The Gracie's are some of the sorest losers I've ever seen. It always seems like their whole ringside team has to storm the damn mat when one of them loses.
What do you expect Brazil jj came for Japanese judo and that's where the Gracie's failed to understand. Don't get me wrong BJJ is a good art but Judo is in another level.
@@biglj822009 True man Travis Stevens ( judo 6th dan black belt, bjj black belt) said once: ''The mentality in judo compare to bjj is totally different becouse of the time sets it's a mentality of killed or be killed . In bjj you have al the time to figure it out in kodokan judo that is not possible.
im a judo guy myself . Judo is the WHOLE. BJJ is focused on techniques (taken from judo and sometimes made it more simple ) that small and low weight people can use. its "light judo" simple techniques that are with high impact
@makikomi it's their strategy and the funny part about this whole thing is that Yoshida (a pure Judo player with excellent ne-waza and tachi-waza) won the match in Royce's own game (ground work) ... that's the funny part.
Yoshida is a Judo legend who has pure Judo (50% excellent throws and 50% excellent ground work). Many modern U.S. judo players have horrible ground work, but it's beginning to change ...
@del1000005 I agree but BJJ is missing 2 key points that are still vital in Judo everyday. 1) Judo allows all submissions but you have 2-3 seconds to lock it in or they stand you up. 2) Judo emphasizes on throws, which are vital to self-defense and can shock or impair an opponent thus giving you time to escape or continue into ground game. In real life time you don't get minutes to submit your opponent, you get seconds and Judo practices that exact thing in competitions.
Guys, i respect all kind of martial art. I love this sport. But Gracie's (particularly) I HATE this people because of their CHARACTERS either they won or lose a fight. It's attitude man, its attitude, its not the way you fight or your style. Its the character that counts. You see I love your style but man i hate your attitudes. Got me?
For all the whiners: Yoshida didn't tell the ref he was out, he said "He's dead out, isn't he?" The ref hurried and said, "Royce!", got no immediate answer, then screamed to call it. If there was any error or issue, it was the Ref more than anyone else. Yoshida was whooping Gracie's ass at that point. I felt sorry for Royce that he challenged a Judoka to a strict BJJ rules only match and still lost. Royce threw a fit but I always assumed it was POSSIBLE he was choked out and didn't remember it (Happened to me once, guy was applying a collar choke, I was struggling to get out of it, I blinked and he was getting off me and I was like, "What the hell?!" and I was told, "You were OUT, dude!" I said, "No I wasnt!" then I got told, "DUDE! We were saying your name like, 3 or 4 times. LOUDLY. Right next to you, you were choked out". So it's POSSIBLE Royce doesn't remember being choked out). Royce demanded a rematch under different MMA rules (again more to his benefit, with no rounds or point system and no ref stoppage), and took off his ghi top (seemed to me an admission of guilt and a demonstration of fear that he might get choked out again). The fight was relatively boring, with Royce desperately trying to work his ground game, and Yoshida defending it while other Gracies were saying, "Fight like a man, yoshida!" trying to lure him into jumping into the Royce's ground technique. Royce DID at the VERY END, manage to get rear mount and sloppily try some strikes, but in the end, he failed to secure anything definitive in the match. Time ran out and Royce did what a loser always does: Tries desperately to act like he won. Surest sign of a loser before a decision fight or a draw is if they make a HUGE attempt to throw their hands up and smile and act like they clearly won. It's called "Trying to fake people out". Royce was trying to smirk when Ken Shamrock smashed him in the Superfight the same way. So on and so forth. The Gracies have accomplished a LOT in MMA, showed that grapplers CAN be strikes and that lack of knowledge on the ground can be deadly. They helped really build MMA in America (though Pancrase was building it in Japan before they ever did the UFC) but when it comes right down to it, the Gracies are always their biggest fans and the people that pretend they're invincible or that BJJ is the most effective martial art in the world are fooling themselves. The Gracies have fallen behind badly due to no longer able to demand their own special rules to a fight and unfortunately, BJJ has evolved to the point that Gracie Jiu-Jitsu was left in the dust, respected as the beginning but quite frankly limited in it's abilities. Gracies have lost BJJ tournaments, they've lost MMA fights to guys of different styles, wrestler's have become knowledgeable of submissions and applied brutal ground and pound to the guard, strikers have worked out sprawl and brawl techniques, Judoka's have improved throws in the clinch and implemented more ne-waza techniques (Some from Kosen Judo).... unfortunately, in this evolution of countering each other, becoming more well rounded (to the point that I've been in Taekwondo schools that teach basic clinch takedowns and submission techniques on the ground, for Cripes sake), the Gracies are obsolete. There's nothing wrong with appreciating what they did or admiring them in the beginning or even claiming them as favorite fighters. But when a Gracie clearly loses, throws a fit and his fanboys can't even admit he lost...you really LESSEN the reputation of them. And their followers. It would be more honorable to admit he just didn't have it that day.
It actually did look like Gracie passed out for a moment. He looked like he went limp and that's why the fight was stopped. BJJ is nice, but I really wish they'd give more credit to other styles. I love Judo and this was a top notch performance by Yoshida hands down.
This was a great fight by two of the best in each sport when I look at this fight I look at what I can take from it to better my self in my game and there is quite a bit. I tend not to look at it from the stand point of which art is better becuase To be honest with when you are training judo you are doing jujitsu and judo your training jujitsu I tell my students that all the time and they are better for it. Sensei Wright, Pensacola Judo and Jujuitsu
I heard about the controversy over this match. But to me it is clear. Gracie went limp, most likely because he was choked out, and that is why the match was stopped. Good call by the ref, IMO. The ref is there to protect the players. Had he not stopped the match, Royce Gracie would be dead.
GeoInSD In particular, watch Gracie's left hand just before the stoppage. It clearly went limp. It looks to me that the ref saw that and went to Gracie's right side to verify that Gracie was out. He got his verification and stopped the match. The ref was right.
On first view I thought the stoppage was bullshit. Second view was all Yoshida. He had a tight stranglehold on Royce he was going out. Yoshida was strong as fuck.
I was using the Judo term for the Judo player my friend. In BJJ they call it that because a Brazilian Judo guy named Ezekiel choked one of their guys out with it.
maybe. the camera angle doesn't really help. Just seems like at 8:25 ish u can see both his hands not really grabbing onto anything. IDK though so, who knows. Wish they had replays.
I'm so glad that he was tring to use leg-muscle techinque it's a weak point technique for bjj like throws in gard. I like that both have clothes-gi it make fight fair. I like also that it was clear fight without kicking and boxing. Great fight!
Was there a weight difference between the two? It seems like there is a bit of weight difference and size from what I see which equals some advantages.
.i can punch kick knee elbow very well...which style do you advice me?i supposed if i can throw somebody down and block i can finish with strikes..but i should learn some rolling moves too...someboby answer..i want do the right choice..osù
I think the problem here is that BJJ, while being a very effective and powerful martial art, has a number of practioners who believe that it is the ultimate martial art and don't like to accept defeat against other styles (this isnt limited to BJJ). The Gracie family really did help the martial arts world though, considering most of if not all martial arts were developed from warfare there was not a lot of emphasis placed on ground fighting. BJJ has provided scope but its not the ultimate MA.
At the end of the fight, i think Yoshida was going to the ude garami or kimura, and then he changed it for the sode guruma jime. Royce had no defense then, he put his left arm away. Yoshida was very inteligent.
@Ja71178 : The problem with wrestling is that they don't use the leg to throw their opponents, So at the end you don't see any uchimata or o uchi gari at all, which is a handicap.
"I can see where you're coming from. But I can also see why Royce would rather go to sleep than tapout. However, I don't think that the animosity against Gracie machismo is founded." That's not the point, Royce DID go to sleep, he passed out, it would be the same as if he got knocked out, it's a loss. But Royce got up and tried to dispute it and not admit he was defeated.
Now i can think about Yoshida, Parisyan, Hector Lombard, Akiyama, Nakamura, Fedor has compited in world cup judo competition, Pardoel, DOng Sik Yoong, Ferrid Kheder and Ogawa, for example...
I saw this fight at the time. Pride Dynamite, 2002. The video does not show what really happened. The replay showed that Yoshida was not even close to finalizing Gracie. His arm was pulling the chin of Royce, do not even come close to his neck. It's funny that most of you should watch MMA at most five years ago and forget the facts. If someone find a longer video can see the fact that I mentioned above.
Lol I love how actual the comments are, good to see the MMA community is still growing, I think I've watched this fight quite a couple of times in the past years and I always see new comments of people angry about Gracie losing.. I guess I felt the same when I saw one of my idols lose but he lost fair n square. I'm sure weight made a difference, top comment questions BJJ / weight but it's one thing fighting someone who can't fight and someone with the same skill, weight will always help control
@CYM2407 In the rematch(which was an MMA fight not a submission match) they talked about the controversy and showed the video from a different camera angle. Royce may have been faking(as is common in submission wrestling matches), but as soon as the ref stopped the fight, he stood straight up. If he was choked out he would have been unconscious on the ground for several seconds and unable to stand. Pride clearly had a bias towards some fighters(Sakuraba, Yoshida and anyone fighting Guy Mezger).
@MakeLadiesHappy correct. olympic judo and bjj fight by different rules so there is a different focus in practice. Maeda sensei who taught the Gracies was a kodokan judoka. "kosen judo" (which is still kodokan but fighting by old stand up to ground to submission rules) preserved more newaza focus. Not so accessible though to the average joe outside of Japan.
@easternclive This was not an MMA match. This was a grappling match Judo VS BJJ with limited kicks, no hand strikes and no points (for throws or pins or guard passes) ... simply whoever submits wins the match. The second time they fought was an MMA match, this one is pure grappling and the Judoka won via submission but Gracie rebuffed it (what else is new)...
@moelicious416 if that's really true than judo is doomed. This is the first time I hear that in the Kodokan they didn't practice any newaza. Was your friend there for a long time or just visiting?
Regardless it was a fairly even match in regards to grappling skill up untill the end, from my veiw its hard to say but he didnt seem to go limp. i'd like to see them go at it again!
You are wrong, they fought twice because Royce was mad about this stoppage because he never tapped and claimed he had not been unconcious(which is debatable). The second time they fought, it came to a draw due to time running out, but Royce dominated the fight and Yoshida needed several minutes to collect himself after the bell before he could stand up.
i have been doing karate for 13 years..after some mma competition i realized that with a strong grappler/judoka/bjj etc i have no chanche in short distance..
honestly, what's so great about being down on your back, trying to pull a guy down towards you so you can manipulate his joints or block his air/blood passage? i'm not so keen on bjj grappling.
And off he walks with his little trophy knowing that his victory was a fraud while Royce gets ridiculed for complaining about the early stoppage, that's poetry.
I don't think there is any need to diss the Gracies. Royce simply stumbled upon a better fighter than him. He had his share of wins. They are both great fighters and demand a huge amount of respect. So.. RESPECT!
@Boruta46 well contrary to popular belief, many judo dojos also emphasize on groundwork (newaza) as well as throwing techniques. I'm a judoka, and personally, I love the groundwork even more than throwing techniques
@keeponblinking i agree. the thinking that all fights terminate on the ground is not true nor ideal. street fights involving multiple armed opponents are not uncommon and falling on one's back is like asking for a quick death. best to finish the fight on one's feet or avoid getting into a fight at all. key to winning, if a fight is unavoidable, is using techniques that can kill or render one's opponent as quickly as possible.
@ooogooman The video is so ganulated it impossible to tell, but the anouncer give Gracie's weight at 88kg, and Yoshida's at 102.6kg. So you are correct, sir.
what weight class is yoshida? he actually lifted gracie from the mat using the gi. i think this is an over celebration of beating an older and weaker man.
I don't see anyone agreeing to that. Gracie did not wear the gi top as a piece of his strategy. The only thing for him to be afraid of was Yoshida lying again.
Yeah, but Royce didn't exactly pick his head up, get to his feet, and start complaining to the ref either. Gracie-Ismail is what a REAL chokeout looks like, but it might be kinda hard for a Judoka to recognize it when he sees it. Anyone that's actually been on the mat can pretty much deduce that Royce wasn't even close to being out.
Just correcting: Kodokan Judo came from both two nihon JJ schools, Kito Ryu and Yoshin Shinyo Ryu, so BJJ cames from Kodokan Judo since Helio Gracie was a 3rd Degree Judo Black Belt when began to develop BJJ. Mitsuo Maeda was an Kodokan 'embassator' sent to Europe first, then south america by OWN Kodokan!
Whoever said this is a d'arce choke is sadly mistaken. It is called an ezekiel choke and it is executed by grabbing one's own gi sleeves at about elbow level and choking out the oponent with your paralell arms. It is ironic that this bout was stopped by a Ezekiel choke when this very choke is one of the requirements to promote in Gracie JJ from white to blue belt. Although I am a fan of Judo ne-waza and JJ, and have no bias, I have a feeling Royce would have rather gone to sleep than tap out.
And i ve seen him throwing his ooponent to the ground in to a dominant position -and Parisyan, Akiyama, Lombard and Yoshida too- as a judoka. By the way, why in bjj and mma they call Kimura the technique know as ude garami?
@19thaman79 Not to mention European or Asian judokas, but major U.S. players like world and olympic medalists Mike Swain, Rhadi Ferguson, Lloyd Irvin, Karo, Gekor, "Judo" Gene all have stated (on record and many of the claims can be found on youtube) that the standing phase is the hardest to learn because there's timing, balance, trickery, technique, surprise, counter attacks, etc. Not many BJJ guys go into Judo because it's MUCH easier to lose than your avg BJJ comp. Remember, it takes 1 throw.
@TheDrCritic And on what street do you find broken glass with random stones everywhere? In all seriousness, BJJ works well in a 1-on-1 fight. I never said use it against multiple attackers (something which, statistically, rarely happens). With regard to getting thrown on the ground, that's why you do the throwing as opposed to get thrown. Your goal is to hurt your attacker.
Rather statistically speaking, you're more often attacked by multiple opponents. Getting into a streetlight willingly is not self defense. It's just stupidity.
@@henrykim921 actually, according to the FBI, most reported fights (about 70%) are one on one. Why? Most people freeze in a fight. Yes, you should avoid a fight. If you’re in a fight, things went wrong. However, you have to be ready for it. That means being well-rounded.
Royce didn't even tap, so I don't know how Yoshida could possibly consider this a victory. He was basically yelling at the ref that Royce fell asleep from the choke, which was pretty far from the truth seeing how quickly Royce started protesting. He looked pretty alert to me.
I only partially agree. Yes the better athlete has an edge but also the art is a huge part of it. If I'm an average BJJer vs. a great boxer the boxer might well knock me out with a good punch, buyt I have a better chance of winning with BJJ rather than standing and punching where I have little or no chance.
@bub4444 What argument specifically? All I said was that BJJ is a phenomenal martial art and is the best 1-on-1 martial art in my opinion. In multi-person fights, it allows you to avoid the takedown, stay on your feet, and get back up if you are taken down. Yes, BJJ is used to nullify stronger opponents through leverage, etc. I don't know what you're critiquing. By the way, Helio Gracie did not create BJJ. He perfected it, but he was not its sole founder.
i am happy i was trained in judo,it really is a tough martial art. im happy to see yoshida the judo guy beat gracie.
The Gracie's are some of the sorest losers I've ever seen. It always seems like their whole ringside team has to storm the damn mat when one of them loses.
that last choke from yoshida was really clean tho, gracie didn't even realize that.
The superiority of judo once again exposing the weakness of bjj
What do you expect Brazil jj came for Japanese judo and that's where the Gracie's failed to understand. Don't get me wrong BJJ is a good art but Judo is in another level.
@@biglj822009 True man Travis Stevens ( judo 6th dan black belt, bjj black belt) said once: ''The mentality in judo compare to bjj is totally different becouse of the time sets it's a mentality of killed or be killed . In bjj you have al the time to figure it out in kodokan judo that is not possible.
im a judo guy myself . Judo is the WHOLE. BJJ is focused on techniques (taken from judo and sometimes made it more simple ) that small and low weight people can use. its "light judo" simple techniques that are with high impact
Gracie looked pissed, anyway I simply love it when Japanese fighters end up winning the fight.
I'm a great fond of Gracie Family, but, in this fight, Yoshida victory was beautiful! Congrats to him!
@makikomi it's their strategy and the funny part about this whole thing is that Yoshida (a pure Judo player with excellent ne-waza and tachi-waza) won the match in Royce's own game (ground work) ... that's the funny part.
No one stole the fight from Gracie. Yoshida had Royce in a tight choke and Royce was not defending.
Judo is the true Japanese art👍
Yoshida is a Judo legend who has pure Judo (50% excellent throws and 50% excellent ground work). Many modern U.S. judo players have horrible ground work, but it's beginning to change ...
Looks like nothing, but is actually an extremely technical enduring battle between 2 of some of the greatest grappling styles of all time.
@del1000005 I agree but BJJ is missing 2 key points that are still vital in Judo everyday. 1) Judo allows all submissions but you have 2-3 seconds to lock it in or they stand you up. 2) Judo emphasizes on throws, which are vital to self-defense and can shock or impair an opponent thus giving you time to escape or continue into ground game. In real life time you don't get minutes to submit your opponent, you get seconds and Judo practices that exact thing in competitions.
Guys, i respect all kind of martial art. I love this sport. But Gracie's (particularly) I HATE this people because of their CHARACTERS either they won or lose a fight. It's attitude man, its attitude, its not the way you fight or your style. Its the character that counts. You see I love your style but man i hate your attitudes. Got me?
Nunca un sudamericano acepta la derrota, es un picota. El judo de Yoshida es uno de los mejores.
Son llorones , tienen muy arraigado el ser malos perdedores.
For all the whiners: Yoshida didn't tell the ref he was out, he said "He's dead out, isn't he?" The ref hurried and said, "Royce!", got no immediate answer, then screamed to call it. If there was any error or issue, it was the Ref more than anyone else. Yoshida was whooping Gracie's ass at that point. I felt sorry for Royce that he challenged a Judoka to a strict BJJ rules only match and still lost. Royce threw a fit but I always assumed it was POSSIBLE he was choked out and didn't remember it (Happened to me once, guy was applying a collar choke, I was struggling to get out of it, I blinked and he was getting off me and I was like, "What the hell?!" and I was told, "You were OUT, dude!" I said, "No I wasnt!" then I got told, "DUDE! We were saying your name like, 3 or 4 times. LOUDLY. Right next to you, you were choked out". So it's POSSIBLE Royce doesn't remember being choked out). Royce demanded a rematch under different MMA rules (again more to his benefit, with no rounds or point system and no ref stoppage), and took off his ghi top (seemed to me an admission of guilt and a demonstration of fear that he might get choked out again). The fight was relatively boring, with Royce desperately trying to work his ground game, and Yoshida defending it while other Gracies were saying, "Fight like a man, yoshida!" trying to lure him into jumping into the Royce's ground technique. Royce DID at the VERY END, manage to get rear mount and sloppily try some strikes, but in the end, he failed to secure anything definitive in the match. Time ran out and Royce did what a loser always does: Tries desperately to act like he won. Surest sign of a loser before a decision fight or a draw is if they make a HUGE attempt to throw their hands up and smile and act like they clearly won. It's called "Trying to fake people out". Royce was trying to smirk when Ken Shamrock smashed him in the Superfight the same way. So on and so forth. The Gracies have accomplished a LOT in MMA, showed that grapplers CAN be strikes and that lack of knowledge on the ground can be deadly. They helped really build MMA in America (though Pancrase was building it in Japan before they ever did the UFC) but when it comes right down to it, the Gracies are always their biggest fans and the people that pretend they're invincible or that BJJ is the most effective martial art in the world are fooling themselves. The Gracies have fallen behind badly due to no longer able to demand their own special rules to a fight and unfortunately, BJJ has evolved to the point that Gracie Jiu-Jitsu was left in the dust, respected as the beginning but quite frankly limited in it's abilities. Gracies have lost BJJ tournaments, they've lost MMA fights to guys of different styles, wrestler's have become knowledgeable of submissions and applied brutal ground and pound to the guard, strikers have worked out sprawl and brawl techniques, Judoka's have improved throws in the clinch and implemented more ne-waza techniques (Some from Kosen Judo).... unfortunately, in this evolution of countering each other, becoming more well rounded (to the point that I've been in Taekwondo schools that teach basic clinch takedowns and submission techniques on the ground, for Cripes sake), the Gracies are obsolete. There's nothing wrong with appreciating what they did or admiring them in the beginning or even claiming them as favorite fighters. But when a Gracie clearly loses, throws a fit and his fanboys can't even admit he lost...you really LESSEN the reputation of them. And their followers. It would be more honorable to admit he just didn't have it that day.
Jesse J Yeah, Judo and Catch-Wrestling have an old rivalry. You ever here of Ito vs Ad Santel? THAT was a war back in the old days.
+ Azraelangelofred Right on the money dude in all respects. Very informative observations as well bro. Thanks for the detailed post.
Yep I agree. Much in the same way Ronda Rousey was smacked with a dose of reality, as were the Gracie's.
It actually did look like Gracie passed out for a moment. He looked like he went limp and that's why the fight was stopped. BJJ is nice, but I really wish they'd give more credit to other styles. I love Judo and this was a top notch performance by Yoshida hands down.
This was a great fight by two of the best in each sport when I look at this fight I look at what I can take from it to better my self in my game and there is quite a bit. I tend not to look at it from the stand point of which art is better becuase To be honest with when you are training judo you are doing jujitsu and judo your training jujitsu I tell my students that all the time and they are better for it.
Sensei Wright,
Pensacola Judo and Jujuitsu
At least Royce held up the Gracie family tradition of losing to Japanese fighters
Yoshida cotrolled almost the whole fight!
Simple choke and Royce went to sleep! hahahaha!
Good Technique!
How much do you know about Judo osaekomi waza? They're crushing and pretty hard to get out of whether your opponent weighs more than you or not.
I heard about the controversy over this match. But to me it is clear. Gracie went limp, most likely because he was choked out, and that is why the match was stopped. Good call by the ref, IMO.
The ref is there to protect the players. Had he not stopped the match, Royce Gracie would be dead.
GeoInSD In particular, watch Gracie's left hand just before the stoppage. It clearly went limp. It looks to me that the ref saw that and went to Gracie's right side to verify that Gracie was out. He got his verification and stopped the match. The ref was right.
Their was controversy because, their are so many arrogant pompous ass people, that believe that Gracie could not ever loose a match.
Even when Sakuraba beat the Gracie's, they almost never lost gracefully.
On first view I thought the stoppage was bullshit. Second view was all Yoshida. He had a tight stranglehold on Royce he was going out. Yoshida was strong as fuck.
That strange hold is called tate shiho gatame
It's a cross lapel choke right ?
Ignatius Cheese ezeikiel
I was using the Judo term for the Judo player my friend. In BJJ they call it that because a Brazilian Judo guy named Ezekiel choked one of their guys out with it.
...
Kodokan always is the winner! Long Life to Jigoro Kano.
Pqp cara que luta incrível, realmente o judô me surpreendeu!!!!!
maybe. the camera angle doesn't really help. Just seems like at 8:25 ish u can see both his hands not really grabbing onto anything. IDK though so, who knows. Wish they had replays.
@ShaolinEast I'm assuming by your name you are a classical style practicioner?
El judo, imbatible en el suelo!!!
I'm so glad that he was tring to use leg-muscle techinque it's a weak point technique for bjj like throws in gard. I like that both have clothes-gi it make fight fair. I like also that it was clear fight without kicking and boxing. Great fight!
Was there a weight difference between the two? It seems like there is a bit of weight difference and size from what I see which equals some advantages.
.i can punch kick knee elbow very well...which style do you advice me?i supposed if i can throw somebody down and block i can finish with strikes..but i should learn some rolling moves too...someboby answer..i want do the right choice..osù
I think the problem here is that BJJ, while being a very effective and powerful martial art, has a number of practioners who believe that it is the ultimate martial art and don't like to accept defeat against other styles (this isnt limited to BJJ).
The Gracie family really did help the martial arts world though, considering most of if not all martial arts were developed from warfare there was not a lot of emphasis placed on ground fighting. BJJ has provided scope but its not the ultimate MA.
At the end of the fight, i think Yoshida was going to the ude garami or kimura, and then he changed it for the sode guruma jime. Royce had no defense then, he put his left arm away. Yoshida was very inteligent.
the sakurbura fight or did they make it up just for fun.
I agree,when bjj was new and winning it was the style that won but whenever there's someone who uses something different it's the fighter that won.
@MrSalamander7 what else is royce supposed to do? Get thrown into yoshida's guard? that was his only option.
@Ja71178 : The problem with wrestling is that they don't use the leg to throw their opponents, So at the end you don't see any uchimata or o uchi gari at all, which is a handicap.
Sensai Yoshida is one of the worlds greatest Judo experts. I would love be one of his students.
.now i want to start a short distance martial art like judo or bjj..both for competition and for self defence..
"I can see where you're coming from. But I can also see why Royce would rather go to sleep than tapout. However, I don't think that the animosity against Gracie machismo is founded."
That's not the point, Royce DID go to sleep, he passed out, it would be the same as if he got knocked out, it's a loss. But Royce got up and tried to dispute it and not admit he was defeated.
Now i can think about Yoshida, Parisyan, Hector Lombard, Akiyama, Nakamura, Fedor has compited in world cup judo competition, Pardoel, DOng Sik Yoong, Ferrid Kheder and Ogawa, for example...
Hey micrasys didn't Yoshida and Royce fight twice? Because there's another clip of Royce dominating him at the end of the fight.
What were the rules for this match?
Gracie threw those little Hapkido kicks from the first UFC but no gloves so I am guessing no punching.
I saw this fight at the time. Pride Dynamite, 2002. The video does not show what really happened. The replay showed that Yoshida was not even close to finalizing Gracie. His arm was pulling the chin of Royce, do not even come close to his neck. It's funny that most of you should watch MMA at most five years ago and forget the facts. If someone find a longer video can see the fact that I mentioned above.
I do wonder what the weight difference is between these two.
well if all of you dont know... gi choking is one of the technique in japanese martial arts such as jujitsu and aikido. Thats legal
Lol I love how actual the comments are, good to see the MMA community is still growing, I think I've watched this fight quite a couple of times in the past years and I always see new comments of people angry about Gracie losing.. I guess I felt the same when I saw one of my idols lose but he lost fair n square. I'm sure weight made a difference, top comment questions BJJ / weight but it's one thing fighting someone who can't fight and someone with the same skill, weight will always help control
@CYM2407 In the rematch(which was an MMA fight not a submission match) they talked about the controversy and showed the video from a different camera angle. Royce may have been faking(as is common in submission wrestling matches), but as soon as the ref stopped the fight, he stood straight up. If he was choked out he would have been unconscious on the ground for several seconds and unable to stand. Pride clearly had a bias towards some fighters(Sakuraba, Yoshida and anyone fighting Guy Mezger).
@MakeLadiesHappy correct. olympic judo and bjj fight by different rules so there is a different focus in practice. Maeda sensei who taught the Gracies was a kodokan judoka. "kosen judo" (which is still kodokan but fighting by old stand up to ground to submission rules) preserved more newaza focus. Not so accessible though to the average joe outside of Japan.
that gracie dude was lucky yoshida wasn't even using strikes...
@easternclive This was not an MMA match. This was a grappling match Judo VS BJJ with limited kicks, no hand strikes and no points (for throws or pins or guard passes) ... simply whoever submits wins the match. The second time they fought was an MMA match, this one is pure grappling and the Judoka won via submission but Gracie rebuffed it (what else is new)...
Were your comments directed at my comments matsuojudo?
judo is such a wicked style of fighting
@moelicious416 if that's really true than judo is doomed. This is the first time I hear that in the Kodokan they didn't practice any newaza. Was your friend there for a long time or just visiting?
Regardless it was a fairly even match in regards to grappling skill up untill the end, from my veiw its hard to say but he didnt seem to go limp. i'd like to see them go at it again!
in my opinion, this fight did not diminish jiujitsu Gracie, only magnifies the peak of the house REPRESENTATIVE Yoshida.
I beg for my ignorance but did Royce really lose that fight ? BJJ followers say he didnt .
Thx
gracies arm goes limp at 8:31... he was definitely asleep for a couple seconds, then came to when the pressure was released.
You are wrong, they fought twice because Royce was mad about this stoppage because he never tapped and claimed he had not been unconcious(which is debatable).
The second time they fought, it came to a draw due to time running out, but Royce dominated the fight and Yoshida needed several minutes to collect himself after the bell before he could stand up.
i have been doing karate for 13 years..after some mma competition i realized that with a strong grappler/judoka/bjj etc i have no chanche in short distance..
honestly, what's so great about being down on your back, trying to pull a guy down towards you so you can manipulate his joints or block his air/blood passage? i'm not so keen on bjj grappling.
And off he walks with his little trophy knowing that his victory was a fraud while Royce gets ridiculed for complaining about the early stoppage, that's poetry.
Yoshida was slightly more dominant and the ref called it prematurely. Interesting match though.
I don't think there is any need to diss the Gracies. Royce simply stumbled upon a better fighter than him. He had his share of wins. They are both great fighters and demand a huge amount of respect. So.. RESPECT!
yoshida beat royce by sodeguruma jime but there were weight difference of about 10kg between yoshida and royce
@Boruta46 well contrary to popular belief, many judo dojos also emphasize on groundwork (newaza) as well as throwing techniques. I'm a judoka, and personally, I love the groundwork even more than throwing techniques
It's the new Gracie hold. Play dead for 20 seconds, then jolt out of the choke. I guess the referee didn't get the memo.
@keeponblinking i agree. the thinking that all fights terminate on the ground is not true nor ideal. street fights involving multiple armed opponents are not uncommon and falling on one's back is like asking for a quick death. best to finish the fight on one's feet or avoid getting into a fight at all. key to winning, if a fight is unavoidable, is using techniques that can kill or render one's opponent as quickly as possible.
@ryanmildiner. its not randori if its matwork its newaza. as a black belt, you should know that.
there's always been a rivalry between judo and BJJ ever since Kimura broke Helio Gracies arm, twice.
@PankrationWarrior that was not a choke, was a immobilization i guess...
Man, you can tell Yoshida was steaming after he got out of that foot lock.
Is this mma or just submission/grappling rules?
That choke was solid, he was gonna go to sleep at any time
It wasn't a MMA match. Just grappling. No cover up.
Sorry typo, modified not modified...
@ooogooman The video is so ganulated it impossible to tell, but the anouncer give Gracie's weight at 88kg, and Yoshida's at 102.6kg. So you are correct, sir.
what weight class is yoshida? he actually lifted gracie from the mat using the gi. i think this is an over celebration of beating an older and weaker man.
it looked like gracie was more suffocated by smothering in the face than actually choked
I don't see anyone agreeing to that. Gracie did not wear the gi top as a piece of his strategy. The only thing for him to be afraid of was Yoshida lying again.
@tedpm206 What about Karo Pryisan,Oleg Taktorav and Fedor? They are world class MMA fighters and they all have Judo backgrounds.
You could see his hand was all limp. He was out
Yeah, but Royce didn't exactly pick his head up, get to his feet, and start complaining to the ref either. Gracie-Ismail is what a REAL chokeout looks like, but it might be kinda hard for a Judoka to recognize it when he sees it. Anyone that's actually been on the mat can pretty much deduce that Royce wasn't even close to being out.
It's like a game of chess! Bloody god match.
=-)
LMAO Gacie tried to cry his way out of an ass whoopin. lol lol lol lol Nice work, Yoshida.
If you watch again, at 8:26, Royce tries to break the choke but he never gets is arm in or break the choke.
Just correcting: Kodokan Judo came from both two nihon JJ schools, Kito Ryu and Yoshin Shinyo Ryu, so BJJ cames from Kodokan Judo since Helio Gracie was a 3rd Degree Judo Black Belt when began to develop BJJ. Mitsuo Maeda was an Kodokan 'embassator' sent to Europe first, then south america by OWN Kodokan!
Whoever said this is a d'arce choke is sadly mistaken. It is called an ezekiel choke and it is executed by grabbing one's own gi sleeves at about elbow level and choking out the oponent with your paralell arms. It is ironic that this bout was stopped by a Ezekiel choke when this very choke is one of the requirements to promote in Gracie JJ from white to blue belt. Although I am a fan of Judo ne-waza and JJ, and have no bias, I have a feeling Royce would have rather gone to sleep than tap out.
q ano foi essa luta ?
why this fight is woithout punching and kicking?
And i ve seen him throwing his ooponent to the ground in to a dominant position -and Parisyan, Akiyama, Lombard and Yoshida too- as a judoka. By the way, why in bjj and mma they call Kimura the technique know as ude garami?
@19thaman79 Not to mention European or Asian judokas, but major U.S. players like world and olympic medalists Mike Swain, Rhadi Ferguson, Lloyd Irvin, Karo, Gekor, "Judo" Gene all have stated (on record and many of the claims can be found on youtube) that the standing phase is the hardest to learn because there's timing, balance, trickery, technique, surprise, counter attacks, etc. Not many BJJ guys go into Judo because it's MUCH easier to lose than your avg BJJ comp. Remember, it takes 1 throw.
@TheDrCritic And on what street do you find broken glass with random stones everywhere?
In all seriousness, BJJ works well in a 1-on-1 fight. I never said use it against multiple attackers (something which, statistically, rarely happens).
With regard to getting thrown on the ground, that's why you do the throwing as opposed to get thrown. Your goal is to hurt your attacker.
Rather statistically speaking, you're more often attacked by multiple opponents.
Getting into a streetlight willingly is not self defense. It's just stupidity.
@@henrykim921 actually, according to the FBI, most reported fights (about 70%) are one on one. Why? Most people freeze in a fight.
Yes, you should avoid a fight. If you’re in a fight, things went wrong. However, you have to be ready for it. That means being well-rounded.
Royce didn't even tap, so I don't know how Yoshida could possibly consider this a victory. He was basically yelling at the ref that Royce fell asleep from the choke, which was pretty far from the truth seeing how quickly Royce started protesting. He looked pretty alert to me.
@LittleJ2008 Royce was asleep. Once the choke is off, you come to quickly especially if you are used to getting choked.
aww, sounds like royce was throwing his toys out the pram at the end
I only partially agree. Yes the better athlete has an edge but also the art is a huge part of it. If I'm an average BJJer vs. a great boxer the boxer might well knock me out with a good punch, buyt I have a better chance of winning with BJJ rather than standing and punching where I have little or no chance.
@bub4444 What argument specifically? All I said was that BJJ is a phenomenal martial art and is the best 1-on-1 martial art in my opinion. In multi-person fights, it allows you to avoid the takedown, stay on your feet, and get back up if you are taken down.
Yes, BJJ is used to nullify stronger opponents through leverage, etc. I don't know what you're critiquing. By the way, Helio Gracie did not create BJJ. He perfected it, but he was not its sole founder.