Yeah, I understand that he's very enthusiastic about this topic, and enthusiasm has its place too, but if you're actually trying to learn, hearing from those with knowledge tends to be best.
but he's an anti sub warfare expert. His knowledge about driving a USSR sub is probably limited. Mine mostly comes from Clancy... also fly has definitely put some hours in this game already.
If he is ASW expert and has already clocked some hours in the game, he should at least know how to use helos properly and how to use active search on ships. And what more, using your best ASW ship from the formation as a bait and telling it to go more than 5 knots with towed out is not a very good show for an ASW expert. So, I humbly disagree.
Poor guy just stopped talking after he realized they weren't listening to him. Here's common tactics, Fly: Let's not do that and do this completely different instead.
Retired USN submariner 77 to 97 - well, the kindest thing I can say is, at least you guys admitted at the beginning that you didn't have the first bloody idea what you were doing with submarines and ASW warfare. And your "expert" is also pretty light on his knowledge of submarines.
Fly is incorrect....use noise makers to decoy passive sonar. You may hear high frequency props from a weapon in the water....drop a noise maker, alter course 90 degrees. Red submarines are a generation or 2 noisier than western boats....until you get to the Akula....which was a very dangerous opponent. I served on UK S class boats
I was a RN communicator for many years and worked alongside the warfare guys on these ASW exercises than I can remember. Cap, I know he's your mate but stop listening to Fly Fly, sorry to tell you but you have sod all idea of ASW warfare, either on or below the surface. Especially when you override the guys there who obviously know what they're doing! Stick to aeroplanes mate. Also, English Channel/North Sea/Baltic are all very shallow. Not a great place for nuclear submarines, but your sub attack would have been much different if you'd picked the smaller diesel boats. On electric motors these things are totally quiet whereas nucs still have a certain level of noise,admittedly almost nothing. Try the British and European diesel bboats next time you fight in shallow water. Keep the nucs for the deep water.
The English channel might have been a very bad pick to try submarine warfare as it's incredibly shallow and gives the surface vessels a huge advantage in locating the submarine, the Atlantic or Artic ocean would be a better choice.
OMG. I realize fly isn’t speaking his native language, and is far better at a 2nd language than myself, but holy shit does he speak a lot but doesn’t say much. Let the expert get a few words in please.
Attempt 1: Cap: A torpedo is hunting us! Pony The Expert: Shoot a torpedo, drop noisemakers, turn as hard as you can. Fly: I actually wouldn't do that. Do what Pony said(?) just without noisemakers. *Sub gets hit twice* Cap: I wonder what we did wrong? Fly: I wonder too. Pony The Expert: *silence* Attempt 2: Cap: What do we do, guys? Pony The Expert: When they cross the red circle, turn in, flank speed, shoot, then run away. Fly: But that makes us a target. What we should do is wait a bit longer, turn in, flank speed, shoot, then run away. So what I'm getting is that you've got Pony, a trained ASW dude likely with knowledge of how a submarine would operate (because he's got to know what to look out for) and Fly, who just disagrees with Pony then rephrases what Pony said only with a slight modification to make things worse. I'm not learning about submarine warfare or being entertained. In fact it's rather the opposite. I get that you're [Cap] chatting with your chums and they may have more experience in this game, but your chums are there to offer you guides how to do things. Pony is there to tell you how to win and to give you the benefit of his real world experience. If he's not given the opportunity to speak and Fly is too busy making himself look bad then... why bother? I don't think I've ever disliked a GR video before, but this one gets a thumbs down. My advice is to try again. Just you and Pony. A no Fly zone, if you will.
Even the so called expert Pony does not know a whole lot, just bits and pieces. "When they cross the red circle, turn in, flank speed, shoot, then run away...", why ? why go flank speed ? want to reveal your position ?? and they even want to shoot going flank, as if its a javelin throw that you need run up !! Its a sub, shooting while going flank will jam the tube, cause even more trouble. But none of this fact was even thought of.
@Arks1103 I think that launching a torpedo will be a big enough giveaway as to the sub's position, so going to flank speed will give the torp a little extra kick if fired at max range without giving the enemy any additional info before turning away at a lower speed. I can't speak as to jamming the tube, though. Good thinking. Either that, or Pony is just informing us what he has been trained to expect from Russian sub doctrine. It would be interesting to find out, and we may well have found out if FLY HAD SHUT THE HELL UP.
Ideally, the sub should turn away from the target, cut off propulsion, string the towed out, and once speed is less than 5 knots (if it was going any faster then 5 knots at the first place, which is itself a bummer), then fire the torps. The hull will mask the noise of torp launching. Going fast and launching at high speeds will do nothing, it's a torpedo, it does not require run up. Launching at high speeds definitely jams the tube, I am sure of it. AND YES, FLY NEEDS TO SHUT UP.
Apart from what's been already said about Fly talking too much, Cap not listening to the expert, and the English Channel being a poor place for nuclear subs, I'll add in my two cents. What I see here is too many cooks (err...captains) in the kitchen. Everybody's talking and nobody's listening much. Another issue with a lot of these simulator games is that Cap and Fly have more experience with DCS (a tactical aircraft simulator), but little to no experience with an operations simulator like Sea Power. (I mean, Sea Power is basically Command: Modern Operations...reduced fat version. That game has a near vertical learning curve and is 100x more complex, but with less flashy graphics.) As a result, they're trying to play it like a tactical sim that requires faster reflexes, when in reality it requires careful and considered planning, along with an understanding of systems and tactics. It's much more abstract. Granted that they're learning how to play the game, but Cap is frequently suffering from task and information overload. Fly is talking too much and distracting everyone from the overall picture. As a result, Cap is getting hyperfixated on things and ends up mindlessly clicking around and wasting time. This isn't exclusive to Cap, but I see a lot of new players suffer from this.
Yeah, this game reminds me a lot of battle stations midway and battle stations Pacific but even though that was World War II, there’s still similar tactics at play, and it gets frustrating to watch all these guys that don’t know how to play that sort of game.
Cap I love your videos but you had somebody who knew a lot information about the submarine warfare and ignored him to listen to Fly, this was very frustrating.
I basically agree, but every now and then I appreciate a good GR dumpster fire. That said, I look forward to Cap getting a better handle on Sea Power. The big carrier battle was quite the shitshow too.
If they're going to find your towed array with sonar, they're going to find you with sonar - you're a much bigger target, so deploying a passive towed array will not have any detriment. Actually, since it is _behind_ you, it will detect sounds in your baffles way more easily than your own sonar will.
"I wonder what we did wrong?" Did you want that in chronological order or alphabetic? - Former sonar tech on 688 and 688i edit: Fly's going to get you killed. On the bright side, you'll probably burn to death when the atmosphere diesels, long before you have a chance to drown when the torpedo hits. So there's that.
even the worst skipper ever graduated from a sub training school would give a thousand times better suggestions then what that fly was giving. He was just so wrong about every single fact and tactics, plus the confidence of shutting actual experts up.
Also a STS...my head hurts now. Saying a sub could be a awacs was the funniest thing I have ever heard. Whoever that guy is with the Russian accent is gave some terrible advice.
Also, because of the screw noise, there's an area directly behind the submarine called the "baffles" that a submarine can't hear anything. The towed array gets a passive sonar out beyond your submarine's noise, allowing you to hear in your baffles.
‘baffles’ are present on towed arrays, in rl the size is ‘secret’, but let’s call it 15 or so degrees, a lot less than the 45+ of using front and lateral arrays and a whole lot less than maybe 90-180 degrees with forward arrays only.
It also helps in triangulating sonar contacts. There's no downside to deploying the towed array, apart from the fact you'll need to reel it back in before going on a sprint or you'll risk ripping it off.
I spent too many years on Royal Navy Towed Array frigates in the cold war. ASW is sloooowww... until its not! Both subs and frigates keep their speed very slow (2-3 knots from memory) to reduce their noise and improve detection ranges. Regular turns to clear the baffles and to get postive confirmation of contact. Towed array used to give you two directions to a contact ie 90 degrees to starboard or 90 degress to port, the only way to know which one was the real contact was to turn the ship and see which contact remained on the same bearing. Short sprints to get into postion, rinse and repeat. The frigate would aways try to keep the sub at arms length and use the helicopter as the main method of attack. You can't do anything quickly with your array out, slow turns at slow speed or risk losing the array. Passive sensors as much as possible, active sensors give your postion away so would rarely be used.
To close on target, go deep, point nose to intercept targets, sprint for a few minutes, then slow down turn left or right for enough time to listen for the target and listen for subs following you. Don’t turn too much while listening. After you get a fix on target, turn again to intercept and repeat. When you shoot turn away from target, maybe parallel to its course to give yourself to reduce time of turn if you need to runaway.
The notion of the Alpha was that it could outrun homing torpedoes. Outrun meaning that it can slow the rate of closing enough that the torpedo runs out of fuel before getting close enough. Of course, being loud makes it easier to track, especially if it has to go fast; antisub helicopters can then launch from in front. Subs going a max speed can't hear very well. All that is probably why the Soviets never made an equally fast follow-on class.
Btw, quick tip for doing ASW with surface ships: dont bother trying to hide. The sub is gonna have a much easier time finding you than you are finding it, even if you’re sitting completely still, because a surface ship is not designed to be quiet like a submarine is. Always assume the submarine knows _exactly_ where you are, because it probably does. And here’s a tip for when you are a submarine and you’ve been fired on: the second you see that a torp’s gone active, drop a noisemaker, fire a decoy in the direction of the torpedo if you can, turn slightly, change your depth, and keep going, dropping a noisemaker every so often until the torp’s completely lost you, then you want to go as quiet as you possibly can while still moving, and you wait. When a torp’s active on you, you need to have as many sources of noise in the area as possible, to make it harder for the torpedoes, and the surface ships, to hit you. The torpedoes go for noise, so you basically want to treat evading them like you’re trying to take out an air defense system, and overwhelm them with targets. Also, my Dad served on submarines in the US Navy. According to him, the sub wouldn’t restock on food at a “secret location.” It would do so at port, before even leaving for patrol, which could last roughly 4-6 months. Once their patrol started, they would not stop to restock until their patrol ended, nd they were back in port. And I should point out that the US Navy does not operate any diesel-electric submarines - if its a US Navy sub, its nuclear.
Radar on submarines is a WWII thing. US subs had air warning radar, some German subs had Seetakt (a primitive radar, with dipoles on the front of the tower, only able to see a few miles and only +-30° from straight ahead. Sometimes useful in fog or rain.
30:45 I mean what on earth is fly thinking, does he even know how submarine warfare works in modern era, the other guy was absolutely right, fire snapshot, deploy noisemaker and run, once the stealth factor of a sub is gone, there is no point in going slow and hoping the MG 44 would save you. 1:01:14 "We try to use knowledge and stuff from cold water....", knowledge, about how to get sunk, yeah you definitely have a lot of that !! CAP, please listen to actual experts or maybe even try to research some stuff on own to avoid such situations in content creation.
If you really want to learn submarine warfare Cap, I would recommend you try Cold Waters, it's a purely submarine focused game, and as such, you have a lot more control over what your sub does and how it does it and etc... Plus, it has tutorials and there are excellent mods as well that add surface vessels and more weaponry.
that's the problem. They want a complete war sim, nut just sub only. And that's what this game is hopefully good at. They played one of those sub sims in multiplayer a long time ago. That was quite fun.
Sea Powers ASW incorporates every lesson we learned from making Cold Waters and is much more realistic. Cold Waters is more of a pure 80's style action sub sim.
The TSA (Towed SONAR* Array) also lets subs basically see in their blind spot since there is no SONAR* in the aft section of a sub because that's where the screws are located. *Sound Navigation and Ranging (SONAR)
Seeing Fly and Violet back lately feels like old times! However you're working with a (potentially) far superior game to DCS for the types of battles you guys like to run, I cannot wait to see some combined fleet battles with subs and ASW involved at the same time!
Sub displacement variation between USSR and USA might be down to a difference in Single Hull vs Double Hull design. Shout out to H I Sutton for making much informative content regarding submarines.
I used to scuba dive and i experienced a thermal layers many times. Once i managed to stop and float right on the thermal. 78 degrees Fahrenheit above and 38 below. It is a distinct line in the water. My back was warm and my belly was cold. Apparently there were 2 more by the time we got to 100ft, but i couldnt feel the difference.
kinda cool when the lower layer looks solid and your friends disappear and all you can see is their bubbles coming up through what looks like mud - until you also descend through the 'mud' layer and you can see them again :)
You DEFINITELY want to fire a snap shot torpedo along the line of approach of the incoming enemy torpedo. If it's a ship or sub, you're forcing them into an evasive turn that may break the guidance wire, so their torp will have to go autonomous or active sooner. The enemy can no longer correct the torpedo course or tell it to ignore suspected decoys. I deploy a decoy AND noisemakers, make a sharp turn and radically alter depth. You want to get as far away from the detection point (and your previous course) as possible and cause the enemy sonarmen as much confusion and noise as possible while you either sprint or skulk away. FYI creeping below the layer at 3 knots you'll be virtually impossible to detect unless a helo dips right above you and goes active, or active sonobuoys are dropped at just the right depth very close to you. At that speed, Russian subs won't hear you unless you're incredibly unlucky.
the reason you use a towed sonar array is because the sonar on your ship/submarine is often blocked by the propulsion. Towing a sonar behind your propeller means you can listen behind you as well. There's no downside to having one out but you can break the wire by moving too erratically
Thank you for the video as always, Cap and GR! This is a long one (that's what she said)! I’ve written an overview of modern USN submarines and also added a list of all US Navy weapons deployed against enemy ships, boats, and submarines for those of you who may be interested. Los Angeles-class Nuclear-Powered Fast Attack Submarines (SSN; 24 Active & 36 Retired): This is pretty accurate compared to what's in Sea Power, but all Flight I variants have been retired. The remaining active boats are Flight II and Flight III, and both have 12 VLS tubes for Tomahawk cruise missiles. They are also able to attack with Mk 48 torpedoes, Mark 67/Mark 60 CAPTOR mines, and Harpoons, all via the torpedo tubes (modern-day Harpoons are a newer variant, and there’s still ongoing development to this day, despite newer weapons having been developed). The USN actually removed the Tomahawk missile’s capability to attack ships with the collapse of the Soviet Union and resulting lack of a blue-water navy threat for a few decades. However, with the increasing threat from China, the USN has just recently started to deploy the upgraded Tomahawk Block VA & VB; the VB is an upgraded land-attack model, and the VA is known as the Maritime Strike Tomahawk ("MST"), which has the capability to attack moving ships at a public estimated range of 1,000 miles. It will be fired from all applicable USN submarine models (which are designed to launch cruise missiles), in addition to any ship that has VLS capability. Seawolf-class Nuclear-Powered Fast Attack Submarines (SSN; 3 Active): A larger and legendary SSN, essentially rated as the best and most-capable attack submarine ever created at the time of its deployment, and in some respects, still surpasses even more modern USN submarines. Only three of a planned 20 were built due to the high cost. Eight torpedo tubes versus the traditional four tubs on other USN SSN attack boats. No vertical launch tubes, but the torpedo tubes were designed to use a sleeve with Tomahawk cruise missiles to be fired just like the Harpoons; it's not known if that capability is currently used. Otherwise, it can hold up to 50 Mark 48 guided torpedoes/Harpoons/Tomahawks. Virginia-class Nuclear-Powered Fast Attack Submarines (SSN; 24 Active & 66 Planned): The current workhorse of the USN, currently on Block V and a Block VI is planned, each one commissioned is essentially replacing a Los Angeles class being decommissioned. An all-around amazing submarine and each Block has added further capabilities. The item worth mentioning for Block V is the introduction of the Virginia Payload Module (“VPN”) which increases the classes’ standard array of 12 VLS tubes firing Tomahawk cruise missiles, adding an extra 28 VLS tubes for 48 total. This is being done to replace the VLS capacity lost when the Ohio-class SSGN’s retire by the early 2030’s or so (see below). Ohio-class Nuclear-Powered Ballistic Missile Submarines (SSBN; 14 Active & 0 Retired): Built to ensure the US can maintain it’s secondary (follow-up) attack capability if the US were to be attacked with a nuclear weapon and maintain the submarine-launched 1/3rd of the nuclear weapon “triad” of deterrents. Each boat has four torpedo tubes and 20x UGM-133 Trident II submarine-launched ballistic missiles, each with a range of around 7,600 to 12,000 kilometers based on the number of warheads carried at a top-speed of 29,000 km per hour, accurate to within 100 meters, and containing one to twelve nuclear warheads (MIRVS) per missile. Ohio-class Nuclear-Powered Cruise Missile Submarines (SSGN; 4 Active & 0 Retired): These Ohio-class boats were converted from carrying ballistic nuclear missiles, to carry a total of 154 Tomahawk cruise missiles. Each of the four boats has approximately the same number of Tomahawk cruise missiles available to be fired as the entirety of a modern US Navy Carrier Strike Group (about four destroyers and one or two attack submarines). The Ohio SSGN’s are capable of firing other missiles as well, as their VLS tubs designed to fit Tomahawks can be removed (they are sleeved basically), allowing for other “sleeve” patterns designed around supersonic or hypersonic missile designs to be installed, at the potential expense of carrying fewer overall missiles depending on their size. They also have four torpedo tubes per USN standards. These boats will be retired over the next decade or so, which is why the Virginia-class VPM was designed. There’s also the possibility of extending the Columbia-class production line by adding a few more boats to the tail-end of their manufacturing schedule, for a similar conversion process resulting in super-SSGN boats, carrying Tomahawks, and whatever other advanced missiles that are available in the 2040’s and 2050’s. Columbia-class Nuclear-Powered Fast Attack Submarines (SSBN; 1 Under Construction & 12 Planned): The direct replacement for the Ohio SSBN, and essentially a super high-tech and high-performance improvement over the Ohio to ensure the US maintains superiority over adversary attack submarines hunting for these boats. Each boat will have four torpedo tubes and 16x Trident D5 submarine-launched ballistic missiles. The new Trident’s will be improvements over the older variants, which is difficult to imagine given the range, accuracy, and payload of the Trident II. SSN(X)-class (Improved Virginia) Nuclear-Powered Fast Attack Submarines (SSN; 0 Active & TBD Planned): This is the US Navy’s long-term plan for the next attack submarine to begin replacing the Virginia-class when those Block I boats begin to retire. The planned build-date is around 2040, and the goal is to essentially develop a future-proof all-around beat of a submarine, with the increased size and stealth of the Seawolf-class, the VLS volume of the Block V Virginia-class with VPM, and the absolute best technology possible to ensure it remains ahead of all near-peer potential adversaries. One goal is to use the US military’s current goal of integrating all sensor and intelligence data from all assets deployed, from the smallest unmanned vessel (torpedo-sized or smaller) to the satellite networks orbiting overhead, which then allow the most suitable asset anywhere in the world to fire the most suitable weapon for the target type and location. With that in-mind, they’re working to develop a torpedo that can be launched at a target over 200 nautical miles away, to be guided by another asset closer to the target as it goes terminal. As an appendix to this list, here’s an overview of current US Navy weapons to attack ships, boats, and submarines at various ranges. Excluded from this list would be weapons exclusively for air targets (such as the SM-3) and land targets (such as the Tomahawk variants other than the MST). A “V” indicates they are capable of being launched from a Vertical Launch System (VLS), either the Mark 41 or Mark 57, and a “B” indicates they are capable of being launched from a box-launcher (or dedicated platform like the SeaRAM for RIM-116) located on the deck of a vessel. - Missiles: Maritime Strike Tomahawk cruise missile (V & B), AGM-158C LRASM stealth cruise missile (air-launched, in the future V & B), Naval Strike Missile cruise missile (V & B), RGM-84 Harpoon (B), AGM-84H/K SLAM-ER (air-launches), AGM-119 Penguin (air-launched), RIM-66/RIM-156 SM-2 (V), RIM-174 SM-6 (V), RIM-7 Sea Sparrow (V & B), RIM-162 ESSM (V & B), RIM-116 RAM (B), AGM-114 Hellfire & AGM-179 JAGM (V & B, & helicopter-launched), Yes, many of these are traditionally known as surface-to-air missiles, but they are confirmed to have the capability to be launched against ships/boats. - Torpedoes: RUM-139 VL-ASROC (VLS rocket-boosted torpedo) and the Mark 32, 46, 48, 50, & 54 torpedoes. Some are designed for both ships and submarines and others are for submarines only. Mark 46 and 54 torpedoes may also be launched by helicopters and the P-8A Poseidon Maritime Patrol Aircraft. - Kinetic Weapons: 127mm cannon, 76mm cannon, 57mm cannon, 30mm & 25mm autocannons, Phalanx 20mm CIWS, M2 .50 cal machine gun, M240 machine gun (equipped as co-axial on some variants of USN autocannons). - Energy Weapons: Various laser and microwave weapons. Currently, laser weapons are deployed on very few USN vessels, but they are planned to be added to ships (and even submarines) at increasing rates in the future, including the DDG(X), the next-generation US Navy guided-missile destroyer. - Mines & Depth Charges: Mark 67 and Mark 60 CAPTOR sea mines; US Navy helicopters and maritime patrol aircraft use depth charges still, but I couldn’t find much information on them. Finally, in the relatively near future, the US Navy will deploy the Hypersonic Air-Launched Offensive Anti-Surface Warfare (HALO) hypersonic cruise missile and the Mako hypersonic missile, with both being fired from VLS on ships & submarines, and from aircraft. A new variant of the AGM-154C LRASM stealth cruise missile is currently under development to extend the range significantly, to about the same range or further than the Maritime Strike Tomahawk - so basically a Tomahawk with even more advanced sensors, stealthy, and sea-skimming. Theoretically, the Intermediate Range Conventional Prompt Strike (IRCPS) hypersonic missile currently being installed as a VLS weapon on the Zumwalt stealth guided missile destroyers, planned for the Virginia-class Block V, and DDG(X) next-generation guided-missile destroyers, would also be able to target ships, as it’s a precision-guided hypersonic glide vehicle.
I've spent about 3/4s of my 40 year career developing ASW systems (airborne, surface and sub-surface). Nice to see the Reapers touching the subject even if it was very lightly. PS - trying to be a bit positive after all the negative comments from other experts in the field.
If my memory serves, the Russian Alfa class was the first submarine that had its hull made from Titanium and was the deepest diving submarine because of that.
Sorry cap, but to have an sme give his time up for free, and then to have fly counter him, and you listened....... Poor show old chap. Unfortunately, you should have realised everytime you listen to fly in dcs, you all die...... Chances are it's going to carry over to a new sim. Feel sorry for the guy that joined you specially to help you out just being over talked when trying to give advice. Fly could try to learn he doesn't need to be on "send" permanently. Unfortunately this just leads to switching off after 10 mins listening to it as its just noise at that point not allowing other people to actually speak and give advice... .... Incorrect advice over talking an sme...... Embarrassing 😒
If you think the shipwreck is bad, there a sub launched asw missile like subroc that the soviets have adapted to surface use. So it is launched from the surface to go underwater, then suffaces and launches the missile that goes to the target and parachutes a torpedo back into the water to hunt the sub.
I love Fly, he always reminds me of “My Cousin Vinnie” as his “general automotive knowledge” with history and equipment is huge! However if you have an expert then it would be better to hear the expert engaged.
19:30 I’ve also heard that on US subs, maybe others, that any rotten eggs have to be cracked open, before being disposed of. Otherwise when they’re being disposed of they can make a whole lot of popping noises…
If enemy sub launched torpedo, snapshot down same bearing of incoming torpedo, drop noise maker, turn away, go deep, go fast, drop noise maker, turn away from noise maker, and … pray
Don't towed arrays have a maximum speed beyond which they are prone to snapping off? At least, all the old sub games I played required you to either spend time reeling them back in, or cutting then away if you wanted to go fast.
16:00 if I’m not mistaken, they don’t have to surface to launch these. And the ones on the Slavs class, the launch tubes are flooded before launch like they would be on the subs
While i usually enjoy your videos, i highly recommend you get into the game a bit before posting more. Especially the carrier and surface fleet battles were very frustrating to watch because of the amount of "what the hell are you doing with what you have available" and the fact that something like 4 iowas vs 4 sverdlovs, or 4 kriovs is just super boring. Especially if you start off with both ships in range and with visual on each other. This game works best if you actually play as intended, meaning more realistically based scenarios.
Soviet attack subs did use Wolfpack tactics to some extent. From what I remember, typically, two attack boats with a guided missile boat go out in the Atlantic and hunt CSGs. They would run the GIUK gap which had a SOSUS passive array on the ocean floor between the UK and Iceland. So NATO typically knew when a wolfpack was in the Atlantic. You can typically tell the difference between a diesel boat and a nuclear boat by the top speed. Diesel boats top out around 20 knots and are quieter than nuclear boats. The Soviet nuclear boats were noisy. NATO attack subs could get behind Soviet subs and sit about 800 to 1000 meters behind them. They got quieter after 1985 or 1986 as they got a hold of some CAD/CAM manufacturing gear from a Norwegian company that allowed them to improve the quality of the propellers which reduced the cavitation produced by the propellers. Also, while some Soviet subs are named Victor I, II, and III they are very different subs. For the SH2 to use its dipping sonar you have to be stopped and at the lowest altitude setting. Active Sonar is "short" range. Typically you use it if something gets inside your helicopter screen. Edit: MK46 torpedoes are lightweight and have a small warhead. You want to have your helicopters approach from behind the sub if you can. If they can hit from behind they have a possibility of popping the prop shaft seals and killing the target sub with a single torpedo. Otherwise you'll need to hit a sub with multiple MK46s.
Fly knowledge of submarines and submarine warfare is kinna semi-correct. In ex. Oscar class lounched its missles at ~periscope depth, and the sub was design to carry missiles from the Kirov, not the way araund
Soviet subs would never try to intercept in the English Channel, as mentioned before. Also, you need to just drift to listen, 10kts is too fast. 1/3rd speed or all stop would be best, and let the surface group come to them.
Love the video's in general, big fan of your video's, also in general the contributions of Fly in alot of your content. But in this case, very frustrating how Fly talks over an actual expert.... That aside, I think its very nice you now switch between DCS and Sea Power, brings more variation.
Hey Cap, I know someone who isn’t a UA-cam but he is an IRL sonar operator and works on an Ohio Class SSBN in the pacific, he’s pretty experienced and knows too much info on how all that underwater stuff works, he plays cold waters so if you need someone in that field, let me know
Submarines look like they are going to be a lot of fun Cap. I don't know if the assets are in the game yet but how about looking at the Falklands engagement between HMS Conqueror and the AGA Belgrano at some point in the future .
CAP: this is probably like courting; everyone is telling you how to court better; if I may offer one constructive comment: is there a 'sprint and drift' option in the game? This allows a ship to sprint forward and then drift to listen. Thank you CAP for demonstrating sea power.
@@mfreed40k Absolutely, the one (The Fly guy) who have the least knowledge about the thing is just not letting the once who actually are giving good suggestions and seem to know about submarine warfare in modern era speak enough.
This was hard to watch.. Lol. Submarines require patience and the ability to make intelligent snap decisions on the fly. In the Navy there's a common saying, "There is only two types of ships, Submarines and targets". I'm not familiar with this particular game but I'd get in touch with a creator called Jive Turkey, he was a US Sonar Operator during the cold war and will get you squared away and is an extremely polite guy to boot. Cheers.
This Fly dude... Bro has no idea whats going on. like DoNT gO fASt when there is a bloody torpedo heading in. Shouldve brought in soneone with Cold Waters/ actual submarine experience like Jove Turkey who also plays this game
The sub would always loose in this scenario as the Submarine is known to be in the Area...it had lost the element of surprise before it event started. A real test would be to have an unknown attacker (could be surface, air, sub surface) facing this simulation. You knew there was a Submarine but what if you didnt know what was coming? 😊
snapshot is to make them turn and cut the wires on their torps so you can lose them in your knuckle from turn with noise maker.. more than 5knts cis subs are detectible.. can you do MAD runs with the magnetic gear on the helos and aircraft?
Can we please have one where we only have the expert talking and making decisions?
I would of liked to hear from the expert more. Everytime he tried to say something he was just cut off and talked over by Fly. Very frustrating tbh .
Yeah, I understand that he's very enthusiastic about this topic, and enthusiasm has its place too, but if you're actually trying to learn, hearing from those with knowledge tends to be best.
Brings in expert…
Listens to fly…
Seriously one of the most frustrating videos they've done.
but he's an anti sub warfare expert. His knowledge about driving a USSR sub is probably limited. Mine mostly comes from Clancy...
also fly has definitely put some hours in this game already.
If he is ASW expert and has already clocked some hours in the game, he should at least know how to use helos properly and how to use active search on ships. And what more, using your best ASW ship from the formation as a bait and telling it to go more than 5 knots with towed out is not a very good show for an ASW expert. So, I humbly disagree.
Poor guy just stopped talking after he realized they weren't listening to him. Here's common tactics, Fly: Let's not do that and do this completely different instead.
Retired USN submariner 77 to 97 - well, the kindest thing I can say is, at least you guys admitted at the beginning that you didn't have the first bloody idea what you were doing with submarines and ASW warfare. And your "expert" is also pretty light on his knowledge of submarines.
If you're talking about Fly, then he's not the "expert" - he's the guy who always talks over the expert
Fly is incorrect....use noise makers to decoy passive sonar. You may hear high frequency props from a weapon in the water....drop a noise maker, alter course 90 degrees. Red submarines are a generation or 2 noisier than western boats....until you get to the Akula....which was a very dangerous opponent. I served on UK S class boats
I was a RN communicator for many years and worked alongside the warfare guys on these ASW exercises than I can remember. Cap, I know he's your mate but stop listening to Fly Fly, sorry to tell you but you have sod all idea of ASW warfare, either on or below the surface. Especially when you override the guys there who obviously know what they're doing! Stick to aeroplanes mate.
Also, English Channel/North Sea/Baltic are all very shallow. Not a great place for nuclear submarines, but your sub attack would have been much different if you'd picked the smaller diesel boats. On electric motors these things are totally quiet whereas nucs still have a certain level of noise,admittedly almost nothing. Try the British and European diesel bboats next time you fight in shallow water. Keep the nucs for the deep water.
The English channel might have been a very bad pick to try submarine warfare as it's incredibly shallow and gives the surface vessels a huge advantage in locating the submarine, the Atlantic or Artic ocean would be a better choice.
Also it very busy there, probably about as loud as a Motorhead concert. 🤘😀
@@Slikx666 LOL
@@Slikx666 Or Budgie
@@cg9952
Having had one, I agree. 😆
@@cg9952 That would be more in the Bristol Channel than the English.
OMG. I realize fly isn’t speaking his native language, and is far better at a 2nd language than myself, but holy shit does he speak a lot but doesn’t say much. Let the expert get a few words in please.
Could not have said it better myself.
Fly speaks non stop and says almost nothing.
Attempt 1:
Cap: A torpedo is hunting us!
Pony The Expert: Shoot a torpedo, drop noisemakers, turn as hard as you can.
Fly: I actually wouldn't do that. Do what Pony said(?) just without noisemakers.
*Sub gets hit twice*
Cap: I wonder what we did wrong?
Fly: I wonder too.
Pony The Expert: *silence*
Attempt 2:
Cap: What do we do, guys?
Pony The Expert: When they cross the red circle, turn in, flank speed, shoot, then run away.
Fly: But that makes us a target. What we should do is wait a bit longer, turn in, flank speed, shoot, then run away.
So what I'm getting is that you've got Pony, a trained ASW dude likely with knowledge of how a submarine would operate (because he's got to know what to look out for) and Fly, who just disagrees with Pony then rephrases what Pony said only with a slight modification to make things worse. I'm not learning about submarine warfare or being entertained. In fact it's rather the opposite.
I get that you're [Cap] chatting with your chums and they may have more experience in this game, but your chums are there to offer you guides how to do things. Pony is there to tell you how to win and to give you the benefit of his real world experience. If he's not given the opportunity to speak and Fly is too busy making himself look bad then... why bother?
I don't think I've ever disliked a GR video before, but this one gets a thumbs down.
My advice is to try again. Just you and Pony. A no Fly zone, if you will.
Even the so called expert Pony does not know a whole lot, just bits and pieces.
"When they cross the red circle, turn in, flank speed, shoot, then run away...", why ? why go flank speed ? want to reveal your position ?? and they even want to shoot going flank, as if its a javelin throw that you need run up !! Its a sub, shooting while going flank will jam the tube, cause even more trouble. But none of this fact was even thought of.
@Arks1103 I think that launching a torpedo will be a big enough giveaway as to the sub's position, so going to flank speed will give the torp a little extra kick if fired at max range without giving the enemy any additional info before turning away at a lower speed. I can't speak as to jamming the tube, though. Good thinking.
Either that, or Pony is just informing us what he has been trained to expect from Russian sub doctrine.
It would be interesting to find out, and we may well have found out if FLY HAD SHUT THE HELL UP.
Ideally, the sub should turn away from the target, cut off propulsion, string the towed out, and once speed is less than 5 knots (if it was going any faster then 5 knots at the first place, which is itself a bummer), then fire the torps. The hull will mask the noise of torp launching. Going fast and launching at high speeds will do nothing, it's a torpedo, it does not require run up. Launching at high speeds definitely jams the tube, I am sure of it. AND YES, FLY NEEDS TO SHUT UP.
You learned plenty. Don’t listen to Fly when it comes to submarine warfare. 😂
@@Arks1103 Well, I think we can agree on the most important thing, at least :)
Cap, You were listening to the wrong guy
There's another guy named @jiveturkeylive who used to be a sonarman on the USS Dallas. He's played this and Cold Waters a lot.
Jive turkey is excellent and his other channel, sub brief, is great for real world information too.
Jive is the best at this game so far.
I was really hoping he was doing a video with jive. I think that would make for a great video and cap would be able to learn alot.
The Dallas? That’s Bart Mancuso’s boat.
Jive is a literal encyclopedia when it comes to Submarines and life on board. Aswell as classified info he can't disclose.
I a Sonar Tech on US subs, and you have all successfully given me an aneurysm
Apart from what's been already said about Fly talking too much, Cap not listening to the expert, and the English Channel being a poor place for nuclear subs, I'll add in my two cents. What I see here is too many cooks (err...captains) in the kitchen. Everybody's talking and nobody's listening much. Another issue with a lot of these simulator games is that Cap and Fly have more experience with DCS (a tactical aircraft simulator), but little to no experience with an operations simulator like Sea Power. (I mean, Sea Power is basically Command: Modern Operations...reduced fat version. That game has a near vertical learning curve and is 100x more complex, but with less flashy graphics.) As a result, they're trying to play it like a tactical sim that requires faster reflexes, when in reality it requires careful and considered planning, along with an understanding of systems and tactics. It's much more abstract. Granted that they're learning how to play the game, but Cap is frequently suffering from task and information overload. Fly is talking too much and distracting everyone from the overall picture. As a result, Cap is getting hyperfixated on things and ends up mindlessly clicking around and wasting time. This isn't exclusive to Cap, but I see a lot of new players suffer from this.
Yeah, this game reminds me a lot of battle stations midway and battle stations Pacific but even though that was World War II, there’s still similar tactics at play, and it gets frustrating to watch all these guys that don’t know how to play that sort of game.
Cap I love your videos but you had somebody who knew a lot information about the submarine warfare and ignored him to listen to Fly, this was very frustrating.
Fly was the guy in sub school who thinks he knew better than the instructors.
I basically agree, but every now and then I appreciate a good GR dumpster fire. That said, I look forward to Cap getting a better handle on Sea Power. The big carrier battle was quite the shitshow too.
You got pinged by flys constant talking in the sub 😂
If they're going to find your towed array with sonar, they're going to find you with sonar - you're a much bigger target, so deploying a passive towed array will not have any detriment. Actually, since it is _behind_ you, it will detect sounds in your baffles way more easily than your own sonar will.
Naval Guy- "Well the standard tactic is to do x"
Fly- "The fuck does the navy know? Ive played Cold Waters. Do y!"
"I wonder what we did wrong?" Did you want that in chronological order or alphabetic? - Former sonar tech on 688 and 688i
edit: Fly's going to get you killed. On the bright side, you'll probably burn to death when the atmosphere diesels, long before you have a chance to drown when the torpedo hits. So there's that.
even the worst skipper ever graduated from a sub training school would give a thousand times better suggestions then what that fly was giving. He was just so wrong about every single fact and tactics, plus the confidence of shutting actual experts up.
Also a STS...my head hurts now. Saying a sub could be a awacs was the funniest thing I have ever heard. Whoever that guy is with the Russian accent is gave some terrible advice.
Also, because of the screw noise, there's an area directly behind the submarine called the "baffles" that a submarine can't hear anything. The towed array gets a passive sonar out beyond your submarine's noise, allowing you to hear in your baffles.
‘baffles’ are present on towed arrays, in rl the size is ‘secret’, but let’s call it 15 or so degrees, a lot less than the 45+ of using front and lateral arrays and a whole lot less than maybe 90-180 degrees with forward arrays only.
It also helps in triangulating sonar contacts. There's no downside to deploying the towed array, apart from the fact you'll need to reel it back in before going on a sprint or you'll risk ripping it off.
I spent too many years on Royal Navy Towed Array frigates in the cold war. ASW is sloooowww... until its not! Both subs and frigates keep their speed very slow (2-3 knots from memory) to reduce their noise and improve detection ranges. Regular turns to clear the baffles and to get postive confirmation of contact. Towed array used to give you two directions to a contact ie 90 degrees to starboard or 90 degress to port, the only way to know which one was the real contact was to turn the ship and see which contact remained on the same bearing. Short sprints to get into postion, rinse and repeat. The frigate would aways try to keep the sub at arms length and use the helicopter as the main method of attack. You can't do anything quickly with your array out, slow turns at slow speed or risk losing the array. Passive sensors as much as possible, active sensors give your postion away so would rarely be used.
There's a reason that Britain bases its Nuclear submarines in Scotland and not in the Channel - access to deep water...
Picked a shitty place to practice operating subs in shallow water is highly dangerous. Expert level. Even DCS Fly normally gets you killed.
Clicks video to learn ASW tactics from a professional
It's just Fly sperging out for an hour
To close on target, go deep, point nose to intercept targets, sprint for a few minutes, then slow down turn left or right for enough time to listen for the target and listen for subs following you. Don’t turn too much while listening. After you get a fix on target, turn again to intercept and repeat. When you shoot turn away from target, maybe parallel to its course to give yourself to reduce time of turn if you need to runaway.
Yes the helos can dip between the layers with dipping sonar and their sonabuoys can also drop their sensors through the layers at adjustable levels
The notion of the Alpha was that it could outrun homing torpedoes. Outrun meaning that it can slow the rate of closing enough that the torpedo runs out of fuel before getting close enough. Of course, being loud makes it easier to track, especially if it has to go fast; antisub helicopters can then launch from in front. Subs going a max speed can't hear very well. All that is probably why the Soviets never made an equally fast follow-on class.
so frustrating to listen to everyone bicker and talk over each other lol. I know it's going to take time to learn, keep it up cap
Btw, quick tip for doing ASW with surface ships: dont bother trying to hide. The sub is gonna have a much easier time finding you than you are finding it, even if you’re sitting completely still, because a surface ship is not designed to be quiet like a submarine is. Always assume the submarine knows _exactly_ where you are, because it probably does.
And here’s a tip for when you are a submarine and you’ve been fired on: the second you see that a torp’s gone active, drop a noisemaker, fire a decoy in the direction of the torpedo if you can, turn slightly, change your depth, and keep going, dropping a noisemaker every so often until the torp’s completely lost you, then you want to go as quiet as you possibly can while still moving, and you wait. When a torp’s active on you, you need to have as many sources of noise in the area as possible, to make it harder for the torpedoes, and the surface ships, to hit you. The torpedoes go for noise, so you basically want to treat evading them like you’re trying to take out an air defense system, and overwhelm them with targets.
Also, my Dad served on submarines in the US Navy. According to him, the sub wouldn’t restock on food at a “secret location.” It would do so at port, before even leaving for patrol, which could last roughly 4-6 months. Once their patrol started, they would not stop to restock until their patrol ended, nd they were back in port. And I should point out that the US Navy does not operate any diesel-electric submarines - if its a US Navy sub, its nuclear.
You can change speed/depth etc by clicking on the readouts in the bottom left. Don't have to navigate all the way though the drop-down.
This is like watching penguins climb trees.
😆
So if you find yourself in legal trouble, will you listen to your lawyer or your friend who once played Ace Attorney?
Radar on submarines is a WWII thing. US subs had air warning radar, some German subs had Seetakt (a primitive radar, with dipoles on the front of the tower, only able to see a few miles and only +-30° from straight ahead. Sometimes useful in fog or rain.
As a former AW (ASW sensor operator) in SH-60s this brings back so many memories and I would love to see more of these!
My lord, that active sonar sounds exactly like the real thing!
30:45 I mean what on earth is fly thinking, does he even know how submarine warfare works in modern era, the other guy was absolutely right, fire snapshot, deploy noisemaker and run, once the stealth factor of a sub is gone, there is no point in going slow and hoping the MG 44 would save you.
1:01:14 "We try to use knowledge and stuff from cold water....", knowledge, about how to get sunk, yeah you definitely have a lot of that !! CAP, please listen to actual experts or maybe even try to research some stuff on own to avoid such situations in content creation.
Imagine second guessing someone with 15yrs experience.
If you really want to learn submarine warfare Cap, I would recommend you try Cold Waters, it's a purely submarine focused game, and as such, you have a lot more control over what your sub does and how it does it and etc... Plus, it has tutorials and there are excellent mods as well that add surface vessels and more weaponry.
that's the problem. They want a complete war sim, nut just sub only. And that's what this game is hopefully good at. They played one of those sub sims in multiplayer a long time ago. That was quite fun.
Sea Powers ASW incorporates every lesson we learned from making Cold Waters and is much more realistic. Cold Waters is more of a pure 80's style action sub sim.
The TSA (Towed SONAR* Array) also lets subs basically see in their blind spot since there is no SONAR* in the aft section of a sub because that's where the screws are located.
*Sound Navigation and Ranging (SONAR)
That guy giving advice doesn’t know anything about asw
Correction: The Kursk was an Oscar-class submarine. 😉
Yeah I believe he meant to say Red October, cause that submarine, while not real, was based on the very real Typhoon-class SSBN.
Seeing Fly and Violet back lately feels like old times! However you're working with a (potentially) far superior game to DCS for the types of battles you guys like to run, I cannot wait to see some combined fleet battles with subs and ASW involved at the same time!
Sub displacement variation between USSR and USA might be down to a difference in Single Hull vs Double Hull design.
Shout out to H I Sutton for making much informative content regarding submarines.
Access to Titanium too
I used to scuba dive and i experienced a thermal layers many times. Once i managed to stop and float right on the thermal. 78 degrees Fahrenheit above and 38 below. It is a distinct line in the water. My back was warm and my belly was cold. Apparently there were 2 more by the time we got to 100ft, but i couldnt feel the difference.
kinda cool when the lower layer looks solid and your friends disappear and all you can see is their bubbles coming up through what looks like mud - until you also descend through the 'mud' layer and you can see them again :)
As everyone else has said, sometimes you have to tune out the loudest voices to hear the correct information.
I'll let others give their brilliant tactical insights...loving these myself - it's fun watching the learning curve!
You DEFINITELY want to fire a snap shot torpedo along the line of approach of the incoming enemy torpedo.
If it's a ship or sub, you're forcing them into an evasive turn that may break the guidance wire, so their torp will have to go autonomous or active sooner. The enemy can no longer correct the torpedo course or tell it to ignore suspected decoys.
I deploy a decoy AND noisemakers, make a sharp turn and radically alter depth. You want to get as far away from the detection point (and your previous course) as possible and cause the enemy sonarmen as much confusion and noise as possible while you either sprint or skulk away.
FYI creeping below the layer at 3 knots you'll be virtually impossible to detect unless a helo dips right above you and goes active, or active sonobuoys are dropped at just the right depth very close to you. At that speed, Russian subs won't hear you unless you're incredibly unlucky.
the reason you use a towed sonar array is because the sonar on your ship/submarine is often blocked by the propulsion.
Towing a sonar behind your propeller means you can listen behind you as well. There's no downside to having one out but you can break the wire by moving too erratically
The extended range of the Type 65-76 torpedo nicely covers the width of the Strait of Hormuz.
I love that Microprose is back and making/publishing brilliant simulations.
Thank you for the video as always, Cap and GR! This is a long one (that's what she said)!
I’ve written an overview of modern USN submarines and also added a list of all US Navy weapons deployed against enemy ships, boats, and submarines for those of you who may be interested.
Los Angeles-class Nuclear-Powered Fast Attack Submarines (SSN; 24 Active & 36 Retired): This is pretty accurate compared to what's in Sea Power, but all Flight I variants have been retired. The remaining active boats are Flight II and Flight III, and both have 12 VLS tubes for Tomahawk cruise missiles. They are also able to attack with Mk 48 torpedoes, Mark 67/Mark 60 CAPTOR mines, and Harpoons, all via the torpedo tubes (modern-day Harpoons are a newer variant, and there’s still ongoing development to this day, despite newer weapons having been developed). The USN actually removed the Tomahawk missile’s capability to attack ships with the collapse of the Soviet Union and resulting lack of a blue-water navy threat for a few decades. However, with the increasing threat from China, the USN has just recently started to deploy the upgraded Tomahawk Block VA & VB; the VB is an upgraded land-attack model, and the VA is known as the Maritime Strike Tomahawk ("MST"), which has the capability to attack moving ships at a public estimated range of 1,000 miles. It will be fired from all applicable USN submarine models (which are designed to launch cruise missiles), in addition to any ship that has VLS capability.
Seawolf-class Nuclear-Powered Fast Attack Submarines (SSN; 3 Active): A larger and legendary SSN, essentially rated as the best and most-capable attack submarine ever created at the time of its deployment, and in some respects, still surpasses even more modern USN submarines. Only three of a planned 20 were built due to the high cost. Eight torpedo tubes versus the traditional four tubs on other USN SSN attack boats. No vertical launch tubes, but the torpedo tubes were designed to use a sleeve with Tomahawk cruise missiles to be fired just like the Harpoons; it's not known if that capability is currently used. Otherwise, it can hold up to 50 Mark 48 guided torpedoes/Harpoons/Tomahawks.
Virginia-class Nuclear-Powered Fast Attack Submarines (SSN; 24 Active & 66 Planned): The current workhorse of the USN, currently on Block V and a Block VI is planned, each one commissioned is essentially replacing a Los Angeles class being decommissioned. An all-around amazing submarine and each Block has added further capabilities. The item worth mentioning for Block V is the introduction of the Virginia Payload Module (“VPN”) which increases the classes’ standard array of 12 VLS tubes firing Tomahawk cruise missiles, adding an extra 28 VLS tubes for 48 total. This is being done to replace the VLS capacity lost when the Ohio-class SSGN’s retire by the early 2030’s or so (see below).
Ohio-class Nuclear-Powered Ballistic Missile Submarines (SSBN; 14 Active & 0 Retired): Built to ensure the US can maintain it’s secondary (follow-up) attack capability if the US were to be attacked with a nuclear weapon and maintain the submarine-launched 1/3rd of the nuclear weapon “triad” of deterrents. Each boat has four torpedo tubes and 20x UGM-133 Trident II submarine-launched ballistic missiles, each with a range of around 7,600 to 12,000 kilometers based on the number of warheads carried at a top-speed of 29,000 km per hour, accurate to within 100 meters, and containing one to twelve nuclear warheads (MIRVS) per missile.
Ohio-class Nuclear-Powered Cruise Missile Submarines (SSGN; 4 Active & 0 Retired): These Ohio-class boats were converted from carrying ballistic nuclear missiles, to carry a total of 154 Tomahawk cruise missiles. Each of the four boats has approximately the same number of Tomahawk cruise missiles available to be fired as the entirety of a modern US Navy Carrier Strike Group (about four destroyers and one or two attack submarines). The Ohio SSGN’s are capable of firing other missiles as well, as their VLS tubs designed to fit Tomahawks can be removed (they are sleeved basically), allowing for other “sleeve” patterns designed around supersonic or hypersonic missile designs to be installed, at the potential expense of carrying fewer overall missiles depending on their size. They also have four torpedo tubes per USN standards. These boats will be retired over the next decade or so, which is why the Virginia-class VPM was designed. There’s also the possibility of extending the Columbia-class production line by adding a few more boats to the tail-end of their manufacturing schedule, for a similar conversion process resulting in super-SSGN boats, carrying Tomahawks, and whatever other advanced missiles that are available in the 2040’s and 2050’s.
Columbia-class Nuclear-Powered Fast Attack Submarines (SSBN; 1 Under Construction & 12 Planned): The direct replacement for the Ohio SSBN, and essentially a super high-tech and high-performance improvement over the Ohio to ensure the US maintains superiority over adversary attack submarines hunting for these boats. Each boat will have four torpedo tubes and 16x Trident D5 submarine-launched ballistic missiles. The new Trident’s will be improvements over the older variants, which is difficult to imagine given the range, accuracy, and payload of the Trident II.
SSN(X)-class (Improved Virginia) Nuclear-Powered Fast Attack Submarines (SSN; 0 Active & TBD Planned): This is the US Navy’s long-term plan for the next attack submarine to begin replacing the Virginia-class when those Block I boats begin to retire. The planned build-date is around 2040, and the goal is to essentially develop a future-proof all-around beat of a submarine, with the increased size and stealth of the Seawolf-class, the VLS volume of the Block V Virginia-class with VPM, and the absolute best technology possible to ensure it remains ahead of all near-peer potential adversaries. One goal is to use the US military’s current goal of integrating all sensor and intelligence data from all assets deployed, from the smallest unmanned vessel (torpedo-sized or smaller) to the satellite networks orbiting overhead, which then allow the most suitable asset anywhere in the world to fire the most suitable weapon for the target type and location. With that in-mind, they’re working to develop a torpedo that can be launched at a target over 200 nautical miles away, to be guided by another asset closer to the target as it goes terminal.
As an appendix to this list, here’s an overview of current US Navy weapons to attack ships, boats, and submarines at various ranges. Excluded from this list would be weapons exclusively for air targets (such as the SM-3) and land targets (such as the Tomahawk variants other than the MST).
A “V” indicates they are capable of being launched from a Vertical Launch System (VLS), either the Mark 41 or Mark 57, and a “B” indicates they are capable of being launched from a box-launcher (or dedicated platform like the SeaRAM for RIM-116) located on the deck of a vessel.
- Missiles: Maritime Strike Tomahawk cruise missile (V & B), AGM-158C LRASM stealth cruise missile (air-launched, in the future V & B), Naval Strike Missile cruise missile (V & B), RGM-84 Harpoon (B), AGM-84H/K SLAM-ER (air-launches), AGM-119 Penguin (air-launched), RIM-66/RIM-156 SM-2 (V), RIM-174 SM-6 (V), RIM-7 Sea Sparrow (V & B), RIM-162 ESSM (V & B), RIM-116 RAM (B), AGM-114 Hellfire & AGM-179 JAGM (V & B, & helicopter-launched), Yes, many of these are traditionally known as surface-to-air missiles, but they are confirmed to have the capability to be launched against ships/boats.
- Torpedoes: RUM-139 VL-ASROC (VLS rocket-boosted torpedo) and the Mark 32, 46, 48, 50, & 54 torpedoes. Some are designed for both ships and submarines and others are for submarines only. Mark 46 and 54 torpedoes may also be launched by helicopters and the P-8A Poseidon Maritime Patrol Aircraft.
- Kinetic Weapons: 127mm cannon, 76mm cannon, 57mm cannon, 30mm & 25mm autocannons, Phalanx 20mm CIWS, M2 .50 cal machine gun, M240 machine gun (equipped as co-axial on some variants of USN autocannons).
- Energy Weapons: Various laser and microwave weapons. Currently, laser weapons are deployed on very few USN vessels, but they are planned to be added to ships (and even submarines) at increasing rates in the future, including the DDG(X), the next-generation US Navy guided-missile destroyer.
- Mines & Depth Charges: Mark 67 and Mark 60 CAPTOR sea mines; US Navy helicopters and maritime patrol aircraft use depth charges still, but I couldn’t find much information on them.
Finally, in the relatively near future, the US Navy will deploy the Hypersonic Air-Launched Offensive Anti-Surface Warfare (HALO) hypersonic cruise missile and the Mako hypersonic missile, with both being fired from VLS on ships & submarines, and from aircraft. A new variant of the AGM-154C LRASM stealth cruise missile is currently under development to extend the range significantly, to about the same range or further than the Maritime Strike Tomahawk - so basically a Tomahawk with even more advanced sensors, stealthy, and sea-skimming. Theoretically, the Intermediate Range Conventional Prompt Strike (IRCPS) hypersonic missile currently being installed as a VLS weapon on the Zumwalt stealth guided missile destroyers, planned for the Virginia-class Block V, and DDG(X) next-generation guided-missile destroyers, would also be able to target ships, as it’s a precision-guided hypersonic glide vehicle.
If enemy torpedo in the air water , drop noise maker, turn away, go deep, go fast, drop noise maker, turn away from noise maker, and … pray
I've spent about 3/4s of my 40 year career developing ASW systems (airborne, surface and sub-surface). Nice to see the Reapers touching the subject even if it was very lightly. PS - trying to be a bit positive after all the negative comments from other experts in the field.
My old pc sub game:
"Torpedo in the water!"
"Dive, dive, dive!"
"We lost our towed array!"
D'oh!
If my memory serves, the Russian Alfa class was the first submarine that had its hull made from Titanium and was the deepest diving submarine because of that.
I love your guys enthusiasm. Imagine if there was multiplayer and you all had a free for all.
Sorry cap, but to have an sme give his time up for free, and then to have fly counter him, and you listened....... Poor show old chap.
Unfortunately, you should have realised everytime you listen to fly in dcs, you all die...... Chances are it's going to carry over to a new sim.
Feel sorry for the guy that joined you specially to help you out just being over talked when trying to give advice.
Fly could try to learn he doesn't need to be on "send" permanently. Unfortunately this just leads to switching off after 10 mins listening to it as its just noise at that point not allowing other people to actually speak and give advice... .... Incorrect advice over talking an sme...... Embarrassing 😒
This game is awesome and well-suited to this channel. Thoroughly enjoyable, and ASW is objectively one of the best subjects.
If you think the shipwreck is bad, there a sub launched asw missile like subroc that the soviets have adapted to surface use. So it is launched from the surface to go underwater, then suffaces and launches the missile that goes to the target and parachutes a torpedo back into the water to hunt the sub.
I love Fly, he always reminds me of “My Cousin Vinnie” as his “general automotive knowledge” with history and equipment is huge! However if you have an expert then it would be better to hear the expert engaged.
Keep in mind the USN also has a few SSGNs (cruise missle) converted from the Ohio class SSBN.
Those conversations didn’t start until 2002, Sea Power takes place in the mid 80’s.
Basically '65 to '85
Skipjack, Permit and Sturgeon classes predated the Los Angeles (and Improved Los Angeles, which added the VLS tubes).
Is it possible to get a P3 Orion to fly ahead of you looking for subs? Surely there'd one or two stationed in the UK at that time?
19:30 I’ve also heard that on US subs, maybe others, that any rotten eggs have to be cracked open, before being disposed of. Otherwise when they’re being disposed of they can make a whole lot of popping noises…
If enemy sub launched torpedo, snapshot down same bearing of incoming torpedo, drop noise maker, turn away, go deep, go fast, drop noise maker, turn away from noise maker, and … pray
Don't towed arrays have a maximum speed beyond which they are prone to snapping off? At least, all the old sub games I played required you to either spend time reeling them back in, or cutting then away if you wanted to go fast.
I don't know if they would snap, but once you're going fast enough they're more or less useless because of the cavitation from the screws
16:00 if I’m not mistaken, they don’t have to surface to launch these. And the ones on the Slavs class, the launch tubes are flooded before launch like they would be on the subs
While i usually enjoy your videos, i highly recommend you get into the game a bit before posting more. Especially the carrier and surface fleet battles were very frustrating to watch because of the amount of "what the hell are you doing with what you have available" and the fact that something like 4 iowas vs 4 sverdlovs, or 4 kriovs is just super boring. Especially if you start off with both ships in range and with visual on each other.
This game works best if you actually play as intended, meaning more realistically based scenarios.
Has been the most frustrating series of videos I've ever watched on UA-cam. Game has so much potential to be a modern Harpoon ... But nah.
Soviet attack subs did use Wolfpack tactics to some extent. From what I remember, typically, two attack boats with a guided missile boat go out in the Atlantic and hunt CSGs. They would run the GIUK gap which had a SOSUS passive array on the ocean floor between the UK and Iceland. So NATO typically knew when a wolfpack was in the Atlantic.
You can typically tell the difference between a diesel boat and a nuclear boat by the top speed. Diesel boats top out around 20 knots and are quieter than nuclear boats.
The Soviet nuclear boats were noisy. NATO attack subs could get behind Soviet subs and sit about 800 to 1000 meters behind them. They got quieter after 1985 or 1986 as they got a hold of some CAD/CAM manufacturing gear from a Norwegian company that allowed them to improve the quality of the propellers which reduced the cavitation produced by the propellers. Also, while some Soviet subs are named Victor I, II, and III they are very different subs.
For the SH2 to use its dipping sonar you have to be stopped and at the lowest altitude setting. Active Sonar is "short" range. Typically you use it if something gets inside your helicopter screen.
Edit: MK46 torpedoes are lightweight and have a small warhead. You want to have your helicopters approach from behind the sub if you can. If they can hit from behind they have a possibility of popping the prop shaft seals and killing the target sub with a single torpedo. Otherwise you'll need to hit a sub with multiple MK46s.
Fly knowledge of submarines and submarine warfare is kinna semi-correct. In ex. Oscar class lounched its missles at ~periscope depth, and the sub was design to carry missiles from the Kirov, not the way araund
Radar still limited to horizon, so surface search radar for a sub is almost certainly only used for coming into port.
The sub will AWAYS hear the surface ship before it hears the sub. Keep your radar on, keep it a picket going.
This scenario is not posible the sub will hear the sonobuoys splash into the water and will change direction or go silent.
Soviet subs would never try to intercept in the English Channel, as mentioned before. Also, you need to just drift to listen, 10kts is too fast. 1/3rd speed or all stop would be best, and let the surface group come to them.
Well, his beats wargames, thats for sure...
You should read “Red Storm Rising “ to get a sense of how to do sub ops . I’m sure there are other good reads out there as well.
Love the video's in general, big fan of your video's, also in general the contributions of Fly in alot of your content. But in this case, very frustrating how Fly talks over an actual expert....
That aside, I think its very nice you now switch between DCS and Sea Power, brings more variation.
Sea Power by Alan Partridge. Great video though, highly informative.
Hey Cap, I know someone who isn’t a UA-cam but he is an IRL sonar operator and works on an Ohio Class SSBN in the pacific, he’s pretty experienced and knows too much info on how all that underwater stuff works, he plays cold waters so if you need someone in that field, let me know
Maybe there's a few former submarine weapons officers on the channel....😊
"Let's ignore the guy who knows submarine tactics. Every time he has a suggestion, let's listen to the German DCS gamer instead."
You need to be slow above layer. 2/3 speed is very fast for sub warfare
Submarines look like they are going to be a lot of fun Cap. I don't know if the assets are in the game yet but how about looking at the Falklands engagement between HMS Conqueror and the AGA Belgrano at some point in the future .
Should have contacted Jingles :)
4:50 - almost all submarines have a towed array. It just only gets used in specific circumstances IIRC.
CAP: this is probably like courting; everyone is telling you how to court better; if I may offer one constructive comment: is there a 'sprint and drift' option in the game? This allows a ship to sprint forward and then drift to listen. Thank you CAP for demonstrating sea power.
Mom can we have an expert?
No we have an expert at home
Expert from Wish:
I knew we were in for a ride when he said Kursk was a Typhoon😂
The expert is being over talked by two guys babbling in broken English.
@@mfreed40k Absolutely, the one (The Fly guy) who have the least knowledge about the thing is just not letting the once who actually are giving good suggestions and seem to know about submarine warfare in modern era speak enough.
Damn, the comment section's being rawdogged by bots right now
This was hard to watch.. Lol. Submarines require patience and the ability to make intelligent snap decisions on the fly. In the Navy there's a common saying, "There is only two types of ships, Submarines and targets". I'm not familiar with this particular game but I'd get in touch with a creator called Jive Turkey, he was a US Sonar Operator during the cold war and will get you squared away and is an extremely polite guy to boot. Cheers.
The Russian subs are so heavy because of the amount of Vodka they have to carry
That guy has zero clue on sub management. I captain a submersible and you can get the clear picture they never served on one. Down bubble always
I don't think that water is deep enough to have a thermocline.
Much fun, more please!
Every time I hear Fly, I think of the three pigs from Shrek. That makes Cap… Lord Farquad. In case anyone was wondering what they were listening to…
Getting sea power next week. I am going to focus on ASW
Fly should stick to flying.
Helo can both use a dipping sonar and sonobouys. Both can search above and below layer
This Fly dude... Bro has no idea whats going on. like DoNT gO fASt when there is a bloody torpedo heading in. Shouldve brought in soneone with Cold Waters/ actual submarine experience like Jove Turkey who also plays this game
Had an expert..... And fly and koro just over talked them with nothing but incorrect noise
The sub would always loose in this scenario as the Submarine is known to be in the Area...it had lost the element of surprise before it event started. A real test would be to have an unknown attacker (could be surface, air, sub surface) facing this simulation. You knew there was a Submarine but what if you didnt know what was coming? 😊
Get in touch with Aaron Amick at the Sub Brief UA-cam channel. He's a retired US submariner sonar operator and he knows sub combat back to front!
Was there a USN ASW officer there? All I could hear was Fly
snapshot is to make them turn and cut the wires on their torps so you can lose them in your knuckle from turn with noise maker.. more than 5knts cis subs are detectible.. can you do MAD runs with the magnetic gear on the helos and aircraft?