Forced Induction Fundamentals with Keith Tanner (FM Live)
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- Опубліковано 22 сер 2024
- This week on FM Live, Keith Tanner discusses the fundamentals of forced induction and how it works with your Miata.
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You say you're boring us, meanwhile I'm here two years after this was posted listening to all the great info! Thanks Keith and the FM Team!
Thanks for tuning in! :D
Every time you post a video Keith, I feel like I'm sitting in a college-level classroom I learn so much. Really great stuff, Professor Bats**t!
Keith saying "I don't know" honestly makes me respect him more. I've dealt with these guys a number of times over the years on different work I've had done on my 2004 MSM. Also, as the owner of an MSM I think you would be better off upgrading a stock NB vs an MSM. The MSM turbo sucks, and so does the ECU. FWIW.
Yes, the stock turbo in the MSM leaves much to be desired. I also have an 04 MSM but with the mods that make it near perfect (for me) The little enchilada not only ups the power to about 200 WHP but vastly improves driveability as well. Also changed to 15" wheels and coil-overs. Near perfect except you need to learn to respect the power boost.when exiting turns. It kicks!
you're a pleasure to listen to Keith. Your passion really comes through
Good educational content. I knew most of it but what I found the most interesting is why/how you moved from different FI options. You guys stand behind what you sell and that's why you get my business.
Keith low-key be all end all knowledge for miatas. My schoolteachers could learn from you, the way you explain is just excellent!!
Good stuff! I just finished cramming an nb1 chassis (sans engine) in the shell of my na6, and am considering boost with my now beefier drivetrain. I didn’t learn a ton from this video that I didn’t already know, but you guys did a great job of laying out the basics, and quelling a few myths I’ve heard thrown around regarding different forms of forced induction. Great content as always, keep it comin! :)
Really enjoying this series of videos from your home garage - thank you! Loads of info and confirmation of what I did with my turbo 1.6 1991 car. Your informal (even with lab coat!) and matter-of-fact delivery is perfect.
I've got a 1.8 m45 using msd with 250k and no complaints!
Great content! You guys deserve more views
Keith, the universal gas law is PV = nRT. You mention the gas law at 6:08 in the video. For a given amount of air at a given volume if the pressure increases 5 PSI (boost) over atmospheric pressure (14.7 PSI) to approximately 20 PSI, a change of 25%, the temperature also rises 25% absolute, from 530 degrees Rankine ( 70 F or room temperature) to 1.25 x 530 R = 662.5 R, or 203 F. In practice the boosted air loses volume, so the temperature of the air leaving the turbocharge, while hot, does not reach this theoretical maximum. I am enjoying this series of videos.
Of course, any inefficiencies would add to this temperature.
when i drove through arizona 114 degree f, i didn't notice a huge drop in power on the Edelbrock supercharger. nd1. i inquired about a bbr turbo from flying miata and was told that they would not be available to do the install and tuning.
If you had done multiple runs to redline, you would have found the power loss as the intercooler heatsoaked.
There is no tuning required for a BBR turbo. We are not currently doing installs on customer cars, but we do support other shops who do.
Would you please do a video on ignition upgrades. What can be done and when should you?
The turbo system I envision is modest in power and great on autocross drivability and street livability
1. What happened to the 2554 turbo? You used to say it is the best turbo for lag.
2. What happens to fuel economy when the turbo is added.? What if you add the bigger injectors from the old FM2?
We no longer offer the 2554 because it was a poor seller. It was a good choice for the 1.6 at lower boost but then lost out to the 2560 in power and response.
Fuel economy at cruise usually sees a very slight improvement. Full throttle fuel consumption goes up because power goes up. If you add bigger injectors and the engine management to control them, you can make more power. If you add bigger injectors with the stock ECU and a Voodoo Box, you will run rich all the time as the ECU will not be able to compensate.
What happened to Bill and Terri Cardell?
They still own Flyin’ Miata, but they’re not super-comfortable in front of a camera!
@@FlyinMiataVideo So you're saying we shouldn't all chase them down with cameras and microphones? Damn! There goes my April Fool's idea...
Turbo upgrade for Fiata 124's?
Just bought my NC, after dreaming of having a miata since a friend let me drive hers back in '98. I was pretty bummed when I discovered that nobody makes a twin screw for it anymore. Did anything ever come along for the NC or is that still trying to come to life? I've got a little time before I'll be ready to start adding more power (I wanna get to know the thing at stock power first, lol), and if the only option that isn't a full custom twin screw setup ends up being a turbo by that time, that's what I'll end up with, but I'm just drawn to a supercharger. Love that SC whine, lol.
Twin screws have never been very common on any Miatas, and we're not aware of anyone putting one in the NC. We don't have any plans to implement it. It's always possible our roots style unit could return to the market but we're working on something else at the moment.
@@FlyinMiataVideo Yeah, that's what I had kind of gathered. One can dream though :) Fortunately it seems like it's a good platform for a nice quick spooling turbo, and I do enjoy the exhaust note of a turbo car. Now to start saving those pennies for when the time comes :)
Hi Keith, I'm starting with a 2002 and will turbo it eventually. I've heard comments about the stock radiator as a grenade. What work is reasonable to do in preparation or at the time of turbo installation on the NB? Radiator, clutch, catch can, oil cooler, engine compartment ventilation, etc.
The stock radiator isn't a grenade if it's in good shape. The problem is that they get fragile as they age. If it's the original radiator from 2002, it's 18 years old and probably is brittle. If it's a quality stock replacement, it will not crack. It may not provide the cooling capabilities you need, but that's different than being a "grenade".
The amount of prep you need to do depends on your expected power level. For our Stage 1 turbos, the car just needs to be in healthy mechanical shape (ie, no antique radiators!) and it may benefit from some cooling upgrades. The stock clutch on a 2002 may or may not slip at those power levels, it's right on the limits of what it can handle. Oil coolers, vents, catch cans - those are the sort of things we'd recommend for a car that is running higher power levels and expects to see track use.
@@FlyinMiataVideo Thanks for the perspective
Not in the near future, but in 5 years maybe I plan on turboing my 1.6. I heard that you will never really be able to get the ecu to run smoothly once you get a standalone. Is this true? and what should I expect to do if I want to keep it as a daily?
It is true that getting stock driveability out of a standalone requires a lot of experience and time. It can be done but it is rare for individuals to spend the effort. Mazda's engineers spent thousands of hours on the problem.
One way to avoid driveability problems is to use the stock ECU with something like our Voodoo Box to add fuel under boost. When you're out of boost, the car is just like Mazda tuned it. The ultimate power level is lower but it's a good option for a daily driver.
can you talk about ram air
Here's a question for you, what schools have a good Mechanical Engineering program focusing on Automotive Engineering?
ND2 BBR turbo?
The engine management is not yet available.
I too, wish to turbocharge my ND2. Super excited to see what kind of reliable, streetable gains can be had once the ECU stuff is figured out.
You could also make shorter videos, per interesting topic, editted out this video. probably easy to do and get more traffic to the channel
What about “cool side” superchargers (i.e. Fast Forward) vs. exhaust or “hot side” superchargers?
A supercharger on the intake side is usually on a custom intake manifold. It has the advantage of minimum throttle volume if it's not intercooled or if it uses an air/water Laminova-style setup. It's usually our preferred option - we've sold a lot of different supercharger setups over the years and the best ones have been on the intake side with air/water intercooling. But it's also more expensive.
The exhaust side is easier plumbing for an external intercooler but that means lots of throttled volume. The temperatures from the exhaust aren't a major factor, as most of the temperature rise in the air existing the supercharger is due to the pumping or compressing of the air.
Is the ND1 transmission strong enough for the BBR turbo?
That seems to depend on how the car is used. The rate of failure does not seem to be any higher on turbo cars than on aggressively driven naturally aspirated cars. We do offer an NC transmission conversion if this is a concern, however.
can you tune nd2 with exhaust and headers to increase the redline? how high can you get the redline?
We haven't explored where the rpm limits are on the ND2. Remember that stress on the internals such as the rods goes up exponentially with engine speed, so sometimes you find out in a very expensive way how fast is too fast.
Can your kits make 5-600 pump gas hp on a stock ish engine with upgraded aftermarket Rods and a lowered compression ratio, maybe add ARP 2000 studs and bolts?
You would need a large turbo for that sort of power range, and pump gas is an aggressive target for a turbo 1.8 making over 500 hp. We don't currently offer a kit that would be a good base for that sort of power level - the manifold has a T2 flange which is small for that turbo size, and the rest of the piping would be undersized for that power level. That's a very high power goal, and there are probably no more than a dozen Miatas running in that power range with the original engine block.
I hear a lot about hp limits to the stock rods, what is, in fm's opinion, the rpm limit of those rods.
HP limits and RPM limits are not the same thing. RPM puts a lot of tensile load on the rods, and that increases exponentially with engine speed. I wouldn't spin the stock rods much past the stock redline just to be sure.
HP tends to be limited by the compressive strength at torque peak, and since knock is a major spike in load they're most likely to fail if there's a problem with the engine management. It's easier to change rods as a preventative measure than rebuild an engine that has a big hole in the side and metal chunks inside everything that shares the oil supply, so we recommend stronger rods anytime you're looking to push past about 250 rwhp on an NA or NB.
From what I can tell in the forums this guy literally wrote the book
Yes, Keith's written three books on the Miata.
Ever done a turbo & supercharger together? Asking for a friend ;)
We actually did assemble and drive one a few years back. The problem we had at that time was not enough supporting modifications - and the fact that it is literally twice as expensive as doing just one so it's more of a stunt than anything. It's been done a couple of times in the OE world.
@@FlyinMiataVideo thank you. Followed you since the start. Still THE best. Cheers
how much boost can you run with a voodoo box say in an NB with lower compression pistons? For the sake of science, lets say the voodoo box was still adjustable.
Trick question. The limit isn't boost, it's power. The stock injectors on an NB max out at 190-200 rwhp depending on the year of the car, and that is your power limit regardless of how you get there.
Speaking about emission legal emphasis for us buyers while standing next to an over 400hp "street" Miata. I doubt that car has a stock ECU eh. :)
That Miata is a 1994, which means you can run the EROD package from GM Performance and be completely emissions legal even in California. And yes, it's a stock ECU for that engine.
Check out the "California engine swaps the cops can't touch" video on the Hagerty channel for more info.
can't wait for 250 hp nd2 turbo
fix your audio, yo
everything is illegal. lol. everyone is a criminal. they just didn't get caught yet. haha.