Montreal is Making a Big Mistake | Blue Line Resignalling
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- Опубліковано 27 чер 2024
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Montreal is about to spend a ton of money on a huge project that will upgrade the Blue Metro Line, but not provide platform screen doors or automation, something Paris did 10 years ago for less money on the historic Line 1. Let's discuss.
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Ever wondered why your city's transit just doesn't seem quite up to snuff? RMTransit is here to answer that, and help you open your eyes to all of the different public transportation systems around the world!
Reece (the RM in RMTransit) is an urbanist and public transport critic residing in Toronto, Canada, with the goal of helping the world become more connected through metros, trams, buses, high-speed trains, and all other transport modes.
If you make a video in French with the thesis “Montreal is copying Toronto… and it shouldn’t” I genuinely believe you have a shot at changing the narrative here.
In all seriousness, appreciate the breakdown. I saw the news yesterday and felt some relief there were funds committed despite the bus service cuts. Now I’m wondering what other compromises were made before they made this public announcement.
We will see of course it’s better than nothing but I think we need to aim higher!
@@RMTransit Happy to help with subtitles
@@RMTransit if u need help with translation ill be glad to do so
Rédigé en Français, ton texte devra signaler que Toronto a copié la technologie des portes de sécurité inventée et installée depuis belle lurette à Lille et à Toulouse (in France) ...
I never considered the placement of columns as a _cost savings_ but you're not wrong! Now I'm thinking about Seattle's new LR stations... 🤔
Yep, it’s potentially a significant one for making structures simpler
@@RMTransit It also makes it possible fotr the ceiling not to collaps on your head. So definittely there is to think about if or when we need those.
Maybe the existing plans have the columns in the right place anyway. Did anyone check?
In Singapore the columns are often thick enough that ads could be plastered on them, alongside directional signs & emergency train stop buttons
I hear you speaking about new lines, extended systems, platform screen doors, automated trains, increased frequency, and all the wonderful new things that places like Montreal, Vancouver, Toronto and the rest of the world are getting. Then I look at my hometown of Orlando. One commuter rail line that goes from where no one wants to go from to where no one wants to go to with ridiculously low frequency and no night or weekend service. And did I mention our gloriously lousy bus service? And then I start to cry. Florida: where urban planning and public transit goes to die. 😢
That being said, keep up the good work. At least I can see where someone is getting good transit. Because we never will. 🤬
Thanks for watching! Orlando could do lots of stuff if it wanted
The Sunshine Corridor expansion will be a step in the right direction for Orlando.
That's the usual dilemma of evaluation, as he said "Montreal is the best in Norh America" but still behind it's possibilities, not as good as it could be. Watching to the rest of America is like searching for an excuse, "whatever we do, other are worse, so we can do what they want and are still better". That's not a good approach.
@@holger_p I doubt there is much out there worse than SunRail in Orlando.
Honestly I think Orlando is in a position where things might shift for the better in the next 10 years. Biggest thing that was mentioned was the Sunshine Corridor extension. Giving Sunrail access to the convention center, Epic Universe (By proxy the current Universal Resort), the new affordable housing complex by Epic Universe, and the airport, there is a backbone and small drive to get transit started. If they're able to increase the frequency and weekend operations for the rail when the new extension is complete, it would give tourist access to those destinations without needing to rent a car and provide an alternative for service workers to commute. Aside from the increased service they'd need to make sure buses can connect to the existing Sunrail stations better and we'd have a solid base to start with. Not to mention people getting commuter passes for Brightline also will expand the network for people to work from Tampa to Coco pretty easily.
Biggest thing is making sure we can get more of the community on board since there was the rejection of the transit tax proposal on the 2022 ballot. The rejection of funds and expansions definitely hurt to see but since brightline and the corridor are coming, I think there's a big opportunity to drive transit in a positive direction in the region.
Just wanted to add a bit of information:
- Platforms on the old stations would need to be reinforced to support PSDs. The new stations are supposed to be PSD ready, but I don’t understand why we don’t already install them at this point.
- The STM has confirmed that the old MR-73 cannot be retrofitted for CBTC and the blue line will exclusively be running Azur trains
- All the lines, except maybe the yellow line, already have some form of intrusion detection system in tunnels. I don’t remember if those systems are also enabled in station, but I suspect they are or that it could be included in the signalling upgrades
- The platforms at Saint-Michel can currently only accommodate 6 car trains, those platforms extensions were roughed in during its conception. I suspect that a significant portion of the projects funds will serve to tear down the walls and prepare that roughed in section of the station.
- Seeing how the line will only run Azur trains, which are CBTC ready and it already has an intrusion detection system, I guess the main reason why we’re not going with automation off the bat is because the STM wants to share the rolling stock between the orange and blue line, which means keeping driver cabs. I don’t think those cabs affect automation, but maybe they think it’s not worth it if it’s still there? idk.
The answer is: unions.
The platform reinforcement for retrofitting automatic platform gates is exactly happening on the East Rail Line in Hong Kong. Also worth noting that all refit of PFSD/APG in Hong Kong metro system do not require closing the line/station at all.
Sick of hearing about platform screen doors
"The STM has confirmed that the old MR-73 cannot be retrofitted for CBTC and the blue line will exclusively be running Azur trains"
Where did you hear that? That is not at all what I've been seeing. The Blue line extension is projected to be finished by 2029, which is when CBTC will also be activated on the line. The MR73 is not expected to be retired from service until at least 2036. Also, as far as I know, there aren't any new Azurs on the way. 71 sets have been delivered for the Orange and Green lines, with nothing more confirmed. The STM has always maintained that they planned to keep the MR73s for the foreseeable future.
@@mikeamber2528 Actually no. In a recent article of the Metro local newspaper, the STM confirmed that they were gonna switch to Azur trains in 2029!
"Come along with me as I get irrationally angry about trains" is one of the best video introductions I've ever heard.
Platform doors were planned on the Orange line before the pandemic by the STM, but it was canceled during the pandemic because there is no more money for new projects, and then they announce this!
I’d definitely rather have the blue line extension than psd, maybe it’s just me but I don’t see it as such a necessity unless your system is prone to overcrowding
@@jacobzehavi3279 I think they need to be installed eventually but yeah I agree that extensions are more important
@@jacobzehavi3279 They are necessary for sure, they massively improve service. However I also think the blue line is a priority, there are a bunch of areas not really connected to transit, a shame what happened to the REM de l'est because it would've brought a massive improvement to Montréal Nord.
Ahh…. Bienvenue au Quebec… why spending 500 millions for something useful and that reduces costs when instead you can spend the same amount of money for something that is already updated, but that will cause to spend more money in the future, which most probably will end up in the pockets of always the same contractors and the same syndacates? And WORSE, are you suggesting to replace the super well paid jobs of metro drivers with an automatic system that doesn’t require overpaid positions? Be careful.
I could not agree more, but this is the illusion. We could likely have both!
I’m just happy the Blue Line is finally getting it’s extension. And for the record I don’t think REM de L’Est isn’t dead just yet. I’m willing to bet that the proposal will surface again once REM gets going and people get used to its presence.
To be honnest REM de l'Est wasn't well designed. It was partly redundant with the Green line and didn't even serve the most densely populated parts of the city. The Pointe-aux-Trembles branch could easily be downgraded to a light rail. As for the Montréal Nord branch, the Pink line schem seemed more interesting because it offered a more direct service to the city centre.
@@unlapras9365 the service wasn’t redundant as it had less stations and served a different corridor. Having multiple parallel transit services is fine as long as you don’t have an identical, stopping pattern.
@@RMTransit Parallel service patterns are fine in cities with a very dense network, which is not Montreal's case. It wouldn't have been very cost-effective to express the Green line when you could rather serve densely populated areas which currently don't have good transit. I do support REM de l'Est or any kind of east-west line, but I think it should have a more northernly route running through the Plateau neighbourhood. And precisely, I think pressure groups are currently supporting a new route via Sherbrook and Saint Laurent rather than boulevard René-Lévesque Lévesque. I would love to hear your opinion on this alternative route.
@@unlapras9365 by that logic the blue line extension is useless since it goes in the same direction as the green line
@@samuelcharlebois881 Both lines are several miles away it's not the same situation.
The problem is that automating lines means that lots of people lose their jobs. Unions tend to (rightly) be annoyed at people who try to eliminate the jobs of their members.
That may be a valid point. I was in Boston and I was surprised to see that on the green line, each car has an employee at the front opening/closing the door of the car! I have never seen this before!
That’s not true! There are so many different options that don’t require tons of job losses - but people just assume that’s a requirement
Paris also has a strong union culture. We managed that by finding former subway drivers new jobs, for instance controllers at the control centre or tramway drivers (because we are opening tramway lines at the same time).
@@RMTransit I mean, when you're actively removing the job the individual does, the usual pattern is that they lose their job, because whatever new jobs are created require a different skill set, and it's usually cheaper/easier/whatever for the employer to hire someone who already has those skills rather than training up the existing employees in the new role (if said employees are even suitable to the new job and willing to undergo the training to change jobs). Further, if you're not actually reducing the number of employees or their wages... automation isn't actually saving you money. Because automation saves money pretty much Entirely by eliminating workers, and thus their wages (and when it's not direclty by eliminating workers, it's by reducing errors... by replacing human workers... huh).
Mind you, you can gain benefits from automation without it replacing human workers, but that rarely, if ever, reduces costs so much as increasing income (by way of allowing new tasks to be performed or accelerating existing tasks). Except in practice that doesn't happen, as the extra output per worker is used to lay off a portion of the workers, maintaining the same (or only slighlty increased) output at lower costs.
Automation universally costs jobs. Most of the time it also results in the creation of some (and, over time, through knock on effects, often as many or more) jobs as well, but they are generally Different jobs for people with different skill sets. Often requiring a higher standard of education, too (which costs money).
Given that a union's job is primarily to protect the interests of its Current members, not hypothetical individuals who are Not members, even the most reasonable, functional, non-corrupt union is generally going to oppose any automation unless it will result in significant improvements in working conditions (usually by way of eliminating a major cause of workplace injury or the like) for very few, or no, job losses.
As mentioned above its very much normal, to give drivers other jobs in the organization, which they have experience to do because they have been working in it. Montreal has other metro lines and other work needed to be done.
Awesome article, but it's been a long time since Montreal was the second largest French speaking city in the world; it is in fact now #10 behind Kinshasa
Paris, Abidjan, Yaoundé, Casablanca, Bamako, Ouagadougou, Algiers, Dakar and then Montreal. 😊
Yeah, I sort of wondered it’s something I still hear people say, but I sort of imagined the days of that may have passed
@@RMTransit You still hear it all the time in Montreal, but it is a really outdated statistic. 🙂
Isn't Kinshasa Lingala? I think Abidjan is actually french Speaking but a lot of those just have a lot of french speakers and a more dominant local language. Nobody says that delhi is the worlds biggest english speaking city.
@@jandron94 If I have stirred up a hornet's nest I apologize, but it could be pointed out also that it's closer to sixty percent of the population of Montreal that cite French as their first official language spoken. People are questioning the number of people in these other Francophone cities who speak French, but it should be acknowledged that there are many other first tongues in Montreal because it is a modern multicultural city in Canada.. All in all, in my opinion it's an old statistic that really needs to be put out to pasture.
@@jandron94 Hey man that's cool. I know you're not supporting the "second-largest" statistic, and at least now people are starting to discuss it. I'm a firm believer that every once in awhile we should re-examine the statistics and stereotypes we have about our cities. Things change over the decades!
As someone who uses the STM and STL i am concerned about their wants to cut costs and cut back on services... Would also be nice if stoppages were less frequent, as if preventing that and deaths isnt a good reason to add the doors. When an accident occurs on a dangerous exit on a highway the exit was changed immediately yet many people can be hurt or die on the Metro tunnel without so much as a proposition to add barricades or doors.
I've lived in Montreal my entire life. And, I'm older than that Montreal metro system! I like your ideas. But, never underestimate Montreal's ability to step over dollars to pick up pennies! And, never forget Montreal's deep love of kick backs! There is a reason why we paid for 5x the amount of concrete actually used to build the Olympic Stadium!
How dare you forget about our dearest endangered brown snake (couleuvre brune)😅
Fantastic video as always chief! I live in Budapest and we build a brand new, automated metro in 2014 and it got a tonne of criticism at the time for the initial cost but actually now the operating costs per passenger km are like half of even our busiest tram/streetcar/light rail lines because of driverless operation. Trains run at 90 second intervals in the peak periods, travel 2x faster than the aforementioned on-street lines, are fully air-conditioned, fully accessible and so "normal" now that nobody bats an eyelid. Unsurprisingly it's mostly French, Alstom tech. I don't know why more more systems aren't rolling this out. Keep up the good work!
When I first arrived at Montreal I was shocked to see that there's no train to the airport, that the metro platforms don't have screen doors, that the metros and buses are so infrequent, that not all metro stations have accessibility elevators. After I stayed here for a few months I still don't understand why there are so few suburban trains. I just took those things for granted. The lack of public transit literally took my freedom away.
Sadly the answer if often political.
It’s really simple, the “West Island”, Dorval, Pointe Claire, Beaconsfield, are predominately English.
It’s pure and simple racism against the English. I live in West Island and 60% of my dollar goes towards Montreal tax’s.
The government has absolutely no problem whatsoever in investing into the eastern section the northern section or even the southern section of Montreal and its surroundings.
But, the West Island is, we can’t do that because it’s going to be impossible.
I can count on both of my hands how many $25 million studies have been initiated to assess the feasibility of extending the metro.
Btw I’m fully bilingual so I’m not some anglais.
@@nzs316 lmao ''racism'' against the anglophones, now that's a good one.
@@CaptainFordo21 All right then, how many governments do you know of that create laws and make it illegal to speak a language.
@@nzs316 So true , people do not want to believe the truth .
Timecodes:
0:00 - Why there is no platform screen doors?
05:20 - Why platform screen doors are good
09:17 - Paris has a platform screen doors
12:45 - How can you save money to install platform screen doors
13:00 - Plafrom screen doors
Obsession.
with platform screen doors installed
Crisis link would go Belly up
😂 he got his point across i think
In turin italy they are extending the only line we currently have, the project includes 4 stations, changing the signaling system and 6 new trains and it's doing it for less than 300ml€, the line is already automatized, but clearly with the extra 200ml$ montreal is spending that shouldn't be a problem to implement . . .
Yep, Italy is one of the most cost effective places for building transit
@@christophertweed5576 at the current conversion rate they still have about 100ml extra over the pricing i gave, that is still plenty to put automation
Paris here, the M4 is being automated. It’s currently mixing classic and driverless trains. They spent a lot of time installing the PSDs. Every night the century old platforms were reinforced with concrete. Then they started with the screen doors, in a clever way : every night a new short section was installed in the same direction as the trains (avoids trapping someone against the first section) and fully functional on the morning. After few weeks, the whole platform was done, they would move to the next station etc.
The platforms aren't being redone, because they ordered the wrong size trains again, LOL! Just ribbing you. Paris is one of the most Beautiful and in my opinion Best designed City that I have visited.
never underestimate the power of unions getting very angry at the prospect of people losing their jobs, even if it’s overall beneficial to the system; also, installing platform screen doors after CBTC has been implemented is not surprising, São Paulo does this all the time
Yes, but a large part of the video is that Montreal is spending enough to do everything but only getting the signalling. And people don’t need to lose their jobs, this has been dealt with and many other cities, but people can be moved to other lines and given other jobs if they prefer
@@RMTransit Everyone knows that people don't need to lose jobs due to automation... except the unions. Look at London. The New Tube for London is designed to be automated in the future, the only thing stopping it from being automated is the unions.
I know that pain, reminds me how my home town spent 10 billion for 10 km of track in the metro and then almost everybody involved was arrested... I agree, weird stuff is going on with these contracts, 100%
@@MrUltrAdaman Tube lines can't be unstaffed because evacuating them is very complicated so might as well make that staff member drive the train.
This. Reese, you do great work, but there's one glaring hole: You never grapple with labor/management issues. How about a video on how RATP was able to automate Line 1 from an organizational perspective? It's FRANCE, I'd love to know what that looked like.
Anyone else find it satisfying watching the first second of this video over and over again?
I commend you for your thorough research, you are well informed. The REM is a surface metro, so it's normal that it's cheaper. Also, one problematic and neglected aspect of the blue line extension is that additional load that it will bring to the already saturated orange line.
Also, the platform screen doors are complex to retrofit, as for many stations, the nightly 4h maintenance bring machinery which couldn't be done as easily. If you plan a new station to have those doors, you can also plan access shafts to ensure easier maintenance.
The Montreal Metro is one of my favourites. I make a point of using it when I travel to Montreal, even if I don't need too. :)
Yes, it is a beautiful system
I love it but I got cheesed seeing they were all rubber-tired trains. So much maintenance costs, but the ride is smooth 🤣🤣
It was way easier than talking a car. Absolute lifesaver
I am a big fan of the Montréal metro and the STM, so it pains me to say this: I agree with everything you said in this video. Although I might understand why platform screen doors aren't installed on the blue line since the MR-73 trains are still good to go for perhaps 10 more years. Nevertheless, the STM is able to (and should) do better. I think that their projects are good, but there is often this feeling of not doing things all the way. I blame the lack of money, but sensible choices are still needed.
I don’t think it’s a lack of money when the amount spent on various projects is so excessive
Are there many injuries by not having platform doors ? I think there are simply not enough victims for this investment.
Having driverless trains is not really an urge.
@@RMTransit Again, I agree with you. I should probably have said that the opaque way money is distributed to cities and transport societies in Québec is to be changed. Excellence should be aimed at. Not mediocrity.
@@holger_p Can't speak for Montreal, but London has dozens of suicide attempts (most of them successful, sadly) on the Underground every year.
And platform screen doors make the trains more reliable and improve comfort in the stations.
In Paris we also have line 4 (1908) that is getting its automation finished this year, another historic line that goes through a lot of touristic sites, and this was done with 256 millions € including the stations renovation. Also, the busy line 13 (1911) is planned to be automated by 2035... (It already has platform screen doors though). Not to mention that most of the automation was done at night while the line doesn't open... Tbh, I think that IDFM and RATP choice to automate those lines was at first made to face the strikes not so much to add some trains per hour. But we can clearly see a lack of ambition with Montréal not chosing to automate this line... Automated trains system are good ! Here in Rennes, France, line b of the metro opened in september 2022 and we now have two metro lines with a 99% regularity rate... For a city of only 215 000.
Line 13's platform screen doors need to be changed soon because the new trains don't have a similar door layout. Otherwise great comment
Automation brings much more benefits than just "avoiding strikes" (as maintenance and line regulators can also strike).
Reliability, flexibility, reduced costs...but I think RMTransit already did a video about this.
The RATP (and not the STIF/IDFM) did not automate line 4 for the strikes, but because line 4 is the second in terms of attendance and on the verge of an explosion (more than 160 million passengers planned for 2023) not to mention the problems, such people on the tracks, especially on the north side.
it was necessary, to allow more trains per hour, to tighten the frequencies to 85s between each train .... And only a GOA4 type automation allows it.
@@Lodai974 One thing though, RATP already manages 85 sec headways on line 13, without GOA4.
It's one reason why the automation of this line, despite its symbolical nature, was not a sure thing.
@@MSTS33 No it's "ouragan" system, a cbtc that allows a minimum of 85s.
And yes I agree with you, the automation of the 13 will not bring anything more.
What the 13 needs, is a parallel heavy metro line
If you think the current STM metro can be automated, you clearly don't understand how influential and unbending the STM union is.
Very interesting points you're making. I never thought of platform screen doors as cost savers, maybe because here in Switzerland (and in Germany) they are virtually non-existent.
I always thought, it would be nice to have them because then, you could close overground metro stations with windows and protect waiting passengers from cold winds in winter.
Same here in Tokyo. They installed them on the Shinkansen, but when the Olympics was coming they started installing them at popular stations here. The reasoning however was that with the influx of many tourists (foreigners) they were afraid someone would fall on tracks.
@@rabbit251 Safety is actually a very good reason, but as you especially mention foreigners: Do Japanese think, we're too dumb to wait on a platform until a train has arrived? We've got trains, too, and know better than to jump on the tracks.
@@mina_en_suiza Yes, that is exactly what Japan thinks.
Another example, Japan doesn't have any emergency law requiring anyone to wear a mask, unless you are a foreign tourist. When Japan first opened back up after the pandemic, foreigners could come in ONLY if they were with a tour group which was responsible for making sure the tourists complied with rules like wearing a mask. That has since expired, but it shows the mindset of Japan.
Personally, I think the government wanted to force the railroads to install the barriers, foreigners were just an easy excuse. But it is how things work here and how things get done.
@@mina_en_suiza As someone who lives in the United States, I have to say you'd be surprised. Although most of the really stupid people seem to live in places that don't have much public transit, they do occasionally visit the places that do. (And somewhere on UA-cam is a video of an Amtrak train having to make an emergency stop due to idiots swarming out onto the station tracks; fortunately, Amtrak trains apparently have brakes that are a LOT better than those of freight trains.)
@@rabbit251 I admire Japan for many things, but racism seems to be very much engrained into the social fabric, as I hear again and again.
One reason they may not be able to add ATC right now is the company that supplied the skytrain ATC has stopped offering the current version of this product and the replacement isn't ready yet. If you're skytrain maybe you're willing to order trains with an atc system that doesn't exist yet, but I can see why Montreal wouldn't.
I’m not sure what you’re saying, they are already ordering a new signalling system
Many, many companies could install ATC tech as currently used in Montreal - but if you're gonna install things, you might as well go with the latest and best proven technology (CBTC)!
ATC systems seem to be quite interchangeable, you definitely don't need to rely on Thales. Alstom, for example, offers a CBTC system, and one of the SkyTrain-type systems in service (using Bombardier Innovia trains) used this Alstom CBTC (*prior to the Alstom takeover of Bombardier) instead of SELTRAC, while another Innovia system adopted Bombardier's in-house CITYFLO system. The same train model could adapt to at least 3 different CBTC offerings from different companies.
@@JamesScantlebury even older non CBTC systems like SACEM or TBL based signaling can do ATO, so I really don't see why they don't just add ATC already
"So come along with me as I get irrationally angry about trains." Me when I talk about anything to do with public transport.
As a Montrealer this was a good video, I wish we could be better lol
Your videos are getting so much better! Congrats! Good job 🎉
STM underground parking for buses and trains is crazy stupid, but upgrades to Blue line are good start. ReM De Lest needs a lot of better planning, and less NIMBY interference
The bad planning of REM de l'Est was due to NIMBY interference.
The upgrades are necessary, but far more expensive than they should be
The problem with the REM L’Est wasn’t the plans but the alignment all the way to Pointe-aux-Trembles.
Placing an elevated structure along Sherbrooke St East isn’t going to fly because of the elevated structure and the aesthetics associated with it.
It would’ve been better to just use the current ROW along the St Lawrence River that to build above Sherbrooke, and it would’ve cost a lot less but the transit developers shot them selves in the foot by planning to build an elevated structure w/ little to no community input from the residents of the eastern portions of Montreal.
I'm from Santiago, but live in Toronto, and love visiting Montreal. I'm amazed at how Santiago has been able to build 4 new highways inside the city (including one that runs directly below the main river), and 5 new subway lines in the last 25 years. But then, Montreal and Toronto did something similar some 2-3 decades earlier; but not anymore. It's not about money, it's simply about political will, and the will to make it cost-conscious and affordable.
At the same time I also noticed that when Singapore managed to pull off its steepest public transport fare hike in 20 yrs (7% in late 2019; then repeated in late 2023), Santiago announcing a fare hike at the same time sparked riots instead. Am thinking how different the situation is between these 2 cities
Great video as always. I have learnt a few points: efficiency, practicality, and reliability are essential for good transit.
I feel that part of the issue is that the city doesn't want to cut jobs with automation. Also, it's hard to believe that there is still no way to buy a ticket on your phone and use RFID to scan.
I would so support the idea of screen doors for STM and the lives that can potentially save! Back in 2019, I was at Snowdon station when I saw a guy tip-toeing at the edge of the platform, it was so incredibly uncomfortable to look, I tried to get his attention a few times to which he fully ignored and so I pulled him over to a bench with zero effort like holding cardboard paper, it was both surprising and terrifying! He was very zoned out in his mind and suicidal. When some security guards came, they thought I was the crazy one and questioned the lack of evidence to prove that he was truly going to jump over to the upcoming train. Maybe we'd never know until after the fact these people truly jumped? Screen doors across STM could improve safety/preventive measures! Improving what's already in service.
For all the STM operations, the city of Montreal is working exclusively with the Canadian subsidiary of Alstom. Alstom is a French company. Since there is virtually no competition for these bids, Alstom just gouges them.
Moving-block (this is a much better term for what you're talking about) signalling is a much more significant upgrade than platform screen doors though.
They can add automation, the complicated part of automation is the moving block signal system anyway.
CBTC is not just moving block. The virtual blocks also change size according to speed and distance needed to break.
You missed the entire point of the video. Yes, moving block signalling is the complicated part of automation. So why aren't they doing the remaining bits? Why can't they get all the way there? They would have massively more benefit with very little added effort, but they aren't doing it.
You say "They can add automation", but they can't actually. Not without compatible rolling stock, and not without a solution to deal with the potential of people falling onto the tracks. Neither of which they're investing in, even though it would be so little added cost to invest in them now. And if they don't invest in them now, the cost will be much higher in the future. This is a huge missed opportunity.
@@danielamir452 Why do you even need platform screen doors? They are hidious obstacle in otherwise spacy station, especially with tracks in the middle. You guys need to be herded like farm animals with fences all around?
Even your stations without them has much cleaner design then those where people look like fishes in a huge tank to be observable from a central tourist tunnel
@@siriusczech plenty of cities do them without them being unattractive. And it’s an important safety feature.
@@siriusczech ??
The title should be "i love doors in the subways"
Automated with high frequency just makes so much sense nowadays. Maybe North American cities just need to contract directly with Eurasian companies, to get stuff done properly and at a reasonable cost. The UK seemed to have a problem with spending tens of billions for rail improvement projects that only lasted a few years before the trails were bad again. While the Netherlands and Switzerland seemed to have silky smooth, efficient, reliable, affordable trains, for seemingly less government money.
I think Reece likes platform screen doors. LOL. In London the Jubilee Line Extension had them added but they didn't retrofit them to the older parts of the line, so I'm wondering if Montreal has considered that? I don't think it's the best solution, but it's better than not adding any at all. I'm not sure why they left them out of the Northern Line Extension. Maybe they didn't feel it was worth it for just 2 stations because they would have needed to upgrade the trains and probably signalling along the whole line (which I believe they did do for the JLE).
Interesting video. Thank you for sharing your insights!
starting a video with "I'm sorry" was so Canadian 😂
Don't forget the STM transit cutbacks they announced for this year. They say ridership is still just 70% of pre-pandemic levels. Shorter peak service periods, longer headways for the metro (ie orange line will be 2-mintes longer per train during peak hours, and greater reductions in off-peak hours).
this is where automation can help as frequency won’t depend on staffing
The $500 million price tag on this project was really eye popping when I read it yesterday
Great one, will definitely try someday. 🤓👍🏾
You should go to Chicago and take the train from O'Hare to the city. Wildest roller coaster I've been on.
Would love a video on the specifics of how operating costs work for transit. I understand it's cheaper to operate automated metros but how much cheaper. And how long would it take to make up the extra up front cost for various upgrades.
Why do you need platform screens?
@@anitamarcotte1382 The main cause of interruptions is objects that fall in the tracks, and often people who try to recover them (phones especially).
The STM has wanted (at least from a financial standpoint) to automate the network for years. Growing up in Montreal I learned that unions can go a long way to slow down and outright prevent modernization.
All this to say, the main reason the STM will remain the way it is for years is because it cannot make decisions that impact their staff in any major way.
Love your content bro,
I'm from the city that pioneered platform screen doors (but where they did not really catch on): Saint-Petersburg. Leningrad was the first city in the world to use platform screen doors and it was a cost-saving measure to cheapen construction. It was dropped because it was decided that the increased maintenance costs are not worth it, new ones were only added to new stations near the football stadium. Incidents because of it are exceptionally rare. Also, Moscow and Saint-Petersburg have some of the most frequent trains in the world (the interval at rush hour is around a minute, sometimes even less) and the Moscow Metro has the best on-time performance in the world without either fully automated operation (we have a form of automated train control though, named ALS-ARS (standing for Automatic Locomotive Signaling with Automatic Regulation of Speed) that allows to have only 1 engineer on board instead of 2) or platform screen doors.
You forgot to mention Quebec's problem with organized crime and corruption. I agree that barriers and automation should be done first. Now that the TTC Yonge line has upgraded signals I do see an improvement in frequency, but it comes crashing down with someone on track or a security issue. I know someone from the TTC and the person says a lot of these don't get reported officially. Adding the barriers and improving response times for security incidents will improve the system drastically. I don't know about Montreal but Toronto is getting more mentally unstabled incidents and punk kids attacking operators and crew.
Sounds like the (north) American Cost Snake bit Montréal
No one is safe
You’d be correct!
Corruption, the mob and construction were at the heart of 76 Olympic cost overruns and the Charbonneau commission just a few years ago showed how the mafia and others like politicians are still running the same scams and how connected construction companies are. These companies after all the revelations kept getting governments contract.
Hi. French here.
I'm sorry to see that despite using the same trains and track design as M1 and M14, they're not upgrading your stuff with our off-the-shelve hardware. That is plainly stupid.
Wow! So clean!😊🌞
Paris Region authorities switched from line to automate next after line 4, Line 13 will be done instead of Line 11 that was prepared with its extension to recieve automation, with new trains and refurbished platforms ready to add platform Screen doors... Instead Line 13 will have to be remade entirely (platform screen doors installed on Line 13 were prototypes, platforms were not properly refurbished and thus, a true automation will require demolishing those doors and replace them with Line 4 type ones, and thus require to remake most of the platforms... And change the rolling stocj to a new one because the 40 yo MF77 won't be able to be automated, obviously.
The good and the bad.
Bad decision was to interrupt Line 11 automation roughtly just at project beginning, good decision, standardize the system on Line 13 despite the preliminary doors already installed AND buy new trains that were necessary in the first place for the lines that still run old 1960s and 70s stocks.
That being said what was done on Line 11 wlll remain and make the line's automation more easily possible in the future and to be fair, that wasn't the most essential line to automate in the first place, since the second extension to Noisy (to the Grand Paris Express section) was pushed back (despite local alites trying to relaunch the project recently).
Line 13 is desperatly needing some love... but automating it will be the easy way to try to solve its problems. The main problem of the branches cuting in half its capacity beyond the common trunk remains... And yet, authorities still don't want to get rid of the problem, making it cost more and more each time they push it away...
And truly, the network has so many other bigger problems, especially in the RER that money not being magically created, limits the possbilities so to speak...
At least we don't stay on old signalling standards when getting an extension.
Montreal seems to think like Paris did in the 50s... or even the 30s. Old already obsolete metro designs were still made back then just to be compatible with preexisting stock.
Paris Line 10 is overhauling its power supply for new signalling systems and new trains to prepare for the possible extension to the East and to welcome the new MF-19 stock in a few years anyway.
BTW, the MF-19 will be the new version of the MF-01 and built as to be turned into automated trains easily as the MP-14 was.
Honestly it looks more like a Yamanote line train than a Paris metro, but whatever... May be we will have longitudinal seating on Line 13???
Anyway, the main goal in such operations should be 'kill two birds with one stone'. Pay a lot for a multiple faced project to solve all problems at once.
As for Platform Screendoors, after the cabling is done and the platform reinforcement is done, doors are modules, so one set of doors and side panels with their electrical set are brang by a workshop train and installed one at a time, with one or two per platform every night. So a Line 1 or 4 station is done in approximately two weeks (they don't work on weekend nights, so 5 nights a week). If you do one station at a time, equipment of 29 stations will take a little more than a year. The longer part is unseen by passengers, it's the cable installation of the whole track from one end of the line to the other... it takes at least a year, if not more without closing the line earlier on some nights.
Paris had to close the lines in works two hours earlier 5 nights a week for two years. (first stations take longer for the crews to get used to the procedure and make all the necessary checks before going further, at the end they even could install three doors on borh platforms in the same night, the record was a station completed in 7 nights.
If properly done and crews properly trained, the work can go very fast.
As an ex-Montrealer I can attest that a fair amount of subway stations don't have elevator access from the street level. YUP.
Honestly, as a student studying here who normally lives in Vancouver, the lack of lifts in the Montréal Metro, supported by the fact that I do rely quite a bit on transit & occasionally have to lug heavy weights, irritates me like nothing else. The Vancouver SkyTrain is a much better rider experience as a whole just for that count
I use a wheelchair and this always screams to me that I’m not welcome. Lifts being out of the way or round 20 corners, often unavoidable in retrofitting, can be annoying but at least I’m allowed access to the platforms and trains!
@MarkLinJA Yes, I hear ya. Imagine also the disabled that can't get around I.e. go to their medical appointments. Also tourists with luggage would need an elevator!!
@@kaitlyn__L I can seriously empathize with that as well. In this case, I think of my grandma who can’t climb a lot stairs because of a knee surgery (which sometimes can be a bit of a problem, seeing that her side of my family is from HK, which can get pretty hilly) and I doubt she’d feel very welcome here either. This is of course in stark contrast to whenever she’d visit me in Vancouver where she actually was able to get around fine despite her knee problems in no small part due to accessibility in transit
@@Nature_with_Peter_Kane at least the REM would have that, but I’d be long graduated before I see it unfortunately
I love your videos, i am watching it from Taipei where they have screen doors everywhere and automated metros. I hope Montreal will eventually follow the same path. Sadly i ll be back in a week, i ll miss this outstanding system until the REM will be running. Thanks for your thorough work!
Great video! I definitely agree about the gold-plated projects approach of the STM. It is, in many ways, a very old school organization that has grown accustomed to working with Montreal's notoriously corrupt engineering and construction firms. Somebody's uncle always needs to gets paid or the project gets cancelled...
A couple minor quibbles:
- the Blue line extension will probably serve as many passengers as the entire REM system. The East end of Montreal is quite densely populated, has some of the lowest car ownership neighborhoods, and runs through low income areas where transit is a necessity. The REM serves mostly low density, high car ownership, relatively affluent suburban areas. Both projects are great though, and will reinforce ridership in tandem at the Edouard-Montpetit transfer station. Prior to that transfer, the Blue line was an incomplete project that has been essentially shelved since the 1980s.
-I suspect the reason the STM doesn't push for more automation has to do with the transit workers unions. These unions generally push back quite hard against any form of automation, which is understandable. While labor is one of the biggest operating costs of any network, I'm not sure it's the best place to tighten the belt.
-Finally, the budget cuts to the STM come from a really lousy provincial government. The STM lost a bunch of ridership during COVID, and the current administration has basically told them to cut service and balance the budget. The cuts will undermine the system as a whole and push people towards car ownership. If it were up to Legault, they'd cancel the Blue Line altogether and graft on some dirt cheap, privately built LRT. The sooner that man is out, the better.
Could you please do an update on Calgary transit especially in regards to the Green Line I believe it's called that is being constructed I heard a portion of it is a subway? I would love to learn more about Calgary transit and how it all intertwines and what the future holds. Thank you
Comment from a French guy here, I think it is quite a wate (not preparing the line for better transit). Because from what I understand the North of Montreal is lacking transit options. And this new one will likely make lots of people use the line so why not making it truly ready to carry these people ?
In Paris we spent most of our money catching up, because our transit often got overused in comparison to what it was built for. That's what the Grand Paris Express was thought for, Montreal should really look to what is being done elsewhere to do even better.
The only northern Montréal arrondissement that has lacking much transit is RDP which is a long track totally at the eastern tip of island which is isolated. Montréal nord and Ahuntsic which are middle parts of Montreal are fine. But the blue line does nothing for those two boroughs, even less for RDP. If theyd extended the blue line to there and then off the island like they did with other lines, RDP might get something but it's got a sparse population and is surrounded by empty land and industrial neighborhoods and old refineries. They have a few buses that do the long routes and also a few special express bus at rush hours that go from RDP to highway to Radisson metro to go downtown. That's really the best they'll ever have.
It should be pointed out that originally, back in the late 1960s, a western extension of the Blue Line (beyond Snowdon station) was planned but - due to local opposition very close to where I live and grew up - never saw the light of day.
Expensive subway extensions? See 2nd Avenue in NYC. The cost per station is insane because they are unnecessarily digging far down, and putting in full length mezzanines just to cut down on the noise and vibrations at street level… that makes no sense since it’s New York, not a quiet farm in the middle of nowhere!
Edit: until phase 3, it’s not a “new line” it’s just extending the Q train uptown.
Yep I’ve discussed this in other videos!
“….the problems that North American and Canadian cities faces.” So Canada is not in North America!?!?!?
The rest of the video I fully approved of the video!
can't think of what to say here
but hello & good morning from vancouver reece
Great presentation. Your speaking style is very professional, as is the video.
I live in Lausanne (Switzerland) and we have a little automated metro with platform screen doors here. The city is 160 thousands people and we have it since 2008.
To be fair that's the only metro in Switzerland because we prefer to make train and tram lines instead but it's funny to point out that it was made in this little city long before any canadian city has an automated metro line.
This automated metro is based on the RATP Paris system (MP89 CA) which exists since 1956 (rubber tyre wheel) and 1998 (automated rubber tyre metro)
I don't understand platform screen doors or why they would be so important. It just seems like a waste of money, adding more parts that can fail and thus should be maintained, while not adding too much to the travel experience. The only upside I see is the aforementioned inclusion of structural elements in newly built station, which, since many metro stations have been built over the years without the need for those structural elements, is not that big of an upside. Also, they are ugly in my opinion.
The only station where platform screen doors would be useful in Montreal is the main hub of Berri-UQAM, the transfer point for 3 of the 4 lines of the system. Montreal metro use doesn't warrant platform screen doors anywhere else.
I felt this way for a really long time. It turns out they save a ton of energy in both heating/cooling the station platform but also improve train acceleration/braking due to no longer spending the energy buffeting the platform passengers. The systems for aligning the train to the doors also helps improve reliability for boarding and disembarking which is minor but builds-up.
That’s besides the various safety improvements which some people feel are marginal if you’re sensible.
If you have a driverless fully automated system, then you need the platform screen doors to prevent accidents as there will be no one, watching out for people, getting stuck in doors, falling between the train and the platform, or jumping down on the tracks to grab their mobile phone that they just dropped.
@@AlphaGeekgirl I address this in the video but that’s not the case
Platform screen doors are a massive safety improvement and also make operations faster so they have lots of reason to be installed
How far into development is this upgrade by now? Is it already a fixed plan or can it still change to include automation and platform-screen doors with enough public pressure?
Unclear but CBTC would still be required!
@@RMTransit Funds were just announced. It is still at the tender offer (appel d'offre in french) So Quebec, City of Montreal and STM has listed what they want, now private company can show their intent.
STM doesn't do things for the "M" of STM, it makes things for the "ST" part of STM.
Montreal's Metro has always been "freakishly fast" even compared to the most modern CBTC-equipped subway systems. Their trains rapidly accelerate and hit 45 mph almost everywhere on the network. With 90-second to 3-minute headways, Montreal's Metro can match the line capacity and boarding density of the multiple track A-train line on the New York Subway. With the exception of the yellow line, Montreal's trains had always been self-driving since the late 1970's: train operators simply close doors and press "start", which an unmanned system cannot do as fast as a human. The train operator is there to intervene and squeeze every last ounce of performance from a rubber-tired train in manual mode in case rail traffic control needs the train to run a series of the quickest interstation runs to catch up. Of course, metro efficiency is more a function of passenger behavior and loads rather than traffic control systems.
The NYC subway pillars and platform layout aren't uniform enough to use as structures for platform screen doors. In fact the pillars are obstacles to them. In fact most New Yorkers like the open layout. Automated NYC subways? That's is an idea that will occur sooner rather than later. You said that since these trains will have to be upgraded we should just move forward to....That's a huge assumption. What is the financial situation of the Montreal Metro? How much debt do they have? Are they constrained in how much they can borrow? These are really important issues for metro systems going forward. You're personalizing this issue too much.
The Olympic stadium still makes the news. The latest roof is an improvement, but shows cracks. It's always a question of "should I go or should I stay?" . Future-proofing base structure.
On Wikipedia it says "When works on the CBTC is complete on the Blue line, the STM announced that only the Azur (MPM-10) trains will operate on the entire Blue line" so assuming that's accurate that means there shouldn't be any issues involving automation or PSDs.
I think the main issue is the Montréal building companies are all corrupt. Projects are constantly delayed, and you'll probably see 6 people shouting stuff at pedestrians or on their phone while one guy is digging a hole.
I’m not sure if you’ve talked about it in another video, but can you explain why building transit costs so much more than any where else in the world? How in the world is this blue line extension one of the most expensive projects in the world??
Expropriation, soil type and corruption.
This is an area of active research as the exact reasons why transit costs so much more to build in north america aren't well understood but it's likely some combination of tunnels being deeper than they need to be, stations being overbuilt, insistence on using bore tunnelling over cut and cover, additional projects being tagged onto transit projects (road repavings, new sewer tunnels, etc.), and maybe the biggest one lack of insitutional knowledge (not much transit gets built here so we don't have many experts to rely on, also when transit does get built it's usually contracted out meaning the knowledge isn't accumulated). It may also be the case that governments here just budget too much for projects (likely because they have no frame of reference for what it should actually cost) and of course if you budget a certain amount it will all get used even if the project could have been done much cheaper.
I love your videos and you have a lot of rights in here. I need to correct you on the fact that Kinshasa is the biggest French-speaking city, Paris second Abidjan third and Montreal 4th.
reminds me of the 1976 olympics which left the city of Montreal with a massive debt that took 40 years to clear!
It took 30 years to clear as the debt was finally paid off in 2006.
The main reason for converting existing metro lines to automatic running is to enable more trains to be run, as it removes the human factor (human drivers do not behave exactly the same, so one train can slow down the next one).
Hey RM, great video! Fellow transit enthusiast & Montréaler here and I just wanted to say I think the main issue the STM has with installing platform screen doors right now is that the metro cars on the two different train generations has an inconsistent number of doors. For example, only new MPM-10 trains run on the Orange line with 3 doors per car but the Green line runs these along with the old MR-73 trains which have 4 doors per car. This might not be a big deal on the Blue line since it only runs the old trains but this is by design, the terminus (St. Michelle) platform on the far East side of the Blue line was never finished allowing only for a 6 car train due to the Blue line’s low traffic, this is said to be fixed with the new extension but either way installing platform screen doors and beams around them for 4 door trains might be a waste of money if when new Azur trains are bought they’ll all have to be re-done anyway. Just a thought. Love your videos.
I wonder if selective opening could work, like when trains stop at stations too short for them. Guess you need through-access for that to work though…
@@kaitlyn__L unfortunately the car doors on the old and new generation are in different places and are significantly different sizes. It would be a major handicap in building something that might only be usable for a decade or so. I think this starts with the extension, then new Azur trains will be bought for the rest of the STM network, and then maybe the STM considers rolling out platform screen doors of some kind across the network.
I address this in the video though?
@@RMTransit yes definitely, but the addendum I added is that St. Michelle station is not sized to even have the Azur trains run (even in a 6 car train the station is to small because the rest of the platform was never built). So this extension must go first to finish up that station (reduce costs) and then the STM would need to commit to buying another 1-2 billion worth of new trains to then put platform doors and maximize automation and frankly the money isn’t there. While I agree with your point that this seems silly to ask for money for service and then cut service, the money to do everything just isn’t there:(
You could always just do selective door opening
Being from the Netherlands, I never realized platform screen doors are common anywhere. We do not have them anywhere in NL as far as I know, not even on the "newly" opened North-South line of Amsterdam. I guess I have a new thing to complain about when it comes to Dutch public transport, thanks!
Yes, in Japan, even the high-speed trains have them!
Enjoy your videos. I’m in Paris if you ever need anything on the metro here
The STM is spending money on projects that might be necessary in terms of the float maintenance (knowing we have a lot of buses and it gets pretty complicated to it so during the winter time), but paradoxically these kind of projects have low impact and doesn't improve the client experience as they mentioned in their mission. As a Montrealer, I totally agree with your point of view, we are light years away from an automation of the metro lines compared to other developed countries.
Hi, do you think an Electrified Regional rail link between Seattle and Vancouver would make sense ? Similar to Amtrak and MARC between Baltimore and DC. Both cities have been investing a lot on local transit, but not much on regional rail. This corridor has densities similar to parts of Western Europe, so I think electrified regional rail could work.
I would even go with high-speed rail for that corridor...
It's one of the best case scenarios for HSR in North America.
You could have millions commuting with HSR every year between these cities and Portland plus a SeaTac airport intermodal station.
I remember the STM quoting something absolutely ridiculous to add platform doors a few years back, but don't remember the exact figure. Do you remember what is was? All I can recall is that I had a very similar reaction to Paige's lol
"The Société de transport de Montréal had estimated that equipping each station would cost between $10 and $15 million, so the $200 million would have paid for all 13 stations." This was for the Orange Line
@@bikesarebest sheeshkabab. Thanks!
The union rates on labor for city projects are extremely high. Which is why these public projects tend to have astronomical price tags
@@kb_100 France is also unionized, probably more so. And French work weeks are shorter at 35 hours I believe.
More examples for automatic lines without platform screen doors are the DLR in London and the subway in Nuremberg. If you have wide platforms, you really do not need them. It is sufficient to paint door zones on the ground to guide people.
Doors aren't only to guide people, in the video says to prevent "stoppages", caused by people getting too close and getting hit by the train, doesn't matter how wide the platform is
Automating lines would mean reducing work hours or jobs for the conductors...the Unions will NEVER let that happen.
They are changing to the Azur trains on the blue line (and going to 9 car trains by expanding Saint Michel platform). It was in STM press release. I don't know if that means they are buying a new batch of Azur trains or switching the current trains from other lines though.
Probably the Azur currently running on the Green line would be shunted to the blue line and the MR-73 shunted to the green line
Well, there you go another reason this would be less complicated
"Canada as a country could learn so much from francophones" 😪😪 thank u, i luv u
Anyone who is earnestly shocked by infrastructure cost overruns in Montreal hasn’t spent enough time in Montreal
At the very least, when extending a line, you design and build new stations and refurbish existing stations, you rough in the platform screen doors. This could mean putting the columns in the right place, putting in electrical boxes and running cables inside those columns, that when you do install the doors, it's simply fixing the doors in place and plugging them in. Something that you can train a station maintenance crew to do.
It is likely the project is so expensive because, it takes a lot of time to work within the time limits of a running line. Like the TTC the STM has limited hours for the metro. So you get a crew that has to work within 4 hours per day, it takes them an hour to setup to work, they then get 2 hours to work, before they need pack up and clear out for the line to open.
If you could shut the line down for a month, you could get all the work done by running 7/24 for that time.
Recent events in France also highlight another massive advantage of full automation - they're fully strike-proof! You can still get to work, visit friends or roam around even if employees are having a difference of opinion with their employer or with the government.
Which is one of the reasons North American transit unions try to block their installation (plus all the unionized jobs lost, of course).
@@Geotpf Hey, if the French can overcome their fearsome unions in the name of progress, anyone can!
In Lille during the 2019 strike the subway was shut done because controllers were on strike ! And yet it's a fully automated system. Of course controllers tend to be less unionized than drivers but if they stop working, you can't run your metro even if it's automated. There are always humans making the system work at some point.
Does the contract with the drivers union even allow STM to have driverless trains? Unless it does I can see them not wanting to spend money on something that can never be used. In Ottawa the Confederation Line doesn’t need drivers but OC is not allowed to have driverless vehicles due to the union.
The current trains already mostly drive themselves, just with monitoring from drivers. There are many solutions to a potential problem, and you can always reassign drivers to other lines.
Short-term thinking is rampant in Canada. Even in Vancouver. It takes three decades to plan and build a train line extension in a major suburb (Surrey) when the roads are chokehold clogged. It’s like they don’t expect the city to grow or exist in the next 20 years.
Love your critique; so spot on.
Thinking about your earlier commentary on how the most expensive cost to most transit agencies (I’d argue this is the most expensive cost to most businesses) is wages of their employees; I am wondering how much the cost of these large projects is because of two things:
1. Excessive workloads on the designing, retrofitting, and construction management WORKERS causing burnout of staff numbers and this leading staff to leave such projects (as well as inflexible work practices);
2. The cost of training, retraining, and training again all these new staff who only stick around for a few years (sometimes mere months) because they have such limited scope for negotiations to make their work-life balance better?
Are there not additional carrots (beyond pay packet increases) that can be offered to workers to stick around? Less work, a slightly lower pay packet, and more iterative feedback loops for workflow processes so that ‘chain of command’ bullshit (whereby more senior workers ‘push the poo down the hill’ when they make a mistake; forcing the lowly workers to take responsibility for the mistakes made by senior managers) can be caught out and bad managers get caught out. This would solve many workplaces frustrations experienced by lowly workers, and solve the high turnover cost. Also other carrots can be offered to incentivise workers to stick to it.
Video suggestion: Germany will introduce a nation-wide local+regional transport ticket (Bus, Tram, Tube and Train) for 49 Euros ($50) a month starting this May. Austria already has something similar. Would be great to have an international perspective on it once it's up and running.
The 49 Euro Ticket will be a monthly subscription.
The video neglects to mention a key reason why public transit projects are much more expensive in Montreal than in Paris (France, not Ontario). This is Montreal's culture of corruption. This ranges from the crony corruption of political insiders getting "consulting" contracts for doing... nothing... to organized crime gangs infiltrating the labour unions. Corruption costs money and that is why projects are so much more expensive in Quebec than in France.
The cost are same with several American and Canadian city theire a reason on tht . I'm not surprised with corruption, but I would like to get more explanation on your claim because you mentioning organized crime on unions is out of reach
I completely agree with your logical answer. It would not only be cost effective to build doors, it would prevent more suicides and objects from stopping the metro and making people get to work/school late.
Safety and violence on the TTC would make a good episode.
I am not sure that you are right. These sort of things are complicated issues. Sometimes less ambitious goals, like just only trying for CBTC, are better, because they get done. Higher goals make projects more likely to never get done.
So let's always aim lower and lower so that we can be sure to get it ?
And let the costs balloon without opposition by the way...
It should be the exact opposite : pressure for always more and new ways to optimize the cost to get more and better.
Paris managed to get their century old M4 line fully automated with platform screen doors without closing the line during the day at a reasonable cost while massively extending lines M11 East, M14 North and South and RER E West plus building the Grand Paris Express, all simultaneously.
The only thing that they cut on was the full automation (with PSD's) of M11 as it was deemed to be the least urgent.
But they prepared all stations, old and new, for future installation of PSD's on M11 and got new manned trains (MP14 CC) that can be converted to full driverless operations by the switch of a button (pilot cabins are removable).
So why not do like Paris? Aim for more and better, save on scale and commonality and go for it, only sparing what can wait a bit while still preparing for it so that no one could oppose it later.
Paris' choice for M11 of going for PSD ready stations and automated trains with a driver option (instead of manned trains with an automated option) makes the likelyhood of getting PSD's and fully automated train operations only a question of "when" and no longer of "if".
The new M11 essentially being an automated line with partly manned operations until the platform screen doors are built.
Just like France or Spain did with their high-speed lines : many recent stretches end with 2 exit ramps to the regular speed network and a high-speed stub / dead end that screams to be continued on.
That's how you prepare for the future.
STM or TTC or their respective government oversight agencies should do like IDFM and Île-de-France region did with a recent huge order for new trains : be super hard bargaining, almost vicious.
IDFM / the region selected the Bombardier offer, cheaper than the Alstom one, knowing Alstom would takeover Bombardier. Alstom wanted to break the contract, supposedly for it being too cheap but IDFM / region threatened to sue them if they didn't comply with the market offer proposition Bombardier signed.
Alstom had to agree and the region / IDFM ended up having the Alstom / Bombardier trains for the price of Bombardier's bargain.
IDFM / IdF region don't hesitate to threaten their manufacturers or providers with massive penalties and legal action for every delay, price, etc.
Contractors should no longer make their bread, butter and caviar from public money.
One other point : aiming low, costs more to get less.
When a transit agency orders a massive expansion with new trains, new systems, new stations, tunnels and viaducts, PSD's... They have a bigger and stronger bargaining power, and could get more for a lower cost.
So I'm wondering why the REM and STM's plan for the blue line's extension weren't somehow bundled to get better prices.
As a Montrealer, I am not a fan of those platform doors. They look ugly and kind of cuts the stations in half in a way that would make it lose the open-space aesthetics that we have now. It's admittedly a petty reason, and I am sure that it would also make the metros safer in general.
I also love the fact that when I part ways with a friend taking the metro in opposite directions, we can still talk to each other to some extent. I could be convinced otherwise, but I think the focus on platform doors in this video might be out of touch with what Montrealers might want from their metro system.
Thats a good point in station architecture, it doesn't come up in Toronto where stations are gross but it would be a shame to cut yours in half.
They provide better safety, and a faster more reliable system. I think that’s something that makes a lot of sense!
platform screen doors are right at the edge of the platform (you're losing maybe a few CM compared to when the train is stopped without them, though yes, the entire track width when there's no train present), and open and close basically when the train doors do, so I'm not really sure what you're trying to describe there.
Look at the Osaka doors (4:22) or Paris (6:24), they can integrate quite well. As an aisde, I have friends who saw a suicide on the metro years ago and are still nervous whenever metros pull in to a station, I know they would all be happy to have platform doors and I'm sure they're not the only ones. I think most Montrealers would easily sacrifice those few times where they yell to their friends for fewer disruptions and better service.
@@bikesarebest the Osaka doors actually look pretty nice, I wouldn't mind a shorter one like that.
the coincidence that this vid comes out the weekend after I visit Montreal.
You missed something here that's probably the most important reason for the costs here in Montreal. The graft! It's the reason projects cost more in Quebec and that's because all the construction companies are in on it. They make money hand over fist and they're not interested in innovating unless it makes THEM money. They don't care if the transit authority or the City makes more money or saves a bunch because it means nothing to them. Want a perfect example? A little while back some researchers here in Montreal came up with a new form of asphalt that is stronger and more durable. Construction companies here want nothing to do with it because it means less work even though that mentality is wrong because if you build something really well and it lasts we can move on to more and better projects instead of constantly spending on the same one. (see old Turcot interchange, Old Champlain bridge, Mercier bridge ect)