General George S. Patton, The Biscari Massacre and The Slapping Incidents
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- Опубліковано 22 лис 2020
- In 1943, General George S. Patton slapped two soldiers, causing international outrage. Yet, another incident during the Sicilian Campaign could have influenced Eisenhower's decision not to put Patton in charge of Allied forces during the invasion of Italy and Normandy. In this video, we're going to see the full history, backed by sources, and discuss whether the Biscari Massacre was the main reason Patton was relieved of command, rather than the slapping incidents.
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📚 BIBLIOGRAPHY / SOURCES 📚
Atkinson, R. "The Day of Battle: The War in Sicily and Italy, 1943-1944." Abacus 2014.
Axelrod, A. “Patton: A Biography.” St Martin's Press LLC, Kindle 2015.
Blumenson, M. “The Patton Papers, 1940-1945.” Da Capo Press 1974.
Borch, F. “War crimes in Sicily: Sergeant West, Captain Compton, and the Murder of Prisoners of War in 1943.” from “The Army Lawyer: Headquarters, Department of the Army.” PDF Pages 5-10, March 2013 from www.loc.gov/rr/frd/Military_L...
D'Este, C. "Patton: A Genius for War." HarperPerennial, 1996.
Weingartner, J. "Americans, Germans, and War Crimes Justice." Praeger 2011.
The Free Library. S.v. War crimes in Sicily: Sergeant West, Captain Compton, and the murder of prisoners of war in 1943.." Retrieved Nov 12 2020 from www.thefreelibrary.com/War+cr...
Full list of all my sources docs.google.com/spreadsheets/...
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ABOUT TIK 📝
History isn’t as boring as some people think, and my goal is to get people talking about it. I also want to dispel the myths and distortions that ruin our perception of the past by asking a simple question - “But is this really the case?”. I have a 2:1 Degree in History and a passion for early 20th Century conflicts (mainly WW2). I’m therefore approaching this like I would an academic essay. Lots of sources, quotes, references and so on. Only the truth will do.
This video is discussing events or concepts that are academic, educational and historical in nature. This video is for informational purposes and was created so we may better understand the past and learn from the mistakes others have made.
Treating prisoners humanely encourages other soldiers to surrender. This is an obvious and well-known tactic in any war. If, however, the soldiers know they will be murdered they will fight much harder.
Yes, exactly!
The Japanese would like to have a word with you.
yeah, and that´s why the Commissar Order was so stupid.
@@leogazebo5290 The Japanese were constantly told that the Americans were monsters. Told that the Americans did not really took prisoners and even if they did it was only to kill them later. On top a toxic rethoric about self sacrifice and draconic punishments for discipline in a violence filled enviroment. Just look at how brutal they were to their POWs. At how they behaved in mainland china Any reasons for them to think the enemy were going to treat them better?
Its complex and this is but the surface. But the point is: They were indocrinated into fanaticism.
And if you don't want your soldiers to surrender, do you make them commit war crimes?
I chuckled when you replaced "bastard" with "tax man."
I think it was better when we replaced "Bastard" with "Willian the Conqueror"... I felt rlly good when I understood the reference
I was just listing not watching and I didn’t understand that bit 😂
This is a little known fact even in Italy: thanks for your work.
I would encourage you to do a video about Patton's treatment of concentration camp inmates. I read somewhere that Patton actually complained about having to treat SS war criminals any worse than freed concentration camp inmates.
Cristiano95ify Indeed
3:22 Some bonus facts: Giannola lived until 2016, when he passed away at the age of 99. He wrote a detailed report in 1947, which nobody wanted to listen to because of political reasons (friendship with USA being the primary one), until 2004, when it was redescovered and later recognised by the Italian Republic.
...as a personal note, probably there weren't any italian snipers, but only the airfield crew, Giannola being an "Aviere Scelto" (which i believe it's the equivalent to Aircraftman for the RAF)
Interesting! Thanks for the extra info
@@TheImperatorKnight Thanks to you for the stunning documentaries!
I know that this makes me a fascist, in today's America, but I want to know his story.
@@jed-henrywitkowski6470 a fascist, why? The poor man was drafted, like most of the Royal Italian Army...
Anyway the reports and the documents are in Italian, it would be quite a long effort to translate them entirely...
@D L There were also instances of Jewish American soldiers that killed captured Germans in North Africa, justifying it by what Germany did to Jews in occupied territories.
Sun Tzu said: 'When you surround an army, leave an outlet free. Do not press a desperate foe too hard'
That's exactly what Bradley thought when he let all those Germans escape through the gap in Northern France, Bradley was having so much fun, he probably thought to extend the war a little bit more, Hitler made the same decision at Dunkirk. Patton was such a party poopper, wanting to destroy the German army right then and there. Too bad Zhukov didn't give Paulus' army the same courtesy at Stalingrad. See, there's the difference, Stalin learned to give real generals free reign, Eisenhauer preferred to give panzy generals like Bradley in charge, it made for good politics.
@@lookchahshway5182 "Stalin learned to give real generals free reign," WRONG
Learned so many synonyms for the b word watching this videos
That was hilarious hearing TIK say that, especially "William the conqueror" and "benefit scroungers", and then when Patton says shell shock is an invention of the Jews that was just too much I had to laugh out loud
My dad was a lowly second lieutenant under Patton (first in North Africa, and then later, as a brevet captain, in Normandy). He professed to hate Patton. He described after action meetings where Patton would ask only one question: how many tanks did I lose? My dad was in the infantry. He would sit in the back boiling over Patton's indifference to casualties among his comrades. When he screwed up his courage and approached Col. Eklund, one of Patton's staff officers, Eklund said Patton believed "infantry, I can replace. tanks are a lot harder." But I think my dad also admired his aggressive approach. He was with Patton when they relieved Bastogne and he thought no other general would have done what Patton did there.
That's a very interesting perspective. My grandpa was in Patton's 3rd Army, 89th Infantry as a Tech Sergeant. He professed to me that he liked Patton. Although he did tell me stories of atrocities that he got in fights with his superiors about after witnessing.
Here's an interesting point of difference - Montgomery was very much the opposite - he KNEW that infantry was harder to replace than tanks, which was why he preferred to lose tanks than infantry (Operation Epson and Operation Goodwood show this clearly). As he said, he preferred to waste metal than lives.......
He would've done well in the Red Army.
Patton mostly cared about Patton. By no means a rare trait.
@@briancoleman971 No it isn't, but compared to a Douglas McArthur, he was a saint
The funny thing about patton's "killer" mentality is that it's actually the opposite, if you take prisoners and offer the enemy an easy way out, they will fight less. If you show them that there's no mercy, they'll fight till the last to save their lives. Patton was using terror tactics here, same terror tactics that caused huge problems for the germans in Russia
Aye, I was about to make the same comment: not only morally wrong, but also counter-productive.
Its more complicated than that. If you take prisoners after they have fought long and hard there is no incentive for them to surrender earlier. It goes back to siege warfare where the message was "surrender before the breach and you can march out with honour, make us assault and we cut the men loose".
Patrons speech is emphasising this, men surrendering early are completely fine in his book.
@@DoddyIshamel " If you take prisoners after they have fought long and hard there is no incentive for them to surrender earlier. " What' The incentive is not getting killed
Siege mentality is just that: surrender and we'll spare you.
Patton was saying: "don't take prisoners so they will end up surrendering faster because they will fear us"...which makes no sense at all. A cornered dog is more dangerous. Also if you "don't take enemies"..how are they gonna surrender?
Yes, the same way that the Japanese ensured that their enemies would rather fight to the death than surrender...
@@freedomordeath89 No, you are just ignoring what I said to suit your narrative. The sieges could last months. Tradition held that if you surrendered before the breach you would be well treated, if you tried to surrendered after the breach you may receive no mercy. Or if there was to be no breach "when the ladders touch the wall".
Patton was all for his men accepting the surrender of enemy soldiers and treating them well, it was only where they chose to fight on that he encouraged no mercy. This is morally wrong but not illogical any way. If you know you are going to lose then knowing the sooner you surrender the safer you are obviously encourages early surrender.
My father is a Captain (retired) and served in the British Army. He told me that an officer must never strike a man, but that if physical discipline was needed then that was the job of a non-commissioned officer i.e. a sergeant or a corporal.
Indeed. I've never heard of anyone above a Sargeant Major doing so, nor needing to.
(in the British Army anyway)
There’s the old saying of British army officers do not run or duck, professional men
~That~ is the classic service fist discipline formula.
@@jimtaylor294 That's why it's called 'Corporal' punishment.
"Slap the devil out of him"
-Bob Ross
ua-cam.com/play/PL764119B4A011D50A.html
It's nice to see you are tackling other subjects besides Stalingrad; I know focusing on one event can drain a person really fast. Hope you are well Tik!
Yes, although the next episode will be out next week ;) hopefully I'll get a day off at some point within the next season to recharge. But I don't want this channel to become the "Stalingrad" channel
@@TheImperatorKnight No argument there! Stalingrad is important, but not the only event in WWII! Been reading, "The Blitzkrieg Legend" by Frieser for an upcoming podcast on France. It's good, maybe a little too nice to Halder and light on political side. I have other sources though.
I'm glad to hear that. I have been very much enjoying your Stalingrad documentary, but your more general q&a videos are also excellent, please keep up the good work and don't hesitate to take time off if you need it to recharge. It's better to have to wait a week or two then it is for the quality to degrade
@Wulf Ah, I see. For some reason, TIK has gone from, say, S1 Ep 3 to S2 Ep 4. That makes it looked like you've missed S2 episodes 1, 2 and 3. But I haven't. What a strange way of doing it, but at least they're in order. Thanks.
Although there is no S1 Ep 2, so he has evidently missed some.
24:00 "yellow William the conqueror"
Oh, well done, sir. Well done.
I'm glad to see someone got that one ;)
Aye. You'd think they'd call him something like "King Bill the B@$¥@&€" here in the UK (especially in certain regions), but apparently only his homeland of Normandy uses the B@$¥@&|) label, whilst he's King Bill the Conk over here.
That was my personal favourite 😁
I remember reading in a 'Strategy and Tactics' magazine back in the 80's that the Germans dealt with battle fatigue in a manner that effectively got soldiers back to the front line, and the American method only made the condition worse. The article stated that Patton was aware of this, and he was mistakenly trying to do the job that was best left to a trained medical professional.
The German method was to take the soldier off the line, give them a bath, a clean uniform, and an extended period of rest, all the while reminding them that they needed to get back to the front and help their comrades in arms once they were up to it. The American method was the opposite, they treated them like victims and cripples and kept them away from the front and this made things worse.
@@chrishoff402 Excellent point.
Soldiers can put up with a lot, as long as they know they've got something better to look forward to.
Soldier: 'Where did these words come from?'
Soldier 2: 'Straight outta Compton'.
Lol. Best one yet!
UA-cam doesn’t like this topic. It’s cool the audience does, so please more. Thanks TIK
"Giannola, with a wrist fractured by a bullet, waits more than two hours before moving in an attempt to get away, but as soon as he raises his head from a distance a rifle shot hits him in the head, making him fall unconscious. [9] Recovering, he crawls on all fours to a tree and seeks assistance from other US soldiers with the red cross on his arm. After receiving first rudimentary care, he is made to understand that an ambulance would soon arrive to help him. Seeing a jeep approaching , he signals to stop. Two soldiers get out who, seeing him without a uniform and wounded, mistake him for an Englishman, but when they see him they don't understand they become suspicious and one with a Garand rifle [4]he asks him if he's Italian, on affirmative he shoots him at close range, piercing him and puncturing a lung , with the bullet coming out of his shoulder" Damn, you never learn this side of history.
Fuck. Poor bastard.
@Firebird do you have a link or anything I can read about this from?
This sounds like bs. He survived getting shot three times?
Prove it
Remember bart, you can send men to their deaths, but for gods sake you cannot slap them for some reason
@@Edax_Royeaux tbh i was just paraphrasing grandpa Simpson.
"You can push them out of a plane, you can march them off a cliff, you can send them to die on a god forsaken rock, but for some reason you just cant slap em, now apologise to that boy"
In war evil things happen. I suppose that's one of the reasons veterans don't want to talk about it.
@@bigmanfoamy4589 In the Wehrmacht, boy soldiers were forbidden to smoke, drink or have anything to do women, there were heavy fines but they could kill or be killed.
The logic of military thinking.
@Nicolai Myshkin Check out the boy soldiers in the Wehrmacht during WW2
My grandfather served under Patton at the Battle of the Bulge. He was one of the only guys in his company that returned home alive
George s Patton stars in
"The slappening"
Directed by Michael Bay. Every slap has a fiery explosion for effect.
Private Charles kuhl starts as the bad guy with dubious service claims only to find plot twist he's good guy. Taking on good guy turned bad guy Patton.
The slappening in cinemas this fall
Total Luke Skywalker Vs darth Vader scenario
@@highwizardzanzar2593 Luke, I am your commander!
Fire at will, father.
As someone who served for many years in the US Army I can tell you that officers are expected not to touch in a negative way a enlisted man.
@Hunter D 1980s-2000s
The ironic thing is I suspect Patton himself of suffering from PTSD at this point and his lashing out was a symptom of that issue and his frustration with his own issues.
no
No
no
Another well investigated, insightful and interesting episode. Thank-you.
My dad fought in WW2 under Patton and had mixed emotions about him. He felt that Patton drove himself and everyone under him very hard, to the breaking point. That fighting under Patton's command meant being pushed hard into very heavy combat with very costly victories. But at the same time he felt Patton would never waist the life of any soldier under him by being too timid or reckless. He felt Patton was the kind of general the allies needed to win the war. He really didn't care about him slapping a few soldiers. Dad thought it was lenient compared to what he could have done.
As for taking prisoners, I believe my Dad fought the way Patton intended. He took prisoners when it was clear they were truly surrendering. But if he had any doubts he kept shooting. In all that time he only shoot one German soldier that, in hind sight, he felt might have truly been surrendering. But it was a split second decision made in the middle of combat. He never shot anyone after taking them prisoner.
It doesn't make sense now, but snippers, in WW2, were considered cold blooded assassins, not soldiers. Because they did not fight fare. They did not fight face to face in a battle killing in the heat of battle. They cold bloodedly picked an unwary target and shoot him without giving him a chance to fight back. That was considered the height of cowardice.
"Yellow-bellied fatherless children"
lmao
I remember this episode in a Sven Hassel book. There were these injured Russian soldiers in a hospital, and a squad of NKVD came in, hauled them all out and shot them for cowardice. Their rationale was that Russian soldiers were supposed to fight to the death, and since those soldiers were only crippled and not dead they were malingerers. One Russian soldier had both legs shot off, when he pointed this out, he was told he still had two arms and could have carried on the attack by crawling forward towards the enemy.
@Pedro Kantor, the Crimson power Fister It's fiction, no one denies it.
I was literally just discussing you with my mother, that you're an independent documentary "channel" (she isn't into UA-cam) as we were discussing socialism and I mentioned your ideas. I usually take a while to get through these, but they are very good. I didn't know I wanted your take on Patton, but usually I learn a lot
What did she say? Let me know if you persuade her to watch one of my videos, I'm curious to know what she thinks
@@TheImperatorKnight At the moment she's working through her accountancy exams, but I asked and she told me she would watch them. She found your points about Marx very accurate (always thought that he had a lot of ideas for a jobless man), and though she's a kind of classical liberal in the 'we should redistribute power and be less greedy' aspect of it, points that I think you and I agree upon (i.e socialism having a heavy body count and always seeming to be a power grab) lead to interesting agreement.
Of all things, I find it quite cathartic waking people up to the fact that Nazi's were socialist, and that we should not just forget or pretend, otherwise we risk it happening again.
I am not really into youtube either.
TIK frankly is the ONLY reason I come here. Maybe a few other channels, but not many.
@@thewayfarer8849 I would probably have some rather interesting discussions with the two of you. I tend to be a liberal conservative myself - I want social programs to help the needy, but am concerned about fiscal responsibility. I also agree with you about Marx, someone who never really worked a day in his life talking about the conditions of the working man. It is doubly ironic that all the working conditions that caused Marx to write is treatise on "scientific economics" (which is neither scientific nor discusses economics sensibly) have almost all been addressed by democratic means, and Marxism had the exact opposite effect to what it was supposed to do.
I would suggest to your mother that the real problem not necessarily distribution of power, but rather the hoarding of wealth by individuals. We need the wealthy as they provide a source of seed money and investment to get enterprises off the ground. Indeed, it is unavoidable, since wealth is an incentive for people to attain, rather like a prize for winning a race. So, it is not a bad thing in and of itself. However, if the money is not invested wisely but rather hoarded or used for self-aggrandizement, it does no good and results in economic stagnation. This is something that has occurred time and again throughout history, and has caused the decline of many civilizations. Unfortunately, history is something that theorists always seem to ignore, the other being human nature (particularly the darker, nastier side).
@@nicholasconder4703 Those are very salient points, which I may bring up if I get into the topic again. I appreciate the time taken to put that down.
This was so good that I didn't even realize I had been watching for 3/4 of an hour. Thanks for the many perspectives, facts and analysis.
Father was in the tent before the slap,down with fever from malaria and losing flesh on his feet,Patton said something about taking care of his feet,Father called him Mildred,my mothers name.
In Marine Corp boot camp we were told (and read) that if you follow an unlawful order - you will be held responsible. The one giving the order will be too. But if you do unlawful things - killing unarmed prisoners - you will be help responsible. It does not matter if you were given the order to or not.
And I firmly believe in that principle! Only in very limited circumstances can you even make a case for shooting unarmed prisoners - say you are behind enemy lines, lack the men to handle the prisoners, and your mission objective would be endangered by trying to. And I still think you should be held responsible then.
It sickens me that no one was ever brought to justice for torture (calling it enhanced interrogation does not make it not torture), and that no one higher up were brought to justice for the disgusting crimes committed at Abu Garade prison. And NO - torture does not get you reliable, actionable intelligence. Ask the Nazis.
That's something a lot of people don't understand about us Marines. We were ordered to follow "lawful" orders. If we believed an order was unlawful we would have opportunity to justify our decision to disobey in court.
We weren't trained to be unthinking killers. We were trained to be good at what we do.
@@tbd-1 the challenge if any is if the judge(or officers in a court martial) handling the case are willing to listen to your side. Worse case scenario is that the judges or officers might be bribed by the immediate superiors and will solely hold the low Ranking soldiers/marines accountable
There was a lot of thought given to what is, and what isn't torture. Generally, if you do it during training, it isn't torture. A lot of non-torture interrogation results is also unreliable.
What is the reason UA-cam doesn't like this type of historical investigation?
Videos on certain subjects (like war crimes) can be taken down randomly without any real reasoning behind it, while others suspiciously remain up.. suggesting that UA-cam's very arbitrary with their Communist Guidelines.. There's also swearing in this video (quotes from Patton) which I've had to change because UA-cam is also against naughty words...
The Far right uses these few examples to say "look the nazis weren't that bad, the US did the same".
So, thanks to them, this is now a tabu.
I think it also has to do with UA-cam over reliance on automated bots that flag and strike videos based on things it hears during the video. A good example is another history youtube channel, World War 2 by the time ghost guys, their videos on the War against Humanity series deal with war crimes and the holocaust during WW2 and are constantly demonetized, flagged as inappropriate for minors and sometimes struck down
@@TheImperatorKnight I always thought UA-cam isn't that fussy about swearwords if you don't use them in the first 2-3 minutes and that after that it's fine. That's what other creators have said but it could've changed. If it's so then it's sad because I believe colorful sayings are the spice of life and sometimes swears really are the best word available.. Such as when you stub your big toe. ;)
The UA-cam censorship is absurd and clearly politically motivated, but on the upside if it were not for those ridiculous policies I wouldn't have had the opportunity to burst out laughing at "Captain f word" and "Captain UA-cam censorship" :-D
The same confusion over 'take no prisoners' as opposed to 'shoot prisoners that you have taken' was one of the main reasons for the famous trial of Breaker Morant in the Boer War.
This is a problem because if an enemy combatant surrenders what are the troops to do?
Tarleton's Quarter in the American Revolution as well
^ Tarleton's fictional, a character made up for the film.
We caught them and we shot them under rule .303!
In WW 1 both sides shot prisoners of war despite what Geneva Conventions said.
"I can't help it, but it makes my blood boil to think of a yellow *tax man* being babied."
TIK being based as always
My great grandpa was a Colonel under Patton and was one of the few men he respected. Probably because he was one of the few who would call him out to his face.
Very well done, TIK! Thank you for your thorough work!
Patton: *slaps soldier*
Eisenhower: Well, that was unprofessional
Press: THIS IS AN OUTRAGE REEEEEEEE
Germans: You merely slap them?
American soldier: *blows condom balloon*
@Blesava Konjina cry me tears
@Blesava Konjina :)
@Blesava Konjina who do you think was a great general on the allied side?
@Blesava Konjina So, kinda a Trump of general?! Lol. He kinda looks like Trump.
@Blesava Konjina Even the most harshly revisionist publications conclude that Patton was merely "above average" in comparison to his German peers. You're just trying to take the next step into hipsterdom.
Even considering the lackluster performances in and around the Lorraine, he was an aggressive general who secured objectives in a timely manner. Yes, most of his speedy advances were against a weakened enemy. So were those of the Germans.
It's worthwhile looking at Patton's and Ike's pre-war friendship to get a better understanding.
Bradley and Eisenhower were Class Mates at West Point.
Another thing to consider, Eisenhower and Patton we're both Calvary officers and When they were both young hot-blooded LT's they threw their futures into this new technology we call tanks. Which the conservative army establishment were not too keen on
@@ThatGuy-mt7hq Eisenhower sacked Patton and gave his job to Bradley!
@@benwilson6145 He did that for professional reasons not because he held a special animosity towards Patton. If Eisenhower hated Patton he would have relegated him to some staff position and put him out of the way for the rest of the War. Not make him third army commander.
George S Patton by all accounts was an eccentric type. This type of personality tends to produce three reactions to themselves. First, They think very highly of them and are pulled in by their personality. Second, people outright hate them. Finally, they think well enough of them though depending on the circumstance they either find their eccentricity either charming or uncouth, this camp however is a minority. I allege that Eisenhower was in this third category.
@@ThatGuy-mt7hq Like your idea, there is a simpler explanation , with Bradley in charge of Patton, Eisenhower had a layer between himself and Patton. Easier life than having to control a maverick. And Eisenhower was a politician.
The main reason was because of his blunders in executing the invasion of Sicily. He was the sort of man who was more determined to act, even recklessly, and for complex amphibious invasions like Sicily (and later Normandy) this was the wrong approach. Patton's leadership led to unnecessarily high losses and his desire to cut across the north of Sicily allowed Montgomery to be delayed, which allowed many Axis troops to escape to the Italian mainland. Patton was a cavalryman, and he did best when the enemy was on the run. His performance noticeably dropped when they weren't.
There are many instances in wartime when decisive action is more important than taking the time to iron out the wrinkles in a plan, but the reverse is also true. Patton's subordinate, Omar Bradley, was much more level-headed and appreciated the need for ironing out the wrinkles in a complex amphibious invasion. Thus, Bradley was chosen to become Patton's superior, and they worked well together even after this role-reversal.
That’s the thing... cavalry are used to exploit broken units, where somebody had already beaten them - the PBI.
And the horses were always said to be the ones with the brains. Apparently this was a problem when the switch to armour happened...
This is a great video! Much better than the firepower one. I can help you with firepower if you'd like to reproduce it as I have access to the actual firearms in question.
Wtf? Oxide why are you here
By the way that collab would be fantastic
A couple things... 1) In the context of his statement, Patton was attempting to instill the killer instinct in his troops, not give a serious order (notice the soldiers involved did not “stick him in the liver”). Patton was known for doing this kind of thing. Seems kind of obvious... notice there were only a few instances like this, while MANY were take prisoner in Sicily. But just goes to show, there are certain things that should not be taken lightly by people in positions of authority.
2). It’s remarkable that allied reporters “protested” the war crimes. I’m not sure the same would happen today, when Assange is languishing in prison for exposing the “Collateral Murder” video. Almost no one in the media is even reporting on what is happening to Assange, much less coming to his defense... these are very dark times we live in.
As a leader, he is responsible for his words and the actions of men who follow his words.
Killer instinct can be accomplished without such reckless and appalling wording. Considering the implications of the words Patton used reveals just how counter-productive (and illegal) the consequences would be and it was the duty of a General to calculate them. My instinct upon hearing them would be to relieve him of command for at least a few days to give him a strong shouting match and possible demotion.
Assange ordered the "collateral murder" video edited in a misleading way. He might have revealed some criminal activity but he seems to have selectively leaked and edited material hence the gradual loss of sympathy for him.
The idea that terror makes the enemy fight you harder, while I would bet it is true personally, isn't necessarily true. The "terror" stance beleives that even if people will fight harder when they do fight, they're less likely to even begin to fight in the first place and will instead flee if able.
It isn't really possible to say if either opinion is correct or not, never mind which is the more effective, because there's no control by which to compare.
@@Lawofimprobability Patton didn't order them to shoot prisoners, and the failure of individual soldiers to distinguish orders from speech rhetoric is a deficiency on their part.
And Assange didn't commit any crime.
@@howlingdin9332 The wording was not clearly distinct from an order and hyperbole is deeply unsuitable for a general officer. He should have been reprimanded harshly for that "mistake". Even if it was "just" poor impulse control on Patton's part, that is unacceptable in a general. It is the job of the officer to make their instructions clear.
@@Lawofimprobability
**The wording was not clearly distinct from an order**
The fact that he was giving it as a publicly available speech clearly distinguishes it from an order, since an actual order would be given to other officers in his immediate vicinity.
**and hyperbole is deeply unsuitable for a general officer.**
Even if they're giving a speech? I suppose he should also have been reprimanded for telling the soldiers to kick the enemy in the arse, since doing so in lieu of using their rifles would get soldiers needlessly killed.
**Even if it was "just" poor impulse control on Patton's part, that is unacceptable in a general.**
And I think that sidelining an effective general because of bad conduct, and indirectly losing more men as a result is unacceptable. We've all got an opinion.
**It is the job of the officer to make their instructions clear.**
Totes agree.
"Do what?! That's a war crime, I'm not going to do that" -Some Korean soldier playing a video game
" Yellow William The Conqueror " Genius
Here's what I think: I hope I'm never forced to make such decisions. Leading men into battle is one of the hardest jobs there is, and there are usually no right answers. It's our duty to avoid such circumstances whenever we can.
Avoiding just war is cowardice.
My grandfather would remark that prior to being idols in ww2, Patton and McArthur were considered villians and vile for their actions against ww1 pensioners during the depression
Patton was definitely impetuous. It should have occurred to him that soldiers would be in the hospital because of illnesses and just not wounds. I spent two weeks in a U.S. Army hospital when my appendix ruptured. While in Vietnam troopers were constantly being sent to the hospital for malaria treatment though would loose a stripe for a couple of months for not taking their malaria pills.
After 911 we generally fought until we were wounded or broke. The break could be physical, mental or spiritual. I wonder if Patton was broken. I had one officer with appendicitis, another feeling guilty for sending men to die. He blamed himself. A SGT was dealing with the trama of hearing his buddies squad wipped out on the radio. A few soldiers were messed up about close quarters killing. I've seen soldiers simply break. I think Patton was wrong.
Always enjoy your videos and the great detail yet haven't thanked you in a while so....THANK YOU!
No one in my family served in WWII, so I don't have any close personal stories of Patton. However, in 1996, I was on a plane ride to Florida and lucky for me, I was seated next to a group of men who were flying back from Vegas. They were part of Patton's battalion that had fought at the Battle of The Bulge. I wish I could remember everything we talked about. As far as I can remember, none of them had anything bad to say about Patton. Also, as a water meter reader, I met a lot of veterans of WWII--a lot of them served under Patton. They called him a son of a -----, but they were proud to have served under him and would do it again in a minute.
I did meet one guy who served under MacArthur and had nothing good to say. And that is the most polite way to print it here.
Everyone who has ever served on active duty will tell you about the two sets of Justice that exist for commissioned and enlisted personnel. Some things never change.
West was directly told to hold the prisoners, he choose to kill them
Compton had a certain level of defense in that he believed he was following orders, though as TiK points out the order was about men not already prisoners
Though both incidents involved the killing of prisoners they are not really the same thing.
ua-cam.com/play/PL764119B4A011D50A.html
Patton told them to take no prisoners.
Your CYA fairy tale sounds like something the Germans would say about Allied POWs and blame it on low ranking guys when it came from the top, like Patton.
The Third Army after D-Day was notorious for taking the fewest numbers of POWs. Do the math.
Great information and analysis! Well done!
Courage isn't just something you can turn on and off like a light switch. It simply comes and goes as it pleases.
Was just re-wathing your Nigel Askey video TIK. Been also reading "Human Action" by Ludwig Von Mises. Fairly interesting so far the book.
Awesome! Human Action isn't a particularly easy read, but it's a good one. I do recommend his "Socialism" too, which just kills it :) And a lot of people have said they've rewatched the Askey video, which is interesting because I didn't think it would really be rewatchable.
@@TheImperatorKnight It isn't easy, I'm only within the 70 pages of it so far. Started some four days ago. And to be honest. Getting a few flashbacks of the Starship Troopers novel. But yeah. You're voice in my head reading the words to be in the book, makes it a lot easier. 🙂👍
@@calumdeighton Read "The Road to Serfdom" when you finish. Written by Friedrich Von Hayek - a colleague of Mises - it is also a stiff read, but well worth it. Even though it was published in 1947, the message is timeless.
@@calumdeighton Might be worth tackling theory and history before human action, as the former focuses and expounds the epistemology far more comprehensively than Human Action, which does so merely as a prelude to discussing economics.
> inb4 the “ackshually it’s not a clip it’s called a magazine” brigade get to this video
Interesting topic and a video! Thank you!
TIK: ...an officer could expect different treatment than an enlisted soldier.
Everyone who has ever been in the military: Thank you Captain Obvious.
When I saw this title, i thought it was a Mark Felton video...TIK is expanding his universe!
I'm curious, why would you not expect me to make videos like this??
@@TheImperatorKnight Patton is Western front...*heavy sarcasm*. I think it was just the title, the way it was worded. I really enjoy your eastern front videos. They are very eye opening.
I really enjoyed your hilarious selection of alternate words for Gen Patton's language. I'm looking forward to when you able to cover him more.
Great work TIK. This is a very interesting topic for journalism analysis and debate.
YOUR VIDEOS ARE AWESOME KEEP UP THE GREAT WORK MAN!!!!!
D'Este's point in his book is important, that the US Medical Corps earlier in 1943 had instructed all field hospitals to separate physically and mentally wounded soldiers, and that when Patton saw this recommendation made into order to all his medical units. Patton didn't want to see mental cases on his many hospital visits. D'Este means that we must take into consideration that part of Patton's rage was directed to the medical staff for not following orders (the first slapping victim mention this ten years later) and that they became insulted and drew the case harder for that reason. Also, I believe that Patton never was in danger of being sent home. The US Army and the Secretary of Defence wanted him there, to take on the German panzers in France. Patton was never meant for Italy, never meant for commanding Army Groups, he was the only capable general the allies had for mechanized warfare on an army level. They gave him the Third Army for this reason and the rest is history.
Fair enough, but fever from Malaria is a Physical ailment.
Wish we still had people like him out there
@Marry Christmas no shit Sherlock I was talking about personality's
@Marry Christmas shut the fuck up that was all political bull shit. To many wussy fuck heads out there now. The man was at war dip shit
@Marry Christmas shut the fuck up already
Outstanding, as are all of your video's. Thank You TIK
Absolutely riveting presentation. 45 minutes passed as 45 seconds. Thank you.
Enjoyed the thoughtful in depth coverage shining new light on well known chapters in history!
Now with the Patton's talk of "Killer Army" in mind, maybe you could produce an episode about why there were so few Japanese POW in Pacific Theatre sometime? It'd be a very mundane subject who saw combat, but could prove revealing to many.
thank you
Oh shut up moron. There were so few prisoners in that area not because of us, but because of the japanese mentality. Seppuku, kamikazi, etc. This is not on the US at all.
Rules: dont slap your troop!
Tik: the rules say no slapping!
My grandpa's stories about rules from ww2: tiks wrong.
Thank you for this vid. I brought this subject matter up and folks just didn’t want to acknowledge it.
your reading of cuss words is awesome, keep up the good work mate
No other title would’ve been appropriate. Brilliant, Tik
I think an army captain should be smart enough to understand the difference between "take no prisoners" and "murder prisoners".
Take no prisoners historically means kill everyone. That was it's original intent and it still is. If you have a group of the enemy surrendering to you and you're not supposed to take any prisoners what are you going to do? Send them back to their lines telling them to wait and try to surrender during the next battle?
Patton was not even saying that. He was talking about soldiers taking a harder line in borderline cases of accepting surrender in the heat of battle. Many soldiers have written about unwritten rules of the battlefield that decrease the chances of your surrender being accepted like being a sniper or being caught with a flamethrower. Putting your hands up at the last second after just killing the friends of the soldiers charging you many not be the best way to survive. Soldiers on the battlefield have to make a judgement call on whether an offer of surrender is a ruse that endangers them or a real surrender. They are almost never second guessed for those calls. It was noticed that Canadian troops in Normandy were not taking many prisoners for the SS units they were fighting but nobody was prosecuted. Patton was talking about a tougher line on borderline cases of accepting surrender in the heat of battle rather than taking no prisoners or murdering prisoners. His troops did take prisoners and murder of prisoners was rare and was prosecuted as in this case.
If you know you can safely surrender to an enemy as long as you don't leave it to borderline cases in the heat of battle, you are more likely to surrender when the tide of the battle turns or when you are outnumbered. You want to discourage then enemy from fighting until they run out of ammo. You want a reputation of being tough but fair. Germans knew to fear Patton but they knew it was safe to surrender to his troops if they followed the unwritten rules on the battlefield. There were hard feelings towards the Canadians in Normandy for not accepting any surrenders from SS troops whether they followed those rules or not. They murdered some Canadian prisoners in revenge. What the Germans did was a clear war crime while what the Canadians did was pushing the limit of a grey area and possibly a war crime but one that is never prosecuted. It was bad policy since it provoked retaliation. As far as I know, Germans did not feel the need to retaliate against Patton's troops who surrendered.
By '43 the US was scrapping the bottom of the barrel for officers. Not so much from losses, but from expansion. Pretty much anyone who could sign his own name and didn't drool to often would make promotion if he were lucky enough to have good NCOs to carry him along and keep him out of trouble.
@@jamestheotherone742 That kinda still applies today. Officers are considered for promotion based off of their yearly Officer Evaluation Report (OER). A large part of this rating applies to how well the unit they're in charge of functions under their leadership. Since the NCOs are the command link between the officers and the enlisted troops, the better the NCOs are the better the officer is. I had a 2Lt straight out of school once. It was all going to be micromanaged his way and we had all sorts of head-butting. I eventually transferred out and several years later we met again when I was transferred into his unit. He was a Cpt by this time and a totally different officer. He learned to pass on orders and let his NCOs do what they get paid to do. We became pretty good friends.
Not too mention the example he had on all his subordinates how many Lt’s , sgt.s, Corporals are under a Captain all who at some point can be in charge and make similar decisions.
Intelligent and thorough analysis. Thanks, well done!
That Patton was suffering from PTSD at the time of the incidents is a compelling argument. The oldest senior General in the USArmy and he had been going non-stop since the Sicily invasion. He was everywhere pushing his forces relentlessly. In N Africa he was never near front line combat but had several times during the Sicily landings been under fire. I don't think it is s stretch to imagine his own mental fatigue was catching up to him and combined with his personal values and prejudices not to mention ignorance of modern (WWII) battle fatigue treatment resulted in him lashing out.
Fatigue or weariness, maybe. PTSD, no - I highly doubt he was taking direct fire or being shelled or assaulted by the Germans himself. He doesn’t get to wear that badge.
Interested in your opinion, TIK, over the Task Force Baum incident, where Patton seemed to risk the lives of hundreds of soldiers to rescue his son-in-law from a German POW camp. There doesn't seem to be any justification for the outrageous adventure, which ended in terrible failure, and again Eisenhower decided to take no official action against the general. This, in retrospect, seems to be a case of misuse of his office for personal goals.
Have you seen Mark Felton's video on that subject?
@@billh230 Just saw it- It is a whitewash of the actual facts of the operation, and seems to blame Baum for its failure. This is not really fair. He also implies that Patton didn't know his son in law was in the camp. This is a lie.
This really does make you wonder if Patton was as good as advertised. Clearly Eisenhower thought so as he was willing to put up with his antics but Bradley was clearly not a fan. I've seen several people these days say he was mediocre at best or even not as aggresive as his reputation suggests.
Not special
There was a reason he wasn't given upper level operation command in d day. He was "special" in both senses of the word. In terms of moderate scale battlefield tactics his win reccord speaks for itself. (one of the highest counts in the world.) But he was on a larger scale a potential liability due to his tendancy to violate directives and go off on his own. So a risky mixed bag. Too valuble to not have but very annoying to have around.
Excellent analysis and insightful storytelling!
In "Those Devils In Baggy Pants", in Sicily a US paratrooper of the night-jumping force was captured by
a mixed group of 8 Italian & German soldiers, the ranking officer an Italian, interrogated the prisoner who replied in fluent Italian.
The officer enraged called him a traitor and executed him with several grenades,
the last one being the pow's own, placed between his legs.
But other paratroopers had landed too nearby and captured the group.
After seen the atrocity, they executed the whole bunch after making them dig their own graves.
War is not nice.
Patton is IMO the most over-rated commander of WW2. A great self publicist (in a similar vein to Guderian) but really only of much use when operating on a flank that wasn't a primary enemy focus. He was a competent cavalry commander, when he'd been given conditions that suited a cavalry action, but nothing more.
Agreed. When comparing Monty to him... urgh, both shameless self promoters, *but* - Monty had at least won a major ground battle at Alamein against a top German opponent, Rommel, AND was a WW1 veteran, and at least tried not to get any more of his men killed than absolutely necessary.
Mind you, how would we compare Patton to the likes of Mark Clark? :(
@@mikereger1186 and add MacArthur into that mix to make the perfect (sic) trio.......
@@sean640307 oh God, the nutcase who wanted to invade China... Despite how it worked out for Japan and Chiang Kai-Shek. Another moron with a god complex.
@@mikereger1186 Mark Clark eh, so I don't know that much about the man but I think he is sold a bit short. Do I think he would have achieved the same advances as Patton in France? Probably not. Mark Clark was an infantry general and he'd been burned hard at Salerno, and that kind of advance needs a relatively "necky" general, and as Patton was suited to that. But would Patton have been able to do what Clark did?
Fighting long hard battles with minimal reasources in tough terrain and not the centre of attention? I think Patton would have gone to pieces if that where the case, and there's a reason he wasn't commanding those armies in Italy between Sicily and Normandy.
So in conclusion: I think both are flawed generals who couldn't have fought the campaigns the other had to fight nearly as succesfully as they where.
Matthew Ridgway was a real hero though, in not one but TWO wars. The man literally saved the Korean War, and no slapping incidents. There was however a shoe-tying incident. During one of the battles, a guy carrying a radio unit had his laces come undone and slipped down the embankment he was trying to climb. In frustration, the young fella hollered out "Would one of you sons of b*tches tie my shoe?" Suddenly a man was at his feet doing it. The fella looked down and found himself face to face with Ridgway. Talk about a servant leader! From what I've read he also jumped into Europe with his men at 49 years old.
I am so interested in the non mainstream events that you and Mark Felton discuss about WW2 on YTube. Also that you are not frightened to cover contraversial subjects.
I think the controversial subjects are the best ones - history lies in the heart of the debate, after all. But I've got to be careful with Corporate UA-cam. That's the only thing holding me back.
@@TheImperatorKnight Why not try another platform like bitchute etc? I believe these sites are gaining traction and the UA-cam lefty overlords might have to amend or abolish some of their stupendously stupid censoring bots.
@@420Tombstone I fell that the problem with bitchute and similar is that people who hear about it are starting to associate it with extremists and conspiracy nut-jobs rather than people just trying to avoid UA-cam's ban-hammer. Maybe he could host the "uncensored" video on his own website and UA-cam gets a friendlier version (with a disclaimer about the edit taking place).
Love the content man. I'm working on migrating off of UA-cam as much as I can, have you considered posting your content as a podcast to services like Spotify or PodcastAddict?
I have a Bitchute channel, although I'm behind with the uploads to it www.bitchute.com/channel/aqCvYwXmjslI/
Sounds good. Keep up the good work, this here is S-tier historical content.
Good video, thanks for it.
Here is the question: Should the great war not clearly have taught/teached the lesson that shell-shock and combat fatigue are a real thing? In Germany there were some Veterans called "Kriegszitterer" wich can be translated to Warshakers or Twitchers. Their nerves were so wrecked from constant shelling and fear of death in World War I, that they had constant spasms in all of their muscles. They were barley able to walk. It was documented at the time, even on film. So the Armies World wide, more than two decades later, should have known about this.
I don't know if this is true but during the Cobra operation, there was opinion between soldiers that Patton is still not taking the prisoners. A few years ago I've read this in the memoirs of one of the Polish soldiers from Polish 1st Armored Divison. He supports this opinion, saying that if you compare all units that were taking part in the operation Patton's third army took a surprisingly low number of POWs. The opinion was so widespread that when the polish unit was passing to the 3rd Army his POWs (I think this was during Falaise Battle) on the American officer question "Why are you bringing them to us?", Polish officer commanding the escorting soldiers answered: "Because we run out of ammunition"
Another great video TIK👍
My father was a surgeon in one of the evac hospitals that Patton frequently visited. He said Patton was always a problem and an unwanted diversion from the heavy workload of the hospital.
Great video as always TIK, highlighting a not so known and intriguing part of the Sicily campaign. Btw will you perhaps also be creating videos in the future on the British Raj? I always found the nation interesting with their participation in ww2 and internal struggles/events there.
I will be covering the starvation of 3 million Indians at some point, but not sure when. I also want to do the Burma Campaign and so on.
@@TheImperatorKnight That is excellent news, TIK! 😀
I'm guessing that will be some time in the distant future, given the amount of time that the Eastern Front & North African campaigns will take to finish.
Yes it may be a while before I finish Stalingrad or the North African Campaigns... I certainly can't cover Burma until after them. But I could do the starvation of 3 million Indians topic before then :)
@@TheImperatorKnight Understandable. In future anticipation of the Burma Campaign coverage, you have gained yourself another patron! (Not that I haven't already been enjoying the E Front & N Africa battlestorms for a long time now for free)😊
@@TheImperatorKnight Really looking forward to a series on the Burma Campaign, theres so little highlighted/known about it despite the importance of it during the conflict. Your take on it will surely be eye opening and create a brilliant picture of things.
I most definitely would say that Patton was just a man of his time. The ideas of a battle fatigue and the shell shock, were relevantly new during his command, like the racial discrimination, the Nazis were not the first nor the last to racially discriminate individuals based on the color of their skin or ethnicity. I would really love to see a video from you on the topic for the Allied war crimes, since the German's war crimes are so well known, a view on the atrocities committed by the other side would be interesting (excluding the USSR-Stalin's atrocities deserve a whole series on its own :D ) .
Battle fatigue / shell shock / whatever was known going back at least to the American Civil War. Whether it went back farther, I suspect so, but I have heard suggestions it was more common when industrialized societies had more urbanites who were not as accustomed to death.
The term "shell shock" goes back to the First World War. There are a number of videos available on UA-cam that describe it. British commanders in that war would routinely shoot soldiers who would not leave their trenches during an attack. Many of these soldiers literally could not move because their nerves were so frayed. It didn't matter to the officers ordering them out to face exploding shells. In WW1 70% of all casualties were due to artillery fire. It's still the most frightening weapon on the battlefield.
You're a liar. There was no racial discrimination whatsoever. Unless your definition of racial discrimination isn't racial discrimination
My grandfather was an enlisted man who fought under Patton in Italy. He told me they lived on Dexadrine and Italian Wine for the first week. Imagine a bunch of 20 something yr. olds in tanks with machine guns and rifles. He wound up having his foot run over by his own tank driver. He walked with a limp the rest of his life. I don't know how to confirm this information. But a steady diet of dexadrine and ETOH would not make for good battle field judgments.
Brilliant documentary again.
Patton's stats:
-10 Division Organization.
+7 Division Breakthrough.
Well done! Fair and detailed summary of events. My father a P51 Recon Pilot said Patton walked into a Forward Com Shack and surprised him, ( dad was 1st Lt.) , a Sgt and Private. Never having met my Dad, Patton knew him on sight and inquired, " How are you Lt. McCotter?" Wow!
Yes he reviewed Intel my Dad collected and sent to Patton, but if Patton was so selfish, how did he know Dad on sight? A guy taking time to visit hospital and also help physically load materials on trucks, stand at a crossroads directing traffic, sounds like a leaders, Leader!
Nice video, I'd never heard of the Biscari massacres. I wonder if that inspired the Lieutenant Speirs scene on D-Day in Band of Brothers, as it sounds similar.
Love the content and I am steadily tearing through your past library. I didn’t know how little I had read on WW2 until I found your channel. Thank you again.
I was just reading about this stuff this morning 🤔 interesting lol
Good to hear! Which sources were you reading?
@@TheImperatorKnight I have Rick Atkinson’s trilogy on the Allies fighting in North Africa, Italy and continental Europe, so it was the second book in his series! The Day of Battle: The War in Sicily and Italy, 1943-1944.
The incidents of allied atrocities were incidental and relatively trivial in comparison to German atrocities (except to the victims of course). Had the allied soldiers known the full atrocities of the Germans against Russian POW's and also the Final Solution the "atrocities" would have been far more regular. Yet some UA-camrs give them great weight and seem to gloss over German atrocities. I think it is partially due to the emotional immaturity of a lot of UA-cam commenters.
Very insightful talk..thank you so much.
TIK, when can we expect next episode of your Stalingrad series? Awesome content overall, I admire your work and thank you!
Compton's defence reminds me a lot of Beaker Morant's defence for similar offences during the Boer war, though he obviously had much more success with it. I can't help but wonder if he would've gotten off if the media were offering more serious scrutiny of the war effort, as they had been during the Boer war.
Very interesting. Thank you so much! But what happened to 'Stalingrad'? Will the Volga be blocked? Best regards from Hamburg
The next season starts next week
Thanks for posting the video! What is the white circle around your pupils (at 1:19 into the video)?
The US 3rd Army's home today is at Fort Carson, in Colorado. It's still considered 'General Patton's Army' by the troops there. (I used to live in Colorado Springs and knew soldiers stationed there). General Patton's Army is a source of pride for them.
I absolutely love your videos. Often sit down with my dinner to watch them, though when I heard you say 'Yellow taxman' and 'benefit scrounger' I lost most of my dinner.
Though just to further add, it is actually disgusting how long it took for 'Shellshock' victims to get the support they needed and deserved. My father was shot pretty badly by a sniper in N. Ireland during the 70's (Serving with the 22nd Cheshire Regiment) and was back in service as soon as he was fit. From what he's told me and how he is today, he's certainly carrying some form of PTSD with him from the incident and it wasn't until earlier this year that he actually started getting support but the fact it's taken close to five decades for that to happen really leaves a sour taste in the mouth.
I'm expecting to get into trouble for those ones 😂
@Jim lastname You really do not know TIK, do you.
No, I'm not "Tory" because I'm not Left-wing.
"If you consider the Tory's to be "to left Wing", then what dose that make you then? A little to the Right of Attila the Hun?"
The Tory Party was the old Left-wing party of the 1800s. I explained this here ua-cam.com/video/nZcIS2_kxsY/v-deo.html
"Don't tell me your a "Libertarian", for Gods sake's NO !!"
I believe in individual freedom, not collective slavery. Call me whatever name you want.
Very interesting, thanks
Thank you TIK for some of the most informative information about the 2nd world war. I would like to think that I would behave like a good soldier should, but all the different variables that go into combat, I really don't know what I would do. I'm a US veteran of the US Navy with limited combat experience. Our ship USS New Jersey BB-62 shelled El Salvador in the 80's. I still remember our 16" main guns pounding the communists insurgents. I always wondered if the big explosions were on their mark. I can't imagine a frontline soldier. Again TIK, please keep sharing your knowledge. PS I also play the guitar. Rock on TIK
Funny how much clearer cut the definition of a war crime was in WW2, whereas we spent the 2000's arguing the definition of torture.
'We do not torture' Barack Obama
*Expands drone program from a very careful intelligence driven method when no other option presented itself to taking out the worst of the worst Taliban / Al Qaida leaders to blowing up thousands of people including American citizens* Also Barack Obama...