Three False Friends in One Important Verse
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- Опубліковано 4 жов 2024
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This realy gives me pause and inspires me to be more carful with scripture. Thanks for your service.
I'm so glad!
'Imagining the death of the King' was a very serious offence in England, back in the 16th century. The law surely meant 'plotting', but the ambiguity of the word effectively outlawed any speculation concerning the death of the King and the succession.
Citation?
@@markwardonwordsSee John Barrell - Imagining the King’s Death (OUP)
@@stephenrsteele Ooh, nailed it!
And my late father worked on a treason trial in South Africa in the late 1950s where “imagine” or “compass” the death of the Sovereign was the key issue.
@@stormythelowcountrykitty7147 "where “imagine” or “compass” the death of the Sovereign was the key issue."
So they wanted the King to wander around lost? And nobody was allowed to help him find his way?
I'm confused! 😁
Excellent and helpful as always! Thank you for doing this work!
My pleasure!
As someone who reads the KJV daily, and attendans church that preaches from the KJV (its not KJV only, but is probably favorable to the Majority tradition of manuacripts, as am I) these videos have provided so much clarity and enriched my reading of it. As well as dispelling any notions of the KJV only movement that so many are ensnared in. Thank you for these wonderful videos, I gave my Mom a CSB Journaling Bible for Christmas and I cant wait to direct her to your "Why the CSB is the best Bible Translation" video.
So glad to hear this! That's the goal! Clarity of God's message.
I raged way too much in my younger years , I was an out of control boastful heathen.
Praise Jesus for saving me from the raging waters of sin.
Mark, you always manage to bring out one or two principles which are not only relevant to the topic at hand, but applicable in so many other areas of life. Thanks for your work!
I appreciate that!
This was great! One of the most helpful (for me) false friends videos yet!
So glad to hear it!
I agree. A lot of false friends I did not fall for, thanks to my better than average language skills (and English is my second language) as well as thanks to my knowledge of the German Bible. And no, I did not grow up reading the Luther 1545, but rather the Luther 1965. Later I switched to Elberfelder.
"Rage" definitely threw me here, mainly because I hadn't thought of the German in a long time.
"People" was a real surprise, despite the fact that the German "Nationen" or "Völker" are both absolutely clear!
I'm not a regular KJV reader but I absolutely adore Handel's Messiah.
Guesses before watching the full video (I’m at 1:21) are Heathen, Imagine, and Vain
Good guesses!
Wonderful work again as always! This is why all editions of the KJV needs to have the original footnotes
Thanks for your excellent work, Mark. Much appreciated, as always! May the Lord keep you in his strength, peace, and joy, my brother.
Many thanks!
I'm so fascinated listening to you
Your commitment to pressing for effective contemporary translation continues to be appreciated, brother! Keep on keepin' on!
Thanks, will do!
Thank you for sharing this video.
My pleasure!
Always enjoy these.
Many thanks!
I must say I feel like the phrase "it's all the rage" is kind of the last remnant of this sense of rage, or at least related to it. At least, that was my immediate thought as you were talking about that word
Thank you, Mark!
My pleasure!
Psalm 2 is one of my favorite Bible verses and while I am not King James only to me it has more effect for me in the King James
I love the KJV, too. And the Psalms, especially, I love in the KJV.
@@markwardonwordsSame here. Its signature dialect of Early Modern English does a very good job at inflecting the English to distinguish between singular and plural pronouns, much like what the contemporary Spanish Bible does today. It’s inspired me to use that Early Modern English dialect when I write practice translations of scriptural passages, distinguishing between singular and plural like other languages do.
I thoroughly enjoy your videos and get so much out of your teaching and sharing of the who, what, when, where and how and appreciate your encouragement that most of the translations are indeed helpful and trustworthy to read. Thank you, Mark! ☺
Then you are a nerd. I hate to break this to you. ;)
Graciously received! #BibleNerd 🥸
@@Seasonedwithsalt68 Love it! Join the club!
I understood enough about how Hebrew poetry uses parallel statements to have understood the example for FF3 in Psalm 2. But I didn’t realize that word was ambiguous in the KJV in several of the other occurrences you mentioned. Confusing!
And I had no idea anger wasn’t necessarily tied to “rage” in the past. So cool.
It’s really strange to have to point out how dependent we are on others for their expertise, but it’s vital if we’re going to take our full role in God’s ranks alongside each other.
Blessings!
Excellent! Thank you.
You are welcome!
Heathen and imagine I believe. Idk about the third though…
Fascinating! “Rage” is more nuanced than I thought and I would not have guessed “people” but that definitely makes sense. The examples you gave show the complexity.
I would make the case that heathen could be a false friend for most modern English readers/speakers. Without access to the OED I wouldn’t be too sure. I think that most people today use the word “heathen” to describe a non-religious person or someone who flouts Judeo-Christian moral codes rather than Gentile nations. Thanks for this helpful video!
Maybe I need to look again at "heathen."
I agree with you. Im so glad I found your channel. I been struggling with all these bibles out there when I grew up it was KJV. I just came back to study the bible and wow there was the amplified,esv, niv and more. Thank you so much for all your information
Welcome aboard! There are riches to be had in all good English Bible translations-don’t be afraid! I can help you access these riches.
Well said, Mark. With the KJV we, "Don't know what we don't know."
Good stuff, Mark! Please keep it coming. Oh, and Happy New Year.
Happy new year! It's going to keep coming, Lord willing!
In LXX:
Psalm 2:1: εφρύαξαν Translated as “neigh” in ABP
Psalm 2:1 & Proverbs 24:2 εμελέτησαν
Translated as “meditate” in ABP
Proverbs 20:1: υβριστικόν
Translated as “outrageous” in ABP
Psalm 2:1: έθνη
Translated as “nations” in ABP
That ending was soooo smooth.
Ha! Thank you!
Absolutely love what you did there at the end!
From one nerd to another: thank you.
The first bible I purchased after salvation was a KJV which I used for about two years. During that time I would ask preachers that I met which translation they believed to be the most accurate. Since each of them told me that the NASB was that bible I started using it and have not stopped since 1977. Brother Ward, your videos have convinced me to not be a one translation-only person. I have used Logos for many years and in the bible window I would open the NASB, NIV and the ESV. The problem was that I would not refer to the other translations very much. From now on I will. I have truly enjoyed your videos and I thank you for sharing all you vast knowledge with us.
Wonderful! So glad to hear this! May the Lord bless your careful, diligent Bible study!
Coming from a school and church that used only KJV, I feel comfortable with the KJV, but for the last two years have been reading from the NKJV and like it much better, due to the modern English. I see your point about the false friends and what they can cause. Going from the KJV to NKJV, I have dug into the Hebrew and Greek more to make sure I’m understanding what is being said, as we all should. Thanks for the work you do and the video.
Excellent! That’s why I’m here. It’s that simple. Better Bible understanding.
@justinmcinvaille84
I use the NKJV mostly, simply because my wife bought me one when I was coming out of KJVO. But I also look at other translations, and often find the comparison very helpful. I recommend it to you. The ESV and LSB are excellent. HCSB or CSB are also good. Once in a while, I even consult the DRC (a Roman Catholic translation).
The ESV's rendering of the Song of Solomon may be the best I've ever seen. Easy to understand, yet accurate AND poetically beautiful. That ain't easy!
I'm going with "heathen," "rage," and "imagine."
Close!
Well, one of my favorite songs by Rich Mullins is Why Do the Nations Rage so now I don't know what to think... lol
But seriously, I just noticed that the HCSB translated "rage" as rebel. It's interesting that they reverted to "rage" in the updated CSB.
"People" never tripped me up, but "heathen" did. For a long time I understood "heathen" as debauched or referring exclusively to religion, when the KJV translators use it where we use "nation." That tripped me up for a long time in Ps 2.
The HCSB is one of my favorite translations and I looked it up and in that translation they use the word rebel
That's a good one.
Thank you,dear Brother. Your work and mission are so valuable to the Body of Christ. I chose IMAGINE,VAIN,RAGE. Each Psalm is usually small enough that I read 5 translations on YOU BIBLE. I've found that the sound of "peoples" hurts my songwriter/lyricist's ears. When reading aloud, I consistently use "all the people" or "nations". (but that's a purely intuitive choice:glad I'm on the right track). Blessings for you and yours in 2024. YOU ARE MY JOHN MCWHORTER!!!🌹⭐🌞⭐🌹
Wow, thank you! He’s a hero of mine!
The last four minutes express a profound idea; could be a standalone video.
Thank you, Steve.
Hello Mark. Great content! I run into false friends when I am taking scripture and making it a poem. I was doing this with the beatitudes. I came to the word "meek." This is a false friend.
Interesting! How so?
@markwardonwords Quick reply. Lancelot, despite being the finest warrior knight is described as "meek." Moses is called more "meek" than any man on the face of the earth in Numbers 12. Jesus says, "for I am meek" in Mathew 11. Today, we think of meek as someone docile or exceedingly compliant. A more balanced translation for today of this old word must include the understanding that meek refers to someone with power who is self-restrained. The opposite of someone powerless.
@@tedroybal5231 I'd have to see that the English word itself has changed meaning significantly over time to be sure-check the OED!
Whenever I read Psalm 2, I always interpreted “Why do the nations rage” as rebel; I thought of a raging river, or “rage, rage against the dying of the light.” The following verses reinforce that idea. It never would have occurred to me that the nations were angry (other than anger at God causing them to rebel), but now that you point that out, it seems so obvious that that word could be a false friend. It’s almost like a “reverse false friend” where I was so used to a biblical way of wording things, the possibility that a new Bible reader could be tripped up by it never occurred to me. Interesting!
I totally get this. Good comment.
This was my thought also.
@@HebrewGreekKnowledge A further thought: a raging river isn't angry, but raging against the dying of the light has always sounded like anger to me.
Ok, paused for 1st guesses with my guess as to meaning in (): RAGE (in way of becoming obsessed with or preoccupied with), IMAGINE (to think of), and VAIN (a useless or un-purpseful thing?)
Then, I decided to check footnotes of my KJV to test if I'd have been alerted to false friends when reading this on my own. They only marked HEATHEN (nations) and IMAGINE (plot). So, I think I was only partially correct on"imagine." Plus, they must be missing one.
Off to watch the rest of your video...
Ha! I think I got "rage." I just didn't elaborate as eloquently as you. I actually thought of it like "going into a frenzy" but tried to tone that down. 😉 Then "peopleS"; interesting that my Bible pointed out that "heathen" referred to nations, but not that "people" did. Thanks! Enjoyed learning all of this and have already marked my KJV.
BTW, I've been home sick with the 'vid since Wednesday. Not entirely pleasant, but at least I can catch up on these videos! Life goes on. Wish I could have seen/heard Handel's Messiah! I played in college orchestra for that and LOVED hearing the voices right behind me!
"Don't rage, people. Just imagine!" 🤣🤣🤣
Yes! Love it! Get well!
That last line 😂
Yup. Glad others caught it!
I'm going to bottle up all of the “yes but distinguishing between the singular vs plural forms of ‘people’ doesn't matter in the English Bible” objections that this video garners, and republish them in the context of the “thee / ye” debate, and see how that goes over.
RIGHT! An excellent point.
I love that they say that but ignore entirely the the KJV similarly leaves out masculine/feminine gendering in most words.
Anyone who thinks plural vs. singular does not matter.... Well, I don't know what to say. By that I mean, I can't think of anything to say that would not be seen as being very unkind.
The distinction ENTIRELY changes many important passages. To ignore that distinction is to remain in spiritual kindergarten.
@@Packhorse-bh8qn I agree that in the very small number of passages where the plurality isn't obvious from the context, it can be helpful to signal in some way (e.g. a footnote) in vernacular language translations that don’t support that distinction (of which spoken English is not the only language). Thankfully, nobody in this discussion is saying that we should deliberately pass over the distinction where it matters and can't be easily intuited from the text. In hindsight my original comment could've been written more irenically for the eyes of the other side of this KJV Only discussion. Peace!
Excellent comment, @tinybibles.
Hey Mark, I have greatly appreciated your videos for quite a while now!
One word that I would consider to be a false friend would be "blessed." Whenever I hear that word "blessed," I always think of some sort of divinely-given supernatural blessing, but "makarios" from my understanding really just simply means to be "happy." So for instance in the Beatitudes when Jesus is saying "blessed are the poor in Spirit," he isn't saying that the poor in spirit will receive a supernatural blessing from God, but simply that they will be happy.
I'm assuming a big part of why most modern translations maintain the word "blessed" in many instances where "happy" would be more appropriate is because of the influence of the KJV, but I can't say that for certain.
Randy Alcorn in his book, "Happiness" also goes into this word quite a bit and he can explain it far better than I.
When I look to modern dictionaries, I do see that "of or enjoying happiness" is an option given (Mirriam-Webster), but I do not know that I have ever heard a sermon from the Beatitudes even mention "happy" as being an option as a possible understanding.
I would love for you to do a video on the word "blessed" sometime, but I'd love to at least hear your thoughts on it!
Ooh. That really is a good idea! My gut says we're dealing with tradition here. And I'm not merely against tradition; sometimes I think traditions-like "baptism" as a rendering for βαπτίζω-end up "acquiring meaning" through long usage.
0:55 I am guessing that the three false friends are: heathen, imagine, and vain are the false friends.
Well I got one right. Thank you, Mark. Very interesting.
This was a challenging one!
I must admit that in the case of this verse, I've never misunderstood the meaning of these "false friends" or been "tripped up" by them, but I guess others' mileage may vary.
One word that could be called a "false friend," which I don't know if you've covered already in a previous video, but was revealed to me last year, is the word "comfort," particularly in the way in which the Holy Spirit is called the "Comforter," which to modern ears sounds like a nice warm, reassuring blanket, but in its original sense meant "strengthener" or "fortifier." The "comfortable words" of Zechariah 1.13 were not sweet pleasantries, but words that bolstered the angel's confidence. The explanation for Noah's name in Genesis 5.29 was not describing a man who made everyone feel warm and fuzzy, but who built up the people and gave them the strength they needed for the "work and toil" of their hands. There are indeed places where the modern sense of "comfort" is wholly applicable, but there are many verses that make much more sense when read his this obsolete sense of the word. This was brought to my attention while reading the works of Percy Dearmer and his exposition on the inadequacy of the English language to properly convey the meaning behind the word "Paraclete."
Some of my own false friends were ones I never misunderstood. “Rage” is probably one, I think. Most of my false friends, though, I was tripped up by myself as a KJV reader.
“Comfort”-I’ll have to do some more looking into that one. Initially, I’m not so sure that language change is the reason for the difficulty there. It’s just a difficult word to translate in the Greek.
@@markwardonwords I understand, but it's not just Paraclete: I did a breakdown of all the verses in the KJV that use "comfort" or a version of it ("comfortable," "comforter," &c.) spanning the entire OT and NT, and found that in many places, the text supports an obsolete or archaic sense of the word "comfort" that means "strengthen," "bolster," "fortify," or even "discipline," while other verses lend themselves to the modern sense, and others could go either way. The key is the "fort" part of the word "comfort:" the root is the Latin "confortare," with "fort" meaning "strong," as it does in French. This is genuinely a case of language change and I have no doubt in my mind that you'll find an entry in the OED indicating that it was once used in this obsolete fashion. I can send you a list of the verses which read more sensibly with this older interpretation, if you so desire.
@@RhenishHelm Please do so! Toss it right in the chat! Thank you!
@@markwardonwords Here's the text of the Notepad document I saved a few months ago (I do all my writing in Notepad). Please forgive my commentary sprinkled throughout. (Note: UA-cam doesn't like me posting something so long, so I've reduced it to verse references, except for entries where I had my own comments)
Gently reassure v. Strengthen/Bolster/Fortify
Verses that read better with the obsolete interpretation:
Genesis 5.29
And he called his name Noah, saying, This same shall comfort us concerning our work and toil of our hands, because of the ground which the LORD hath cursed.
..
Noah's comforting is a strengthening that helps with the hard toil being done to work the ground for food.
Genesis 18.5
And I will fetch a morsel of bread, and comfort ye your hearts; after that ye shall pass on: for therefore are ye come to your servant. And they said, So do, as thou hast said.
..
Unlike the modern sense of "comfort food," Abraham is offering food to what he perceives as passing strangers, that might strengthen them for their journey.
Genesis 24.67
And Isaac brought her into his mother Sarah's tent, and took Rebekah, and she became his wife; and he loved her: and Isaac was comforted after his mother's death.
..
This is one that makes a lot more sense in its obsolete sense rather than the modern version, which implies that Rebekah's physical intimacy with Isaac coddled him because he was such a mommy's boy. Instead it reads that taking Rebekah as a wife gave Isaac the strength to move on.
Genesis 27.42
Judges 19.5
And it came to pass on the fourth day, when they arose early in the morning, that he rose up to depart: and the damsel's father said unto his son in law, Comfort thine heart with a morsel of bread, and afterward go your way.
..
This is an identical sense to Genesis 18.5 above.
Judges 19.8
And he arose early in the morning on the fifth day to depart: and the damsel's father said, Comfort thine heart, I pray thee. And they tarried until afternoon, and they did eat both of them.
2 Samuel 13.39
And the soul of king David longed to go forth unto Absalom: for he was comforted concerning Amnon, seeing he was dead.
..
This makes much more sense in the obsolete than the modern.
2 Samuel 14.17
2 Samuel 19.7
2 Chronicles 30.22
2 Chronicles 32.6-7
And he set captains of war over the people, and gathered them together to him in the street of the gate of the city, and spake comfortably to them, saying, Be strong and courageous, be not afraid nor dismayed for the king of Assyria, nor for all the multitude that is with him: for there be more with us than with him:
..
"Spake comfortably:" "Be STRONG and COURAGEOUS, be NOT AFRAID..." He is calling them to action. It is not common that a person is comforted, in the modern sense, by being told to buck up and quit thyself like a man.
Job 6.10
Job 9.27
Job 29.25
I chose out their way, and sat chief, and dwelt as a king in the army, as one that comforteth the mourners.
..
Despite the word "mourners" seeming to suggest the reassurance meaning, that interpretation is out of place with the other examples in this verse, which point to the sense of "strengthens."
Psalm 23.4
Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil: for thou art with me; thy rod and thy staff they comfort me.
..
This seems to lean towards the sense of "discipline," which is a way to make a man stronger.
Psalm 71.21
Psalm 86.17
Psalm 119.50
This is my comfort in my affliction: for thy word hath quickened me.
..
Quickened with a fuzzy blanket?
Psalm 119.76
Psalm 119.82
Isaiah 40.1-2
Isaiah 51.3
Isaiah 51.12
Isaiah 52.9
Isaiah 66.13
As one whom his mother comforteth, so will I comfort you; and ye shall be comforted in Jerusalem
..
This sounds as if it should be the modern interpretation, but the context implies that the "comfort" here is not coddling motherly reassurance, but the strength that a mother's milk provides to a growing child.
Jeremiah 8.18
When I would comfort myself against sorrow, my heart is faint in me.
..
This is another example of a deceptive use of the word: one would expect that the comfort in sorrow would be of a pacifying nature, but the verse says "comfort myself against sorrow," the "against" being key: it's about making oneself strong against sorrow. This also makes more sense with the second part: one who is faint would not reject pacifying reassurance, but would have difficulty bolstering himself physically or mentally.
Lamentations 1.16
For these things I weep; mine eye, mine eye runneth down with water, because the comforter that should relieve my soul is far from me: my children are desolate, because the enemy prevailed.
..
Another that seems to read according to the modern usage of the word, but falls on the side of "fortifier" or "strengthener:" the word translated "relieve" literally means "bring back." In that context, the verse would read, "mine eye runneth down with water because the strengthener that should bring back my soul is far from me." To bring back implies revivification or restoration, which plays better with the obsolete form of "comforter."
Ezekiel 5.13
Ezekiel 14.22
Ezekiel 31.16
Ezekiel 32.31
Hosea 2.14
Zechariah 1.13
Zechariah 1.17
John 14.16
John 14.18
John 14.26
John 15.26
John 16.7
Acts 9.31
Acts 16.40
Acts 20.12
Romans 1.12
Romans 15.4
1 Corinthians 14.3
1 Corinthians 14.31
2 Corinthians 1.3-4
2 Corinthians 1.6
2 Corinthians 2.7
2 Corinthians 7.4
2 Corinthians 7.6
2 Corinthians 7.7
And not by his coming only, but by the consolation wherewith he was comforted in you, when he told us your earnest desire, your mourning, your fervent mind toward me; so that I rejoiced the more.
..
This one is more complicated, as the sense here is more along the lines of "inspired." It could possibly be classified as a "both" take, but I think the "fortify" interpretation is closest here.
2 Corinthians 7.13
Colossians 2.2
Colossians 4.8
1 Thessalonians 2.11
As ye know how we exhorted and comforted and charged every one of you, as a father doth his children.
..
This one is so obvious: "reassured" has no place between "exhorted" and "charged," but "fortified" is natural.
1 Thessalonians 3.2
1 Thessalonians 3.7
1 Thessalonians 4.18
1 Thessalonians 5.11
1 Thessalonians 5.14
2 Thessalonians 2.17
Again, another excellent video. Just a few days ago, I found two “false friends” in the GENEVA BIBLE in which the King James Bible actually corrected. And that was a surprise to me! But here are the two. They both are found in Acts 21. The first is in 21:15; “And after those days we “trussed up our fardels,” and went up to Jerusalem.” The second is 21:35; “ And when he came unto the “grieces,” it was so that he was borne of the soldiers, for the violence of the people.” Thanks for another great video Mark!
Ah, cool! I need to read the whole Geneva Bible one of these days…
As a NKJV reader, I never assumed people to be singular as it refers back to the nations (plural) so I took it to mean the people of the nations.
You're not totally far off, but it doesn't mean "the people of the nations." It means "the nations." That's what the Hebrew says, and that's what the KJV translators intended.
@@markwardonwords Well not being a Hebrew reader, I'll defer to your expertise. Thanks.
Great ending 😅
Thank you!
I thought “rage” meant fighting. Now it seems as though it could be translated as “rave”. Thanks. The other friends make sense to me: “Imagine a vain thing”, is like dream up an unfruitful scheme (in my mind). People can be peoples or nations, just as fish can mean either one fish or many different types of fish.
You make good points here for sure. It sounds like KJV from the pulpit should include explanation. I’ve now watched quite a few of your vids and understand your goal is not to personally pry the KJV from my very hands.
I love Handel’s Messiah! When I was younger, I sang the tenor solo- Thou Shalt Break Them with orchestra. I feel righteous proud of that privilege.
Right! Not prying! And I can't tell you how much it means to me that you achieved that new understanding by listening to quite a few of my videos! That is so uncommon on the internet. People don't seem to change their minds much around here. I'm honored and grateful.
Funny how the more videos you do on false friends and I look into my NLT, I find its more accurate than the KJV Ive used for years. I love virtually all translations.
But the KJV isn't inaccurate-it's just speaking a different English! What the NLT has over the KJV is just that the NLT speaks contemporary English, like we do.
I love the Messiah! (Both meanings intended.) This year, as I listened to the solos at my local sing-along, I noticed another False Friend. The tenor belted out, "Speak ye comfortably to Jerusalem." Maybe my kids wished that the tenor could sing a bit more comfortably. Thanks to conversations with you, my ears perked up. It tuns out that modern English translations use other words (like tenderly). The OED cites this Isaiah passage as an example of a sense of "comfortably" that is obsolete. Thanks for making these rough passages plain to me.
P.S. I just posted our first interview this morning. Thanks again!
Yes! And I love the "rough passages plain" line!
Thanks for letting me know about the posting!
Once again, an excellent discourse, Mark! As always, I pull out the NWT and follow along. To be brief for Psalm 1:2....
The KJV - "RAGE"; NWT 2013 - “agitated”; Original NWT - “tumult.” In Jonah 1:15 NWT - “raging” In Prov. 20:1 NWT 2013 - "alcohol is unruly"; Original NWT
- "intoxicating liquor is boisterous."
And for the KJV - "IMAGINE"; NWT - "muttering," the footnote has “meditate on”; In Gen. 11:6 NWT 2013 - “have in mind to do”; NWT “scheme.”
As for “people/peoples” NWT is in 100% compliance with every one of Mark’s examples.
I don't know if 'imagine' is quite far gone yet. While it isn't as strong as the verb 'plot,' given the context, it calls to my mind more of the finding of clever and inventive plots. But for modern English, I would prefer the thing they are imagining being definitively named as a 'plot' rather than a 'thing.'
The Legacy Standard has "Why do the [a]nations rage
And the peoples meditate on a vain thing?" To me it reads similar to KJV.
I think "rage" is one of those rare false friends that has stuck around from the KJV without modern translators realizing what's going on. I could be wrong!
"Wine is a mocker, strong drink a brawler..." While I memorized a lot of verses in KJV, that one I oddly memorized in RSV. Maybe because it rings better that way.
To be fair I can see why some modern translations use rage in Psalm 2:1, though I agree there are words that are clearer. There are times in modern English where rage can mean growing in strength or restless, we might say raging wind or fire for example.
Excellent video Dr. Ward. I was thinking raging in Proverbs 20:1 meant overtaking. As in strong drink is over taking said person. Guess I was wrong :)
We all have so much to learn!
rage- proclaim assertively in opposition
imagine- believe
vain- false
Missed it by a mile.
These are tough. Subtle.
@@markwardonwords The videos using this strategy, where the false friend isn’t pointed out, but the viewer is asked to discover the word on their own seem more effective in demonstrating that there are words that are not realized to be misunderstood.
I should have done this consistently in all videos… I'm doing so in my book, which I'm trying to finish in the next two weeks: KJV Words You Don't Know You Don't Know (Lexham Press, 2024/5).
Wow, the "people" one surprised me!
Re: "Imagine" - This was actually on my list of possible False Friends that I want to investigate better before sending to you. I had noticed it in Genesis 6:5 where the KJV says "...every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually." As you show in this video, the actual meaning is that "...every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually."
Thanks! - Omar
Right! And thank you for keeping such lists!
People, imagine, and thing
2/3 not bad
Yes indeed!
What is the difference then between the use of the words “imagine” and “devise” in the KJV
My Guess: heathen, rage, imagine. ~Nick~
Good guess! What do you think now that you’ve watched the video?
@@markwardonwords Thank you! I never thought of "people" being a false friend! I thank God for you, and thank you for using your gift. It is really a load off to have confidence in bible translations. I'm really looking forward to the new Textual Confidence Collective Videos to come out!
Bro's never been to a rager and it shows 😢
Douay-Rheims 1610: “Why did the Gentiles rage, and peoples meditate vaine things?” Interesting choice of “meditate”, I wonder why.
From Samuel Johnson's 1755 dictionary:
To Me'ditate. v.a. [mediter, French; meditor, Lat.] To plan; to scheme; to contrive.
@@MAMoreno Excellent, thanks! Makes sense.
Rage still carries the same sense today, but only when referring to the ocean (raging seas) - unless “rage” in the modern sense of “raging seas” actually means “angry seas”, then it’s the modern version that is a False Friend, because I always thought it meant “tumultuous”. If you’re telling me that “rage” when applied to the ocean today means “very angry” then I’ve been using it wrong this whole time.
Very interesting. I wonder what people would say if asked.
I have a question about a similar problem with the word people in Luke 2,10. I am German and all my German translation translate as „the whole nation“ whereas all the English translations I could find translate as „all people“. This is quite a significant difference I think. Thoughts?
Thank you so much for sharing this with us here on UA-cam by the way!
My pleasure!
I think there is a natural ambiguity in the Greek: "all the people" vs. "all people." Both are legitimate translations. I have to assume it's the latter because of the story of Scripture. But both are grammatically possible.
I wonder if the word, "seethe" might be a good substitute for "rage". Hmmm. Probably not much better for the modern reader.
Thank you!
I encountered "...Casting down imaginations" in 1 Corinthians 10:5 this week studying for a devotion. I'm a little stumped about why the KJV has this word when all MVs I checked go with "arguments". I'm guessing it's just a translation choice, but maybe they intended the obsolete "plot/plan" sense?
BTW, "People" blew my mind. Probably the last word in that verse I would've guessed.
William Tyndale first used "imaginations" in 2 Corinthians 10.5 when he translated the New Testament in 1525, and his word choice managed to stick around through the ASV of 1901. Samuel Johnson's 1755 dictionary gives a sense for "imagination" that would work here: "Conception; image in the mind; idea." (Noah Webster borrowed this definition for his 1828 dictionary.) See also this OED definition: "Formerly also: †the inner operations of the mind in general, thinking; thought, opinion (obsolete)."
The Greek word, λογισμοὺς, means "reasoning" in this verse, according to Thayer's lectionary (which goes on to say that this reasoning is "such as is hostile to the Christian faith"). You can see that the Greek word is related to English words such as "logical." That's why the RSV of 1946 and many subsequent versions went with the word "arguments" (in the sense of "a coherent series of reasons, statements, or facts intended to support or establish a point of view," to quote Merriam-Webster).
@@MAMoreno Thank you, that’s helpful!
You're right about people!
I've puzzled over "imaginations" in 2 Cor 10:5, too. I don't have a confident answer.
@@CalebRichardson I've probably edited the comment multiple times since you first read it. I kept throwing in more sources because I felt my answer was inadequate, but perhaps it's just overkill now...
I asked Chatgpt:
Does limited as used in Ps 78:41 have an obsolete or archaic form sense that could mean provoked, pained and offended.
It responded:
Yes, in the context of the King James Version (KJV) of the Bible, the word "limited" in Psalm 78:41 can be understood in an archaic sense to mean "provoked," "pained," or "offended." Language evolves over time, and some words or phrases may have had different connotations or meanings in earlier periods. In this case, "limited" in the KJV reflects an older usage that is less common or recognizable in modern English.
Is limited a false friend in ps 78:41
And could we using Chatgpt help us quickly verify false friends??
“Yea, they turned back and tempted God, and limited the Holy One of Israel.”
(Psalm 78:41 KJV)
Fascinating. I don't see any evidence that the word "limit" could ever mean "provoke." So I don't know what the KJV translators were thinking, because the LXX has a word meaning "provoke," and the Vulgate does, too. I'm stymied.
@@markwardonwords okay love the work you're doing now I am using other versions with confidence... and you've cleared lots of misconceptions I had about other versions
The AI seems to have it wrong here.
The American Presbyterian commentator Albert Barnes said the following about this word choice in the KJV:
*And limited the Holy One of Israel - The idea is, that they set a limit to the power of God; they fancied or alleged - (and this is a thing often done practically even by the professed people of God) - that there was a boundary in respect to power which he could not pass, or that there were things to be done which he had not the ability to perform.*
*The original word - תוה tâvâh - occurs but three times in the Scriptures; in 1 Samuel 21.13, where it is rendered scrabbled (in the margin, made marks); in Ezekiel 9.4, where it is rendered set, that is, set a mark (margin, mark); and in the place before us. It is rendered here by the Septuagint and the Latin Vulgate, to provoke to anger. DeWette translates it troubled. Professor Alexander, "On the Holy One of Israel (they) set a mark."*
*The idea in the word would seem to be that of making a mark for any purpose; and then it means to delineate; to scrawl; or to set a mark for a limit or boundary. Thus it might be applied to God - as if, in estimating his character or his power, they set limits or bounds to it, as one does in marking out a farm or a house-lot in a city or town. There was a limit, in their estimation, to the power of God, beyond which he could not act; or, in other words, his power was defined and bounded, so that beyond a certain point he could not aid them.*
Mark, do you still have a video on the Berean Standard Bible?
I never did make one!
6:42 - I love that font. A form of Gothic, but I don't know its name.
Yes, it looks like a black letter gothic. 😊
It's a contemporary reimagining of a gothic script.
fonts.adobe.com/fonts/ff-brokenscript
Pause-guess: 1) 'vain'. It's so often a problem. Particularly in Ecclesiastes. The contemporary sense of some action being done "in vain" seems close to the sense often meant in the KJV. 2) and 3)? Well, there aren't many words left! I'm gonna guess 'rage' and 'imagine'. This is one of those verses where I'm pretty sure l don't get it, and can't even guess what it might be meant to mean.
Good guess! What do you think now that you’ve watched the video?
@@markwardonwords l didn't expect "people" to be a false friend! Thanks for the video. Finally l understand this verse. It should have been obvious from v.2, but l just never got it. I still think 'vain' (without a preceding 'in') is a false friend, here and many other places.
@@russell13904 Say more. You think most readers will take it to mean "having or showing an excessively high opinion of one's appearance, abilities, or worth" (NOAD)? But NOAD also gives this sense: "producing no result; useless: a vain attempt to tidy up the room | the vain hope of finding work.• having no meaning or likelihood of fulfillment: a vain boast."
@@markwardonwords good point! However, if one said "tidying his room was vain" or "tidying his room was a vain thing" or "tidying his room was vanity", or "he plotted a vain thing", the first sense would probably be assumed. Perhaps it doesn't quite meet your criteria for a false friend, since the sense is not obsolete, but the way it is used in the KJV almost certainly trips people up regularly. (This is one of those words that my pastor explains virtually every time it comes up.)
Funny....the nearest Bible I had was Matthew's....I don't have a Great Bible...but I notice that "rage" in Ps 2:1 replaced "grudge" somewhere along the line....ah ha! In the Geneva! Got me wondering ....did that crew in Geneva identify "Grudge" as a false friend in that time period?
You've blessed me with a fanatical pass time! Love it! God bless!
Ha! Thank you!
Interestingly, the best modern translation of the Latin text would be more intelligible to a modern reader: Why were the Gentiles in an uproar, and why did the nations plan worthless things? (Interestingly, Jerome hewed closer to a literal translation in his Psalterium iuxta Hebraeos: Quare TURBABANTUR gentes et populi meditabantur inania? Why were the Gentiles in an uproar and the nations meditating worthless things?)
So I’m new to this channel. So false friends are words in the text that are misconstrued in the KJV? I wasn’t sure what false friends was referring to.
Yes. False friends are words people don't know they don't know-because of language change. Check out some more on the Fifty False Friends in the KJV playlist and you'll get the idea, I promise!
ua-cam.com/play/PLq1Aq0ucgkPCtHJ5pwhrU1pjMsUr9F2rc.html
@@markwardonwords thank you , I will! I found you thru Doreen Virtue.
My guesses: heathen, imagine, vain.
Edit: dang, 1 out of 3?
Ha! It's ok! I was zero for three not too long ago!
Wow, "rage" is actually a case in which playing Pokemon will help understanding of the Bible. The move "Rage" that a lot of Pokemon, including my favorite Charizard, can learn, has a lot to do with the older meaning of restless and wanton damage, like a child throwing things willy-nilly, rather than simply getting angry.
Never could get into Pokemon… Never understood the draw…
@@markwardonwords When I was a kid, Pokemon Red was basically the only Game Boy game I played. My sister and I would often connect our Game Boys to battle each other, and every morning before school we'd watch the cartoon.
I wish I could recall the exact example but at my age memory is like a sieve, it doesn’t catch smaller particles, but I did notice that a ‘false friend” in one of your videos seems to have been carried over to the NKJV. Am I mistaken? If not I would love a video discussing NKJV words held over from the KJV that might not be so clear to us today. If I am mistaken and simply found a word in the NKJV that I as a lesser educated person tripped over than feel free to ignore my comment.
You're not mistaken! I think there are a tiny few of these. "Host" is arguably one of them. And what was the other… It was recent… "Rage" in Psalm 2:1, maybe?
Though I would have to always consider the context in order to determine whether ‘people’ refers to one group/nation (like Israel) or multiple groups/nations, I have always bristled at the word PEOPLES being used as a plural. ‘People’ is both singular and plural. It would be like the word ‘sheep’, which is both singular and plural. Never ‘sheeps’.
But then again, maybe I was either taught incorrectly or I was taught correctly but it never sank in. That was back in the 60s and early 70s.
Would I be right to think that you're not a fan of "persons," either?
@@MAMoreno , ‘person’ is always singular - therefore the plural would be ‘persons’. ‘People’ however, can be used for either one group of multiple persons or multiple groups of multiple persons. At least that is how I remember being taught.
But that was many years ago. I might have never changed while the English language did change. 🙂
However, I must say that I both appreciate and benefit from Mark Ward’s videos. He is extremely thorough.
I love Handel's Messiah. As much as I love the poetry of the lyrics, I have definitely struggled to understand the archaic renderings of a few words. Maybe there are other passages in Messiah in which false friends abound?😅
I bet there are! I enjoyed the performance so much that I wasn’t really focused on that. I actually wrote this script before seeing the Messiah recently; I then added the illustration, because it was such a perfect opportunity.
Unfortunately, Mark is simply wrong when he says "Rage in 1611 could mean something it _can't mean_ today", citing an obsolete definition: To behave wantonly, licentiously or riotously. I might be nearly 70 years old, but even I know that the first definition of rage in the online Urban Dictionary is: To party extremely hard, excessive drinking etc. In my experience modern readers are very likely to understand this passage to ask "Why do the unbelievers say Saturday night - let's *rage* " And it's still perfectly acceptable to describe turbulent floodwater as a raging torrent. That would be understood fine.
You make an appropriate appeal to authority. You might have added the NOAD and Merriam-Webster, though not American Heritage.
The presence or absence of a given sense of a word is not something that can be confirmed via an all-knowing computer. Real-life people have to listen to and read other real-life people. In the assessment of the OED editors, the relevant sense, the one I believe the KJV translators chose, is obsolete. My question: can you confirm that modern readers of the KJV (and NKJV and others that still use "rage") are getting the sense intended, or are they hearing the "anger" sense? Neither of us has done that work. My gut tells me most will hear only anger in the word.
@@markwardonwords Giving Mark favorable credit; he isn't one for going to "Dance Rages" or "Dance Rage Competitions" thus, most commendably, not totally aware of of every facet or usage of "rage" in modern times - no anger implied. :)
@@19king14 I certainly don't aim to discredit Mark! If anyone thought that, I would be filled with -a desire to wantonly carouse- rage. He may not have had a cousin like mine who when we were still in our mid-forties, visited and suggested we might go out and rage Saturday night. (I declined & we listened to music at home...) But an academic should still make sure their opening premise is defensible. Mark chose the parameters "something it *can't mean* today". If that was done in a debate, I think Mark's opponent would be delighted.
@@PlatypusPerspective I agree with you. I too, am nearly 70 years old. In our longer lives we've heard and used expressions like 'raging rapids,' 'raging fires,' 'raging hurricanes' and spoke of teenagers with 'raging hormones.' We have a dear friend with epilepsy who would experience 'fits of rage.' None of this involves anger but simply 'going berserk' crazy. Could it be even middle aged people no longer hear or speak this way?
@@19king14 A news item video just popped up on my feed, titled: Covid-19 might be over, but brain damage still rages on
As I watch your videos, I compare it to many of the so-called KJV Updates: 21st Century KJV, Jubilee, NKJV, MEV, NCPB, KJV3, etc and I really wish there was a responsible update that had the false friends fixed and little else…
I do too.
I'm not sure that I've ever heard anyone use the word 'peoples'. Perhaps if we read the Word in the Spirit , a great deal of these supposed 'false friends' could be eliminated.
Think carefully here: are the 100 KJV-Only pastors who did so poorly on my false friends quiz (kjbstudyproject.com) showing that they are failing to read the Word in the Spirit? Does the Spirit promise to teach us new languages and new words, sort of like a gift of interpretation for Bible readers? Or can we just update “coasts” to “borders”? If what we need is NOT translation into our language but instead Spirit-illumination (and why not both?), then why not use the Hebrew and Greek and read those in the Spirit? Does that make sense?
@@markwardonwords I can’t speak for your data, only my own experience. I don’t deny that there are false friends but that ‘people’, and possibly ‘rage’, would not make my list.
“People” here is plural: ”And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.“
Revelation 21:3 AV
”Then I heard a loud voice from the throne: Look, God’s dwelling is with humanity, and he will live with them. They will be his peoples, and God himself will be with them and will be their God.“
Revelation 21:3 CSB
What’s it mean that they shall be his peoples? Possibly that the new heavens and new earth will be filled with nations that are all of God’s peoples, they’re all redeemed! Interesting! Any thoughts here?
Bullinger caught it: "peoples. Gr. laos. Whereas it was people, Israel, it is now peoples, called “the nations” in v. 24."
Bullinger, Ethelbert W. The Companion Bible: Being the Authorized Version of 1611 with the Structures and Notes, Critical, Explanatory and Suggestive and with 198 Appendixes. Vol. 1. Bellingham, WA: Faithlife, 2018. Print.
Apparently there's a textual variant there-the ESV has a footnote. Interesting.
@@markwardonwords Here the TR (all editions) & CT agree with the plural "laoi". So this is what the AV translators had before them. It's the Byzantine/Majority Text that has the singular laos with which the ESV & LSB go with, over the TR and Nestles.
Very interesting indeed!
CDC is partisan at the highest levels…
I'm not saying it's not, my friend. I'm not saying it is. I'm saying that, in an ideal world, we'd be able to trust the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention to give good-sense recommendations for controlling and preventing disease. It's very sad when you feel you can't trust the CDC. That's all.
@@markwardonwords I hear you, I just wanted to point that out. As a scientist, their recommendations have not been all scientifically-driven and some have been quite politically-driven. Fauci's most recent testimony has had to admit as much.
I getcha. What kind of science do you do?
I do not see a problem with Ps. 2:1. The only question is- how do you deal with the fact that the phrase "imagine a vain thing" could mean different things, depending on who is reading it.
Pause at 1:34. Concerning "rage". It is odd to see many ENGLISH Bible-- ASV, NKJV, ESV, NASB, and even the weak NIV-- merely copy words from a previous translation. The sad reality is that most ( 95% or more) English Bibles are just minor tweeks of whatever version it is a revision of.
Pause at 2:43. Sadly, even in explaining the word "rage"- Mark Ward than uses 2 archaic words that FEW people use today.
Concerning Prov. 20:1. I would have taken this at face value. rage seems to equal/imply a "mean drunk". IF/Since that is not what this word means- based from the Hebrew- this shows that even "safe" and understandable words in the KJV of the Bible could be wrong.
If "imagine" does not mean imagine- then clearly-- even modern translations need to stop blindly copying English Bible from 400 or even 123 years ago. Wow. "Imagine" means to PLOT/plan. ( One would NEVER get this by merely and ONLY reading the KJV of the Bible.)
Pause at 14:05. A lot could be said about the questions that arise around the part of the verses where the word "holy" is mentioned. But I will refrain from diving into it here- since I wish for an answer that is more than just comment on UA-cam.
Pause 15:54. This is not a language problem, but rather a question about the past history of Jacob's fathers. For- if God said to Abraham or Jacob: "You are about to die and be gathered to your "people"."- this implies that his "people" ( those from his family history are clearly- as not being members of AM YISRAEL) have him still count with THEM- even though God called Abraham to leave his family and people.
Pause at 19:08. This reminds me of how mind-boggoling it is that I can find CLEAR errors in various English Bible, and yet learned scholars keep missing them again and again and again when they make a new or revised English Bible.
Annnnnnnnnnnd then there are the Ruckmanite-type of KJV Onlyists who tell people to not look at the Hebrew and Greek and that the KJV English is more PURE then the biblical language. ( see Genesis 1:1) Most KJV Onlyists would be red with RAGE/ANGER if they ever read the 1611 KJV's "Translator's to the Reader".
I didn't say there was a problem with Psalm 2:1 in the KJV, my friend.
You're not wrong about most Bibles being minor tweaks of other Bibles.
Hi, I'm an ESV reader from Brazil and there's a verse in the ESV that drives me crazy...Mt 3:13 Then Jesus came from Galilee to the Jordan to John, to be baptized by him. 14 John WOULD HAVE PREVENTED him, saying, “I need to be baptized by you, and do you come to me?”.... It's seems to me that the ESV translators are supposing that it happened while the other versions affirm it...John tried to prevent him. Maybe I'm missing the point because I'm a non-native English speaker. Can you tell me? Is the ESV supposing that it happened?
That is archaic English. It does mean that he tried. Does that help?
@@markwardonwords It helped a lot... I imagined that it had to do with ARCHAIC English.
The ESV is one of the translations I use. I also use the NIV, (it's not evil), and the NLT. Between these translations and Strong's I can usually gain the understanding of what a passage means.
The problem is I'm so conditioned to the KJV I can read what is really meant and still miss it.
Pray & Study Friend 🙏
Blessings 🕊️
Heathen,
Vain,
Imagine
I got one right but only cuz I knew imagine was one...
Good video
So heathen and peoples is a form of synonymous parallelism... cool
Exactly!
Rage, imagine, vain?
Good guess! What do you think now that you’ve watched the video?
@@markwardonwords The last one really surprised me. I love how you position it though. It's not that the KJV interpreters got it wrong. They got it right for their time.
Mark, do you know anything about the MEV (Modern English Version)? I see that it is a new translation, it uses the TR and is supposed to be an update of the KJV. Good video as always!!
Yes, I do! I frequently recommend it as a modern-English, TR-based KJV alternative!
@@markwardonwords I was in my local Christian bookstore the other day to see what bibles they had, I noticed that they didn’t have the MEV. If I remember correctly, they had KJV, NKJV, NLT, NIV, NASB, ESV, CSB, and NET.
I'm "trolling" "Like people, that's complex you can't say people means people because it doesn't..... Taken together these false friends present an unnecessary impediment to the kind of understanding that would otherwise be *possible for people*".
So is it possible for "people" or for "peoples" ? (ROFL) (One of your Spanish speaking friends)
Entirely off topic might I ask where you stand on the whole Calvinist/Arminian/Traditionalist spectrum? I have no desire to debate any position I am simply curious of your position.
You'll catch hints here and there, but I don't tend to want to get into that topic on this channel. One huge controversy that causes some Christians to hate others is enough for one channel!
@@markwardonwords Hehe Understood. I am just trying to see where some people who I know have spent serious time studying the Bible stand. It’s an area I’ve never had total peace on.
@@SaneNoMore Responsible, influential, charitable voices. Look for those!
I may be counting on your indulgence in mentioning the Scots language in your comments again - but I keep finding that words now obsolete in English have a parallel word still preserved in Scots. We would still use ‘ragin’ as an adjective to describe things that are not angry or furious but ‘unleashed’, ‘uninhibited’. A ‘ragin’ drunk in Scots is not angry; he’s thrown off all restraint.
Wow! That is awesome! Do you have any way of confirming that the parallel you see is legitimate? On its face, it sure appears to be.
@@markwardonwords Alas - I’ve checked my ‘Chambers’s Scots Dialect Dictionary’ (prejudicially named, I have to say - one man’s ‘bad English’ is another man’s ‘dialect’ and yet another’s ‘language’) and a couple of online resources, but no written, scholarly confirmation that I can find. I could do a straw poll of my neighbours to confirm the sense, but no way that I can see of confirming the etymology, until the mighty OED has a Scottish counterpart.
Hey Mark! Gen 49:10 has a false friend: "gathering"?! Most modern English versions say "obedience". Even in my Arabic Bible, the word means obedience/submission...
I do not believe this is a false friend. This disagreement goes back hundreds of years. Calvin discusses it explicitly-even mentioning a third option that people had proposed in his time, namely "the *weakening* of the people" (he thought that option was absurd).
@@markwardonwords and I noticed that the Septuagint and the Vulgate have something like 'expectation'... The issue now seems complex. Thanks for the insights!
what is a false friend?
Watch a few of these, starting with the first (sorry for the slightly bad audio), and I think you'll see! ua-cam.com/play/PLq1Aq0ucgkPCtHJ5pwhrU1pjMsUr9F2rc.html
Haha funny that modern English tends to make the plural "peoples" explicitly different from "people" while Elizabethan English for all it's other second-person-pronoun strengths does not.
Right!
Is "equity" a false friend in the KJV (e.g. Psalms 99:4)? According to Hebrew, it simply meant justice or uprightness, but, as far as I know, it has a political or financial meaning nowadays.
According to modern dictionaries, no. Equity refers to “Fairness” and “Justice” in modern dictionaries. Inherently, it’s not political, but of course it tends to find its way into that spectrum.
So, no, it’s not a false friend.
"Equal" is a false friend in some places. Not sure about "equity."
Again, Dr. Ruckman missed all these, sadly!
Does anyone know what's up with the AV marginal note: "Or, tumultuously assemble"? Isn't this what rage means in it's obsolete sense or is it slightly different. Amazingly sometimes I find that there are naturally false friends in the marginal notes as well!
Excellent catch! I don't know that this means they saw a distinction in the meanings of "rage" and "tumultuously assemble"-or that they saw the distinction we see in our English.
@@markwardonwords Interesting!
Also check out: "corrupt" in 2 Cor. 2:17 (if you haven't found that one already, I'm pretty positive theres a false friend there as well).
I will indulge and post one of my mini studies regarding the difference that exists between Greek and Aramaic Versions of The New Testament. I am going to reproduce several Bible texts from the Aramaic version of The New Testament regarding this matter of Lord Jesus being "begotten" since Eternity past. I realize the subject is not quite pertinent to the content of your lecture, but I believe we can all learn from each other even when we diverge a little...
Please look through their translation without letting yourself to be intimidated by the 4000 year ancient Aramaic Language - still spoken in many villages and hamlets throughout Middle East - and you will easily see my point. Please note that the Aramaic words are read from right to left, just like Hebrew - just in case you will want to identify some of the Aramaic "The Estrangela" alphabet letters-. And you will surely note that the text word "begotten" - the "flagship" and main text that they are basing their false teaching on - IS ABSOLUTELY and POSITIVELY ABSENT - NOT THERE !!!... So I will have to sadly say: they can ignore REALITY, but they will never be able to ignore the real consequences of their utter ignorance. "My people are destroyed (perish!) for lack of knowledge"... Hosea 4:6. And they should please remember: "TRUTH" always sanctifies character; error - never...
***
*** ܒܪܫܝܬ ܐܝܬܘܗܝ ܗܘܐ ܡܠܬܐ ܘܗܘ ܡܠܬܐ ܐܝܬܘܗܝ ܗܘܐ ܠܘܬ ܐܠܗܐ ܘܐܠܗܐ ܐܝܬܘܗܝ ܗܘܐ ܗܘ ܡܠܬܐ
JOHN 1:1* " ܒܪܫܝܬ " B'Aarashit "In the beginning" there was " ܡܠܬܐ " The Miltha {The Word}, and He, The Miltha {The Word}, was with "ܐܠܗܐ " Alaha {God}. And Alaha {God} Himself was The Miltha {The Word}."
{***>>>Please note: "AND ALAHA (GOD) WAS THE MILTHA - THE WORD"Please note: IQIDIA-- ܕܝܚܝܕܝܐ - " His UNIQUE Son " - but NO "BEGOTEN" word"Please note again: THERE IS just IQIDIA-- ܕܝܚܝܕܝܐ - " His UNIQUE Son " - but NO "BEGOTTEN" word"Please note: the word is again "ܝܚܝܕܝܐ" IQIDIA but not "begotten" since "begotten" is in ITALIC letters, denoting that the translated word is NOT in the original text, but added by the translators.
follow the $$$$$ on the agencies
This really is a difficult one, because not only is the KJV misleading (to modern readers), but a whole slew of modern translations aren't much better. If I missed you telling us I apologise, but which translation actually gets it right (for today!), do you think?
Excellent question. I tend to think that these got it right:
NASB95 Why are the nations in an uproar And the peoples devising a vain thing?
REB Why are the nations in turmoil? Why do the peoples hatch their futile plots?
NEB Why are the nations in turmoil? Why do the peoples hatch their futile plots?
TLV Why are the nations in an uproar, and the peoples mutter vanity?
ISV Why are the nations in an uproar, and their people involved in a vain plot?
@@markwardonwords Yes: 'nations'.......'peoples'. German has always been clear because the second word can only be plural (Völker - peopleS!). Sometimes it helps me to consult a non-English translation! (I was a German teacher).
I really appreciate your erudition, professionalism and devotion to the subject at hand - Bible translation. Bible translations have served humanity quite well for many centuries. But let's be honest: the many denominations that have sprung up among us Protestants, in the last several centuries have sprung up largely as a result of ever so slight differences between Bible versions. And in my opinion, the main problem of Western Christianity and even part the Eastern is that the Bible translators embraced a very poor choice in translating The word "ELOHIM".
Translating the Hebrew word ELOHIM as God, Gott, Zeus, Deus, Theos, Dios, Dieu, Bog, Boj, Bruckan (Mongolian) or Pucheckhame (aboriginal Peruvian; imagine having to read: "In the beginning Pucheckhame (or Bruckan) created the heavens and the earth") was extremely detrimental to the teachings of Christianity. The Lord Jesus NEVER uttered a word like those names above. He almost always called His Father "ABBA" - "The Father", and only couple of times that I remember called The Father "ELOHE" (singular) - or maybe even ELOHIM. It is these Western translators, following the dilapidated and vandalized (that is of course another story) Greek text, that invented or adopted all these pagan names that now attribute them to ELOHIM - and even to The Father, exclusively. The Hebrew "ELOHIM" means in English: DIVINITY - GODHEAD - HOLINESS and NOT just The FATHER. So they say "GOD" is a person, NOT a plurality - and - let's assume for a minute that that is right. But can they tell me I pray - WHAT is ELOHIM - as per Gensis 1:1 then ? Is it "GOD" ? That is a childish, circular argument !
The Three Persons of, or The Triune ELOHIM (plural, beginning with the FIRST verse in the Bible, and all the way to the last pages of Revelation) always EXISTED, and we worship an authentic Triune ELOHIM. No other deity - out of a multitude of cold, dead deities - qualifies for that title - that was what The Lord was trying to teach the people of ancient Israel... And let's talk for a minute about our Savior - "Before Abraham was", said Lord Jesus to Moses, some 4000 years ago, and to the Judean leaders, shortly before Hs crucifixion "I AM. And if you do not believe that I AM, you will die in your sins".
And then we come to the matter of Lord Jesus being "begotten" sometime back in eternity. That literally robs The Savior of His ETERNITY. It seems to me that all of those so called "antitrinitarians" need to be a bit more sincere, fairer and not so unfairly and expeditiously accusatory, and quite frankly, they need to study a bit more before they start peddling such absurd theories like Lord Jesus being "begotten" twice... That might actually be considered a sacrilege...
And to cap it off, the word "begotten" is absolutely non-existing in (in my opinion) the most trusted New Testament text (John 3:16,18) - except "monogenesis" - in Greek ! In John, we have the word "ܝܚܝܕܝܐ" - "IQIDIA"- in Aramaic which means "UNIQUE", ORIGINAL, ONLY and NOT at all "begotten". - So all their theology is actually and almost exclusively based and gravitating around a non-existing word supposedly referring to HIS LONGEVITY! And YES, the word "begotten" IS in The New Testament, but that refers to us mainly, and even to The Savior in couple of instances - but the word applies only at His RESSURECTION, not even at His Human birth! They are actually taking pride in "exposing trinitarian falsity" which in the end they are just stimulating these people that believe correctly the biblical concept of The ELOHIM - to actually study even more and expose THEM as promoters of falsity !
And another hot subject is "The Spirit of ELOHIM", which for millenia people of faith have interpreted as a distinct Person of ELOHIM, and not just "the Father's breath", or a "force" or an "influence". So I will repeat again the words of Jesus: when we say that we DO understand QUITE WELL - we mean that Lord Jesus, so eloquently describing The Person of The Spirit of EOHIM - declared that "a sin against The SON", and implicitly against The FATHER - "can possibly be forgiven", but "a sin against The SPIRIT of ELOHIM will NEVER be forgiven" - NEVER, NEVER, NEVER, NEVER - Never EVER ! So I am appealing to them to please do not treat the subject of The Holy Spirit lightly, wrongly and negligently - or else finally they will have to face a different than desired eternal result. That way, they won't end up in receiving that final, terrible and feared admonition - at the end of time: "Depart from Me, ... for I do not know you" ! All these artificial and false theological concoctions that they are exhibiting might not be finally worth exchanging for their eternal future...