You literally just saved my life. I've been so scared to write drum parts for a jazz combo piece - this video gave me kind of everything I needed to know, thank you!
Brilliant! Thank you! Doing a TON of arrangements for a ship gig, and I need to hand the drummer the parts and make it easy on him. This is exactly what I was looking for.
Great stuff Elliot. Kind of like the (K.I.S.S.) method - Keep It Simple Stupid. I learn something every time I watch your videos. Keep it coming. Thanks.
Fantastic. I feel like it's everything I need to know - it wouldn't be everything but it feels like it. A guy could spend years trying to learn this stuff, well I'm 78 so I did spend a lifetime without youtube looking for this stuff.
Funny anecdote for you: I giggled when I heard that drummers are used to reading crummy notation, because it is SO TRUE. I remember when I was younger and playing with my local orchestra, I filled in as a drummer for the older folks' band. Except they had no sheet for drums, and it was all old style music, like waltzes and marches, and old songs and such. So my chart was a clarinet part for all of the pieces. It was funny, but it really taught me a lot on how to accompany a band without a proper sheet :) as long as the form is clear, drummers will play anything!
I sometimes ask for the alto or tenor sax part instead of the drum part. Often a drum part is just lots of bars with slash notation. The sax part will have all the same song navigation but you can sometimes pick out the horn stabs, if they are not written on the drum part…
Meant to write earlier. This is so clear, Eliot! Like being in a really smart class. I think I can do slashes and repeat bars perfectly!! (Will also try to follow conventions.)Thanks!!
Great! Speaking as a drummer, I think you speak the truth! There's a few aspects of drum notation I disagree with, or would like to see slightly tweaked - but as far as things stand, this is really the definitive guide :-)
@@PandemoniumBigBand Oh, the stem direction debate is a can of worms, and one that I'm thinking about doing a video about myself (on my “real” channel, this is my incognito one...) ;-) Keep up the good work, these videos are great. Very precise and to the point, not bloated, and fun as well. :-)
@@PandemoniumBigBand That would be this one ;-) No tutorials or lesson as of yet, only drumless tracks for drummers to use when practicing. Not getting many views, though... :-)
Thanks, man! I'm working on my first big band arrangement and your videos have been super helpful. I'm not a drummer, so will be coming back to this when I get to the drum line!
DUDE! frikin amazing video bro that helped me SO much. The example parts were money! Tryna to write a big band chart in a day, and you just gave me the keys I needed.
Great stuff Elliot! There are several schools of thought where the ride and HH should sit on the stave. I've seen Tim Davies and Peter Erskine both showing other systems. I tell my students to indicate with text at the first measure what they want and then just be consistent. Open any working band's drum book and see what they have to deal with!
Thanks Elliot, this whole series is very helpful! It would be awesome if you can make videos on what to write for the other members of the rhythm section.
E line kick drum is a typically used when a drummer has two kicks. F is the right kick E is the left. I’ve also seen it used for “sticking” (footing?) when using a double pedal. Most of these are usually not issues for a big band but still. Also even when I write for double kick honestly I put it all on F.
The assignment of ride and hihat lines (F line and G space, respectively) is standardized in Norman Weinberg’s book, the same way it is shown in this video. But I much prefer to reverse them, for two reasons. 1. The ride cymbal is physically higher than the hihat, and since the notation scheme for the drums is based more on location than pitch, it make sense to follow the same approach in order to keep things intuitive. 2. Because of the typical setup, it is rare for drummers to play the hihat in unison with the small tom tom. It is very common to play the ride in unison with the small tom. Placing the ride note on the F line makes it difficult to notate in a stack with a note on the E space. But on the G space, it is easy and visually clearer. This is why I submit that the accepted standard is poorly chosen.
Your videos are so helpful and clear. It’s certainly given me a lot more “tools in my tool box”. I especially appreciated your approach on how to work with non harmonic tones. I listened to all of your video’s and wrote down a tone of notes which I utilize. You need to write a book on arranging maybe even a workbook where we follow your directions and you show what the correct method should look like later in the book. I learned a lot from a well know arranger’s work book like this, but I think your ideas are fresh and could fill in a lot of information missing in other methods. Since I started studying your methods I did another Big Band arrangement and am so happy with the way it turned out. I can’t wait to have my guys play it. Thanks so much for taking the time to do these.
Valuable video! I just had a drummer record a part that I had written and I learned, the hard way, about providing details. I had specific snare only parts written which ended up being played on cymbals, toms, and just about every other drum other than snare. Such a waste of time!
Thanks Jamie! Also… Go Bruins! Can I get an 8 clap?! For anyone reading this: Jamie is an accomplished percussionist who happened to also be a band-mate of mine when we both played in the UCLA Marching Band many, many years ago!
@@PandemoniumBigBand Haha! You took me to my first NAMM show forever ago. Go Bruins. And shameless plug: check out my latest vid on my IG for star wars day: @jamie.strowhiro I should probably upload it to youtube too
Very cool and very helpful. One question: In the first bar of Two For One, why did you write a quarter notes on the offbeat? I would prefer an eight note for offbeats, especially in fast swing music.
Another fascinating, informative and entertaining tutorial: thanks so much. For those of us who have to use 'Sibelius' to demo work: could you list which fonts you've found seem to play back drum sounds well and which don't?
Nice, Elliot. Agreed, that with a pro drummer, "guidelines" are nearly always better than trying to notate everything. (especially since drummer's setups vary so much, in both the amount of instruments, and their tone)
Here's a question. On say a 2:30 to 3:30 minute song, trying to stick to the 4 bars per line idea, about how many pages does that end up being for the drummer?
On most drum parts there are long stretches without figures. In that case, I've has as many as 16 bars in a system. The parts usually end up being just 2-3 pages.
@@PandemoniumBigBand I just choose Print->Individual parts and leave that one out. I also add (and omit printing) an acoustic guitar chord-realized staff to play Freddie-Greene-style chords so i can hear if I've gone off track.
Are you looking at the chart in the left pocket? In Sibelius, you can add a system break by clicking a bar line and hitting ‘enter’. The. You have to grab an invisible square to the right of the bar, and drag it to the left to add that large indent. I hope that helps!
Hi. Don't know if anyone else has had this problem but when I print out the download for writing drum parts , from the link, the page doesn't print properly. Stuff appears to be missing. Some blank pages come out and some partially printed pages come out. Could you upload again? By the way, these are very helpful videos. Thanks!
Good information! I like the thought that the drummer knows more about his part than the typical composer. I’ve gotten scores where the composer can only fit four complicated grooves per line, every 32 note notated (unreadable), and a couple of scores with two pages of slashes starting at the first measure. Neither very helpful.
“Drummers are used to reading crummy parts” - Absolutely! Not only are the parts often incorrectly or badly written, but sometimes the composer is not quite as good and playing drums as he or she thinks they are 🙄 Some composers who write parts for schools write really good drum parts and write everything out in full. Dave Wolpe can be very good. Other arrangers know they aren’t too hot at playing drums and just write a loose guide and leave it up to the drummer to interpret as he wishes, which is also fine. The worst ones are the guys in between who try to write out a full part - and they can’t actually play drums at all which often result in a complete car crash.
Cassowary would be easier for a drummer to read as 16th notes in 4/4, because then what sounds like a bar of 4 beats would actually look like a bar of 4 beats. It is easy to get lost when it takes two bars to write what sounds like one. The page looks like cut time but the music doesn’t sound like cut time. The trade off is that this would require the wind players to read more 16th notes.
Another great "Deutsch Mark." I noticed the "repeat previous two measures" mark. Do you ever use the four? I was told to stay away from both of those. Also, do you always put rehearsal marks at the beginning of a system?
I rarely use the repeat 2 measures mark. That example may have been the only time I've ever used it in a big band chart! I've never used the repeat 4. I try to always put the rehearsal marks at the beginning of the system. Occasionally there is a clearer solution... or a good reason to break the rule. For example, if I can make a big page turn happen during a rest, then the following page might have a rehearsal mark in the middle of the first system.
Absolutely place those rhythmic accentuations from the band on that G line. So much easier to see. Also, tell me what type of accent that section might have - it changes how I may both set it up, and emphasize it. And please refrain from ever writing out an exact tom fill you want (“yep, it’s another boring waterfall-down-the-toms fill”). It may not fit that moment of that performance, and I likely ain’t gonna follow it anyway.
Yep, guilty as charged! because I like my music notation software to 'help me along' during the writing I forget to simplify the drum part before I give it to him. Fortunately my drummer listens to the mp3 to get the feel and then ignores what I've written. ps my software programme is FREE including all updates.
I’m pretty sure MuseScore can do anything Finale and Sibelius can do. I use Sibelius mostly because I’ve been at it for a long time and I am comfortable with the keyboard shortcuts, etc.
Great info in all your videos. Is there a way of turning off the back ground music as I find it very distracting when your talking and imparting all this great information in your videos?
I think this is a pretty good guide, but your example having a "Latin (straight)" section REALLY confused me. You spent the video talking about standard notation, legibility, and comprehending what the composer wants, and yet you chose to write in a direction SO vague that it's almost incomprehensible. And I know "latin" jazz is a thing, but even within that there are many different NON-INTERCHANGEABLE grooves, and writing just "latin" is falling in line with a culture that loves to assign stereotypes to latin-american people like me. People using music from latin america is super FLATTERING. I'm all for it. But you better learn how things work before making a chart as such. Cheers!
Sorry to have offended! I certainly didn’t mean to imply that there is one “Latin” groove or that all music with South American origin sounds the same. There is definitely a jazz Latin groove that is very standard in the Los Angeles scene (the only music scene I can really speak about). It is a straight 8th’s jazz-samba. It is NOT a really authentic Latin groove, but it is a musically satisfying and useful feel. Perhaps I should start using a better and less offensive name for it, like “Jazz-Samba”. I really don’t want my sheet music to offend anyone.
@@PandemoniumBigBand oh none taken, it's just a pet peeve of mine. I think it's generally just annoying to me as an ARRANGER, because knowing the variety it almost feels like you're holding YOURSELF back you know? You have so many grooves to explore, which I know you can make killer stuff with as an arranger like yourself.
![Lp. Сердце Вселенной #60 РОЖДЕНИЕ ЛОЛОЛОШКИ [Финал] • Майнкрафт](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/YoR0pAV9FVQ/mqdefault.jpg)
You literally just saved my life. I've been so scared to write drum parts for a jazz combo piece - this video gave me kind of everything I needed to know, thank you!
I love that vibraphone in Gingerlily! Piano/mallets guy myself. (I subscribed and like all your videos btw.)
Thank you! Nick Mancini wrote the song. Super talented musician.
Brilliant! Thank you! Doing a TON of arrangements for a ship gig, and I need to hand the drummer the parts and make it easy on him. This is exactly what I was looking for.
Glad it helped!
Great stuff Elliot. Kind of like the (K.I.S.S.) method - Keep It Simple Stupid. I learn something every time I watch your videos. Keep it coming. Thanks.
beautifully explained as always Elliot, thanks so muchs for sharing, now my drummer doesnt have to cry everytime I give him his sheet
My pleasure! Let me know how it goes!
Fantastic. I feel like it's everything I need to know - it wouldn't be everything but it feels like it. A guy could spend years trying to learn this stuff, well I'm 78 so I did spend a lifetime without youtube looking for this stuff.
Really want to learn how and when you make the special effects for wind instruments,like shake,fall,doit and so on
"Rhythm slashes" vs "hits" - I'm learning things! 🥁
Funny anecdote for you: I giggled when I heard that drummers are used to reading crummy notation, because it is SO TRUE.
I remember when I was younger and playing with my local orchestra, I filled in as a drummer for the older folks' band. Except they had no sheet for drums, and it was all old style music, like waltzes and marches, and old songs and such. So my chart was a clarinet part for all of the pieces. It was funny, but it really taught me a lot on how to accompany a band without a proper sheet :) as long as the form is clear, drummers will play anything!
I sometimes ask for the alto or tenor sax part instead of the drum part. Often a drum part is just lots of bars with slash notation. The sax part will have all the same song navigation but you can sometimes pick out the horn stabs, if they are not written on the drum part…
Fantastic, as always!!!! Thank you.
Meant to write earlier. This is so clear, Eliot! Like being in a really smart class. I think I can do slashes and repeat bars perfectly!! (Will also try to follow conventions.)Thanks!!
thank you very much, it was very helpful!
I am so glad!
Great! Speaking as a drummer, I think you speak the truth! There's a few aspects of drum notation I disagree with, or would like to see slightly tweaked - but as far as things stand, this is really the definitive guide :-)
Thank you! There are definitely a few more things I could have covered… stems up, down, etc. but overall I think I covered the basics at least.
@@PandemoniumBigBand Oh, the stem direction debate is a can of worms, and one that I'm thinking about doing a video about myself (on my “real” channel, this is my incognito one...) ;-) Keep up the good work, these videos are great. Very precise and to the point, not bloated, and fun as well. :-)
What is your channel? I bet anyone interested in Drum Notation would also be interested in your content!
@@PandemoniumBigBand That would be this one ;-) No tutorials or lesson as of yet, only drumless tracks for drummers to use when practicing. Not getting many views, though... :-)
Even though I myself am a Jazz Drummer, I’m glad that I could find this video, I can’t ever write good parts.
Great Stuff, Elliot. THanks so much.
You are very welcome! Keep watching
Thanks, man! I'm working on my first big band arrangement and your videos have been super helpful. I'm not a drummer, so will be coming back to this when I get to the drum line!
Good luck. Getting your first chart finished and read will be SUPER rewarding.
I am writing a big band piece at the moment, and this is really helpful. Thank you :)
DUDE! frikin amazing video bro that helped me SO much. The example parts were money! Tryna to write a big band chart in a day, and you just gave me the keys I needed.
You have no idea how much i thank you for this!!!!
You are very welcome. Thanks for watching. Glad to help.
You are amazing! Thank you for these videos
Great stuff Elliot! There are several schools of thought where the ride and HH should sit on the stave. I've seen Tim Davies and Peter Erskine both showing other systems. I tell my students to indicate with text at the first measure what they want and then just be consistent. Open any working band's drum book and see what they have to deal with!
Agreed. I spoke with Tim Davies at length about my drum parts a number of years ago. He’s a great resource.
Definitely gonna think on these :D Thanks as always Elliot!
Congrats again on the 10k subs!
Thanks Elliot, this whole series is very helpful! It would be awesome if you can make videos on what to write for the other members of the rhythm section.
Good idea. I will definitely do those sometime
I got out some manuscript paper and took notes. Your approach is really enlightening and easy to follow.
Great stuff, Elliot. This is going in my growing library of drum references. Thanks so much.
Ooh... is that a public playlist. If it is, feel free to post a link.
Thank you Elliot!
You are very welcome. Spread the word!
E line kick drum is a typically used when a drummer has two kicks. F is the right kick E is the left. I’ve also seen it used for “sticking” (footing?) when using a double pedal. Most of these are usually not issues for a big band but still. Also even when I write for double kick honestly I put it all on F.
Thanks again! And, thanks for the references. Good stuff.
Glad I can help.
The assignment of ride and hihat lines (F line and G space, respectively) is standardized in Norman Weinberg’s book, the same way it is shown in this video. But I much prefer to reverse them, for two reasons.
1. The ride cymbal is physically higher than the hihat, and since the notation scheme for the drums is based more on location than pitch, it make sense to follow the same approach in order to keep things intuitive.
2. Because of the typical setup, it is rare for drummers to play the hihat in unison with the small tom tom. It is very common to play the ride in unison with the small tom. Placing the ride note on the F line makes it difficult to notate in a stack with a note on the E space. But on the G space, it is easy and visually clearer.
This is why I submit that the accepted standard is poorly chosen.
I agree, much easier to have hi-hat on the F line and ride above. Seems logical, somehow. Quite common to find on actual drum charts, too.
Love this video. Thank you!
Your videos are so helpful and clear. It’s certainly given me a lot more “tools in my tool box”. I especially appreciated your approach on how to work with non harmonic tones. I listened to all of your video’s and wrote down a tone of notes which I utilize. You need to write a book on arranging maybe even a workbook where we follow your directions and you show what the correct method should look like later in the book. I learned a lot from a well know arranger’s work book like this, but I think your ideas are fresh and could fill in a lot of information missing in other methods.
Since I started studying your methods I did another Big Band arrangement and am so happy with the way it turned out. I can’t wait to have my guys play it.
Thanks so much for taking the time to do these.
Valuable video! I just had a drummer record a part that I had written and I learned, the hard way, about providing details. I had specific snare only parts written which ended up being played on cymbals, toms, and just about every other drum other than snare. Such a waste of time!
Oh no! The nightmare scenario!
Excellent video - thanks!
Thank you for watching!
This was great! I agree with everything said. haha
Words are your friends and numbers indicating phrase lengths for the win!
Thanks Jamie! Also… Go Bruins! Can I get an 8 clap?!
For anyone reading this: Jamie is an accomplished percussionist who happened to also be a band-mate of mine when we both played in the UCLA Marching Band many, many years ago!
@@PandemoniumBigBand Haha! You took me to my first NAMM show forever ago. Go Bruins. And shameless plug: check out my latest vid on my IG for star wars day: @jamie.strowhiro
I should probably upload it to youtube too
Very cool and very helpful. One question: In the first bar of Two For One, why did you write a quarter notes on the offbeat? I would prefer an eight note for offbeats, especially in fast swing music.
Man this helped so much. Less ink=less stink
I love that! Less ink = more stink. Brilliant!
Another fascinating, informative and entertaining tutorial: thanks so much.
For those of us who have to use 'Sibelius' to demo work: could you list which fonts you've found seem to play back drum sounds well and which don't?
Nice, Elliot. Agreed, that with a pro drummer, "guidelines" are nearly always better than trying to notate everything. (especially since drummer's setups vary so much, in both the amount of instruments, and their tone)
For jazz band, the only time I will write a more detailed part is for beginning level charts… Elementary/middle school jazz band. Thanks for watching!
Here's a question. On say a 2:30 to 3:30 minute song, trying to stick to the 4 bars per line idea, about how many pages does that end up being for the drummer?
On most drum parts there are long stretches without figures. In that case, I've has as many as 16 bars in a system. The parts usually end up being just 2-3 pages.
Have subbed!
I'm not sure, how do you chose between slashes with hits or rhythm slashes?
Discovered these videos last night and have already watched them all. Some twice! Can you make some on arranging for smaller ensembles?
Wow. Thank you! Definitely. I’ll put that on my list.
I wind up writing two drum parts in Sibelius, one for the drummer and one for playback. a PITA, but so far, no relief.
I’ve started doing that too. You can even hide the “play back only” staff on your score by using the “focus on staves” command before printing.
@@PandemoniumBigBand I just choose Print->Individual parts and leave that one out. I also add (and omit printing) an acoustic guitar chord-realized staff to play Freddie-Greene-style chords so i can hear if I've gone off track.
thank you for this video, this is very helpful! would you be able to do similar videos for the other rhythm section instruments? thanks!
Yes. I’ve got one in the works!
How to write drum parts: don't. 😂
That being said, great video.
At around 10:31, you briefly show a part with a really interesting system break - how do you do that!?
Are you looking at the chart in the left pocket?
In Sibelius, you can add a system break by clicking a bar line and hitting ‘enter’. The. You have to grab an invisible square to the right of the bar, and drag it to the left to add that large indent. I hope that helps!
@@PandemoniumBigBand thank you!!
Thank you for a great lesson. As a drummer, how can I get a few of your drum charts to practice along with your amazing band?
what Big Band VST would you recomment for writing using a Sequencer/Score? Thanks.
I don’t have any recommendations yet, but I am getting a brand new VST for review soon, so hopefully I’ll be able to recommend it.
Hi. Don't know if anyone else has had this problem but when I print out the download for writing drum parts , from the link, the page doesn't print properly. Stuff appears to be missing. Some blank pages come out and some partially printed pages come out. Could you upload again? By the way, these are very helpful videos. Thanks!
So Nice!, Elliot what´s the computer program that you´re using to write the charts?
Good information! I like the thought that the drummer knows more about his part than the typical composer. I’ve gotten scores where the composer can only fit four complicated grooves per line, every 32 note notated (unreadable), and a couple of scores with two pages of slashes starting at the first measure. Neither very helpful.
Yes and yes!
“Drummers are used to reading crummy parts” - Absolutely! Not only are the parts often incorrectly or badly written, but sometimes the composer is not quite as good and playing drums as he or she thinks they are 🙄 Some composers who write parts for schools write really good drum parts and write everything out in full. Dave Wolpe can be very good. Other arrangers know they aren’t too hot at playing drums and just write a loose guide and leave it up to the drummer to interpret as he wishes, which is also fine. The worst ones are the guys in between who try to write out a full part - and they can’t actually play drums at all which often result in a complete car crash.
You said it!
Solid
Cassowary would be easier for a drummer to read as 16th notes in 4/4, because then what sounds like a bar of 4 beats would actually look like a bar of 4 beats. It is easy to get lost when it takes two bars to write what sounds like one. The page looks like cut time but the music doesn’t sound like cut time.
The trade off is that this would require the wind players to read more 16th notes.
Yes. I always choose to make the part easier for the maximum number of players. 13 brass/wind OR 1 drummer
Another great "Deutsch Mark."
I noticed the "repeat previous two measures" mark. Do you ever use the four? I was told to stay away from both of those.
Also, do you always put rehearsal marks at the beginning of a system?
I rarely use the repeat 2 measures mark. That example may have been the only time I've ever used it in a big band chart! I've never used the repeat 4. I try to always put the rehearsal marks at the beginning of the system. Occasionally there is a clearer solution... or a good reason to break the rule. For example, if I can make a big page turn happen during a rest, then the following page might have a rehearsal mark in the middle of the first system.
Hi!
What program or app can I use to write hits on the top of the slash bars?
Sibelius is the app that I use. But any of the other engraving apps will work too: MuseScore, Finale (legacy), Dorico…
@@PandemoniumBigBandThank you very much!
I downloaded MuseScore and it works grate.
Absolutely place those rhythmic accentuations from the band on that G line. So much easier to see. Also, tell me what type of accent that section might have - it changes how I may both set it up, and emphasize it.
And please refrain from ever writing out an exact tom fill you want (“yep, it’s another boring waterfall-down-the-toms fill”). It may not fit that moment of that performance, and I likely ain’t gonna follow it anyway.
Yep, guilty as charged! because I like my music notation software to 'help me along' during the writing I forget to simplify the drum part before I give it to him. Fortunately my drummer listens to the mp3 to get the feel and then ignores what I've written. ps my software programme is FREE including all updates.
I’m pretty sure MuseScore can do anything Finale and Sibelius can do. I use Sibelius mostly because I’ve been at it for a long time and I am comfortable with the keyboard shortcuts, etc.
Hahahaha “I’m a shill for google” miss ya man - and thanks for this video, these are great! xoxo
Thanks AJ! I was just thinking about you. Let’s hang sometime!
Hi
First to like 😁
Also 2nd (and 1st) to comment!
Lol
Great info in all your videos. Is there a way of turning off the back ground music as I find it very distracting when your talking and imparting all this great information in your videos?
Watch my latest video
I think this is a pretty good guide, but your example having a "Latin (straight)" section REALLY confused me. You spent the video talking about standard notation, legibility, and comprehending what the composer wants, and yet you chose to write in a direction SO vague that it's almost incomprehensible. And I know "latin" jazz is a thing, but even within that there are many different NON-INTERCHANGEABLE grooves, and writing just "latin" is falling in line with a culture that loves to assign stereotypes to latin-american people like me.
People using music from latin america is super FLATTERING. I'm all for it. But you better learn how things work before making a chart as such.
Cheers!
Sorry to have offended! I certainly didn’t mean to imply that there is one “Latin” groove or that all music with South American origin sounds the same.
There is definitely a jazz Latin groove that is very standard in the Los Angeles scene (the only music scene I can really speak about). It is a straight 8th’s jazz-samba. It is NOT a really authentic Latin groove, but it is a musically satisfying and useful feel.
Perhaps I should start using a better and less offensive name for it, like “Jazz-Samba”. I really don’t want my sheet music to offend anyone.
@@PandemoniumBigBand oh none taken, it's just a pet peeve of mine. I think it's generally just annoying to me as an ARRANGER, because knowing the variety it almost feels like you're holding YOURSELF back you know? You have so many grooves to explore, which I know you can make killer stuff with as an arranger like yourself.
Would be perfect without background music.
Check out my more recent videos about piano and bass parts and let me know if you prefer silence in the background.
First to like 😀