Airbus A320 MISSED Airport by OVER 100 miles, WHY?! | Northwest Airlines Flight 188
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- Опубліковано 4 тра 2024
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Northwest Airlines Flight 188 was a regularly scheduled flight from San Diego, California, to Minneapolis, Minnesota, on October 21, 2009, which landed over one hour late in Minneapolis after overshooting its destination by more than 100 nautical miles. In this video I will tell you everything about what happened on that day including the circumstances which led up to it. Enjoy
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Below you will find the links to videos and sources used in this episode. Enjoy checking them out!
Sources
-----------------------------------------------------
Final Report:
data.ntsb.gov/Docket/?NTSBNum...
NWA Headquarters: UNKNOWN
www.bizjournals.com/twincitie...
News Article: Mark Trumbull / The Christian Science Monitor
www.csmonitor.com/USA/2009/10...
News Article: NED POTTER / ABC News
abcnews.go.com/US/northwest-f...
News Article: Mike Ahlers / CNN
edition.cnn.com/2010/TRAVEL/03...
9/11 image: UNKNOWN
www.familysearch.org/en/blog/...
NWA Logo New: NWA
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northwe...
NWA Logo Old: NWA
commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Fi...
Delta Logo: Delta.com
commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Fi...
Delta Airbus A320: Delta Airlines
www.delta.com/gb/en
Northwest Airbus A320: Blonde_Bird / Med
www.airline-empires.com/index....
Bidding system: IBS Software
www.ad-opt.com/crew-rostering...
Crew Room: Mesa Air
www.glassdoor.co.uk/Photos/Me...
Hotel: Unknown
ontheroadwithjen.com/grand-hy...
Pilots licence: Jonathan Thorne
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Private...
CHAPTERS
-----------------------------------------------------
00:00 - Intro
00:24 - The Merger
02:25 - Duty Friction
03:48 - The Flight Crew
05:19 - The Day Before
06:16 - Getting Underway
07:36 - Turbulence
08:21 - Headsets Off
09:58 - Comm Systems & ACARS
11:26 - Getting Comfortable
13:04 - NORDO/PLOC Events
14:51 - Top Of Descent
16:00 - Denver Center Is Worried
17:15 - Where Are We?
19:41 - Getting The Message
21:00 - Media Coverage
21:55 - Repercussions
Aircraft used - FlightFactor-A320Ultimate:
store.x-plane.org/A320-Ultima...
GSGNG3FS5FHNRHNK
Worst part is that by the time the captain figured out how the bidding system worked... he didn't need to use it anymore.
😂
😲
@@radioace318la Just curious, why the ground crew?
@@MachTuck a slight exaggeration on my part. but just bearly.
@@radioace318la I hear you man, got it
Missing 8 calls from mom is bad. Imagine missing 8 calls from ATC
Missing call from mom is much worse☠️
Or wife! 😂😂😂
@@MJ-rj9bbI dunno, my mom has never sent fighter jets to check up on me :P
@@giin97, do not give her a chance more...
Imagine if your mom was the ATC
This is truly bizarre. I get that they got distracted, but this is them forgetting that they are flying a plane for over an hour.
When you are having a good time with your friends, do you check your watch/mobile/clock?😂
Agreed, very bizarre. The length of time, missing the calls and texts, not noticing that their navigation screen went dark, not to mention it getting dark outside... it's clear to see why they got breathalyzer tests after landing.
Agreed. We've all had intense conversations and burnt dinner, but I've never lost track of driving my car. I realise it's different, but that's the point: driving is higher stakes than cooking dinner, and flying a plane is an entirely different scale. Did they not look at their instruments at all??
@@cuttingcut1321 Depends if I'm operating a hundred people in a flying gas tank.
yes@@cuttingcut1321
I just wonder how overly-complicated their bidding system was to cause that level of inattention...
Seriously. If a bidding system takes over an hour of full attention to figure out, it needs to be changed.
Way too complicated. It's a whole new programming language. Pilots have to be skillful aviators, air law experts, and computer programmers.
Probably not too complicated. It was obviously beyond the pilots abilities but so was flying the airplane competently.
150 page instruction manual, sounds pretty over complicated :P
@@srf2112It is mentioned in this very video that both pilots had good performance and training records up to that point. Very easy to judge isn’t it.
When they realized they had let time get away from them and they realized what they had done, that had to be a SICK feeling.
nose down
Man... You're 1000% right. I would've looked at the 1st officer like "Welp, our aviation careers are over buddy."
Surprised they didn't crash the plane I'm a sucide attempt.
@@precisi0n86tabirous is that you?!
worst bj ending ever
The company should have been reprimanded for having a scheduling system that could require over 90 minutes of 1 on 1 training.
Yeah, if a new procedure eats up that much time to understand then they should have allocated a lot more paid time for the pilots to sort through it on the ground.
@@neeneko Or stepped back and asked themselves "Why is this so complicated in the first place?" After all, this is a personnel procedure, not the flight manual for a 737.
@@sct913 Yeah I don't really understand this either. I'm astounded that whoever was in charge of this system didn't bother to step back and ask, "Is this too complicated?" before releasing the procedure to its employees.
Even if it didn’t make the report, I would hope the airline’s internal audit group took that part up to get it fixed. I do internal audit in the transportation industry and it wasn’t hard to start scoping the project in my head while I listened to this.
It was clearly a situation of they both fell asleep. If you had knowledge of pilot and ATC it would be clear to you that they wouldn’t fly more than 20 minutes without hearing anything on the radio!
As a pilot who flew in the Minneapolis area when this happened, I recall this incident well. The consensus many pilots came to was the flight crew were asleep, not distracted. They were woken up by the call from the flight attendants. How convenient that the power was cycled on the cockpit voice recorder. Regardless, the resulting loss of flying privileges is very appropriate for the aircrew.
This sounds more like it. Companies generally don't fire people because of a mistake, be it a serious one, it's still a mistake and can be fixed by adequate training. A serious negligence made on purpose on the other hand is a character trait, not suitable for aviation. Add lies and deception on top of that. What a terrible personnel. People like me would die for a commercial flying license, and then there's people like that who don't care at all.
@@ShazenVideosSounds like the trigger for them losing their jobs was the FAA revoking their pilot licenses, as opposed action internally by the airline.
If you take a look at the airman registry, these guys are back in the air. The FO has a 1st Class Medical from this year and his ATP is in good standing.
@@WestAirAviationyou are right. I wonder who they are flying for. Hopefully they are not distracted anymore. 🙄
@@WestAirAviationOn his appeal he blamed air traffic control. What a loser. No respect for him. He finally dropped the appeal. He was sleeping in my opinion.
It seems a little risky for the ACARS system to have a "Delete All" button just sitting there without a confirmation prompt. That was probably the most inconsequential event in this story, but I can imagine a scenario where it could come into play.
The guilty need to cover their butts.
@@mawmawvee I mean I've definitely done stuff like this in the McDu You click an LSK and expect something to happen, you click again when you think it's lagging but the next screen finally comes up and bam you click it. Very innocent behavior. Real cause is software engineering not thinking like a pilot
I wonder about that as well. It seems like basic common sense that a "Delete All" button would require confirmation, especially if it's a button that's easy to press accidentally (easily accessible, next to other buttons, no guard/cover, etc). This is especially true if those messages are from the airline, which would suggest they are important. It's not as if the messages are relatively inconsequential, such as "pick up suit from the dry cleaners" or "dinner at 6:30 instead of 6:00".
I mean even windows XP asks twice xD
@@mawmawvee correct. those ACARS were deleted by the pilots hoping to cover their own asses, that's it. it is NOT easy to delete those messages by accident.
Can you imagine the sick feeling those pilots had all the way back. And seeing all those cops and their boss there, it must have been the worst flight ever that did not involve a problem with the plane itself.
Yes.
I think they were only thinking of themselves and didn't have the capacity to think about their endangering so many other souls with their total childishness. If they felt sick, it wasn't because they cared about what they did being wrong. They knew it was wrong and did it anyway. This is the way the world is going these days and it in itself is sickening. The opposite of love is not hate--It's indifference.
They deserved it. Two extremely experienced pilots getting distracted to that extent is beyond unacceptable.
@@manixxzz1483 I absolutely agree with you. These guys got so distracted they forgot they were flying an airplane.
Doing something like that is alarming. While they would probably never get that distracted again, it still leaves you to wonder what other mistake you might make while flying.
These pilots exercised extremely poor judgment, and the FAA takes such things seriously.
If you show poor judgment you can loose your pilot's license even if you aren't flying an airplane at the time. For example, a DUI conviction will result in the loss of you license even if you never drink and fly.
Getting behind the wheel of a car when drunk shows bad judgment.
BTW Do you know the legal limit for BAC if you are flying? It's anything over 0.00. You take a dose of cough syrup, you are too drunk to legally fly an airplane.
@@erictaylor5462 Correct on everything except the alcohol limits. You can fly a plane if you haven’t had a drink in 8 hours and if your blood alcohol is under 0.02. Commercial policy is a bit more strict though.
My Wife and I were on this flight. Nobody knew anything was wrong. When the pilot announced they'd overflown the airport, I suspected their careers would be over.
I'm sure glad everyone was all right.
That's weird to me. I fly really often but at the same time, I hate flying (or at least, that's what I tell myself). I'm constantly tracking the flight status in anticipation for landing.
Oh, it happened. However so sorry for the pilots. But their fate was inevitable.
@@lrobinson4422 They did it to themselves, unfortunately. Go figure...
@@mawmawvee Hmmm
As a cabin crew member we have to check on the pilots every 30 min, either going into the cockpit or by inter phone. It's a company rule.
Isn’t it dangerous to be opening up the cockpit door? Genuinely curious
@@precisi0n86she meant what if a hijacker decided to open the cockpit door.
@@laurenanderson7330 The flight attendant probably does over the phone. If they have to open the cockpit door, then there's usually one or two flight attendants standing in front of the door until they close it.
@@precisi0n86 Jesus Christ…think before you speak lol
in a different video he explains how the doors open from outside in flight. it works something like this: You put a code into a number field. After that the pilots gets a sound, if he ignores it for i think 30 seconds the door will unlock, but he is able to switch a lever to close and then the door doesnt open from the outside no matter what.@@laurenanderson7330
I had a friend who was a first officer on Eastern in the 70's. He told of a pilot who routinely flew New York to the midwest (can't recall where). For some reason, he was given a flight from New York to Miami, but was so used to the other route that he just blindly headed that way. They were apparently somewhere near Pittsburgh before anyone took notice. The crew rerouted and nothing more was said. Different times, different rules.
That’s sounds like a genuine mistake.
Imagine the confusion of the passengers when you land and there’s police waiting for their plane ✈️.
Imagine some of em ran 🤣🤣💀💀💀
@@Truth4Lyf 😂😂😂
Someone on the flight probably thought it was for them lolol
@@JamesLydon1 😂
Lol
One the plus side, they don't need to worry about that bidding system any more.
lol. funny
Always take the bride side of life... - quoting John Cleese.
Well, neither flew for NWA ever again, so yeah.
@@marhawkman303 Actually they were both DAL pilots at the time of the incident.
@@jcheck6 hmm, ok, but, same thing applies.
"We pilots are always interested in getting some food."
😂
That reminded me of the "Hollywood vs Reality" series on 74 Gear, when he said that an unrealistic aspect of "Airplane!" was the Captain not finishing dessert.
I think the aircraft deserves to be awarded the flight hours in command seeing it flew it's self for nearly the whole flight. I believe that now both pilots are working as IT experts...haha.
Can I just say, one of my favourite television shows growing up in Canada was 'Mayday: Air Crash Investigations', and this series you do absolutely blows that show out of the water. I just love how much depth of detail you provide in these stories, but also that they're about incidents in general and not just crashes or other famous 'accidents'. I've enjoyed all of your content over the years, but this series is really phenomenal. Congrats to you and your team!
Thank you for the comment. We do love making these. Thanks for being here and have a great weekend! 😎
Mayday still has its place. It's a TV show, so it can't be as in depth as Mentour can, but it allows for people who aren't aviation junkies to have a basic overview on how accidents happen, how they investigate those accidents, and how to resolve those causes, all in a TV friendly format. While TV needs that sort of breadcrumb motivation to keep watching to the end, Mentour can explain what's going on as it's going on in a way that only online video could do.
Mayday was so awesome, it really solidified my love of aviation as a kid, is it still running?
I find that style of TV show way to repetitive. It takes them ages to get simple points across and after each (long) ad break they go back over what has been said earlier, again and again. The general public must have really short attention spans to need that repetition or maybe the producers are trying to pad out the show to an hour. Mentour Pilot videos are far more informative with no boring repetition. Thank You. :)
@@jamespaddock736 There’s a show on the Smithsonian channel called Air Disasters that has new episodes.
My ex-wife was a flight attendant. She flew right after 9/11. The 737 she was on had experienced a VHF problem before 9/11, and maintenance did a comm check and signed it off. Just after takeoff from Chicago, ATC was unable to contact the flight. She got a good closeup look at a couple Air National Guard F-16's. Scary stuff. One of the passengers noticed the fighters and said "I feel so safe with those fighters flying with us." Sorry lady- They're there to shoot you down!
My husband and the co-pilot were in flight and one of the other pilots called them to ask if they knew they had two fighter planes coming up on them. Mike said when the one jet pulled up beside him, he waved to the pilot of the jet and the jet pilot waved back and the two jets escorted them back to their base. Turned out the transponder on their ship wasn't working, so no one could tell who they were. It was decided that the scramble was really not necessary, but you never know... He has a couple of other tales to tell about things during the first Gulf War, as well. He came home on break another time covered with blood and guts because a sea gull shredded itself when it smashed through the wind shield of his ship. That was NOT fun for anyone in the cockpit, but he took it in stride as part of the job. I'm just thankful they didn't crash. I felt sorry for the poor bird.
@@mawmawvee Ship?
@@hurricanemeridian8712 It's a term used for aircraft. Mike was a helicopter pilot for a little over 52 years. It's like calling a helicopter a chopper. Airship.
They aren’t really there to shoot you down but to inspect and get communication to you. No f16 would ever be told to shoot down 200+ people and then have an aircraft go down uncontrollably into a populated region.
@@jemand8462 That was the actual plan for how to deal with United 93 on 9/11, probably wouldn't have worked out ultimately because of timing but the only option they had was ram it out of the sky so they proceeded with it.
This also happened in Hawaii some years ago. Oahu to Hilo, overshot the Big Island by about 100 miles. They fell asleep.
Fell asleep?!!
WTHHH BRO MENTOUR PILOT NEEDS TO MAKE A VIDEO OUT OF THAT!
@@PAMELAPORTER-ci7mr Here it is, I live here on the big island, btw. Flight 1002, which left Honolulu on Feb. 13 2008 at 9:16 a.m., ended up overshooting Hilo International Airport by 15 miles, according to the FAA. Two pilots for Hawaii’s Go airlines who slept through their flight’s landing procedure were suspended for the careless and reckless operation of an aircraft, the Federal Aviation Administration said Tuesday. The pilots, who have been fired by Go, completed their suspensions on Sept. 9, FAA spokesman Ian Gregor said.
@@getsmarter5412yeah the suspension seems much more reasonable... Especially considering falling asleep is far worse. Taking yheir careers and livelihoods away after such a long and successful career is garbage. Typical US mindset i guess sadly.
@@RaccooniusIII apparently, the pilots in this story also fell asleep and were only woken up by the cabin crew's call. They probably let the voice recorder overwrite on purpose, while they were discussing what lies are they going to present to their bosses. They probably chose the bidding system so that the company would get a partial blame, but they obviously didn't buy it. If you really think about it it's obvious. A bidding system is neither particularily interesting, nor extraordinarily complicated, that it would require over 90 minutes of full concentration to get it. And even if their story was correct, there's no way a half responsible person wouldn't had looked at the instruments once in a while.
So to sum it up, they either fell asleep and lied, making them not suitable for flying, or they told the truth and were simply careless and irresponsible, also rendering them not suitable for flying. Either way, there was only one way out.
Imagine they finish their conversation and look up and see and wonder what are those F16s doing up here!!
Those F16s were never airborn because the airport control tower spent too long trying to cover the pilot's asses. Ironically, had they actually had F16s intercept the plane early, the pilots might have ended up keeping their licenses.
@@digitalcurrents or have the that notification sound installed in their plane that would've helped a lot
That could end drastically changing things. The passengers would surely be scared shitless if they noticed it, the pilots and cabin crew surely would be. I like planes and fighters are cool, but not something that I ever want pointing their weapons at me.
or ,hey whats that mountain goat doing up here in the clouds .
I just imagine the fighter pilot going "What are looking at there? Are you watching porn without inviting me?!"
While the Captain was sleeping, the pilot flying decided to catch up his favorite UA-cam channel, binge-watching Mentour Pilot as they flew way past their destination… 😁
Hahaha 🤣
Porn watching I would say. That would distract you some.
😂😂😂😂
Should have had Siri/Google set a reminder. 😁
😹😹
Speaking of distraction, how about falling asleep. I was a copilot 727 flying for a cargo outfit out of Miami, Cam Air no longer in business, en-route to JFK from Dayton. These are all night flights. The flight began in New Orleans then Dayton, the hub for Emery. Cam Air was wet leased by Emery. The Capt and Engineer went to Mardi Gras that day instead of sleeping. I refused to go. NP going to Dayton but climbing out of Dayton for JFK at 4 am passing thru FL270 to FL350 I looked over and the Capt was asleep. It was the Capt leg. I looked behind me and the Engineer was asleep. So I took over and let them sleep till about an hour before landing in NY. What if I had gone to Mardi Gras with them? I probably wouldn't be writing this post.
When this first broke (I'm in MSP area and worked with NW and Delta during the merge - couldn't get away from this story), I legit thought they were lying about everything to hide the fact that they both feel asleep in the cockpit.
@@mangos2888 I think that's why Mentour made a point of stating that they both had a good night's sleep.
Designated driver. I'm exactly that way. I'd have rather got some sleep and I'm often more alert at night. If they had been flying with someone else less responsible that night they'd be dead.
I’ve read a story about a British Royal Air Force Vulcan bomber (same generation as a B-52). That was doing a long transit from the UK to somewhere in the Middle East. The guy telling the story said, mid-route he felt a bit tired so “rested his eyes for a few minutes”, it would be ok because all the other crew would be awake. When he woke up a while later, it turns out everyone else had the same idea and they had all fallen asleep! Luckily he woke up before the Vulcan ran out of fuel.
@@notmenotme614 Wouldn't surprise me. You know the Vulcan was a hell of an aircraft. That delta wing generated a lot of lift. I'm sure they would have been able to glide to a landing.
It’s kind of sad that two good pilots lost their jobs, but it’s also kind of assuring as a passenger that the FAA doesn’t mess around.
i would have thought that a very good bollocking and assurance of sacking in case of a repeat would be enough, as they were both good pilots.
@@sunnyland3952 No, they were bad pilots. They were flying along at 500 MPH at 37000 ft, with the lives of a lot of people in their hands, making good money, and they couldn't be bothered to do their jobs. Good riddance.
it is not sad at all. they fucked around and they found out.
I think a suspension in this scenario is FAR more appropriate... Especially considering the fact that another 2 pilots who BOTH fell ASLEEP and subsequently overshot their destination were only given temporary suspensions... And i think its fairly easy to say falling asleep is way worse than what these 2 did.
Good pilots don't get so distracted they ignore their jobs for an hour and almost need to be intercepted by the Air Force while they had the lives of a plane full of people in their hands.
I've been in a similar situation (not as serious or public). The moment you realise what you've just done and what's likely to happen as a result is just awful. Your mind automatically races as you try to think of ways to fix the problem without anyone noticing but you quickly realise each one is a dead end and you just fucked up big time.
What I thought the pilots went through the moment they realized where they were. It's a wonder they were able to land the plane with that new distraction, knowing they had completely screwed up, their minds racing to come up with some excuse.
ah yeah, the "You Just Fucked Up Big Time" dimension of reality, one of the most psychedelic and mind-blowing places to be. I hope I'm done going to that place for a while.
I was on flight following in a 172 as a newly minted private pilot. I was trying to pick up ATIS on the second radio and the primary radio chatter was CONSTANT. Every time they came around to the altimeter setting, there would be chatter and I’d miss it. I finally decided to just turn down the volume (too much) on the primary radio, so I could get the info I needed. I of course forgot to turn it back up and continued along, dumb and happy. About 10 minutes later I was approaching the destination airport and hadn’t gotten a handoff. I looked down and saw the “receive” light on the radio flash on and off and realized I had the volume down. I turned the volume up and heard the tail end of “…if you can hear this transmission, please ident”. I spoke up: “I assume that was for Cessna 3557E…”
After a heartfelt apology, I received a short public dressing down on the radio, embarrassment, but no phone numbers, no fighter jets, and no loss of license. It was a learning experience though and I’ve made sure to never let that happen again!
What a scary and embarrassing moment. You won’t be the last!
Lol these atc stories are so cringe. Up here where Im at in the Northeast we take off, land and fly around for hours without speaking to atc once.
@Mike Steffen : I'd wager that 95% of pilots have a nordo story similar to yours, don't feel too bad.
While this airline crew had no credible excuse for being nordo for 90 minutes, I feel a 6 month suspension would have been more appropriate than revocation.
Side note: A few years ago I was somewhere over Louisiana at 9,500. Normally I fly IFR but it was clear blue and 22 and i was vfr. I got a hand off to Lake Charles TRSA and when I switched to the new frequency there was already a transmission in progress so I waited my turn. While waiting I was looking at something else, idr what, but after a minute or so the controller says my call sign and asks if i’m on frequency, to which I reply affirmative. Apparently there wasn't enough of an apologetic tone in my voice so he got all up on his high horse telling me how crucial it was that all aircraft in his positive control airspace check in with him IMMEDIATELY. I said "Ok, well, I'm here. " This further infuriated him and he went on for another 20 seconds or so about what a big deal his TRSA was and how much trouble he could get me into; just being a real a-hole. I told him that if he wanted to get technical, I was above the altitude limits of his trsa, not within his positive control airspace, and wasn't actually required to talk to him. This really got him livid but instead of arguing, I changed my transponder code to 1200 and kept on my merry way. At some point during his rant he must've seen my code change and realized my points were valid because he quit yapping at me.
I switched over to monitor Lafayette approach and after a while they called me up and offered flight following. They asked what happened and I gave them a brief summary. They said that kind of thing unfortunately happened quite often and offered their apologies.
I got to thinking that this kind of a scenario could have really rattled a low time private or student pilot and possibly cause them to avoid using ATC services, or even scare them into quitting. When I landed I called up the TRSA, spoke to the sup, and voiced my concerns. This is one of the very few negative interactions I've ever had. 99.9% of the time ATC is marvelous.
0
human sometimes makes mistake.. all of us
Even if distracted by their laptops, I find it difficult to believe that neither pilot had enough sense to look at the control panel every few minutes to make sure everything was okay. Or at least keep track of the time remaining until arrival. Perhaps both pilots fell asleep.
Good point. Landing at the wrong airport is easier to understand, but no one monitoring the radios? Sounds like they both dozed off. Easy to do at altitude. Surprised it doesn't happen more. Where were the flight attendants though?
Dem boys was sleeping. Delete all messages? Plus, even if your distracted by laptops, you are still on headset with people screaming, where the f*ck are you guys?!
@@teleguy5699 They had taken headsets off apparently, but the point remains that it’s a little questionable.
@@viscounttudon68 Yeah, it doesn't make sense. I've been in a lot of cockpits and that has never happened. Plus delete all by "mistake" and the CVR conveniently only had 15 minutes of recordings? Things that make you go Hmmm....
Cruise speed is 500mph, which puts 100 miles at 12 minutes.
If there were a Gold Standard for UA-cam - your channel would definitely define it! This is what we need - fabulous storytelling and visuals, no empty timing, great aftertaste. With all the info-gypsies in the web, you are adding a real value, kudos for that! Writing as a learning & development guy. Thank you!
Although Mentour Pilot is Swedish, and I’m Danish (Petter, you’ll know what I mean) his is by a country mile the best and most informative Aviation Channel that I watch!! Tack Petter, fantastisk jobb…Kollega Micke
Thank you Michael, that’s really nice to hear. 💕
Chef’s kiss 👌
@@MentourPilot Can I assume there is some friendly competition between
Swedes and Danes? Have you heard about the Whiskey War between
Canada and Denmark over who has sovereignty over Hans Island in the
Arctic? This dispute lasted from 1972 until just last year when both countries agreed to split the island 60/40, Denmark/Canada. In 1984 some
Canadian visitors to the island raised the Canadian flag, put up a sign saying Welcome to Canada and left a bottle of Canadian Club rye whiskey.
A while later the Danes responded by taking down the Canadian flag (and
folding it with respect) and putting up their own flag, a sign that said
Velkommen Til Den Danske, and leaving a bottle of Gammel Dansk.
This scenario was repeated a number of times until the agreement was
reached. I don't know who ended up with the bottles, probably the ships
Captains. So, Petter and Michael, I hope your war is as friendly as ours was.
Mentour looks Spanish
@@SnowmanN49 That's a great story. Fighting over an island by raising a flag and a glass. Very Canadian.
That all being said, the fact that it was a “personal” laptop vs. a company iPad doesn’t change the distraction potential. Ironically they were discussing company business in the cockpit.
Most ironically, the result of their prolonged discussion was to make the topic moot.
@@flagmichael Haha, they both got a really family friendly schedule afterwards...
The potential distraction of Personal vs Company electronic devices is *not* why personal devices are banned in the flight deck. It has everything to do with *hazmat* safety, as Pip mentioned.
Their personal schedules are company business? The only relevant company business for them at that time was to fly the plane safely to its destination.
The cockpit was not the place.
“Take Care Of Your Employees And They’ll Take Care Of Your Business,” Richard Branson, Founder Of The Virgin Group. I'm not in aviation but have seen how disgruntled employees gets worked up by changes at their workplace implemented by a management which doesn't care. Which leads to a workforce who doesn't care and bad things happen. We are all emotional beings. This should be on management's checklist.
Funnily enough, he sold Virgin America Airlines to Alaska Airlines and his pilots went through the same seniority merger described in this video!
You might have a point. Mergers I've experienced were all basically an announcement and then no kind of subsequent follow up (at least at my level) as to whether things were working well or not and little or no attempts at integrating teams and what should be cooperation can turn into competition.
@@NuncNuncNuncNunc Boeing and MD springs to mind leading to 737Max
@@kijana2030 Yes.
In my last job, I saw this exact situation ruin what had been a nice company to work for. You get bought up by a bigger company and all these new executives and HR people come in with their big new ideas, but all they actually achieve is destroying workplace morale and laying off experienced people.
Quite honestly I was waiting for them to look up from their laptop straight at a fighter jet!
I cant imagine forgetting that you are flying an aircraft for an entire hour. That is just bananas
As a retired NWA/DAL Airbus 320 Captain, who was actively flying the 320 at the time out of DTW, I appreciate the nice job you did of explaining an embarrassing incident. I think the "they were both asleep" theory is more likely than the bidding/laptop scenario but it doesn't really matter at this point. A terrible way to end a great career.
I think that's the more plausible scenario 😊
But they had rested perfectly the night before, plus some cockpit recording was found
What I don't understand at all is why the ATC volume was so low they couldn't hear it, did they turn it that down on purpose?
So, are the laptop stories just what the crew was giving as an excuse? Did the CVR not back up their stories (i know there was very little CVR left)? If the CVR didn’t back up their story, then I would agree that sleeping is the more likely scenario. Interesting but sad case indeed.
@@sasino According to Petter, only 15 minutes of voice reamained as they did not remove the cvr right away. Also, they had just eaten a meal and that makes you sleeeepy!
Aside: as an applied physicist I worked in a group that was engaged to "investigate" the noise level in early model 737's cockpits. One of the root causes for the noise level is the increase in mach number at cruise, with subsequent model/engine increases, from the initial design.
Cool! Thank you!
I remember when I was a kid how loud planes were flying over the house they'd rattle the walls, now you can't hear them at all it's amazing technology
I miss those loud, smoky low bypass turbofans, especially the JT8D.
¿i wonder if they could redesign the radome to lower the noise level?
There is no reason for either pilot not to hear ATC unless the volume was turned way down. Maybe they BOTH fell asleep, and figured the laptop story was a better excuse???
Not taking anything away from the pilots' irresponsible error, but there is something severely screwed up about a system where you commute hundreds or thousands of miles and many hours before you even start your workday.
It’s honestly not that bad. Imagine if that were not possible. Some locations would be over staffed. Some locations would be under staffed. And typically, a commuter pilot only adds an hour or two onto his commute. Essentially, you’re just leaving for work a little earlier. But as a pilot, you’re also not going home every night. So it’s not like you’re doing that every single day. It’s a hit or a miss. So pilots don’t mind it, some pilots hate it. Some pilots just end up moving to the city they’re commuting to, so they don’t have to commute anymore.
@@RandyMarsh-nu6lo "An hour or two" extra sounds like a major imposition of time to me -- making it so there's nothing to life but commute and work with no home/family life at all. :(
My husband had a commute of nearly an hour with one job once and we hated it because he hardly saw the kids while they were awake on weekdays.
@@mbvoelker8448 I'm assuming you probably live in an urban area? Where I live, it is not at all uncommon to have an hour or more one way commute.
@@honolulublue72 No, I live in a rural area and we work near our home. Deliberately -- because long commutes damage home life. And I stand by my original statement that there is something wrong with a system that requires hours-long commutes.
@@mbvoelker8448 I see what you’re saying. But think of it like this. You’re not traveling to work every day. You’re doing this once. Then working for 3 days (roughly). Staying in hotels in whatever city you happen to be in. Then commute back home (free of charge). Then spending the next 4-5 days (roughly) with your family before commuting back.
You should look at what happened on a Hawaiian Airlines flight form Honolulu to Hilo, Hawaii. Both pilots fell asleep and they overflew Hilo by 100 miles. They couldn't be raised on the radio. I can't remember if a fighter was sent to intercept.
This is nuts and hard to believe that conversation was so engrossing that this would have happened. The punishment definitely fits the incident, great way to show the company they are not playing around.
But there are numerous accidents covered in this channel where human failure is the reason or part of the reason for the incident, and where the person(s) responcible survive(s) the incident. And still we hear nothing about anybody being punished for it. More to say, how easy would it be to find the truth behind an incident or accident if everybody involved feared to get fired or otherwise punished? I think air security benefits a lot from that the investigations focus so much on doing things better and improve security and so little on guilt.
If you'll look out your left hand window, you will get a rare look of an F-16 interceptor with a full weapons load out. By all means, take your time. He will remain there until your study group takes a break.
You comment really made me LOL! Can you imagine?
🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
Thank you for a big chuckle on a day of terrible news!
Towing a banner that says "GET BACK ON THE RADIO NOW"
Good one!
I remember flying shortly after this incident and the pilots, as they boarded, assured everybody they weren't going to be looking at their laptops, to a decent amount of laughter among the passengers within earshot. I feel badly for the pilots on this particular flight as well and hope they have been okay since then.
I can only imagine how sick the pilots must’ve felt when they realised what happened and seen the array of emergency services on the ground upon landing. I think it was a harsh punishment
@@stephen5141 Yes, it never ends well when one or both pilots receive a "CAREER IN TRANSIT,,," Master Caution on the MCAS🤣
@@stephen5141 It's like you're sixteen and you have 20 missed calls from your mother.
I don't feel bad for the pilots. What they did demonstrated a lack of good judgment such that they should never have been trusted flying passengers in a Cessna let alone more than 100 people in an Airbus.
What these pilots did was an extremely serious breach of safety. They were damn lucky nothing more serious than a missed radio call took place.
There was at least one plane that flew into the ground because the pilots failed to notice the autopilot had been switched to descend mode.
@@stephen5141 Yes, indeed.
This is absolutely crazy! Good thing they had enough fuel to land
Geez... Just glad no trouble occurred with the plane. As a passenger, I would definitely like to know my pilots aren't distracted. Loss of license was a bit harsh and probation would have been a much better punishment and maybe crap schedules for a yr for both to teach lesson; I don't think either pilot would have ever gotten distracted again had they been able to keep their jobs.
Yep I feel like a long suspension would have given a similar message to other pilots, while ensuring these 2 would never be distracted again
Loss of licence was "harsh?" Seriously??????
NWA was a complete mess during that time period. There was friction between the ground crews and pilots. Things like leaving baggage carts in the way of gate parking, Marshallese not showing up on time etc. Pilots were also doing things like taxiing at ridiculously slow speed, even doing go arounds when it wasn’t actually necessary. Unfortunately I was a frequent flyer on NWA then because they were pretty much the only carrier out of Detroit.
👀
NW wasn’t the only boo boo Delta made. Buying Eastern was a financial disaster and an internal scandal. Getting the Pan Am international routes also took a huge toll. They went from being a much loved regional carrier to a mess. I have no problem with the expansion of the international routes, just how they did it. Management is key and it was mismanaged horribly
@@dittohead7044 do you have any idea what you are talking about? Delta didn't buy nwa OR Eastern.
@@IkLms11 lol, at least one Ryan Air pilot hanging somewhere around here. Ryan Air is a tricky operator. The flights do what they say on the tin. However for a tenner the entire plane isn’t either going to punch you, drunk or singing. If I’m stuck in a seat for hours without WiFi, I want sleep. Maybe Ryan Air should do sleeping class. At the back.
Ground crews at NWA didn't dislike pilots. Actually NWA has better systems....Delta treated their employees better
The fact that these pilots didn’t even glance at their displays to monitor the aircraft is hideous.
They got [mentally] comfortable and with comfort comes complacency. Can't do that and drive an airplane.
@@troy3456789 they showed that you are wrong. They did it quite well actually and could have kept going further than they did
Cheers
Hideous?
I don’t think it’s clear they “didn’t even glance at their displays”. It’s possible that they just didn’t look at all of them and there are a lot of screens.
I think a temporary suspension + some training would have been more appropriate than taking their licenses.
@@jamesthompson7257 By the time they run out of predefined waypoints, every display would have something abnormal on the screen. They weren't even glancing.
Way back in the '70s I was a radar/radio tech on one of the UK Weatherships that provided aeronautical services to trans-Atlantic flights - including the military.
We got to recognise pilots by their voices. American pilots often asked "Did we have any messages to pass" which occasionally was extremely welcomed when a ship's crew member had a wife in hospital.
The exception to this generosity was BA/Speedbird. They operation by the book. One night we got a call from a Speedbird flight for their usual "get the monies worth of services" and we looked for him on radar. We had direction finding equipment on board and we discovered where this aircraft actually was.
We read back the usual track and speed data which was followed by complete silence. Even in those days there were East and West bound traffic "lanes". Then we heard from the Speedbird again with the guy on the radio, in his snotty accent, suggesting "we were wrong".
Since we handled hundreds of aircraft every month we DID know what we were doing. So we repeated our speed and track routine and there was silence, again. By this time the duty electronics crew was wide awake and VERY interested in the Speedbird. He hung a "left down a bit" (*Leslie Phillips - Navy Lark) and flew about 500 miles north to his intended route. The Speedbird pilot had been sleeping.
For the rest of his cycle (and later) we always asked this pilot if he wanted to recheck our data in case he wanted to change another 500 miles.
*Leslie Phillips, a British Comedian is still with us at age 98!
I was shocked when the first laptop was pulled out and then flabbergasted when the second pilot did the same! We have to place our lives in these pilot's hands and they abused that trust. Incredible.
totally
'Shocked' and 'flabbergasted?' How did you recover?
@@mickydee7502 Ikr. What a lousy melodramatic bored-with-life chap.
I agree with you! I decided they should have been terminated as soon as I saw the 2nd laptop open!
Tell me... did you take the Corona jab?:)
The fact that you are giving us the back story about the rostering differences makes this whole situation much more real. I for one have, on several occasions, got stuck in a very interesting debate about something important and completely forgotten about lunch break. Fortunately the only one suffering from that was myself - if pilots get distracted like I do, there would be planes crashing every day lmao.
There's no way they got distracted 'talking shop' and totally fogot to answer calls from air traffic control for 90 minutes! They were either asleep or having sex.
@@glamdolly30 wtf
Anyone explain that last part? "If other part of the system would have worked and NORAD would have been dispatched they might of only needed retraining or an embarrassing
conversation with the chief"?
How does that even make sense? if NORAD gets deployed how does it make the situation any less serious? if anything I would think it would be more serious.
@@malourocha9211 My guess is that instead of being NORDO for 1.5 hours, they may have been out of communication for substantially less time, maybe as low as 20 minutes? Additionally they wouldn't have overshot their destination and the flight would have been otherwise normal. But I agree, NORAD being called in doesn't seem like a small thing.
@@glamdolly30 I think they would've been in a lot less trouble if it was just sleep or sex.
Excellent retelling of this story. I admit that I was much more cynical about the reasoning given behind missing the airport, but you have given me a new perspective and much more understanding. I appreciate the video!
Petter was very generous in this one
Nice explanation but there was no plane in the 9/11 .
Honestly, this scares me more than the stories of mechanical failure, because you can't correct human nature the way you can a faulty design. I have a terrible flu and watching your channel has been great company!
Exactly.
hope you're feeling better
Sad if they never flew again. I think these two could be trusted never to make the same mistakes again.
I think FAA went overboard and could have given a less severe penalty. Who hasn't made a mistake of inattention?
Yes - but there's a strong case in favor of sending a message to all pilots that severe attention lapses are unacceptable.
if they had a clean record up until then i think a lifetime ban is a bit harsh.....definitely a long suspension though.
They're both back flying. if you check the airman registry on the FAA's website, the FO for instance has a current 1st Class Medical from this year and a renewed ATP from 2019. I think he flies corporate.
Yeah, I think it was the going 90 minutes with no radio contact that caused them to get fired. That is an extremely long time to be distracted on any job, much less piloting a plane. It was obvious that they were so distracted that they not only missed radio calls, but other messages and displays as well; messages and displays they should have been checking regularly at that. You just can't let something like that go with a reprimand and some additional training. They were distracted for far too long.
It also means that they likely had zero clue about their fuel status or any other systems during that time.
Image if the plane had a minor fuel leak and they had to try and repeat the Gimli Glider situation because they ran out at 37,000 feet.
@@ad3z10 Agreed. Such a lapse in judgement. For all intents and purposes, nobody was flying the plane. Pretty hard to let that slide.
I have no compassion at all. I expect a minimal awareness. You should also have a sense of time and place. They are behaving like passengers not pilots. You imagine driving an autopilot car and never look out the window or your displays for 90 Minutes, when you must know you're near your destination? 90 MINUTES!!!
@@igoretski There are actually instances of people "driving" Teslas with the self-driving system and running into pedestrians because they're looking at their phones rather than monitoring the car like they should be.
Not acceptable at all, we trust pilots with our lives, and they get paid very well to do so
I was an aircraft mechanic working for a small northern airline and was sharing an apartment with a pilot with that airline. One day he told me this story.
The airline was flying into small airports and gravel strips with Navaho as well as king airs. The owner of the company didn't believe that the pilots should use auto pilot and in the 80's the auto pilots on these aircraft were very basic anyways.
So the one trip my friend was co-pilot. It was a nice sunny spring day. They were flying into the setting sun and it was nice a warm in the cockpit and with the droning of the engines and no talking he nodded off. He woke suddenly realizing that he was drowsy. He quickly checked everything on the panel and everything was fine. They were at flight level and all the engines were looking fine. They were on course for a small gravel strip at the end of the road. On the other side of the airport there was nothing until the north pole.
He looked over at the captain to see how he was doing. The captain was fully asleep with his head tilted back.
My friend realized that they had been bombing along with nothing other then that the aircraft was trimmed perfectly.
So he took over flying the aircraft. He did the descent to the airstrip and did radio calls, etc. When he extended the gear the captain woke up.
They continued to land with no other problems.
The captain and my friend never talked about it after that.
They both have now retired after good careers in the major airlines.
no you weren't. You're probably twelve...
Kelsey took a slightly less detailed swing at this incident this morning. Hadn’t seen this until now somehow. Great video Petter.
I love these videos, you tell the story in such a compelling yet matter-of-fact way, without being overly dramatic. It's so good to hear a pilot's perspective too! Keep up the good work 🙂
I’ve listened to an ATC recording of this. The number of times the controller was calling for “Northwest One Eighty Eight” and the urgency in his voice, I can’t see how they will not hear or recognise such a prominent callsign. The suspicion was that both of them dozed off. Luckily for them it took a while to approach, land, taxi and park and the CVR was overwritten.
Yes.
If they fell asleep they might've gotten away with it. 'Not sure what happened, woke to air hostess ringing' its difficult to prove they weren't incapacitated, and it is hard to punish them in that case.
@@mandowarrior123 I assume they had a decision to make between them about what to say and assumed “laptop gate” sounded more professional. Medical tests would’ve been made if they claimed incapacitation.
@@nikolaykumchev9530 I'd assume they have to prove they were on their laptops with the login history on both devises.
@@Edax_Royeaux I am sure a Union rep somewhere would’ve strongly objected to this citing privacy concerns. If they were company issued laptops you may have a point but their private computers would’ve been out of bounds. Remember the debate about cameras on flight decks. Those guys fell asleep.
I’m an airline pilot myself and there is no way that you could have a conversation about seniority or rostered schedules and overfly your destination for over 100 NM. They were obviously sleeping or incapacitated somehow.
I thought the same - but they finally reacted when the Cabin Crew called them.
100%
Yes you can Wanaco re long conversations. I flew with a CA once that started a story that lasted from MSP to TPA and finished it on the leg back to MSP.
@@jcheck6 but I bet you didn't lose situational awareness right? I agree, these guys fell asleep. The ding ding from the Flight Attendant woke them up.
@@brianbrachel4871 Nope, I was even more vigilant. These guys did not fall asleep. There was a major change on how to do a monthly bid for trips because of the recent Delta merger and they lost awareness in their discussion. In 30 years I have never seen anyone fall asleep in the cockpit.
This is a very interesting one to me especially because I and many people have been forced to use procedures or processes that businesses mandate which are overly complicated and incredibly time consuming. They might not offer training on them, in most cases they do not even provide time to do so. So I can certainly relate to that as a contributing factor though ultimately the blame lies with the pilots. "Fly the plane" is top priority and they failed to do so.
My job is full of procedures.... imagine my frustration increasing when my new boss doesn't know and or understand what these are, then accuses you of not following said procedures.....
@@queenpondue101 lol instead of banging his wife that night he could have talked about this then and just decided to fly
Thank you for handling this mental health issue with such empathy. Its a really hard subject to talk about and you did it in such a caring way. I really hope this man gets the help he needs and can start to rebuild his life. I really hope his family stand by him
My dad's a retired train engineer. He worked with a bidding system, and took control of it for a time for his co-workers (I think it was a union thing). I remember him pouring over spreadsheets. I wouldn't think you could monitor/fly an airplane while doing that XD.
Clearly you can't, lol.
I noted this on a different video regarding this incident, but it bears repeating here: The fact that the new bidding system required flight crews to read a 150 page manual to understand, in addition to attending extensive "training", it tells me that perhaps there was an issue with the way the new system was designed in the first place.
Lol that's what I was thinking too. 150 page training manual on how the rota system works? Seriously?! 😂
Important is no one was injured, as i work in health care this is essential for me. Delay of one and half hour is barely nothing, I understand the rules are very strict in aviation, but again no one was injured and that is what counts for me the most!
So, you’re ok with having a distracted pilot fly your plane as long as you were fortunate enough not to have lost your life.
Good video which really shows how close to disaster some
Flights are that nobody knows about.
So it's basically an ultimate "text and drive" situation. Even pilots with decent skills and trainings got distracted for an hour and a half and got their licenses revoked in the end, I still can't believe millions of people text while driving or glue their eyes to their phones while walking on a busy street, and think they won't cause any trouble like bumping into others.
At least this text and driving case, the airplane can fly itself. But yeah, not smart regardless
They shouldnt of even landed the passengers safely, not if the faa took away there license
I learned to text and drive at the same time and have done so for 20 years. There is a safe way to go about it, at least for me, but the statistics prove not everybody has a perfect driving record like me. Not gonna teach my son to do that. But I'm still leaning towards these pilots had their dual-core laptops hooked up with LAN for some in-flight gaming.
@@DizzyDad Maybe they were playing Microsoft Flight sim. Too busy flying their virtual plane to fly their real life plane 🤣 🤣
@@dillonyang6869 Sorry, are you suggesting they should crash the plane since the FAA was going to revoke their licences?!
Working as a tower controller I obviously won't experience a prolonged NORDO aircraft for anywhere near this long due to the much smaller airspace but I once had a 172 in the circuit go NORDO on me. Sequenced them downwind to follow traffic on final that they reported in sight. When I gave them their touch and go clearance on 3 separate occasions there was no response. At which point I used the light gun to give them a landing clearance. They did a touch and go. Luckily there was no conflicting aircraft in the downwind the next time around, tried sequencing them again to no response. They turned base and final, again with no conflicting traffic(I was keeping everyone well away by this point) and I guess they finally realized the 2nd time around they didn't have a verbal landing clearance and noticed they had turned their radio down. Instructor and student on board. The instructor told me there was lots of background chatter on the radio and he turned it off briefly to teach the student something after being sequenced and forgot he turned it off. This quite frankly shocked me. It's quite busy airspace with many aircraft around, and it's not uncommon for plans to change. Planning to turn the radio off for just 30 seconds seems like an extremely bad idea, something could happen in those 30 seconds, and you risk what happened here, forgetting about it. Teaching the student is important but I think both the student and instructor learned a completely different lesson they won't soon repeat that day.
Back in 1974 or 75, Frontier Airlines had a 727 that was supposed to land a Sheridan, Wyoming, but they accidentally landed at Buffalo, Wyoming. The Buffalo airport was actually an abandoned section of a two lane highway that was repurposed as a general aviation airport. It was a miracle that they got the plane down safely, but the plane had to be taken apart and shipped out by truck!
Keep up the good work. Your programs are very interesting and I enjoy every minute of them. You are very good when on introductions and explaining in detail of the whole event or accident. Even people like me who know nothing about flying and who are not even technical can understand exactly what happened and how aviation works including the basics how the air planes should fly. Thank you so much.👏👌🏼
Wow this incident is just… bizarre. It’s hard to believe two experienced pilots both lost awareness for an entire 91 minutes studying bidding system. Can’t stop thinking maybe something else was also at play.
A pilot's roster and how it affects their personal life is one of the most believable reasons I can think of to cause such a distraction..
Yeah, I fail to understand why people look for conspiracies where there are none. This explanation makes complete sense to me. Occam’s razor.
What conspiracy? Isn’t falling asleep a easier and more reasonable explanation? If cross checking 2 laptops, the pilots should have peripheral awareness during much of the 91 minutes. I believe critical thinking. No one cares about conspiracies.
@@michaelspiano2022 again, I truly believe the conversation they were reported to be having would have engrossed them to the point of losing a sense of time and how long they had been conversing. It's far more believable than the idea that they both fell into a deep sleep at the same time etc..
@@squiggleworks9 Occam's Razor is that they fell asleep
It is unbelievable for anyone on any schedule in any situation to be this distracted for 90 minutes, without even a cursory glance at the instruments. 90 minutes to discuss a bid system? How complicated could this be? Even getting high or drunk, they would sober up before 90 minutes.
i have adhd and i can’t even imagine being distracted for that long lol
They were obviously sleeping
I was there. I'm amazed at how well you understand the issue and how you presented. Nice job.
That’s one way to resolve resolve scheduling issues. Great video
I feel bad for those pilots as well. It was a chaotic and frustrating time in their company and it clearly shows the lack of employee support at the time. Nevertheless, it's such a serious and dangerous event they caused. However, the whole industry likely learned a lot from this event and it probably prevented another crew from doing the same thing accidentally, possibly with a worse outcome. Just wish there could have been a better outcome for the 2 pilots.
This was the best outcome possible for them considering the circumstances. In the majority of other cases getting that distracted in the air = certain death
I actually agree. I mean I know it shouldn't have happened but everyone was safe, no one at any given time was in danger. Pilots have gotten away with far worse than missing the runway. It's sad that people have made such horrible comments about those pilots who didn't do it out of arrogance. If there had been any danger then I'd get it but pilots have put their crew and passengers in danger plenty of times and have either ki!!ed them or or just did some crazy stuff and still didn't get fired. These guys miss the runway and BOOM💥 GONE.
Is this really the whole truth? I’ve been flying for 47 years and have been distracted and even nodded off, but to miss 90 minutes of a flight? That’s quite the “ distraction “
I can’t even comprehend it - there are so many “automatic” things you’re checking as a pilot, to just kinda mentally flip a switch and stop checking ALL of them is beyond bizarre. Actually it’s beyond bizarre for one of them, but BOTH?!?!
thought that too, but say you were assigned to fly with another pilot you'd never met before, but they were the same age, had a very similar family and living arrangement, had worked for the same amount of time and all, had the same recent trouble at work with system changes, basically just another you. you'd both have so much to say and it'd all be interesting and relevant.
You even nod off when I am telling my amazing stories... :-(
When you're deeply wrapped in a conversation, the amount you lose track of time can be frightening. I've actually talked to someone for 2 hours and it felt like 10 minutes.
Yeah, I'm calling bs. They both were snoozing.
They fell asleep...it is as simple as that. Their "explanation" of "being engrossed with their iPads figuring out their schedules", I believe was an attempt to save their jobs (it failed anyway). As a retired 757/767 Captain, I can relate to them being so tired that they both fell asleep. I routinely had 6 am take offs out of EWR going back to my domicile of SFO. That's a midnight wakeup California time, 3 am wakeup in NYC, to be at EWR Flight Ops at 5 am. A few days later, I would LAND at 6 am in EWR after flying the all-nighter out of SFO.
As long as the company gives you the FAA required crew rest, they don't care how tired you are when you get that zero-dark thirty wake-up call. I have often wondered why the 6 am takeoffs on the east coast weren't given to East Coast crews, when able...but I know it would be a scheduling nightmare and an impracticable way to run an airline. There is no easy answer to fighting circadian rhythms, especially on the long-haul international flights, besides melatonin to fall asleep the night before and coffee to stay awake during the flight. I am surprised this sort of thing hasn't happened more often.
Why aren’t the over seers more aware of
The sleep time needed
to maintain safety of flight??? That seems so
Dangerous.
I bet it’s all about MONEY!
I have my respectful doubts. Being overworked and exhausted, thus inadvertently falling asleep is by far less of an offense than deliberately distracting yourself doing something explicitly prohibited. Who in their right mind would try to say "oh, I definitely wasn't passing out, I rather intentionally violated the rules and endangered everyone" in their own defense? I'd definitely go the other way around.
I was a kid in Minneapolis in the 90s and early 00s. Seeing that NorthWest plane brought me back.
I find it concerning that the military hadn't taken action for 90 minutes. I'm also skeptical about two pilots both becoming completely oblivious to their environment. Part of me believes these guys fell asleep and were too ashamed to admit it. They knew they were cooked and perhaps felt a "distraction" was a more dignified way to fall. Anyway, great episode. Thanks for the fabulous content. Cheers!
Yes.
This is the most likely scenario!!!
Too bad the Interceptors didn't take off. The fighter pilots would've seen those two airline pilots sleeping in their comfy chairs. And this episode must've been then rewritten completely!
They probably would've gotten away with it though. And you'd set an alarm. If they are asleep, they just claim incapacitation for unknown reasons, came to by crew call.
@@mandowarrior123 'incapacitation for unknown reasons' effectively translates to "I fell asleep", and there's no way they could've gotten away with this. They knew their licenses would be revoked, and I suspect one or both pilots were counseled by an attorney before they deplaned. IMHO, they were asleep. Listen to the ATC. Their callsign was broadcast repeatedly and urgently over and over and over. How could TWO conscious pilots ignore auditory, visual and vestibular cues for 90 minutes? Didn't they see the sun setting? It's very hard to swallow their distracted explanation. They must've been hypnotized.
well falling asleep would be considered as 'incapacitation', which is not as bad as actively ignoring your duties for over 90 mins.
and also if you do need to sleep, the other pilot has to remain at the control. (there are rules for taking breaks and getting rest)
but this was just criminal negligence, because the pilots were awake and pulled out their laptops, completely neglecting to fly the aircraft even though they were explicitly not supposed to do so.
I love how you build the background of the flight, which gives better context to the situation. These videos serve as teaching tools for pilots like me!! Thank you for such in-depth analysis!!
Unbelievable…. Distracted is an understatement!
The animation of the planes scraping together and sparking everywhere was so unexpected that I laughed out loud 1:19 😆
My dad is a Delta pilot, and I vividly remember the merger with NWA. It was a hot freaking mess. Luckily, my father was on an aircraft that NWA pilots were banned from bidding on for five years after the merger, so it didn't affect him personally tooo much. There also wasn't a ton of crossover as far as airframes...the fleets were quite different. For a set amount of time after the merger, they kept pilots and FAs from each airline together on crews, so a Delta pilot wouldn't be flying with NWA and a Delta FA wouldn't be flying with an NWA FA. It was still quite contentious though. This incident definitely didn't help.
This was the most thorough and fair explanation that I've seen on this. Kudos.
I guess time really does fly by in the cockpit. At first I was amazed by that some people managed to create a new bidding system, without someone responsible saying "Stop, a 150 pages long explanation is too long, go back to the drawing board." But then the rest of the event started to unfold, and I'm quickly getting more baffled than amazed.
150 pages is small ! they probably outsourced the document. I worked for a large Japanese company they out sourced a document for a equipment loan system 400 pages came back, that no body read!
@@rods6405 And again, Lapphund is right. 150 pages is too long, and when others are longer, its even more rediculous. People who write texts almost always only focus on correctness (if even that) and don`t think of people reading it.
PBS blows and no way to know if you are screwed out of seniority.
I love how the videos in this channel are about explaining the facts happening in the world that affected the incident, especially the airlines merging and changing in the pilots routines. I'm happy that this is not about a fatal accident 🙏
Thanks for sharing this 👍 I am not into flying planes at all, but I find all CRM related issues very interesting. This situation could totally happen at the office, especially when debugging or coding is involved. Maybe a missed meeting. But in the cockpit that is another matter...
Imagine how the pilots must have felt when they realised what had happened 😱
I feel like losing their licences was a bit harsh given their previous good records, but it also seems like they weren't completely honest about what had happened, and tried to hide the fact that they'd been on their laptops. I'd expect a pilot to pull the CVR breaker after an incident like this for a start.
Then again, the fact they lost their licences creates an incentive for people to try to cover up similar incidents in future... I'm not sure that was the right decision, but I don't think I'm sure it was the wrong decision either.
So you’re not sure if anything? That doesn’t add to the thought process at all
Cheers
THEY WAS ON MORE THEN THEIR LAPTOPS YOU DONT SUPPOSE TO BE USING THE INTERNET WHEN HUMAN LIFE IS AT STAIE SUCH AS FLYING A JUMBO JET
Dunno, they were both doing something they explicitly weren't supposed to and then lied about it. I wouldn't trust them flying again after that either. You need to be able to trust the pilots to do their jobs and to accurately report stuff. Things that go wrong and don't get reported properly can have consequences far beyond just them
@@MrGoesBoom I'm sure they would never do it again, everybody can learn, and they were good pilots. It's a loss really, and happened only for deterrence.
@@tomdavis3038 certainty usually limits discussion rather than contributing
Though I feel sorry for the pilots , it was indeed a dangerous event as the plane could have run out of fuel , crashed into another plane / terrain ( even though it may be improbable). Though unintentionally the pilots were guilty of negligence which put life's of 144 passengers and crew at risk.
Northwest is also to be blamed for not creating avenues where employees like pilots could get repeated sessions to clarify their doubts related to new procedures.
Agree totally. I feel that they should have had to undergo pilot retraining rather than lose their employment.
Ran out of fuel? Possibly. But can’t crash into terrain at 37K ft. Also TCAS system would prevent them from crashing into other planes. Besides, the ATC can see what path they are taking and would clear other planes from their path whilst they are NORDO
@@love9876ful the flight could have started banking into an irrevocable bank or could have lost altitude or gained altitude leading to stall , during unknown loss in altitude it could have rammed into a private plane which may not have advanced avionics , strayed into flight path of military jets - as I said these are impropable but not impossible 🙂
@@dimitrz2000 they are using autopilot so irrecoverable bank or stall are pretty slim too. Even if it happens the sound of autopilot disengage would notify the pilots
@@yuitachibana8829 hmmm you are thinking like that because you don't know the complexities of an airline cockpit . Anyways this discussion would go on and on . Even I feel sorry for the pilots , but the million dollar question to ask ourselves is - Would you be okay with this incident if you were one of the passengers on the flight ?
VERY USEFUL VIDEO, THANK MENTOUR PILOT, HAVE A GREAT DAY.
Graphics are over the top. Petter's storytelling and knowledge are what makes this channel special. No need to illustrate every sentence with animation that probably takes a lot of time and/or money to produce.
Excellent item. I’m a 777 driver. The travelling public are given an insight into some of the things that have significant impact on a pilots life. If you haven’t already I’d love you to cover the Buffalo DHC8 disaster, which exemplifies this.
With regard to headsets, flying long haul it can be exceptionally uncomfortable to be on headset for very long periods of time, especially in remote areas where there is no (or very little) comm anyway.
With regards to ACARS ‘ping’ all I’d say is that despite the triple-7 having a very distinctive (and quite loud) ‘ping-pong’ chime for ACARS, I can quite happily sleep through it if I am on seat rest (which is allowed/essential in our SOP). This tells you something about the importance of alertness on the flight deck, as well as SA. An alert chime may have prevented this incident, but as hard as it will be for a non-com pilot to understand, one becomes very good at filtering out things from the hearing, especially if distracted.
Frequent cabin crew checks (every half an hour) help to ensure that everyone is in the loop; typically while such a check is going on if I am PF then I’ll have a ‘sweep’ if I don’t feel I’ve done so in the previous minutes.
Although personal PEDs can be a distraction (and get caught in the wrong places!) PEDs are on the flight deck more and more - for example iPad electronic flight bags. I don’t believe prohibition is the solution.
So what are some ways to mitigate this in your own operation:
1. I avoid ‘deep’ conversations in the flight deck. Politics, religion, Union - if you feel passionately about something that’s best saved for the hotel.
2. Ensure I break whatever I’m doing frequently. I typically set the clock if it’s not in use, just so I have an idea how long it’s been since I last looked at it.
3. Do the PLOG. I frequently track the plog for fuel and time, to check winds and make sure we don’t have a leak. I’m not a once a pager even on long routes.
4. Talk to your CC. We spend time with them down route anyway so perhaps it’s easier long haul, but I want them to feel involved and engaged. You never know when they might save yer ass, besides I need regular coffee (which I’ll go out and make if it breaks things up).
5. Be suspicious. I like to verify things against my expectation. There are times when I’ve lost SA and admitting it means the other pilot can re-orient you quickly.
I’m not perfect. But becoming engrossed in something that isn’t flying the aircraft is asking for trouble on the flight deck. That includes minor problems, the crossword, in depth conversation. Recognising when this is happening is part of self-awareness that is extremely important.
Ultimately it’s the first rule of flying: fly the damn airplane!
To you point, the captain of MH370 apparently was heavily involved in politics and may have been influenced in some way by events leading up to the flight. Probably will never know. Egypt Air 990 May have been influenced by religion.
how do u drive a plane
@@kgaming7599 Pretty easy, only three things to know: 1. Push the stick forward and the houses get bigger 2. Pull the stick back and the houses get smaller (although if you keep pulling eventually they get bigger again) 3. The AP button engages the autopilot.
@@grahamsalmons2027 that flying/piloting not driving
@@kgaming7599 for those in the business, slang for a pilot is a ‘driver’. Slang for a Boeing 777 is a ‘triple’. I am a triple driver. Apologies if my use of in-lingo caused any confusion
Always a good day when there's a new Mentour Pilot video and always professional and informative.
Happy you liked it!! See you over on Patreon later!
Indeed is
Thanks for the excellent video as always. Please cover Batik Air BTK-6723 whereby both cap and 1st officer took naps for 28 mins, went miles off course on autopilot and nearly sending their planes past the island of Java.
Very scary incident. They completely stopped listening to any comm warning them of weather, proximity of other aircraft etc. What if there had been traffic with collision possibilities in their path.
Investigation findings from Wikipedia:
On October 27, 2009, the FAA grounded the pilots. The FAA found that Cheney and Cole were out of radio contact with air traffic controllers for more than an hour and a half "while you were on a frolic of your own." It cited the pilots for acting in "total dereliction and disregard" for their duties, and were "disengaged and impervious" to the danger their actions posed to themselves, the passengers and the crew. Among other things, the FAA found that the pilots failed to comply with air traffic control instructions and clearances and failed to monitor the plane's radios. The FAA found that the pilots operated the plane in a careless and reckless manner, and thus showed that they lacked "the degree of care, skill, judgment and responsibility" to hold a pilot's license. The incident and subsequent investigation have led to some changes in the rules for cockpit crew and air traffic controllers.[
Fire their asses!!
@@samsongomah1318 The airline did.
Yes.
The scary thing is that to people on the ground, this would look very similar to a case like Helios Airways Flight 522. The plane can generally keep itself flying until it runs out of fuel even if everyone is unconscious.
It just happened again, a cessna crashed into the baltic sea
During that time, I worked security at MSP Minneapolis. Every day I boarded a bus with crews going to work. My job was to check security badges. Moral was horrible.
I was working for NWA at the time in crew scheduling for flight attendants. We were across the street from the Humphrey Terminal at MSP. I was working that night, but didn't have access to ACARS and didn't work directly with that crew. Everyone was pretty tight lipped about it, mostly due to not knowing anything.
I'm just surprised that the mode reversion 3 clicks didn't knock them out of their discussion when they reached the end of the STAR. Its pretty distinctive.
Many NWA 320's to my recollection didn't have the triple click back then.
@@bretthansen4773 Oh, didn’t know that this was a relatively new feature. Thanks for the info.
This one is just extremely funny to me. I can't imagine what it must have felt like when the pilots realized. I lost it when the ACARS messages were deleted, I still don't know what to make of that.
My mum had much the same thing happen to her when she wanted to show me the photos of my brother's graduation (which I couldn't make) and ended up deleting the whole lot by mistake. There should be a two-step process for deleting things, IMO.
That part was interesting to me, too. I guess either (1) they were so stressed by that time that they accidentally pressed the wrong button or (2) it seemed like a solution to start covering their tracks.
The fact that cockpit voice recorder breaker was not pulled open after the landing seems fishy, too.
That goes along with the cockpit recording being deleted.
@@MikkoRantalainen Yes, indeed.
@@Teverell yeah, some systems I've worked with really have NO take backs, and you're always one step from ruining everything. Why would anyone design it like thaT? I really can't imagine how someone would think it was a good idea to have a delete all button that's a single press.
For a non-aviation example, I have a laptop with a special function key in the top right of the keyboard. this function key is directly adjacent to both the PrtSc key and the - key on the numpad.... what does it do? .... it turns off the laptop. Yes, really. a simple press sends the laptop into sleep mode.... and you can accidentally hit it while typing.
I live in the Dominican Republic. All of a sudden I find myself watching your videos. I am an accountant but Ive always had fascination on the aviation industry, crazy...they also help with my english 😜love your videos as well as your accent ☺ Thanks
The autopilot in the meantime is covering for her two pilots, keeping the plane safe and stable. And she knows that flight comfort is important and that she has been designed to be quiet and efficient, so she doesn't even interupt them in their conversation when the boss is on the line. Until eventually she gets slightly passive-agressive out of boredom when the last waypoint passes "Well, you haven't been talking to me for hours now, I'll just keep going and turn off all the fancy colours on your displays until you notice me again or I run out of food!"
Great video. As a former Northwest Airlines employee I had seen other videos on this flight, but your video was by far the most complete explanation of the events including the DL/NW merger that influenced the events in the air. The old image of the Northwest Airlines Building A headquarters building in Eagan Minnesota with the logo on the roof made me smile. I worked in the NW corporate real estate "drafting" department and the three of us in that department did the layout of the roof logo in chalk to give the painting crew the outline. The logo is actually a slight ellipse, not a circle so it wasn't as simple as using a rope circled around a point. Of course, it was 1991 ish when the Landor logo was introduced so no lasers and the like we would use in 2022. Side note, NW Building A has been torn down along with the NATCO Simulator building and the entire NW campus is now the NFL Minnesota Vikings training complex.
Awesome to hear that feedback. Thank you so much for sharing the story! 💕
Cool story Tom. They sure moved a lot of dirt for the Viking's facility.
What this story illustrates to me is the incredible pressure and distress that workstress can cause.
FINALLY someone pointing RELEVANT AND IMPORTANT dimensions to this story; the vast majority seem to be in TOTAL LACK OF EMPATHY which is MONSTROUS and contributes to such events. Typical horrific humans.
For all those saying how terrible it was that these pilots were fired. You seem to miss the point that PEDs were NOT allowed in the cockpit for ANY reason. So, not only did the captain take his laptop out, the FO did also. What if the plane hit turbulence? The laptops were in front of them. How quickly could they have gotten them out of the way and take control before it was too late? They knowingly broke the rules that put the entire flight in peril.
This video is very interesting even though I knew the story from media coverage.
Mentor Pilot really adds a lot of interest to every story 🙂