I feel you are not giving Squig Hoppers the proper consideration. Did you account for getting to vocally go "BOING" as you count out how many hoppers bounce over enemy units?
On a serious point about them though, it can be 80 attacks crit mortal with 40w 5+ ward, and then you bring 10 back. Even unbuffed in jawz of mork they're doing 21 dam vs a 4+, that's like a reinforced slickblade seekers. They look very playable.
I appreciate you were strapped for time but for the people who listen on the go, it’s really nice when you read out or explain what the abilities are. Much better than “he has a good ability”. I know yous usually do it, just wanted to mention. Still love the show x
Sensei Vince! I really like that you speak about rules and meta game and not just painting. Rly appreciated about you! 👍🏻🤗 BTW Destruction is my favourite GA too!! 😊😊
@@jamieseddon944 no salt with sensei Vince!! He said true things. Initially reading the warscrolls I was excited about Megaboss + Brute + yadayadayada buffs.. But then I tried my self some list and I couldn’t make everything work precisely at the same time, and I was burning many points in the obvious glass cannon combo. I don’t have those many Ardboyz, just 20 but it’s a start, and I rly wanna try that list, plus I love Zoggrok. I guess that atm GW just wanna push the new models, I’m fine with that for now, I have lots of model to paint still. P.s.: sensei Vince! Help me paint more Ardboyz. 🥺🥺 Some Black Orc tutorial would be cool? 😉
Good show. I would gently and respectfully push back on some of the Ogor stuff. The whole viewpoint is warped because of the points efficiency to wounds on Gluttons. Ironguts are stronger than at first look, especially in an 8 block from what I have seen. Also, there were a few lists that did well over the weekend that were a mixed arms list. The Tyrant while not good in combat, can be beneficial to give out another source of control, in case of miscasts and unbinds as well. He helps lower drops, and prevents auxiliaries by letting you take all ogor on them. and is a decent touched by the everwinter target. So now, you're looking at an 180 point priest that hands out OC for no cost, and is generating prayers to power your other stuff, or do damage in a pinch. Anywho, those are just my bad takes 🤣
As a gitz player, I actually think the spider riders are a fantastic piece at 110pts. They move 10” and have control 2 so they are perfect at little cav to go to battle tactics and snag objectives. No anything that will lift models but definitely has a lot of play
In regards to the question of if you can have both Crit mortals and crit 2 hits work, the core rules state you have to choose one when you crit (20.0 weapon abilities)
My Skaven V Kruleboyz just ended somehow in a Skaven victory after some wild tactics-nabbing, but that was the craziest, most difficult game of my life, and it was only 36-34. What a terrifying army KB is.
I have a question about bonuses to hit when contesting objectives you don't control. What makes this a bad ability? Considering control is only checked at the beginning of the game and the end of a turn, wouldn't this be a good way to move up and take a decently defended objective away from your opponent while also killing more of their army?
Is there a good flow chart for the new AoS yet? The one you made or showed us for 3.0 was fantastic and a lot of help. Was pondering making one unless there is one out there already.
Not sure it redeems them but you didn't mention the high control values on the spiderfang units. Riders are 2, warparty is 10, even the shaman on foot is 5 which is cool!
Does Great Gutlord for Mawtribes work with the FLoSH's companion mount? I've heard arguments on either side. If it doesn't, I think it's pretty worthless. Overall, I hope Ogres get a total model revamp here soon with some new units, because once again I think they're riding on the coattails of a couple good warscrolls.
For the Squig Herd, is not 'in combat' within combat range, so 3", meaning a lot more will be in combat than Vince thought, ad you will keep them all touching each other.
Man I’m getting the popcorn ready for next week and the death review. From my games I’ve played, the games I’ve seen in person, and the battle reports I’ve seen, all of the death armies are top tier with the exclusion of maybe FEC. Also I know the stats/results are far too variable right now but the stats are also showing SBGL and NH are just playing a different game than the rest of us.
Is furious temper really that bad? its like +6 attacks and if you use it in your turn there isn't much of a downside since you should delete whatever you're fighting at that point. I think monstrously tough is probably more useful, but I don't think furious temper is terrible.
I've been playing Ogres since 2019 and I found the Ogre faction pack pretty disappointing, in particular the impact hits being so limp. And it really encourages spam since there's so few tricks---just find the most efficient unit (Gluttons) and walk onto the objectives. As much as I love my Gluttons, I want more variety in my lists.
I like brute ragerz a lot in theory. haven't tried out ironjawz yet this edition, but run & charge lets them redeploy and counter charge, plus they strike first when they charge, which makes them pretty good as a counter-charging piece since they'll strike first in your opponents turn. Maybe comboing them with kragnos and the subfaction for +1 attacks when you charge 8+ and you have a useful tool for denying enemy tactics.
Thanks for the episode. Made me excited to play my Kaiju pokemon themed SoB army :P Very sad about IJ tho, it will probly make me paint my S2D army first :/ Ideas I had to fix them: - mighty destroyer is full move but cant enter combat. - bring back smashing and bashing - change +1 Atk on waagh to +1 Hit and make it table - give all monster heroes a waagh buff
2:00 I have 6 piggies and also wondered if their point was to be in front to absorb cavalry so brutes can countercharge? They will probably get buffed when their book eventually comes out if they release a character on a piggy who can buff the unit but I hate needing characters to make a unit worthwhile.
Imo 6 piggies is what’s needed in the GHB. They deploy on the flanks and are used to score tactics. Either your opponents Cavalry engage with them on the flanks and it’s more or less an even fight, or they don’t and you keep scoring tactics. Best case scenario is they dedicate a 300+ points unit to chasing them down, wasting precious time. I generally deploy like this (A)(B)(C)(D)(C)(B)(A) Where A are MSU Gore-gruntas, B are fast damage dealers (Big Pig or Ragerz), C are Brutes and D is the central brick of Ardboyz backing Weirdnob
Always nice to watch those shows. I'm not sure the about the "conversations" happening around having two crit weapon ability, it's stated black on white in the RB 20.0 that if you have multiple of those you must pick one.
Are extra dice a modifier? Thinking of Kragnos and the 3D6 charge for the IJZ subfaction. Does it call it out in the rules specifically now? Last edition they changed their minds on rulings a few times in FAQ’s
Seems like after all these years and even with a system overhaul, GW cannot get the damage output vs points costs right when it comes to monsters... As for Sons, I am meaning to try: Beastsmasher, Krakeneater, Warstomper, Mancrusher Mob, single Mancrusher Only way to fit an extra baby in is to skip Brodd (which I don't own... yet) and Gatebreaker. I would prefer to run Gatebreaker instead of Beastsmasher, but sadly, the fomer costs 10 points too much.
@@VinceVenturella @VinceVenturella @VinceVenturella I think that are correct in only getting to pick each one once. I'm also wondering why you discount the Beast Smasher over Warstomper. The Warstomper only gets damage 2 on the main weapon per hit vs damage 5 and unless the Warstomper fights a unit of 50 infantry the damage will not equal out on a maximum or even be that significantly better.
I've only had 1 game so far with my kruleboyz and it feels like the army I wanted all along. Mirebrute is still my boy and even stuck the emerald life swarm behind him as he stomped straight into some jazzails, the sniper, clanrats and the bell. Beastkillaz were just baller and the light finga won me the game.
@Kinhussar I totally agree, the points of both said could be more 140-80. I'd pay that for them. I'd like gobsprakk just made a bit better to match his cost rather than be made cheaper. Tom and Vince may have convinced me to get a boss on vulcha though! 🤣
So, I have deeply appreciated you and loved your content for a long time. But, I have to say, when you trash factions as bad, and simply say, "no, bad, skip" across the majority of faction offerings, listening to you feels like getting kicked in the stomach. This is especially true at the beginning of a new edition where everyone wants to get hyped. Most people haven't even played a single game, but you seem already deeply jaded and hang-dog about the majority of the options out there. When you go negative, it might cause people to not enjoy their armies, their miniatures they bought and painstakingly painted, and, indeed, cast a shadow on their play experiences, or discourage play at all. Because, brother, when you go negative you go NEGATIVE. When I listen, I sometimes wonder if you actually enjoy the game you're playing. Indeed, if you're hoping to encourage existing players to paint and play, or new players to begin, crapping all over factions/units might prove highly discouraging to them. I listen to your stuff while prepping/painting minis, and I have frequently turned off negative episodes because it drains my energy to do the work. ("Kragnos is decent in your Ironjawz army, because everything else in your army is bad." Which, by the way, you don't even think it true.) I was THRILLED to see a Destruction episode, because I wanted to get hyped for the new rules. But have found this episode a slog to get through. You might not think you're being negative, but when you say, "no, bad, skip" about all but a smattering of units, it feels bad, man. Again, I'm loyal, and deeply appreciative of all the work you do, ESPECIALLY in the realm of painting. But, I wanted to lift up the negativity, because I'm not sure you realize just how negative you get.
Not interesting is not interesting though. My man has made like 15 hours of content which goes through every single faction and warscroll in the game AND requires up to 6 hours of a co hosts time per episode….come on. There isn’t time for a 20 minute deep analysis for each and every scroll. I’m certain Vince will do a deep dive for each faction once their individual books come out. But for now, this is a codex edition, and he’s trying to highlight every single faction from a highlight, codex level. Some warscrolls and even some factions…are not as interesting. So they get skipped. It’s a game-some factions will be on top, and others on bottom. That’s how games work. Most channels aren’t even going through EVERY faction…
I think this a fair comment and generally echo it on the whole. Worth remembering too that a lot of new people will be coming to AoS for 4th and seeking out content like this; generally the tone is a bit 40k-ish, and I reckon a lot of people are coming to AoS from 40k precisely because they are tired of the tone.
Played kruleboyz in a 1 day event on the weekend and they felt really strong. Wins vs Khorne and Stormcast, loss vs nurgle. I think light finga is the way to go, even though I didn't realize you could use it for a reroll of the dirty trick at the time. Not a fan of the sludgeraker as a unit. He's good, but you're mostly bringing him just for the +1 damage buff, and I failed it 3 turns in a row vs the nurgle player, as well as dropping a ton of dirty tricks on low rolls that game. Love the way the army plays now though, even if luck is a big factor in some of your important abilities. I often found myself saving the tricks for a 2+/3+ fights last in my opponents turn because of how crippling that could be, even if it meant giving up crits on 5+. Killbow is fantastic though, chunked ionus for 12 damage in one shooting phase, and it stuck around chunking krondys for a few turns as well, it basically won me that game after he deleted my 20 gutrippaz and sludgeraker with an alpha strike of 12 annhihilators.
I had this edition marked to actually start playing some games having started picking up (far too many) models since getting back in during Covid and finally freeing up time following renovating our house and having a baby. but listening to this on my old favourite O&Gs I'm a bit underwhelmed.
Gore gruntas as have become poor gruntas. I’ve always put them in the same league as blood knights and potentially varanguard (though they feel more like a unit of heroes rather than elite cav). Now blood knights (with neffy) and hexwraiths are these guys worst enemy (ethereal rule and cav).
Why does a unit like frost sabres even exist. Having some of these things on the side of the board doing basically nothing by themselves and then you just get some points because they're in the list, you would never actually top down scratch design any other game like that as an abstract.
Out of curiosity are you guys on desktops? Every stream I see people commenting about audio etc and I’m never hearing what they are talking about on the UA-cam app on my phone.
@@michaelthebarbarian5527 I listen through the app. It’s not much of a problem with earbuds, although it hurts sometimes 😆. In the car it can be rough. Vince’s sound is much lower and if I turn the volume up then Tom’s hurts
I've been having very good results so far. It kinda feels like someone is big mad that cavalry spam is not the best Ironjawz build for a 4th edition in a row.
@@xavierwt They are not bad at all. Here in germany our n1 AoS players thinks really highly of the new Ironjawz. In his opinion they are the second strongest army in the game right now. Brutes are incredible.
@@DonCurrywurst Hello from Québec my German friend! I'm a big fan of Currywurst and the late night snacks I had in Berlin a decade an a half ago remain a fond memory of mine. I understand why people are displeased at the shift in play style for Ironjawz, but I feel like this episode showcases a double standard. The hosts don't like the new rules, therefore the results that are under 40% WR mean that they are right in thinking that they are bad. On the other hand, the hosts like the new rules for Kruleboyz, and in their case the even worse win rate is excused by the fact that players have not yet changed their armies to adapt. See what I mean? I'm in no position to rate IJ in comparison of how strong armies are. I know for instance that I though Slaanesh would be bottom tier and they very much are not. I also thought FEC would be top tier... then again it appears I was wrong and they're middling. What I can tell you though is that if I don't build into "an Ironjawz list" to run across the field and beat down, and I build into "an AoS GHB 24-25" list, complete with hammers, anvils, flanking units and casters to make good use of the spell, prayer and manifestation lore, I have found myself with an army I like playing and that has won me my first 4.0 games.
They are definitely no where near the second strongest, they just don't have the juice. I am 20+ games in, and have done multiple with IJ, they are struggling. I've talked to TO's watching them at tourneys and they are struggling. Brutes are okay, but they have the classic delivery problem and against Khorne, Nighthaunt, Kruleboyz or similar, they are dead in the water. I have played those match ups, it's not pretty. Now, I am not apocolyptic, the reality is, the skill ceiling on this edition is so high, if you are a good player, you can beat a worse player pretty easily, even with a worse army, so IJ can play well when piloted well, even against strong armies, but one of those armies in the hands of a good player is going to be arough match up.
Ogres just feel like they have no concept. High control score? Yeah sure, but you are made of paper and hit like a truck. So either you kill the enemy or he kills you. The games that I played, the control score game of Ogres rarely mattered. If you have a high save and have the staying power, sure, that concept woudlve made sense. But gluttons (our best unit) have the same defensive capabilities of 20 FEC Ghouls.
With all the hours you have put in the last few weeks you deserve a week off. Not like i would believe you would ever take one of course. The iron jaws is pretty disappointing. I do wish the berserker units were more worth taking. From all the previews so far my armies were hit from meh to bad. Stormcast, mortal Maggotkin (maybe best of the group), All squig gitz, and iron jaws. At least next week my very first army Nighthaunt seem to be rocking it. Pity i'm considering selling them off as i haven't touched them in years. I don't play competitive at all so playing the underpowered armies are not a for sure death sentence, but i have to admit my desire to do AOS is rather low right now. I just started playing Conquest and that is a nice change going back to rank and flank. i've also recently started some new 40k armies. Really i would love to get into something Naval (sea or space). Maybe i'm just in a funk which can happen from time to time. Still if i can get some hobbying done i can at least work on my rather immense back lock of primed minis.
Haha want to clip out the Ironjaws review and send to GW 😂 Seriously bad rules writing on Ironjaws. Who in their right mind wrote em and felt; “ah… another great day of work finished. When I compare em to other battletombes it feels like a realy fun game”
Jesus christ Tom please move your mic or something, your smacking that thing every 10 mins and deafening everyone. Was looking forward to this episode but you completely ruined the show man.
I haven’t paid attention, but it looks like Tom’s using AirPods. Assuming Tom is putting his hand up to his ears, maybe it’s only one side (right handed, right side?). If so, the answer might be using just one AirPod on his off-hand side
Honestly could not watch this one through because of the mic bopping wrecking my ears. Love the work you guys do, but until Tom gets a new set up I will have to skip any shows he is on.
Tbf the win-rates are skewed by being so early right now with lopsided stats. Like Bonesplitterz have the highest Destruction win-rate and it’s because 3 guys played them total and won their games. 😂
This is almost certainly an issue of time + small sample size. It is unlikely the best players are trying to play KB right now, and the people who are trying to play them have a tough learning curve because what they do is not really the same as what they used to do nor what the rest of Destruction do.
@just_gut Yeah, KB got hit with both properly heavier points(compared to before when they were cheap to balance out their bad stats) which ruined lists & former strategies And many Destruction battleplans benefit from fast troops where-as they lack any. They need time to adjust. Plus I suspect their future battletome will give them a big unit boost like NightHaunt got previously.(all kinds of speedy swamp monsters, heavier infantry and mercs they can get)
Their faction rules are really good, and the mortal damage they can deal can be game changing, but in general their profiles are nothing to write home about, especially in the "survivivng after redeploying" part. I think that after they get a second wave with some elite/specialized units (NOT HEROES) they might be a menace. Even without more units I think they are a Very High Skill Floor, and people believing they were an "insta win army" bought them and used in tournaments and ate shit.
I feel you are not giving Squig Hoppers the proper consideration. Did you account for getting to vocally go "BOING" as you count out how many hoppers bounce over enemy units?
On a serious point about them though, it can be 80 attacks crit mortal with 40w 5+ ward, and then you bring 10 back. Even unbuffed in jawz of mork they're doing 21 dam vs a 4+, that's like a reinforced slickblade seekers. They look very playable.
Lulz
I appreciate you were strapped for time but for the people who listen on the go, it’s really nice when you read out or explain what the abilities are. Much better than “he has a good ability”. I know yous usually do it, just wanted to mention. Still love the show x
Very good note!
Thanks Vince and Tom. I appreciative of your analysis and look forward to it each week.
Our pleasure!
I'm going to paraphrase Heywhoa, but I'm not picking Ironjawz to play a beast of chaos reject cowman as a sunk cost bandaid solution to sub-par rules.
I hit the like button and now I'm painting 12 rockguts
Sensei Vince! I really like that you speak about rules and meta game and not just painting. Rly appreciated about you! 👍🏻🤗 BTW Destruction is my favourite GA too!! 😊😊
My pleasure!
I would definitely take what he’s saying with a pinch of salt lol because when they went over ironjawz it was terrible from the onset
@@jamieseddon944 no salt with sensei Vince!! He said true things. Initially reading the warscrolls I was excited about Megaboss + Brute + yadayadayada buffs..
But then I tried my self some list and I couldn’t make everything work precisely at the same time, and I was burning many points in the obvious glass cannon combo. I don’t have those many Ardboyz, just 20 but it’s a start, and I rly wanna try that list, plus I love Zoggrok.
I guess that atm GW just wanna push the new models, I’m fine with that for now, I have lots of model to paint still.
P.s.: sensei Vince! Help me paint more Ardboyz. 🥺🥺 Some Black Orc tutorial would be cool? 😉
@@Val4394 it’s not actually true it’s an opinion lol
Good show. I would gently and respectfully push back on some of the Ogor stuff. The whole viewpoint is warped because of the points efficiency to wounds on Gluttons. Ironguts are stronger than at first look, especially in an 8 block from what I have seen. Also, there were a few lists that did well over the weekend that were a mixed arms list. The Tyrant while not good in combat, can be beneficial to give out another source of control, in case of miscasts and unbinds as well. He helps lower drops, and prevents auxiliaries by letting you take all ogor on them. and is a decent touched by the everwinter target. So now, you're looking at an 180 point priest that hands out OC for no cost, and is generating prayers to power your other stuff, or do damage in a pinch.
Anywho, those are just my bad takes 🤣
As a gitz player, I actually think the spider riders are a fantastic piece at 110pts. They move 10” and have control 2 so they are perfect at little cav to go to battle tactics and snag objectives. No anything that will lift models but definitely has a lot of play
In regards to the question of if you can have both Crit mortals and crit 2 hits work, the core rules state you have to choose one when you crit (20.0 weapon abilities)
My Skaven V Kruleboyz just ended somehow in a Skaven victory after some wild tactics-nabbing, but that was the craziest, most difficult game of my life, and it was only 36-34. What a terrifying army KB is.
I have a question about bonuses to hit when contesting objectives you don't control. What makes this a bad ability? Considering control is only checked at the beginning of the game and the end of a turn, wouldn't this be a good way to move up and take a decently defended objective away from your opponent while also killing more of their army?
Just a rstriction that won't always fire where you need it.
Having a fiddly and tricksy gotcha game between Khorne and Ironjawz does not feel like something which is working as the Gods intended.
@@BlastastiC At least the Ironjaws can with Gordrak punch really hard once in that match up.
Is there a good flow chart for the new AoS yet? The one you made or showed us for 3.0 was fantastic and a lot of help. Was pondering making one unless there is one out there already.
I'll have to look into that.
Can I please ask what we’re Tom’s go to hero’s in his Kruleboyz list?
I think he can respond, but the foot caster, the banner guy, the bonus hero and the generic Derek.
A+. You are the goat, sir. Safe travels.
Not sure it redeems them but you didn't mention the high control values on the spiderfang units. Riders are 2, warparty is 10, even the shaman on foot is 5 which is cool!
Does Great Gutlord for Mawtribes work with the FLoSH's companion mount? I've heard arguments on either side. If it doesn't, I think it's pretty worthless. Overall, I hope Ogres get a total model revamp here soon with some new units, because once again I think they're riding on the coattails of a couple good warscrolls.
Tom as great. Very positive for the most part
For the Squig Herd, is not 'in combat' within combat range, so 3", meaning a lot more will be in combat than Vince thought, ad you will keep them all touching each other.
Man I’m getting the popcorn ready for next week and the death review. From my games I’ve played, the games I’ve seen in person, and the battle reports I’ve seen, all of the death armies are top tier with the exclusion of maybe FEC. Also I know the stats/results are far too variable right now but the stats are also showing SBGL and NH are just playing a different game than the rest of us.
Is furious temper really that bad? its like +6 attacks and if you use it in your turn there isn't much of a downside since you should delete whatever you're fighting at that point.
I think monstrously tough is probably more useful, but I don't think furious temper is terrible.
I've been playing Ogres since 2019 and I found the Ogre faction pack pretty disappointing, in particular the impact hits being so limp. And it really encourages spam since there's so few tricks---just find the most efficient unit (Gluttons) and walk onto the objectives. As much as I love my Gluttons, I want more variety in my lists.
I like brute ragerz a lot in theory. haven't tried out ironjawz yet this edition, but run & charge lets them redeploy and counter charge, plus they strike first when they charge, which makes them pretty good as a counter-charging piece since they'll strike first in your opponents turn. Maybe comboing them with kragnos and the subfaction for +1 attacks when you charge 8+ and you have a useful tool for denying enemy tactics.
Thanks for the episode. Made me excited to play my Kaiju pokemon themed SoB army :P
Very sad about IJ tho, it will probly make me paint my S2D army first :/
Ideas I had to fix them:
- mighty destroyer is full move but cant enter combat.
- bring back smashing and bashing
- change +1 Atk on waagh to +1 Hit and make it table
- give all monster heroes a waagh buff
2:00 I have 6 piggies and also wondered if their point was to be in front to absorb cavalry so brutes can countercharge? They will probably get buffed when their book eventually comes out if they release a character on a piggy who can buff the unit but I hate needing characters to make a unit worthwhile.
Imo 6 piggies is what’s needed in the GHB. They deploy on the flanks and are used to score tactics. Either your opponents Cavalry engage with them on the flanks and it’s more or less an even fight, or they don’t and you keep scoring tactics. Best case scenario is they dedicate a 300+ points unit to chasing them down, wasting precious time.
I generally deploy like this
(A)(B)(C)(D)(C)(B)(A)
Where A are MSU Gore-gruntas, B are fast damage dealers (Big Pig or Ragerz), C are Brutes and D is the central brick of Ardboyz backing Weirdnob
I love those big complete videos guys, thank you !
Always nice to watch those shows. I'm not sure the about the "conversations" happening around having two crit weapon ability, it's stated black on white in the RB 20.0 that if you have multiple of those you must pick one.
You are correct, I just forgot that on the spot. :)
Are extra dice a modifier? Thinking of Kragnos and the 3D6 charge for the IJZ subfaction. Does it call it out in the rules specifically now? Last edition they changed their minds on rulings a few times in FAQ’s
As of right now, no.
Seems like after all these years and even with a system overhaul, GW cannot get the damage output vs points costs right when it comes to monsters...
As for Sons, I am meaning to try: Beastsmasher, Krakeneater, Warstomper, Mancrusher Mob, single Mancrusher
Only way to fit an extra baby in is to skip Brodd (which I don't own... yet) and Gatebreaker. I would prefer to run Gatebreaker instead of Beastsmasher, but sadly, the fomer costs 10 points too much.
Can Brod on a 10+ choose the same effect on his prayer. That would give you 2x D3 heal.
I believe he has to choose different effects based on the core rule.
@@VinceVenturella @VinceVenturella @VinceVenturella I think that are correct in only getting to pick each one once. I'm also wondering why you discount the Beast Smasher over Warstomper. The Warstomper only gets damage 2 on the main weapon per hit vs damage 5 and unless the Warstomper fights a unit of 50 infantry the damage will not equal out on a maximum or even be that significantly better.
I've only had 1 game so far with my kruleboyz and it feels like the army I wanted all along. Mirebrute is still my boy and even stuck the emerald life swarm behind him as he stomped straight into some jazzails, the sniper, clanrats and the bell. Beastkillaz were just baller and the light finga won me the game.
Internal Balance is horrible though, compare hobgrots and monstakillaz which are almost the same points.
Pretty frustrating with such a small roster.
@Kinhussar I totally agree, the points of both said could be more 140-80. I'd pay that for them. I'd like gobsprakk just made a bit better to match his cost rather than be made cheaper. Tom and Vince may have convinced me to get a boss on vulcha though! 🤣
So, I have deeply appreciated you and loved your content for a long time. But, I have to say, when you trash factions as bad, and simply say, "no, bad, skip" across the majority of faction offerings, listening to you feels like getting kicked in the stomach. This is especially true at the beginning of a new edition where everyone wants to get hyped. Most people haven't even played a single game, but you seem already deeply jaded and hang-dog about the majority of the options out there. When you go negative, it might cause people to not enjoy their armies, their miniatures they bought and painstakingly painted, and, indeed, cast a shadow on their play experiences, or discourage play at all. Because, brother, when you go negative you go NEGATIVE. When I listen, I sometimes wonder if you actually enjoy the game you're playing. Indeed, if you're hoping to encourage existing players to paint and play, or new players to begin, crapping all over factions/units might prove highly discouraging to them. I listen to your stuff while prepping/painting minis, and I have frequently turned off negative episodes because it drains my energy to do the work. ("Kragnos is decent in your Ironjawz army, because everything else in your army is bad." Which, by the way, you don't even think it true.) I was THRILLED to see a Destruction episode, because I wanted to get hyped for the new rules. But have found this episode a slog to get through. You might not think you're being negative, but when you say, "no, bad, skip" about all but a smattering of units, it feels bad, man. Again, I'm loyal, and deeply appreciative of all the work you do, ESPECIALLY in the realm of painting. But, I wanted to lift up the negativity, because I'm not sure you realize just how negative you get.
Totally fair, part of that is just blunt honesty in a compressed time frame, but I get it.
Not interesting is not interesting though. My man has made like 15 hours of content which goes through every single faction and warscroll in the game AND requires up to 6 hours of a co hosts time per episode….come on. There isn’t time for a 20 minute deep analysis for each and every scroll.
I’m certain Vince will do a deep dive for each faction once their individual books come out. But for now, this is a codex edition, and he’s trying to highlight every single faction from a highlight, codex level.
Some warscrolls and even some factions…are not as interesting. So they get skipped. It’s a game-some factions will be on top, and others on bottom. That’s how games work. Most channels aren’t even going through EVERY faction…
I think this a fair comment and generally echo it on the whole. Worth remembering too that a lot of new people will be coming to AoS for 4th and seeking out content like this; generally the tone is a bit 40k-ish, and I reckon a lot of people are coming to AoS from 40k precisely because they are tired of the tone.
Hi, is this your first war game and edition change?
Great video, but I wish you'd covered Bonesplitterz too 💚
I maintain Virullent Procession is the best skaven battle formation by a wiiiiide margin
Played kruleboyz in a 1 day event on the weekend and they felt really strong. Wins vs Khorne and Stormcast, loss vs nurgle.
I think light finga is the way to go, even though I didn't realize you could use it for a reroll of the dirty trick at the time.
Not a fan of the sludgeraker as a unit. He's good, but you're mostly bringing him just for the +1 damage buff, and I failed it 3 turns in a row vs the nurgle player, as well as dropping a ton of dirty tricks on low rolls that game.
Love the way the army plays now though, even if luck is a big factor in some of your important abilities. I often found myself saving the tricks for a 2+/3+ fights last in my opponents turn because of how crippling that could be, even if it meant giving up crits on 5+.
Killbow is fantastic though, chunked ionus for 12 damage in one shooting phase, and it stuck around chunking krondys for a few turns as well, it basically won me that game after he deleted my 20 gutrippaz and sludgeraker with an alpha strike of 12 annhihilators.
I had this edition marked to actually start playing some games having started picking up (far too many) models since getting back in during Covid and finally freeing up time following renovating our house and having a baby. but listening to this on my old favourite O&Gs I'm a bit underwhelmed.
Gore gruntas as have become poor gruntas. I’ve always put them in the same league as blood knights and potentially varanguard (though they feel more like a unit of heroes rather than elite cav). Now blood knights (with neffy) and hexwraiths are these guys worst enemy (ethereal rule and cav).
Why does a unit like frost sabres even exist. Having some of these things on the side of the board doing basically nothing by themselves and then you just get some points because they're in the list, you would never actually top down scratch design any other game like that as an abstract.
Dang that chip bag is loud. Bowl?
Ardboyz are only shield bashing units that charge them that turn
The turn after ur not shield bashing unless another unit charges the ardboyz
If it’s Thursday and I have some time off I’m slowly rolling out of bed and hitting like.
2:15:46 this just made me feel so much better for getting my ass kicked by the boyz.
Running Squigs (dmg) + grots (control) was literally my take as well. Sadly the Mangler is bad now. It's the funniest model.
SO bummed about Spiderfang, it's even worse than I expected. Will I still play them and probably get more? Yes, for some stupid reason
Only 3 hours?! Definitely could have squeezed death in too
Is it just me or does anyone else find that vince's live streams have the volume an annoying amount lower then his normal videos?
Same here
Out of curiosity are you guys on desktops? Every stream I see people commenting about audio etc and I’m never hearing what they are talking about on the UA-cam app on my phone.
@@michaelthebarbarian5527 I listen through the app. It’s not much of a problem with earbuds, although it hurts sometimes 😆. In the car it can be rough. Vince’s sound is much lower and if I turn the volume up then Tom’s hurts
Desktop is bad. Phone app is tolerable.
I will look into it.
Sad to hear that ironjawz are crap now, I was excited to play them
I've been having very good results so far. It kinda feels like someone is big mad that cavalry spam is not the best Ironjawz build for a 4th edition in a row.
@@xavierwt They are not bad at all. Here in germany our n1 AoS players thinks really highly of the new Ironjawz. In his opinion they are the second strongest army in the game right now. Brutes are incredible.
@@DonCurrywurst
Hello from Québec my German friend! I'm a big fan of Currywurst and the late night snacks I had in Berlin a decade an a half ago remain a fond memory of mine.
I understand why people are displeased at the shift in play style for Ironjawz, but I feel like this episode showcases a double standard.
The hosts don't like the new rules, therefore the results that are under 40% WR mean that they are right in thinking that they are bad. On the other hand, the hosts like the new rules for Kruleboyz, and in their case the even worse win rate is excused by the fact that players have not yet changed their armies to adapt.
See what I mean?
I'm in no position to rate IJ in comparison of how strong armies are. I know for instance that I though Slaanesh would be bottom tier and they very much are not. I also thought FEC would be top tier... then again it appears I was wrong and they're middling.
What I can tell you though is that if I don't build into "an Ironjawz list" to run across the field and beat down, and I build into "an AoS GHB 24-25" list, complete with hammers, anvils, flanking units and casters to make good use of the spell, prayer and manifestation lore, I have found myself with an army I like playing and that has won me my first 4.0 games.
They are definitely no where near the second strongest, they just don't have the juice. I am 20+ games in, and have done multiple with IJ, they are struggling. I've talked to TO's watching them at tourneys and they are struggling. Brutes are okay, but they have the classic delivery problem and against Khorne, Nighthaunt, Kruleboyz or similar, they are dead in the water. I have played those match ups, it's not pretty.
Now, I am not apocolyptic, the reality is, the skill ceiling on this edition is so high, if you are a good player, you can beat a worse player pretty easily, even with a worse army, so IJ can play well when piloted well, even against strong armies, but one of those armies in the hands of a good player is going to be arough match up.
Can confirm. Manglers do not mangle very well🙁
Ogres just feel like they have no concept. High control score? Yeah sure, but you are made of paper and hit like a truck. So either you kill the enemy or he kills you. The games that I played, the control score game of Ogres rarely mattered.
If you have a high save and have the staying power, sure, that concept woudlve made sense. But gluttons (our best unit) have the same defensive capabilities of 20 FEC Ghouls.
With all the hours you have put in the last few weeks you deserve a week off. Not like i would believe you would ever take one of course. The iron jaws is pretty disappointing. I do wish the berserker units were more worth taking. From all the previews so far my armies were hit from meh to bad. Stormcast, mortal Maggotkin (maybe best of the group), All squig gitz, and iron jaws. At least next week my very first army Nighthaunt seem to be rocking it. Pity i'm considering selling them off as i haven't touched them in years. I don't play competitive at all so playing the underpowered armies are not a for sure death sentence, but i have to admit my desire to do AOS is rather low right now.
I just started playing Conquest and that is a nice change going back to rank and flank. i've also recently started some new 40k armies. Really i would love to get into something Naval (sea or space). Maybe i'm just in a funk which can happen from time to time. Still if i can get some hobbying done i can at least work on my rather immense back lock of primed minis.
Haha want to clip out the Ironjaws review and send to GW 😂 Seriously bad rules writing on Ironjaws. Who in their right mind wrote em and felt;
“ah… another great day of work finished. When I compare em to other battletombes it feels like a realy fun game”
Why the hell did they never combine bonesplitterz and spider fang into a single faction
So spiderfang survived. I wonder if that will be the case when we have a proper army book?
Way to make me depressed about IJ :(
Wow super dismissive of ironjawz it looks like u can’t even put abilities together to make some decent synergies
I think Ard Boyz blocks work, but I am dismissive of the current state of the army, it's pretty bad.
Jesus christ Tom please move your mic or something, your smacking that thing every 10 mins and deafening everyone. Was looking forward to this episode but you completely ruined the show man.
I haven’t paid attention, but it looks like Tom’s using AirPods. Assuming Tom is putting his hand up to his ears, maybe it’s only one side (right handed, right side?). If so, the answer might be using just one AirPod on his off-hand side
Honestly could not watch this one through because of the mic bopping wrecking my ears. Love the work you guys do, but until Tom gets a new set up I will have to skip any shows he is on.
Same. I'm choosing which episodes to watch based on how the sound is lately.
Anyone who thinks Gitz stabbaz can’t do damage has never accidentally put their hand down too hard on them 🩸
Kruleboyz have the worst win rate in the game so far bud. Top 5 they are not.
Tbf the win-rates are skewed by being so early right now with lopsided stats. Like Bonesplitterz have the highest Destruction win-rate and it’s because 3 guys played them total and won their games. 😂
This is almost certainly an issue of time + small sample size. It is unlikely the best players are trying to play KB right now, and the people who are trying to play them have a tough learning curve because what they do is not really the same as what they used to do nor what the rest of Destruction do.
@just_gut
Yeah, KB got hit with both properly heavier points(compared to before when they were cheap to balance out their bad stats) which ruined lists & former strategies
And many Destruction battleplans benefit from fast troops where-as they lack any.
They need time to adjust. Plus I suspect their future battletome will give them a big unit boost like NightHaunt got previously.(all kinds of speedy swamp monsters, heavier infantry and mercs they can get)
Their faction rules are really good, and the mortal damage they can deal can be game changing, but in general their profiles are nothing to write home about, especially in the "survivivng after redeploying" part.
I think that after they get a second wave with some elite/specialized units (NOT HEROES) they might be a menace.
Even without more units I think they are a Very High Skill Floor, and people believing they were an "insta win army" bought them and used in tournaments and ate shit.
Making conclusions about the performance of any army based on 1 weekend of results is total folly.