Using John Darko's example for 'Damping' I came across those little door stops at the Dollar Store. I bought 6 of them (their entire stock that day) for CDN $26. (I know, Dollar Store, right). My system now looks like a miniature NASA / Oil Refining Storage facility. Sounds better for sure. Next to room treatment, this was the low cost Bees Knees for sound improvement !! My wife confirmed to me that I am "over the top with this stuff". She really is wonderful !
You don't need to dive into spending megabucks to damp your cases. I have used marble slabs the type used for kitchen cutting boards for many years. They cost peanuts and come in all sizes to suit equipment. I use sorbathane spaces between these and the kit. Very cheap tweak.
VAC goes the extra mile when it comes to vibration but then we talking about ridicule prices. I'm using a 3 kg iron nuts from an old steam locomotive, also bricks of soapstone.
I have just added door stoppers to my CD, preamp, power amp, tuner - as recommended by John Darko. I heard details on CDs I have owned for years that I had never heard before. Amazon door stoppers - available in silver or black. All the best, Rob in Switzerland
I guess the manufacturer is attempting to address microphony which (as you said ) is something Naim put so much effort into addressing. If so, why didn't they just say so in their blurb? But that then begs the question as to how you can "over reduce" microphony? If it's not microphony they are trying to fix then what is it?
If you want to go down the psychoacoustic route, do interval and functional ear training. You'll hear relationships and lyrics you haven't heard before. There's no point in having a high-end system if you have a poor musical ear.
This concept can work in certain specific situations, e.g. a high gain phono stage or a tube preamp where circuit mircrophonics come into play. Otherwise it's simply a case of hearing what it says on the box, or what the seller/manufacturer suggests - a known, well researched human failing. £140 is dirt cheap for this type of tweakery though so nobody should get too vexed. On recordings, agree 100% - don't stick to hi-fi demo discs to evaluate kit. Quincy Jones 'The Dude' and the like are so well mastered they can make a cheap soundbar sound like hi-fi :)
I think it is much cheaper to unscrew the top cover and stick some sound dampening insolation (that they put in cars, like Noico) on the inside of the cover, of course not in front of the ventilation. I have tried this and the covers are death silent 👍
Fantastic video Phil. I am on an extremely tight budget being off work with the long Covid but I do like to experiment with my modest hifi to get the best out of it. I use cheap stick on sorbothane from eBay as isolation under my equipment and my speakers are on home made stands that cost less than £50 to make all of which made a large difference to the sound. Other comments on this post suggest budget ways to make weights that sound like great ideas without breaking the bank so I am looking forward to giving it a go. Perhaps when I return to work I will be able to afford the purpose designed items but for now I will have to make do.
Hi Tony! Long covid hifi-guy here as well. A kind of budget tip I want to give you is diffusion panels on the wall behind the speakers. I bought a set of 6 t.akustik wave eps for around 80€ total from Thomann, you will not believe how much of a difference this makes for imaging. Also, the weight-thing really works. Currently have 5kg (in two 2,5kg weights for dumbbells) on top of my Bluesound Node and it helps focus a lot. Lastly, since you mentioned your long covid. Breathing exercises morning and before bed has transformed my life. If you haven't tried it, do. Have had a good routine for over 6 months now. It's the way out of this hell.
@@filipviljamaasvensson unfortunately it’s not just my lungs that were affected but my heart, kidneys and liver. One massive bonus is I am still here when it killed two of my lifelong friends and also an aunt so I count myself as lucky. I can’t put anything behind my main speakers as space is tight and they sit in front of my CD racks but I have a second smaller system with Gale gold monitors sat on my bookcase on top of isolation pads. These work and sound very well. They have rear facing ports so I could try your tip with these.
@@tonyjedioftheforest1364 I wish you all the best in recovering. Something happened to my nervous system, so now I'm on a medication for that. But as you say we are still here. Good luck with tweaking your sound :)
Hi Tony and Filip, try taking 30,000IU vitamin D3, magnesium, cod liver oil, zinc, a multivitamin and minerals tablet, fresh fruit juice such as orange and Dandelion leaf extract every day to help you recover from long Covid and stay healthy unless you are taking immune suppressants. Avoid any more experimental Covid vaccines if you have taken any.
I don’t own a hifi capable of resolving these sorts of effects, so I can’t speak from experience. Nevertheless my natural tendency is towards skepticism in most circumstances. A current moving though a vibrating wire will generate a magnetic field. This could potentially induce a current in some other component. However, the vibrations of internal components would be tiny - presumably this would only be of any significance where we are dealing with tiny signals - for example in a phono or microphone pre-amp.
I am open minded about such products. However, the much cheaper alternatives mentioned in the comments may do just as good a job. Also, it seems strange that mid to high end equipment is not sufficiently dampened when you consider the cost involved. On the subject of what recordings to use when auditioning equipment, I always listen to recordings of varying quality as my view is that it’s how the system conveys poor recordings that is the biggest challenge.
Given that I've tested and accepted that devices that isolate components, and (linearize) clean power supply made/make a difference I'm willing to accept that some strange items can make a difference. That said, I'm sort of on the Roy Gandy team here though. If price is a factor engineering will always be a compromise. The real question, then is: Do these upgrade items actually offer value for money given the compromises already inherent in my living/listening room and in my system?
Hi sir Hifi by its very nature is subject a lot of influences , internal and external . I suppose it is down ultimately to how good your hearing is , especially when you get to these more extreme tweaks . I’m a grate believer in a solid base for my equipment , so I use peace’s of granite that finish being dumped after new kitchen installs . It’s surprising how much is wasted when they cut out for sinks etc . I always find these videos of Phils interesting and totally respect his tack on the many aspects to the hobby 😀👍👍👍
I'm not certain if people's hearing varies much. It's the eternal question. Are Tin Ears deaf or is it their attitude? At least with myself I've learned to always trust my ears first. I found an image on the internet of the 6 statistically most ear canals in humans. One poor group has an ear canal with a very small opening leading into the ear drum chamber (whatever it's called). That would go a long way to explaining some things.
For what it’s worth. People that attack others for how they spend their money have serious mental issues. Anger management is in dire need in most cases. And most certainly therapy. And I’m not just saying this, repeating it, or trying to dig at them. I used to be that way myself. I was also a drug/alcohol addict. But since I’ve gotten sober, and been in therapy. I’m fine. And I tend to feel bad for people like that. For many reasons. And it’s a lot easier to deal with people like this. When you realize this, and can have a little empathy for them. Just sayin. ✌️
I have many Turntable Record Clamps/Weights which I use to good effect which cost me nothing in experimentation as I have them for my Turntable anyway and they look pretty Cool on top of my equipment.
whatever the science behind all of this is or if only this is your private snake oil... if your music sounds better... its a win be sure i will try different weight on my systemparts and when it makes me belive that it sounds better it will stay on...
Not expecting you to read this, but on the off chance... Agree on the "angry 1%", I would also add the 2% outright rude!, I just delete and block them, life's too short to give them attention. It may be an idea if you think the 1% may target a particular video, to just block all comments on that video. I'm in the process of trying some weight lifting weights on my Kralk Audio TDB6 speakers, no idea if they will make any difference, but to me tweaking is part of the fun. 😉 Jim 🏴 ☺
Statistically you need at least 100 comments to get an angry one in the mix, assuming the 1% ratio is correct. We are below 15 as I write this. I think we will be OK with the angry comments this time around. As for rude comments, that's up to the reader to get triggered and everyone has his, her, its, they, them, our, ze, own trigger point.
I believe you when you say you heard a difference, but I'm not convinced this isn't just the psychological effect of "wanting" to hear a difference? Would love to see someone start a UA-cam channel whereby listeners are put in a listening room and then components (cables, interconnect, isolation platters...etc) are swapped in/out without listeners knowing what, if anything at all, was changed. Then testing 10, 20, 50, 100 people and seeing if "audiophiles" are any better than an average person at detecting changes or if it's simply a placebo effect.
Please go to audio science review for an explanation of the psychological effects that explain this kind of stuff. I don’t in any way doubt your sincerity or honesty but in the end you hear what you want to hear.
is the molecules in electronics interacting with electrons, they all vibrate and have a resonance frequency just like human have. how much does that dampener brick weigh??
Are you suggesting I put a heavy object as the one you show and will cover a third of my mostly top screened amp will not affect the dynamics of the amp?
Back in the 99's WHF used to recommend a heavy book or 'brick' to dampen cd players. I've never tried it personally probably because a brick or book imo would look strange. However could be tempted to try one. Will it be on your website?
I tried a granite place matt which weighs about 3lbs on my Cyrus Stream XP2 QX Streamer which has a PX-R connected to it. I have my system running through an Audioquest Hurricane High Current Mains cable and Matrix 2 mains conditioner. It gave the music a deeper, richer more detailed bass.
@@engjds now I have an AudioQuest Niagara 3000 with a AudioQuest Hurricane High Current power cable with a Synergistic Purple fuse with another AudioQuest Hurricane High Current mains lead with a Synergistic Orange fuse in my power amp as well. The bass depth, definition, detail, and realistic 3D soundstage is off the scale.
@@andyrenorocks Those look good, hope they sound as good, but I bet all that cable nonsense cannot be detected if I were to blindfold test you on them.
Given caps are certainly microphonic (i've come across a couple of shockers) and thinking what the acoustics must be like in a metal box, I can sort of see this...... though Housebrick+black paint+rubber sheet would be a cheap experiment. I did line my diy amp enclosure with thin mdf bonded to deaden it (I did increase ventilation.... )
@@engjds Capacitors can have a microphonic effect - witnessed most startlingly in a preamp module I had. I'm not thinking of valves! It must be dependent on application and type of course.
@@engjds My worsed experience of this was with electrolytics. On looking it up 'Film caps (with) soft dielectric... can be microphonic due to vibration... moving the plates of the capacitor.'
The weight causes a low frequency resonance, which "damps" higher frequencies. The best example is a car engine - it vibrates a low revs, but becomes rigid at higher frequencies. Due to the flexibility of the rubber mounts. All electrical components will have electrical frequencys at mechanical vibration frequencies, it's how cartridges and speaker work!
In the 80's I had a Thorens 316 turntable. My steri gearwas stacked on a coffee table eith a 25" TV beside it, the turntable sat of a milk crate that was about the right height. That was convenient but because this is a 100 year old house the floor has some spring to it which made that TT sensitive to foot falls. The store bought solutions were pretty dear and i wasn't sure which was right for my situation. Some of these solutions used air suspension so I tried an experiment using a 10" inner tube. That Thorens weighs about 16# and I found a lightly inflated inner tube did a great job isolating ,t turntable for about $4 out of pocket. Good stuff cheap
Using John Darko's example for 'Damping' I came across those little door stops at the Dollar Store.
I bought 6 of them (their entire stock that day) for CDN $26. (I know, Dollar Store, right). My system now looks like a miniature NASA / Oil Refining Storage facility.
Sounds better for sure. Next to room treatment, this was the low cost Bees Knees for sound improvement !! My wife confirmed to me that I am "over the top with this stuff".
She really is wonderful !
You don't need to dive into spending megabucks to damp your cases. I have used marble slabs the type used for kitchen cutting boards for many years. They cost peanuts and come in all sizes to suit equipment. I use sorbathane spaces between these and the kit. Very cheap tweak.
What kind of kit?
@@Dr.reese_UBR3 preamp, power amp, phono amp, dac, cd transport - anything with a case.
Well yeah, we know it's stereo gear. I think he's asking what brands and models.
Save yourself the money and buy a doorstop from Amazon for £8 which will do the same job.
I use a solid stainless ALDI door-stop that has a rubber base and rubber ring around it. It actually LOOKS like an expensive HiFi accessory ;)
John Darko has promoted these - mainly I think to weigh down lighter items to prevent the cables pulling them around.
I do as well!😀🤟🏻
Yep. Metal door stops weighing 1kg available from ebay for £7. Look pretty good too.
Me too - I got all black door stoppers for about 22 Euro for four. I feel they bring out more detail. All the best, Rob in Switzerland
Many manufacturers back in the day would dampen the inside of the cases with sorbothane sheet which was always beneficial.
Guess you can still do that, but higher priced items usually have thick aluminium panels so might not make much difference there.
VAC goes the extra mile when it comes to vibration but then we talking about ridicule prices.
I'm using a 3 kg iron nuts from an old steam locomotive, also bricks of soapstone.
I have just added door stoppers to my CD, preamp, power amp, tuner - as recommended by John Darko. I heard details on CDs I have owned for years that I had never heard before. Amazon door stoppers - available in silver or black. All the best, Rob in Switzerland
I guess the manufacturer is attempting to address microphony which (as you said ) is something Naim put so much effort into addressing. If so, why didn't they just say so in their blurb? But that then begs the question as to how you can "over reduce" microphony?
If it's not microphony they are trying to fix then what is it?
Microphony only occurs on tubes or turntables, not semiconductors SMH.
Alternatively you can just buy a round metal doorstop for £10 and spend the £150 you save on music.
I have a nice heavy glass paperweight on my Exposure XM CD player. Looks good, does the job. Great videos, thanks Phil :0)
If you want to go down the psychoacoustic route, do interval and functional ear training. You'll hear relationships and lyrics you haven't heard before. There's no point in having a high-end system if you have a poor musical ear.
This concept can work in certain specific situations, e.g. a high gain phono stage or a tube preamp where circuit mircrophonics come into play. Otherwise it's simply a case of hearing what it says on the box, or what the seller/manufacturer suggests - a known, well researched human failing. £140 is dirt cheap for this type of tweakery though so nobody should get too vexed.
On recordings, agree 100% - don't stick to hi-fi demo discs to evaluate kit. Quincy Jones 'The Dude' and the like are so well mastered they can make a cheap soundbar sound like hi-fi :)
Tried it. I think it's pure placebo
Were you and your customers blind folded? If not then move along.
Of course not, they listen with their ears and light wallets.
I think it is much cheaper to unscrew the top cover and stick some sound dampening insolation (that they put in cars, like Noico) on the inside of the cover, of course not in front of the ventilation. I have tried this and the covers are death silent 👍
Hi fi record review offered this as a tweet back in the 80’s covered wood vinyl felt on the base
Fantastic video Phil. I am on an extremely tight budget being off work with the long Covid but I do like to experiment with my modest hifi to get the best out of it. I use cheap stick on sorbothane from eBay as isolation under my equipment and my speakers are on home made stands that cost less than £50 to make all of which made a large difference to the sound. Other comments on this post suggest budget ways to make weights that sound like great ideas without breaking the bank so I am looking forward to giving it a go. Perhaps when I return to work I will be able to afford the purpose designed items but for now I will have to make do.
Hi Tony! Long covid hifi-guy here as well. A kind of budget tip I want to give you is diffusion panels on the wall behind the speakers. I bought a set of 6 t.akustik wave eps for around 80€ total from Thomann, you will not believe how much of a difference this makes for imaging. Also, the weight-thing really works. Currently have 5kg (in two 2,5kg weights for dumbbells) on top of my Bluesound Node and it helps focus a lot. Lastly, since you mentioned your long covid. Breathing exercises morning and before bed has transformed my life. If you haven't tried it, do. Have had a good routine for over 6 months now. It's the way out of this hell.
@@filipviljamaasvensson unfortunately it’s not just my lungs that were affected but my heart, kidneys and liver. One massive bonus is I am still here when it killed two of my lifelong friends and also an aunt so I count myself as lucky.
I can’t put anything behind my main speakers as space is tight and they sit in front of my CD racks but I have a second smaller system with Gale gold monitors sat on my bookcase on top of isolation pads. These work and sound very well. They have rear facing ports so I could try your tip with these.
@@tonyjedioftheforest1364 I wish you all the best in recovering. Something happened to my nervous system, so now I'm on a medication for that. But as you say we are still here. Good luck with tweaking your sound :)
Luckily we had Ivermectin, pity the corporate media, including youtube, hid it's efficacy for jab profits.
Hi Tony and Filip, try taking 30,000IU vitamin D3, magnesium, cod liver oil, zinc, a multivitamin and minerals tablet, fresh fruit juice such as orange and Dandelion leaf extract every day to help you recover from long Covid and stay healthy unless you are taking immune suppressants. Avoid any more experimental Covid vaccines if you have taken any.
All depends on the manufacturing product some build better than others and make heavier insulated boxes,this is a very boring video 👎🏼
I don’t own a hifi capable of resolving these sorts of effects, so I can’t speak from experience. Nevertheless my natural tendency is towards skepticism in most circumstances. A current moving though a vibrating wire will generate a magnetic field. This could potentially induce a current in some other component. However, the vibrations of internal components would be tiny - presumably this would only be of any significance where we are dealing with tiny signals - for example in a phono or microphone pre-amp.
your biggest internal component is usually the transformer-which vibrates the most.
Damping works but absolutely no need to pay stupid money to achieve it.
Plenty of cheap ways to experiment.
I am open minded about such products. However, the much cheaper alternatives mentioned in the comments may do just as good a job. Also, it seems strange that mid to high end equipment is not sufficiently dampened when you consider the cost involved.
On the subject of what recordings to use when auditioning equipment, I always listen to recordings of varying quality as my view is that it’s how the system conveys poor recordings that is the biggest challenge.
Well if you are going to do this, then at least make them pyramid shaped, and preferable made of some quartz stone.
I know you’re taking the piss, but the idea is that whatever you put on top of the equipment is very heavy.
I use a stack of not resonant damping layers aka a book.
Given that I've tested and accepted that devices that isolate components, and (linearize) clean power supply made/make a difference I'm willing to accept that some strange items can make a difference. That said, I'm sort of on the Roy Gandy team here though. If price is a factor engineering will always be a compromise. The real question, then is: Do these upgrade items actually offer value for money given the compromises already inherent in my living/listening room and in my system?
Good point. A real consideration.
What would they think of next to dig the last penny out of your wallet ?
Stacking your units dampens them free of charge!
Also never tip them upside down, the electrons fall out.
Hi sir Hifi by its very nature is subject a lot of influences , internal and external . I suppose it is down ultimately to how good your hearing is , especially when you get to these more extreme tweaks . I’m a grate believer in a solid base for my equipment , so I use peace’s of granite that finish being dumped after new kitchen installs . It’s surprising how much is wasted when they cut out for sinks etc . I always find these videos of Phils interesting and totally respect his tack on the many aspects to the hobby 😀👍👍👍
I'm not certain if people's hearing varies much. It's the eternal question. Are Tin Ears deaf or is it their attitude? At least with myself I've learned to always trust my ears first. I found an image on the internet of the 6 statistically most ear canals in humans. One poor group has an ear canal with a very small opening leading into the ear drum chamber (whatever it's called). That would go a long way to explaining some things.
For what it’s worth. People that attack others for how they spend their money have serious mental issues. Anger management is in dire need in most cases. And most certainly therapy.
And I’m not just saying this, repeating it, or trying to dig at them. I used to be that way myself. I was also a drug/alcohol addict. But since I’ve gotten sober, and been in therapy. I’m fine.
And I tend to feel bad for people like that. For many reasons. And it’s a lot easier to deal with people like this. When you realize this, and can have a little empathy for them. Just sayin. ✌️
The case will vibrate. Just try touching it gently with 2 fingertips while playing music.
Differences can be perceived as improvement. I put an angry nun and Dinosaur on top of my speakers, and my cats avoid them like the plague.
I have many Turntable Record Clamps/Weights which I use to good effect which cost me nothing in experimentation as I have them for my Turntable anyway and they look pretty Cool on top of my equipment.
whatever the science behind all of this is or if only this is your private snake oil... if your music sounds better... its a win be sure i will try different weight on my systemparts and when it makes me belive that it sounds better it will stay on...
Not expecting you to read this, but on the off chance...
Agree on the "angry 1%", I would also add the 2% outright rude!, I just delete and block them, life's too short to give them attention.
It may be an idea if you think the 1% may target a particular video, to just block all comments on that video.
I'm in the process of trying some weight lifting weights on my Kralk Audio TDB6 speakers, no idea if they will make any difference, but to me tweaking is part of the fun. 😉
Jim 🏴 ☺
Statistically you need at least 100 comments to get an angry one in the mix, assuming the 1% ratio is correct. We are below 15 as I write this. I think we will be OK with the angry comments this time around. As for rude comments, that's up to the reader to get triggered and everyone has his, her, its, they, them, our, ze, own trigger point.
@@hugobloemers4425 oops! Missed out know - it-alls, apologies. 😉😀
@@hugobloemers4425 what a load of crap. (See what I did there?) 😀
@@OriginalgEd you trying to trigger me? 😉
I believe you when you say you heard a difference, but I'm not convinced this isn't just the psychological effect of "wanting" to hear a difference?
Would love to see someone start a UA-cam channel whereby listeners are put in a listening room and then components (cables, interconnect, isolation platters...etc) are swapped in/out without listeners knowing what, if anything at all, was changed. Then testing 10, 20, 50, 100 people and seeing if "audiophiles" are any better than an average person at detecting changes or if it's simply a placebo effect.
Never tried it, but heard they are good. Maybe one day I’ll dip in. Ta!
Please go to audio science review for an explanation of the psychological effects that explain this kind of stuff. I don’t in any way doubt your sincerity or honesty but in the end you hear what you want to hear.
If you want to hear a difference you will hear a difference!
Sorry but this is the flat earth society, you need to be next door in the 'I am not a moron room"
is the molecules in electronics interacting with electrons, they all vibrate and have a resonance frequency just like human have.
how much does that dampener brick weigh??
More than a few electrons down worry.
Are you suggesting I put a heavy object as the one you show and will cover a third of my mostly top screened amp will not affect the dynamics of the amp?
Oh I see now, I think. I guess you can disregard first question. I only have the cambridge xax35 anyway.
I suspect HRS would argue it's the combination of the weight & composite rather than just the weight.
Good review, nice tweak, a little lengthy but I believe it has merit.
Tweeks
Side thought; some folk love Crown P.A. amps for their hifi - does the sloppy glue gunning of components in these reduce microphony?
Back in the 99's WHF used to recommend a heavy book or 'brick' to dampen cd players.
I've never tried it personally probably because a brick or book imo would look strange. However could be tempted to try one.
Will it be on your website?
I tried a granite place matt which weighs about 3lbs on my Cyrus Stream XP2 QX Streamer which has a PX-R connected to it. I have my system running through an Audioquest Hurricane High Current Mains cable and Matrix 2 mains conditioner. It gave the music a deeper, richer more detailed bass.
I bet it did )
@@engjds now I have an AudioQuest Niagara 3000 with a AudioQuest Hurricane High Current power cable with a Synergistic Purple fuse with another AudioQuest Hurricane High Current mains lead with a Synergistic Orange fuse in my power amp as well. The bass depth, definition, detail, and realistic 3D soundstage is off the scale.
@@andyrenorocks More importantly what speakers do you use?
@@engjds Qln Reference HD II
@@andyrenorocks Those look good, hope they sound as good, but I bet all that cable nonsense cannot be detected if I were to blindfold test you on them.
Tweak. Haha.
I only come here for the laughs now, Mr Rega is nuts.
Maybe "Tweakology"?
What size and weight is the one your using please?
You have heard nothing of what has been said in this post.
1.1lbs worth of magic beans from the enchanted forest
Given caps are certainly microphonic (i've come across a couple of shockers) and thinking what the acoustics must be like in a metal box, I can sort of see this...... though Housebrick+black paint+rubber sheet would be a cheap experiment. I did line my diy amp enclosure with thin mdf bonded to deaden it (I did increase ventilation.... )
Caps are not microscopic, you are getting confused with valves.
@@engjds Capacitors can have a microphonic effect - witnessed most startlingly in a preamp module I had. I'm not thinking of valves! It must be dependent on application and type of course.
@@robh9079 What type of capacitors?
@@engjds My worsed experience of this was with electrolytics. On looking it up 'Film caps (with) soft dielectric... can be microphonic due to vibration... moving the plates of the capacitor.'
The weight causes a low frequency resonance, which "damps" higher frequencies. The best example is a car engine - it vibrates a low revs, but becomes rigid at higher frequencies. Due to the flexibility of the rubber mounts.
All electrical components will have electrical frequencys at mechanical vibration frequencies, it's how cartridges and speaker work!
Love your videos…..👍👏
Hi, I use doorstops on some of my small gear (SA Link II & ifi Neo iDSD), mainly to stop them moving about. Might try them on some other kit.
snake oilery
This channel isnt for normal people like ypurself, Rega guy will have them buttering their mains cables next.
In the 80's I had a Thorens 316 turntable. My steri gearwas stacked on a coffee table eith a 25" TV beside it, the turntable sat of a milk crate that was about the right height. That was convenient but because this is a 100 year old house the floor has some spring to it which made that TT sensitive to foot falls.
The store bought solutions were pretty dear and i wasn't sure which was right for my situation. Some of these solutions used air suspension so I tried an experiment using a 10" inner tube. That Thorens weighs about 16# and I found a lightly inflated inner tube did a great job isolating ,t turntable for about $4 out of pocket.
Good stuff cheap