What gets me is how people all over the spectrum of scholarship like Wright, Carrier and even people like Chris Date criticize Full-Preterism as unorthodox and fringe going against Church History and creedal confession. But if that argument had any validity the reformers could never have broken away from Roman Catholicism. These people just don't want to make waves. But I'm not interested in going along to get along! I'm interested in the truth!
Mike, I completely agree with what you said at the 1:16 minute mark. James Jordan is one of the best theologians ever. I don't agree with him on everything. But he is very good!
I agree with Gary. Mike you are one of my favorite teachers and I appreciate everything you do, with Don Preston, with the group when you are doing the book of Revelation study with everything! Gary is making a very good point about writing this out so that some of us slower people (me) are able to chew and swallow smaller chunks to digest and be able to regurgitate these awesome lessons in a more simpler way. I for one would really appreciate it 😊
Brother Gary, it is great to see your humble and teachable spirit, that is far too often not the case. Thank you brethren for your studies, I learn everyday of the completed work of Christ and how blessed we are.
Excellent discussion yet again. I thank the Lord for your efforts! Full-Preterism has allowed me to concentrate on conforming my life to the Lord God who exists in the Unseen Realm as the late Michael Heiser would say. Thank you both. I continue to learn more to reaffirm my understanding of all these things. Thx
Right ; Jesus when he resurrect it was the resurrection of is human body dead on the cross, hands feets and left side pierced are the marks of is crucifixion , Paul was the one who see Jesus glorified on the road to Damas, he was shining like the sun ( is glory) Merci for your good exchange it's very edifying .
33:34 Another important concept or truth from that passage which I like is, "Those who live by believing in Me shall never die. Even if they die, yet shall they live again". Hard belief to live, unless or until it happens to you. "Transition of Ages" Book of UDO
I found this interesting: the Koine Greek work 'harpe' means sickle (a harvesting tool) as well as a bird of prey (literally snatches their prey, in other words, harvesting their meal). Our word 'harpoon' comes from harpe. This is the same word in which harpazo is based. So when we read that He will harpazo those in Christ, we should be thinking of Him harvesting as He said He would do and in which He did. It does not mean they were physically taken off of the planet as there were some who would be harvested and yet still remain.
I don't think that either Mike or Gary comprehend what being 'born of the Spirit'. means, and how being born of the Spirit is the resurrection of Christ. And Christ's resurrection has been ongoing since Pentecost and ended with OC Israel in 70 AD but continued with the Gentiles after 70 AD.
@@GRXMotorsPNW If I understand correctly, they are teaching the resurrection to life in Christ takes place on a corporate level for the church in 70 AD.
@@ophiuchus9071 Yeah but that doesn't include those of us who are physically alive. The resurrection and judgment of those still living happens upon physical bodily death of each every person
here is the correct understanding of 1 THESSALONIANS 4:13-17 quote This passage has also been misinterpreted by many who look for a future fulfillment of these things. First, Paul wishes to tell the brethren two things about those who fall asleep.” This phrase was commonly used to refer to those people who were physically dead, in the same manner that we might say “those who have passed on.” The ones referred to here by Paul are the Christian brethren who have been killed or martyred under the ongoing persecutions because of their belief in and confession of Jesus Christ. This was the hardest test for these first Christians, that many would have to pay for their new found belief in Christ with their lives. The brethren whom Paul was addressing were obviously wondering about those loved ones and friends who had died. Would they have died in vain? Would they be a part of the victory over the enemies that was promised to occur shortly? Paul wrote this to settle their hearts and minds and to explain what was to happen. In verse 13, Paul indicates that he will do two things. First, he will inform them about the martyrs (“we do not want you to be ignorant”), and second, he will comfort them (“… or to grieve”). Now, in comforting them, Paul does not promise them that they will have an earthly reunion with these dead Christians. Nowhere does God promise that physically living men and women will see their dead loved ones reconstituted in a fleshly body and thus be reunited with them in that manner. How, then, does Paul comfort them concerning these? He promises them that “God will bring with him” the martyrs. Let us not assume anything concerning an interpretation of this statement just yet. Let us note that it is not specified to whom this coming is to be made, nor is it yet specified the manner or form of this coming with the martyrs. Immediately following in verse 15, Paul says: “According to the Lord’s own word, we tell you….” [1 Th 4:15, NIV] Just as in the passage in 1 Corinthians 15, we find a key phrase here that indicates the explicit beginning of a formal prophecy. With this introduction, which indicates the source and authority (God’s direct word) of the prophecy to follow, Paul immediately utters it and once again he uses symbols and figurative language. This format and form is consistent throughout the New Testament. The first statement he makes is: …we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep.” [1 Th 4:15, NIV] First, let us note that at the time of the coming of the Lord, some of Paul’s contemporaries would still be alive and left as physical men and women. The coming was to happen within that generation! Placing this event in the future would deny the comfort that Paul was giving these Christian brethren to keep them from grieving. Now, these physically alive Christians would “not precede” the martyred ones. “Precede them” meaning what? Because the word rise is used later in the passage, referring to the dead in Christ, many simply assume that he means preceding them in a resurrection from death to life. Verse 16: “…and the dead in Christ will rise first.” [1Th 4:15, NIV] Let us well note, however, that these martyrs who were raised here were dead in Christ. Whatever this rising is, it cannot be a spiritual resurrection, for these Christians were already resurrected spiritually and living in Christ right then, even though their earthly bodies had been destroyed. They received that resurrection when they were baptized into Christ. They were dead physically, but eternally alive with God, for as Jesus told the Sadducees in Matthew 22:32- “…God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.” If we rule out resurrection from physical death to spiritual life as the meaning of “rising,” can we assume that it means one from physical death to a new physical life? No, we cannot. As we have seen before, the nature of resurrection is only from physical and spiritual death to spiritual life. Let us read again the explanation of the manner or mode of resurrection Paul gives us in 1 Corinthians 15:42-44 - “So it will be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable…. It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.” [NIV] There is no resurrection of the physical, fleshly body after biological death. It is not promised and the mode of resurrection specifically precludes it. This “rising”, then, was not a physical resurrection, either. What is the nature and meaning of this rising of the martyred Christian spirits’? We must remember that this is a prophecy and that Paul is speaking in symbolic language. The key to understanding this passage is in recognizing the event that Paul is portraying here. That event is a “coming of the Lord,” and in verse 16, we read: “For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God…” [1Th 4:16, NIV] This is the same imagery and the same format of symbols as we have seen time upon time before in the Bible. It has the same meaning and refers to the identical event. The Lord Jesus Christ, along with the full power and presence of God, would come spiritually against the enemies of his people. He would bring with him the souls of those Christians who had died and also the souls of the Christians who were still living. They would collectively “come” in vengeance against the enemy through the vehicle of the Roman army. Thus we see the symbols used: Christ comes down from heaven, signifying the place of power and authority. He speaks a loud command, signifying the words of judgment that he delivers to the apostate Jewish nation. He speaks that judgment with the voice of the archangel, signifying Christ’s role as the one delivering the message of God to the people being judged. Angel means messenger of God, and Christ is pictured or represented here as the archangel, that is the most important and prominent of God’s messengers. Christ is, of course, the Word of God itself. He comes to them with the trumpet call of God, signifying, as it always does, a “Day of Visitation” or “Day of the Lord” - a day of judgment and destruction to a nation or people. It should be obvious that this prophecy is cut from the same cloth as the others we have examined. It refers to the great day of fulfillment of the prophecies in the war actions of A.D. 70. It was the coming destruction of the spiritually adulterous and physically persecuting Jewish nation that would relieve the brethren of the new Church.
Understanding the subject of this coming, we can now put into place the correct interpretation of the “rising” of the “dead in Christ” along with the rest of the passage. In Revelation 6:9-11, we see a portrayal or representation of the Christian martyrs - the same people Paul is speaking about in this passage as those who are “asleep,” and who “rise.” In John’s passage, he says: “When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. They called out in a loud voice, ‘How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?’ Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and brothers who were to be killed as they had been was completed.” [NIV] Here are the martyrs, waiting to be avenged for their deaths. The Lord promised them in Luke 18:7-8 that he would avenge them speedily. Why did God delay the day of vengeance? Only to let the prophesied time occur and to accomplish all that was foreordained by him, but that delay would be short - they would wait only “a little longer.” Following this scene, the terrible sixth seal is opened, which precipitates the destructions that God brought upon the nation of unbelievers. The martyrs would have to wait no more. In symbols, the fulfillment of Jesus’ prophecy in Matthew 24 occurs as the sun turns black, the moon to blood, the stars fall to earth, and all the kings, princes, rich men, freemen, and slaves call out (Revelation 6:16-17): “…hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?” After this terrible day of judgment, John sees the symbolic representation of the spiritual church, the collective souls of the believers arranged about the great throne of God. Then in Revelation 7:13, we read: “Then one of the elders asked me, ‘These in white robes - who are they, and where did they come from?’ I answered, ‘Sir, you know.’ And he said, ‘These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they…are before the throne of God and serve him day and night in his temple” [NIV] Here is the entire picture of the events concerning the Christian believers who were killed for their faith. Before the great day of wrath, the martyrs cried out for vengeance, pleading with God to do what he promised and give victory to them by destroying the enemy that had taken their earthly lives. Note carefully the way that John pictures these souls - in this first scene, he sees them as UNDER the altar. This simply signifies that they are in a condition or state of distress and humiliation, suffering an injustice and not yet glorified in victory. In their anguish, they are in a position of supplication to the Lord on his throne. After the terrible events of the sixth seal, the destruction of the enemies is complete and the vengeance of these martyrs is accomplished. Now, John pictures them as being BEFORE the altar, praising the Lord and serving him. This signifies the end result where the martyrs have been vindicated and they are no longer in supplication to God, but are glorified with him in the victory. Here is the true meaning of the “dead in Christ” rising at the day of the Lord’s coming. It is not a spiritual rising, for they had already risen spiritually and were eternally alive in Christ. It is not a physical rising, for resurrection is spiritual in nature. This rising is a part of this prophecy, and the rising is SYMBOLIC IN NATURE. The symbol of the dead rising is a picture of these martyrs, starting from a condition of humiliation, despair, and of being enormously wronged; rising to a state of vindication, relief, and tremendous glory in the victory over the ones who murdered them. This vindication of the martyrs is what Paul is talking about when he told the Thessalonian brethren that they would not “precede” the martyrs. He did not mean precede in terms of literal timing, but rather, precede in terms of place of honor, importance, and the giving of credit where it was due. The martyrs gave their lives, and the living Christians who survived the great tribulation would want to and would by nature give the first honors and tributes to those souls with all the respect that was due them for their sacrifices. These still living Christians, however, were also persecuted and were also to be a part of the coming of the Lord against the enemy. This is why Paul goes on to say in verses 16-17: “…The dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.” [1Th 4:16, NIV] The martyrs are symbolically raised from oppression to victory first (in order of honor) because of their ultimate sacrifice. Then those believers who were alive at the time of the coming were placed with the martyrs in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. These terms are both symbols, not physical or literal things. As we have studied earlier, both of these terms refer to the spiritual state. God came against nations in clouds because he came spiritually through the actions of human armies. God is a spirit (John 4:24), and that word is derived from the Hebrew and Greek words for wind, breath, or moving air. When Paul says the Christian souls will meet the Lord in the clouds in the air, he means it is a spiritual congregation and not a physical one. It is a real meeting, and it is also a symbolic one in signifying the collective victory over their enemies. Once this congregation in victory has happened: “So shall we ever be with the Lord.”[v. 17] The purpose of this statement is not to say that the Christians would be with Christ at some future time. They were already with the Lord in the spiritual state from the time they were resurrected in baptism. The operative word here is “so.” It means that they would be with the Lord in a certain way. The “way” that these Christians would “be” with the Lord forever, was to be with him in victory over the enemies! Here Paul concludes his prophecy and tells them in verse 18: “Wherefore comfort one another with these words.” (1Th 4:18) It would be of little comfort to those believers who were going through the great tribulations of persecution, many of them being killed for their belief, if they could not look forward to the vengeance and victory that Christ promised them would be shortly forthcoming. To place this or any other reference to a coming of Christ in the far future is to place those martyrs yet at the base of that great throne, weary with their plea to God to take vengeance upon their murderers after 2,000 years! To place this passage in the future is to withdraw from us and the first century Christians the spiritual life and connection with Christ and God that supposedly is to begin with these events at the “end of time.” To interpret this symbolic prophecy in literal terms and have the Christian believers actually flying through the atmosphere to meet Jesus in the physical clouds of this planet is a gross and lamentable misunderstanding and misinterpretation of God’s word. The fact is that these things have all been fulfilled just as Paul prophesied, and just as Jesus Christ prophesied. The martyrs were vindicated and avenged when the murdering and unbelieving nation of Judea was totally destroyed in the war events of AD. 67-70. The Christians were spiritually and physically victorious over the persecutors, as God used the Romans as his tool to eradicate the threat to the Church’s existence. The Great Day of the Lord occurred and the Christians did meet Christ in the spiritual air of glorious victory as the old age came to its final end in the fulfillment of all these things.
Hebrews 11:35 Women received their dead raised to life again. Others were tortured, not accepting deliverance, that they might obtain a better resurrection. The 'better resurrection' being referred to is that resurrection of 'rising first', as Paul taught in 1 Thes 4:13-17 and John revealed in Revelation 20 This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection.
@@ophiuchus9071 It is true that placing the prophesied resurrection (whether perceived as spiritual or physical) in the far future cannot comfort the physically and mentally oppressed people. As you say, those who died in Christ and those living in Christ were already spiritually resurrected. But how can a symbolic resurrection comfort them? A symbolic resurrection of what? What did it symbolize that they didn't already realize? I'm sorry, but your interpretation condones delusionary and wishful thinking, which describes nothing of what it means to be in Christ and Christ in us.
@@sishrac A symbolic resurrection of what? What did it symbolize that they didn't already realize? end quote The final step of OC Israel's resurrection was the promise made to them that they would be raised up when the judgment came, the resurrection of Christ itself is about being born again and made alive in the Spirit. They had that resurrection when the first believed. at that time.. They were being persecuted by the OC Jews. That torture and persecutions the Jews were causing them was going to stop at the judgment and the Jews who were persecuting them would be destroyed The church would no longer be considered as heretics as the Jews had been labelling them. When the fake Jews under the law were destroyed, then the true Jews (Christians) would be seen as the true children of God. Their raising up was about them being delivered from their enemy. The upcoming raising up of the church wasn't about individual bodies being literally raised. The believers already had their individual resurrection in Christ. The raising up they were waiting for as a church together was about the church being lifted out of the murderous hands of the Jews and the church then becoming seen for who they were, the children of God,. Them being raised was about them no longer being considered as heretics to be tortured and persecuted. The resurrection was about the church having a transformation to being seen as the glory of God in the world. LIke a sports team who comes from the bottom place and ends up winning the 'cup'. That team is no longer seen as losers but is now given the glory of being a winner that team was raised up in glory at the end, but it first had to become a team
28 Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice 29 and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment. (John 5:28, ESV) i dont know of anyone that will marvel at someone that got a spiritual resurrection we cant even tell by looking at the person 😅 we all know that litteral graves opened and people came out walked around the city 😅 not spiritually walking around now thats the marvel jesus spoke of not unseen resurrection 😢😂 52 The tombs also were opened. And many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised, 53 and coming out of the tombs after his resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many. (Matthew 27:52, ESV)
I think, we who are alive and remain will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air when we die. We live, we physically die, we are judged. Revelation 22:12 and 2 Corinthians 8:10. I believe the first resurrection is being raised in Christ spiritually. Sealed by the Spirit, passing from death to life not experiencing the 2nd death.
Believers were brought into the kingdom since Pentecost, 70 AD had nothing to do with being brought into the kingdom of Christ. Colossians 1:13 For he has rescued us from the dominion of darkness and brought us into the kingdom of the Son he loves, The believers were no longer in darkness once they received the HS. 1 Thessalonians 5:4 But you, brothers and sisters, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief. No Christian martyr was ever in hades, hades means 'unseen' and the Christians are not unseen by God, it the OC Jews who went into the unseen and it wasn't when the died physically that this took place either, it was when they were alive on the earth. Deut 32 19 The Lord saw this and rejected them because he was angered by his sons and daughters. 20 “I will hide my face from them,” he said, “and see what their end will be; for they are a perverse generation, children who are unfaithful. Those first century OC Jews had God turn HIs face from them and that meant they were spiritually in the 'unseen'/hades concerning their covenantal relationship with God. hades has nothing to do with a place a person's soul went in their physical death. That theology is from the antichrist Catholic religion and it is a lie.
Psalms 16:10 Jesus the Christ(Messiah/Holy One)not abandoned in the grave. Hosea 6:1-2 Another Messianic rising from the dead Both are connected to Isaiah 53 So not singular as in death only. There are hints to resurrection if I understand your question
@GRXMotorsPNW I'm not doubting the theological point Mike made. It's just a textual question. Thanatos (death) is singular whereas Mike said it was plural in that passage.
@@JR-rs5qs I didn’t say in the LXX see the SLT: And he will give with the unjust his grave, and with the rich in his deaths, for he did no violence, and no deceit in his mouth.
@@michaelsullivan6868 Thanks for clarifying the translation you were using, Mike. I was looking it up in the LXX for my own benefit and death is singular. It appears the SLT is the only one that translates it plural and I wonder why since it's singular in the LXX and MT (which I trust much less). I agree with the theological point you were making but I'm thinking the SLT may be wrong on this one.
@MichaelSullivan when Jesus cry's out my God why have you forsaken me he wasn't separating himself from god he was Quoting scripture from psalms 22 it was old testament scripture prophesying the crucifixion of Christ
@duaneking273 Having the spirit here on earth is not related to absent from the body present with the Lord. Present with the Lord in my mind means dying in this life then gaining your glorified body and being physically in the presence of the Lord in Heaven. Therefore we would not go to Sheol or Hades. So my question was would that have been possible during Paul's writing ✍️ of Corinthians? Because unless I'm missing something the resurrection from Hades hadn't happened yet. Maybe I'm missing something
The deceased were already in the heavenly Jerusalem and were only waiting for the symbolic spiritual union with the NC believers. Outside the body, there is absence from the community of believers. But in the spirit of God, he was present with them. Blessing
@@markusmustermann1265 Could the deceased approach God per se without Christs mediation until their soul had been judged guilty or not guilty to inherit? Why would souls be under the alter waiting for vengeance and inheritance to be completed. and not partaking of the promises given to the churches regarding inheritance esp Rev 3:12, 3:20:21. Check 1st Peter out and see what he means by the soul wait g for Inheritance, cleansing, and salvation. Just a thought and blessing to you.
@@duaneking273 I'm not confused about what happens when we die now physical. We immediately gain a glorified body and arrived in Heaven physical. Scripture teaches our citizenship is in Heaven. I do not believe in a Future existence here on Planet Earth like partial preterist, dispensationalists and amillennialists believe. I'm a Full-Preterist. But 1 or 2 unanswered questions remain like does this physical reality end. My answer is likely yes. But how? Idk the Bible is silent. For now it's a springboard and soul making reality that gets us to Heaven. If I figure anything else out I'll say. Or maybe the good Dr. Gary knows or perhaps Mike or Don. I'll be watching 👀 😎 and listening in the mean time ⏲️
@GRXMotorsPNW if you knew the Bible, you would know how ignorant of the Bible Mike Sullivan is, you must be embarrassed beyond measure at your ignorance of the Bible.
Maybe, he which "hinders until he is taken out of the way' was none other than James the Just (the brother of Jesus and leader of the Nazoreans) who was murdered in 62 AD by being thrown down from the Temple. Afterward, the congregation left Jerusalem opening the door for matters in the priesthood to proceed leading to the revelation of the 'man of sin'.
If we look down to verse 7 for a moment, we hear paul say: “For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so until he is taken out of the way.” [2 Thes.2:7 NIV] Here we understand that the first part of this mysterious event is underway even then, during the time that Paul was writing this letter to the Thessalonians. To understand what Paul is referring to, we must realize that these prophecies concern Christ coming in vengeance against his enemies. The enemies can be generally categorized as any and all persecutors of his people on earth. We have seen how God used the Roman army to come against the Jewish state and destroy it, but the pagan Romans were also persecutors of Christianity and were also included as subjects of the “coming in vengeance” of Christ. This is one passage where this understanding is the key to the proper interpretation of the prophetic language. In verse 7, Paul was referring to the current state of the Roman authorities, and he gives us, prior to the fact, an accurate description of what would occur between the time he wrote this letter and the events of AD. 70. Let us see how this interpretation works. First, in verse 7, we hear that the “secret power of lawlessness” is already at work. What is this power? Any time we are studying a Bible prophecy that has as part of its subject matter the concepts of “law” or “lawlessness,” we can be certain that it is referring to only one thing - the law, the Law of Moses. Here, the power of lawlessness is simply that power in the world of the prophecy that is not subject to the Law. In this case, that power is Rome. It is called the “secret” power because this is a prophecy and Rome was not yet at war with Judea at the time Paul was saying this. Since the power 5 not yet being revealed against them, it is referred to as “secret.” This lawless power - the Gentile, human power of the Roman Empire - would be unleashed against the rebelling Jews, but not until certain things happened. Paul goes on to describe this: “…But the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way…” With the Roman Empire as the subject, it makes sense to look to the Roman authorities to see who this “one” is. At the time Paul wrote this letter in A.D. 52 or 53, the emperor Claudius was on the throne. He was succeeded one or two years later in A.D. 54 by Nero Caesar. If we apply this to the prophecy, we see that Claudius is the “one who now holds it back” - that is, the prophesied events will not occur while Claudius is on the throne. He will “continue to do so” - that is, to restrain the events from occurring - until “he is taken out of the way. In 54, he is removed and Nero comes to the throne. end quote
This video is full of information and requires watching it several times! I think Mike Sullivan is on to something about Jesus' bodily resurrection. Lot of information in data in this video
Aren't you falling into the Jesus v Paul nonsense by continuing to use that terminology. Isn't it actually Matthew v Paul or Matthew v Thessalonians. "They" are using a childish tactic by taking the misinterpretations based upon Matthew's Gospel and calling it Jesus' eschatology and oitting it against that of the eschatology in Paul's epistles.
What gets me is how people all over the spectrum of scholarship like Wright, Carrier and even people like Chris Date criticize Full-Preterism as unorthodox and fringe going against Church History and creedal confession. But if that argument had any validity the reformers could never have broken away from Roman Catholicism.
These people just don't want to make waves.
But I'm not interested in going along to get along!
I'm interested in the truth!
Mike, I completely agree with what you said at the 1:16 minute mark. James Jordan is one of the best theologians ever. I don't agree with him on everything. But he is very good!
Same here. He is by far my favorite.
I agree with Gary. Mike you are one of my favorite teachers and I appreciate everything you do, with Don Preston, with the group when you are doing the book of Revelation study with everything! Gary is making a very good point about writing this out so that some of us slower people (me) are able to chew and swallow smaller chunks to digest and be able to regurgitate these awesome lessons in a more simpler way. I for one would really appreciate it 😊
Brother Gary, it is great to see your humble and teachable spirit, that is far too often not the case. Thank you brethren for your studies, I learn everyday of the completed work of Christ and how blessed we are.
Excellent discussion yet again. I thank the Lord for your efforts! Full-Preterism has allowed me to concentrate on conforming my life to the Lord God who exists in the Unseen Realm as the late Michael Heiser would say.
Thank you both. I continue to learn more to reaffirm my understanding of all these things.
Thx
Consider 1 Thess. 5.10 - whether awake or asleep live together with him. Not two events but one event incorporating the dead ones and the alive ones.
Preach it Mike;-). A great unpacking and walking through the scriptures. Does my heart good. Thanks.
We have 24/7 access to an empty supermarket 😅
AMEN NEVER DIE 🙏 🙌
1 minute reels. 10,000 views. That is encouraging. Thanks Gary.
You guys 👦 are awesome 👌 thkq thkq thkq
Right ; Jesus when he resurrect it was the resurrection of is human body dead on the cross, hands feets and left side pierced are the marks of is crucifixion , Paul was the one who see Jesus glorified on the road to Damas, he was shining like the sun ( is glory) Merci for your good exchange it's very edifying .
33:34
Another important concept or truth from that passage which I like is, "Those who live by believing in Me shall never die. Even if they die, yet shall they live again".
Hard belief to live, unless or until it happens to you.
"Transition of Ages"
Book of UDO
I found this interesting: the Koine Greek work 'harpe' means sickle (a harvesting tool) as well as a bird of prey (literally snatches their prey, in other words, harvesting their meal). Our word 'harpoon' comes from harpe. This is the same word in which harpazo is based. So when we read that He will harpazo those in Christ, we should be thinking of Him harvesting as He said He would do and in which He did. It does not mean they were physically taken off of the planet as there were some who would be harvested and yet still remain.
I don't think that either Mike or Gary comprehend what being 'born of the Spirit'. means, and how being born of the Spirit is the resurrection of Christ. And Christ's resurrection has been ongoing since Pentecost and ended with OC Israel in 70 AD but continued with the Gentiles after 70 AD.
You do not understand what Mike and Gary are teaching.
Sorry
@@GRXMotorsPNW If I understand correctly, they are teaching the resurrection to life in Christ takes place on a corporate level for the church in 70 AD.
@@ophiuchus9071 Yeah but that doesn't include those of us who are physically alive. The resurrection and judgment of those still living happens upon physical bodily death of each every person
@@ophiuchus9071 I'm sorry No wrong. The 70AD resurrection is those in sheol or Hades or Abraham's bosom. NOT The Church.
@@GRXMotorsPNW I don't believe that is taught in scripture
here is the correct understanding of 1 THESSALONIANS 4:13-17
quote
This passage has also been misinterpreted by many who look for a future fulfillment of these things.
First, Paul wishes to tell the brethren two things about those who fall asleep.” This phrase was commonly used to refer to those people who were physically dead, in the same manner that we might say “those who have passed on.” The ones referred to here by Paul are the Christian brethren who have been killed or martyred under the ongoing persecutions because of their belief in and confession of Jesus Christ. This was the hardest test for these first Christians, that many would have to pay for their new found belief in Christ with their lives.
The brethren whom Paul was addressing were obviously wondering about those loved ones and friends who had died. Would they have died in vain? Would they be a part of the victory over the enemies that was promised to occur shortly? Paul wrote this to settle their hearts and minds and to explain what was to happen.
In verse 13, Paul indicates that he will do two things. First, he will inform them about the martyrs (“we do not want you to be ignorant”), and second, he will comfort them (“… or to grieve”). Now, in comforting them, Paul does not promise them that they will have an earthly reunion with these dead Christians. Nowhere does God promise that physically living men and women will see their dead loved ones reconstituted in a fleshly body and thus be reunited with them in that manner.
How, then, does Paul comfort them concerning these? He promises them that “God will bring with him” the martyrs. Let us not assume anything concerning an interpretation of this statement just yet. Let us note that it is not specified to whom this coming is to be made, nor is it yet specified the manner or form of this coming with the martyrs. Immediately following in verse 15, Paul says:
“According to the Lord’s own word, we tell you….”
[1 Th 4:15, NIV]
Just as in the passage in 1 Corinthians 15, we find a key phrase here that indicates the explicit beginning of a formal prophecy. With this introduction, which indicates the source and authority (God’s direct word) of the prophecy to follow, Paul immediately utters it and once again he uses symbols and figurative language. This format and form is consistent throughout the New Testament. The first statement he makes is:
…we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep.”
[1 Th 4:15, NIV]
First, let us note that at the time of the coming of the Lord, some of Paul’s contemporaries would still be alive and left as physical men and women. The coming was to happen within that generation! Placing this event in the future would deny the comfort that Paul was giving these Christian brethren to keep them from grieving.
Now, these physically alive Christians would “not precede” the martyred ones. “Precede them” meaning what? Because the word rise is used later in the passage, referring to the dead in Christ, many simply assume that he means preceding them in a resurrection from death to life. Verse 16:
“…and the dead in Christ will rise first.”
[1Th 4:15, NIV]
Let us well note, however, that these martyrs who were raised here were dead in Christ. Whatever this rising is, it cannot be a spiritual resurrection, for these Christians were already resurrected spiritually and living in Christ right then, even though their earthly bodies had been destroyed. They received that resurrection when they were baptized into Christ. They were dead physically, but eternally alive with God, for as Jesus told the Sadducees in Matthew 22:32-
“…God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.”
If we rule out resurrection from physical death to spiritual life as the meaning of “rising,” can we assume that it means one from physical death to a new physical life? No, we cannot. As we have seen before, the nature of resurrection is only from physical and spiritual death to spiritual life. Let us read again the explanation of the manner or mode of resurrection Paul gives us in 1 Corinthians 15:42-44 -
“So it will be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable…. It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.”
[NIV]
There is no resurrection of the physical, fleshly body after biological death. It is not promised and the mode of resurrection specifically precludes it. This “rising”, then, was not a physical resurrection, either.
What is the nature and meaning of this rising of the martyred Christian spirits’? We must remember that this is a prophecy and that Paul is speaking in symbolic language. The key to understanding this passage is in recognizing the event that Paul is portraying here. That event is a “coming of the Lord,” and in verse 16, we read:
“For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God…”
[1Th 4:16, NIV]
This is the same imagery and the same format of symbols as we have seen time upon time before in the Bible. It has the same meaning and refers to the identical event. The Lord Jesus Christ, along with the full power and presence of God, would come spiritually against the enemies of his people. He would bring with him the souls of those Christians who had died and also the souls of the Christians who were still living. They would collectively “come” in vengeance against the enemy through the vehicle of the Roman army.
Thus we see the symbols used: Christ comes down from heaven, signifying the place of power and authority. He speaks a loud command, signifying the words of judgment that he delivers to the apostate
Jewish nation. He speaks that judgment with the voice of the archangel, signifying Christ’s role as the one delivering the message of God to the people being judged. Angel means messenger of God, and Christ is pictured or represented here as the archangel, that is the most important and prominent of God’s messengers. Christ is, of course, the Word of God itself. He comes to them with the trumpet call of God, signifying, as it always does, a “Day of Visitation” or “Day of the Lord” - a day of judgment and destruction to a nation or people.
It should be obvious that this prophecy is cut from the same cloth as the others we have examined. It refers to the great day of fulfillment of the prophecies in the war actions of A.D. 70. It was the coming destruction of the spiritually adulterous and physically persecuting Jewish nation that would relieve the brethren of the new Church.
Understanding the subject of this coming, we can now put into place the correct interpretation of the “rising” of the “dead in Christ” along with the rest of the passage. In Revelation 6:9-11, we see a portrayal or representation of the Christian martyrs - the same people Paul is speaking about in this passage as those who are “asleep,” and who “rise.” In John’s passage, he says:
“When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. They called out in a loud voice, ‘How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?’ Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and brothers who were to be killed as they had been was completed.”
[NIV]
Here are the martyrs, waiting to be avenged for their deaths. The Lord promised them in Luke 18:7-8 that he would avenge them speedily. Why did God delay the day of vengeance? Only to let the prophesied time occur and to accomplish all that was foreordained by him, but that delay would be short - they would wait only “a little longer.”
Following this scene, the terrible sixth seal is opened, which precipitates the destructions that God brought upon the nation of unbelievers. The martyrs would have to wait no more. In symbols, the fulfillment of Jesus’ prophecy in Matthew 24 occurs as the sun turns black, the moon to blood, the stars fall to earth, and all the kings, princes, rich men, freemen, and slaves call out (Revelation 6:16-17):
“…hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?”
After this terrible day of judgment, John sees the symbolic representation of the spiritual church, the collective souls of the believers arranged about the great throne of God. Then in Revelation 7:13, we read:
“Then one of the elders asked me, ‘These in white robes - who are they, and where did they come from?’ I answered, ‘Sir, you know.’ And he said, ‘These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they…are before the throne of God and serve him day and night in his temple”
[NIV]
Here is the entire picture of the events concerning the Christian believers who were killed for their faith. Before the great day of wrath, the martyrs cried out for vengeance, pleading with God to do what he promised and give victory to them by destroying the enemy that had taken their earthly lives. Note carefully the way that John pictures these souls - in this first scene, he sees them as UNDER the altar. This simply signifies that they are in a condition or state of distress and humiliation, suffering an injustice and not yet glorified in victory. In their anguish, they are in a position of supplication to the Lord on his throne.
After the terrible events of the sixth seal, the destruction of the enemies is complete and the vengeance of these martyrs is accomplished. Now, John pictures them as being BEFORE the altar, praising the Lord and serving him. This signifies the end result where the martyrs have been vindicated and they are no longer in supplication to God, but are glorified with him in the victory.
Here is the true meaning of the “dead in Christ” rising at the day of the Lord’s coming. It is not a spiritual rising, for they had already risen spiritually and were eternally alive in Christ. It is not a physical rising, for resurrection is spiritual in nature. This rising is a part of this prophecy, and the rising is SYMBOLIC IN NATURE.
The symbol of the dead rising is a picture of these martyrs, starting from a condition of humiliation, despair, and of being enormously wronged; rising to a state of vindication, relief, and tremendous glory in the victory over the ones who murdered them.
This vindication of the martyrs is what Paul is talking about when he told the Thessalonian brethren that they would not “precede” the martyrs. He did not mean precede in terms of literal timing, but rather, precede in terms of place of honor, importance, and the giving of credit where it was due. The martyrs gave their lives, and the living Christians who survived the great tribulation would want to and would by nature give the first honors and tributes to those souls with all the respect that was due them for their sacrifices. These still living Christians, however, were also persecuted and were also to be a part of the coming of the Lord against the enemy. This is why Paul goes on to say in verses 16-17:
“…The dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.”
[1Th 4:16, NIV]
The martyrs are symbolically raised from oppression to victory first (in order of honor) because of their ultimate sacrifice. Then those believers who were alive at the time of the coming were placed with the martyrs in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. These terms are both symbols, not physical or literal things. As we have studied earlier, both of these terms refer to the spiritual state. God came against nations in clouds because he came spiritually through the actions of human armies. God is a spirit (John 4:24), and that word is derived from the Hebrew and Greek words for wind, breath, or moving air. When Paul says the Christian souls will meet the Lord in the clouds in the air, he means it is a spiritual congregation and not a physical one. It is a real meeting, and it is also a symbolic one in signifying the collective victory over their enemies. Once this congregation in victory has happened:
“So shall we ever be with the Lord.”[v. 17]
The purpose of this statement is not to say that the Christians would be with Christ at some future time. They were already with the Lord in the spiritual state from the time they were resurrected in baptism. The operative word here is “so.” It means that they would be with the Lord in a certain way. The “way” that these Christians would “be” with the Lord forever, was to be with him in victory over the enemies!
Here Paul concludes his prophecy and tells them in verse 18:
“Wherefore comfort one another with these words.” (1Th 4:18)
It would be of little comfort to those believers who were going through the great tribulations of persecution, many of them being killed for their belief, if they could not look forward to the vengeance and victory that Christ promised them would be shortly forthcoming. To place this or any other reference to a coming of Christ in the far future is to place those martyrs yet at the base of that great throne, weary with their plea to God to take vengeance upon their murderers after 2,000 years! To place this passage in the future is to withdraw from us and the first century Christians the spiritual life and connection with Christ and God that supposedly is to begin with these events at the “end of time.” To interpret this symbolic prophecy in literal terms and have the Christian believers actually flying through the atmosphere to meet Jesus in the physical clouds of this planet is a gross and lamentable misunderstanding and misinterpretation of God’s word.
The fact is that these things have all been fulfilled just as Paul prophesied, and just as Jesus Christ prophesied. The martyrs were vindicated and avenged when the murdering and unbelieving nation of Judea was totally destroyed in the war events of AD. 67-70. The Christians were spiritually and physically victorious over the persecutors, as God used the Romans as his tool to eradicate the threat to the Church’s existence. The Great Day of the Lord occurred and the Christians did meet Christ in the spiritual air of glorious victory as the old age came to its final end in the fulfillment of all these things.
Hebrews 11:35
Women received their dead raised to life again. Others were tortured, not accepting deliverance, that they might obtain a better resurrection.
The 'better resurrection' being referred to is that resurrection of 'rising first', as Paul taught in 1 Thes 4:13-17 and John revealed in Revelation 20
This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection.
@@ophiuchus9071 It is true that placing the prophesied resurrection (whether perceived as spiritual or physical) in the far future cannot comfort the physically and mentally oppressed people. As you say, those who died in Christ and those living in Christ were already spiritually resurrected. But how can a symbolic resurrection comfort them? A symbolic resurrection of what? What did it symbolize that they didn't already realize?
I'm sorry, but your interpretation condones delusionary and wishful thinking, which describes nothing of what it means to be in Christ and Christ in us.
@@sishrac A symbolic resurrection of what? What did it symbolize that they didn't already realize? end quote
The final step of OC Israel's resurrection was the promise made to them that they would be raised up when the judgment came, the resurrection of Christ itself is about being born again and made alive in the Spirit. They had that resurrection when the first believed.
at that time..
They were being persecuted by the OC Jews. That torture and persecutions the Jews were causing them was going to stop at the judgment and the Jews who were persecuting them would be destroyed The church would no longer be considered as heretics as the Jews had been labelling them. When the fake Jews under the law were destroyed, then the true Jews (Christians) would be seen as the true children of God. Their raising up was about them being delivered from their enemy.
The upcoming raising up of the church wasn't about individual bodies being literally raised. The believers already had their individual resurrection in Christ. The raising up they were waiting for as a church together was about the church being lifted out of the murderous hands of the Jews and the church then becoming seen for who they were, the children of God,. Them being raised was about them no longer being considered as heretics to be tortured and persecuted.
The resurrection was about the church having a transformation to being seen as the glory of God in the world.
LIke a sports team who comes from the bottom place and ends up winning the 'cup'. That team is no longer seen as losers but is now given the glory of being a winner
that team was raised up in glory at the end, but it first had to become a team
28 Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice
29 and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment. (John 5:28, ESV) i dont know of anyone that will marvel at someone that got a spiritual resurrection we cant even tell by looking at the person 😅 we all know that litteral graves opened and people came out walked around the city 😅 not spiritually walking around now thats the marvel jesus spoke of not unseen resurrection 😢😂 52 The tombs also were opened. And many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised,
53 and coming out of the tombs after his resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many. (Matthew 27:52, ESV)
I think, we who are alive and remain will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air when we die.
We live, we physically die, we are judged. Revelation 22:12 and 2 Corinthians 8:10.
I believe the first resurrection is being raised in Christ spiritually. Sealed by the Spirit, passing from death to life not experiencing the 2nd death.
What took place in Hades when Jesus was crucified?
Read Peter.
Believers were brought into the kingdom since Pentecost, 70 AD had nothing to do with being brought into the kingdom of Christ.
Colossians 1:13
For he has rescued us from the dominion of darkness and brought us into the kingdom of the Son he loves,
The believers were no longer in darkness once they received the HS.
1 Thessalonians 5:4
But you, brothers and sisters, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief.
No Christian martyr was ever in hades, hades means 'unseen' and the Christians are not unseen by God, it the OC Jews who went into the unseen and it wasn't when the died physically that this took place either, it was when they were alive on the earth.
Deut 32
19 The Lord saw this and rejected them
because he was angered by his sons and daughters.
20 “I will hide my face from them,” he said,
“and see what their end will be;
for they are a perverse generation,
children who are unfaithful.
Those first century OC Jews had God turn HIs face from them and that meant they were spiritually in the 'unseen'/hades concerning their covenantal relationship with God. hades has nothing to do with a place a person's soul went in their physical death. That theology is from the antichrist Catholic religion and it is a lie.
I looked up Isa 53:9 in the LXX interlinear and death is singular. Did Mike misspeak or I am missing something?
Psalms 16:10 Jesus the Christ(Messiah/Holy One)not abandoned in the grave.
Hosea 6:1-2 Another Messianic rising from the dead
Both are connected to Isaiah 53
So not singular as in death only.
There are hints to resurrection if I understand your question
@GRXMotorsPNW I'm not doubting the theological point Mike made. It's just a textual question. Thanatos (death) is singular whereas Mike said it was plural in that passage.
@@JR-rs5qs I didn’t say in the LXX see the SLT: And he will give with the unjust his grave, and with the rich in his deaths, for he did no violence, and no deceit in his mouth.
@@JR-rs5qs And he will give with the unjust his grave, and with the rich in his deaths, for he did no violence, and no deceit in his mouth. SLT.
@@michaelsullivan6868 Thanks for clarifying the translation you were using, Mike. I was looking it up in the LXX for my own benefit and death is singular. It appears the SLT is the only one that translates it plural and I wonder why since it's singular in the LXX and MT (which I trust much less). I agree with the theological point you were making but I'm thinking the SLT may be wrong on this one.
@MichaelSullivan when Jesus cry's out my God why have you forsaken me he wasn't separating himself from god he was Quoting scripture from psalms 22
it was old testament scripture prophesying the crucifixion of Christ
The only confusion I have is where does 2 Christians 5:8
"...absent from... present with...." fit in?
@duaneking273 Having the spirit here on earth is not related to absent from the body present with the Lord. Present with the Lord in my mind means dying in this life then gaining your glorified body and being physically in the presence of the Lord in Heaven. Therefore we would not go to Sheol or Hades. So my question was would that have been possible during Paul's writing ✍️ of Corinthians? Because unless I'm missing something the resurrection from Hades hadn't happened yet. Maybe I'm missing something
The deceased were already in the heavenly Jerusalem and were only waiting for the symbolic spiritual union with the NC believers. Outside the body, there is absence from the community of believers. But in the spirit of God, he was present with them. Blessing
@@markusmustermann1265 Could the deceased approach God per se without Christs mediation until their soul had been judged guilty or not guilty to inherit? Why would souls be under the alter waiting for vengeance and inheritance to be completed. and not partaking of the promises given to the churches regarding inheritance esp Rev 3:12, 3:20:21. Check 1st Peter out and see what he means by the soul wait g for Inheritance, cleansing, and salvation. Just a thought and blessing to you.
@@duaneking273 I'm not confused about what happens when we die now physical. We immediately gain a glorified body and arrived in Heaven physical. Scripture teaches our citizenship is in Heaven. I do not believe in a Future existence here on Planet Earth like partial preterist, dispensationalists and amillennialists believe. I'm a Full-Preterist. But 1 or 2 unanswered questions remain like does this physical reality end. My answer is likely yes. But how? Idk the Bible is silent. For now it's a springboard and soul making reality that gets us to Heaven. If I figure anything else out I'll say. Or maybe the good Dr. Gary knows or perhaps Mike or Don. I'll be watching 👀 😎 and listening in the mean time ⏲️
@@duaneking273 present spirituality but not physically. The glorified physical presence happens when our earthly body dies.
Michael Sullivan quite obviously doesn't know the Biblical end times.
Why’s that then🤔
@mikeworsley1773 if you knew the Bible and you heard what Mike said, then you would know that he doesn't know the Bible.
@@alanhales6369 sounds like a non answer
@@alanhales6369You said absolutely nothing of meaning or substance! You merely cast a aspersion most likely because you are a Futurist of some kind😬!
@GRXMotorsPNW if you knew the Bible, you would know how ignorant of the Bible Mike Sullivan is, you must be embarrassed beyond measure at your ignorance of the Bible.
Maybe, he which "hinders until he is taken out of the way' was none other than James the Just (the brother of Jesus and leader of the Nazoreans) who was murdered in 62 AD by being thrown down from the Temple. Afterward, the congregation left Jerusalem opening the door for matters in the priesthood to proceed leading to the revelation of the 'man of sin'.
If we look down to verse 7 for a moment, we hear paul say:
“For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so until he is taken out of the way.”
[2 Thes.2:7 NIV]
Here we understand that the first part of this mysterious event is underway even then, during the time that Paul was writing this letter to the Thessalonians.
To understand what Paul is referring to, we must realize that these prophecies concern Christ coming in vengeance against his enemies. The enemies can be generally categorized as any and all persecutors of his people on earth. We have seen how God used the Roman army to come against the Jewish state and
destroy it, but the pagan Romans were also persecutors of Christianity and were also included as subjects of the “coming in vengeance” of Christ.
This is one passage where this understanding is the key to the proper interpretation of the prophetic language. In verse 7, Paul was referring to the current state of the Roman authorities, and he gives us, prior to the fact, an accurate description of what would occur between the time he wrote this letter and the events of AD. 70. Let us see how this interpretation works.
First, in verse 7, we hear that the “secret power of lawlessness” is already at work. What is this power? Any time we are studying a Bible prophecy that has as part of its subject matter the concepts of “law” or “lawlessness,” we can be certain that it is referring to only one thing - the law, the Law of Moses. Here, the power of lawlessness is simply that power in the world of the prophecy that is not subject to the Law. In this case, that power is Rome. It is called the “secret” power because this is a prophecy and Rome was not yet at war with Judea at the time Paul was saying this. Since the power 5 not yet being revealed against them, it is referred to as “secret.” This lawless power - the Gentile, human power of the Roman Empire - would be unleashed against the rebelling Jews, but not until certain things happened. Paul goes on to describe this:
“…But the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way…”
With the Roman Empire as the subject, it makes sense to look to the Roman authorities to see who this “one” is. At the time Paul wrote this letter in A.D. 52 or 53, the emperor Claudius was on the throne. He was succeeded one or two years later in A.D. 54 by Nero Caesar.
If we apply this to the prophecy, we see that Claudius is the “one who now holds it back” - that is, the prophesied events will not occur while Claudius is on the throne. He will “continue to do so” - that is, to restrain the events from occurring - until “he is taken out of the way. In 54, he is removed and Nero comes to the throne.
end quote
What about the millennium 😅
This video is full of information and requires watching it several times! I think Mike Sullivan is on to something about Jesus' bodily resurrection.
Lot of information in data in this video
Aren't you falling into the Jesus v Paul nonsense by continuing to use that terminology. Isn't it actually Matthew v Paul or Matthew v Thessalonians. "They" are using a childish tactic by taking the misinterpretations based upon Matthew's Gospel and calling it Jesus' eschatology and oitting it against that of the eschatology in Paul's epistles.