I didn't realize we were specifically supposed to be holding in the center or bottom of the hilt. I naturally gravitated towards wanting to hold as high as I could since I don't remember it being specified in your book on it.
So, the only major work on PL-saber in English as far as I have seen is Richard Marsden's "Polish Saber - the use of the Polish Saber in the 17th Century" (2015); it makes for an interesting read, although corroboration of parts is difficult.
@@raymondsosnowski9717 The Seniawski files put out an article saying "here's our source setup," which I found reasonable. The only place where I have a problem with it is in the bad tempo often shown in The cutting drills. But that said, reenactment fencing is very different from sport fencing and screwing around with a sword becomes a very different affair when you only have a square meter or two to play with rather than an established dueling area. If you have ever done fencing with your 20 closest friends, you know what I'm talking about.
Regarding the momentum in Italian sabre: iirc Radaelli's students had a reputation for both winning tournaments and inflicting a lot of bruises during them
Massive generalisation ahead: French sabre manoeuvres the blade around the adverse blade to land on the target and then pushes or pulls to cut (“comme un scie” lit. like a saw). Chopping (“coups brise”) is used as a secondary option for attacks but mostly for direct ripostes, but still expected to attempt a push or pull on contact if possible. Cavalry manuals introduce the long, slashing “coup de sabre”, probably as more useful in the brief period of contact between mounted and moving opponents, relative to foot combat.
Well, to be fair, the putting the thumb on the grip thing was really popular in the 19th century, and olympic fencing is at least partially a direct descendant of italian duelling sabre, being hugely influenced by Radaelli and his students.
I never quite understood why Polish sabre gets so much attention in HEMA when it is literally the worst documented lineage in all of Europe, even Russian shashka and Georgian khmali have at least one treatise each! If it was just the Poles I would get it, nationalism can make people do strange things, but why do people like Richard Marsden choose Polish sabre over all of the other better documented systems? For example, there are about a half a dozen sabre treatises written in Swedish and Norwegian from the 19th century and yet as far as I can tell the only people who have read any of them are: me, one guy in Finland, and about five Swedes, one of whom made the only UA-cam video on the subject.
@@andrewk.5575 on the one hand, I completely agree with you, on the other hand, it is a great big cultural weapon in the exact same way that the Japanese have their tie to the sword and the Zulu have their tie to a very specific spear. It is a significant part of their history and their martial culture. Kind of like asking. I don't know why Americans get so hung up on long rifles....
I do understand your sentiment, I really do. I often say myself we are better off exploring the existing treaties. On the other hand, the Commonwealth and Poles had a pretty big impact on saber development and (not just) on European military traditions in general, like the introduction of hussars and uhlans/lancers to European armies. Also, you seem to miss the fact Polish saber fencing is not just a heritage of modern-day Poland. Lithuania. Latvia, Belarus, and Ukraine take part in this heritage. Sabers are also naturally linked to cavalry traditions and it's hard to find more impressive and influential cavalry traditions than Polish. So it is only natural that a lot of people who take an interest in those topics also take an interest in the Polish saber.
@@Velesus101 I'll concede that the Poles, probably, had a big impact on the development of cavalry and the sabre in Europe, but I don't think that's why HEMA groups today study Polish sabre, which was my original question. To my knowledge, none of the various people looking at Polish sabre (Miklaszewski, Marsden, the Sienawskis, etc.) practice mounted fencing, in fact hardly anyone does, the combination horses, land, swords, protective equipment, insurance, etc. is just so ruinously expensive that its been reduced to a tiny niche within a tiny niche. As for it being a part of the heritage of those other countries you mentioned, yes that is technically true, but in my experience only the Poles actually like the Commonwealth and want to hearken back to that period. The Lithuanians and Latvians look back on the pre-Christian period as their golden age, the Ukrainians prefer to talk about the Kievan Rus and the Cossack Hetmanates, and the Belarusians... well I'm not sure Belarus has anything they look back on fondly, except maybe the Brezhnev era.
@@andrewk.5575 There are a few groups dedicated to fighting from horseback. Usually, reenactors that are also active in HEMA. *"in fact hardly anyone does, the combination horses, land, swords, protective equipment, insurance, etc. is just so ruinously expensive"* --- And this is precisely why so many people are trying to reconstruct Polish fencing on foot. Costs are the chief barrier. As for countries that partake in the Commonwealth's heritage, Lithuanians have a split personality. They both renounce and claim it as theirs depending on the situation. But with passing years they look at it more and more fondly. Ukrainians love Cossacks and those were under immense Polish influence. Even the most nationalistic Ukrainian scholars admit that the fighting methods and armaments of cossacks were derived from Polish counterparts. Thanks to the Russian invasion they are turning more towards the Commonwealth heritage. Current Belarusians are the most enthusiastic about the Commonwealth aside from Poles. Even their legion fighting in Ukraine is named after Konstanty Kalinowski, a Polish-Belarusian nobleman, and advocate for restoring the Commonwealth.
I guess the problem with making an accurate comparison is that there are so many interpretations of the Polish saber. The attempt at reconstruction by the Sienawski family gets the most attention but is mostly rejected by the Polish HEMA community. Jurek Miklaszewski once hinted he is writing a book about Polish Sabre fencing but it might be a dead project by now.
the problem is also: nomatter whos writing it, as there is no clear source except starzewski, and that is not a full treatise i fear and historically questionable timeline wise, nomatter how much one wants it....its not original polish sabre its frog dna dussack/sabre...sienawski sabre is dussack, and their style changed completely from their rare old videos to be able to market it as "crosscutting art", there is also almost 0 historical prove that it really is an old polish sabre fencing style. and my biggest red flag: till this day they refuse to show actual sparring/fencing. which makes sense, as that style looks cool but highly suicidal and is in my opinion not really usable in a fight but made for movies and to be different/marketable.
@@manuelm.99 As far as I know Sieniawski brothers don't spar at all. One of the reasons most in the HEMA community don't take them seriously. Yeah, those aren't any direct sources. My personal opinion is that the Polish saber at least in the XVI/XVII centuries wasn't organised in a coherent system. Some sources do refer to Polish fencing as natural/organic fencing. I guess the only way to get close to how it looked is to give a group of newbies sticks. Then teach them only absolute basics and they allow them to learn through placaty (stick fighting) both by trial and error of their own and by observing others. The problem is that we still won't know if the style produced that way is accurate.
@@Velesus101 i mean there could be a treatise hidden in some private nordic families possession, but we wont know i fear. so till now, its all some single sentences and alot of frog dna.
@@manuelm.99 It absolutely can. There is also a big chance that they all have been destroyed. Neither Germans nor the Russians/Soviets had any scruples burning down entire Polish libraries.
To think that there was a coherent fencing system in such a big and diverse country as polish lithuanian commonwealth is an absurdity. Nobles (the rich ones) could afford the tutors (both local and foreigners) for their offspring, some studied it abroad during studies in places like Padua. Less wealthy nobles and commoners did learn to fight from their families or comrades in arms. Also, remember that a saber was a weapon highly connected with cavalry, on which polish forces highly relied. I've read once, that while fighting on horseback your fencing skills are not as important as your riding skills so i assume that the polish soldier wasn't that much of a fencer as he was a good rider. But that's just my assumption, i know nothing about riding and even less about fighting on horseback.
The total displacement or disarming of the opponents weapon was the sforzi/o in Italian sabre correct? I think it is not taught in the sport anymore. Peace to you!
So thumb up is also valid in our system? I was going to ask Kat how she avoids it since I know her (my) light saber (NOT lightsaber) is made for it but I try to avoid the temptation. I also have a heavy trooper-style where it is not tempting, but have contemplated a thumb ring. Thoughts? And Kat, just wear the brace whenever you're waving anything around heavier than a paint brush. They even come in colors. I favor a pink one. Stealthy.
To add to what Russ said, from my perspective as someone who did Hutton for a while, Thumbs up tends to distort my wrist position creating a weird twist that creates big holes in my guard stance. Since we want to make sure we command our center line, any twists in the wrist will cause our tip to waver creating an opening for someone to "bonk" our head with safety. Holding a cage group encourages better alignment for what we do, I also found that when I thumb grip my shoulder is "encouraged" to participate in my swings more then it should.
Happily if I can get over to you guys. Most Polish re-enactment fencers I know train to continue/pull the cut as if they were cutting in earnest, and that results in a heavier hit, no question. If you're sport-trained, well.... no idea
Is anybody making a decent replica of the Model 1934? If not, why not?! That thing was bad-ass! I'm guessing most of the originals wound up in Germany, Russia, or buried to keep them hidden and then never dug up.
@@HobieH3 It is a cavalry saber, pretty heavy for HEMA (around 0,9 kg). I guess it could be used, but it was designed for a specific task and may not be all that good for dueling.
We do the drawcuts as well in Indo-Persian and Turkish swordsmanship
I didn't realize we were specifically supposed to be holding in the center or bottom of the hilt. I naturally gravitated towards wanting to hold as high as I could since I don't remember it being specified in your book on it.
Posting towards the bottom is a common Hungarian practice that our lineage doesn't explicitly do, but LOTS of other Hungarian lineages *do.*
So, the only major work on PL-saber in English as far as I have seen is Richard Marsden's "Polish Saber - the use of the Polish Saber in the 17th Century" (2015); it makes for an interesting read, although corroboration of parts is difficult.
@@raymondsosnowski9717 The Seniawski files put out an article saying "here's our source setup," which I found reasonable. The only place where I have a problem with it is in the bad tempo often shown in The cutting drills. But that said, reenactment fencing is very different from sport fencing and screwing around with a sword becomes a very different affair when you only have a square meter or two to play with rather than an established dueling area. If you have ever done fencing with your 20 closest friends, you know what I'm talking about.
Regarding the momentum in Italian sabre: iirc Radaelli's students had a reputation for both winning tournaments and inflicting a lot of bruises during them
Massive generalisation ahead: French sabre manoeuvres the blade around the adverse blade to land on the target and then pushes or pulls to cut (“comme un scie” lit. like a saw). Chopping (“coups brise”) is used as a secondary option for attacks but mostly for direct ripostes, but still expected to attempt a push or pull on contact if possible. Cavalry manuals introduce the long, slashing “coup de sabre”, probably as more useful in the brief period of contact between mounted and moving opponents, relative to foot combat.
I must say, polish saber looks more similar to scottish broadsword than anything else. Especially in the grip.
Fist grip plus passing steps will instill a certain degree of similarity, I agree. Not that I can be considered an exponent.
Well, to be fair, the putting the thumb on the grip thing was really popular in the 19th century, and olympic fencing is at least partially a direct descendant of italian duelling sabre, being hugely influenced by Radaelli and his students.
I never quite understood why Polish sabre gets so much attention in HEMA when it is literally the worst documented lineage in all of Europe, even Russian shashka and Georgian khmali have at least one treatise each! If it was just the Poles I would get it, nationalism can make people do strange things, but why do people like Richard Marsden choose Polish sabre over all of the other better documented systems? For example, there are about a half a dozen sabre treatises written in Swedish and Norwegian from the 19th century and yet as far as I can tell the only people who have read any of them are: me, one guy in Finland, and about five Swedes, one of whom made the only UA-cam video on the subject.
@@andrewk.5575 on the one hand, I completely agree with you, on the other hand, it is a great big cultural weapon in the exact same way that the Japanese have their tie to the sword and the Zulu have their tie to a very specific spear. It is a significant part of their history and their martial culture. Kind of like asking. I don't know why Americans get so hung up on long rifles....
cause winged hussars are cool!
I do understand your sentiment, I really do. I often say myself we are better off exploring the existing treaties. On the other hand, the Commonwealth and Poles had a pretty big impact on saber development and (not just) on European military traditions in general, like the introduction of hussars and uhlans/lancers to European armies. Also, you seem to miss the fact Polish saber fencing is not just a heritage of modern-day Poland. Lithuania. Latvia, Belarus, and Ukraine take part in this heritage.
Sabers are also naturally linked to cavalry traditions and it's hard to find more impressive and influential cavalry traditions than Polish. So it is only natural that a lot of people who take an interest in those topics also take an interest in the Polish saber.
@@Velesus101 I'll concede that the Poles, probably, had a big impact on the development of cavalry and the sabre in Europe, but I don't think that's why HEMA groups today study Polish sabre, which was my original question. To my knowledge, none of the various people looking at Polish sabre (Miklaszewski, Marsden, the Sienawskis, etc.) practice mounted fencing, in fact hardly anyone does, the combination horses, land, swords, protective equipment, insurance, etc. is just so ruinously expensive that its been reduced to a tiny niche within a tiny niche. As for it being a part of the heritage of those other countries you mentioned, yes that is technically true, but in my experience only the Poles actually like the Commonwealth and want to hearken back to that period. The Lithuanians and Latvians look back on the pre-Christian period as their golden age, the Ukrainians prefer to talk about the Kievan Rus and the Cossack Hetmanates, and the Belarusians... well I'm not sure Belarus has anything they look back on fondly, except maybe the Brezhnev era.
@@andrewk.5575 There are a few groups dedicated to fighting from horseback. Usually, reenactors that are also active in HEMA.
*"in fact hardly anyone does, the combination horses, land, swords, protective equipment, insurance, etc. is just so ruinously expensive"* --- And this is precisely why so many people are trying to reconstruct Polish fencing on foot. Costs are the chief barrier.
As for countries that partake in the Commonwealth's heritage, Lithuanians have a split personality. They both renounce and claim it as theirs depending on the situation. But with passing years they look at it more and more fondly.
Ukrainians love Cossacks and those were under immense Polish influence. Even the most nationalistic Ukrainian scholars admit that the fighting methods and armaments of cossacks were derived from Polish counterparts. Thanks to the Russian invasion they are turning more towards the Commonwealth heritage.
Current Belarusians are the most enthusiastic about the Commonwealth aside from Poles. Even their legion fighting in Ukraine is named after Konstanty Kalinowski, a Polish-Belarusian nobleman, and advocate for restoring the Commonwealth.
I guess the problem with making an accurate comparison is that there are so many interpretations of the Polish saber. The attempt at reconstruction by the Sienawski family gets the most attention but is mostly rejected by the Polish HEMA community.
Jurek Miklaszewski once hinted he is writing a book about Polish Sabre fencing but it might be a dead project by now.
the problem is also: nomatter whos writing it, as there is no clear source except starzewski, and that is not a full treatise i fear and historically questionable timeline wise, nomatter how much one wants it....its not original polish sabre its frog dna dussack/sabre...sienawski sabre is dussack, and their style changed completely from their rare old videos to be able to market it as "crosscutting art", there is also almost 0 historical prove that it really is an old polish sabre fencing style. and my biggest red flag: till this day they refuse to show actual sparring/fencing. which makes sense, as that style looks cool but highly suicidal and is in my opinion not really usable in a fight but made for movies and to be different/marketable.
@@manuelm.99 As far as I know Sieniawski brothers don't spar at all. One of the reasons most in the HEMA community don't take them seriously.
Yeah, those aren't any direct sources. My personal opinion is that the Polish saber at least in the XVI/XVII centuries wasn't organised in a coherent system. Some sources do refer to Polish fencing as natural/organic fencing.
I guess the only way to get close to how it looked is to give a group of newbies sticks. Then teach them only absolute basics and they allow them to learn through placaty (stick fighting) both by trial and error of their own and by observing others. The problem is that we still won't know if the style produced that way is accurate.
@@Velesus101 i mean there could be a treatise hidden in some private nordic families possession, but we wont know i fear. so till now, its all some single sentences and alot of frog dna.
@@manuelm.99 It absolutely can. There is also a big chance that they all have been destroyed. Neither Germans nor the Russians/Soviets had any scruples burning down entire Polish libraries.
To think that there was a coherent fencing system in such a big and diverse country as polish lithuanian commonwealth is an absurdity. Nobles (the rich ones) could afford the tutors (both local and foreigners) for their offspring, some studied it abroad during studies in places like Padua. Less wealthy nobles and commoners did learn to fight from their families or comrades in arms. Also, remember that a saber was a weapon highly connected with cavalry, on which polish forces highly relied. I've read once, that while fighting on horseback your fencing skills are not as important as your riding skills so i assume that the polish soldier wasn't that much of a fencer as he was a good rider. But that's just my assumption, i know nothing about riding and even less about fighting on horseback.
Interesting
The total displacement or disarming of the opponents weapon was the sforzi/o in Italian sabre correct? I think it is not taught in the sport anymore.
Peace to you!
@@CreationGrid that is correct sir. Disarmament is not strictly necessary but displacement is
So thumb up is also valid in our system? I was going to ask Kat how she avoids it since I know her (my) light saber (NOT lightsaber) is made for it but I try to avoid the temptation.
I also have a heavy trooper-style where it is not tempting, but have contemplated a thumb ring. Thoughts?
And Kat, just wear the brace whenever you're waving anything around heavier than a paint brush. They even come in colors. I favor a pink one. Stealthy.
No, but it's common for *other* Hungarian traditions. We keep the fist.
To add to what Russ said, from my perspective as someone who did Hutton for a while, Thumbs up tends to distort my wrist position creating a weird twist that creates big holes in my guard stance. Since we want to make sure we command our center line, any twists in the wrist will cause our tip to waver creating an opening for someone to "bonk" our head with safety. Holding a cage group encourages better alignment for what we do, I also found that when I thumb grip my shoulder is "encouraged" to participate in my swings more then it should.
So I hit hard cause I'm Polish - convinient excuse ;) Wish to trade blows some time.
Happily if I can get over to you guys. Most Polish re-enactment fencers I know train to continue/pull the cut as if they were cutting in earnest, and that results in a heavier hit, no question. If you're sport-trained, well.... no idea
@@russmitchellmovementWe like to hit heavy around here.
Is anybody making a decent replica of the Model 1934? If not, why not?! That thing was bad-ass! I'm guessing most of the originals wound up in Germany, Russia, or buried to keep them hidden and then never dug up.
@@HobieH3 It is a cavalry saber, pretty heavy for HEMA (around 0,9 kg). I guess it could be used, but it was designed for a specific task and may not be all that good for dueling.