Can You Cut Aluminum on a Desktop CNC?
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- Опубліковано 27 сер 2024
- Aluminum is strong, lightweight, corrosion resistant, and one of the easier metals to cut on a CNC so tackling this has been on our to do list for a while and we’re SO excited to incorporate this into more projects. Tools / materials we used are below! 👇
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6061 Aluminum
■ Yield Strength: 35,000 psi
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One channel i MORE THAN ENOUGH!
No, six.
As a cnc machinist I'd say you need to slow that feedrate way wayway down. Aluminum gums up on a milling bit. Even the large ones I run they don't plow into aluminum that fast. Most the stuff I run is anything from mild steel to stainless to tool steel. Also a wood router turns at a much much higher rpm than the spindle on a mill does. Running a bit like that at that rate of speed doesn't give it a chance to slice away at the aluminum which is why you are getting such high vibration and the bit is studdering. Picture it like trying to slice a tomato with a kitchen knife by simply slinging the knife at it as fast as you can vs slowly drawing the blade across the surface of it. Just some friendly advice
meh, they did it, its pretty accurate and by the end of it they understood how slow you should be going. just a bad finish, maybe they dont own a better bit for finishing. still in an industrial set up, this was what? 4hours? looked like it went into pretty l8 hours so maybe more. these machines are just so inefficient it boggles my mind
@@eueueueu21 yeah I wasn't knocking them, just offering advice to help out for next time. Even in the end it was moving way to fast. If the piece was in a clamp and the Carvy used ballscrews for movement it'd have the strength to machine better, but its made to just carve wood so I doubt it does. But what I said about the rpm of the router is definitely the biggest issue, you just can't run those milling bits that fast and get them to work. They may be able to slow that spindle speed down to a workable rpm if it was independently controlled with a speed controller that they could manually adjust, but I'm not sure if the router would have enough torque at the low rpm it'd need to be turning at. Even on the big machines I run the feedrates are much slower when we run aluminum than mild steel.
@sinformat I'm sorry but I have to say you are wrong. Aluminum needs a high spindle speed and feedrate. The reason why your current tool endmills are running slower is because they are bigger. The larger the tool the slower it will be run due to the higher surface contact. The issue that they are having is rigidity of the setup, there is too much projection from the endmill and its a small bench top machine which doesn't help. That being said, good job @EvanAndKatelyn for giving this a go. Next time try a shorter 3 flute endmill that is uncoated carbide.
Just so you know where I am coming from, I'm a Manufacturing Engineer/CNC Programmer
Thanks for the tips! We know there's definitely room to keep dialing it in and we want to experiment and learn even more 👍🙂
if the tool gums up you need lubricant, ethanol works great but it'll mess up an mdf spoil board.
As someone who works with cnc all week the sound that little thing makes hurts my soul
I was absolutely floored with their enthusiasm hahaha I'm dying inside ... But if you consider they're not industry insiders, they have probably very very minimal knowledge, it humourous lol Ignorance is Bliss? :P
I couldn't make it though the whole video.
Me too.
Same
I feel u
at first I was cringing hard watching this. but then I realized, we all where there at one point in time. Watching the learning process was the best part. You have to fail to learn. The machine is as rigid as a wet noodle but by finding the limitations and working within them it was entertaining to watch. Sure the endmill stick out was way to long, but how much Z travel is there? maybe that was a reason for the stickout. Sure the motor did not have the power and torque required, but that is where the lighter cuts came into play. It was a process that worked out in the end. Good job guys.
Yay!! Yeah that was the intent of the video. Showing our literal first time and sharing that and slowly learning. Excited to make another attempt with all the lessons learned from this first try 😄
"The googly eyes aren't rattling." And therein lies their purpose: vibration monitors.
That might explain why the industrial sized CNC router where I work has giant dinner plate sized googly eyes on it...
Yes!! That's... Totally why we put googly eyes on him 👀
EvanAndKatelyn You should totally sell E&K branded googly eyes. 😂
such a good idea. I love the low tech solutions combined with high tech tools
@@nemisis714 are you kidding ....like half my family are machineists and my uncle is a cnc machinest ( idk about the rest little contact becuse ya know life gets in the way also most have died and where old enough i know they where manual machinests) if they have been holding out about this i will loose my mind this is way to funny to not tell me about
Ohhh AvE would make a party out of this.
Most little machines, Carvey/Nomad can't handle 1/4" endmills well. Not enough torque. 1/8" is much nicer.
And 0.125" endmill --> 12.5 IPM --> 12.5 thou DOC. Just as a guideline.
Beat me to it. Definitely try a smaller diameter end-mill, and possibly slowing down the travel speed.
I'd love to see them actually test this theory. It's not that I don't trust you, but I like their videos and comment interaction. Does this also apply to the x-carve?
Winston Moy I was going to mention depth of cut is way more important than cut speed (IMHO). They showed the speed but not how deep the cut was. I’ve never run across a situation where slowing things down compensated for a DOC that’s too deep. But that’s just my experience.
cyberreefguru I've come to the same conclusions for hobby machines. I generally figure out the limits of an adaptive clear depth wise, back off until I'm comfortable, then inch up on my optimal load.
Brodey Sheppard This also applies to the xcarve but beware because it is a different machine you may get different tolerances and in this case your spindal / router as well as your stepper motors, even your gantry size due to the same method of movement being used for each xcarve machine of a different size will change a lot in making faster and more reliable cuts. Also in this video I believe from the sounds it appears the workpiece most likely wasn’t as tight as it maybe should be so make sure to keep that in mind.
You guys are doing great! I messed up WAY more on my first few CNC projects.
A couple things I learned early on, is taking small cuts but at faster feed rate, cleans up the surface finish and makes the bits last longer.
On smaller machines 2mm of plunge is quite aggressive, I would always go with 1mm step down especially for aluminum, and just have more layers at a faster feed rate.
Keep up the awesome work!
Thank you so much for the tips and encouragement!! ❤️❤️
That first attempt ripped a piece of my soul straight out of me.
us too. us too...
So many engineers commenting on here saying they are cringing at this being done incorrectly. I found it so interesting and while I definitely found the sounds concerning, I didn't really know what was wrong except maybe too aggressive? Good to read comments from those who know and learn something here too! I love seeing first attempts at methods because many of us are also at that level.
Link found the square! You can now check the dungeon walls to see if they are properly square, as well as other evil architecture and items. Very useful
bahahahaha! I'm picturing the text bubble pop up and Navi flying around in the background as you read it
Great to see you guys “plunging” into metal on the CNC. That anxiety will always be there a little, so just keep at it.
Haha thanks! Yeah wood is easy breezy but metal still has us at the edge of our seats!
I'm a tool maker(machinist) if you want to keep cutting aluminum you may want an endmill with less flute length and a 4 flute Endmill since you have a limited speed.
With your pockets it would help if you drilled your corners first.
Good luck and have fun
You guys are on the right path for sure. I have had really good results cutting aluminum with a router using single flute bits. O flute is what some manufactures call them. They allow proper chip breaking and for the higher RPM spindles. Oh and use 3/16" that dramatically reduces the spindle power needed.
A really nice thing is that there are definitely a few things you can do to get better results. I'm sure I'm not the only one who is suggesting these things, but maybe my post will reinforce what's prolly already been said...
Any time you can reduce the stickout you will get better results. This is true 99% of the time. Reduced stickout = better rigidity = better results. Thinking about the stickout is probably best done when you're actually buying the bits, because once you have them you're kinda stuck. Look for "stub" end mills.
Using a smaller diameter bit would, of course, reduce the load on the machine and improve your chances of getting good results. Carbide is super strong, even tiny end mills are harder to break than you might expect. (Though, big ones will break surprisingly easily sometimes.) A really nice thing about smaller bits is that they cost much less, so buying multiples is less painful.
When thinking about your cut parameters, I recommend kerping the chip load (the "feed per tooth" setting) above 10 microns (0.01 mm) at minimum with a goal of getting up to about 40 microns. After you've decided on your target chip load, try to decide on an appropriate spindle speed to use. "The faster the better" isn't necessarially true in my non-professional experience, though I see other people who seem to think otherwise. I'm guessing you guys will have to turn the spindle speed *down* quite a bit, but I'm not sure what the range of the Carvey is. When cutting aluminum, I'd say there is no minimum and no maximum spindle speed, don't worry about the bit's suggested "surface speed" (SFM or SMM) - the bit will cut at any speed, just find a speed that your spindle "likes" and pay more attention to the chip load. As for width of cut, I'd suggest using 25% as much as you can. Sandvik says 70% is best (but that's probably way too much for the Carvey) and 25% is a very close second. 50% is the worst. Once you've established those parameters, which you can do before you even put the bit in the collet, you only have the depth of cut to worry about. Start shallow and if the machine isn't having any problems, imcrease it on the next run. If a shallow depth isn't working, try something crazy small, like 100 microns (0.1 mm). If the machine isn't doing well at 100 microns, the bit is probably too big, unfortunately. It might be worthwhile to try a different spindle speed (change the feed rate too, to ensure the chip load doesn't fall below 10 microns).
Maritool has a 1/8" end mill with a 1/4" shank that I think is pretty killer. The one I have has 1/2" of flute length, which is prolly going to be enough for many projects, and the 1/4" shank makes it good and rigid.
Lastly, after you've found a bit/feed/speed/DOC/WOC that works, you may encounter "chip weld". I'd recommend against changing your cut parameters in response to chip weld, instead try to improve your chip evacuation. Set up an air stream or something, just get the chips our of there, getting them out of the path of the cut is basically all that matters. (If the stock material is getting really hot, that could contribute to chip weld too and should be dealt woth somehow.)
One more thing: the aluminum alloy matters. 6061 is good, but the more expensive (and much stronger but also less resistant to corrosion) 7075 actually machines better, in my limited experience.
Thank you for all of the tips!! This really does help a lot. We had a hard time finding shorter bits but definitely agree that that would be better, and we'd like to try 1/8" too! We actually have thought about modifying the carvey for dust collection so maybe that would help with chip evacuation. Thank you!!
I went to look for the bit I was talking about, but couldn't find it easily, so I had to search Google with the model number. The exact Maritool bit that I'm using has the following model number, in case you'd like to check it out...
1021-.125-.563-SP-ZrN
It's really cool that you guys read and reply to so many of your comments! (Also, sorry that this post turned into a novel!)
I figured I'd mention how I decided that I liked that end mill enough to enthusiastically recommend it. Short version: I needed a long-reach 1/8" end mill, tested a few, and that one was the best for my needs/abilities. (Longer version below*)
I saw some comments suggesting you use WD-40 and figured I'd give you my 2¢. I'm a hobbyist so that might be all this is worth... First, IF you're going to spray something on there, WD-40 is actually one of the better choices (from what I've read and seen a tiny bit) as compared to other lubricating sprays. It's funny, the nearly genericized product WD-40 is better for cutting aluminum than many, many of the other lubricating sprays out there. (It might not be better for general lubricating, but it's better for aluminum cutting.) Now, with that said, I agree with what it seems you've already learned: spraying with liquid may make things worse. I've found that adding a little bit of liquid to small granules of aluminum basically makes "aluminum mud", which just ends up sticking to everything and making a mess. So, unless the chips are larger or unless you're going to be spraying enough to actually get the chips away from the cutter, it's probably better to leave it dry.
OK, I'll just end this here before this post really gets out of hand. Good luck!
* I am/was working on a project that needed some small features cut in the bottom of a somewhat deep pocket. Basically, I needed an 1/8" end mill that I could use with at least 1.5" of stickout. I had a few very similar 1/8" shank, 1/8" flute diameter end mills from Harvey Tool, Lakeshore Carbide, Maritool, Shars, and Destiny. There might have been a couple more in the mix too. I tried them all and, for all intents and purposes, I couldn't find a speed/feed/depth that I was happy with for a single one of them. I'm an amateur, so maybe I didn't change some parameter that I should have, but one way or another I just couldn't find anything that I was happy with (and since this was using a fancy CNC mill, I figured the bit was the largest determining factor in my troubles). I did note, however, that the Maritool bit worked the best out of what I had. Then it occurred to me, maybe there exists a bit with a larger shank that necks down to the 1/8" flute diameter that I wanted. I had seen other bits like that (many tiny bits have a 1/8" shank) so I figured maybe the same idea would be used in a scaled-up size. I looked around, but came up mostly empty-handed, but I did find ONE. And best of all, the one I was able to find was also made by Maritool, the company that made the "normal" 1/8" bit that worked the best for me. Anyway, I bought one and tried it, and the difference was night and day. I'll just mention that I have no affiliation with Maritool, just in case this might look like I'm shilling for them or something. My current favorite 1/4" bit is from Niagara Cutter and my current favorite 1/2" bit is from Garr Tool, I also have favorites from Lakeshore Carbide and Shars too (I LOVE the performance I get out of Shars' standard-length 1/2" aluminum end mills). Personally, I haven't had good luck with Harvey Tools' "normally shaped" tools, but I do use *several* of their "wacky shaped" end mills. I've also heard good things about YG-1 from a lot of sources (Winston Moy is one of them, I believe). I bought one of their bits but haven't tried it yet.
"Something will happen"
Such wise words from Evan
Yes, my husband, he has a way with words 😋
To save yourselves some time, tension, and damaged end mills, look up the formula for the Ideal Feed Rate (aka Speeds and Feeds)for the tool and material you are working with. This is calculated based on what size chips you cut off with each pass, and can help you tune the cutting of new materials quickly. You need to know what material you are cutting (for the chip size - you will be looking this up from a table online or in a Machinery Handbook), the diameter of your tool, the number of flutes, and the RPM of your cutter. When you have the right RPM and feed rate, your cutting will be quieter and smoother.
Lots more to look into and dial in! Thanks!
You need to switch to 1/8" end mills and slow your feed rate by 30% . Be very careful with high fees rates with aluminum as the cuttings can weld themselves to the mill tip especially if your not lubricating with an aluminum cutting fluid. Carve with a good selection of mills can run $2,500 or more.
Definitely down to try an 1/8" bit and dial in the speeds a bit more. Our bit had a coating that should negate the need for fluid, and the chips we're the right size, so I think we're ok on that front. Thanks!
That's a common misconception. It does not totally negate the need for a cutting fluid, rather help keep chips from sticking even with coolant. The coatings also have a specific temperature that they "activate".
I go the idea of starting to put on googly eyes on to see if my machines are shaking too aggressively. Added bonus is it makes everything extra cute
Shorten the tool length will make it rigid, which is the magic word in machining, rigidity is essential. Slower rpms when shatter is present along with a slower feed.
We tried to find a stubbier bit but weren't having any luck. Thanks for the tips!
You guys are awesome! I love how the format of your videos has evolved over time. From design, to engineering, to education, you are doing incredible work!
Thank you! That really means a lot to us!
I commend you for trying and getting this done... And while alot of people have advice and want to help, some of it must be taken carefully...
Firstly, I'm coming from experience as I have a workshop with 9 cnc machine centres and 17 cnc lathes with an assortment of manual machines. 21 years in this industry along with having built my own 3d printers and hobby machines for home over the years...
While your machine was capable of getting it done, and others are watching this, you should know that that vibration will destroy your machine in fast order... The accuracy will evaporate quickly if you cut like that. The vibration is not coming from endmill deflection primarily since the machine does not have enough rigidity to overwhelm the endmill rigidity (seen by the walk around on the plunge and jump backs). That means the endmill loads and unloads by amount of slop/flexibility in the machine... That will wear your drive and guide system very quickly.
Secondly, endmill plunging should really be outlawed... They are not designed to really do that, however if you must... Then the plunge has to be ridiculously slow... General rule of thumb for me to start is 1/6th plunge feed to mill feed on an industrial machine... On my home machines which I've built very rigid I use 1/10th if I'm lazy to predrill. The centre of the endmill does not have the same cutting speed(Pi X smaller diameter vs larger) as the outside skirt and you have to work the the weakest/slowest part of machine/tool always. A ramp or helix entry is better but still not as good as no load face entry.
As for fear of 'gummyness' , maybe a peck style cycle to allow some cooling? But best bet is to either enter work from outside the job, or in case of the pockets, drill an entry point with a twist drill where endmill can enter into and only cut with side loads... Never plunging loads...
Thirdly... Everything is relative... Spindle speed, feed, depth of cut...
You can't have it all at max and expect it to work well... Aluminium requires a good bite per tooth, especially without coolant, but your depth of cut is simply too large... Try tiny depths of cut and you will be better off (0.2mm etc).
Industrial machines have the same limitation, the difference being that everything is bigger, stronger, beefier and allows for higher speeds, feeds and depth of cuts, but you still can't set it to max everything and expect it to get a good result ;)
Good luck ;)
We really appreciate all the tips and knowledge you've shared - thank you so much!!
for such materials lubricating is a MUST
Lol "Our square is awesome and our chisels are crap!" - Danny
Our poor chisels...
Hey! I'm pretty experienced with cutting aluminum on shopbot cnc routers and I can tell you from experience that onsrud aluminum cutters do an excellent job. A final pass shaving off 0.003" with a 2 or 4 flute endmill (I like harvey tool and YG-1 cutters) gives a mirror finish. Cheers!
If you want it to cut safely and unattended then the 1/8 cutter as short as your deepest cut will make a world of difference.
There is always a way to make any machine cut. You could likely do steel on that machine.
I program and set up CNC to cut one offs all day and adaptive clearing is the greatest thing ever. Being able to control radial engagement practically eliminates chatter. You can even do the outside contour with the adaptive clearing (boundaries are your friend here). Also you can measure in your CAD the difference in Z on the ramp helix and adjust your angle until you get more manageable cuts for interior pockets..
Thank you for th tips! Definitely want to try an 1/8" cutter next. Appreciate the encouragement and shared knowledge!
@@EvanAndKatelyn Happy to help! Don't be surprised if your post processor/NC estimates very long procedures. My wire machine at work has been cutting for 38 hours and it just passed 90% . I love automatic machines
Dang 38 hours! That's crazy!
That is really cool. My son wants to build one. He has been talking about it for a year or so and I am sure he has decided to build one, he just needs the space. Our 4'x9' CNC plasma table works great, so I am sure that we could build a CNC router that will handle 4'x8' wood or aluminum. We cut aluminum shapes on the plasma, but can't alter the thickness and have to put it on one of the mills to cut grooves.
We'd love to have a plasma cutter too! But yeah it's super nice to be able to cut different thicknesses. Good luck on the build!
I am also interested in making parts and bits from aluminum, perhaps you might be interested in what i plan on doing but as yet have not got round to it. Aluminum melts as a fairly low temperature compared to other metal, there are lots of DIY furnaces on youtube. All you'd have to do is imprint the design into sand, melt the aluminum and pour into mould. The thing i love about this is one can use cans etc.
That sounds awesome! We've played around with melting pewter before but never aluminum
Great work guys! I broke about 30 end mills before I got it right.
Also, hot tip! I cut at:
Feed rate - 900mm/sec (35.4 Inches/Minute)
Stepdown / Depth of Cut 0.3mm - (Max)
Stepover / Optimal Load / Width of Cut - Half the diameter of the End mill you're using
You can set the Stepover/Stepdown in the 'Passes' tab on F360 and play with that to really dial in each toolpath so you can leave the machine running and trust that it won't go off piste! I've even got mine set up so I can run it from my phone and go out but check on the machine wherever I am.
oh, and a single flute end mill will be the best for aluminium - I got a pack of 10 from china on eBay for like $20
Thanks for the tips! Man, so much conflicting advice about flutes though - some folks are swearing by 4, some say 2 was the right choice, and now a vote for single!
haha true! I had the same issue but did find that a single flute was the best of all, especially as I use a desktop (stepcraft) CNC as well, they're not well designed to take the vibration that a bigger end mill with more flutes seems to generate. Also I'd recommend not going over about 3-4mm diameter for your End Mill. I'll be uploading something in the next week or so with 1,2 and 4 flute end mills and you'll see (and hear) the difference!
Her face when he told her he missed the shot was fantastic. Best moment I've seen all day. I might've rewound and watched that three or four times. :)
You guys are are challenging yourselves constantly. Love it.
Hahaha!! Glad you found as much amusement in that moment as I did :P Thank you!
love that you guys showed us your screw ups and your learning curve, thank you for having a video that was a not perfect the first time you tried something
"machine our own robots..." and my brain automatically went to "oooo, colab with simone giertz?" hehe
we would not be opposed! We've already played tetris with her and her robot arm so it's the natural progression :P
That's EXACTLY where my mind went, too. :D
This needs to happen
The side of me that loves seeing people get into the trade was extremely happy with this video, but the side of me that programs cnc machines for a living hurt a little bit. But I enjoyed it, trial and error, trial and error. It’s one of those things you never completely figure out and that’s why I love it.
We are no strangers to trial and error! Gotta start somewhere right?
I love watching you guys make things, so much enthusiasm! Brightens up any day.
Thank you so much!
I hate having metal work in the shop because I know I'll never get all the shavings out so bravo for the confidence to deal with that
Luckily the Carvey is self contained so there was pretty much no mess - other times we've cut metal on our miter saw and it's all over the place haha
@@EvanAndKatelyn yeah your recent videos are convincing me to go out and buy one but at the moment i just have the big industrial set with no shield that was left by the previous owner. It's a monster and can cut through anything but got the shavings
Maybe get a little Carvey for quick work and build a big enclosure for the beast!
Hey Evan And Katelyn, long time viewer of your channel. Recently I've bought a CNC machine and remembered this old video of yours. It's been great re-watching all the old content, and seeing the growth throughout your UA-cam journey. Thank you for all the content, and all the good deeds from the Kevins. (ps. I will always randomly sing Resin Time anytime/anywhere haha)
I have been running a couple of chineezium routers for about 6 years on both fun personal projects and work production. They can be a bit tricky when it comes to cutting aluminum. But they can work pretty well when you dial in the speeds, feeds and cutter size. They don't like 1/4" or larger cutters on aluminum, stick with 3/16" or smaller. We run mostly 3/16" 2 flute center cutting at the full 20,000 rpm, cut depth is set to .035", stepover about 40%, feed rate @ 35 ipm and plunge rate @ 2.5 ipm. I know I'm bit behind the times on this, but I just ran across it and thought my past frustration experience could be of help. I also didn't seen any new machining vids and thought you might have gotten frustrated with it. ;-)
Keep the cutting tool length as short as you can. This will reduce the amount of chatter. Some sort of lubricant will help reduce the build up of material on your cutter (WD40 or Kerosene can be used). Also there are different grades of aluminium some fabrication grades some machinable grades. 6060 or 6061 are common machinable grades. if you get a fabrication grade it wont machine easily and will gum up the cutter. Putting a drill in your machine and pre drilling holes where you plunge into the material can help reduce chatter when you plunge. Increasing the rpm can reduce the load on the tool but if you go too fast you increase the risk of material gumming up on the cutter so you need to experiment with that to get the optimum speed. Also less flutes on the cutter will give more room for the material escape and help reduce build up of material in the flutes. If you have a blunt cutter don't even bother trying to mill aluminium with it.
Hope this helps.
The reason why you are getting that amount of "chader" vibration is because of the direction you are cutting it is called climb milling witch is cutting in the direction of the rotation of the cutter.
Ah yeah, we weren't sure if the machine would be rigid enough to do conventional cutting
Thanks for being real and showing failures too. You guys rock!
Thank you! We've also gotta start somewhere!
For some random reason, I thought it gonna catch in fire, sorry, hahahahah Oh, the slapping hands… the innuendos, hahahahaha
Thank goodness there was no fire involved!
"Surface finish is pretty good " Lol
I've just bought a used Carvey myself so it's funny this video should come up in my feed :)
I would probably suggest using a 3 flute endmill rather then a two flute. it should help in reducing the chip load and will work better for slotting.
Ah interesting, there's been a lot of mixed opinions in the comments about flute number. Some say 2 is the way to go, some say 4, some say 3. Looks like we need to do more digging!
You guys are the chip and Joanna of tinkering!
aw thank you!
This mirrors my journey so far with the desktop CNC. The small spindle motors stall easily and then the feedrate is all wrong because it isn't turning anymore.
Cool! Glad you got it to work!!!! There's a lot of advice in the comments and much of it is the same things i'd try ... smaller bit, lower rpm and much lower feed rates. Maybe a followup to this would be good for a collab with This Old Tony .... if you want to mill metal or travel through time using a lathe, he's your guy. Cheers!!
Haha yes we love his videos!
I love that you put eyes on everything
Haha googly eyes make everything better!
A L U M I N U M. *Cries in British*
I looked it up. Both aluminum and aliminium are accepted in the english language. Ofcourse we prefer the brittisch English as it sounds more classy :) So then it is aluminium
I love videos when you show the fails and how you corrected it. Learning !!
Haha that's a good thing because this is probably not our first fail! Excited to try again with all the new knowledge!!
Tool rigidity is a big key as well as work holding downward force on the aluminum and shorten the length of your endmill as much as much as possible
We had the bit as far in as it could go... Maybe we need to find shorter bits?
EvanAndKatelyn they also make endmill a specifically for aluminum which might help
Great topic and nicely demonstrated. The accompanying graphics and titles are excellent for those really trying to learn.
Thanks! Wanted to include the actual settings in the video so folks can see what was changed, what didn't work, etc
Makes a manual mill look really easy to use.
DOC should have been a bigger concern than cutting feeds. If you go too slow you risk wearing out the cutter too soon, generating too much heat, or even work hardening your piece. I usually run 30 in/min with a 0.005” (sometimes less) DOC on my X-Carve (should also be noted I use a 1/8” bit, which I think someone else mentioned down below) with good results. Hard to get away from chatter on these less rigid machines, but with a little cleanup you can make some nice looking parts.
Thank you so much for the tips!
Kind of fun video . I think this will get kids into making things . Stay happy kids .
Thanks! We do hope to make stuff not so intimidating in the hopes that others won't be scared to try it, kids included :)
Great to share your enthusiasm, wonder, trials, successes and little failures.
End result ? Definately a win.!
This isn't just about making a component, its about discovery-stepping-stones.
Delightful really.
thank you!! more than happy to share the process as we figure it out, even if it starts out a bit shaky (that's an understatement.. ha!)
Get a granite test plate and some diamond paste to finish flattening and cleaning up that aluminum square.
Coming from a somewhat experienced Machinist. The noise it makes while cutting it terrifying.
Good to see I'm not the only one struggling with cutting metal on a cnc
With how this video started out, I was pretty sure you would not end up with a product remotely usable, let along as accurate as it is. Nice job!
Haha we we're surprised too! Thanks!
Good angle, but it's rough as rough can be. Use a shorter tool, preferably carbide and preferably with more flutes. All of that will help to reduce vibration and therefore reduce resonances within the structure of the machine. Which in turn, will improve the surface finish a lot. And possibly allow you to feed the cutter faster, as the extra cutting edge means smaller chips and reduced pressure on both the tool and workpiece. Beware feeding too fast though and of higher spindle speeds either of which can cause the metal to weld itself to the cutter.
Thank you for the tips! We tried to find a smaller tool but had a hard time finding one.
@@EvanAndKatelyn Out of interest, how does the head hold the tool? is it a collet or something like a drill chuck? Or does the tool lock in place some other way?
To be honest, if you're just cutting wood, you could just grind/cut off half of the flutes' length with a dremel or similar. as long at the end is reasonably close to a right angle with the sides it should work ok. But you could help it a little by grinding the central 'web', as we call it, so that the cutting edges almost meet in the middle.
Check out this excellent video how to. ua-cam.com/video/XYfJeg41t3M/v-deo.html
Was I the only one that said out loud "no screws are not a good idea" when they started talking about do that. Where's Winston when you need him? | E&K I think you guys need a video with Winston.
We're friends with Winston, and we definitely need to absorb more of his CNC knowledge!
I would go for a smaller end mill, and a shorter one (stubby). With the very low rigidity of the machine that long cutter is a problem and a smaller one would allow you do adaptive clearing for all operations, except for the cleanup pass.
Yes, we definitely wanna try a shorter endmills and maybe go for 1/8". We had a hard time finding a stubby one though. Guess we need to keep hunting. Thanks!
On a machine this weak/light and small you need to use smaller endmills and choke up as much as possible, meaning the stickout on the cutter should only be as much as you need for the deepest cut. Try a helix with very small angle instead of helix as well.
I think we need to find stubbier bits, we had this one in as far as it could go but it was still a little long. Thanks for the tips!
Nice work. A shorter end mill could make a huge difference in the chatter and surface finish. I have a small CNC and was learning this 6 months ago!
Sweet! Where did you get your shorter version from? We got our bits from Amazon and McMaster-Carr
Next time, use a shorter end mill, 3 flutes, and spray a bit of cutting fluid on the work piece first
I have an old Haas cnc mill and the spindle load meter doesn't work. I think the googly eye will definitely solve my machine problem. Thanks for the video!
Googly eyes solve all. Thanks!
Your tool is extended way to far I would also use a stubby endmill. Go for a 4 flute and maybe a smaller diameter. looks like you are using 3/8 I would go for 1/4 . Another thing worth trying is a fine pitch rougher but that would require change out to finishing endmill. They do have rougher-finisher endmills. One last thing go for carbide not high speed steel. Good luck
We had the bit I'm as far as we could go - tried to find shorter ones but didn't have much luck. Thanks for the tips!
www.maritool.com/Cutting-Tools-End-Mills-Finishers-Square-End-3-fl.-sqr-end-TICN-coated/c78_79_80_106/index.html
Why four flutes? Wouldn’t they clog up easier? Also, HSS is more forgiving than carbide when it comes to making mistakes. Carbide will chip and break easier
robert panco it Would only if they where really pushing it on the feed rate and that was not the case ( I suggested 4 flute since this are more beefier cross section of a two flute is very thin ) problem that they are fighting here is vibration , long tool ,thin tool cross section ,week machine , etc.. . O was really impressed that it did anything actually . I was expecting that motor to just jump out of the mounting bracket 😁
A 3 flute is the better choice. It will not chip weld as easily as a 4 flute in aluminum and it will be less likely to chatter.
I hope I don’t sound condescending, but you guys are so cute... and so much fun to watch and learn from.
note to self, don't get carvey for aluminum cutting.
For a first attempt I think it went pretty well actually lol. I think with a short 1/8" endmill running a little slower with less depth per cut we can get some really smooth cutting 😀👍
In my experience aluminum is rather gummy and easily cloggs 4 flute mills I would go with a 2 or 3 flute mill.
Also in cnc operation rigidity is extremely important. Longer tools happen to be less rigid so it is best practice to use the shortest tool possible.
As for your speeds and feeds your little mill is not particularly rigid and as a result cannot take the strain of high feed rates on metal. Your motor I would think also is a high speed low torque type so I would not use more than 1/2 of the bit to actively cut where possible due to your motor not being able to handle more while keeping the rpms up.
This was a 2 flute which seemed to be right - the chips were a good size and all that. We had the bit in as far as we could but if we could find shorter bits we definitely would be down to try that! Thanks for the tips!
@@EvanAndKatelyn
I agree there
It also dawns on me that some other UA-camr start their mills in a pre drilled hole to prevent walking of the mill bit.
Roughing endmills work a lot better too for a lot of things, even in a decent sized 3 axis milling machine if you try to go crazy with a normal endmill the cutter will vibrate (we call that chatter) but a roughing endmill does not. www.mscdirect.com/product/details/65770950 There is an example in 1/8". Selection in smaller sizes is limited so in the past working full time doing cnc I often used what would fit into the area being cut and it worked well :-).
The "corncob" type shape means each flute takes a little different cut...this helps avoid vibration. Would rough to within .001 of size then finish with a regular endmill.
meant to say .01" of finished size not .001"
This will undoubtedly open up a whole new world for you. "I've got good news and bad news", great play Evan, I'm gonna have to remember that one.
Yes we think so too, it's gonna be really handy now that we know we can do it 😁
CNC machining is all about rigidity. Your endmill is longer than it needs to be and it's sticking out of the collet WAY more than it should. If you can, buy an endmill with the least amount of flute length that you need and stick it in the collet as far up as you can while still maintaining clearance between the collet nut and your workpiece/fixturing.
We had it in the collet is far as we could go, and looked for stubbier endmills but had a hard time finding one. if you have any suggestions about where to get stubby ones, please let us know! Thanks
MSC industrial supply is where we get most of our stuff. McMaster Carr has a good selection too but they're a bit pricier.
Thank you!
And when the cat robots take over the world, we know where it all started.
Guilty. Our robots would definitely be cats
No no no. Mechanical cats are so 2010. What you really want to get into is bioengineering, then develop a cat with thumbs. That way they're self replicating, and already have a good adaptive learning controller perfected by hundreds of thousands of years of evolution.
Great to see the experiments! Look into trochoidal milling, 1/8" bits, 1 or 2 flutes, better chip clearing, and mist lubrication to improve results. The advice and experience for conventional mills doesn't work well on these flexy, small, high RPM spindle machines, and aluminum presents some special opportunities and problems.
Thank you for the tips!
So you guys are doing what is called conventional toolpaths. Meaning the lead edge of the end mill is being crammed in to the material. Reversing your toolpaths would result in what's called a climb cut toolpath. You guys may be doing conventional cuts because of the "slop" in these desktop mills. However, if your machine is tight enough for a climb cut toolpath I would recommend that. Nice work on tackling something new, I enjoyed the video. 👍
Yep yep, we were doing conventional because it's not as rigid as an industrial machine. We are open to trying it though!
Dont mind me. Just having an EvanandKatelyn marathon
The official Inventables website even suggest some feedrates which you can see here:
"Safe limits for Aluminum are as follows: 5”/min feed rate, 2.5”/min plunge rate, 0.003”/pass with minimum 0.0625” milling bit."
I guess you run small Carvey a little bit too fast lul
Haha yeah we definitely pushed it past it's limits 😁 but pretty happy with how it all worked!
Looks like a lot of your problem is that you're losing steps. You could decrease load on the bit by getting a smaller bit, maybe adjust feeds&speeds, or perhaps you could try upping the current to the stepper motors for stronger holding power.
Think we might also go with a shorter bit next time but we're definitely excited to try it again soon!!
Everyone is talking about the diameter and size of the endmill and they're right but your spindle is not so powerful too, so you need to keep very low speed rate compared to other CNC of the same shape of yours because your spindle can't handle much torque , keep it slow rates and use 1/8" endmill with 1 or two flutes and a bit of coolant mist even WD-40 will do wonders , carbide is very strong and high temperature resistant but never try to cool with airflow to close to the endmill because the variation of temperature will break the carbide
Definitely lots more to dial in - I think we'll switch to a stubby 1/8", although we had a hard time finding anything shorter than the one we got. Although our bit had a special coating that negated the need for coolant, so I think we will try sticking with that so that we don't make a mess in the Carvey 🤞🤞 Thanks for all the tips!
hey guys
try using a 4 flute roughing style end mill and choke the end mill up in the collet this should reduce vibration significantly
happy milling
Interesting, we used a 2 but some folks said a 4 would gum up. Maybe it different in different situations? Thanks!!
This was super cool to watch
Thank you!
You're going way too fast for this kind of machine. Also it would help if you added some lubricant. A simple spray of WD-40 would help a lot. What kind of Aluminium exactly are you using? I have tested AlMg3 and AlMg4 alloy on desktop CNC with impressive results. Some alloys are too "soft" and will clog the endmill.
To sum it up, you can produce good results milling aluminium and brass on desktop CNC if you are doing it right. For starters I suggest using cheap Chinese endmills because you will damage and / or destroy burrs when testing.
Yeah we'd be down to try further dialing in the speed for sure. Our bit had a coating that negated the need for lubricant and the chips we're the right size so I actually think we're ok in that regard. We used 6061 aluminum, definitely wanna try brass sometime also!
@@EvanAndKatelyn Bit coating isn't really there to "negate" cooling, it has other important purposes (TiN "gold" coating for instance is very hard and thanks to that, tool lasts longer, also it has increased abrasion resistence). Definitly little bit of WD-40 would help from my own experience. Also you are using very large bit for this kind of machine (it is belt driven, is it?), more like 3mm bit (1/8in I think?) would be more suitable, even if it takes longer time to machine flat surfaces. But in general, really nice work! Keep going !
I love you guys
Your way and the humor is prefect
Thank you so much! 😁😁
You should check out Winston Moy's videos on machining metals really good stuff
we are friends with Winston and did watch it! He's got great stuff :)
2:04 I thought Fusion 360 was expensive, but it is actually reasonably priced for a DIYer. $800 for 3 years, not bad.
Compared to AutoCAD at $1500 for just 1 year. Didn't realize how lucky we were to get it for free in school. Wish they had a DIYer version of AutoCAD for non-commercial use that was cheaper.
I thought it I thought it was funny that you said it took three tries while wearing the make fail make fail make shirt. 😂
Haha! You're right...
Really like this video, it's great that you show your process of working things out 😁 And it's awesome to see all the good advice in the comments!
thank you! happy to share our processes and mistakes :) so much good advice in the comments :D
Thanks for adding the feedrates on the screen. I've been thinking about milling aluminum with my cnc. This helps a ton
Yay best of luck!! If we were to do it again for the first time we would have started slow and ramped up instead of the other way around lol
YES! YES! YES! A decent video about milling Aluminium(British Version) on a desktop CNC! So happy! So happy! Don't think they have abuse lines for CNC's ( and to think I thought Katelyn was abusive, good job Evan ruin my sympathy for you.) I need one of these! To mill Aluminium, Unobtainium (not Avatar stuff either, no the Samuel Jackson "The Core" version) Rubbertallic pistons, and Carbon impregnated pears! I love it! Make more! Make more!
Haha!!! I wish we said it "aluminium" over here, it sounds way cooler!! Thank you!
When you have no idea what you're doing, but blind enthusiasm and brute force will prevail.
you two are goals
❤️❤️
Katelyn playing with the little squarer at the end and holding it up to her face made me think it could be used for sharp makeup contours
Haha yes!
Interesting and fun video guys, like all the videos you do... but don't forget that when working with metals, you have to lubricate the drill or the milling cutter constantly, since it heats up and stops cutting well.
A hug from Spain.
Definitely down to try an 1/8" bit and dial in the speeds a bit more. Our bit had a coating that should negate the need for fluid, and the chips we're the right size, so I think we're ok on that front. We should have mentioned that though in the video. Thanks and hi from Texas!
When you cut your slots, step down to an 8th inch end mill and use adaptive clearing, you'll be able to go faster. That's how I do it on my mpcnc.
Ooh sweet yeah we were thinking next time we'll try the 1/8" end mill so the load on the frame will be less. I think the bit should be fine moving at those speeds and feeds. We went with 1/4" so the bit would be thick enough but I don't think it's the weakest link :P
EvanAndKatelyn When I operated a cnc router at my last job we did most of our work with a 1/4" bit. Your're right though, the rigidity of your machine is the problem so step it down to that 1/8" bit like Barry suggested and you should be fine. Also try reducing the length that the bit hangs out from the collet, the longer it is the more it can vibrate.
nemisis714 yeah would be down to try having the bit less extended!
The endmill is sticking out waaay too much, which is causing lots of deflection. Also, you really should tune it down to like 10 ipm on a small machine like that. Just a thought.
We had the endmill in as far as we could go, but had a hard time finding shorter endmills. Definitely want to try a shelter one though. Thanks!
The head of that Carvey doesn’t seem really sturdy, so, you don’t plunge with end mills. You might want to include a drill operation for the inside pocket and the profile. Pretty cool, though.
Nice work with the trial and error! I've been cutting Alu for years first on a Build your CNC now on a XCarve, I cut fast and shallow, 700mm/min (~27.5in/min) feed but only 0.2mm depth, 1/8" 2-flute bit, lowest RPM possible. The routers turn so fast that I've found going too slow allows too much heat build-up, so I keep the bit moving. WD-40 or other lube just gums things up and keeps the heat in. Milling direction also helps, I use climb as it gives a smoother finish. Your ears can tell you a lot; the chatter yours was making would have me running for the e-stop. Good luck on the next one!
Yeah fast is the key! I run up to 2000mm/min on my reinforced shapeoko2. Shallow cuts if you are making a full cut. Im able to cut with 3mm DOC and 0.4mm WOC @2000mm/min with coolant... But coolant on a desktop CNC is always a mess espacially with an mdf wasteboard.
When you have almost no idea what you're doing, but you smile for the camera and pretend everything is going fine anyway...
There are videos that are tutorials and videos that are experiments - ours is most definitely the latter, but that's how we learn!
EvanAndKatelyn Don't worry too much, I was just having a laugh at your expense- I've seen enough videos of professionals messing up far, far worse, a little bit of vibration and chatter due to non-ideal settings by relative beginners is nothing by comparison. If you want to feel happier with your efforts, search for 'CNC crash compilation' and prepare to wince...
Hahaha omg I can only imagine the terrible noises coming from one of those compilations!
Might want toooo - I don't knoooow - consider NOT using ramp passes, smaller end-mill with 3 or 4 flutes for lower chip-loads, and slow that feedrate waaay down, you're going at Sonic level speeds there for that end-mill and machine.