Thank you, thank you, thank you for calling BS on the all the marketing crap they're dishing out. They're piling it high and deep. This looks like a repeat of what Talyor's marketing grease ball weasels did with their V-bracing.
Oh the V-class bracing marketing campaign was HORRIBLE. Taylor sent all their reps to all their top retail stores with give aways and brain washing... They went hard on influencers to say nice things. First week those hit store shelves I was in Fuller's Guitars in Houston, which is one of Taylor's premier dealers here. Tuesday morning, no one in the store. Me and the sales staff. I got to A-B test the 814ce and one of the 900 series, same model, both brand new, just different years. One X-braced, one V-Class braced... V-Class had more consistency up and down the neck, but with compromises to note decay and overall sustain. The X-braced versions just sounded better and I saw the sales clerks face turn red when I pointed this out. He reluctantly agreed with me, but the look said it all. He was confused, like a cult member finally breaking out a spell... Taylor guitars has no legacy like Martin and Gibson.. They bury their promotional artist pages because its full of players like Dave Matthews and Taylor Swift who abandoned their brand long ago for traditional or boutique builds. The only truly great acoustic player playing a Taylor guitar at this point is Leo Kottke and according to Spoon Phillips, Leo Kottke loves his Taylors primarly because the bolt-on neck lets him get a reset "before every show". Maybe someone should send Leo a boutique built with bolt-on! They are a company that must constantly project some new innovation gimmick in order to be relevant, so they over exaggerate in their marketing... As a business owner, I read Bob Taylor's bio and genuinely like the guy for his work ethic and factory automation genius. But one thing became very clear reading it, Bob Taylor and his company are all about making money and even the conservational work they give so much PR to always has roots in reduce overhead and controlling supply chain for Taylor. So much smoke & mirrors. Like the man, hate is company.
Well, no actually. They're speculating that it's just marketing crap. I'm going to go out on a limb here and guess that a company like Martin has far more advanced ways to determine how bracing and wood combinations will affect the sound of a guitar than a tiny boutique guitar builder.
I have, in addition to my Furch Yellow Master’s Choice, three Walden Guitars. Walden has been using low mass bracing (similar concept) since their 2020 relaunch in their 500 and up series. Walden’s happen to be very nicely built and great sounding guitars at an affordable price point. I chose my first Walden over a Taylor 214 for half the cost. I think Martin saw what Taylor did with their gimmicky V-Class bracing (terribly thin sounding guitars, I easily chose Furch over Taylor) and decided to have their own bracing angle as a marketing tool. But they are charging serious money. I think Walden’s design makes more sense than Martins to be honest.
I couldn’t agree more with everything you both said. I’m ambivalent about two of the 3 elements, but the “Sonic channels” will keep repairers in work for decades….
Hi guys. I consider myself an electric player. But since I've bought a Larivee OM9V I've changed my mind on acoustic playing. The difference in feel, in the overtones, in how the dissonances sound...now I'm enlightened. The difference between good acoustic (I had a good Seagull dreadnought) and a GREAT one is immense. I feel like John Mayer and create new songs just following the sound that the instrument suggest me. (I wish I coud sing or write lyrics like JM!!!). P.S. please, please, DON'T cut a Larrivee in half ;)
I thought you were on to something and thought I was understanding legit tonal aspects of an acoustic - in regards to overtones (for staters) - when it comes to getting beautiful chords to shine until you mentioned JM, the last showman I would consider a picker, a jazzster, a bluesman, or any kind of a guitar virtuoso.
Basically they have created trusses. Not a sparking new innovation. Often you will see big steel beams with round holes cut out of them to reduce weight without compromising strength. It's just engineering in its most basic form. It's not a bad idea if there is a need for it. It's still just a truss.
Cant say I agree with the concept. The real question is does it improve Sound, Strength and Longevity? Strength is in the grain not the pulp. Punching a bunch of holes in it would require the brace to be taller to make up for the sectional loss of the grain. Infact Chris's point of proper heigth bracing and "voiceing" would be much more of an improvement but that would require Martin to roll back the assembly line mentality. Frankly I think your pregame assesment is spot on. Sales gimmic by Exec. staff after strolling through someone elses attemps of innovation and marketing hip to counter Taylors V Brace hip, another not so new idea. Wounder what Gibson will come up with...?
I started using this type of bracing back in 2001 . It's another tool in the box but not really necessary , My bracing is designed to be both light and strong, without the mass of typical Martin's
I just bought an HD35. Love the sound, love the neck, but heck yeah - plastic binding and plastic bridge pins on a $3,400.00 guitar??!! I loved your final comment on their finally using a wood binding. My $500 Seagull and $1600 Eastman both have wood bindings!
Very interested to see the results of the breakdown. Id agree that the standard models are over built so the skeletonised approach seems unnecessary when they could just brace the guitar with lighter bracing (a step beyond the scalloped bracing)
just watching the Martin Video right now. Interestingly, they're saying using maple led them to reducing the size of the soundhole. I have an old 1960s Arnold Hoyer guitar with maple back and sides (flamed and quilted respectively) and it also has a small soundhole... And ladder bracing for that matter. I was planning on retiring this guitar, it's had two refrets, there's not much fretboard left. But went guitar shopping and had to get up to £1.5k before I started finding instruments that could complete. Nothing wrong with maple if you know how to use it.
The bracing reminds me of the design of real-world bridges. The ones built to accommodate movement while withstanding loads and forces. I'm interested to know what a structural engineer would say.
It's a variation of the boring old I Beam from 1849. Take most of the material and move it to the outside of a taller beam. You end up using less material to achieve the same moment of inertia (strength).
My Martin GPCPA4R is currently at an Authorized Martin dealer for a back binding repair. I love the guitar but the binding fell off gracefully as I was playing it. The authorized dealer said Martin had glue problem and he was surprised the binding fell off in one piece. I don't know much but that guitar has a satin finish on the sides and backs and that binding had the satin finish stuck to the binding.
As for maple, what's wrong with a Gibson SJ-200 or Taylor 614ce-618ce? There are also walnut backed guitars. The SC-13 was "new" and not so bad. But I like my D-28s VTS (12-fret). We'll see. Thanks
Can't wait to see the breakdown! Btw, what do you guys think of double tops on steel strings guitars ? I know i's not recent innovation but i'm really curious to know what pros think about it
Double tops were used in some French mandolins way back when. I have never tried one so don't know why they became a fad. Interesting to look at but foreign concept to me. What is the need?
@@TGriffiths-ve6nw it's quite common in classical guitar (even in the US), apparently the top is lighter and vibrates more and it makes the guitar much louder and the sound is better from what I found. Very rare on steel string guitars but it does exist
Talked to a Martin employee while visiting the Martin Factory. He told me that they were shutting down to re machine everything because Taylor was kicking their a*s. This was around 2018.
Spot on! Why make a guitar with maple when you haven't got a good word to say about it as a tonewood (never heard it called "harsh" before)? Why weaken the top with "sonic channels" when you can just reinforce it less with smaller bracing, or even bracing with holes in it? And since when did European spruce grow in Martin's backyard (or am I missing something)?
Well, there's nothing innovative here except that this bracing style is being used in a large factory setting, rather than by boutiques and single handers. Martin will have done their homework and be convinced it's worthwhile, and frankly 4k is affordable compared with singlehander competitors if you want that style of bracing. Maple? Yup that's fine; I've got an MC68 and it sounds great. I also have an HD35 (obviously with a 3 piece back) and it's amazing. I'd love to get my hands on one of these, and I love Martin, but from what you describe I'm not convinced its a great leap.
Glad you see it the same way as I did as I have been shouted down in a few forums of Martin lovers. There is so much they could have done but as you say invented in the boardroom and somebody had the Honey comb sketch they did in their lunch break and said I have this.any good. Look forward to the full Driftwood treatment
I love Martin guitars and have a couple of more traditional ones. Curious about this, sure, though the sound on UA-cam vids they’ve put out so far seems to lack depth.
Riversong uses skeletized bracing in their more expensive guitars. Guess when they beat out Martin to win the Musical Merchandise Review Dealers' Choice Awards in 2022, Martin executives took note. I would rather see you two do a breakdown of a Riversong guitar with their neck-through design.
Definitely want to see the breakdown on this. Also, hope I see you guys at NAMM! I would love to try a Driftwood acoustic if you'll have some demo instruments 😊 I am coming specifically to try boutique acoustics because that's my jam.
Not an instrument builder, but as an architectural designer, increasing beam depth increases both load capacity and/or reduces deflection. The latter aspect seems counterproductive to improving resonance, ie allowing the sound board to move more freely. Cutting holes in it modifies the beam into a lighter truss-like form, but the stiffness remains virtually the same. The added variable to this calculation would be beam width and depth, so if it tapers (especially in section) the impact on stiffness and resulting resonance would be very difficult to engineer in such small and variable sections of material. Bottom line is, to get the best balance of strength and deflection, you are back to hand tuning.
There are literally dozens of guitar builders/factories that produce $4k guitars ( OR LESS ) that'll blow ANY new $4k Martin clean out of the water. That's not my opinion, that's the fact of the matter. ME: 62 yr old highly accomplished guitarist/singer/blues harp/stage performer of many years all over east/central Florida........now "retired" from the club/lounge scene. I've been playing guitar alone for 50 yrs. Trust me when I tell ya: We are truly living in the golden age of lutherie right now. There are SO many phenomenal guitar factories, it's mind boggling. And let me tell ya something else: although I do love the GOOD Martins ( yet far too expensive, others are just as good if not better for less money )..........nowadays, Martin & Taylor both are screwing the hell out of people with grossly over-priced guitars that simply don't deliver for the price. By the way, I owned a Martin D-28 30 some years ago. I also owned a 614 Taylor that I bought new in 2005. After owning/playing/gigging with it for several months, I actually liked the sound of my 3 high end Japanese Takamine's better. I had to sell them all unfortunately, during that awful recession of '08 to save our home. But recently, I purchased 2 Hsienmo acoustic guitars only 3 weeks apart. Loved the first one so much, I rushed & bought the 2nd. Now I'm about to buy a 3rd. I'm here say: the world needs to be put on notice: Founder/owner Li Chen and his team of experienced luthiers are currently building the very best guitars in terms of value for your hard earned dollar. They cut NO corners & build even their lower priced models to the highest standards. And they need NO modifications "to make them sound better". My Hsienmo Custom Shop Grand Auditorium with 5A Adirondack spruce top & SOLID Honduran rosewood back & sides will smoke ANY new $4k Martin OR Taylor. And I only paid $2450.00......delivered to my front door with deluxe case. It'll take a Martin or Taylor costing well north of 10 GRAND to compete with it. Believe that. HSIENMO GUITARS. Check out their youtube channel & website. The word is spreading like wildfire. I only discovered them 3 months ago, and I'm having them custom build my 3rd one. That oughta tell ya something.
As an engineer and musician, those beams are using basic engineering i.e. all the stress is on the outer edges, the webing just keeps the edges apart ( think of an i - beam) the edges need maximum surface area, where all the stress is focused. The problem here is "wood " is an unstable material subject to humidity and shrikage etc. Time will tell I suppose?
Those braces are going to crack. A round hole will withstand vibration and seasonal changes and movement better than a hole with square or sharp corners. They have created weak points with those little "X's" instead of round or elliptical holes as was shown in the Ryan guitar braces. It's the same reason windows in airplanes are round or have rounded corners. Square or acute angles at corners do not take movement well, and they crack when things move or expand. If you say "why do steel trusses on bridges have have sharp angles?"...the answer is those connections are designed for movement and vibration and steel is ductile and can flex and bend quite a bit and return to it's original shape....wood grain is directional and does not have the flexural and shear strength in relation to it's cross section that steel has.
Yep. I’ve got a few takamines all maples that are tonally explosive and beautiful. Maple is a great tonal wood. Drums prove it too. My Taylor wild wood 814 CE also has maple implements built into it. Just a beautiful guitar and the maple binding is just gorgeous. Although not tonal as the main of my Taylor - the beauty of the maple gives it another element of class.
To me it breaks down to me that they have put more volume of bracing in then cut a lot of it back out. Why ? What is the volume left ? Probably the same as it was ? but hey it has a really nice pattern and therefore it MUST be better ? Martin Snake Oil. Just show us slo mo images of guitar top vibration tests !
Agreed on every point here. BTW, as John Ressler can tell you, walnut makes amazing guitars. Also, maple guitars can also be amazing. What is happening?!?! Build a 000-s walnut guitar. It'll be great. Build a maple guitar and figure out how to kill the overtones you don't like. It'll be great.
Spot on comment on Kevin Ryan and his bracing concept, that was the very first thing I thought of when I saw this. They also copied him on their titanium bridge pins on the Modern Deluxe series. Great to see them innovate and or attempt to innovate though. From a pricing perspective, I do find it appalling that the high volume builders are charging so much for basic tone woods. There’s never been a better time to buy exceptional, cost effective guitars. For example, Eastman among others are uniformly producing better sounding - on average - guitars for drastically less money. I love martin and Taylor, but costs are getting absurd for basic maple, EIR, Spruce et al guitars.
I think it’s a good idea to try and improve the status qou. Thing is, Martin didn’t really invent something new, Kevin Ryan gets that Honor..They took a design that was being implemented by other luthiers/small builders and tweaked it enough to calm their own. For 4k I can find small shop or hand built for almost that much, moreso used.
Martin have been manufacturing some strange guitars recently made out of weird synthetic materials. I used to love the brand but now not so much. The marketing BS put me off this guitar so I'll take a lot of convincing that it's good and worth the asking price.
Has it occurred to anyone that those braces might split length wise under a load? Right along those holes which should have round openings, but instead have sharp corners to exacerbate the problem.
This whole video is cheeky but in a fun way, and when Chris said this guitar could have been an email? Well that was just about the perfect way to put my thoughts into one sentence about this guitar. So, Martin, your looking a bit bruised and beaten- pull your tshirts down over your chests because you just got a good ol' fashioned and well deserved ribbing! Let me start off by saying I do love Martin. Such rich history and their contributions to the acoustic guitar, well.... 1833. Enough said. While it would be interesting to watch your jaws hit the floor once you have the Martin GPCELMNOP Inception Maple in your hands, I'm guessing that won't happen. I really want to play one, I'm a sucker for good marketing, but boy did a dude named Andy send you boys in Nazereth a cuppa Kool Aid or what? I truly hope I'm wrong. I'm guessing these guitars are going to sound amazing, but $4K amazing? I sure hope I'm so wrong that I go and buy one. I do dig the specs and nobody looks at the back of the guitar anyway 😆😆🤣😆🤣
Actually, I do want an acoustisonic. It would fill a slot for my performance regimen. Can't afford it. I told my kids, "I don't know what you're complaining about, you just ate yesterday."
Problem is that this is not affordable, so people can’t test this new technology without spending a lot of money. I recently saw a Chinese brand called Hsienmo which has its own factory with luthiers and stuff, and they’ve got a similar bracing on their grand auditorium model which starts at only $1200, which though obviously still expensive, I think is a much more reasonable price for if you want to try out an unusually braced guitar
The Mossman DH92…for collaborator at the time David Hallmark in 1992. They hollowed out braces. Seemed to make it louder in a mic. Several builders have since done it, and made various claims. I’ve seen it, played it in the DH92. Maybe works. Not sure of the longevity.
My Hozen acoustic is solid maple B&S Sitka top - voiced like a mandolin. Incredible sound, warm and woody. Suggest you do a study of these Hozen guitars. Please looks them up.
Isn’t it funny how hard it is to improve on some of the iconic, winning designs that set the bar. I’m sure some will say, we choose the pre war dreadnought because it’s what we are used to hearing..nah, it’s just magical. I’m up for innovation. The guitar just has to impress me sonically/acoustically. That’s all. Sometimes it’s weird - people have tried to remake the violin for half a century and just can’t seem to make something people like better. Some people think you can’t get better than a Fender tube amp. It’s sure hard to beat, but Marshall and Vox innovation helped produce different voices. I personally just haven’t found acoustic guitars I like outside of a pre war x braced design, but that’s just me. I’m also not much of a Taylor fan.
I appreciate that they are trying to branch out into more modern alternatives, but I'd rather go Taylor or Yairi or the like in that case. I just picked up a new HD-28 reimagined specifically because the sound in my head was the classic Martin sound, though I know it's not for everyone it inspires me to play more and fit my budget. 4000.00 for that is a definite pass on my end, though I'd love to play one to see if the hype they are putting out is warranted.
Well if in Martin really says "one foot in the past - one foot in the future" that would mean the bal*s are hang right over the present day. Nothing wrong with what they did if they price it correctly. Somehow I have a feeling that anyone willing to spend 4k on an acoustic, will buy one of their (or some other) proven models. I'd love to see you disecting this one. Also a tone/sound comparison with another $ 4k model too.
I said three years ago on a Reddit Sub that hiring Thomas Ripsom was going to be a mistake. People slammed me for it. There are a few things that can be done to compete with Taylor. Keep building high quality guitars. The classic Martins are classic for a reason and are fantastic guitars. Many others and myself included will continue to pay the premium because they sound amazing! However, Martin must make a better quality slightly smaller neck guitar and put them on some non-dreadnaught body shapes. (Ie…. o, oo, ooo, om, and maybe a D) I believe these guitars should also be the non-high gloss finished guitars. This would help lower their price point. The neck material should also be made out of a sustainable wood if possible. They do not need a new type of neck joint, nor bracing, nor any other gimmick. Just make a great guitar with a smaller neck. If the goal is to sell guitars make a guitar that’s affordable and sell it. Make them around $1250. This might mean out sourcing some of the labor. I would keep the body manufacturing in the states.
I appreciate the sanity check. Thank you! Personally, I wanted to love my old maple back & sides guitar, but couldn't. There's something human about the maple tone that I really liked, but something was missing. My experience is limited to only one guitar (an old Taylor, which might explain my issues), but fwiw, that's why I'm more into the walnut center than other players might be. In the vid, you guys kinda diss Martin's decision to pair the two woods, so I thought it would be useful if I added my feeble 2 cents.
One thing I've learned in life is that it's hard to judge a book by its cover. The hard part is keeping how you already feel from skewing your judgment when you play one. Would have been nice if you played one first, then read about the marketing. I hope you buy one and set one up to how you like guitars setup.
The way this typically works, is that you see the marketing first, so that you are aware of the guitar, and then go somewhere to try it. That's the whole point of the marketing. Also not "judging a book by it's cover", typically refers to superficial elements. Here they are commenting on the actual build of the guitar, so not just "the cover" that is being judged.
In addition, (or subtraction), it looks like they skipped the grain filler on the back and sides, and just sprayed a very thin coat of matte finish on the guitar. Probably adds some sonic value, but not much protection over time. Not to mention, they don’t seem to understand how to spray a proper burst. At this price point, I wonder if potential customers will accept that finish quality.
Martin has been pulling a fast one for years, ever since they tried to capitalize on the vintage craze that started in the 90s with their reissues and limited editions. And now with their countless signature series.
Cut open that GPCE-LMNOP!! 😂 Boardroom guitar for sure. It was probably a response to excess stockpiles of maple or a cheap load. I just wonder what they’ll do with the bracing off cuts.
I'm still trying to figure out why acoustic guitars need to be lighter.....All of the acoustics I have been fortunate to hold and play are so light. I can see some bracing changes being done for sonic reasons only, but I also need to not have my guitars self-destruct under tension..... Love to see and hear more.
There's an old idea in guitar building that you need to get the guitar as close to breaking as you can without putting it in danger. The thinner and lighter you can make the top and the bracing, the easier it will be for the top to vibrate. If the wood is too thick or if it has too much bracing it won't vibrate very well and the guitar will sound dead and one dimensional. Not sure if cutting the bracing like this makes any big difference but might as well try it out.
well, I have to say. I've played on dozens of Martin's and I can tell you I've played 2 of the same model back to back. they are not consistent in tone or sound. However, I recently dipped into the $4,000.00 guitar range and bought a Taylor 614ce Builder's Edition and it has maple back and sides. It does lack a little bit of bass. The point I want to make is that this Taylor sounds BEAUTIFUL and I don't regret one second of the purchase. I have to say maple isn't so bad considering for the longest time I was a rosewood/mahogany B & S guy...IMH-non professional O. Martin isn't even on my radar anymore.
I wish you'd cut in half a FS800 yamaha and a great yamaha LS16m. Compare the two guitars and show us the differences that make them very different soundwise. Would it be possible to modify a Fs800 to get a lot of the tone a LS16m has. Or does the wood make that much of a difference. It seems the L series guitars have their neck set differently....there's so much more tension in the strings. They sound fabulous but they are harder to play. I've notice from playing a lot of them that the best sounding ones are much harder to play....even after a set up and fairly low action....about 2.2mm at the 12th fret.
Hmm. If Martin had tried this out as a lower price model, we might have said that what would be a better, more accurate, more all encompassing choice would be something marketed to compete with D-18, D-28, 000-28, OM, etc. Can’t win. As for maple, yeah, who are they trying to kid! And, wait! Three-piece back sounds familiar. Mid to late 60s. oh, yeah. D-35. Torres and others had the whole use-up-all-of-the-wood-pile thing worked out in the 19th century. Torres even used assymetrically sized multi-pieced soundboards! Of course, genius helps. Have fun at NAMM! Can’t wait for your report!
Taylor was doing that channel around the top .. . and like you say, it adds weakness. I have seen used Taylors with a crack following that line. They do help tone when new...
I’ve been fortunate enough to actually play this guitar. It sounds nice. It plays nice. I will let you decide if it’s four grand worth of nice. It’s too rich for my blood.
You guys are spot on. Properly shaved braces shape the tone. Adding mass just so you can put holes in the brace that it's purpose is support seems counter productive. Seems like the cooperate guys haven't ever tone tapped a top let alone smelled the fragrance of a newly quarter sawed piece of wood.
For Martin innovation was the SC13E that was REAL innovatiom,for my ears maple is a very bright sounding wood.Placing a walnut strip down the center of the back is not going to make a large difference to the overall sound,it may do something but not as much as promotion would suggest...........................
"This whole guitar could have been an email" - I laughed for a solid ten minutes straight.
lololol me too!
Somehow it was decided that the only acceptable trajectory for business is constant growth. This guitar is the outcome.
As Dylan sang "He not busy being born is busy dying". Well, there is such thing as a stillbirth
That's lovely lovely capitalism for you 😅
Thank you, thank you, thank you for calling BS on the all the marketing crap they're dishing out. They're piling it high and deep. This looks like a repeat of what Talyor's marketing grease ball weasels did with their V-bracing.
Oh the V-class bracing marketing campaign was HORRIBLE. Taylor sent all their reps to all their top retail stores with give aways and brain washing... They went hard on influencers to say nice things. First week those hit store shelves I was in Fuller's Guitars in Houston, which is one of Taylor's premier dealers here. Tuesday morning, no one in the store. Me and the sales staff. I got to A-B test the 814ce and one of the 900 series, same model, both brand new, just different years. One X-braced, one V-Class braced... V-Class had more consistency up and down the neck, but with compromises to note decay and overall sustain. The X-braced versions just sounded better and I saw the sales clerks face turn red when I pointed this out. He reluctantly agreed with me, but the look said it all. He was confused, like a cult member finally breaking out a spell... Taylor guitars has no legacy like Martin and Gibson.. They bury their promotional artist pages because its full of players like Dave Matthews and Taylor Swift who abandoned their brand long ago for traditional or boutique builds. The only truly great acoustic player playing a Taylor guitar at this point is Leo Kottke and according to Spoon Phillips, Leo Kottke loves his Taylors primarly because the bolt-on neck lets him get a reset "before every show". Maybe someone should send Leo a boutique built with bolt-on! They are a company that must constantly project some new innovation gimmick in order to be relevant, so they over exaggerate in their marketing... As a business owner, I read Bob Taylor's bio and genuinely like the guy for his work ethic and factory automation genius. But one thing became very clear reading it, Bob Taylor and his company are all about making money and even the conservational work they give so much PR to always has roots in reduce overhead and controlling supply chain for Taylor. So much smoke & mirrors. Like the man, hate is company.
Well, no actually. They're speculating that it's just marketing crap. I'm going to go out on a limb here and guess that a company like Martin has far more advanced ways to determine how bracing and wood combinations will affect the sound of a guitar than a tiny boutique guitar builder.
@@tcWildlife1Dam strait
You guys just covered LITERALLY everything I was going to say about this guitar. Could have listened for another day.
Thanks man!
I have, in addition to my Furch Yellow Master’s Choice, three Walden Guitars.
Walden has been using low mass bracing (similar concept) since their 2020 relaunch in their 500 and up series. Walden’s happen to be very nicely built and great sounding guitars at an affordable price point. I chose my first Walden over a Taylor 214 for half the cost.
I think Martin saw what Taylor did with their gimmicky V-Class bracing (terribly thin sounding guitars, I easily chose Furch over Taylor) and decided to have their own bracing angle as a marketing tool. But they are charging serious money.
I think Walden’s design makes more sense than Martins to be honest.
I couldn’t agree more with everything you both said. I’m ambivalent about two of the 3 elements, but the “Sonic channels” will keep repairers in work for decades….
Hi guys. I consider myself an electric player. But since I've bought a Larivee OM9V I've changed my mind on acoustic playing. The difference in feel, in the overtones, in how the dissonances sound...now I'm enlightened. The difference between good acoustic (I had a good Seagull dreadnought) and a GREAT one is immense. I feel like John Mayer and create new songs just following the sound that the instrument suggest me. (I wish I coud sing or write lyrics like JM!!!).
P.S. please, please, DON'T cut a Larrivee in half ;)
I thought you were on to something and thought I was understanding legit tonal aspects of an acoustic - in regards to overtones (for staters) - when it comes to getting beautiful chords to shine until you mentioned JM, the last showman I would consider a picker, a jazzster, a bluesman, or any kind of a guitar virtuoso.
@@whimpypatrol5503 Joscho Stephan, Tommy Emmanuel and so on, and on.
I feel like those braces are a bold move, would be interesting to see how well they do after 10 years of seasonal changes.
Yes Very good Question 😮😮😮
You might end up in holy hell
THEY'D HAVE AGED LIKE THEYRE 20 LOL
Basically they have created trusses. Not a sparking new innovation.
Often you will see big steel beams with round holes cut out of them to reduce weight without compromising strength. It's just engineering in its most basic form.
It's not a bad idea if there is a need for it. It's still just a truss.
Kanilea has been using relieved bracing on their ukuleles since 2017 called Tru-r bracing
Guitar breakdown on this one would be sweeeeeeet. Can't wait for that. You guys are the best, straight up.
I have learned more from you two than any other source. Thank you
Only if you agree with everything they say, which is a stretch.
Cant say I agree with the concept. The real question is does it improve Sound, Strength and Longevity? Strength is in the grain not the pulp. Punching a bunch of holes in it would require the brace to be taller to make up for the sectional loss of the grain. Infact Chris's point of proper heigth bracing and "voiceing" would be much more of an improvement but that would require Martin to roll back the assembly line mentality. Frankly I think your pregame assesment is spot on. Sales gimmic by Exec. staff after strolling through someone elses attemps of innovation and marketing hip to counter Taylors V Brace hip, another not so new idea. Wounder what Gibson will come up with...?
I started using this type of bracing back in 2001 . It's another tool in the box but not really necessary , My bracing is designed to be both light and strong, without the mass of typical Martin's
Lol sure. Ashame Martin doesn't have your brain. Just a bunch of idiots over there. Not like they invented the wheel or anything
I just bought an HD35. Love the sound, love the neck, but heck yeah - plastic binding and plastic bridge pins on a $3,400.00 guitar??!! I loved your final comment on their finally using a wood binding. My $500 Seagull and $1600 Eastman both have wood bindings!
You two remind me that this world is a beautiful place with amazing minds - Please keep doing what you do!
i do enjoy those cut the guitar in half videos
Very interested to see the results of the breakdown. Id agree that the standard models are over built so the skeletonised approach seems unnecessary when they could just brace the guitar with lighter bracing (a step beyond the scalloped bracing)
just watching the Martin Video right now. Interestingly, they're saying using maple led them to reducing the size of the soundhole. I have an old 1960s Arnold Hoyer guitar with maple back and sides (flamed and quilted respectively) and it also has a small soundhole... And ladder bracing for that matter.
I was planning on retiring this guitar, it's had two refrets, there's not much fretboard left. But went guitar shopping and had to get up to £1.5k before I started finding instruments that could complete.
Nothing wrong with maple if you know how to use it.
The bracing reminds me of the design of real-world bridges. The ones built to accommodate movement while withstanding loads and forces. I'm interested to know what a structural engineer would say.
It's a variation of the boring old I Beam from 1849. Take most of the material and move it to the outside of a taller beam. You end up using less material to achieve the same moment of inertia (strength).
Well real world bridges (highway kind) are designed to not vibrate. Guitars need to vibrate.
My Martin GPCPA4R is currently at an Authorized Martin dealer for a back binding repair. I love the guitar but the binding fell off gracefully as I was playing it. The authorized dealer said Martin had glue problem and he was surprised the binding fell off in one piece. I don't know much but that guitar has a satin finish on the sides and backs and that binding had the satin finish stuck to the binding.
I have that model and the same thing happened to mine; it was an easy fix, but have never had a guitar do that before…still love playing.
I have a GCPA4R my binding came loose. I had a Luthier fix and do a re-set. It is my favorite acoustic guitar.
Your considered cynicism fills my heart with warmth and comfort...all has been put to rights in this world
Will they add the holey bracing to the rubber boot back, to fully jump the shark?
As for maple, what's wrong with a Gibson SJ-200 or Taylor 614ce-618ce? There are also walnut backed guitars. The SC-13 was "new" and not so bad. But I like my D-28s VTS (12-fret). We'll see. Thanks
Can't wait to see the breakdown! Btw, what do you guys think of double tops on steel strings guitars ? I know i's not recent innovation but i'm really curious to know what pros think about it
who is even talking about that?
@@planetdigital300 Jacques Chamma
Double tops were used in some French mandolins way back when.
I have never tried one so don't know why they became a fad.
Interesting to look at but foreign concept to me.
What is the need?
@@TGriffiths-ve6nw it's quite common in classical guitar (even in the US), apparently the top is lighter and vibrates more and it makes the guitar much louder and the sound is better from what I found. Very rare on steel string guitars but it does exist
Interesting analysis and some funny commentary! That 3 piece back feels like buying a new car but it only has 12k miles on it!
Yes please! I would love to see that breakdown
It’s called puffing in the sales world, eager to hear the sound results and feedback from the public!
Talked to a Martin employee while visiting the Martin Factory. He told me that they were shutting down to re machine everything because Taylor was kicking their a*s. This was around 2018.
Spot on! Why make a guitar with maple when you haven't got a good word to say about it as a tonewood (never heard it called "harsh" before)? Why weaken the top with "sonic channels" when you can just reinforce it less with smaller bracing, or even bracing with holes in it? And since when did European spruce grow in Martin's backyard (or am I missing something)?
Well, there's nothing innovative here except that this bracing style is being used in a large factory setting, rather than by boutiques and single handers. Martin will have done their homework and be convinced it's worthwhile, and frankly 4k is affordable compared with singlehander competitors if you want that style of bracing. Maple? Yup that's fine; I've got an MC68 and it sounds great. I also have an HD35 (obviously with a 3 piece back) and it's amazing. I'd love to get my hands on one of these, and I love Martin, but from what you describe I'm not convinced its a great leap.
Thank you CM & TC.
Glad you see it the same way as I did as I have been shouted down in a few forums of Martin lovers. There is so much they could have done but as you say invented in the boardroom and somebody had the Honey comb sketch they did in their lunch break and said I have this.any good. Look forward to the full Driftwood treatment
I love Martin guitars and have a couple of more traditional ones. Curious about this, sure, though the sound on UA-cam vids they’ve put out so far seems to lack depth.
Riversong uses skeletized bracing in their more expensive guitars. Guess when they beat out Martin to win the Musical Merchandise Review Dealers' Choice Awards in 2022, Martin executives took note. I would rather see you two do a breakdown of a Riversong guitar with their neck-through design.
Yes I would love to see a break down on this new Martin guitar!
Nice to see your reaction so fast. 🎉
Definitely want to see the breakdown on this.
Also, hope I see you guys at NAMM! I would love to try a Driftwood acoustic if you'll have some demo instruments 😊 I am coming specifically to try boutique acoustics because that's my jam.
Liked and subscribed for the honesty.
Walden Guitars has been doing this for some time now... under the designer that revived Washburn.
great video guys, I would love to see that guitar cut in half (or at least your review even if you have to avoid cutting it to be able to resell it)
Will it stop the D-28's soundboard from lifting at the rear and dipping in front of the bridge?
And will it magically fix their string spacing at the bridge from 54 to 60mm so fingerstyle players can actually utilize a Martin guitar properly?
Not an instrument builder, but as an architectural designer, increasing beam depth increases both load capacity and/or reduces deflection.
The latter aspect seems counterproductive to improving resonance, ie allowing the sound board to move more freely.
Cutting holes in it modifies the beam into a lighter truss-like form, but the stiffness remains virtually the same.
The added variable to this calculation would be beam width and depth, so if it tapers (especially in section) the impact on stiffness and resulting resonance would be very difficult to engineer in such small and variable sections of material.
Bottom line is, to get the best balance of strength and deflection, you are back to hand tuning.
From an engineering point of view, why not carve the cross-section of the brace like an I-beam?
I love this type of thing from Luthier's such as yourselves- like lets cut all the b/s + marketing blurb,an' Really, what's goin' on here! 😮😮😮
I'd love to hear you play it and judge it fairly!! It didn't sound that good on their demo
It sounded and looked like a Taylor GA.
Check out the new Boucher torrified maple guitars. They sound incredible
Bring the Japanese saw to NAMM and do the breakdown at the Martin booth! 😉
If I'm gonna spend $4K on a Martin, it's going to be an already proven model.
It IS a proven model that has been successful for decades most people call it a Taylor 614ce. For what it’s worth, the Taylor is the exact same price.
There’s no way martins new guitar sounds like a Taylor lol😂
There are literally dozens of guitar builders/factories that produce $4k guitars ( OR LESS ) that'll blow ANY new $4k Martin clean out of the water. That's not my opinion, that's the fact of the matter. ME: 62 yr old highly accomplished guitarist/singer/blues harp/stage performer of many years all over east/central Florida........now "retired" from the club/lounge scene. I've been playing guitar alone for 50 yrs. Trust me when I tell ya: We are truly living in the golden age of lutherie right now. There are SO many phenomenal guitar factories, it's mind boggling. And let me tell ya something else: although I do love the GOOD Martins ( yet far too expensive, others are just as good if not better for less money )..........nowadays, Martin & Taylor both are screwing the hell out of people with grossly over-priced guitars that simply don't deliver for the price. By the way, I owned a Martin D-28 30 some years ago. I also owned a 614 Taylor that I bought new in 2005. After owning/playing/gigging with it for several months, I actually liked the sound of my 3 high end Japanese Takamine's better. I had to sell them all unfortunately, during that awful recession of '08 to save our home. But recently, I purchased 2 Hsienmo acoustic guitars only 3 weeks apart. Loved the first one so much, I rushed & bought the 2nd. Now I'm about to buy a 3rd. I'm here say: the world needs to be put on notice: Founder/owner Li Chen and his team of experienced luthiers are currently building the very best guitars in terms of value for your hard earned dollar. They cut NO corners & build even their lower priced models to the highest standards. And they need NO modifications "to make them sound better". My Hsienmo Custom Shop Grand Auditorium with 5A Adirondack spruce top & SOLID Honduran rosewood back & sides will smoke ANY new $4k Martin OR Taylor. And I only paid $2450.00......delivered to my front door with deluxe case. It'll take a Martin or Taylor costing well north of 10 GRAND to compete with it. Believe that. HSIENMO GUITARS. Check out their youtube channel & website. The word is spreading like wildfire. I only discovered them 3 months ago, and I'm having them custom build my 3rd one. That oughta tell ya something.
Taylor has same bracing as this in that model? @@charlesbolton8471
this isn't even a Martin - this is Frankenstein shiny object for marketing - the Martin promo video is like SNL for a luthier - full of BS
As an engineer and musician, those beams are using basic engineering i.e. all the stress is on the outer edges, the webing just keeps the edges apart ( think of an i - beam) the edges need maximum surface area, where all the stress is focused. The problem here is "wood " is an unstable material subject to humidity and shrikage etc. Time will tell I suppose?
What are your thoughts on the SC series from Martin? It seemed to be in the same category of innovation for innovation sake.
Those braces are going to crack. A round hole will withstand vibration and seasonal changes and movement better than a hole with square or sharp corners. They have created weak points with those little "X's" instead of round or elliptical holes as was shown in the Ryan guitar braces. It's the same reason windows in airplanes are round or have rounded corners. Square or acute angles at corners do not take movement well, and they crack when things move or expand. If you say "why do steel trusses on bridges have have sharp angles?"...the answer is those connections are designed for movement and vibration and steel is ductile and can flex and bend quite a bit and return to it's original shape....wood grain is directional and does not have the flexural and shear strength in relation to it's cross section that steel has.
Would love to hear your thoughts after you get to play one at NAMM. Great video.
The best one of the best guitars I played that with Maple was a Taylor. I don’t know why it had such a beautiful sound, and it was on Maple.
And sound, like beauty, is a personal thing. If it sounds right to you and you want it, that's all that matters.
Yep. I’ve got a few takamines all maples that are tonally explosive and beautiful. Maple is a great tonal wood. Drums prove it too. My Taylor wild wood 814 CE also has maple implements built into it. Just a beautiful guitar and the maple binding is just gorgeous. Although not tonal as the main of my Taylor - the beauty of the maple gives it another element of class.
To me it breaks down to me that they have put more volume of bracing in then cut a lot of it back out. Why ? What is the volume left ? Probably the same as it was ? but hey it has a really nice pattern and therefore it MUST be better ? Martin Snake Oil. Just show us slo mo images of guitar top vibration tests !
yes!! our prayers have been answer in the shape of a new driftwood reaction video 🙌🙌
Agreed on every point here. BTW, as John Ressler can tell you, walnut makes amazing guitars. Also, maple guitars can also be amazing. What is happening?!?! Build a 000-s walnut guitar. It'll be great. Build a maple guitar and figure out how to kill the overtones you don't like. It'll be great.
Spot on comment on Kevin Ryan and his bracing concept, that was the very first thing I thought of when I saw this. They also copied him on their titanium bridge pins on the Modern Deluxe series. Great to see them innovate and or attempt to innovate though. From a pricing perspective, I do find it appalling that the high volume builders are charging so much for basic tone woods. There’s never been a better time to buy exceptional, cost effective guitars. For example, Eastman among others are uniformly producing better sounding - on average - guitars for drastically less money. I love martin and Taylor, but costs are getting absurd for basic maple, EIR, Spruce et al guitars.
It answers design questions that were never asked.
I think it’s a good idea to try and improve the status qou. Thing is, Martin didn’t really invent something new, Kevin Ryan gets that Honor..They took a design that was being implemented by other luthiers/small builders and tweaked it enough to calm their own. For 4k I can find small shop or hand built for almost that much, moreso used.
I’ll take some popcorn and a beer to watch this breakdown, Can’t wait.
Martin have been manufacturing some strange guitars recently made out of weird synthetic materials. I used to love the brand but now not so much. The marketing BS put me off this guitar so I'll take a lot of convincing that it's good and worth the asking price.
Martin is reinventing the wheel
no sir - they are putting holes in the spokes and expecting the wheels not to fall apart
Has it occurred to anyone that those braces might split length wise under a load? Right along those holes which should have round openings, but instead have sharp corners to exacerbate the problem.
This whole video is cheeky but in a fun way, and when Chris said this guitar could have been an email? Well that was just about the perfect way to put my thoughts into one sentence about this guitar. So, Martin, your looking a bit bruised and beaten- pull your tshirts down over your chests because you just got a good ol' fashioned and well deserved ribbing!
Let me start off by saying I do love Martin. Such rich history and their contributions to the acoustic guitar, well.... 1833. Enough said. While it would be interesting to watch your jaws hit the floor once you have the Martin GPCELMNOP Inception Maple in your hands, I'm guessing that won't happen. I really want to play one, I'm a sucker for good marketing, but boy did a dude named Andy send you boys in Nazereth a cuppa Kool Aid or what? I truly hope I'm wrong. I'm guessing these guitars are going to sound amazing, but $4K amazing? I sure hope I'm so wrong that I go and buy one. I do dig the specs and nobody looks at the back of the guitar anyway
😆😆🤣😆🤣
Actually, I do want an acoustisonic. It would fill a slot for my performance regimen. Can't afford it. I told my kids, "I don't know what you're complaining about, you just ate yesterday."
Problem is that this is not affordable, so people can’t test this new technology without spending a lot of money. I recently saw a Chinese brand called Hsienmo which has its own factory with luthiers and stuff, and they’ve got a similar bracing on their grand auditorium model which starts at only $1200, which though obviously still expensive, I think is a much more reasonable price for if you want to try out an unusually braced guitar
100% agree. If this was a $1800-$2000 guitar because of all these years innovations, then that would make sense to me. But not $4000
Another plug on HSIENMO GUITARS ... 😂 Waiting for the next one.
Martin could improve their bottom line by firing most of those suits, and appointing a luthier as CEO
Martin put wood binding modern deluxe series guys. They are superb guitars.
Martin has had wood binding on their Moden Deluxe series for nearly 5 years and as ab=n option on custome order instruments
Do you guys have a video sharing your thoughts about the SC series from Martin?
The Mossman DH92…for collaborator at the time David Hallmark in 1992. They hollowed out braces. Seemed to make it louder in a mic. Several builders have since done it, and made various claims. I’ve seen it, played it in the DH92. Maybe works. Not sure of the longevity.
My Hozen acoustic is solid maple B&S Sitka top - voiced like a mandolin. Incredible sound, warm and woody. Suggest you do a study of these Hozen guitars. Please looks them up.
half of their web page isn't working.
Isn’t it funny how hard it is to improve on some of the iconic, winning designs that set the bar. I’m sure some will say, we choose the pre war dreadnought because it’s what we are used to hearing..nah, it’s just magical. I’m up for innovation. The guitar just has to impress me sonically/acoustically. That’s all. Sometimes it’s weird - people have tried to remake the violin for half a century and just can’t seem to make something people like better. Some people think you can’t get better than a Fender tube amp. It’s sure hard to beat, but Marshall and Vox innovation helped produce different voices. I personally just haven’t found acoustic guitars I like outside of a pre war x braced design, but that’s just me. I’m also not much of a Taylor fan.
Excellent comments!
I appreciate that they are trying to branch out into more modern alternatives, but I'd rather go Taylor or Yairi or the like in that case. I just picked up a new HD-28 reimagined specifically because the sound in my head was the classic Martin sound, though I know it's not for everyone it inspires me to play more and fit my budget. 4000.00 for that is a definite pass on my end, though I'd love to play one to see if the hype they are putting out is warranted.
Can't wait for the breakdown
Well if in Martin really says "one foot in the past - one foot in the future" that would mean the bal*s are hang right over the present day.
Nothing wrong with what they did if they price it correctly. Somehow I have a feeling that anyone willing to spend 4k on an acoustic, will buy
one of their (or some other) proven models.
I'd love to see you disecting this one. Also a tone/sound comparison with another $ 4k model too.
I said three years ago on a Reddit Sub that hiring Thomas Ripsom was going to be a mistake. People slammed me for it. There are a few things that can be done to compete with Taylor. Keep building high quality guitars. The classic Martins are classic for a reason and are fantastic guitars. Many others and myself included will continue to pay the premium because they sound amazing!
However, Martin must make a better quality slightly smaller neck guitar and put them on some non-dreadnaught body shapes. (Ie…. o, oo, ooo, om, and maybe a D) I believe these guitars should also be the non-high gloss finished guitars. This would help lower their price point. The neck material should also be made out of a sustainable wood if possible. They do not need a new type of neck joint, nor bracing, nor any other gimmick. Just make a great guitar with a smaller neck. If the goal is to sell guitars make a guitar that’s affordable and sell it. Make them around $1250. This might mean out sourcing some of the labor. I would keep the body manufacturing in the states.
I appreciate the sanity check. Thank you! Personally, I wanted to love my old maple back & sides guitar, but couldn't. There's something human about the maple tone that I really liked, but something was missing. My experience is limited to only one guitar (an old Taylor, which might explain my issues), but fwiw, that's why I'm more into the walnut center than other players might be. In the vid, you guys kinda diss Martin's decision to pair the two woods, so I thought it would be useful if I added my feeble 2 cents.
4K No Way!!! Love my Larrivée
One thing I've learned in life is that it's hard to judge a book by its cover. The hard part is keeping how you already feel from skewing your judgment when you play one. Would have been nice if you played one first, then read about the marketing. I hope you buy one and set one up to how you like guitars setup.
The way this typically works, is that you see the marketing first, so that you are aware of the guitar, and then go somewhere to try it. That's the whole point of the marketing. Also not "judging a book by it's cover", typically refers to superficial elements. Here they are commenting on the actual build of the guitar, so not just "the cover" that is being judged.
Follow up after NAMM and let us know what you think.
This is rather confusing as cross bracing is to stop movement so one would think it would cancel vibrations that you want ?
In addition, (or subtraction), it looks like they skipped the grain filler on the back and sides, and just sprayed a very thin coat of matte finish on the guitar. Probably adds some sonic value, but not much protection over time. Not to mention, they don’t seem to understand how to spray a proper burst. At this price point, I wonder if potential customers will accept that finish quality.
Would love to see the Driftwood Breakdown on this one
Martin has been pulling a fast one for years, ever since they tried to capitalize on the vintage craze that started in the 90s with their reissues and limited editions. And now with their countless signature series.
Making a signature series is pulling a fast one?
@@seanccaPeople generally like to dog Martin. The video creators not excluded.
Cut open that GPCE-LMNOP!! 😂
Boardroom guitar for sure. It was probably a response to excess stockpiles of maple or a cheap load. I just wonder what they’ll do with the bracing off cuts.
Wait, lol, so is wood binding more durable than synthetic binding?
Thank you for your honest review.
+1 for that rundown
I'm still trying to figure out why acoustic guitars need to be lighter.....All of the acoustics I have been fortunate to hold and play are so light. I can see some bracing changes being done for sonic reasons only, but I also need to not have my guitars self-destruct under tension..... Love to see and hear more.
There's an old idea in guitar building that you need to get the guitar as close to breaking as you can without putting it in danger. The thinner and lighter you can make the top and the bracing, the easier it will be for the top to vibrate. If the wood is too thick or if it has too much bracing it won't vibrate very well and the guitar will sound dead and one dimensional. Not sure if cutting the bracing like this makes any big difference but might as well try it out.
well, I have to say. I've played on dozens of Martin's and I can tell you I've played 2 of the same model back to back. they are not consistent in tone or sound. However, I recently dipped into the $4,000.00 guitar range and bought a Taylor 614ce Builder's Edition and it has maple back and sides. It does lack a little bit of bass. The point I want to make is that this Taylor sounds BEAUTIFUL and I don't regret one second of the purchase. I have to say maple isn't so bad considering for the longest time I was a rosewood/mahogany B & S guy...IMH-non professional O. Martin isn't even on my radar anymore.
I wish you'd cut in half a FS800 yamaha and a great yamaha LS16m. Compare the two guitars and show us the differences that make them very different soundwise. Would it be possible to modify a Fs800 to get a lot of the tone a LS16m has. Or does the wood make that much of a difference. It seems the L series guitars have their neck set differently....there's so much more tension in the strings. They sound fabulous but they are harder to play. I've notice from playing a lot of them that the best sounding ones are much harder to play....even after a set up and fairly low action....about 2.2mm at the 12th fret.
Hmm. If Martin had tried this out as a lower price model, we might have said that what would be a better, more accurate, more all encompassing choice would be something marketed to compete with D-18, D-28, 000-28, OM, etc. Can’t win. As for maple, yeah, who are they trying to kid! And, wait! Three-piece back sounds familiar. Mid to late 60s. oh, yeah. D-35. Torres and others had the whole use-up-all-of-the-wood-pile thing worked out in the 19th century. Torres even used assymetrically sized multi-pieced soundboards! Of course, genius helps. Have fun at NAMM! Can’t wait for your report!
Taylor was doing that channel around the top .. . and like you say, it adds weakness. I have seen used Taylors with a crack following that line. They do help tone when new...
I’ve been fortunate enough to actually play this guitar. It sounds nice. It plays nice. I will let you decide if it’s four grand worth of nice. It’s too rich for my blood.
I’d love to see the breakdown
You guys are spot on. Properly shaved braces shape the tone. Adding mass just so you can put holes in the brace that it's purpose is support seems counter productive. Seems like the cooperate guys haven't ever tone tapped a top let alone smelled the fragrance of a newly quarter sawed piece of wood.
Martin forgot more than you or these guys will ever know
For Martin innovation was the SC13E that was REAL innovatiom,for my ears maple is a very bright sounding wood.Placing a walnut strip down the center of the back is not going to make a large difference to the overall sound,it may do something but not as much as promotion would suggest...........................
Can't wait for your review.