Do sovereign citizens' claims have any legal basis? | WTFAQ | ABC TV + iview
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- Опубліковано 17 жов 2023
- Comedian Lou Wall does a deep dive into 'sovereign citizens, enlisting legal experts to bust some widely-held beliefs within the movement. #WTFAQ
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WTFAQ’s crack team of presenters - Chas Licciardello, Alex Lee, Lawrence Leung, Lou Wall, Cameron James and Kirsten Drysdale - hit the sweet spot where comedy meets inquisition to answer the questions that have sparked curiosity in the minds of our audience for far too long.
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There is a major flaw in their reasoning which is never addressed by anyone; if declaring themselves a "sovereign citizen" puts them outside the law, it also puts them outside the protection of the law. It fulfills the original meaning of "outlaw", which was a person who was placed outside of the law and who was the equivalent of a wild animal. When these people assert they can do anything, they forget the flipside of this is that others may legally commit any action against them. In foregoing legal responsibilities, they also forego legal protections. Are they sure this is what they really want?
As an American, I am so sorry that we've managed to export this bit of idiocy. Though it IS kind of funny to watch Canadian sovcits argue their "first amendment rights" when their first amendment establishes Manitoba as a province and has nothing to do with free speech.
Equally, we had the same 'minds' in Aus during Brexit advocating that we leave the EU. Go figure that one...
Are you sure we Americans exported it? I can't say that's surprising, but I pray it's not true.
It's even funnier in Australia, our constitutional amendments aren't numbered, they're just dated from when they were included, so I guess our 1st Amendment is from 1906, and it's to enable elections for both houses (Senate and House of Reps) to happen concurrently. We also do not have Freedom of Speech as a constitutional right (or even a legal tenet, for that matter) so any "free speech" claims are ignored by our constabulary. We prefer the "talk shit, get hit" methodology.
As an American, I'm glad to see we aren't the only ones who have our society tarnished by the malignant minds who think this will get them a free pass for breaking the law. Besides, I still get a kick out of seeing courts and law enforcement humbling their fragile little egos.
It's even funnier when some Bogan moron tries it here in Oz - we don't even have them at all here, hell, we don't have an explicitly set out and enshrined 'Right to Free Speech' in our actual Constitution ;)
I was a sovcit... It's just SO cringe now to look back and see how I acted.
0:55 The 'step-dad' defense. That's brilliant and hilarious!
I’m not watching this video in commerce , I’m merely observing it.
Is that navel commerce or corporate commerce? 😊
Of course, "sovereign citizens" merilly use the US interstate highway system (or its equivalent elsewhere) and call firefighters if a fire breaks out.
“Sovereign Citizen” is code for “I’m an idiot, but I think that I am smart.”
I don't know who Lou is but I love her screen personality!
This was just so great.
"Has no contact with reality "
Perfectly said
Wonderful segment with the appropriate amount of mockery of the movement itself. “You’re not my real parent so I don’t have to do what you say” sums the whole philosophy of it up perfectly. It appeals to willful individuals that would rather doge consequence than adapt their behavior. People who can’t handle the word “no.”
The really sad and crazy thing is that a lot of these people have paid real actual money , for the privilege of being scammed and messing up thier lives.
But.. but.. they did their own research. How could they possibly be wrong...
They should all join together and move to an island all alone.
Dont understand the problem here if a police officer is confronted by a so called Sovereign citizen that officer should detain that offender as an illegal immigrant to be handed to Border force for detention. Clearly they are not an Australian citizen and therefore not entitled to the rights enjoyed by real Australian Citizens.
This, this is what should be done to all Sovereign Citizens. What they don't know is 'Implied Consent,' by just standing in a country they give their consent to follow the laws and to withdraw that consent they just have to leave the country.
Sovereign citizens are a subset of the "poorly educated," and often people who can't see their way out of financial or legal jeopardy until they hear of this panacea for all their ills. The SovCit guff used to be peddled at pay-to-attend lectures, before they switched to selling videos in the 1980s and 1990s and it's currently on the internet.
The "sovereign" aspect comes from one of James Madison's Federalist Papers,. They were a long series of newspaper articles written over 200 years ago for those interested in writing and amending the new constitution of the USA. The Paper in question described the constitutional arrangements of the Holy Roman Empire, in which thirty-plus German dukes, bishops, etc ("sovereigns") ruled small provinces under the nominal suzerainty of the Holy Roman Emperor. By the end, the emperor had little real authority and the "sovereigns" acted as they pleased.
The Federalist Papers are not part of the US Constitution, but the SovCits choose to treat this one as if it was since it was written by an American secular saint.
The hicks reading an excerpt of this article had no idea what the HRE was, and translated "empire" as "United States" and "sovereign" as "White American." By the way, they used to claim that these powers applied only to white Americans, and not to black slaves or their descendants.
Sovereign Citizens also used to take issue with the ending of slavery, and regarded post-civil war laws as illegitimate, or less legitimate than those passed before. That's why there are also "Moorish Citizens" who are black Americans with their own distinct delusional system.
Apart from all the above, the SovCits make full use of being "poorly educated" and choose to misunderstand a whole host of American and English legal concepts. However, there's no arguing with them: they already know everything.
Sovereign citizen arguments have no basis in law and have never been successful in any court. The movement may appeal to people facing financial or legal difficulties or wishing to resist perceived government oppression. As a result, it has grown significantly during times of economic or social crisis.
As just a plain old citizen of the United States, I surprised (but not so much maybe) that you have these bone-head sovereign citizens in Australia. My take on them has always been that as a group of people that want to benefit from the greater society around them but not contribute to said society in terms of following laws they don't like, and more importantly, paying taxes.
The difference between "driving" and "traveling" is quite simple...
No matter if you are here in the states or across the pond -
If you are BEHIND the steering wheel, you ARE DRIVING.
If you are in the passenger seat (or backseats), you ARE TRAVELING.
Any on entering a country or state automatically is subject the laws of that land ! PERIOD
I used to know a 'sovereign citizen'. He'd probably say "it doesnt matter if it isnt legal because its lawful"
He'd also say things like "The reason why police ask if you understand is because if you say yes then you're affirming that you stand under them, which means they're above you and have authority over you"
Hilarious and informative. Great video.
sovereign citizens cases in Canada have the same results as in Australia.
We have this same “bullshit” in the United States. This should be classified as a mental epidemic (lol).
"Sovereign Citizen" is code for "I have the IQ of a seagull and get my "facts" from social media"
For a while I watched sovcit arrest videos. It annoyed the heck out of me to watch the police officers waste time arguing the law with these idiots. They go back and forth and forth and think the officer should just demand they produce a license and then arrest them. The "traveling" versus "driving" argument just mystifies me and sounds delusional. Another tactic of theirs is to insist on talking to a supervisor before being arrested. I don't understand why their websites can't be sued for fraud.
great to see this. I recently had a person try to debate the issue in a pub...He got angry and left because i was laughing at him too much...
This was a great segment! Really enjoying Lou’s approach. Keep up the good work!
At 03:13 you can do whatever you want, as there's usually nothing physically stopping you from doing all sorts of very stupid and/or dangerous things.
It's the "getting away with it" that won't usually happen.
Sovereign Citizen Scarecrow: I am NOT a strawman!
SovCit: Hello 911? My house is on fire. Send someone over. 911 Dispatcher: Sorry, you do not have a contract with us 😅
Well Done! Education through humor. Keep an eye out for this rising star Lou Wall.
You can't arrest me because I don't consent to the law.
Ok well then I'm kidnapping you.
That's illegal!
Well I don't consent to the laws against kidnapping.
Sovereign citizens will argue that the laws of the land don't apply to them and will use those same laws to try to prove it. 🤷
I think that if they SC are not going to abide by the law and pay taxes they should not get any medical help, government assistance, fire or police help. And not be allowed to join or be a member of any social program paid by the government, such as libraries, health classes, gym, sport arenas etc.
I had a teacher who spoke of the idea of exchangeable rights. You give up some freedom to get somthing in return. For instance if I go to work for someone I don't have the right to do whatever I want but in exchange I get money. Same with driving or many other things that require obeying the rules.
1:03
“.. the Step Dad Defence.”
😂😂😂😂😂😂😂
Never heard it called that before but by golly, as a Step Dad, so blooming accurate!
(Ftr, one of my 3 step children used this argument ONCE! “.. you can’t tell me what to do!”. My calm response; “Actually, I Can tell you what to do. You Don’t have to do it, but then I tell mum and you have Her anger to deal with as well as still having to do what I said.”)
Loved the whole "stepfather" analogy when describing the philosophy of sovcits! I hadn't heard that before! It fits perfectly though!
These people don’t want the law to apply to them, but if somebody commits a crime against them, let’s just say burglary, they demand that the police take action against the perpetrators
They want it both ways
Wherever you are, there are rules to follow and laws to obey. Whether you had anything to do with those laws or not, and whether you lived there or not, you are subject to their penalties while on their land/property.
Outstanding video. I’d almost forgotten that content can be informative, clever, and funny at the same time.
Sovcits in Australia and the US seem to have similar core beliefs and virtually identical tactics, including a proprietary interpretation of their countrys' respective Constitutions, which they use to support their claims. Weird, how both Constitutions would have loopholes that make soverign citizenship possible, LOL.
I also understand that the Sovcit movement in Australia is more homogeneous and unified, with a more coherent and consistent set of beliefs and practices, compared to the movement in the US. So... congratulations?
Sovereign citizen arguments are specious and have never worked in the United States, Canada, Great Britain, Australia, or New Zealand.
Absolutely hilarious and brilliant at the same time. Love your channel…and you. Well not physically, that would be weird just your…humour. Subbed.
So glad to hear that they don’t actually ever get away with this stuff in real life. This vid was informative and HILARIOUS
Sovtard arguments are as factual and accurate as Flat Earth arguments. And not surprisingly, the two seem to go hand in hand fairly often. Along with countless other conspiracy theories. Crazy loves company it seems.
As a living person, you can certainly do whatever you want. As long as you're willing to pay the consequences.
I wonder if the ambiguity of driving/travelling in England, 500 years back, originates from "driving" livestock to market. Weren't too many automobiles on the highways back then.
In the UK these fools call themselves Freeman on the Land. I saw one video of them claiming victory in a court. Truth is, they defendant and compadres in the gallery disrupted the court, chanting and shouting. The magistrate adjourned the case to a later date. It wasn't a win for the defendant despite his claims.
Under maritime law, this road pirate can not check my licence nor taketh my dubloons.
But on a serious note. The conjecture that arises from lay people reading the law, is because the law is not something that is easily read and understood by the general public. They should be written clearly and concisely in plain English. Most of these problems would disappear, in my lay opinion.
It is worth watching to the very end. Funniest bit in the whole video. I have actually met people like this and they tie themselves in knots to not pay taxes and other such things. I usually tell them they would be much better off paying taxes and getting a regular job with benefits when I compare to what they make and what I make.
There are methods to avoid paying taxes but they are not rich enough to exploit them. Honestly, I wonder if that is what causes all the strife in the minds of these people. They know it is possible, but can't figure out how they go about doing it themselves.....
Somewhere, in America, we have a document that contains the line, "consent of the governed". But no, that never meant we can "not consent" to obey laws.
"You can't believe everything you read on the internet."
Abraham Lincoln
Not sure about Australia but in the USA there are a lot of Court proceedings that you can video tape and I've yet to see any Sovereign citizen BS that has been successful. We are waiting.
Best kind of reporting: informative and funny. Just discovered Lou, I hope to find more of her wotk. 👍👍👍
Great video. Thank you for taking the time to research and make this video
Loved this video! Please do more!
What I would say to a sovereign citizen is - If there's no laws, and we're just two humans on the planet, then I can do whatever I want to them. It's hypothetically a free-for-all. Additionally, if there were no laws, then a simple majority would be able to do whatever else we wanted, like MAKING YOU do whatever we want. Their own logic would cause them more harm because in their mind there are no laws for the "human person". So yeah, any group or anyone could just do anything to them because there are no laws.
Great production quality, subbed 😂❤
The nicest thing I can say about sovereign citizens is that they make me laugh.
Excellent video - Thanks for a good chuckle.
If laws don't apply to them what happens when they are accosted by another living man who doesn't believe laws don't apply either and that person takes something or assaults them? Do they call the police (state) or do they just walk off with their tail between their legs.
In olde England and other places, if you were declared outside the law, you were outside the protection of the law and anyone could kill you without penalty ... an "outlaw". 🥶
In the US they host a Saturday only “postal” court with their own made up judge.
So let me see if I've got this right, these people claim they can drive onto my property in a big campervan & live there permanently, rent free, cause their campervan is "private property"?
& they're claiming what, that I have no right to protect my private property from their invasion of it? Well then that goes both ways & I also have the right to enter their "private property" in the same way they do mine, don't I!
& I'm not a "sovereign citizen, but I am an Australian citizen, which means my country is my property & so I authorise the police to enter any of "their" private property that they have illegally put onto MY property of Australia. Note, I'll make an exception for First Nation's people & say they have the right to throw me off & refuse to respect my ownership of it, since they kinda did own it before my ancestors stole it off them, didn't they, but no exceptions for those who came here without permission from the original inhabitants & then try to claim my country doesn't even exist, which is what they are saying.
How can they not grasp that that is how this works in the real world? You can't just plonk yourself on someone else's property & claim it's yours. What nutters!
Thanks for explaining how their insane thinking works though :)
I loved this, thank you so much for making me chuckle.
This was great! I'd like to see Lou Wall do a deep dive into the 'Infinite Banking' products marketed to the same kinds of people attracted to the sovereign citizen, cultish Trumpism, and flat-earth foolishness. For those unfamiliar with it, infinite banking involves “overfunding” a cash value life insurance policy and treating it as a line of credit. Policyholders borrow against their life insurance policies rather than taking out loans from traditional lenders. Contributing 10% of your income toward the cash value is common. The "strategy" is heavily marketed with pseudo-economics, class-warfare tropes, etc. but ultimately it is about selling suckers a high-commission whole-life insurance product. The life insurance products have been around for years and are so complicated they are difficult to sell. By wrapping them in an 'Infinite Banking' concept the commission-based sellers have figured out way to sell shit that few really need.
I heard a joke the other day that if the Earth really was flat the cats would have knocked everything off the edge by now!!
Excellent video - full of information but presented with great humor. Thank you.
Very informative and funny. Nice job
1:24 "I do... not... consent". I actually LOL'd. :-)
I studied Law for six months here in Australia as part of another course. Not long after that I found out about the Sovereign Citizen Movement. And I found it, at that time, to be fascinating. In all the research I performed on the subject I was always at a loss as to how they arrived at their conclusions and findings. The only thing that I could ever work out about them, was that they either don't recognise the legal maxims of "Precedent and Rescission" in their beliefs. Or they just don't know about or understand them. It was very much a "But hang on" moment for me.
He’s Steering while Traveling. But NOT “Driving” 🙄🤪🤣🤣🤣
In Germany we have crazy people like this too. They are called "Reichsbürger" (Citizens of the Reich). In their belief the Federal Republic of Germany does not exist as a country because there was not peace contract, the Constituion "Grundgesetz" does not apply as it was not voted by the people and the German Reich still exists in the borders of the 1910s or 1930s (they are not unified here). In their belief the FDR is an LTD. The thing is: There is an FDR Ltd. which is a company in Frankfurt who takes care of the finances of Germany, e.g. debt management etc. But it is not the same as a government. Also because the constitution is called "Main Law" they also don't believe in it. Furthermore they take on one of the Articles in this law saying that it is not valid. The article they are refering to simply says that if a new constitituion will be elected, then this law will be not valid. Oh yeah, and the main argument: The German ID is called "Personalausweis", which they translate as "Staff ID" (Personal - employee), and they totally ignore the fact that the word "Personal" comes from "Personalien" (personalia) and that even in the German Reich the IDs were called like that. And they also claim that if it is written in big letters you are a slave. So as you can imagine they don't pay taxes, made their own fake IDs and licences, found their own kingdom, country or whatever in their backyard, call themselves Reich Chancellor, King, President or whatever and bother police officers and gov workers with their BS. So they are similar to the sovereign citizens in English speaking countries.
This is brilliant! Love it! 🙂
This was a treat. Thanks.
Thankyou so much for making this.
What a wonderful video! I loved the "stepdad defence" was glorious 😅
I really like this presentation:-)
well done! laughed pretty hard.
Marvelous. It should have explored more the topic of how the laws being misinterpreted and misquoted by the sovereign citizens are American laws like the “right to travel” being supposedly in conflict with States rights to require licenses to operate motor vehicles on public roads.
This was great!
Good job. Funny and informative!
My whole world view has been crushed!! LOL
Congratulations Lou, you almost made it through keeping a straight face :D
Step dad defence. Brilliant.
"Thank you, that'll do" 😂
"Baby" Hahaha That really made me laugh!!
LMAO@
No.
Who are you?
This is my office and you're trespassing.
I do not consent.
Ummm, if they reject their legal person status, wouldn't that remove their legal protections?
Hilarious! Great piece! Great way to put a wrap over the bullshit!
Love it!!!!
How very enjoyable your videos are! So refreshing. Methinks, the experts used the adjective _idiosyncratic_ out of politeness, what they meant was _idiotic!_
"And I thought about it, like "Hey, that's a good idea!". 😂😅
This was supa FUNNY! Please UA-cam send me more of these!
Love it!
Love the dedication to the bit. All the "strait man" parts were played well too lol. Informative and funny.
There's a dude in Canada who thinks he's carved out a bit of the country and that it's his sovereign country lol.
Nice one Lou! Well, not to mention wittily, put!
Strange how they think that they can drive on the Government's roads and bridges but don't have to follow the Government's law regarding conduct on those roads.
There are ALOT of them here in the US. So damn annoying!! 😑
Excelllent presentation
Had an interaction with a fellow at a fest once. There were several there, and he was totally pissing most of them off. I didnt argue whether he could legitimately behave as he would, but instead asked him on simple moral grounds - "how do you feel about forcing all those around you to pay for benefits you accrue through society ?" .
He totally was not prepared for that. Nor was he happy about it. :-D
Sorry but those wigs are hilarious 😂😂😂
I just had to subscribe. Very, very entertaining. To begin with.
Where do you get these ideas from? The States, of course!
That whole "You're not the boss of ME!" attitude is a constant thread through US history. It goes all the way back to Shays's rebellion, and probably reached its climax in the American Civil War. As the specific SovCit nonsense, it dates back to about fifty years ago. More recently, it got taken up in other countries as well, using similarly novel and ingenious legal interpretations. But it's pure Buncombe no matter where it comes from. Living in ANY country involves an implied consent to abide by and answer to that country's laws.
Exactly.
Beautifully done.
It's no surprise that Dain 'Hailpern' is going to be against Australians having genuine rights, too.