series..
@@DXCommanderHQ ok great, thanks I’ll check out the series. Thanks for the reply. - W2LMR
I lived next to a beautiful young lady nurse that brought up knotted rope once. Referee!
HAHA!
wonder what gain you could get on a farm electric fence wire 🤔 disconnected from the power supply (bzzzzz bzzzzz) of course.
I have been wanting to do just that. Have a few non-connected electric runs available to me on some family property.
@@kenluning909 you could string a couple thousand feet of shielded wire along a tree line. all those wavelength multiples increases the gain
That wifi antenna is a collinear but the problem is the alc kicks in if ya use a high gain antenna which sux
Good point!
@@DXCommanderHQ personal experience before i got my amateur radio licence unfortunately
Hello, is it true that the thickness of the wire doesn't matter? Single or Litz wire copper, aluminum or stainless steel? Any significance? Thanks
For transmit antennas, yes it does matter. Just don't use PVC coated iron/steel (stainless is OK). Silver the best, Copper comes in 2nd place! Gold is third :) It's all about conductivity.
@@DXCommanderHQ thanks you, Master 🙂
Please: what is the name of the antenna modeling program that you are using? 73 KN6UXD
MMANA-GAL. I made a video about it about erm.. 3 weeks ago.
ZL1BQD ... years ago worked ZL8BQD Kermadec Isl... i think on 15 meters...
73
Jacek SP5DRH
Haha! Yes, that was Roly..!
What would happen if you were to have the space to run say 8 end fed antennas all day 4 wave lengths long set out equally spaced. What would happen. My brain can't work this one out! 73 de ZL1JYM. James
They would all work together and you would PROBABLY have a sllightly better receive however, the three that were not doing the job of receiving very well, would just contribute noise. Better to have a switch / relay system to select the right one..
HI CAL MARK HERE IM HAVING A PROB SWR ING MY EFHW WITH 49.1 UNUN FROM LG AND 65FOOYAND 2INCH PLUS 3INCH FOLD BACK AND 6INCH AT FEED POINT FOR STRENGTH IN A SLOPER DISC FEED POINT UP AT MY BED WINDOW 30 FEET HIGH SWR 3 DO I NEED A COUNTER POISE MY COAX INTO SHACK 15 FOOT WITH AIR CHOKE 10 4INCH TURNS 2 FEET FROM RADIO CAN YOU HELP LOL PLEASE JUST REALISED IN CAPS LOL SORRY
Erm.. I would talk to your supplier and see what they suggest?
@@DXCommanderHQ thankyou
It's a pity the software doesn't work down to the new ham band at 630m!
No.. It does work. Just type in where it says Freq 0.475 (MHz) and it will run calculations perfectly.
Alternatively.. Double the numbers and half the lengths. Same.
I need a octagon pattern
Depends on beamwidth..
Beverage, sort of?
Yes.. Although Mr Beverage terminated the far end with a resistor.
I own a plot of land that is 600 feet by 1,800 feet (22 acres here in the USA). My plan is to make a random long wire 100' long and try it. I will then add 100' to it every couple of weeks to see the difference in performance. In time, I want this antenna to be 1,800 feet long at an average height of about 30'. I'll be tuning it with an automatic antenna tuner at the feedpoint with about 30 feet of coax to the Icom 746PRO in my shack. Should I make a video for you? -W8OKN
Hey Sean.. Sounds good.. I would fancy putting this in the middle with a 4-way or maybe 6-way switch from say Array Solutions to change directions, particularly on higher bands. Could be VERY good...
@@DXCommanderHQ After I sent this note here, I thought about the possibility of being able to change the length remotely. Keep the total length wire setup, but change the length on the fly. 100', 200' 500' etc.
In the Shortwave Listener world.... You will hear about this aerial called a Beverage. Took me a bit in the early days.... Why are these "old timers" heading off to the bush with batteries and decent recieving equipement.? Then saying we are all set with "beverages" ready to listen for some faint stations and log them for QSL reports. Silly me thought ok..... what happens when their coffee runs out?
The me of today realises it's the name of the inventer of their longwire aerials they use..... It's a long wire run out at about 2m or so off the ground for a wavelength or more, then terminated on the far end with a 400 to 800 ohm resistor. This helps with the directional charactoeristics. Also a bit wierd (completely opposite to a dipole) is max sensitivity is end on! So run the wire out in the direction you want.... I believe the theory is the hieght above the ground helps form the impedance and becomes close to a folded dipole (don't quote me). Back at the reciever end you use an appropriate balun to get back to 50 ohms. What ratio that is depends on the termination resistor on the far end.
This is no good for TX btw...... It's a RX only deal.
Yes, Beverage got a patent for that back in the 20s.
You're also describing, sir, what the various military field manuals identify as a vertical half-rhombic. These fit the same pattern of "traveling wave" antenna. Like the traditional rhombic, it is high-gain, high-directivity (more-so the longer it gets). In plain fashion, it is bidirectional, but they are typically terminated at the far end, toward your desired communication link with a ~600ohm resistor. This provides a nice match through a 12:1 coupler of your choosing. At reasonable lengths, the total loss due to the resistor is on the order of 3dB or less, but considering the gain and directivity, it is a fair tradeoff. Structurally the difference from a Beverage is the midpoint of the wire is elevated to achieve the rhombic shape, and to further minimize ground loss for transmissions, a ground wire can be run from one end to the other.
@@peteranoia4570 thanks heaps for that. I am aware of the science "these days". I really wanted to share the part where pimple faced me.... was wondering what they meant by "beverage". To me a teenager it meant a drink of some kind. Cheers (pun intended)
73's
now try modeling a 7+ mile long antenna on 10 meters....it was done before
Impedance of free space is 376.6 ohms. Impedance of an infinitely long wire would be a little different due to the variation of velocity coefficient. Hence "radiation", because transit would be easier outside the wire. But being infinite in length, there are no end points for reflection and by definition will not be resonant. A rhombic antenna is the next best thing to exist on planet earth. Notice the termination resistor to prevent it from being resonant. The big question is the percentage radiated per unit length. Would it be a constant rate over a linear distance or a wavelength distance? All energy would be radiated minus wire ohmic resistance. Radiated energy along its length would have to be a fraction of a fraction and therefore at a logarithmic remainder rate of decline. Nothing left at infinity.
VA7WN
Interesting!
@@DXCommanderHQ Does anyone know the capacitance of free space? Is there a unit of inductance per unit length into free space? What about step rise time and decay into an infinite wire? ... or ... is this how the 376.6 ohm impedance was derived in the first place. We are so accustomed to finite length and this kind of examination could lead to a better understanding on propagation and antenna design. VA7WN
Long wire and High-Gain are not generally used in the same sentence.
Not normally, but Mr Beverage got a Patent for his!
@@DXCommanderHQHigh directivity, but low gain I think are Beverages... negative gain mostly
If you were handcuffed behind your back and tied stiffly to your chair, could you still talk?😉
I will try it!
Lots of global warming with those cloud warmers.