Another super informative video. Ethan Moses has been using this method in the homemade camera podcast Facebook group lately, can't wait until I can give it a go. Cheers!
I was playing with this last week and stumbled across something that I hadn't considered. This is a perfect application for old photo paper that has fogged. In this application the fog only works to reduce dMax. I have some old polycontrast rapid II that has about 0.14d of fog. Since the first develop brings out the fog and then it's bleached away the fog only works to reduce dmax of the final develop. I was about to toss out the paper but now I have a lifetime of paper I can use for this process.. I'm using Potassium permanganate as the bleach and it works well. Hypo clear cleans up any staining before the final develop.
@@davidpresnell1734 Click on “…more” at the bottom of the description field. It says: This alternative reversal process was developed by Ricardo Leite in conjunction with Dr. Scott Williams (of caffenol fame), see this PDF: www.filmlabs.org/docs/citric-h... A quick rundown of the process: 1) Expose print paper in-camera (grade 2 RC I rate at 3 stops more than ISO 3) 2) Fully develop in fresh chemistry to completion (~2 minutes) 3) 30s water rinse 4) 30s in citric acid solution (~3 tsp to 500mL water) face down 5) 1:00 in H2O2 (I'm using 35% H2O2, but 12% also works) face down (NOTE: drugstore H2O2 is too weak, you need at least ~12%, can be found at health food stores or beauty supply stores for hair bleaching) 6) Repeat steps 4 & 5 7) 30s water rinse 8) Flashing exposure ~5 seconds under bright white light 9) 2nd development to completion - can be done under white lights 10) Final rinse; no need to fix, should not have any residual silver halide left in emulsion
Joe I have been playing around with this and it works great, thanks to you and Ethan. One thing I found was giving the entire print a quick 20 second bath in some dilute bleach (I used 1:10 ECN2 bleach but I suspect C41 or E6 would also work) the beige tone disappeared from the highlights. Then I did a quick 10 second bath in an archive solution of Ilford selenium toner (1:20) and it took the dark brown shadows to black. I'm getting very good repeatable results.
This is a pretty interesting process that I've never heard of before! I love using the Harmon Direct Positive Paper in my Afghan Box Camera. This is an interesting alternative. Thanks for sharing this.
Joe, your video was fascinating. I have had an interest in darkroom development techniques for years and will review some of your episodes on photography. Thanks for all that you do.
Hey Joe great results, I thought the lack of UV light inside might affect your results (need more exposure), but it didn't at all. And thank you very much for the detailed notes in the description. I have some 50% H202 on the way to my place, I'll see if I need to dilute :) PS Ethan is also great on the Home Made Camera Podcast :)
The H2O2 I have in house is only 3%, and the best I can easily get seems to be 12%. There seems to be some regulation for higher concentrations in my country. Do you think the higher dilution would work as well?
Hey Joe, thanks a lot sharing this process ! I work in the street with a portable darkroom, I test that next week ! What about the pictures unfixed ? How did it turn ?
@@virageatelier1914 The purpose of fixing a print is to remove any silver halides that might remain -- these can turn dark with future exposure to light and ruin the print. Since we've processed out all the silver halides, none are left to worry about. You can choose to fix if you want, but it's not necessary.
Thoughts on this potentially also working with film reversal development? I have only tried a different method thus far, however that includes heating up a bleach solution up to 38°C. Would love to hear your thoughts.
Haven’t tried it on film, but it should work, given the caveat that the bleaching has to be verified by inspection, which could be more cumbersome with a long roll of film. Would be easier to do with individual sheets of film.
I understand that you enjoy using harman direct positive paper compared to making prints via enlarging or contact printing because it requires less processing. What would the benefits of this process be compared to enlarging or contact printing?
I use Harman in the contest of a substitute for paper negatives in-camera. The advantage is eliminating the intermediary steps of processing and contact printing a paper negative. It’s as if you were exposing the final print directly in-camera. The disadvantage is Harman has a slower emulsion than negative papers, and the resulting image, like with tin types, is reversed horizontally.
@@Joe_VanCleave Thanks Joe! I made my first pinhole camera and paper negative yesterday using the info from a few of your videos. I developed with caffenol, and I've found a few references on the internet of fixing with a 300g/l solution of salt water for about 48 hours. I've tried it a couple times with film about a month ago and left the film in my window and they don't seem to have faded yet. Hopefully itll work for the newest negative too. Have you ever tried it?
dektol is diluted 1:1 from stock, h202 is 12% - undiuted from the bottle. Citric acid is from ball brand tomato canning citric acid powder, about half a tbsp per liter
Hey Joe. Thanks for another inspirational video! I recently bought an old 1930s view camera that I want to start to use for a.o. portraits. It's 18x24cm size, but has film holder inserts for 9x12cm as well. I'm having a hard time sourcing paper in the appropriate sizes. You mentioned you cut some paper to size in this video. Could you share how you do that? Complete darkness or under a safelight? I'd be grateful for any pointers.
I'm using regular print paper, so it can be safely handled under a red darkroom safelight. My paper trimmer is directly under the light, so I can read the markings on the trimmer's scale and get exact lengths.
I have a 9x12cm view camera that I've been trying to get working again, too. Very nice instrument, and with this method I may have the last piece to get it going.
Hi Joe, my positive images on Ilford RC Multigrade paper negatives are always too contrasty, skin tone is too dark. Though I shortened the second exposure to 10 seconds, and use water bath for second development, but there is no improvement. So, what else can I do?
If you were making paper negatives, using a yellow filter on the camera would help reduce contrast with daylight exposures. But this process demands plenty of extra exposure in order for the reversal process to work properly; a yellow filter will cut out too much of the UV light. I'd suggest trying some artificial lighting to help fill in the shadows for portraits, therefore reducing contrast. You'll have to do a series of experiments. Perhaps flash would be more effective, since it's more daylight balanced versus tungsten lighting. Or try daylight balanced LED bulbs. Despite all the tricks we try doing to make paper have a good tonal range, sometimes we just need better lighting, a more controlled contrast.
Do you think there’s such a thing as over flashing the paper after citric acid and peroxide? I want to try to do this on location putting the later half of chemicals outside darkroom. Also, recent tests all my prints came out deep yellow stained. Despite new chemicals and through rinsing before second development
The second exposure needs to finish exposing the rest of the silver halides in the paper. You do need sufficient exposure for the first development. We've done the bleaching out doors, it works fine, though in direct sun you'll notice a faint blue/gray positive begin to form just from the auto-development of the emulsion in strong light. For the staining, try sodium sulfite as a rinse bath after bleaching.
Hi, Joe. Love your videos, they're fascinating. I have a question: do you think this reversal process would work on B/W negative film? Thank you so much, I've learned a lot so far!
I have access to sodiumthiosulfate, which i know can be used as a fixer by itself, but the resources i have are from my middleschools chemistry lab, and there, it's in salt form, which i think would ruin film quite badly. I'm going to be developing 8mm, just to be clear here, i don't have the resources to do this, although it is incredibly cool. How would i probably convert the saltform sodiumthiosulfate to a liquid that i can use for development?
As per the detailed notes in the description above, I'm using 35% unstabilized food grade H2O2, found as health food stores for hydrogen peroxide therapy (needs to be refrigerated for long-term storage), but it also works with 12% stabilized peroxide using for hair coloring bleach.
The goal is to over expose enough to get a darker than usual image. I typically develop for 2 minutes, but the developer concentration is stronger than what I’d use for paper negatives.
@@Joe_VanCleave I am getting dark positives, but only bleaching for 4 minutes 12% H2O2. The image doesn't get completly white. Should I leave it more time? Gonna try it again :)
ok the drawers as chem trays are absolutely genius !!!!!! ove that idea thank you
:D
I really admire how you are doing great fotos with a very rural equipment. Very inspiring. Chapeau and best regards, Greg
Another super informative video. Ethan Moses has been using this method in the homemade camera podcast Facebook group lately, can't wait until I can give it a go. Cheers!
I was playing with this last week and stumbled across something that I hadn't considered. This is a perfect application for old photo paper that has fogged. In this application the fog only works to reduce dMax. I have some old polycontrast rapid II that has about 0.14d of fog. Since the first develop brings out the fog and then it's bleached away the fog only works to reduce dmax of the final develop. I was about to toss out the paper but now I have a lifetime of paper I can use for this process.. I'm using Potassium permanganate as the bleach and it works well. Hypo clear cleans up any staining before the final develop.
Thank You again, Joe... I have posted this on the "Experimenting with Paper" F-B page.
Thank you.
@@Joe_VanCleave You are ALWAYS welcome ;-)
What is the formula Joe?? Details are important!! We know you have 4 sets of tongs but we don't know what the formula is!! Details are important Joe!
See the description above for details.
There is no description above! And I still don't know the formula!
@@davidpresnell1734 Click on “…more” at the bottom of the description field. It says:
This alternative reversal process was developed by Ricardo Leite in conjunction with Dr. Scott Williams (of caffenol fame), see this PDF: www.filmlabs.org/docs/citric-h...
A quick rundown of the process:
1) Expose print paper in-camera (grade 2 RC I rate at 3 stops more than ISO 3)
2) Fully develop in fresh chemistry to completion (~2 minutes)
3) 30s water rinse
4) 30s in citric acid solution (~3 tsp to 500mL water) face down
5) 1:00 in H2O2 (I'm using 35% H2O2, but 12% also works) face down
(NOTE: drugstore H2O2 is too weak, you need at least ~12%, can be found at health food stores or beauty supply stores for hair bleaching)
6) Repeat steps 4 & 5
7) 30s water rinse
8) Flashing exposure ~5 seconds under bright white light
9) 2nd development to completion - can be done under white lights
10) Final rinse; no need to fix, should not have any residual silver halide left in emulsion
Joe I have been playing around with this and it works great, thanks to you and Ethan. One thing I found was giving the entire print a quick 20 second bath in some dilute bleach (I used 1:10 ECN2 bleach but I suspect C41 or E6 would also work) the beige tone disappeared from the highlights. Then I did a quick 10 second bath in an archive solution of Ilford selenium toner (1:20) and it took the dark brown shadows to black. I'm getting very good repeatable results.
Interesting. When did you bleach it? After seconde development or anfter H2O2 bleach? :)
This is a pretty interesting process that I've never heard of before! I love using the Harmon Direct Positive Paper in my Afghan Box Camera. This is an interesting alternative. Thanks for sharing this.
joe is the man. that is all
Joe, your video was fascinating. I have had an interest in darkroom development techniques for years and will review some of your episodes on photography. Thanks for all that you do.
Nice video👌
Love this process sir. Thank you.
Hey Joe, great job! I have a question, this paper Multigrade RC or not ?I can't find it in my country.
Hey Joe great results, I thought the lack of UV light inside might affect your results (need more exposure), but it didn't at all. And thank you very much for the detailed notes in the description. I have some 50% H202 on the way to my place, I'll see if I need to dilute :) PS Ethan is also great on the Home Made Camera Podcast :)
The H2O2 I have in house is only 3%, and the best I can easily get seems to be 12%. There seems to be some regulation for higher concentrations in my country. Do you think the higher dilution would work as well?
My bad. I missed the notes in the video description. Giving 12% a go!
Hey Joe, thanks a lot sharing this process ! I work in the street with a portable darkroom, I test that next week !
What about the pictures unfixed ? How did it turn ?
They’re fine because there’s no undeveloped halides left in the emulsion.
@@Joe_VanCleave okay, so it means that the fixing at the end is useless ?
@@virageatelier1914 The purpose of fixing a print is to remove any silver halides that might remain -- these can turn dark with future exposure to light and ruin the print. Since we've processed out all the silver halides, none are left to worry about. You can choose to fix if you want, but it's not necessary.
Thoughts on this potentially also working with film reversal development? I have only tried a different method thus far, however that includes heating up a bleach solution up to 38°C. Would love to hear your thoughts.
Haven’t tried it on film, but it should work, given the caveat that the bleaching has to be verified by inspection, which could be more cumbersome with a long roll of film. Would be easier to do with individual sheets of film.
Hi. Do you some experience with same method and 35mm reversal B&W film?
I understand that you enjoy using harman direct positive paper compared to making prints via enlarging or contact printing because it requires less processing. What would the benefits of this process be compared to enlarging or contact printing?
I use Harman in the contest of a substitute for paper negatives in-camera. The advantage is eliminating the intermediary steps of processing and contact printing a paper negative. It’s as if you were exposing the final print directly in-camera. The disadvantage is Harman has a slower emulsion than negative papers, and the resulting image, like with tin types, is reversed horizontally.
@@Joe_VanCleave Thanks Joe! I made my first pinhole camera and paper negative yesterday using the info from a few of your videos. I developed with caffenol, and I've found a few references on the internet of fixing with a 300g/l solution of salt water for about 48 hours. I've tried it a couple times with film about a month ago and left the film in my window and they don't seem to have faded yet. Hopefully itll work for the newest negative too. Have you ever tried it?
@@BonsaiBrandy Congrats! I have not used alternatives to fixer, perhaps because I’m too impatient!
Great video Joe. What is the dilution of your developer, peroxide and citric acid. Thanks. I like to try this.
dektol is diluted 1:1 from stock, h202 is 12% - undiuted from the bottle. Citric acid is from ball brand tomato canning citric acid powder, about half a tbsp per liter
If you use Ilford Multigrade paper, could you use the Multigrade filters in front of the lens to for example lessen the contrast of a contrasty scene?
Yes you could but the speed of the paper gets slower when you filter the light.
Why do you expose to light only 5 seconds? Shouldn´t it be at least one minute?
Hi Joe, so what happened to the second shot not fixed. 1 year later does it keeps ok?
Yes, it's fine. If there are no remaining undeveloped silver halides, it shouldn't fade.
Can you successfully sepia tone these? After final development?
I’m certain you can, since the final image is the same metallic silver as a darkroom print that’s been fixed.
Hey Joe. Thanks for another inspirational video! I recently bought an old 1930s view camera that I want to start to use for a.o. portraits. It's 18x24cm size, but has film holder inserts for 9x12cm as well. I'm having a hard time sourcing paper in the appropriate sizes. You mentioned you cut some paper to size in this video. Could you share how you do that? Complete darkness or under a safelight? I'd be grateful for any pointers.
I'm using regular print paper, so it can be safely handled under a red darkroom safelight. My paper trimmer is directly under the light, so I can read the markings on the trimmer's scale and get exact lengths.
@@Joe_VanCleave Thanks Joe! I'm going to order some supplies and start my trials a.s.a.p.. :-)
I have a 9x12cm view camera that I've been trying to get working again, too. Very nice instrument, and with this method I may have the last piece to get it going.
Hi Joe, my positive images on Ilford RC Multigrade paper negatives are always too contrasty, skin tone is too dark. Though I shortened the second exposure to 10 seconds, and use water bath for second development, but there is no improvement. So, what else can I do?
If you were making paper negatives, using a yellow filter on the camera would help reduce contrast with daylight exposures. But this process demands plenty of extra exposure in order for the reversal process to work properly; a yellow filter will cut out too much of the UV light.
I'd suggest trying some artificial lighting to help fill in the shadows for portraits, therefore reducing contrast. You'll have to do a series of experiments. Perhaps flash would be more effective, since it's more daylight balanced versus tungsten lighting. Or try daylight balanced LED bulbs.
Despite all the tricks we try doing to make paper have a good tonal range, sometimes we just need better lighting, a more controlled contrast.
Joe Van Cleave Very cool answer.
Do you think there’s such a thing as over flashing the paper after citric acid and peroxide? I want to try to do this on location putting the later half of chemicals outside darkroom. Also, recent tests all my prints came out deep yellow stained. Despite new chemicals and through rinsing before second development
The second exposure needs to finish exposing the rest of the silver halides in the paper. You do need sufficient exposure for the first development. We've done the bleaching out doors, it works fine, though in direct sun you'll notice a faint blue/gray positive begin to form just from the auto-development of the emulsion in strong light. For the staining, try sodium sulfite as a rinse bath after bleaching.
@@Joe_VanCleave thank you, I’ll give that a try
Hi, Joe. Love your videos, they're fascinating.
I have a question: do you think this reversal process would work on B/W negative film?
Thank you so much, I've learned a lot so far!
www.ilfordphoto.com/reversal-processing/
Illford uses potasium permanganate, which is safe as well, but you could try with peroxide
@@jcameraworks thanks, i'll give it a try!
I have access to sodiumthiosulfate, which i know can be used as a fixer by itself, but the resources i have are from my middleschools chemistry lab, and there, it's in salt form, which i think would ruin film quite badly. I'm going to be developing 8mm, just to be clear here, i don't have the resources to do this, although it is incredibly cool. How would i probably convert the saltform sodiumthiosulfate to a liquid that i can use for development?
It’s water-soluble, you should be able to dissolve it in distilled water.
@@Joe_VanCleave I see. Should i boil it (or in any way heat it) or would i be able to just stir it firmly?
What is the dilution for the Hydrogen Peroxide please?
As per the detailed notes in the description above, I'm using 35% unstabilized food grade H2O2, found as health food stores for hydrogen peroxide therapy (needs to be refrigerated for long-term storage), but it also works with 12% stabilized peroxide using for hair coloring bleach.
super star v40 crystal clear hydrogen peroxide bleach with stabilizer. its 12% and we use it un-diluted
Do you respect 2-3 mnutes in 1st developing times or do you wait until you get a very dark image? I mean a darker image than usual? :)
The goal is to over expose enough to get a darker than usual image. I typically develop for 2 minutes, but the developer concentration is stronger than what I’d use for paper negatives.
@@Joe_VanCleave I am getting dark positives, but only bleaching for 4 minutes 12% H2O2. The image doesn't get completly white. Should I leave it more time? Gonna try it again :)
@@tcdp9804 having the same issues very faint images and barely any whites
@@briansegarra9312 I have succesfully achieved reversal both color an d black and white. www.flickr.com/photos/127134155@N06/
👌🏻👏🏻🙏🏻✌🏻
Nice video as always could this process be done with d-76 and film ? Would be great to try with Arista film as it's cheap
I think it can, though I haven't tried it.
@@Joe_VanCleave thanks I maybe will gave it a try as h202 and citric acid are cheap and have plenty of Arista 100 edu in 4x5 and d-76