Sal, now that we see how well the pre slope appears to work in real lide, what are your thoughts about putting RedGard over the shower floor prior to installing tile over it?
@@michaeldreher7475 I have seen the drain in this type of system get completely blocked with efflorescence and mineral deposits, I have seen those deposits work their way between the liner and drain body, clamping ring and cause a leek. I have seen them fail because they were not installed properly. That does not mean that they always fail, it just means that in certain circumstances they can fail. So adding a waterproofing membrane on top will work, if you do it in such a way to make the liner redundant. That means transforming the "Water in, Water out" system to a sealed system. So the key is to seal the waterproofing to the walls, and to the drain, so no water at all gets to the mud. Problem is that this type of drain will allow water into the mud if it ever gets clogged or backs up. So the liner has to be there to contain any water in the event of a clogged drain. This is why I don't do Vinyl liners anymore. There is actually a way to use this kind of three piece drain without a liner, Look into the Divot Method.
Sal DiBlasi si you would recommend the divot method ? That’s what I been doing as it made more sense to me and also so I diddnt have to buy their expensive drain.
I love it when people do it by the book! I will not bore you with my experience the last 18 yrs of re-doing failed shower pans. There is a reason why engineers who design these systems go to school for a long time. To say “there is no need for it” is pretty much saying you know more than they do. Thumbs up to videos like these that teach the right way to do it.
I friggin love your videos you've really helped solidify everything I've researched into a level of total confidence that my new shower is totally waterproof. HOWEVER! "A preslope takes 10 minutes"? Broooooo you're the TILE COACH it took me like 2 hours. But no in all seriousness you're awesome. Thank you, I appreciate your videos.
Thanks dude!! I've debated this many times in FL. They say drop pans dont need it. I say every shower needs it. This is a prime example why to preslope and have proper water proofing. Thank you for doing the testing and video to explain it. You da man!!
*Isaac, to me, this is one of your best videos.* IMO, pre-slope is critical and this knowledge is fundamental. I just sent a link for this video to my tile guy who doesn't seem to get why I am insisting on pre-slope.
Easily the best video I’ve seen which gives such a clear and concise demonstration of the mechanics of a custom shower pan system. Many thanks for this incredible educational video!
This video is 110% correct! I remodel bathrooms and whenever I take out someone's existing shower pan it is full of water and it stinks. In some cases the mortar is starting to fail. The few I have removed with a pre-slope are always in great shape. As Isaac stated, you may not have an issue with placing the liner flat on the sub-floor but it's just a matter of time. If you want your shower to last more than 10 years, do the pre-slope!
Where the shower drain grill meets the mortar is not sealed. That's were the water is going. If he wanted to prove the pre slope works he would have red guarded over the center of the including the drain. There is no seal where the plastic meets the the the pan. Am I correct that the showers you are remodeling also do not have a water membrane on top of the pan.
You make the best videos I have seen. I am a carpenter literally on the opposite side of you in northeast of New England. I am not a tile expert, but you have answered so many questions that others cannot without me even asking! Thank you! 🙏 🙏 💪
Great video! I worked for a custom home builder all through college. I worked with a lot of the subs and remember back then (1986-1990) they always built pre-slopes. I hardly see them built anymore. My shower does not have one. 5 years after owning this house I'm getting ready to rip this shower out and build a nice custom walk-through shower. Also, I have seen recently guys coating the deck mud with red guard. I assume they think doing that is necessary because there is no pre-slope. A flat liner will ALWAYS hold some water, and eventually weaken the mud.
I totally agree with the pre slope. Would be great to do the exact same video or presentation without the pre slope. And see how much water sits in the pan.
@@TileCoach Thank you Isaac. You show a lot of character and integrity in your work. Most guys just put down whatever and when they get home, they don't even contemplate new solutions. You have a great attitude towards your work and your service to others. That's a rare quality in men these days. Very honored to watch your videos, it's a joy to learn so much from a guy with great principles.
Several youtube tilers say we don't need a pre-slope. I always do one anyway, and now I can say why. Thanks for this detailed explanation. Every tiler should see this.
Nice demonstration! Back in the day roofers used to install hot mop pan's not only were they not presloped but they would also get tar in the weep holes. With the holes clogged with tar the water would stay in the mortar & over time minerals would seep out of the dry pack mortar against the walls. This would leave nasty deposits at perimeter of floor. Nice job on your floating its nice to know there is still setters out there that have skills installing mortar. I have been doing showers for over 4 decades & i have not ever had a floated curb carry water over the curb. What scares me more is folks who put screws thru cementitious backer board & penetrate the membrane over the curb depending on caulking to control water for 20 or 30 years or more. keep up the good work!
This is an awesome video! I am a rookie as far as shower floors but this explained so much. The effectiveness of pre slope and why I would not want to put a waterproof membrane directly underneath the tile. Deck mud, looks like the way to go for me.
thank you for this one! I was left a widow awhile back and he left me with a half finished bathroom remodel . All I have left to do is the shower ~ I think I can do it after watching most of your videos ....
What a great video, no one that I know of has shown anything like this. Good job. You also said not to red guard the bed, which makes sense to me. I've always applied red guard before I laid the tile. I can now see why you shouldn't, I know many have done the same thing. Thank you for this test.
Most of the drains I’ve put in also have drainage Channels in the threads of the stem. Did you by chance seal that area to insure all the water was forced through the weep holes. It doesn’t have any bearing on the conclusion but it just seems too fast for those small holes to drain all that water. The pre-slope is clearly a must have. You confirmed that for the unbelievers. Great vid.
I appreciate his work as it brings light to the issue. However, we are not unbelievers, that's an unwitting way to deviate from the point at hand. We question and challenge what we want to make certain of and this has nothing to do with belief or unbelief!
Glad to be the 300th like! Isaac that was an awesome demonstration of the water-in/water-out system. I have always thought of the deck mud as a sponge, that's the best way to visualize it. I tell people all the time who as me how did water get past their shower tiles, that the grout lines are just sponges, people think mortar is waterproof. this useful visual shows otherwise. It still prefer doing the Schluter pre-formed shower pans which are a sealed system, as opposed to a water in/water out system.
I just ripped apart my shower floor. The clamping ring was just sitting on top of the drain assembly. No putty, just sitting on top. The membrane was tight between the clamping ring and the drain cap receiver. Yet there was a big leak from the drain area outward toward the wall. Damn builders !
@@TileCoach My sub floor wasn't level. So I did a mortar slope under the pan liner. This way any water on the liner will go toward the drain. What do you think ? I'm still gonna put a 2" dry pack slope on the liner with 1/4" slope for every foot though.
Like you don't have enough peanuts already, I think you should have tiled that test box before you tore it apart then did the water test. It would be wild to see how much water passes through the grout lines on a floor!
Whats the point of that, the test was to show that it work in the event water gets in. A better test would be to do a preslope vs no preslope to see the difference.
ok but the pan is saturated and there for compromised. if the pan is saturated hasn't the fail clock started? I do preslope cause I was taught that way but if the pan is saturated it's done and will not ever dry out.
Really nice demo, but I think all you proved is that weep holes work! Preslope/No Preslope debate is an interesting one. On the other hand, I am in the process of taking out our 70 year old tile shower floor. No preslope, no waterproof membrane, no lead pan, no copper pan, just a layer of what looks like tarpaper over the subfloor and up the wall about an inch! What did they do back then that allowed these showers to last so long!
Pre-slope is a must if you want a shower to last. I replaced a shower floor for a realtor friend of mine, the drain flange was sitting on top of the plywood and whoever did the shower just ran the liner flat on the plywood and over the drain flange, so there was a hump all the way around where it went up on the flange. The shower was only 5 years old and so saturated that water was still standing on top of the tile after hours of using it.
Even with proof, lazy people will STILL argue how you don't need this just to cut corners and leave the site faster, keep up the good work Isaac! Don't pay attention to certain "pros" out there arguing against this, I stopped watching all others since they're all spreading bad info, whatever installer thinks this is wrong needs to reevaluate their job choice.
OH---WELL if the PAN LINER MANUFACTURER recommends it then it must be LEGIT! C'MON DUDE! They're trying to sell products. I can't believe you even said that.
I'm no expert for sure and I have watched hours of videos before redoing my downstairs shower (it will be my first one). I get the pre-slope. Great Idea. Not to impressed with the test. Should have done a side by side comparison with no pre-slope and also with out the drain mat under the mud bed. It would give a better idea as to how the two compare. Regardless, water contains food for mold as does the human body as it is washed off and goes down into the leak source. I agree with some of the comments the test should include tile and grout with a couple spots simulating cracked tile and worn out grout or even a crack in the seam along the wall. the test was great to show the weep holes working but I still have issues with having the drain mat in there for the test. In the real world water takes forever to get to those weep holes. By the time it does, like anything in a home that has water incursion, there is usually alot of work to repair.
You should have done a side by side with a mock up that didn't have a pre-slope. That's the only way to definitively show that a pre slope works as its supposed to
Not even necessary. Within 3 minutes, he had more than 95% of that water drained into the bucket below. Gravity alone is all the proof you need that water would pool around a drain lip without a pre-slope.
In my 40 years in this biz I’ve never seen this in action, just did it because it was how I was trained to do. I have to say I was amazed at how well the weep holes drained. One of your best videos. Would have need nice to see how the no slope pan would have faired as well. Thanks for this!
Isaac your the man I've been wanting to do this exact mock up. Pre slope rocks. Send this to Starr tile and the other hacks on here that say no pre slope! Love your channel brother
And as you so succinctly pointed out, why not preslope? It takes 10 minutes and guarantees the water will be directed toward the weep holes in a shorter time than the same water on a flat surface waiting for the capillary action to take place sometime in the future. In a perfect world, a guy would use self-spacing tiles to absolutely minimize the grout exposure, then seal what grout there was (
when installing a pre slope on wood floor, do you need to put tar paper and wire mess before your sand mix or thinset on the wood floor before sand mix? i wish you have a video on the proper way to install a preslope on wood. thanks
I dont get it....your picture shows the concrete than the liner than more concrete " the pre sloop". But the video is concrete on top of the some bubbly mesh drain sheet? With water droplets? Someone explain how this was comparable to what's on pictured on paper..Please explain
Great video. You show that a pre-slope works. But you would need to do a similar build and test without a pre-slope and see if the results are the same. Then pull the deck mud out and see if indeed there are puddles. But do know that the laws of physics dictate that there is a principle that is stronger than gravity (up to a certain height of water column). and that will draw the water to an even distribution throughout the mud.
Isaac--you said it would be a bad idea to put Red Gard or similar on the shower pan, but wouldn't that only direct more water down the drain? Furthermore, if any did get past the Red Gard, no problem, as that would be caught by the pan liner and directed out the weep holes?
Isaac thank you, that test alone showed me what I needed to see to better understand. Are you available to speak with (and yes I'll pay you for your time)? I live in Texas and I miss California's beautiful weather. You do an amazing job thank you sir
Help! With, the pre-slope, deck, tile etc. my shower floor is going to be a couple of inches higher than the rest of the bathroom floor. Yes, I will have a curb, but I just realized there is going to be a floor height difference. Is this typical?
You guys ever use ready to tile shower base for base/standard size shower area. A lot of my customer prefer the acrylic shower base because they don't have to worry about cleaning the grout on a tile floor.
Yes sir this a no brainers this is why there's chanes and weeping holes in tightening ring ,the plumbing manufacture made the 3 part drain to work to release water
Fungus foot!! My previous home had a two-person walk-in tile shower with no pre-slope. I watched the tile guy build it; it never occurred to me there was any error. The outside of my left foot always had what I thought was athletes foot. I would get it mostly under control with sprays, but it would always come back- same exact place, nowhere else. One day I accidentally stepped a little closer to my corner of the shower and it felt extra slippery. I got down to examine the area and found it was quite slimy. So I scrubbed it with bleach, and a few days later it was back. The slimy corner was nearest where my left foot stood every day, sometimes twice a day, when I took a shower, my back to the showerhead. Since my shower was used most, I believe my side always had the most moisture, and the dead corner grew fungus, which was transmitted every single day to the closest body part, my lateral left foot! Yuck. I sold that house. I’m building a cabin now-diy. I just put in a pre-slope for my shower. It took me more than 10 minutes, but it was my first time.
i think that the preslope gets the max volume of water down the drain even though the bed mortar will remain damp. the 'damp' water will remain in the pores of the sand grains and never run out. so, if there is a break in the waterproofing membrane, with preslope there will not be any significant stagnant water volume to flow out and damage structural timbers below.
What drain did you use in this? I recently looked at an Oatey 3pc drain and found it to have inherent design flaws; most obvious was that when assembled, the weep holes are 50% blocked by the drain base then the drainage is further restricted by the neck of the clamping ring. While this might function properly at install, anyone who has ever inspected a shower drain that has been used for awhile can attest that drains tend to collect some sort of gelatinous gunk. I presume the gunk being a mixture of organic compounds mixed with soap scum and mineral deposits. Combined with the flow restrictions already mentioned, this could easily clog at which time water will begin to pool. This forces the system to be wholly dependent on the silicone seal between the drain base and the pan liner to prevent leakage. While silicone to pvc can have a good mechanical bond, it isn’t always water tight. Even if it was water tight at install, over time (due to thermal expansion and floor flex) could lose bond over time. So, while a pan/drain could easily pass a water test when installed, it could fail months or years down the road due to use. What is worse, is that a failure could be avoided if the drain was maintained better. While simply cleaning the weep holes could eliminate any pooling, though even if it were possible to unscrew the drain barrel (its not) the Oatey drain is impossible to clean due to the drain holes being blocked by the neck of the clamp ring. Turning the clamp ring upside down could allow better access to the weep holes but since the drain channels are only on one side (the bottom) this would eliminate drain channels between the ring and the liner. I would appreciate if you would take a look at this for yourself and if possible recommend a better 3 pc drain for use in a WIWO system. Thanks!
Great video. However, I think top coating the pan with red guard is a good idea because in real world you do not want your pan soaked like this, where the water will never dry and mold will grow like crazy. I coated my shower and I am very pleased to see the grout line dry very fast. I also used 2ftX1ft tile and linear drain. The usefulness of preslope in my mind is very limited, of course it is better than without, however the key to the success is how to prevent water get the pan.
So if you redgard the mortar bed then why even bother with a pan liner? Because seriously, if that redgard ever lets water by, you’re going to moisture trapped in the mortar between the pan liner and the redgard with no evaporative quality... the mortar will turn to sand very quickly and the redgard will separate.
@@warlok9 True but that is still much better than water destroy floor joists without pan liner. I don't think it can happen if you do your job right. My shower today is still as strong as new, it will last forever I am sure.
That seems like over kill to me. The water is gonna hit the pan weep mat or not. It isn’t like you are straining out debris. Just more money on a system I use to make more money then using pre done styrofoam pans.
A real man never done learning not matter what's I'm know what's I talking about I done plumbing for 20 plus years and everyday is something new and new never ending obviously we learn more front our mistakes bcz nobody is perfect
Great videos just a question I've been plumbing for over twenty years we never installed a pre slope but we always counter sunk the shower drain below the top of wood or floor. Would love to see a demo on that, we just flipped the drain upside-down penciled around it then cut wood out with saw all at 45degree angle to counter sink it think it is a good as pre slop with out the extra work or the extra thickness
You are a hack, thank you for keeping me slammed with work and close to retiring at just 50 years old. I salute you. What don’t you get as a plumber about slope? Do you plumb your drain lines level??? Unbelievable. Shit must flow uphill in your area.
Just a question why not pre slope and redgaurd so if water makes it through the red guard it will run out the sweep holes I am not a tile guy just wanting to build my shower correctly thanks
I pre-sloped, 40-mil, 1" topping then red-guarded the entire shower, bascially like having a full rubber liner under the tile. I didn't see any reason why this would be wrong. Sure it cost me a bucket of Red-guard, but since I was doing it all myself and was my first custom shower, I didn't want to cut corners. 4 months in, no leaks yet.
@@willinthearea6318 according to him, according to his criteria. I think Starr is wrong, and that's just another opinion. the point where he lost me was the stagnant water issue, and the rate of capillary action. meanwhile the pan is breaking down.
@@pauldhennessey I remember seeing that video. I believe one of the things he said was that when inside the mortar "the water is not gonna know which way is down". I'm paraphrasing but I'm very positive he did literally say "the water is not gonna know". Not sure why the consciousness of non-living things would be required in physics; perhaps he's a Shintoist. He also mentioned that it was gonna follow the path of the least resistance which at the time sounded somewhat reasonable, but why he'd think gravity ceases to exist when inside deck mud is beyond me. Having said that, I still think it's worthwhile for Isaac to do a mock up of a pan with no preslope.
Well what do you know. Great video.
How you like that sal? Chalk one up for the old schoolers huh? That was great
Sal, now that we see how well the pre slope appears to work in real lide, what are your thoughts about putting RedGard over the shower floor prior to installing tile over it?
Michael Dreher it doesn’t make sense to apply regard. If is not connected to the drain
@@michaeldreher7475 I have seen the drain in this type of system get completely blocked with efflorescence and mineral deposits, I have seen those deposits work their way between the liner and drain body, clamping ring and cause a leek. I have seen them fail because they were not installed properly. That does not mean that they always fail, it just means that in certain circumstances they can fail. So adding a waterproofing membrane on top will work, if you do it in such a way to make the liner redundant. That means transforming the "Water in, Water out" system to a sealed system. So the key is to seal the waterproofing to the walls, and to the drain, so no water at all gets to the mud. Problem is that this type of drain will allow water into the mud if it ever gets clogged or backs up. So the liner has to be there to contain any water in the event of a clogged drain. This is why I don't do Vinyl liners anymore. There is actually a way to use this kind of three piece drain without a liner, Look into the Divot Method.
Sal DiBlasi si you would recommend the divot method ? That’s what I been doing as it made more sense to me and also so I diddnt have to buy their expensive drain.
I love it when people do it by the book! I will not bore you with my experience the last 18 yrs of re-doing failed shower pans. There is a reason why engineers who design these systems go to school for a long time. To say “there is no need for it” is pretty much saying you know more than they do. Thumbs up to videos like these that teach the right way to do it.
But starttile said we dont need one, he's the smartest guy on here
I friggin love your videos you've really helped solidify everything I've researched into a level of total confidence that my new shower is totally waterproof.
HOWEVER! "A preslope takes 10 minutes"? Broooooo you're the TILE COACH it took me like 2 hours.
But no in all seriousness you're awesome. Thank you, I appreciate your videos.
Thanks dude!! I've debated this many times in FL. They say drop pans dont need it. I say every shower needs it. This is a prime example why to preslope and have proper water proofing. Thank you for doing the testing and video to explain it. You da man!!
*Isaac, to me, this is one of your best videos.* IMO, pre-slope is critical and this knowledge is fundamental. I just sent a link for this video to my tile guy who doesn't seem to get why I am insisting on pre-slope.
Easily the best video I’ve seen which gives such a clear and concise demonstration of the mechanics of a custom shower pan system. Many thanks for this incredible educational video!
This video is 110% correct! I remodel bathrooms and whenever I take out someone's existing shower pan it is full of water and it stinks. In some cases the mortar is starting to fail. The few I have removed with a pre-slope are always in great shape. As Isaac stated, you may not have an issue with placing the liner flat on the sub-floor but it's just a matter of time. If you want your shower to last more than 10 years, do the pre-slope!
Where the shower drain grill meets the mortar is not sealed. That's were the water is going. If he wanted to prove the pre slope works he would have red guarded over the center of the including the drain. There is no seal where the plastic meets the the the pan. Am I correct that the showers you are remodeling also do not have a water membrane on top of the pan.
@@theamericanopry I don't understand the question? "...also do not have a water membrane on top of the pan?"
@@torre1481 Red Guard
you dont have a clue@@theamericanopry
You make the best videos I have seen. I am a carpenter literally on the opposite side of you in northeast of New England. I am not a tile expert, but you have answered so many questions that others cannot without me even asking!
Thank you! 🙏 🙏 💪
Finally… a. video that makes me feel confident for decision of doing a pre-slope. 💯
Excellent demo of how a proper shower floor/liner works. Conventional is the only way to go!
Great video! I worked for a custom home builder all through college. I worked with a lot of the subs and remember back then (1986-1990) they always built pre-slopes. I hardly see them built anymore. My shower does not have one. 5 years after owning this house I'm getting ready to rip this shower out and build a nice custom walk-through shower. Also, I have seen recently guys coating the deck mud with red guard. I assume they think doing that is necessary because there is no pre-slope. A flat liner will ALWAYS hold some water, and eventually weaken the mud.
I totally agree with the pre slope. Would be great to do the exact same video or presentation without the pre slope. And see how much water sits in the pan.
I like this guy, he puts some care and attention into his work. I love his experiments, that's what progress is all about.
@@TileCoach Thank you Isaac. You show a lot of character and integrity in your work. Most guys just put down whatever and when they get home, they don't even contemplate new solutions. You have a great attitude towards your work and your service to others. That's a rare quality in men these days. Very honored to watch your videos, it's a joy to learn so much from a guy with great principles.
Several youtube tilers say we don't need a pre-slope. I always do one anyway, and now I can say why. Thanks for this detailed explanation. Every tiler should see this.
Ted Weddell preslope helpless do the waterproof before
@@marcopoulin1897 🤣 how does water drain with no slope? Magic right?
@@bolerdweller water travels to the least resistance, it will find the drain eventually.
@@howtodoitdude1662 eventually I guess. Put the drain higher than the water and your pan is now saturated
Nice demonstration! Back in the day roofers used to install hot mop pan's not only were they not presloped but they would also get tar in the weep holes. With the holes clogged with tar the water would stay in the mortar & over time minerals would seep out of the dry pack mortar against the walls. This would leave nasty deposits at perimeter of floor. Nice job on your floating its nice to know there is still setters out there that have skills installing mortar. I have been doing showers for over 4 decades & i have not ever had a floated curb carry water over the curb. What scares me more is folks who put screws thru cementitious backer board & penetrate the membrane over the curb depending on caulking to control water for 20 or 30 years or more. keep up the good work!
Your testing videos are entertaining and cool to see how everything functions behind the scenes.
Love when you do these man!! 🙌🏽
This is an awesome video! I am a rookie as far as shower floors but this explained so much. The effectiveness of pre slope and why I would not want to put a waterproof membrane directly underneath the tile. Deck mud, looks like the way to go for me.
thank you for this one! I was left a widow awhile back and he left me with a half finished bathroom remodel . All I have left to do is the shower ~ I think I can do it after watching most of your videos ....
What a great video, no one that I know of has shown anything like this. Good job. You also said not to red guard the bed, which makes sense to me. I've always applied red guard before I laid the tile. I can now see why you shouldn't, I know many have done the same thing. Thank you for this test.
Great video! Different schools of thought, at the end we all benefit from this
Dude , I promise you this , you are spot on!!!!!!!!!!!
Most of the drains I’ve put in also have drainage Channels in the threads of the stem. Did you by chance seal that area to insure all the water was forced through the weep holes. It doesn’t have any bearing on the conclusion but it just seems too fast for those small holes to drain all that water. The pre-slope is clearly a must have. You confirmed that for the unbelievers. Great vid.
Right, there a bunch of channels for water besides plugging the drain
I appreciate his work as it brings light to the issue. However, we are not unbelievers, that's an unwitting way to deviate from the point at hand. We question and challenge what we want to make certain of and this has nothing to do with belief or unbelief!
Glad to be the 300th like! Isaac that was an awesome demonstration of the water-in/water-out system. I have always thought of the deck mud as a sponge, that's the best way to visualize it. I tell people all the time who as me how did water get past their shower tiles, that the grout lines are just sponges, people think mortar is waterproof. this useful visual shows otherwise. It still prefer doing the Schluter pre-formed shower pans which are a sealed system, as opposed to a water in/water out system.
Hello from Greece .Thank you very much for simplicity and directness .
Yasoo malaka lol
I use to work for greck persone nice guy
Brother you’re an amazing coach thank you for this excellent lesson
This one really helped me understand so much more I didn’t understand how porous it was and how a preslope works
I just reakized Ive been watching your videos and im not subscribed, so I subscribed! Thanks for the educational videos
I learned a lot from this video, nice job.
Thank you for the video. Stuff like this teaches more than just telling everyone they need a pre-slope just because. Thanks again.
Great video. It would be good to do a comparison mock-up with no preslope.
You think the sun would work better if it came out of the west jakaja
Great video. We need to know the difference without preslope for sure.
@@DreyDreyDrey there is none
@@marcoshoffner1738 What nonsense are you talking about.....if its an experiment it needs a control.
I just ripped apart my shower floor. The clamping ring was just sitting on top of the drain assembly. No putty, just sitting on top. The membrane was tight between the clamping ring and the drain cap receiver. Yet there was a big leak from the drain area outward toward the wall. Damn builders !
@@TileCoach My sub floor wasn't level. So I did a mortar slope under the pan liner. This way any water on the liner will go toward the drain. What do you think ? I'm still gonna put a 2" dry pack slope on the liner with 1/4" slope for every foot though.
Like you don't have enough peanuts already, I think you should have tiled that test box before you tore it apart then did the water test. It would be wild to see how much water passes through the grout lines on a floor!
You be surprised if open up shower floor packing was saturated in water NO SLOP NO RUN OFF 110% NEEDED
Whats the point of that, the test was to show that it work in the event water gets in. A better test would be to do a preslope vs no preslope to see the difference.
@@hereticxxx9317 that’s easy poor water on a flat surface and see how long in stays..
ok but the pan is saturated and there for compromised. if the pan is saturated hasn't the fail clock started?
I do preslope cause I was taught that way but if the pan is saturated it's done and will not ever dry out.
@@IdemRedd I've demoed showers new and decades old,the mud IS ALWAYS MOIST and stays that way and this test proves it.
Bro absolutely love this footage and it has inspired me who ever taught you would be proud
Really nice demo, but I think all you proved is that weep holes work! Preslope/No Preslope debate is an interesting one. On the other hand, I am in the process of taking out our 70 year old tile shower floor. No preslope, no waterproof membrane, no lead pan, no copper pan, just a layer of what looks like tarpaper over the subfloor and up the wall about an inch! What did they do back then that allowed these showers to last so long!
I've learned a lot watching your videos bro. Thanks for posting all of this.
Pre-slope is a must if you want a shower to last. I replaced a shower floor for a realtor friend of mine, the drain flange was sitting on top of the plywood and whoever did the shower just ran the liner flat on the plywood and over the drain flange, so there was a hump all the way around where it went up on the flange. The shower was only 5 years old and so saturated that water was still standing on top of the tile after hours of using it.
That's a problem with mud bed slope on top of the liner, not the preslope under the liner.
Awesome. Very helpful. Don’t stop pumping out the video
Even with proof, lazy people will STILL argue how you don't need this just to cut corners and leave the site faster, keep up the good work Isaac! Don't pay attention to certain "pros" out there arguing against this, I stopped watching all others since they're all spreading bad info, whatever installer thinks this is wrong needs to reevaluate their job choice.
OH---WELL if the PAN LINER MANUFACTURER recommends it then it must be LEGIT! C'MON DUDE! They're trying to sell products. I can't believe you even said that.
I'm no expert for sure and I have watched hours of videos before redoing my downstairs shower (it will be my first one). I get the pre-slope. Great Idea. Not to impressed with the test. Should have done a side by side comparison with no pre-slope and also with out the drain mat under the mud bed. It would give a better idea as to how the two compare. Regardless, water contains food for mold as does the human body as it is washed off and goes down into the leak source. I agree with some of the comments the test should include tile and grout with a couple spots simulating cracked tile and worn out grout or even a crack in the seam along the wall. the test was great to show the weep holes working but I still have issues with having the drain mat in there for the test. In the real world water takes forever to get to those weep holes. By the time it does, like anything in a home that has water incursion, there is usually alot of work to repair.
Anthony Knapp it doesnt matter preslope or not if your water proof leak WTF
The key is not to have any water penetration in the first place. This video demonstrates that you should expect waterproofing failures.
Issac awesome video! Have you considered this mockup without the use of Schluter Troba to compare the drainage efficiency?
great demonstration
You should have done a side by side with a mock up that didn't have a pre-slope. That's the only way to definitively show that a pre slope works as its supposed to
Not even necessary. Within 3 minutes, he had more than 95% of that water drained into the bucket below. Gravity alone is all the proof you need that water would pool around a drain lip without a pre-slope.
In my 40 years in this biz I’ve never seen this in action, just did it because it was how I was trained to do. I have to say I was amazed at how well the weep holes drained. One of your best videos. Would have need nice to see how the no slope pan would have faired as well. Thanks for this!
Isaac your the man I've been wanting to do this exact mock up. Pre slope rocks. Send this to Starr tile and the other hacks on here that say no pre slope! Love your channel brother
Lol!!! Hell ya! You are a lot better than Bobby!!!
thanks for the explanation. i see some saying not necessary but this makes sense to me
Dude keep these test up this is super helpful
Bro! Much respect! Thank you for all the time and energy you pour into these videos!
God bless you!
Great clip! Right to the point and clearly explained.First clip I would show my crew. Glad you showed the TCNA standards.
And as you so succinctly pointed out, why not preslope? It takes 10 minutes and guarantees the water will be directed toward the weep holes in a shorter time than the same water on a flat surface waiting for the capillary action to take place sometime in the future. In a perfect world, a guy would use self-spacing tiles to absolutely minimize the grout exposure, then seal what grout there was (
I would like to see how fast the water goes through once its tiled and grouted
when installing a pre slope on wood floor, do you need to put tar paper and wire mess before your sand mix or thinset on the wood floor before sand mix? i wish you have a video on the proper way to install a preslope on wood. thanks
Yes. 15lb minimum roofing paper then your mesh. I use a plastic version from Mapei. But metal will work. Just tired of scraping up my hands.
Thanks TileCoach! Great Video
I dont get it....your picture shows the concrete than the liner than more concrete " the pre sloop". But the video is concrete on top of the some bubbly mesh drain sheet? With water droplets? Someone explain how this was comparable to what's on pictured on paper..Please explain
Good grief you're amazing, brother.
Great video! So am I understanding it right? The preslope is a secondary drain if or when water gets past the tile and grout?
That is correct
@@TileCoach Thanks!
Great video. You show that a pre-slope works. But you would need to do a similar build and test without a pre-slope and see if the results are the same. Then pull the deck mud out and see if indeed there are puddles. But do know that the laws of physics dictate that there is a principle that is stronger than gravity (up to a certain height of water column). and that will draw the water to an even distribution throughout the mud.
Dude you're doing a great job I love you exclamation
Rene Murrieta !!!
Isaac--you said it would be a bad idea to put Red Gard or similar on the shower pan, but wouldn't that only direct more water down the drain? Furthermore, if any did get past the Red Gard, no problem, as that would be caught by the pan liner and directed out the weep holes?
Good teacher👍🏽
Isaac thank you, that test alone showed me what I needed to see to better understand. Are you available to speak with (and yes I'll pay you for your time)? I live in Texas and I miss California's beautiful weather. You do an amazing job thank you sir
Outstanding video!! Well done!!
Awesome Test.... In order: Do a; Pre slope, Rubber liner, either thin layer of gavel or a channel mat, then mortar..... Sweet!!!!
Help! With, the pre-slope, deck, tile etc. my shower floor is going to be a couple of inches higher than the rest of the bathroom floor. Yes, I will have a curb, but I just realized there is going to be a floor height difference. Is this typical?
I'll try it Monday without the drain mat.
Got me sold buddy on preslope 😎
Super detailed. Love the way you explain things!.
Great video thank you for all your help.
excellent video! anyone had doubts about putting in a pre slope, this video proves you need one!
You guys ever use ready to tile shower base for base/standard size shower area. A lot of my customer prefer the acrylic shower base because they don't have to worry about cleaning the grout on a tile floor.
why use a tileable shower base, if your customers don't want tile?
I prefer a preformed, non tile floor pan. Never had a problem, never will.
That's one extra step I've always taken, it's just common sense!, great vid!
Yes sir this a no brainers this is why there's chanes and weeping holes in tightening ring ,the plumbing manufacture made the 3 part drain to work to release water
Fungus foot!! My previous home had a two-person walk-in tile shower with no pre-slope. I watched the tile guy build it; it never occurred to me there was any error.
The outside of my left foot always had what I thought was athletes foot. I would get it mostly under control with sprays, but it would always come back- same exact place, nowhere else.
One day I accidentally stepped a little closer to my corner of the shower and it felt extra slippery. I got down to examine the area and found it was quite slimy. So I scrubbed it with bleach, and a few days later it was back. The slimy corner was nearest where my left foot stood every day, sometimes twice a day, when I took a shower, my back to the showerhead.
Since my shower was used most, I believe my side always had the most moisture, and the dead corner grew fungus, which was transmitted every single day to the closest body part, my lateral left foot! Yuck.
I sold that house. I’m building a cabin now-diy. I just put in a pre-slope for my shower.
It took me more than 10 minutes, but it was my first time.
Did you disclose this when you sold it?
So instead of fixing the problem you passed it on to someone else. Stay classy...
Great explanation / video , easy to understand .
i think that the preslope gets the max volume of water down the drain even though the bed mortar will remain damp. the 'damp' water will remain in the pores of the sand grains and never run out. so, if there is a break in the waterproofing membrane, with preslope there will not be any significant stagnant water volume to flow out and damage structural timbers below.
What drain did you use in this? I recently looked at an Oatey 3pc drain and found it to have inherent design flaws; most obvious was that when assembled, the weep holes are 50% blocked by the drain base then the drainage is further restricted by the neck of the clamping ring. While this might function properly at install, anyone who has ever inspected a shower drain that has been used for awhile can attest that drains tend to collect some sort of gelatinous gunk. I presume the gunk being a mixture of organic compounds mixed with soap scum and mineral deposits. Combined with the flow restrictions already mentioned, this could easily clog at which time water will begin to pool. This forces the system to be wholly dependent on the silicone seal between the drain base and the pan liner to prevent leakage. While silicone to pvc can have a good mechanical bond, it isn’t always water tight. Even if it was water tight at install, over time (due to thermal expansion and floor flex) could lose bond over time. So, while a pan/drain could easily pass a water test when installed, it could fail months or years down the road due to use. What is worse, is that a failure could be avoided if the drain was maintained better. While simply cleaning the weep holes could eliminate any pooling, though even if it were possible to unscrew the drain barrel (its not) the Oatey drain is impossible to clean due to the drain holes being blocked by the neck of the clamp ring. Turning the clamp ring upside down could allow better access to the weep holes but since the drain channels are only on one side (the bottom) this would eliminate drain channels between the ring and the liner. I would appreciate if you would take a look at this for yourself and if possible recommend a better 3 pc drain for use in a WIWO system. Thanks!
This exact test but wait a month to see if there is still water droplets on the pan liner.
Great video. However, I think top coating the pan with red guard is a good idea because in real world you do not want your pan soaked like this, where the water will never dry and mold will grow like crazy. I coated my shower and I am very pleased to see the grout line dry very fast. I also used 2ftX1ft tile and linear drain. The usefulness of preslope in my mind is very limited, of course it is better than without, however the key to the success is how to prevent water get the pan.
So if you redgard the mortar bed then why even bother with a pan liner? Because seriously, if that redgard ever lets water by, you’re going to moisture trapped in the mortar between the pan liner and the redgard with no evaporative quality... the mortar will turn to sand very quickly and the redgard will separate.
@@warlok9 True but that is still much better than water destroy floor joists without pan liner. I don't think it can happen if you do your job right. My shower today is still as strong as new, it will last forever I am sure.
Great video bro. I always wondered about that. If the water actually saturates
great video for do it "yourselfer"!
Great video👍. Do you still use or recommend pvc liners? Do the organic compounds eventually clog the weep holes?
I especially like the drainage mat. I should do that on my installs going forward.
That seems like over kill to me. The water is gonna hit the pan weep mat or not. It isn’t like you are straining out debris. Just more money on a system I use to make more money then using pre done styrofoam pans.
Perfect... Understood everything
Thank you
A real man never done learning not matter what's I'm know what's I talking about I done plumbing for 20 plus years and everyday is something new and new never ending obviously we learn more front our mistakes bcz nobody is perfect
Isaac, your videos are very helpful.. Do you have one showing the install of the pre-slope ?
how much slope should it be per foot?
Great videos just a question I've been plumbing for over twenty years we never installed a pre slope but we always counter sunk the shower drain below the top of wood or floor. Would love to see a demo on that, we just flipped the drain upside-down penciled around it then cut wood out with saw all at 45degree angle to counter sink it think it is a good as pre slop with out the extra work or the extra thickness
You are a hack, thank you for keeping me slammed with work and close to retiring at just 50 years old. I salute you. What don’t you get as a plumber about slope? Do you plumb your drain lines level??? Unbelievable. Shit must flow uphill in your area.
Lmao
Great video from a guy serious with what he'd done.
Just a question why not pre slope and redgaurd so if water makes it through the red guard it will run out the sweep holes I am not a tile guy just wanting to build my shower correctly thanks
I pre-sloped, 40-mil, 1" topping then red-guarded the entire shower, bascially like having a full rubber liner under the tile. I didn't see any reason why this would be wrong. Sure it cost me a bucket of Red-guard, but since I was doing it all myself and was my first custom shower, I didn't want to cut corners. 4 months in, no leaks yet.
Isaac, how about the same test without pre-slope?
wanda krupinski Why? Just to watch it puddle up? That test is not needed, that’s why. 🤦♀️
@@catlady8324 Starr Tile made a mockup with no preslope and it passed with flying colors.
@@willinthearea6318 according to him, according to his criteria. I think Starr is wrong, and that's just another opinion. the point where he lost me was the stagnant water issue, and the rate of capillary action. meanwhile the pan is breaking down.
@@papahansel3136 Starr lost me again when he stated that there is no gravity in a shower pan therefore preslope is not needed. I kid you not.
@@pauldhennessey I remember seeing that video. I believe one of the things he said was that when inside the mortar "the water is not gonna know which way is down". I'm paraphrasing but I'm very positive he did literally say "the water is not gonna know". Not sure why the consciousness of non-living things would be required in physics; perhaps he's a Shintoist. He also mentioned that it was gonna follow the path of the least resistance which at the time sounded somewhat reasonable, but why he'd think gravity ceases to exist when inside deck mud is beyond me. Having said that, I still think it's worthwhile for Isaac to do a mock up of a pan with no preslope.
You should do one without the preslope and see how long it takes and if you get the same amount back into the bucket
Great video, just in time for me to try this method. Thanks for posting.
Great 👍 video. Good job
Very interesting pan design .
So moisture that is trapped between the deck mud and the tile/grout ever fully dry out? Does that grow mold over time?
wow. thank you for doing this!
Really good info
Very nice demonstration video.
Good job keep up the good videos did an awesome explanation👍
So you are saying their should be a pre slope below the liner and one on top of the liner right?
Wow this is enlightening
I never saw one of those drain screens before on top of a pan liner. I wonder how the preslope works without the screed?