The Problem With Thicker Irons
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- Опубліковано 6 вер 2024
- REED Replacement Parts: www.woodbywrig...
Video From Rex Comparing thick and thin irons: • Modern vs. Vintage Pla...
Video Installing File To Fit Yoke: • How to Install and Use...
Thicker Irons on old planes can be a nice upgrade, but they can lead to a few problems. today we are looking at why Modern Irons need a bigger mouth. Why Thicker Irons May not work with Old Plane yokes. and why you might need a longer chipbreaker screw to work with a thicker modern iron.
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No need to feel or sound like a broken record, you have some of the best advice oit there! 💯
Getting your planes to perform how you need really makes woodworking enjoyable. A shimmering freshly planed surface is my goal and I hope some of my modifications can help people achieve this amazing surface. Rex's video is good one to watch. Thanks James for all your support and help.
Hot rodding your plane is the best way to really understand how it works and to tune it properly. Thankfully Jeff Reed has come to the rescue!
And I've never thought about it being bevel down whilst moving the frog, always kept it lined up with body...tks!
That was very comprehensive!
Thanks man!
My first plane was my dad’s no. 6 Stanley and I bought a new, thick iron for it. It wouldn’t fit in the throat at all. I had to file out the throat to even use the plane. Works great now.
I bought the Zen Wu tool works replacement iron you mentioned in a more recent video. I encountered the three problems you describe. I discovered the cap iron was as sharp as the blade. So I made two wooden bevel up planes, one with the blade and one with the cap iron. Both are very hard metal and even with my Worksharp take ages to sharpen. Both work equally well. I find the top of the market planes are too heavy but my Qiangsheng Jack is wonderfully comfortable.
Thanks James for the video and subsequent info and thanks to Reed planes for offering "plane" solutions.
Thanks for solving these problems, each one of which I have encountered.
When you use the a 5/16x18 bolt if you chuck it up in your drill and run it a against a running belt sander you can round the head in about s minute or so you can also put it in a lathe and knurle the edge…the thread size is 5-1/6x18 BSW 55*but here in the US we use SAE which is 60*…
2:30 i love finding room in my shop i didn't even realize i had. Thank you!
After a while using the stanley iron on my first plane, I bought a better blade made out of better steel and it was also thicker. I ran into the mouth problem and there was no way to have the blade go through the mouth. At the time it was my only good plane so I was too scared to file the mouth and ruin a tool that served me well. A little more than a year after that I bought the plane that was originally design to go with the blade I purchased and I instantly had 2 irons for it 😂
And I still use the thin iron when I use my stanley. The new plane is better in my opinion better fit and finish but is also way heavier and so I still end up using the old plane quite often
My Spiers Ayr coffin smoothing plane had a thicker blade in it that was just about used up. Contacted Hock for a replacement blade. Couldn't be happier!
I never realised the issues with a thick iron in a metal bodied plane. I love thick irons in my wooden planes... more surface area to feel the bevel when sharpening.. chip breaker doesnt seem to twist and just feel stronger and more substantial. But i never thought about putting one in a metal body plane.
Maybe one day ill give it a go just to experiment with these issues 👍
Perfect timing, was just thinking about getting a second iron for 2 of my planes... Great info as always,
Thanks for the info I’m happy with a thinner iron at the moment but it’s nice to have this info should I need it in the future
Very late in the day, but I may have run into another issue with a thick iron/chipbreaker--the bolt that the lever cap works against. In my #5, I have a Hock iron and chipbreaker, but I have to loosen that bolt to the point where it feels like there just aren't that many threads in there gripping it.
That's why Jeff sells the longer chip breaker screw.
@@WoodByWrightHowTo I'm talking about the one that goes between the frog and the lever cap--I haven't found anyone selling a longer version of that.
Oh I have never seen that one too short before.
Now I know how to fit a thicker one in my mouth. Thank you, Wood by Wright!
Excellent hint and how too, thanks from RSA
Nice Texas joke at the end. I have another caption for sqrt(-4)=2 equation.
"In this realm, we ignore all negativities."
The only times I have ever experienced chatter is when the blade was in need of sharpening, so on my Bailey pattern planes the stock blade works well enough for me to not want to change them out. But I do like the thicker irons that my wooden body and infill planes have. Guess it is horses for courses.
Pretty interesting stuff, James! Thanks! 😃
Stay safe there with your family! 🖖😊
I have a Buck Brothers #4 and #5 hand planes, both have really thin blades and yes the planes are definitely not as awesome as my old Stanley Baily planes or Wood River or Lie Nielsen planes, the blades themselves cut just as good. I've only noticed one plane I have chatter and it is an old Montgomery Wards plane. Honestly I think that chatter was more due to the funky pressed metal frog than the blade itself.
This is one of the videos where James forgot to breath 😅
The thickness/mouth problem isn't restricted to planes.
I recently had an interference problem trying to fit a Hoch iron to a Record spokeshave. I was prepared to file the spokeshave mouth but happened to have a NOS record spokeshave iron in my parts box. Problem solved.
No problem fitting Hoch irons to late model Stanley spokeshaves in my experience.
Mind blown! I think this video is awesome, it'll help me make my decent Bailey's even better
Great video. Thanks for posting
Thanks James
I put a Hock O1 in my No.4 Bailey smoother where I keep a really narrow mouth anyway, and a Hock A2 in my No. 7 jointer which I really like for edge retention with heavy use. Stock irons in everything else but I really enjoy using the Hocks. I might have to check out those retrofit yokes to take some backlash out.
chatter is a misnomer. ever noticed that the craftsmen who actually used these planes all day every day, never went out and retrofitted them with thicker blades. no need to, they worked perfectly as designed. its marketers who wanting to push something new who came up with all this. now we tell amateurs that they need this stuff and they all fall over themselves to pay the dollars to keep up with each other. a properly sharpened, properly set up plane will not chatter.
I bought the pmv11 because the blade I got with an old stanley was so badly pitted it was not worth it to fight with it, did not regret that new blade, excellent steel, easy to sharpen.
@@gungle24i have both and others as well, the pmv11 actually has a difference I can feel, both in the cut and when sharpening.
Paul Sellers feels there is No reason for a thicker iron. Someone who has planned more wood thank any of us knows what he's talking about.
If we want to push that logic, metal plane are are marketing plot because the wooden plane worked perfectly for hundreds of years…And they didn’t need the whole Stanley numbered line up. Personally, I can feel the difference between my veritas and my pre ww2 Stanley. I just don’t have the kind of hobby money to fill my tool chest with veritas
@@Logistikkh Wooden planes came in as many different sizes and numbers as Stanley, and probably more. Veritas and LN build very fine planes, no doubt about that. I've tried a Veritas once. Was it so better than my Stanley that I'd spend that kind money? No. My older Stanley's and especially my Stanley Bedrocks can work much better than I can use them. I would like to try out a well tuned Wooden plane. I might really be surprised. The Stanley Bailey planes were not developed to work better than Wood ones. It was the ability to increase mass production of planes. Thus it would and did bring down the costs and constant work required of the Wooden ones. Even the transformation planes were a step in that direction. It was never about the quality of a well tuned Wooden plane v. Stanley Bailey...
It's to each their own poison.
Danke für die gute Erklärung.
Great video. Thanks for the info.
Thank you for sharing.
That yoke is a great idea.
I love that t-shirt.
Oh my G, your T-shirt
I have been looking for older model handle screws for Record planes with whitworth threads.
Now that would be fun.
These parts could help restore broken or missing parts on old planes one may find at a yard sale.
Great info!
Also, I hold my breath every time you’re talking about the iron, holding it in one hand while gesturing/waving the other one about right near the edge! 😬
The camera always shrinks the space in front of it. Makes it feel like the two are pretty close.
@@WoodByWrightHowTo
By the way, thank you for the in-depth initial and followup videos reviewing the rubber flooring. I recently installed the same 3/8” black/blue flubber in my new workspace! So far so good, though it still smells a bit like a Michelin store after a 2 weeks and mopping 4 times. Hoping that odor will continue to fade, so I can better enjoy the smells of working Spanish cedars and such.
Looks and feels great in the space. Your review was super helpful.
I must be honest and say I've never used a thick iron in a baily but I've never also experienced chatter with the standard thin iron even with maple, oak, black walnut etc.
Completely not on this topic , but not sure where or how to ask this question. How can you make rule joint for tables without rule joint planes? Can you use a Stanley 45 for this joint with the right blades to create this joint? Or where can you get a set of rule joint planes? Wanting to make a folding table. Any help will be greatly appreciated
In the hand tool world that is called a hollow and round. If you want them new red rose reproductions makes them. If you want them used check out www.Handtoolfinder.com a Stanley 55 can do it but it is a pain.
@@WoodByWrightHowTo Thank you !
A very frustrating video James. I could't see enough of the T shirt for long enough to read it.
Once I could, I understood it!
How do I get that t-shirt! That is brilliant!
Great Christmas Gift!
I put a Hock blade and chip breaker in a No. 7 jointer plane and I think it is a vast improvement over the stock blade. Is it a sharper blade or more ridgity? I just know I like the Hock better.
I'm with you up to the square corners.
I put a Hock blade in my 4 1/2 that I use as a smoother. It leaves the surfaces so smooth they're glossy.
I'm from the Paul Sellers school,thin irons worked for a hundred years, why change? Regards Jim.
I think I'm mostly in that same boat.
Really James? (I ask that sincerely, not sarcastically.) With this video and others you’ve made on the topic, I was under the impression that you were really into hot-rodding “improvements.” I’m genuinely confused on the issue myself. If Paul Sellers is right that chattering is virtually non-existent and is a very misunderstood concept; and that pricier, thicker blades are wholly unnecessary-because the old thinner blades can accomplish whatever the thicker ones can do-then why indeed are thicker blades anything more than a superfluous marketing scheme to make more money? So I’m going to ask the uncomfortable question that most people seemingly do not want to ask: Where is Paul incorrect in his argumentation, if anywhere? Because at this point, it seems to me that if Paul is correct-and I’m inclined to think he is-then what’s the point of thicker blades other than a brilliant ploy to make more money?
There is a difference between need and NEED! hot Roding a plane is fun and enjoyable. even if it does not bring a better result. it feels good and that is what is important. thicker iron, tighter settings finer adjustments do not make better work. that all comes down to the person pushing the tool. but often those small things can make it more enjoyable.
Yes 100 %
I just got the PMV 11 and chip breaker for my no. 3. The blade seems to be too short and I have to advance it as far as the yoke will allow for it to protrude enough to cut. Is that a common problem? Any ideas on how to fix it?
That means the yoke hole in the chip breaker is in the wrong place. Each company moved the yoke up and down.
What? No thick comments yet?
Nice discussion. There are some things that my experience says are only right sometimes. That discussion about the the thicker iron never touching the bed on older planes is mistaken. The bevel can indeed meet interference from the bed on some older planes. I have a Stanley Type 11 that cannot operate with a thick iron at all. That was when I first started restoring old planes to use them. The choices are basically either dust for shavings, and clogging things up or nothing. You simply can't move the frog back far enough to open the throat. Also, chatter may not be about the the iron at all. I have a Record where I had a terrible chatter problem. I had to fettle the frog and the cap iron, but that only helped a little. The blade was also bowed or cupped so that the bottom of the iron lifted off the frog surface. The cap iron would not hold the iron down. That blade had to be replaced, but not because it was thin.
0:18: Carpenters of hundreds of thousands of years ago arguing about thin vs thick plane irons:
Carpenter #1: "Thicker irons are better!"
Carpenter #2: "No, thinner irons are better!"
Carpenter #3: "Wait a minute -- what the heck is 'iron'?"
LOL or not of. though that would be interesting.
An unrelated question, can we do a 'charlesworth ruler trick' on a bevel up iron?
Sure. On that one it actually causes far less issues than it does for a beveled down plane.
At 9:03 : "doobuhladoo" - is that what the kids are calling it these days?
LOL yup. surprisingly that is the old name from back when the vlog bothers were new to youtube.
I have an off topic question...what are the different types of chucks on bit braces? And which one would you recommend versatility and availability to get bits to fit? Is there a Chuck that works for all bits?
Thank you James in advance
Now that would be a long video. And there are hundreds of them out there. But the best way to answer the question is take a quarter hex bit and a square taper bit and try it in the truck. If you can get both of them to be secure that job will hold just about anything.
@@WoodByWrightHowTo I have not purchased a bit braces yet.Just wondering what I should look for
Can anyone help me with my no 5 Jack plane. My depth adjustment gets tight and won’t advance enough to get the iron out past the mouth unless I have about 1/4 inch or more of the iron past the chip breaker. I’ve tried old sets from Stanley , defiance and a thicker set from taytools 🤷🏻♂️ just can’t seem to figure it out
It could be a bunch of things, but if there is still travel for the adjuster nut, it sounds like the yoke is binding up. That is not normal for original, but it is common if the yoke has been replaced.
Nice!
you remind me of another guy .one from wood Wright show .... relation?
Desiring to use a thicker iron seems to remind me of the book , " If you give a Mouse a Cookie " .
I follow that path many times!
Thath just thick Jameth.
I'm guessing that thicker irons are often different types of steel. Which raises the issue of how well you're sharpening system is tuned to the type of steel you are now using.
The really old plane irons were heat treated by color alone. Most are very good. others are junk. Earlier planes had mild steel that had an inch or so of very good alloy steel forge welded in place. These can be very or POS.
I received one old plane that had the heat treated area ground away by years of sharpening. I used a skill (Easy one) that I learned years ago and reheat treated it. It is still one of my better irons....
IBC sell a blade and chip breaker set that has a small piece welded in so the original yoke will still engage.
It's nearly always about the size of the mouth and of course how many biscuits I can get in it! LOL.
Just got the notice but days 5 days ago...o well. I like my irons like I like my women, thicker then a snicker! 😆
Thicker blade, no backlash. What could be better? If you have a powered sharpener then thickness is much less of a problem if you are upgrading your plane rather than buying a premium one.
Is there a way to replace a broken lever cap spring? I inherited my Grand Fathers old Stanley #4, but the lever cap spring is broken. Like a lot of people these days I work so much that I have very little time for swap meets, or garage sales to locate a replacement lever cap.
You could make one and drill out the pin and then rivet on a new one. But I don't know of anyone who makes a replacement spring. It's usually cheaper to get the lever cap. You can probably find quite a few of them in the parts listing on www.handtoolfinder.com
Search at ebay.
That is a last resort.
I put a Hock in my Bedrock and no filing or changes needed. I put a Veritas in a Bailey, and had to file the mouth. I guess Forrest Gump was right. It's like a box of chocolates, and you'll never know what you'll get.
Every plane is different.
OK
Maybe you covered this in a video not sure this isn’t relevant too the current video
Why are all your planes blue ?
If I completely stripped down and repaint a hand plane for my own use, I use a shop color for it Rose and putting the original Japan back on it. But if I restore a tool that I'm going to sell or give away then I usually go with the standard japanning.
@@WoodByWrightHowTo very neat it sure brightens up your shop. Hello from Ontario
I call Ron Hock and makes the decision as to what will work!
Love to know if the PMV-11 can be fitted to a Stanley
Sure. They make replacement irons with pmv 11
@@WoodByWrightHowTo Oh well, off to ask questions to those who can read
@@DuncanEdwards.Veritas makes 5 different PMV-11 blades specifically for Stanley Planes... You do know that PMV-11 is a type of steel, not a part number?
@@trollforge Oh dear another who can not read
@@DuncanEdwards. when 2 people have given what you think is the wrong answer, maybe the problem is with the original question...
Seems a shame to modify the mouth of a decent old Stanley
That is always a last resort.
The next owner of the old plane may view the plane as being defective with an filed enlarge mouth especially without the thick iron /cap. The old/vintage plane loses value with the modification. Why mess with it? You are better saving the money and spent it on a new modern plane IMO.
That replacement is no yoke!
Really? Who does all this and why? What's wrong with standard vintage Stanley setups? Would I bother doing all this? No...! I'd rather be working with wood than faffing around with silly gear 'upgrades'.
I think I am in the same boat as you. But by far the vast majority of hand tool users are often trying to find the best iron they can possibly have.
Question dude. I liek the look of a brass lever cap, i have woodriver, do you see an issue with spraying the lever cap with rustolum brass color? any functioinality issue with doing that ?
I would use a self etching primer first. amzn.to/3uBDjag but I have done that a few times! works well.