My great uncle Lynn Blue was a B-17 pilot did his 25 missions and stayed to do even more, he survived the war. These bomber crews were so incredibly brave.
@@slimfastfret And when you think about how at the onset of the war the German U-Boats operated almost with impunity that average gives you an idea how bad things were at the end, the last year or so being on a German submarine was like a death sentence, and they never lacked for volunteers, that's what was really crazy.
My father was a navigator aboard a b17. He was shot down on his fourth mission during the infamous Munster raid. He spent the rest of the war in Stalag Luft one and was liberated by the Russians at the end of the war. He was a member of the infamous "bloody 100th" bomb group.
Love your channel. Very interesting. My grandpa did 22 Missions on a B24. He was a waist gunner . He was in the 448th Bombardment Group/714th Bombardment Squadron/8th Airforce. On 1/16/45 they were hit by Flak and crash landed in a Park in France. Then on 1/28/45 on a mission to Dortmund they were hit by FLAK and crash landed again. Both times no one was seriously injured. He did get hit my a small piece of FLAK in his face but it was very minor. He didn't get a Purple Heart. Later on in life, we was terrified of going on planes. He would close his eyes the whole time on a flight. Then finally, when he watched the Memphis Bell movie, he got PTSD really bad. From a little research, the last surviving member of his crew passed in 2008.
Your grandfather was a brave man, maybe you'll find the following interesting just to get a perspective from the other side. I'm from Germany and in my town is a bridge that has a lot of damage on the bridge piers. My aunt who married a bristish soldiers after the war told me why, one day she was at school when a relatively high ranking Wehrmacht person entered the classroom/school and told all boys over the age of 12 (some lied that they are 12 while they actually have been like 10 years old) that they must defend the fatherland and will have to work at the flak. My town was quite small back than but it was "important" because on the bridge are railways that lead to two different front parts, so we had like more flak than cars in the town, one day after an bomb alarm she went outside, when she walked by the bridge she saw her schoolmates, all have been dead and you couldn't tell who was who anymore, the bridge was destroyed but repaired in a very short time.
Great research. My Dad flew Ball Turret w/ 50 missions aggregated from 259 operational hours in combat w/ the 15th out of Foggia, Italy from Jan. - June 1944.
Fascinating stuff! My dad was a pilot officer flying Dakotas (C-47s) for the Royal Canadian Air Force in Burma, part of the Combat Cargo Task Force created to support the British 14th Army's drive on Mandalay. They were based at Imphal just inside India, and flew missions into the Irawaddy River basin in central Burma, a mix of combat air drops to British/Indian troops at the front line, and trips into forward airstrips just behind the lines. They were bounced by Japanese Oscars once, with several Dakotas shot down at a combat drop zone near a town called Schwebo. Beyond that the risks were mostly Japanese light AAA, the weather, and the jungle mountain ranges that lay between Imphal and Central Burma. Less dangerous in the scheme of things than driving a B-17, but he did 165 sorties, of which maybe 3/4 were combat support missions in Burma, the rest being cargo trips to other places in India. He came home and never flew again.
My uncle joined the Army Air Corp as a nineteen-year-old private in 1939. He arrived at Manila PI on October 25, 1941 in a troop ship after a nearly six week, five thousand mile trip. He was designated as a ‘gunner’ for the new contingent of B, C or D version B17 Bombers that had been rushed to the South Pacific. Most likely, he had limited, if any, training or flying experience in those early days when resources were limited and facilities at Clark AFB were primitive to say the least. Clearly, those early versions of the B17 contributed to the high loss rates. Excellent information on the various versions can be found at Wikipedia. It should be kept in mind that the B, C, and D versions did not have the dorsal or the tail guns. These and other deficiencies were addressed in the later E, F, and G versions of the Flying Fortress. Also, your video entitled “B17 Bomber Crew Member Gear” is exceptional. It must be viewed to fully understand the technology of that era and the B17s themselves. In today’s world, we get on an airplane, sit in a somewhat comfortable seat, put on a seat belt, and expect service from a host or hostess. That was not what the B17 offered and the primitive efforts to deal with the environment, especially in early B17 versions must have had a lot to do with the early and poor crew loss rates. In essence, it was an incredible effort to learn as you go and adjust as needed for a product that was first developed and built in the late 1930s. Finally, my uncle survived the bombing runs by the Imperial Japanese Air Force as they attacked Clark AFB around lunch time on December 8, 1941 and only a few hours after the bombing of Pearl Harbor. He made it back home in 1945, retired as a full colonel, and is buried at Arlington Natl. Cemetery. The book to read about those early days of the WWII in the Pacific was written by Walter Edmonds and entitled "They Fought With What They Had". Finally, your videos about the B17s are exceptional and fascinating and they really help to understand what happened in those days and why.
"Ack-ack" is Americans trying to say "Acht-Acht", German for "eight-eight". That was the German nickname for their 88mm Flak guns of different versions. Seems to be an American thing to butcher foreign languages wherever they find them - even today US GIs stationed here know jack when it comes to speaking German... even those who took lessons! XD Greetings from Germany
@@thomaskositzki9424 To be fair, most immigrants I've met butcher English too. Then again, they probably didn't have much of an opportunity to learn it wherever they came from.
Fascinating stuff. I had NO idea flak was that effective. Thank you. These statistics make me think that the 8'th and 15'th air forces after October '44, might have been smarter to leave more of their crew and defensive guns at home during missions from this point onwards. The weight saving and aerodynamic gains from removing the top and bottom turrets and sealing up the waste gun positions surely would be helpful and increase the aircraft's speed. Plus - and more importantly - less crew means less people dying if the plane gets shot down. ☮
In the 1960s the Memphis Belle was sitting derelict at the Memphis Army Depot. I used to play in her. She was striped and covered in bird crap. I have seen her new look and am happy she is still a monument to appreciate
Yes, isn’t that something it took so long but the Belle was finally brought back and preserved as she should be. I was able to meet Robert Morgan in the early 2000’s, along with Paul Tibbets the same day. Both are now gone unfortunately but the opportunity to briefly speak with them is something I will always remember, at least I was able to have them sign a picture of them next to the aircraft they each flew.
@Henry J. I wasn’t allowed down there. The depot was close to our house back then. When we moved to Whitehaven we had a creek that ran to the river, by then I guess they were gone. Church on the River? The old Submarine Races, once I could drive, LOL
I have a purple heart that was given to my grandfather for the death of his brother. If I remember correctly he went down over the Baltic returning from a bombing run. Everyone bailed out ok, but they then froze in the icy waters. They were in a B-17. I dont remember Bombers flying over the Baltic, but thats what I was told.
My father was a B-17 copilot in the 8th AF at Snetterton Heath in 1944. He survived the Frantic II disaster at Poltava, Ukraine, when 100+ B-17s were destroyed on the ground by Luftwaffe bombing, completed his 35 missions, returned to the US, and was discharged from the USAAF at Luke AB in AZ before VJ day. I attended several 8th AF reunions with him in the 1990's. I got the impression that about 50% of the Veterans attending the reunions had been shot down and became German POWs. This led me to the conclusion that roughly 1/3 of the crews completed their tours, 1/3 were short down and captured, and 1/3 were killed. Thank you for your in-depth reviews of the evidence from WWII. Well done! I'm sure you;ve looked at the post-war bombing survey reports. I found it interesting that German military production actually increased in 1943 and 1944 because bombing destroyed civilian services - shops, groceries, restaurants, entertainment, etc and freed up their workers for war production.
I just gotta say thank you for providing this information. I have loved the B-17 ever since I got the Microprose game as a six year old so I’ve done a fair amount of digging. But saying that I have learned something from each of your videos and I know that if I were to show them to someone who hasn’t done the digging I have they would learn a ton about the best plane ever made.
I find your channel remarkably interesting. My late Father was child during WW2 in Suffolk where there were several aerodromes that were used by the 8th Air Force. One was Gt Ashfield home of the 385th Bomb Group known as Van's Valiants. As a child he could vividly remember the great formations flying off early in the morning and watching them come back in the afternoon in loose formation, Civilians in the UK who lived near the aerodromes never knew fully what really went on there but there are many memorials in East Anglian Churchyards to the 'Yanks' as the locals called them. So, their sacrifices will always be remembered. I have visited the American Cemetery at Madingley near Cambridge and it is very sobering to read the names of these young men who came from over the 'pond' to fight and give us the freedom we have today.
pity that the data for crew losses isn't readily available for the ETO. Frostbite was commonly cited as being a major issue, this in addition to those WIA, KIA, POW from bombers that were lost or returned damaged. Another was what we call today as PTSD and was a very real issue.
My father completed 11 combat missions in an 8th Air Force B-17 bomber, being shot down after dropping their bombs. He was captured, and held in a German POW camp for 18 months.
This was a VERY insightful digest of the statistical data on the 8th AF. I am into WW2 topics for a good 25 years now. When reading on the strategic bombing campaign against Nazi Germany I always thought "Well 6% loss ratio, doesn't sound too awful to me." Now I know better. Greetings from Germany
It wasn't a matter of the availability of long range fighter escorts, it was a matter of the fighter's being allowed to do it. The narrative that the fighter's in theater before December of 44 not having the range to escort the bombers all the way to their targets is a myth, and it's a myth that was intentionally started by the Bomber Mafia Generals who denied the fighter's at the time the use of drop tanks because they were trying to prove their concept that the bombers could fight their way to the targets and back unescorted. After the high loss of bombers and crews from those early unescorted missions the Bomber Mafia Generals got real busy covering their asses so they wouldn't get drug in front of a Congressional inquiry concerning the loss of aircraft and crews, so they had the press corps print stories about how none of the fighter's in theater at the time had the range and even went as far as to falsify the information in a late war report on fighter ranges, it's because over the years that aviation writer's have used the information from the wartime newspaper reports, the falsified late war report on fighter ranges and each other's books as source material that the myth of the early fighter's not having the range and that the P51 came along and saved the day has persisted over the years. However in recent years it's been proven using existing records from the war that both the P47's and P38's in theater at the time could have escorted the bombers to every single target they went to. First off both P47's and P38's had already escorted bombers over Berlin weeks before P51's did it, starting with the P47C-2 they had the shackles to carry drop tanks, and with the advent of the P47D-15 they had the under wing pylons that could use the US made all metal pressurized drop tanks, it was this very configuration that was used to escort bombers over Berlin by P47's before the P51's ever did it, delivery records show that the 56th Fighter Group had already been receiving the P47D-15 in April of 1943, four months before "Black Thursday". Also, as far as P38's go, the extreme long range mission to shoot down Admiral Yamamoto in the Pacific which was much longer than any escort mission in Europe was done also four months before Black Thursday. The time that deep penetration missions were suspended wasn't done so that enough "long range fighter's" could be obtained, it was done so that enough drop tanks could be produced and sent to Europe. The fact is early on the Bomber Mafia Generals denied the use of drop tanks for the fighter's on escort missions, yet at the same time the same fighter units would scrounge up the British made pressed paper drop tanks for fighter sweep missions and the records from those missions show that had they been allowed to use them on escort missions they could have gone all the way to the targets with the bombers, the Bomber Mafia Generals that ran US Army aviation are the same people that dictated before the war that all fighter's were to be designed without provisions for mounting drop tanks, if you look at the first variant's of US fighter's they weren't able to mount drop tanks, however through pressure from several sources including Lt Benjamin Kelsey who was responsible for aircraft development for the US Army the Bomber Mafia Generals relented and allowed fighter's to be made with mounts for drop tanks after the earliest variant's which all stayed stateside as training aircraft, every single variant of P47 and P38 that was in the ETO had provisions for mounting drop tanks, it was just a matter of them being denied the use of them early on because the Bomber Mafia Generals were trying to prove their concept. One thing that's important to note is that no fighter could take off with the bombers and fly all the way to the targets and back on a deep penetration mission not even the P51, because of the difference in speed and altitude that the fighter's and bombers could achieve maximum range all the fighter's had to use the relay system to make it to a deep penetration target, the first thing people want to do is look up on Wikipedia the maximum range of something like the P51 then Google the distance from London to Berlin and based on that they believe that planes like the P51 would fly with the bombers all the way there and back, it's far more complicated than that, that maximum range doesn't account for a large group of planes taking time to take off meaning that the first one's off the ground had to circle around overhead while the rest took off and formed up with them, then they had to meet up with the bombers at which point they were forced to fly at a speed to stay with them that wasn't their most fuel efficient speed to fly at, compounded with the fact that the bombers never flew in a straight line from England to their target, there was always a "dog leg" or two planned into their mission to confuse the enemy that added a fair amount of distance and time to the mission. The way it worked was one flight of fighter's would take off and meet up with the bombers and escort them part of the way to the target flying at a speed which reduced their maximum range, then an hour or so later another flight of fighter's would take off and flying at a speed which gave them maximum range and was faster than the bombers would catch up to them and relieve the first relay of fighter's, the second flight of fighter's was usually the one that got them over the target and would have enough fuel for 15 minutes of combat time, sometime after coming off the target a third flight of fighter's would relieve the second flight so they could fly back at the speed that increased their range, depending on the range to the target, the flight path of the bombers going to it and the type of fighter's used it took 3 or sometimes even 4 relays of fighter's to escort the bombers all the way there and back, gives you a lot of respect for the mission planner for the fighter's who was the guy that had to figure out when the different flights of fighter's had to take off to meet up with another flight on the relay to relieve them, and sometimes due to navigation errors on either the part of the bombers or a relay of fighter's the bombers had to go alone during a leg of the mission because a flight of fighter's couldn't find them and the fighter's that were with them had to turn for home or they'd have run out of fuel before they made it back. The whole thing about fighter's escorting bombers was far more complicated than people think it was, it wasn't just a matter of fighter's taking off with the bombers and flying all the way there and back with them.
It might have been a little higher, when you consider that a bomber might have been "destroyed", but the crew survived. For instance, the plane was so damaged it could not fly again, but it landed back at base with most or all the crew alive. Also, the bomber may have been shot down, but the crew bailed out and spent the rest of the war as a pow. Be that as it may be, if we do accept the 21% rate, it means there was a 79% chance of not surviving a tour of duty! That's a scary stastistic. It's easy to see why "Bomber Harris" switched to area night bombing for the RAF.
Wow very interesting. I wonder how so many books and documentaries have been so drastically over exaggerating these numbers. I just finished Masters of the Air and even with all the research and data listed in the book they also stick to the incredible loss rates commonly accepted. I wonder how this over estimation has become so prevalent amongst WWII aviation historians.
One factor you are overlooking is crew experience. There was most likely a disproportionate rate of loss in the first five missions (off the top of my head) compared to seasoned crews. Is there any breakdown when during a tour a crew was most likely to be shot down? A second question would be how frequently individual crew members were replaced versus the the whole crew.
_Is there any breakdown when during a tour a crew was most likely to be shot down?_ Don't know if there is for the USAAF, but the RAF did research during the war which looked at losses versus crew experience in Bomber Command.
My dad was a tail gunner on a B17 during ww2 over Europe he flew 38 missions 10 more than he had to in which he was rewarded with Distinguished Flying Cross and the Air Medal he managed to be sent back to USA to Texas to teach gunnery school and then home shortly before Christmas 1945 he was shot down twice landing in the channel both times after losing 3 engines 1st time throwing every thing out they could to get hat far from Germany 2nd time running out of fuel do to being shot up so bad
My late father was a B17 pilot in the 8th AAF and completed 35 missions in August 1944. While going through several aircraft- his crew stayed together and returned to the states without any Purple Hearts !
I love these videos, I've learned a lot and it really puts into perspective what these guys went through. Would you mind doing the B 29 superfortress Next?
damn in 1943 imagine the commander walking into the room and be like, "look to your left, look to your right, now look at the person infront of you and now behind you. including yourself 4 of y'all aint gonna make it."
Great channel. Hopeful to see it expand. You should reach out to Greg's Planes and Automobiles; one of the few other channels that provides this level of accuracy.
What wrecked the Luftwaffe was fighter pilot losses: Jan. 1944 = 292 Feb. 1944 = 434 Mar. 1944 = 511 Apr. 1944 = 447 May 1944 = 578 That's 2,262 fighter pilots lost in just five months. The Luftwaffe simply didn't have the capacity to replace losses of that magnitude, especially once the effects of the attacks on German oil production took hold.
Great video! I noticed the flak losses spiked after fighter losses fell, was that just the same flak loss rate representing a higher % of a smaller number of total losses or did flak become more effective (ie radar aiming improvements or something similar).
interesting question but the raid on Berlin was still about 10% losses of the number in the raid, mostly due to Flak but I'm also certain that there would have been some due to fighters.
Never mind that the people were defending their homes, neighbors and cities at all costs. Of course, loss rates were high. The enemy pilots were just as motivated as our American pilots by patriotism, duty and the desire to protect their homes and families.
My dad got shot down and was taken pow. My mom and us kids paid a price for his behavior afterwards. It turned out he was tortured and made sterile. I found out when I did a DNA test many years later.
So about 4.000 Allies Bomber were lost to Germany in last 15 months before the war ended, but compare to this, up to 500 Allies Bomber were lost to Japan. (only 500? I call this bullshit). And how many Allies Bomber were lost to Italy?
You manage to post stuff I have thinking about. I winder how 5th AF losses stacked up against 8th and 25th? Particularly 17s and 24s in S Pacific before 29s came along.
The RAF accepted a 5% loss rate as being sustainable. That is out of 20 bombers sent out, 19 would return. However, a tour of duty in bomber command was 30 missions. Statistically, this meant no one should have completed a tour. The actual survival rate was about 30%. You were then rested for 6 + months and then had to complete a second tour of 30 missions.
Moral of the story is: Your life is not worth making the Government rich, or to commit overreach in policy not in keeping with established norms. Do not enlist. The Governments kids sure aren't.
Actually, quite the opposite. These boys died fighting back at Nazi Germany, not to "make the government rich." This was WWII, not Vietnam. It was a different type of war.
My great uncle Lynn Blue was a B-17 pilot did his 25 missions and stayed to do even more, he survived the war. These bomber crews were so incredibly brave.
Experienced crews tended to have a far higher survival rate (presumably due to superior skill, especially of the pilot).
To hell with that, I'm going to get in one of those nice safe jobs on a U-boat.
I hear germany is the best!
Yea, nothing like going to sea on a ship designed to sink.
3/4 of german submariners in WW2 didn't make it back home.
@@slimfastfret
And when you think about how at the onset of the war the German U-Boats operated almost with impunity that average gives you an idea how bad things were at the end, the last year or so being on a German submarine was like a death sentence, and they never lacked for volunteers, that's what was really crazy.
@@dukecraig2402 you got that right, sir. War is crazy.
My father was a navigator aboard a b17. He was shot down on his fourth mission during the infamous Munster raid. He spent the rest of the war in Stalag Luft one and was liberated by the Russians at the end of the war. He was a member of the infamous "bloody 100th" bomb group.
that Munster raid was a rough mission right before Black Thursday
Love your channel. Very interesting. My grandpa did 22 Missions on a B24. He was a waist gunner . He was in the 448th Bombardment Group/714th Bombardment Squadron/8th Airforce. On 1/16/45 they were hit by Flak and crash landed in a Park in France. Then on 1/28/45 on a mission to Dortmund they were hit by FLAK and crash landed again. Both times no one was seriously injured. He did get hit my a small piece of FLAK in his face but it was very minor. He didn't get a Purple Heart. Later on in life, we was terrified of going on planes. He would close his eyes the whole time on a flight. Then finally, when he watched the Memphis Bell movie, he got PTSD really bad. From a little research, the last surviving member of his crew passed in 2008.
Your grandfather was a brave man, maybe you'll find the following interesting just to get a perspective from the other side. I'm from Germany and in my town is a bridge that has a lot of damage on the bridge piers. My aunt who married a bristish soldiers after the war told me why, one day she was at school when a relatively high ranking Wehrmacht person entered the classroom/school and told all boys over the age of 12 (some lied that they are 12 while they actually have been like 10 years old) that they must defend the fatherland and will have to work at the flak. My town was quite small back than but it was "important" because on the bridge are railways that lead to two different front parts, so we had like more flak than cars in the town, one day after an bomb alarm she went outside, when she walked by the bridge she saw her schoolmates, all have been dead and you couldn't tell who was who anymore, the bridge was destroyed but repaired in a very short time.
@@-Fux War is a total madness.
There are just too many horrifying stories.
May all souls rest in peace.
I sure as hell wouldn't want to fly a combat mission in a Liberator. Kudos to him.
Great research. My Dad flew Ball Turret w/ 50 missions aggregated from 259 operational hours in combat w/ the 15th out of Foggia, Italy from Jan. - June 1944.
Well done, thanks for this video.
Dude just found this channel, you deserve a sub more than almost anyone I've found in recent memory. Best of luck my dude!
Fascinating stuff! My dad was a pilot officer flying Dakotas (C-47s) for the Royal Canadian Air Force in Burma, part of the Combat Cargo Task Force created to support the British 14th Army's drive on Mandalay. They were based at Imphal just inside India, and flew missions into the Irawaddy River basin in central Burma, a mix of combat air drops to British/Indian troops at the front line, and trips into forward airstrips just behind the lines. They were bounced by Japanese Oscars once, with several Dakotas shot down at a combat drop zone near a town called Schwebo. Beyond that the risks were mostly Japanese light AAA, the weather, and the jungle mountain ranges that lay between Imphal and Central Burma. Less dangerous in the scheme of things than driving a B-17, but he did 165 sorties, of which maybe 3/4 were combat support missions in Burma, the rest being cargo trips to other places in India. He came home and never flew again.
My uncle joined the Army Air Corp as a nineteen-year-old private in 1939. He arrived at Manila PI on October 25, 1941 in a troop ship after a nearly six week, five thousand mile trip. He was designated as a ‘gunner’ for the new contingent of B, C or D version B17 Bombers that had been rushed to the South Pacific. Most likely, he had limited, if any, training or flying experience in those early days when resources were limited and facilities at Clark AFB were primitive to say the least. Clearly, those early versions of the B17 contributed to the high loss rates. Excellent information on the various versions can be found at Wikipedia. It should be kept in mind that the B, C, and D versions did not have the dorsal or the tail guns. These and other deficiencies were addressed in the later E, F, and G versions of the Flying Fortress.
Also, your video entitled “B17 Bomber Crew Member Gear” is exceptional. It must be viewed to fully understand the technology of that era and the B17s themselves. In today’s world, we get on an airplane, sit in a somewhat comfortable seat, put on a seat belt, and expect service from a host or hostess. That was not what the B17 offered and the primitive efforts to deal with the environment, especially in early B17 versions must have had a lot to do with the early and poor crew loss rates. In essence, it was an incredible effort to learn as you go and adjust as needed for a product that was first developed and built in the late 1930s.
Finally, my uncle survived the bombing runs by the Imperial Japanese Air Force as they attacked Clark AFB around lunch time on December 8, 1941 and only a few hours after the bombing of Pearl Harbor. He made it back home in 1945, retired as a full colonel, and is buried at Arlington Natl. Cemetery. The book to read about those early days of the WWII in the Pacific was written by Walter Edmonds and entitled "They Fought With What They Had". Finally, your videos about the B17s are exceptional and fascinating and they really help to understand what happened in those days and why.
My father referred to flak as “ack-ack.” It was so heavy it would darken the skies as they flew through it.
"Ack-ack" is Americans trying to say "Acht-Acht", German for "eight-eight".
That was the German nickname for their 88mm Flak guns of different versions.
Seems to be an American thing to butcher foreign languages wherever they find them - even today US GIs stationed here know jack when it comes to speaking German... even those who took lessons! XD
Greetings from Germany
@@thomaskositzki9424 To be fair, most immigrants I've met butcher English too. Then again, they probably didn't have much of an opportunity to learn it wherever they came from.
One of the best ww2 allied aviation channel on this platform!
Fascinating stuff.
I had NO idea flak was that effective.
Thank you.
These statistics make me think that the 8'th and 15'th air forces after October '44, might have been smarter to leave more of their crew and defensive guns at home during missions from this point onwards.
The weight saving and aerodynamic gains from removing the top and bottom turrets and sealing up the waste gun positions surely would be helpful and increase the aircraft's speed.
Plus - and more importantly - less crew means less people dying if the plane gets shot down.
☮
I believe waist gunners were removed sometime in 1945
Flak was that effective… yes and no. While it did bring down aircraft, Germany was literally firing 1000s of shells for every kill.
@@gooraway1 they went from 2 to, I believe 1, but always kept the one.
How certain are the losses to flak vs fighters? Is there corroboration from German records?
They might have tried Mosquitoes. No defensive guns but fast, crew of 2 and similar bomb load.
In the 1960s the Memphis Belle was sitting derelict at the Memphis Army Depot. I used to play in her. She was striped and covered in bird crap. I have seen her new look and am happy she is still a monument to appreciate
Yes, isn’t that something it took so long but the Belle was finally brought back and preserved as she should be. I was able to meet Robert Morgan in the early 2000’s, along with Paul Tibbets the same day. Both are now gone unfortunately but the opportunity to briefly speak with them is something I will always remember, at least I was able to have them sign a picture of them next to the aircraft they each flew.
@@tieroneactual2228 Tibbets spoke at one of my many Graduations form some school or another in the Air Force. Great guy.
@Henry J. I wasn’t allowed down there. The depot was close to our house back then. When we moved to Whitehaven we had a creek that ran to the river, by then I guess they were gone. Church on the River? The old Submarine Races, once I could drive, LOL
Man, these videos are professional.
Thanks for the comment. Video shooting, editing, and publishing was all new to me 3 months ago.
I have a purple heart that was given to my grandfather for the death of his brother. If I remember correctly he went down over the Baltic returning from a bombing run. Everyone bailed out ok, but they then froze in the icy waters. They were in a B-17. I dont remember Bombers flying over the Baltic, but thats what I was told.
My father was a B-17 copilot in the 8th AF at Snetterton Heath in 1944. He survived the Frantic II disaster at Poltava, Ukraine, when 100+ B-17s were destroyed on the ground by Luftwaffe bombing, completed his 35 missions, returned to the US, and was discharged from the USAAF at Luke AB in AZ before VJ day.
I attended several 8th AF reunions with him in the 1990's. I got the impression that about 50% of the Veterans attending the reunions had been shot down and became German POWs. This led me to the conclusion that roughly 1/3 of the crews completed their tours, 1/3 were short down and captured, and 1/3 were killed.
Thank you for your in-depth reviews of the evidence from WWII. Well done! I'm sure you;ve looked at the post-war bombing survey reports. I found it interesting that German military production actually increased in 1943 and 1944 because bombing destroyed civilian services - shops, groceries, restaurants, entertainment, etc and freed up their workers for war production.
I just gotta say thank you for providing this information. I have loved the B-17 ever since I got the Microprose game as a six year old so I’ve done a fair amount of digging. But saying that I have learned something from each of your videos and I know that if I were to show them to someone who hasn’t done the digging I have they would learn a ton about the best plane ever made.
well done Video Sir....Bravo......
Thanks!
I find your channel remarkably interesting. My late Father was child during WW2 in Suffolk where there were several aerodromes that were used by the 8th Air Force. One was Gt Ashfield home of the 385th Bomb Group known as Van's Valiants. As a child he could vividly remember the great formations flying off early in the morning and watching them come back in the afternoon in loose formation, Civilians in the UK who lived near the aerodromes never knew fully what really went on there but there are many memorials in East Anglian Churchyards to the 'Yanks' as the locals called them. So, their sacrifices will always be remembered. I have visited the American Cemetery at Madingley near Cambridge and it is very sobering to read the names of these young men who came from over the 'pond' to fight and give us the freedom we have today.
pity that the data for crew losses isn't readily available for the ETO. Frostbite was commonly cited as being a major issue, this in addition to those WIA, KIA, POW from bombers that were lost or returned damaged. Another was what we call today as PTSD and was a very real issue.
With just a 21% chance of making it through your tour of duty, losing your mind over all the death and fear is quite understandable.
trying to deliver bombs in a flying frost freezer with a 200 mile per hour wind in your face.
As always, your presentation is informative and credible
Glad you think so!
Good Stuff !
My father completed 11 combat missions in an 8th Air Force B-17 bomber, being shot down after dropping their bombs. He was captured, and held in a German POW camp for 18 months.
This was a VERY insightful digest of the statistical data on the 8th AF.
I am into WW2 topics for a good 25 years now. When reading on the strategic bombing campaign against Nazi Germany I always thought "Well 6% loss ratio, doesn't sound too awful to me." Now I know better.
Greetings from Germany
Very good to see some proper analysis of these facts
Very interesting series of B17 videos. 🙏 Thanks.
Always admired B-17/24 crews. Major intestinal/testicular fortitude. Thank you all!
The wording is gold. ^^
Amazing video
lovely narration
Great info
6:13 even though they covered the island with a landing strip you can still see craters from artillery from the land battle months before.
Thanks for this work. It’s a fascinating science.
It wasn't a matter of the availability of long range fighter escorts, it was a matter of the fighter's being allowed to do it.
The narrative that the fighter's in theater before December of 44 not having the range to escort the bombers all the way to their targets is a myth, and it's a myth that was intentionally started by the Bomber Mafia Generals who denied the fighter's at the time the use of drop tanks because they were trying to prove their concept that the bombers could fight their way to the targets and back unescorted.
After the high loss of bombers and crews from those early unescorted missions the Bomber Mafia Generals got real busy covering their asses so they wouldn't get drug in front of a Congressional inquiry concerning the loss of aircraft and crews, so they had the press corps print stories about how none of the fighter's in theater at the time had the range and even went as far as to falsify the information in a late war report on fighter ranges, it's because over the years that aviation writer's have used the information from the wartime newspaper reports, the falsified late war report on fighter ranges and each other's books as source material that the myth of the early fighter's not having the range and that the P51 came along and saved the day has persisted over the years.
However in recent years it's been proven using existing records from the war that both the P47's and P38's in theater at the time could have escorted the bombers to every single target they went to.
First off both P47's and P38's had already escorted bombers over Berlin weeks before P51's did it, starting with the P47C-2 they had the shackles to carry drop tanks, and with the advent of the P47D-15 they had the under wing pylons that could use the US made all metal pressurized drop tanks, it was this very configuration that was used to escort bombers over Berlin by P47's before the P51's ever did it, delivery records show that the 56th Fighter Group had already been receiving the P47D-15 in April of 1943, four months before "Black Thursday".
Also, as far as P38's go, the extreme long range mission to shoot down Admiral Yamamoto in the Pacific which was much longer than any escort mission in Europe was done also four months before Black Thursday.
The time that deep penetration missions were suspended wasn't done so that enough "long range fighter's" could be obtained, it was done so that enough drop tanks could be produced and sent to Europe.
The fact is early on the Bomber Mafia Generals denied the use of drop tanks for the fighter's on escort missions, yet at the same time the same fighter units would scrounge up the British made pressed paper drop tanks for fighter sweep missions and the records from those missions show that had they been allowed to use them on escort missions they could have gone all the way to the targets with the bombers, the Bomber Mafia Generals that ran US Army aviation are the same people that dictated before the war that all fighter's were to be designed without provisions for mounting drop tanks, if you look at the first variant's of US fighter's they weren't able to mount drop tanks, however through pressure from several sources including Lt Benjamin Kelsey who was responsible for aircraft development for the US Army the Bomber Mafia Generals relented and allowed fighter's to be made with mounts for drop tanks after the earliest variant's which all stayed stateside as training aircraft, every single variant of P47 and P38 that was in the ETO had provisions for mounting drop tanks, it was just a matter of them being denied the use of them early on because the Bomber Mafia Generals were trying to prove their concept.
One thing that's important to note is that no fighter could take off with the bombers and fly all the way to the targets and back on a deep penetration mission not even the P51, because of the difference in speed and altitude that the fighter's and bombers could achieve maximum range all the fighter's had to use the relay system to make it to a deep penetration target, the first thing people want to do is look up on Wikipedia the maximum range of something like the P51 then Google the distance from London to Berlin and based on that they believe that planes like the P51 would fly with the bombers all the way there and back, it's far more complicated than that, that maximum range doesn't account for a large group of planes taking time to take off meaning that the first one's off the ground had to circle around overhead while the rest took off and formed up with them, then they had to meet up with the bombers at which point they were forced to fly at a speed to stay with them that wasn't their most fuel efficient speed to fly at, compounded with the fact that the bombers never flew in a straight line from England to their target, there was always a "dog leg" or two planned into their mission to confuse the enemy that added a fair amount of distance and time to the mission.
The way it worked was one flight of fighter's would take off and meet up with the bombers and escort them part of the way to the target flying at a speed which reduced their maximum range, then an hour or so later another flight of fighter's would take off and flying at a speed which gave them maximum range and was faster than the bombers would catch up to them and relieve the first relay of fighter's, the second flight of fighter's was usually the one that got them over the target and would have enough fuel for 15 minutes of combat time, sometime after coming off the target a third flight of fighter's would relieve the second flight so they could fly back at the speed that increased their range, depending on the range to the target, the flight path of the bombers going to it and the type of fighter's used it took 3 or sometimes even 4 relays of fighter's to escort the bombers all the way there and back, gives you a lot of respect for the mission planner for the fighter's who was the guy that had to figure out when the different flights of fighter's had to take off to meet up with another flight on the relay to relieve them, and sometimes due to navigation errors on either the part of the bombers or a relay of fighter's the bombers had to go alone during a leg of the mission because a flight of fighter's couldn't find them and the fighter's that were with them had to turn for home or they'd have run out of fuel before they made it back.
The whole thing about fighter's escorting bombers was far more complicated than people think it was, it wasn't just a matter of fighter's taking off with the bombers and flying all the way there and back with them.
Excellent comment. You should post this somewhere more permanent than a youtube comment. Maybe somewhere on reddit.
Dear god 😲 a 21% chance to survive the war! I had no idea it was that bad
It might have been a little higher, when you consider that a bomber might have been "destroyed", but the crew survived. For instance, the plane was so damaged it could not fly again, but it landed back at base with most or all the crew alive. Also, the bomber may have been shot down, but the crew bailed out and spent the rest of the war as a pow.
Be that as it may be, if we do accept the 21% rate, it means there was a 79% chance of not surviving a tour of duty! That's a scary stastistic. It's easy to see why "Bomber Harris" switched to area night bombing for the RAF.
I also have a copy of the 94th A group flight formation for the March 6, 44 raid
Wow very interesting. I wonder how so many books and documentaries have been so drastically over exaggerating these numbers. I just finished Masters of the Air and even with all the research and data listed in the book they also stick to the incredible loss rates commonly accepted. I wonder how this over estimation has become so prevalent amongst WWII aviation historians.
One factor you are overlooking is crew experience. There was most likely a disproportionate rate of loss in the first five missions (off the top of my head) compared to seasoned crews. Is there any breakdown when during a tour a crew was most likely to be shot down? A second question would be how frequently individual crew members were replaced versus the the whole crew.
_Is there any breakdown when during a tour a crew was most likely to be shot down?_
Don't know if there is for the USAAF, but the RAF did research during the war which looked at losses versus crew experience in Bomber Command.
@@primmakinsofis614 Don't leave me hanging, what did it say? Or at least give me reference name.
I am not aware of any studies that looked at crew loss rates based on experience.
I still can't believe that Thomas Ferbee's wiki entry is correct...said he did 60 bombing missions in Europe. ..? That's some going against the odds
Quite Informative
👍 👍
Of the men who didn't complete their tours of duty, how many were killed or wounded, and how many ended up in POW camps?
My dad was a tail gunner on a B17 during ww2 over Europe he flew 38 missions 10 more than he had to in which he was rewarded with Distinguished Flying Cross and the Air Medal he managed to be sent back to USA to Texas to teach gunnery school and then home shortly before Christmas 1945 he was shot down twice landing in the channel both times after losing 3 engines 1st time throwing every thing out they could to get hat far from Germany 2nd time running out of fuel do to being shot up so bad
My late father was a B17 pilot in the 8th AAF and completed 35 missions in August 1944. While going through several aircraft- his crew stayed together and returned to the states without any Purple Hearts !
Please review the 15,000 airmen killed in training in the USAAF during WW2.
I love these videos, I've learned a lot and it really puts into perspective what these guys went through. Would you mind doing the B 29 superfortress Next?
I will start a full-up B-29 series after I finish the B-17.
@@WWIIUSBombersAwesome!!! Thanks bub, keep up the great work!
nice!
Ida had to have a desk job. Don't think waist Gunner in a B-17 was for me🤔
My uncle came back from a tour in B-24
damn in 1943 imagine the commander walking into the room and be like, "look to your left, look to your right, now look at the person infront of you and now behind you. including yourself 4 of y'all aint gonna make it."
21 % Bloody Legends RIP
Great channel. Hopeful to see it expand. You should reach out to Greg's Planes and Automobiles; one of the few other channels that provides this level of accuracy.
What was the loss rate of the infantry in World War II?
7:44 there is no way the bombadier/navigator survived that hit.
Damn, that had to a flak hit.
21% and 66% likelihood of completing a tour of duty beats 0%, but it’s still sobering.
I recall seeing elsewhere that they destroyed 3 times as many German aircraft in May 1944 alone compared to up to that point in the war combined.
What wrecked the Luftwaffe was fighter pilot losses:
Jan. 1944 = 292
Feb. 1944 = 434
Mar. 1944 = 511
Apr. 1944 = 447
May 1944 = 578
That's 2,262 fighter pilots lost in just five months. The Luftwaffe simply didn't have the capacity to replace losses of that magnitude, especially once the effects of the attacks on German oil production took hold.
Great video! I noticed the flak losses spiked after fighter losses fell, was that just the same flak loss rate representing a higher % of a smaller number of total losses or did flak become more effective (ie radar aiming improvements or something similar).
interesting question but the raid on Berlin was still about 10% losses of the number in the raid, mostly due to Flak but I'm also certain that there would have been some due to fighters.
Both
Still a horrific casualty rate.
Soundtrack has fair amount of drop out in first half.
Never mind that the people were defending their homes, neighbors and cities at all costs. Of course, loss rates were high. The enemy pilots were just as motivated as our American pilots by patriotism, duty and the desire to protect their homes and families.
Those are some pretty sad statistics for those young men
I have a copy of the Lucky Bastards Club. If you don't have one, I'll email you this.
Cannon fotter. How hell fight with 88 flak?😵💫
My dad got shot down and was taken pow. My mom and us kids paid a price for his behavior afterwards. It turned out he was tortured and made sterile. I found out when I did a DNA test many years later.
The ugly truth was that there was no "milk run" up to last day of war for the crews....
There were a few runs where no resistance was encountered, but it wasn't common and was far outweighed by the bad missions.
I don't care what you have to say, I'm not joining a B-17 bomber crew!
I don’t think they would’ve told you how bad it is before you got into the plane lmao 🤣
So about 4.000 Allies Bomber were lost to Germany in last 15 months before the war ended,
but compare to this, up to 500 Allies Bomber were lost to Japan. (only 500? I call this bullshit).
And how many Allies Bomber were lost to Italy?
You manage to post stuff I have thinking about. I winder how 5th AF losses stacked up against 8th and 25th? Particularly 17s and 24s in S Pacific before 29s came along.
The RAF accepted a 5% loss rate as being sustainable. That is out of 20 bombers sent out, 19 would return. However, a tour of duty in bomber command was 30 missions. Statistically, this meant no one should have completed a tour. The actual survival rate was about 30%. You were then rested for 6 + months and then had to complete a second tour of 30 missions.
Moral of the story is: Your life is not worth making the Government rich, or to commit overreach in policy not in keeping with established norms. Do not enlist. The Governments kids sure aren't.
Actually, quite the opposite. These boys died fighting back at Nazi Germany, not to "make the government rich." This was WWII, not Vietnam. It was a different type of war.
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Autolike whenever you upload.
What does a snowflake know... 🤔
Tour of dooty why do all Americans say it like that
Excellent content, thank you!