I attended an open house this weekend past. I queried the line reps about this very subject. They honestly couldn’t tell me what “two lines heavier” meant. If they could have said this, It probably could have saved a lot of time and headache for themselves and the consumer: “What it really means is two line diameters thicker to make the casting experience more enjoyable.” Therefore a 8 weight diameter line to make a 6 weight streamer line head. Having said that, I suppose that one, while casting, can vary the length of line out side the rod tip to make the rod flex to accommodate the fly and fishing situation.
This explains things perfectly. When I told a couple people I was cutting a couple feet off the front end of my old long belly bass bug lines so they cast better, people thought I was crazy. Line manufacturers are finally catching on to what a head length should actually be. The Rio Outbound Short is fantastic line. I love it. It casts like a rocket. I was tossing some pretty heavy musky flies on a 9 weight rod last year using the Outbound Short line. I was very impressed with it's performance. I don't care what people call them as long as they work. I think you need to try a couple different lines to see what works best with each rod you own. I do a lot of testing of lines with different rods.
Good stuff. I used to think I could ignore packaging and experiment with cutout lines until I found what worked, and then buy a more expensive clone. Ah well. Thank you Gunnar.
Been a fan of the Outbound shorts and Switchchucker lines for years. Some of the Airflo power tapers and SA Titan lines work great for me also. When I buy a line I always look at the head wt. and length over the line wt rating. After I use a rod for a while kind a get to know what head wt is best and most of the time it’s a heavier line wt that what the rod is. Thanks for bringing this to light Gunnar for people to understand it easier!!
100%. I hate when people ask me what grain weight line they should use with my musky fly rods. Like do you know how many questions I am going to need ask to understand what grain weight line to recommend. Then throw in the weight of the modern musky fly. I tell them to throw what they have or barrows a buddy's line and go from there. Good explanation. You can only load a rod with the line that is beyond the tip. So many people don't even get the whole head out before launching. I find that if I change flies, it effects the "sweet spot" for my casting stroke. By sweet spot I mean.the amount of head out past the tip on the final cast. It is really just physics folks. Physics
Good explanation. Thank you. I grew up with the AFTM standards, but recently I was looking at a line from the UK, and was confused by their listing of the weight of the line in grains which was far larger than the 4 wt standard I was thinking of. I wrote to them, and they explained that they use head weight, not the AFTM standards. They explained their taper and head length and that, yes, their line cast nicely on a 4 wt. It seems some companies are moving to head weight rather than the AFTM system. If a transition is actually in progress, fly line companies would serve customers best by explaining what they are doing in clear terms. The "two lines heavy" approach just muddies the issue even further.
I have been sorely vilified for mentioning I almost always upline by as much as 2wts. The reason is that I do not toss small flies (typically), it's bass bug and large streamers. I get line weights to rod balance; however, "typically" rods are faster and can handle a heavier line, especially in short cast situations in small creeks like I do. That said, if we are to Guage the line weight only to the rod and not add in the weight of the fly... a large fly will change the characteristics of any designated line weight; hence, larger fly, we need a heavier line to carry it. In fly fishing, we all know the line is what is doing all the casting as it carries the fly. If the line is not heavy enough for the fly, the "fly" will feel more like casting a lure or wet sock.
But the first 30 feet are indeed more heavy on a streamer line. What people not understand is to use streamer specific rods that loads deep and can handle those lines way easier.
Interesting and thought provoking as usual! But the rating/grain weight for a rod is pretty subjective too... For example, the Chippy 4 piece 10wt I won in your drawing -- for me -- loads/casts way better with a 12wt (500grain) Cortland Pike/Musky line that it does with the Rio Predator Elite 10 wt...
I don’t get it , people spend $100 + for a plastic line and still they don’t know what they have in their hands. These is the type of people that fly line companies are capitalizing from🤔
The aftma system has a couple of major flaws: one is that it is made from people who can cast for people who can't cast. That is the underlying problem. A top down view to rate lines. The (wrong) dogma of the tight loop favoured faster and faster rods the last decade. And the industry reacts. Dear flyfisher, please understand this industry doesn't do things to make u happy and a better caster. They don't want that... Else u dont buy new gear for millions of dollars every year. Such a bullshit industry with no real understanding for the sport nor the game of casting.
I attended an open house this weekend past. I queried the line reps about this very subject. They honestly couldn’t tell me what “two lines heavier” meant. If they could have said this, It probably could have saved a lot of time and headache for themselves and the consumer: “What it really means is two line diameters thicker to make the casting experience more enjoyable.” Therefore a 8 weight diameter line to make a 6 weight streamer line head. Having said that, I suppose that one, while casting, can vary the length of line out side the rod tip to make the rod flex to accommodate the fly and fishing situation.
This explains things perfectly. When I told a couple people I was cutting a couple feet off the front end of my old long belly bass bug lines so they cast better, people thought I was crazy. Line manufacturers are finally catching on to what a head length should actually be. The Rio Outbound Short is fantastic line. I love it. It casts like a rocket. I was tossing some pretty heavy musky flies on a 9 weight rod last year using the Outbound Short line. I was very impressed with it's performance. I don't care what people call them as long as they work. I think you need to try a couple different lines to see what works best with each rod you own. I do a lot of testing of lines with different rods.
Good stuff. I used to think I could ignore packaging and experiment with cutout lines until I found what worked, and then buy a more expensive clone. Ah well. Thank you Gunnar.
I have been struggling with modern line nomenclature and this cleared it up nicely. Thanks.
Been a fan of the Outbound shorts and Switchchucker lines for years. Some of the Airflo power tapers and SA Titan lines work great for me also. When I buy a line I always look at the head wt. and length over the line wt rating. After I use a rod for a while kind a get to know what head wt is best and most of the time it’s a heavier line wt that what the rod is. Thanks for bringing this to light Gunnar for people to understand it easier!!
We need some more tying videos!
100%. I hate when people ask me what grain weight line they should use with my musky fly rods. Like do you know how many questions I am going to need ask to understand what grain weight line to recommend. Then throw in the weight of the modern musky fly. I tell them to throw what they have or barrows a buddy's line and go from there. Good explanation. You can only load a rod with the line that is beyond the tip. So many people don't even get the whole head out before launching. I find that if I change flies, it effects the "sweet spot" for my casting stroke. By sweet spot I mean.the amount of head out past the tip on the final cast. It is really just physics folks. Physics
Great video, just got a 7wt combo and looking at upgrading the line for streamers, feel a lot more confident buying now!
Thank you so much for the fantastic info. Clear and precise. Cheers!
Thanks for the awesome clarification buddy
Good explanation. Thank you. I grew up with the AFTM standards, but recently I was looking at a line from the UK, and was confused by their listing of the weight of the line in grains which was far larger than the 4 wt standard I was thinking of. I wrote to them, and they explained that they use head weight, not the AFTM standards. They explained their taper and head length and that, yes, their line cast nicely on a 4 wt. It seems some companies are moving to head weight rather than the AFTM system. If a transition is actually in progress, fly line companies would serve customers best by explaining what they are doing in clear terms. The "two lines heavy" approach just muddies the issue even further.
Rio lines weighting 235 grains for the total head are actually 3 line sizes heavier than a 6 weight, are a 9 weight
PREACH brother
Great info
Well now it makes sense. But my head hurts thinking about it 😊
Thanks
I have been sorely vilified for mentioning I almost always upline by as much as 2wts. The reason is that I do not toss small flies (typically), it's bass bug and large streamers. I get line weights to rod balance; however, "typically" rods are faster and can handle a heavier line, especially in short cast situations in small creeks like I do. That said, if we are to Guage the line weight only to the rod and not add in the weight of the fly... a large fly will change the characteristics of any designated line weight; hence, larger fly, we need a heavier line to carry it. In fly fishing, we all know the line is what is doing all the casting as it carries the fly. If the line is not heavy enough for the fly, the "fly" will feel more like casting a lure or wet sock.
But the first 30 feet are indeed more heavy on a streamer line. What people not understand is to use streamer specific rods that loads deep and can handle those lines way easier.
Hallelujah! Hallelujah! Hallelujah!
Interesting and thought provoking as usual! But the rating/grain weight for a rod is pretty subjective too... For example, the Chippy 4 piece 10wt I won in your drawing -- for me -- loads/casts way better with a 12wt (500grain) Cortland Pike/Musky line that it does with the Rio Predator Elite 10 wt...
So Gunnar….. what about when certain fly lines are marketed as (6/7wt), (7/8wt), (8/9wt) etc
Is there a specific "Spey Tapered" intermediate line you prefer over the rest for throwing streamers?
In another video, he mentioned using the Rio predator that has a spey taper and made to cast bigger flies.
Really appreciate this. Thanks a lot! 👍👍👌
Gunnar, your my kind of nerd.
I don’t get it , people spend $100 + for a plastic line and still they don’t know what they have in their hands. These is the type of people that fly line companies are capitalizing from🤔
The aftma system has a couple of major flaws: one is that it is made from people who can cast for people who can't cast. That is the underlying problem. A top down view to rate lines.
The (wrong) dogma of the tight loop favoured faster and faster rods the last decade. And the industry reacts.
Dear flyfisher, please understand this industry doesn't do things to make u happy and a better caster. They don't want that... Else u dont buy new gear for millions of dollars every year. Such a bullshit industry with no real understanding for the sport nor the game of casting.