Dude you were so right about the "I've already put in the grind, I don't need to prove anything anymore" I've been gaming since I was a kid, I already did a lot of stuff, miss me with the bullshit please.
Roguelikes for me at least are arcade games with formulas you can memorize instead of levels. They're like playing Pac-Man or Megaman with more variety baked in. Treating them like a Main course when most of them are designed to be honey roasted peanuts might be what's holding you back from enjoyment? At least I'm not the type to play more than a Megaman games' worth of a roguelike in a sitting. Then again I also actively enjoy things that are difficult where progression can be measured in dexterity rather than a finish line. Megaman replays are good because you yourself GET good at them, same as Devil May Cry, Monster Hunter, and Roguelikes. With boredom only ever setting in if I'm already past full completion AND specifically forcing myself to keep going instead of playing them to play it.
This is the valid message that I was seeking. I am so frustrated by every modern game taking elements from Roguelikes that I have serious fatigue from it and I can't be the only one.
As someone with adhd as soon as i see Rougelike, I just take a 180 and go the other way because i just get impatient. You die. You have to start from 0, so many hours are gone Also, it seems a lot of indie games are rouge likes now and that dissapoints me because im missing out on so many games
@@phryd After finally beating a run, I quickly got bored. I was just like...Ok, so it's just more of the same but with some added optional challenges and cut scenes. I think I'm good, actually.
idk why but Hades never gets boring to me ever. I think maybe bc I'll do 2 runs at the most and jump on a major triple A game, spend the rest of the night playing that. I don't play Hades for hours on end, that would make me get bored.
You hit the nail on the head. These games feel like grind for the sake of grind for me. Something in my head just doesn’t see the point and I wind up moving on super quickly.
I can enjoy rogue likes but most of them depend on bad game design. Hades is probably most polished and best designed rogue like followed by Slay the Spire but even these have flaws especially Slay the Spire (terrible RNG, same cards every start, wasting time first 1-2 acts just cuz game tells you to beat it again). You can definitely make rogue likes work. You can add progression better and enforce weapon/card variety and have more interesting level designs. Most of them are lazily designed and that’s the core issue
Actually lol'd at 5:30. I totally related to the end section where you talked about replaying the same SNES games and renting games on the weekend. Times have changed so much!
"You just play for enjoyment" - is there a better reason to play? 😅 I believe that your point is about games in general and your preference for games with a clear story; you can switch the word "roguelikes" in the video with a lot of other genres and the video would work the same. Roguelikes are structured with this loop: play - die - learn - repeat. They're difficult games, once you play a lot of those this difficulty decreases a bit, but you'll always find something difficult in this games. And that's part of the fun! Try to always improve, look for tougher challenges after you complete the game with difficulty modifiers etc. You don't have this chance in other genres. I'm a super fan of Ori, it's the first game that took me in the amazing journey in the Indie world. It has a wonderful plot, but after 20 hours the game is done. I played twice and with 40 hours or so, I know I won't play it again. It's a good memory for me, but it's over now. I'll be able to play "The Binding of Isaac" in the next years without problems, even if it was released a long time ago. "I've already put in the grind, I don't need to prove anything anymore" - and that tells me you're not against the genre's structure, simply you already experienced a lot this kind of game structure. I think you didn't continue enough Hades, because it's super clear when the 2 main acts of the story end. Btw Hades has one of the most interesting plots I ever played even considering other games. A lot of those games have a clear ending; the main difference is that you can continue the game after that and enjoy it anyway. I agree that a lot of roguelikes are not story-driven, but there are so many roguelikes subgenres that it's impossible to generalize this way. Playing Dead Cells for 20 hours it's definitely not enough to have that strong opinion. 😅 And there's an ending even if it's difficult to reach (I wasn't able to do it still). So what I take from this video is: roguelike is not a genre for you. They don't suck by definition. I really appreciated the effort on your side though since from the video it seems you played a lot of different games to express these ideas. Oh and even if I really like roguelikes, I don't care about roguelike/roguelite debate. It's kind of stupid nowadays.
Me? I think my number one complaint is the procedural generation of the maps. It just feels soulless and uninteresting when it’s the same copy pasted rooms I’ve fought through dozens of times, maybe with a different skin But beyond that there’s the issues that bad RNG just makes certain runs unwinnable. In JRPGs, which is my main gaming background, if a boss fight victory or loss comes down to if RNG messes you over, that would be panned as a poorly designed fight, yet your entire victory or reset in this genre being RNG is a core part of the game and it baffles me that people are just okay with that
Feel the same towards all roguelikes that I've played. I played hades, dead cells, the binding of isaac and robobeat but never got past the 10-hour mark quickly became boring to me. The only roguelike that I really-really like is inscryption because of the gameplay (every battle feels like puzzle, very engaging). And it feels that I actually make progress throughout the whole game.
For me, I play all types of roguelike games because i love permadeath feature,randomly generated world and a lot of combination of weapon and item but i really love dead cells,nuclear throne,slay the spire,downwell,vampire survivor,brotato and a lot of other roguelike
Chrono Ark solves most of these issues. It's basically a story-driven JRPG, except to progress the story you need to clear roguelike runs. You also unlock new characters as you progress, which IMO is far more interesting than just unlocking new cards/weapons for the same character/s you've already played with a hundred times.
This is some neurotypical opinion lol, but seriously i think the people like me who have over 200 hours in more than 10 roguelikes, your brain needs to be wired just differently, or a masochist, or both like me
I don’t think disliking roguelikes is synonymous with being neurotypical. I’m diagnosed ADHD and dyslexic and roguelikes are insatiably boring beyond like the first 5-10 hours. Beating my head against the same brick wall is in no way an enjoyable experience for me and I’m sure that opinion is shared with dozens of neurodivergent people.
It's the only one I've ever played but I easily have a couple hundred hours in Hades. I also have probably 50 RPGs that I spent the 50-70hrs to do everything and have never touched again.
I've liked some rogue-like games before, when they were rpgs. I mean making mistake by being greedy and taking the cup of some dryad, seeping off a fountain without checking if it was poisoned. Yeah stuff like that were pretty cool. But dying in an action game with dynamic variables and everything is trying to kill you in real time. eww. I've always hated games that resets your progress like Drill Dozer and that one Ps2 game. I think it just creates a superficial replayabilty by putting you back to almost square 1. I was stating to enjoy Dead Cells and my build was already pretty cool. an hour of good progress turned to nothing once you die. Too bad that these games are really cool and well crafted. I just dont have the patience anymore and never was some gamer god myself. Souls like is my sweetspot i guess if i want something relatively harder games
thats why i hate and cant understand the appeal. its like torturing yourself by dying over and over and over just to level up that tiny bit more so you can progress a little further. for me rogue likes are kinda like bloatware like the new assassins creed games where they just copy and paste an objective 10000 times to get you to keep playing but instead of that they give you like 5 objectives but make them super annoyingly hard to force you to restart every 1 hour of playing.
Trying to find a new job is a rogue like in its own. Getting so close and then having to start from square one. Over and over and over again. For what feels like an eternity. Why. The FUCK. would I play a game that emulates the worst parts of real life?
I disagree with a lot of the things you said in this video. Your points on repetition, progression, story and ending are nonsensical to me. There are many roguelikes with seemingly no ending, but most do have an ending (at least the ones I've played). I never feel like any games get too repetitive because of the large number of characters, weapons, upgrades and builds that change the game vastly and keep the gameplay fresh. Most roguelikes do have a sense of progression whether it's in the story, the world building, the gameplay, or the unlocks. I think we have a different idea of "grinding" as I never feel like I have to mindlessly grind in a roguelike. The progression and randomization in gameplay keep the game engaging compared to post game Elden Ring where I am farming for levels while watching a show on my other monitor. I am a big fan of roguelikes and am happy that you are enjoying some of them. I don't mean to come off as mean or disrespectful and I apologize if I did. We have a lot of differences in taste and that could explain our opinions and why we like and dislike certain aspects of games and genres. If you want I could list off some of my personal favourite roguelikes and/or give you some suggestions. Have a good rest of your day and I hope your channel continues to grow.
I get what you mean. I'm not saying that these aspects of roguelikes are truly lacking, but more in the sense that they just aren't my style. I still like playing them, but I just don't have motivation to keep playing them a ton before moving onto the next game.
@@phrydall good man, I got the impression that they didn't really fit your style. Roguelike usually require a lot of time and commitment for them to be at their best.
This is my sentiment exactly. I also felt like there was something fundamental missing here. You're talking about grinding and progression and hours spent in a game more like it's a job that you either need to get good at or strive to finish for completion's sake rather than something you'd want to be doing. Comparing it to things like chess or fighting games, both things with no set ending and a desire to better oneself through replaying short single rounds, ultimately you wouldn't play either if you didn't find the simple act of playing fun to begin with. You don't need to unlock new chess pieces to keep the game interesting if you enjoy the strategy behind playing or the natural development of skill through practice, or just mashing buttons in a fighting game and watching big flashy combos. I also disagree with almost all the points you made if you're going to compare an MMORPG to roguelikes/roguelites specifically, as those are more grindy, more repetitive, and you gain progression slower (outside of the initial leveling spurt) than any roguelike, even including ones like Binding of Isaac which have hundreds of hours of unlocks.
"I usually move on after just 10-20 hours", "I have never played a Roguelike for more than 60 hours" What the hell is wrong with you? How can you play those games for that long? I've never played a Roguelike for more than 5 hours, maybe even less. People always complain that they are repetitive, but honestly, most Roguelikes feel like shit on your first run. The only reason why every indie dev makes rogue likes is that they don't have the resources to make enough quality content and balance their game properly.
I think i mostly agree with this video. Im a fan of rougelikes. I've played alot and consistently enjoy them. But it's rare for me to go above 20 hours in one and i dont even go all the way to the end in plenty. I loved wizard of legend for 15 hours but i also dont feel bad that i never completed a run cause i had my fun. Great video very relatable
I can understand some reasons such as repetivity, some games suffer a LOT from repetivity but my personal favourite games I believe get better because of it. Slay the spire I hunk is a good example of repetivity making the game worse.
im not a hardcore gamer and am basically unfamiliar with this genre of game maybe thats why, but i dont understand why people like games like hades and deadcells, the levels are random and unpurposeful and non alive, and i should just suppose to fight the ememies with same style of fighting style or same style of ememies in unpurposeful same type of area, for me little bit of change in all those are not enough, and all these things makes these games light and small for me, thats why i dont get it why people like them so so much, or maybe i havent played them enough and more rogue like games, maybe this Have a nice D game on this video of urs will change my mind a little it about rouge likes, maybe its just about the specific game, and this Have a nice D game looks like a action platformer or a metroidvania maybe thats why it seems appealing to me. But i think come to think of it , this genre might work for me for un personality games like galaga or something
not a wild take. many people hate this genre including me. imagine the disappointment when the GoW ragnarok DLC is a rougelike. fvck me right? i want to know more lore but they fvcked up by making it roguelike.
I find that games I put the most hours into are 6-10ish hour RPGs with a lot of character customization. I have played the same pokemon games over and over because each time you're using totally different pokemon. Played monster hunter start to finish and grind the same monsters but with different weapons and armor. Dark souls with different builds. Hundreds of hours. Rougelikes/lites work exactly like this usually with the same amount of variety except that they're 20 minutes long lol.
Yeah, I like being able to have a character you call your own rather than starting fresh every time. It feels like your progression has been reset, which I guess it kinda has been.
doubling down on the bad takes. i studied math for 60 hours, i can't do math it's because math sucks. roguelikes is about personal growth. only a select few genres require user skill/knowledge to progress. if you see learning/growing as an obstacle you don't wish to overcome..... then yeah stick to casual/mindless games.
thats very edgy try hard of you lol. Its not that we don't want to learn/grow in fact the point we are making is that we DID learn and grow but it gets boring after some time because you can literally predict everything in the game and sometimes the game just shafts you and gives you almost no way out. but I guess any criticism will be thrown out the window with you because you seem the type who is here just to defend your genre instead of hearing people out
I actually think your points here are valid. I spent my early gaming days dumping a LOT of hours into COD, and even up until a year or two ago Rocket League. Games that take a lot of time to get good at are great fun and all, but they also take commitment which I just don't have anymore. I'd rather take in more experiences now, instead of getting good at 1 or 2 experiences. Most recently, I started Resident Evil Revelations and MAN! Instead of one continuous story with save points, it's done in Chapters, giving you time to save between each one and deciding if you want to play the next Chapter or not. It's like watching a TV show, except it's playable. They even have story recaps, which I love because sometimes I don't return to games simply because I forgot where I'm at in the story. I honestly wish more games adopted this style
Roguelikes by definition should NOT have progression. The progression is beating the game. That's one of the key differences to a roguelite is that it drops key qualities that make them like rogue. Perma death, no development between games, progression down levels. The point of a true Roguelike is that it deviates from the need to grind. If you get further in the game it's supposed to be purely on the basis of you being a better player. Not gatekeeping gameplay past 500 hours of clicking murlocks
@@Emmycron literally. I understand the tradeoff: that it's nice to have a sense of progression; getting far into the game and the dying still feels meaningful if it's progressing you towards the goal of an unlock. It would be nice if there was some tradeoff where unlocks didn't substantively impact player strength. The closest compromise I've seen is games like slay the spire that will let you unlock new cards to find in your run. It doesn't make the player objectively stronger like just doing +1 damage, but changes what you can find. Ultimately the new card unlocks are still usually stronger than other cards or open you to better builds having a similar effect as flat stat boosts, but it feels slightly less bad imo.
My biggest problem with roguelikes and/or roguelites is just the unfairness of it ... I really do not like it when the game puts me in an impossible scenario.
Risk of Rain 2 fans be like: "Oh you got one shot because you didn't go fast enough? (even if the game supposedly has a one shot protection) Sounds like a skill issue and not a probably game design issue. Oh equipment drone ate your equipment without you realizing, because everything is monochrome and you thought it was a chest? Well it was clearly your fault for using that equipment and skill issue" You may think I'm sarcasming or joking here, and somewhat yes, but these are a short version of some comments I've seen in the community. It's a fun game, don't get me wrong, but you are looking for reassurance after losing a 1 hour+ run, and all you get is "skill issue"
yea its a bit more than that, the devs have no incentive to make the game fair so many things get overlooked in the pursuit of the player dying to extend content. which usual is the main reason a game is made a rougelike in the first place to generate more hours for less work. it might be a trap for any 'like' game honestly, soulslike devs do the same thing "oh it's hard then I much be on the right track" Clueless, that mentality making the game much worse than it should be
@@shroomer3867 I find that a lot with roguelite fans. People mock Dark souls fans for the "git gud" meme but in all honestly that really is for the most part the case with dark souls. But in roguelite games people seem to excuse any bullshit that happens. I feel like most rogue game fans I encounter are the super hardcore types who get some kind of elitist kick like the more they suffer the better a gamer they are. I like hard games don't get me wrong but there is hard and there is poorly balanced or outright buggy
I don't like them that much, I just think they're pretty fun. I would much rather play a great MMO or something else. Sadly those kinda just don't exist anymore.
I'd argue that we're in the golden age of MMOs right now. There are some wonderful free and paid options for currently updated games and legacy. I can go play City of Heroes right now. Or Elder Scrolls Online. Or Wow Retail. Or Wow Classic WotLK. Or Wow SoD... I can go play FFXI or FFXIV... Everquest 1 still has progression servers even. I could play some OSRS and relive my middle school years. That's all a possibility and mostly of these are dirt cheap or even free to play now. Options for private servers if you are willing to dig for them. Eve Online is alive and well, thriving even. Why not a new MMO like Lost Arc or New World? Yeah, they're not Anarchy Online (this one wasn't a good MMO though), but all the games above are a really solid entertainment value for the cost of entry. @phyrd When you say that "a great MMO... don't exist anymore", it tells me that you're not trying to find one because the options are literally there for whatever you want at almost all price points. If you'd like more suggestions for MMO to try, feel free to dm
Thats why rouge like games are cheap. Thats why. I like to only play some games for 10 hours. I dont want to play games for 50+ hours anymore. Same with story games. Once youve seen the story.... eh?
I played Dead Cells for about 3-5 hours before dropping it. I actually had fun but once I realized how many hours I had to put in just to "git gud" I stopped. This genre just isn't for me. I also came from the 2D era and grinded my way through Ghouls N Ghosts, Mario, Donkey Kong, Ninja Gaiden and all those hard ass games. I have a job, kids, wife, and old man fatigue. But I'm happy i tried it because I can truly move in past this genre.
A quality video, but it's a bit nonsensical. This video is like saying "why is a burger not like pizza." If you don't like roguelites, that's fine, or if there's aspects of the genre you don't like, sure, but youre complaining about several of the features that literally define the genre. This is like complaining that NBA games don't have a story and ending. Yeah, that's not the point of the sports game genre. At the same time, many roguelites have stories these days, or at least significant lore not that different from Hollow Knight that creates a bigger picture. Either way, are you me, because 90% of the games showcased I've played and love of jrpgs and Metroidvanias. Also sea of stars was definitely just ok, chained echoes was way better.
Yeah, I guess it was kinda a way of saying that they're fun but there's a lot of reasons why I don't stick around and play them a ton. Mostly cuz I do prefer other types of games.
@@phryd That's fair honestly. Looking at my own library: Slay the Spire and Across the Obelisk: 250+hrs Banners of Ruin and Monster Train : 60hrs Trials of Fire: 45hrs But then: Darkest Dungeon, Hades, Risk of Rain 2, Dead Cells, Griftlands, Rogue book, Star Renegades, Tainted Grail - all 30hrs or less Either way, subscribed and play Valdis Story if you need a Metroidvania fix and haven't already. Looking forward to seeing more.
@@phryd yeah that’s why I like lethal company for the horror and the proximity chat but it feels like a rougelike when it takes away all of you’re stuff. That’s just one reason I hate rougelikes.
► Ranking Every Game I Played Last Year! ua-cam.com/video/lIvgs-3rve0/v-deo.html
Incoming Metroidvania and RPG Videos?
Dude you were so right about the "I've already put in the grind, I don't need to prove anything anymore"
I've been gaming since I was a kid, I already did a lot of stuff, miss me with the bullshit please.
Yeah dude. Unless there's a reward at the end, I don't wanna grind.
@@phrydThen get a job or start a business. Video games don't offer a reward.
Roguelikes for me at least are arcade games with formulas you can memorize instead of levels. They're like playing Pac-Man or Megaman with more variety baked in. Treating them like a Main course when most of them are designed to be honey roasted peanuts might be what's holding you back from enjoyment? At least I'm not the type to play more than a Megaman games' worth of a roguelike in a sitting.
Then again I also actively enjoy things that are difficult where progression can be measured in dexterity rather than a finish line. Megaman replays are good because you yourself GET good at them, same as Devil May Cry, Monster Hunter, and Roguelikes. With boredom only ever setting in if I'm already past full completion AND specifically forcing myself to keep going instead of playing them to play it.
This is the valid message that I was seeking. I am so frustrated by every modern game taking elements from Roguelikes that I have serious fatigue from it and I can't be the only one.
As someone with adhd as soon as i see Rougelike, I just take a 180 and go the other way because i just get impatient. You die. You have to start from 0, so many hours are gone
Also, it seems a lot of indie games are rouge likes now and that dissapoints me because im missing out on so many games
Yeah, the indie market is flooded with them. It becomes really hard to choose what ones to play because honestly, a lot of them are pretty bad.
Hades is the first rogue-like I actually enjoyed, but I still got bored of it after about 30 hours.
I'm about 40 hours into Hades, I can't say that I'm bored of it, but I have stopped playing it.
@@phryd After finally beating a run, I quickly got bored. I was just like...Ok, so it's just more of the same but with some added optional challenges and cut scenes. I think I'm good, actually.
idk why but Hades never gets boring to me ever. I think maybe bc I'll do 2 runs at the most and jump on a major triple A game, spend the rest of the night playing that. I don't play Hades for hours on end, that would make me get bored.
You hit the nail on the head. These games feel like grind for the sake of grind for me. Something in my head just doesn’t see the point and I wind up moving on super quickly.
I can enjoy rogue likes but most of them depend on bad game design. Hades is probably most polished and best designed rogue like followed by Slay the Spire but even these have flaws especially Slay the Spire (terrible RNG, same cards every start, wasting time first 1-2 acts just cuz game tells you to beat it again).
You can definitely make rogue likes work. You can add progression better and enforce weapon/card variety and have more interesting level designs. Most of them are lazily designed and that’s the core issue
Actually lol'd at 5:30. I totally related to the end section where you talked about replaying the same SNES games and renting games on the weekend. Times have changed so much!
It has definitely changed. For the best or for the worst, I'm not sure.
"You just play for enjoyment" - is there a better reason to play? 😅
I believe that your point is about games in general and your preference for games with a clear story; you can switch the word "roguelikes" in the video with a lot of other genres and the video would work the same.
Roguelikes are structured with this loop: play - die - learn - repeat. They're difficult games, once you play a lot of those this difficulty decreases a bit, but you'll always find something difficult in this games. And that's part of the fun! Try to always improve, look for tougher challenges after you complete the game with difficulty modifiers etc.
You don't have this chance in other genres. I'm a super fan of Ori, it's the first game that took me in the amazing journey in the Indie world. It has a wonderful plot, but after 20 hours the game is done. I played twice and with 40 hours or so, I know I won't play it again. It's a good memory for me, but it's over now. I'll be able to play "The Binding of Isaac" in the next years without problems, even if it was released a long time ago.
"I've already put in the grind, I don't need to prove anything anymore" - and that tells me you're not against the genre's structure, simply you already experienced a lot this kind of game structure.
I think you didn't continue enough Hades, because it's super clear when the 2 main acts of the story end. Btw Hades has one of the most interesting plots I ever played even considering other games. A lot of those games have a clear ending; the main difference is that you can continue the game after that and enjoy it anyway.
I agree that a lot of roguelikes are not story-driven, but there are so many roguelikes subgenres that it's impossible to generalize this way.
Playing Dead Cells for 20 hours it's definitely not enough to have that strong opinion. 😅 And there's an ending even if it's difficult to reach (I wasn't able to do it still).
So what I take from this video is: roguelike is not a genre for you. They don't suck by definition.
I really appreciated the effort on your side though since from the video it seems you played a lot of different games to express these ideas.
Oh and even if I really like roguelikes, I don't care about roguelike/roguelite debate. It's kind of stupid nowadays.
I was genuinely stunned to see this had under one thousand views, can't wait to see you blow up man, it's inevitable with the quality of your videos.
Thanks a ton man! Hopefully UA-cam is nice to me and I can get some more views on this stuff dude.
Me?
I think my number one complaint is the procedural generation of the maps. It just feels soulless and uninteresting when it’s the same copy pasted rooms I’ve fought through dozens of times, maybe with a different skin
But beyond that there’s the issues that bad RNG just makes certain runs unwinnable. In JRPGs, which is my main gaming background, if a boss fight victory or loss comes down to if RNG messes you over, that would be panned as a poorly designed fight, yet your entire victory or reset in this genre being RNG is a core part of the game and it baffles me that people are just okay with that
Feel the same towards all roguelikes that I've played. I played hades, dead cells, the binding of isaac and robobeat but never got past the 10-hour mark quickly became boring to me. The only roguelike that I really-really like is inscryption because of the gameplay (every battle feels like puzzle, very engaging). And it feels that I actually make progress throughout the whole game.
For me, I play all types of roguelike games because i love permadeath feature,randomly generated world and a lot of combination of weapon and item
but i really love dead cells,nuclear throne,slay the spire,downwell,vampire survivor,brotato and a lot of other roguelike
I enjoyed it for a while, but it kinda just felt unsatisfying at times.
Chrono Ark solves most of these issues. It's basically a story-driven JRPG, except to progress the story you need to clear roguelike runs. You also unlock new characters as you progress, which IMO is far more interesting than just unlocking new cards/weapons for the same character/s you've already played with a hundred times.
mannn the editing is insane wtf
Thanks a lot dude, I try my best.
About Dead cells. There IS an ending. But for it you have to beat game with 5 BC
Yeah, that's never gonna happen. I'm way too trash at the game.
This is some neurotypical opinion lol, but seriously i think the people like me who have over 200 hours in more than 10 roguelikes, your brain needs to be wired just differently, or a masochist, or both like me
I don’t think disliking roguelikes is synonymous with being neurotypical. I’m diagnosed ADHD and dyslexic and roguelikes are insatiably boring beyond like the first 5-10 hours. Beating my head against the same brick wall is in no way an enjoyable experience for me and I’m sure that opinion is shared with dozens of neurodivergent people.
It's the only one I've ever played but I easily have a couple hundred hours in Hades. I also have probably 50 RPGs that I spent the 50-70hrs to do everything and have never touched again.
Hades is generally regarded as one of the best for a reason. I feel it takes the Roguelike elements and makes them very user friendly and fun.
I've liked some rogue-like games before, when they were rpgs.
I mean making mistake by being greedy and taking the cup of some dryad, seeping off a fountain without checking if it was poisoned.
Yeah stuff like that were pretty cool.
But dying in an action game with dynamic variables and everything is trying to kill you in real time.
eww.
I've always hated games that resets your progress like Drill Dozer and that one Ps2 game.
I think it just creates a superficial replayabilty by putting you back to almost square 1.
I was stating to enjoy Dead Cells and my build was already pretty cool.
an hour of good progress turned to nothing once you die.
Too bad that these games are really cool and well crafted.
I just dont have the patience anymore and never was some gamer god myself.
Souls like is my sweetspot i guess if i want something relatively harder games
thats why i hate and cant understand the appeal. its like torturing yourself by dying over and over and over just to level up that tiny bit more so you can progress a little further. for me rogue likes are kinda like bloatware like the new assassins creed games where they just copy and paste an objective 10000 times to get you to keep playing but instead of that they give you like 5 objectives but make them super annoyingly hard to force you to restart every 1 hour of playing.
I also disliked Sea of Stars. Didn't care for the story and didn't like the repetitive gameplay after I got more powerful.
Yeah, the story was very blah to me. And the systems/combat/puzzles were too bland and repetitive.
skill issues. All roguelikes can be finished through skill alone.
I lack skill.
Trying to find a new job is a rogue like in its own. Getting so close and then having to start from square one. Over and over and over again. For what feels like an eternity.
Why. The FUCK. would I play a game that emulates the worst parts of real life?
I disagree with a lot of the things you said in this video. Your points on repetition, progression, story and ending are nonsensical to me. There are many roguelikes with seemingly no ending, but most do have an ending (at least the ones I've played). I never feel like any games get too repetitive because of the large number of characters, weapons, upgrades and builds that change the game vastly and keep the gameplay fresh. Most roguelikes do have a sense of progression whether it's in the story, the world building, the gameplay, or the unlocks. I think we have a different idea of "grinding" as I never feel like I have to mindlessly grind in a roguelike. The progression and randomization in gameplay keep the game engaging compared to post game Elden Ring where I am farming for levels while watching a show on my other monitor.
I am a big fan of roguelikes and am happy that you are enjoying some of them. I don't mean to come off as mean or disrespectful and I apologize if I did. We have a lot of differences in taste and that could explain our opinions and why we like and dislike certain aspects of games and genres. If you want I could list off some of my personal favourite roguelikes and/or give you some suggestions. Have a good rest of your day and I hope your channel continues to grow.
I get what you mean. I'm not saying that these aspects of roguelikes are truly lacking, but more in the sense that they just aren't my style. I still like playing them, but I just don't have motivation to keep playing them a ton before moving onto the next game.
@@phrydall good man, I got the impression that they didn't really fit your style. Roguelike usually require a lot of time and commitment for them to be at their best.
@@dvd72 That is true... Sadly I don't have a ton of time like I used to.
This is my sentiment exactly.
I also felt like there was something fundamental missing here. You're talking about grinding and progression and hours spent in a game more like it's a job that you either need to get good at or strive to finish for completion's sake rather than something you'd want to be doing.
Comparing it to things like chess or fighting games, both things with no set ending and a desire to better oneself through replaying short single rounds, ultimately you wouldn't play either if you didn't find the simple act of playing fun to begin with. You don't need to unlock new chess pieces to keep the game interesting if you enjoy the strategy behind playing or the natural development of skill through practice, or just mashing buttons in a fighting game and watching big flashy combos.
I also disagree with almost all the points you made if you're going to compare an MMORPG to roguelikes/roguelites specifically, as those are more grindy, more repetitive, and you gain progression slower (outside of the initial leveling spurt) than any roguelike, even including ones like Binding of Isaac which have hundreds of hours of unlocks.
"I usually move on after just 10-20 hours", "I have never played a Roguelike for more than 60 hours"
What the hell is wrong with you? How can you play those games for that long?
I've never played a Roguelike for more than 5 hours, maybe even less. People always complain that they are repetitive, but honestly, most Roguelikes feel like shit on your first run. The only reason why every indie dev makes rogue likes is that they don't have the resources to make enough quality content and balance their game properly.
I really only like roguelikes for the gameplay itself and not the roguelike aspect
Yeah, really depends on the game tho for me.
My belief that there IS an endpoint in roguelikes. When you get 100% achievments in that game
I think i mostly agree with this video. Im a fan of rougelikes. I've played alot and consistently enjoy them. But it's rare for me to go above 20 hours in one and i dont even go all the way to the end in plenty. I loved wizard of legend for 15 hours but i also dont feel bad that i never completed a run cause i had my fun. Great video very relatable
Thanks man, I guess you kinda get what I'm feeling then. I just play until I'm happy with it and I'll just move onto the next game.
I can understand some reasons such as repetivity, some games suffer a LOT from repetivity but my personal favourite games I believe get better because of it. Slay the spire I hunk is a good example of repetivity making the game worse.
Have you ever played Roboquest ?
Did ya ever get that Defending Ring 😅
I did play Roboquest, but I was really not a fan because I just didn't like the movement. I during my 6 years, I never saw a D.Ring.
Making a game into a roguelike is just a way to reuse a tiny amount of content endlessly.
This is also why I’ve never played an mmo.
It's hard if you have a life... Haha.
im not a hardcore gamer and am basically unfamiliar with this genre of game maybe thats why, but i dont understand why people like games like hades and deadcells, the levels are random and unpurposeful and non alive, and i should just suppose to fight the ememies with same style of fighting style or same style of ememies in unpurposeful same type of area, for me little bit of change in all those are not enough, and all these things makes these games light and small for me, thats why i dont get it why people like them so so much, or maybe i havent played them enough and more rogue like games, maybe this Have a nice D game on this video of urs will change my mind a little it about rouge likes, maybe its just about the specific game, and this Have a nice D game looks like a action platformer or a metroidvania maybe thats why it seems appealing to me. But i think come to think of it , this genre might work for me for un personality games like galaga or something
Most underrated channel. Keep up man. ❤
Thanks a lot man. I will try my best.
Yo bro, that's a wild take . I still love the genre though XD
Oh, I like them to. But I guess just not enough to put a ton of hours into them.
not a wild take. many people hate this genre including me. imagine the disappointment when the GoW ragnarok DLC is a rougelike. fvck me right? i want to know more lore but they fvcked up by making it roguelike.
I find that games I put the most hours into are 6-10ish hour RPGs with a lot of character customization. I have played the same pokemon games over and over because each time you're using totally different pokemon. Played monster hunter start to finish and grind the same monsters but with different weapons and armor. Dark souls with different builds. Hundreds of hours. Rougelikes/lites work exactly like this usually with the same amount of variety except that they're 20 minutes long lol.
Yeah, I like being able to have a character you call your own rather than starting fresh every time. It feels like your progression has been reset, which I guess it kinda has been.
doubling down on the bad takes.
i studied math for 60 hours, i can't do math it's because math sucks.
roguelikes is about personal growth.
only a select few genres require user skill/knowledge to progress.
if you see learning/growing as an obstacle you don't wish to overcome.....
then yeah stick to casual/mindless games.
thats very edgy try hard of you lol. Its not that we don't want to learn/grow in fact the point we are making is that we DID learn and grow but it gets boring after some time because you can literally predict everything in the game and sometimes the game just shafts you and gives you almost no way out. but I guess any criticism will be thrown out the window with you because you seem the type who is here just to defend your genre instead of hearing people out
whats that first game with the spider guy
Looking forward to the next game you're playing mate.
Yeah dude... Hopefully a new one sooner than later.
"Roguelite" is dumb and I refuse to use it.
I use it because way too many people get triggered from it.
I actually think your points here are valid. I spent my early gaming days dumping a LOT of hours into COD, and even up until a year or two ago Rocket League. Games that take a lot of time to get good at are great fun and all, but they also take commitment which I just don't have anymore. I'd rather take in more experiences now, instead of getting good at 1 or 2 experiences. Most recently, I started Resident Evil Revelations and MAN! Instead of one continuous story with save points, it's done in Chapters, giving you time to save between each one and deciding if you want to play the next Chapter or not. It's like watching a TV show, except it's playable. They even have story recaps, which I love because sometimes I don't return to games simply because I forgot where I'm at in the story. I honestly wish more games adopted this style
Yeah, it's just a different type of mindset. I think maybe it's cuz I'm getting lazy, but who knows?
I'll sub, it was gouda enough
Thanks a lot man!
uwu
Nah. Holocure is built different!!!
The soundtrack gets me pumped.
Roguelikes by definition should NOT have progression.
The progression is beating the game. That's one of the key differences to a roguelite is that it drops key qualities that make them like rogue. Perma death, no development between games, progression down levels.
The point of a true Roguelike is that it deviates from the need to grind. If you get further in the game it's supposed to be purely on the basis of you being a better player. Not gatekeeping gameplay past 500 hours of clicking murlocks
Yeah, I totally understand. I'm just not that into that kinda progression anymore. I don't wanna be a good player... Haha.
Deviates from the need to grind?
If anything it makes the game WORSE because you're at the mercy of a random number generator
I can't stand roguelite unlocks, knowing that no matter how good I am, I'm just gonna get hard locked out of content for the next 20+ hours
@@Emmycron literally. I understand the tradeoff: that it's nice to have a sense of progression; getting far into the game and the dying still feels meaningful if it's progressing you towards the goal of an unlock. It would be nice if there was some tradeoff where unlocks didn't substantively impact player strength. The closest compromise I've seen is games like slay the spire that will let you unlock new cards to find in your run. It doesn't make the player objectively stronger like just doing +1 damage, but changes what you can find. Ultimately the new card unlocks are still usually stronger than other cards or open you to better builds having a similar effect as flat stat boosts, but it feels slightly less bad imo.
My biggest problem with roguelikes and/or roguelites is just the unfairness of it ... I really do not like it when the game puts me in an impossible scenario.
Risk of Rain 2 fans be like: "Oh you got one shot because you didn't go fast enough? (even if the game supposedly has a one shot protection) Sounds like a skill issue and not a probably game design issue. Oh equipment drone ate your equipment without you realizing, because everything is monochrome and you thought it was a chest? Well it was clearly your fault for using that equipment and skill issue"
You may think I'm sarcasming or joking here, and somewhat yes, but these are a short version of some comments I've seen in the community. It's a fun game, don't get me wrong, but you are looking for reassurance after losing a 1 hour+ run, and all you get is "skill issue"
yea its a bit more than that, the devs have no incentive to make the game fair so many things get overlooked in the pursuit of the player dying to extend content. which usual is the main reason a game is made a rougelike in the first place to generate more hours for less work.
it might be a trap for any 'like' game honestly, soulslike devs do the same thing "oh it's hard then I much be on the right track" Clueless, that mentality making the game much worse than it should be
That just means you are mentally handicaped
@@shroomer3867 I find that a lot with roguelite fans. People mock Dark souls fans for the "git gud" meme but in all honestly that really is for the most part the case with dark souls. But in roguelite games people seem to excuse any bullshit that happens. I feel like most rogue game fans I encounter are the super hardcore types who get some kind of elitist kick like the more they suffer the better a gamer they are. I like hard games don't get me wrong but there is hard and there is poorly balanced or outright buggy
Bud, I don't think you like these rogue games as much as you think you do.
I don't like them that much, I just think they're pretty fun. I would much rather play a great MMO or something else. Sadly those kinda just don't exist anymore.
I'd argue that we're in the golden age of MMOs right now. There are some wonderful free and paid options for currently updated games and legacy. I can go play City of Heroes right now. Or Elder Scrolls Online. Or Wow Retail. Or Wow Classic WotLK. Or Wow SoD... I can go play FFXI or FFXIV... Everquest 1 still has progression servers even. I could play some OSRS and relive my middle school years. That's all a possibility and mostly of these are dirt cheap or even free to play now. Options for private servers if you are willing to dig for them. Eve Online is alive and well, thriving even. Why not a new MMO like Lost Arc or New World? Yeah, they're not Anarchy Online (this one wasn't a good MMO though), but all the games above are a really solid entertainment value for the cost of entry. @phyrd
When you say that "a great MMO... don't exist anymore", it tells me that you're not trying to find one because the options are literally there for whatever you want at almost all price points. If you'd like more suggestions for MMO to try, feel free to dm
I hear you. I do enjoy them and the fact you can put it down whenever. I have a pile of shame of games I never finished lol
Yeah, it's kind of the beauty of it. You don't feel bad when you stop playing.
Sea of Stars overrated? Cool story
I felt the combat was very 1 note because characters barely had any skills to use. I mooneranged from the first hour to the very last.
Thats why rouge like games are cheap. Thats why. I like to only play some games for 10 hours. I dont want to play games for 50+ hours anymore. Same with story games. Once youve seen the story.... eh?
Yeah, I think we're kinda in the same boat. But I guess I get what you mean by them being cheaper, it kinda makes sense.
Git good boy 😂😂😂😂
I'm too trash for that.
ok man game taste is quite subjective ig
I played Dead Cells for about 3-5 hours before dropping it. I actually had fun but once I realized how many hours I had to put in just to "git gud" I stopped. This genre just isn't for me. I also came from the 2D era and grinded my way through Ghouls N Ghosts, Mario, Donkey Kong, Ninja Gaiden and all those hard ass games. I have a job, kids, wife, and old man fatigue. But I'm happy i tried it because I can truly move in past this genre.
February 2025... trust
You better not be wrong.
A quality video, but it's a bit nonsensical. This video is like saying "why is a burger not like pizza." If you don't like roguelites, that's fine, or if there's aspects of the genre you don't like, sure, but youre complaining about several of the features that literally define the genre. This is like complaining that NBA games don't have a story and ending. Yeah, that's not the point of the sports game genre. At the same time, many roguelites have stories these days, or at least significant lore not that different from Hollow Knight that creates a bigger picture.
Either way, are you me, because 90% of the games showcased I've played and love of jrpgs and Metroidvanias. Also sea of stars was definitely just ok, chained echoes was way better.
Yeah, I guess it was kinda a way of saying that they're fun but there's a lot of reasons why I don't stick around and play them a ton. Mostly cuz I do prefer other types of games.
@@phryd That's fair honestly. Looking at my own library:
Slay the Spire and Across the Obelisk: 250+hrs
Banners of Ruin and Monster Train : 60hrs
Trials of Fire: 45hrs
But then:
Darkest Dungeon, Hades, Risk of Rain 2, Dead Cells, Griftlands, Rogue book, Star Renegades, Tainted Grail - all 30hrs or less
Either way, subscribed and play Valdis Story if you need a Metroidvania fix and haven't already. Looking forward to seeing more.
1:02
Game name?
BlazBlue: Entropy Effect. ua-cam.com/video/I56pZDUgwU0/v-deo.html
I absolutely hate rogue likes.
Really?
@@phryd yeah that’s why I like lethal company for the horror and the proximity chat but it feels like a rougelike when it takes away all of you’re stuff. That’s just one reason I hate rougelikes.
@@gmg9010skill issue everywhere 😊
@@Roguelike_Enjoyertouch grass
Play noita ya goober. I'm 700 hours deep. No sign of stopping
Stockholm syndrome
We'll see about that, haha.
its an incredibly boring genre
If you think hades suck then i don't respect your opinions lol.
Oh, I definitely don't think it sucks. I think it's one of the best ones.
If you think this entire video is about criticizing Hades, then you got a skill issue when it comes to paying attention
@@baboon_baboon_baboon I think your reading comprehension sucks.