As GSL, this is exactly how I would want it handled. I would hate to cancel it, but no permit holder means no camp. If one of my leaders called with this situation I would likely come down myself to take over as permit holder.
A good response, for the future it’s maybe a good idea that there are more adult nights away permit holders in attendance in case of similar issues. I know it’s stating the obvious but having been an instructor/trainer myself I would often explain that the obvious is easily overlooked, so please don’t be offended but what I say..
@@mjspice100 for larger groups that should be an option, but one of mine is really small so getting more than a couple permit holders isn't easy. Especially since they are military families and leave every few years
From the SA FAQ: The permit holder remains responsible for the event at all times and as a minimum, attends the event during the time that provision is made for young people to be sleeping overnight. What should be undertaken is a brief chat with the District Commissioner on what action they want you to take in the event of this happening. If it was to happen during the day, you should try and get hold of a replacement permit holder for that night or finish the camp early at the end of the day. If at night, then it needs to be considered what the safest, realistic option is. As there will be no permit holder present to make this decision, then the home District Commissioner will need to be asked for advice on what should be done as they are ultimately responsible. Obviously there are many factors involved, length of camp, distance from home, time, weather etc. When planning your camp, you need to take into consideration as part of your planning and risk assessments, what actions you are going to take in the case of emergencies, part of that is if you only have one Nights Away Permit holder available, what will you do if they unavoidably have to leave. This plan needs to be clearly documented, so the other leaders on the camp know what action to take. If this isn't done, then in the unfortunate event of the Nights Away Permit holder having to leave, then the District Commissioner will need to be contacted to agree a plan of action, this could possibly involve a call to be made at an unsociable hour.
If the distance is significant it is always wise to have a contact number for the host DC too even though it's no longer a requirement for them to sign off on the camp. They may well be able to find emergency backup for you nearby
Mate. That’s a tough one. Technically, yes you would have to cancel the camp but to be honest I would contact your GSL if they aren’t already there or possibly DC and seek further advice
Great question. I had the same thing happen to me a few years ago. I arranged a camp but was not the nights away permit holder. The permit holder rang up after we had set up camp and said he could not come as he was "sick". He then told me tht he had spoken to the DC and it was OK for me to carry on as I had been granted special dispensation! When I mentioned this at my own nights away traing the trainbers hit the roof and said the DC was nota llowed to offer this dispensation and what i should have done is arranged for another nightw away permit holder to be on camp!
Simple. You phone the DC. Or other people in your district. You have until bedtime to find another permit holder to come and cover. The permit holder is allowed to leave site but must be present for the times that arrangements have been made for sleeping. So you can leave for your emergency while phoning around for cover. If you can get someone there great... If not then you will need to phone the parents and cancel with pickup later that evening. Absolutely no reason why the other non permit holding leaders can't keep things running until that pickup time
As part of the planning you should have a contingency NAP Holder for this reason… I appreciate you might be the only NAP Holder available for a camp from your group I would reach out to my District / Local contacts depending how close to home I was and see if anyone was available to cover and then reach out to my DC / DLV and agree the change in person with them. At a possibility it could be asking someone else on site if they had a leader who could cover for them, but this might not be ideal since they are responsible for what happens overnight etc… Although that change in person could be agreed by another leader if the NAP Holder had to go and cannot hang around to sort that contingency out… The Nights Away FAQ’s state about Contingency NAP Holders being a consideration (and have done for a while) it’s the same as the contingency activities for adventurous activities and alternate route plans for walks / hike being reviewed prior to the camp
Good question! and quite timely as many scouters will be planning camps for later in the spring and summer, and by asking the question now it will be considered for camp risk assessments, and contingency plans made. Speaking as a cub leader and nights away permit holder, I would of course get on the phone to my GSL and ask for ideas. The most likely solution would come from the fact that one of the cubs on camp has a permit holding scout leader for a dad, so either way he has to come to the campsite early either collect his child or to stay for the night as the replacement permit holder.
Contact the GC(Group Commissioner). Discuss the situation. If need be invlove the GSS(Grouo Support Scouter). Then hope a solution can be hashed out that benefits all.
Technically yes but escalate to GSL and DC to see if another permit holder can come in to substitute for you. If this can't be resolved not many options other than to cancel
POR says you can’t hold an overnighter without a nights away permit holder unless it’s an adult free scout/explorer camp and event passport has been approved and issued. 1st get hold of your “in touch” to double your help with the following: Personally I’d make calls for NAP holder to cover and add one to the slate. Failing that, contact district for advice but good luck on that being on a Saturday and limited time. Failing that, unfortunately it’s a cancelled night 😕
@@bigmaninthewoods I’ve had permit holders that I know from other groups within my district be the permit holder for both groups in the past but I’d check with DC and make sure number ratios are ok
I would contact the District and see if there is another nights away permit holder who could step in, but falling that then yes it would have to be cancelled
Although if its a group camp and you're the only leader there with a permit, I'd suggest encouraging some of the other leaders to get their NAP for the future!
Interesting question. While I maybe the activity leader (Australia) I don't know if there is any restriction like you have. You remain responsible, but as long as you have two-deep leadership (two certified Leader as we don't use the term warranted here), there should be no problem. Phones work well these days. Good idea though to let you GSL know.
Initially contact DC and camp staff, see if hey have a Permit holder available, another group on site may be able to assist. Ahead of next time - get some more of your adults to obtain their Permits so you have more than one at camp?
My understanding is a permit holder could be offsite during the day but not overnight. On the blower to the DC, there's a chance another NAP holder in rhe distict could come out. I'd expect if not the DC could/would instruct the YP must be sent home. Which in itself wouldn't be so easy considering the hour!
Do you and all parents at the event feel that everyone will be safe if you leave? If possible call a professional scouting employee for input. I cannot speak to the rules of Scouting in your country. In my country, the adults in Scouting that speak most loudly about the rules are usually the adults that do not actually understand or closely follow the rules.
I would ask another group camping if their permit holder would take responsibility for my group over night, if that was successful ring the DC to let them know the temporary change of NAP holder. Failing that I would ring the DC or NAP advisor asking for the next step. Takes the onus off you, and onto the DC/NAP advisor.
This would have never have happened when every leader had to get a camp permit to get their wood beads and be a leader. It also says the gal has not been managing the group if you are the only one. Where was your contingency and back up?.
Good question Technically yes as there will be no NAP holder However, I would speak with the other leaders to see if they feel confident and my DC for advice Maybe a permit holder from the district can come to the rescue
Possibly a bit insensitive posting this after the last few days? Rules are rules and not to be debated or interpreted in different ways. It is now good practice to include contingency plans in a NAN submission and one of those contingencies should include measures to take if the permit holder cannot stay at camp. By not having thought this through in advance , the temptation may be to “wing it” and that can have not just bad consequences but cause further reputational damage to the association. Either a new permit holder is found by a cut off time or the camp is abandoned and YP return home by the emergency procedures also agreed in advance.
While rules are not to be debated, they should be brought into the light so that the organisation is aware of the ramifications of said rules. I am all for notifying the appropriate group or district leaders, and if the camp needs to be canceled, parents (who we are ultimately responsible to) can bring it up with Branch and sort out other acceptable governance mechanisms.
Contact GSL and DC, they will advise and/or possibly be able to get another permit holder to help out
Good answer 👏🏻
As GSL, this is exactly how I would want it handled. I would hate to cancel it, but no permit holder means no camp. If one of my leaders called with this situation I would likely come down myself to take over as permit holder.
A good response, for the future it’s maybe a good idea that there are more adult nights away permit holders in attendance in case of similar issues.
I know it’s stating the obvious but having been an instructor/trainer myself I would often explain that the obvious is easily overlooked, so please don’t be offended but what I say..
@@mjspice100 for larger groups that should be an option, but one of mine is really small so getting more than a couple permit holders isn't easy. Especially since they are military families and leave every few years
From the SA FAQ:
The permit holder remains responsible for the event at all times and as a minimum, attends the event during the time that provision is made for young people to be sleeping overnight.
What should be undertaken is a brief chat with the District Commissioner on what action they want you to take in the event of this happening. If it was to happen during the day, you should try and get hold of a replacement permit holder for that night or finish the camp early at the end of the day. If at night, then it needs to be considered what the safest, realistic option is. As there will be no permit holder present to make this decision, then the home District Commissioner will need to be asked for advice on what should be done as they are ultimately responsible.
Obviously there are many factors involved, length of camp, distance from home, time, weather etc. When planning your camp, you need to take into consideration as part of your planning and risk assessments, what actions you are going to take in the case of emergencies, part of that is if you only have one Nights Away Permit holder available, what will you do if they unavoidably have to leave. This plan needs to be clearly documented, so the other leaders on the camp know what action to take.
If this isn't done, then in the unfortunate event of the Nights Away Permit holder having to leave, then the District Commissioner will need to be contacted to agree a plan of action, this could possibly involve a call to be made at an unsociable hour.
👏🏻👏🏻
If the distance is significant it is always wise to have a contact number for the host DC too even though it's no longer a requirement for them to sign off on the camp.
They may well be able to find emergency backup for you nearby
Mate. That’s a tough one. Technically, yes you would have to cancel the camp but to be honest I would contact your GSL if they aren’t already there or possibly DC and seek further advice
You wouldn’t have to cancel straight away….
Great question. I had the same thing happen to me a few years ago. I arranged a camp but was not the nights away permit holder. The permit holder rang up after we had set up camp and said he could not come as he was "sick". He then told me tht he had spoken to the DC and it was OK for me to carry on as I had been granted special dispensation! When I mentioned this at my own nights away traing the trainbers hit the roof and said the DC was nota llowed to offer this dispensation and what i should have done is arranged for another nightw away permit holder to be on camp!
Oh dear - mixed messages again!
Simple. You phone the DC. Or other people in your district.
You have until bedtime to find another permit holder to come and cover.
The permit holder is allowed to leave site but must be present for the times that arrangements have been made for sleeping.
So you can leave for your emergency while phoning around for cover.
If you can get someone there great... If not then you will need to phone the parents and cancel with pickup later that evening. Absolutely no reason why the other non permit holding leaders can't keep things running until that pickup time
Contact GSL and DC (Maybe the CC as well), they will advise and/or possibly be able to get another permit holder to help out but if not I'd scratch it
Don’t forget to ask the campsite Crew or maybe another group who’s camping on the same campsite as you.
As part of the planning you should have a contingency NAP Holder for this reason… I appreciate you might be the only NAP Holder available for a camp from your group
I would reach out to my District / Local contacts depending how close to home I was and see if anyone was available to cover and then reach out to my DC / DLV and agree the change in person with them. At a possibility it could be asking someone else on site if they had a leader who could cover for them, but this might not be ideal since they are responsible for what happens overnight etc…
Although that change in person could be agreed by another leader if the NAP Holder had to go and cannot hang around to sort that contingency out… The Nights Away FAQ’s state about Contingency NAP Holders being a consideration (and have done for a while) it’s the same as the contingency activities for adventurous activities and alternate route plans for walks / hike being reviewed prior to the camp
Contact GSL, DC and let them know whats going on might also suggest a few names of NA permit holders and hopefully save the camp.
Spot on Simon
@@bigmaninthewoods I have my "In case of emergency" NAN list already made and I'm not even a permit holder *yet*
This situation is exactly why we are lucky enough to have 2 nights away permit holders on the camps we go on.
Good question! and quite timely as many scouters will be planning camps for later in the spring and summer, and by asking the question now it will be considered for camp risk assessments, and contingency plans made. Speaking as a cub leader and nights away permit holder, I would of course get on the phone to my GSL and ask for ideas. The most likely solution would come from the fact that one of the cubs on camp has a permit holding scout leader for a dad, so either way he has to come to the campsite early either collect his child or to stay for the night as the replacement permit holder.
Contact the GC(Group Commissioner). Discuss the situation. If need be invlove the GSS(Grouo Support Scouter). Then hope a solution can be hashed out that benefits all.
Sounds reasonable to me
Technically yes but escalate to GSL and DC to see if another permit holder can come in to substitute for you. If this can't be resolved not many options other than to cancel
POR says you can’t hold an overnighter without a nights away permit holder unless it’s an adult free scout/explorer camp and event passport has been approved and issued.
1st get hold of your “in touch” to double your help with the following:
Personally I’d make calls for NAP holder to cover and add one to the slate. Failing that, contact district for advice but good luck on that being on a Saturday and limited time.
Failing that, unfortunately it’s a cancelled night 😕
How about speaking to anyone else on the campsite from other groups? Could that be an option?
@@bigmaninthewoods I’ve had permit holders that I know from other groups within my district be the permit holder for both groups in the past but I’d check with DC and make sure number ratios are ok
I would contact the District and see if there is another nights away permit holder who could step in, but falling that then yes it would have to be cancelled
Although if its a group camp and you're the only leader there with a permit, I'd suggest encouraging some of the other leaders to get their NAP for the future!
Interesting question. While I maybe the activity leader (Australia) I don't know if there is any restriction like you have. You remain responsible, but as long as you have two-deep leadership (two certified Leader as we don't use the term warranted here), there should be no problem. Phones work well these days. Good idea though to let you GSL know.
Initially contact DC and camp staff, see if hey have a Permit holder available, another group on site may be able to assist.
Ahead of next time - get some more of your adults to obtain their Permits so you have more than one at camp?
My understanding is a permit holder could be offsite during the day but not overnight. On the blower to the DC, there's a chance another NAP holder in rhe distict could come out. I'd expect if not the DC could/would instruct the YP must be sent home. Which in itself wouldn't be so easy considering the hour!
Correct Nights away Holder HAS TO BE ONSITE during the Night!
No assignment another leader to help you out
Good answer
Do you and all parents at the event feel that everyone will be safe if you leave? If possible call a professional scouting employee for input. I cannot speak to the rules of Scouting in your country. In my country, the adults in Scouting that speak most loudly about the rules are usually the adults that do not actually understand or closely follow the rules.
Where do you Scout?
USA.
I would ask another group camping if their permit holder would take responsibility for my group over night, if that was successful ring the DC to let them know the temporary change of NAP holder. Failing that I would ring the DC or NAP advisor asking for the next step. Takes the onus off you, and onto the DC/NAP advisor.
if you are the only permitted holder on camp then if you leave then you cant run the camp i would call gsl/dc remember you are not alone
This would have never have happened when every leader had to get a camp permit to get their wood beads and be a leader. It also says the gal has not been managing the group if you are the only one. Where was your contingency and back up?.
Good question
Technically yes as there will be no NAP holder
However, I would speak with the other leaders to see if they feel confident and my DC for advice
Maybe a permit holder from the district can come to the rescue
Possibly a bit insensitive posting this after the last few days? Rules are rules and not to be debated or interpreted in different ways. It is now good practice to include contingency plans in a NAN submission and one of those contingencies should include measures to take if the permit holder cannot stay at camp. By not having thought this through in advance , the temptation may be to “wing it” and that can have not just bad consequences but cause further reputational damage to the association. Either a new permit holder is found by a cut off time or the camp is abandoned and YP return home by the emergency procedures also agreed in advance.
While rules are not to be debated, they should be brought into the light so that the organisation is aware of the ramifications of said rules. I am all for notifying the appropriate group or district leaders, and if the camp needs to be canceled, parents (who we are ultimately responsible to) can bring it up with Branch and sort out other acceptable governance mechanisms.