Well joe has admitted to that fact when it comes to Alex Jones.. tbh joe has made me learnt that skill aswell, now when two people debate, I try to step in to tell them to let each other finish off their points and dont shout over each other, I've even told that to my parents who are always fighting/shouting "you cant get ya points across when ya shouting, ya primate instincts will become alerted other than logic"hahha
@@ronaldraygun8007 It's hard to figure out what the truth on this topic is. Stephan Guyenet seems to have more education behind him... I just wish he didn't come across as such a douche bag. Even psychopaths can be correct.
Why can't it be both or more? To much intake with a lack of metabolic ability to process enough calories. And the brain telling the body to store to much.
That's what I was thinking the whole time, it's similar to the genetics vs environment argument it really takes both. You need the environment for it but then your genetics tend to dictate the reaction to that environment.
I don't really get what they're trying to get at, whichever it is its still genetic predisposition, it's not the conscious or even subconscious mind that controls it but the physical make up of the brain, which is part of the body. Seems pretty obvious since a lot of hormones etc get produced in the brain. That doesn't mean that sm1 who got bullied and comfort eats is fat just because of genetics and not the fact they stuff themselves and cry all day long, ppl who are predisposed to being skinny can become obese too. Or m I missing something
One guy has a PhD in neuroscience so of course it's ALL about the brain. The other guy's a journalist so who knows why you should even listen to him at all. This whole discussion might as well be going on between two drunks at a bar.
Science journalist, meaning his profession is to digest and distill large volumes of papers and academic discussion. If you listen to anyone, he would be the one able to provide you with nodes of information you could readily consume.
"Investigative journalist." Seems like he spends about as much if not more time reviewing scientific articles as Stephen does and has a critical view toward research processes (as he should) which I appreciate. Both perspectives are valuable and can stand their own ground. I wouldn't be so dismissive.
That's true, the attack of Taubes on Guyenet is on UA-cam. He ridiculed him on public stage, and accused him of cherry picking. How ironic. Now when insulin hypothesis is proven wrong again and again by studies including those sponsored by Gary Taubes himself, Gary says "We used to be buddies...come on.." No wonder Guyenet is still pissed off:-)
Gary’s point is that for the vast majority of the population without the excess sugar and processed carbs you won’t get the insulin resistance and chronic obesity regardless of what the brain says. It’s not that complicated.
@@SB-mr2nk except that's complete b.s. and makes no sense. Insulin doesn't play as large of a part in weight gain as people think. You have to synthetically take excess insulin to see results. Gary doesn't have any respectable knowledge, the guy is self admittedly nothing more than a journalist. That's like someone form CNN saying Joe took horse deworming medication.
There're arguments are so long winded and complicated that I forget the premise of the discussion. More a clash of ego's then a short and precise explanation of one principle over the other, which leave me more confused and a little annoyed to begin with.
They are both advocating their points of view which are kind of moot when you consider how the chemicals in western food disrupt the process all together.
Robert Lustig I feel explains this well. It's more how the food gets made and processed that affects us. Even if its as simple as putting fruit into a blender and taking away important parts of the fruit (like the fiber). I could be explaining this poorly...
Nope. This is a sincere statement. Started out in bruising school. Switched to journalism. Recently graduated. Just voicing my hopes and dreams on UA-cam lol
@@BrittianyPerkins1 investigation one: the effects of ones own predisposed assumptions when reading text without emotion toned behind it and how we project our own meaning over the top of the other persons messages and are unable to clearly understand what their intentions were
To a degree yes as in it tells fat deposits to build up in certain places etc. It doesn't auto regulate how much builds up otherwise you wouldn't gain/lose wight. It doesn't work like a supercomputer that goes "too much fat has built up, dump it, get rid of it". it doesn't do it by itself. That's why you need to diet and exercise and cut down when you gain fat.
So...you don't think that the increase in sugar consumption which corresponds with the increasing obesity, diabetes, and cancer rate are at all correlated?
I think Stephen Guyenet has a lot of great insight and provides strong scientific evidence so it’s really unfortunate that he was frequently flippant and arrogant in this interview (I think it might have been the second half of this interview specifically). I had to stop listening because I believe a lot of what he is presenting, but felt ashamed at how he was acting. He is only contributing to a dynamic that will push Taubes away. Admitting that there may be some inaccuracy in your hypothesis (especially when you’ve based so much of your career on such hypothesis as Taubes has) takes courage. But if you’re having a discussion with someone who is constantly belittling your work and dismissing you in a flippant manner, it makes it so much harder to open up and admit that and change your mind. And it may also give the impression that admitting you’re wrong to someone who is being an asshole therefore excuses the behavior of being an asshole. This is not excusing Taubes’ behavior and role in this at all. I think I just felt disappointed in Guyenet’s behavior specifically because I admire his work. Is it really so hard to have thoughtful and respectful discussions?
Stephan: People are fat because their Brain tells them to eat too much junk food. Gary: People are fat because of genetics, hormones, biochemistry, and sugar. Joe: Interesting. Me: No Shit!
The brain actually does not regulate all aspects of digestion, even from an executive perspective. The enteric system, a bundle of nerves blanketing the anterior abdomen, has been nicknamed the second brain. One may assume that a great deal of delegation has been handed to this series of organs to act independently for the exclusive provision of metabolism. So the 'below the neck' analogy has some weight depending on where you place the spine and how you interconnect the various administrative mechanism.
This Taubes guy really has a problem with clearly communicating his hypothesis. You can listen to him blabber on for 20 mins and still have no clue what he really wants to say, plus he doesn't cite a shred of evidence. What's the big idea? Hormones play a role in body fat accumulation? Wow, what an insight. Now, what do you think controls hormone levels? Hmmmmm...
You have a hormonal response to food too. When you eat carbs, insulin raises which shuttles nutrients. If you have no need in the muscle (from damage eg weight training) then it’s going to get stored as fat.
They are both correct! One guy is describing the underlying variables in human DNA and brain function and development. Because the brain 🧠 is a G like that. The other guy is talking about the process itself after the brain executes or doesn’t execute a command. What the older guy doesn’t understand is the truth of the matter. You can’t have one without the other. It’s commonly known as the mind body paradox in philosophy. There is no question Stefan is correct in the variation of predisposition, our mind is running off of a very specific code in our own DNA. This code is interpreted by the brain and redistributed through our Limbic system to the dopamine centers in our brain. If you are efficient you can balance the two. If you are stressed or are in a stressful place it is harder for your body to regulate these processes the the older guy is speaking of. He thinks he should be arguing his point but he’s already right. He’s just explaining the chemical process. He’s not seeing the overlay. The picture is fairly large.
I don't appeal to authority. But if you have studied you know that it does really help you get a fuller understanding of a subject, as most courses are designed to cover all theories and explore some counter arguments to mainstream views. This is a debate between: Stephan J. Guyenet, who has: BS in biochemistry - University of Virginia. PhD in neuroscience - University of Washington. Then went on to study the neuroscience of obesity and eating behavior as a postdoctoral fellow. 12 years in the neuroscience research world studying the neuroscience of body fatness with publications in scientific journals have been cited more than 2,100 times. And Gary Taubes - masters degree in journalism - Colombia.
This is the kind of back and forth that often leads to make up sex, and i think they both can agree that makeup sex in the context of neutralizing anger and animosity is likely to burn more calories than general love making and/or a "quickie", I think that is where this is heading, just not anywhere near Rogan's studio, stick a fork in Joe! he was soooo done!
I've always been highly food motivated. My intuition is that my body default setting is high insulin resistance. I tend to put on muscle and fat quickly too.
Guyenet has always disagreed with Taubes but he never made any effort to publicly criticize or challenge him until Gary singled him out at a conference in front of a large audience. Since then, Guyenet has taken a more gloves off approach to dealing with Gary and is why he comes off as a bit peeved in this video. That's very out of character for him, based on his other videos.
It's mad to think the argument of the starving child and the fat mother didn't play into the fact the child could have been fat prior to the famine along with the mother, then because the woman is able to store more fat cells due to the large body structure she was able to sustain a larger body when a famine struck, same as when a lion has a starving cub, they can't just chew off a piece of their leg to feed Thier child, that's why Infant mortality is so high in these populations 🤷
That was fully disclosed within the discussion. What's so offensive about two people with different backgrounds respectfully discussing a subject, especially when the expert is identified as such and a moderator ensures he's given ample opportunities to talk?
Why can't there be a middle ground for both ideas maybe its the brain, body, genetics and maybe even gut bacteria could all play a role in this topic. The body is a simplistically complex working machine. In the words of Koffka “A Whole is Greater Than the Sum of Its Parts”.
Because each guy needs to show the other that he has a bigger dick. Apparently, throughout all their education, they skipped an Evolutionary Psych class.
Yeah, if the brain says, "I'm going to be lazy, sit around and do nothing but eat", the body is probably going to be fat. If the brain says, "I'm going to be active and eat in moderation", the body is not likely to be fat.
People who are fat aren’t eating because they are hungry. If I ate only due to hunger I would be thin. It is pleasure, cravings, habits, and desire-not hunger. Low carb theory says blood sugar swings up and down cause overeating, but after a few chocolates - while glucose would still be high - I already am wanting to eat more.
Get a CGM. Your blood glucose can spike quickly and drop just as quickly. In fact your blood glucose can have a large dip, lowing that what you started off with.
Stephan sounded so whiny but he definitely carried himself more respectfully. Gary using his situation with his brother shows his lack of understanding of how a study is supposed to be conducted. I mean can he verify with confidence that he and his brother ate the exact same foods in the same quantity and at the same timing for the same period? Like, why would a guy with a science background say something like that? Is his science background like grade 10 science? Btw I'm no expert but from my science background, there is no answer YET and it's most likely a combination of the body and the brain mis-controlling the system
It is not either or, it is all. All systems in the body are connected, also MASSIVE environmental stressors contribute to human behavior which drives choice. People have been manipulated for decades to move towards illness and obesity. Equals profit margins. Now, there is a trigger in the brain that's connected to the stomach that tells you when you are full, this trigger can be diminished based on individual nutritional choices. Also, when referencing research, people need to understand who paid for the research and how and who the (desired) results benefit.
It's clear that we are not all the same! Everyone agrees on that! Fact. The law of thermo dynamics. We can't make energy out of thin air. Fact. Even if you end up in a body that has some genetic or behavioural preference to store fat: You cannot store fat if your body isn't fed the energy. *Please don't take this the wrong way* but in concentration camps there were no genetic mutants that managed to gain weight... I weight 72kg my brother weights 139kg - sure we have slight genetic differences but it's just calories in-calories out.
Jeez this whole podcast was hard going. Joe needs to set out the key areas upfront and then chair it a bit more robustly and kill the bickering. None the wiser at the end of it...
You can go to his website where he posted all of his major points that he was going to bring up on the podcast. Its all there for you if you don't think he said anything.
I smoke weed and get the munchies and eat *fairly* healthy food while maintaining a workout schedule and 12 hours of school and work 40 hours a week. Maybe don't smoke a bunch unless you're going to work out or hike or walk or bike. I love smoking a strong sativa and biking a few miles. Weed doesn't JUST make you lazy. I use it to enjoy things more that I already enjoy.
As a biomedical engineering student at cmu I did my thesis on mitochondrial oxidative phosphorylation thermodynamic efficiencies, ATP production of the brain liver and heart. Essentially fuel efficiency of the human body. I find this back and forth to be amusing.
Why Stephen is wrong (on the issue of the cause of obesity) is because the Western world has been told for 5 decades to eat less, and we still don't. His idea is that our brains won't let us eat less. But this is despite so many of us trying. Why Gary is correct is because by eating the right food the brain receives the correct signals of satiety and we don't need or want to over eat. But I'm saying this in 2022 when this is becoming common knowledge anyway.
Why can't it be both? The body and mind work in unison...if one is off the other is off and vice versa. There is no end all be all. You have to take care of your body and mind by eating clean whole foods, getting consistent exercise and sunlight and your body and mind will take care of you.
If brain regulates body fat, how do you explain experiments with transplanting gut flora from lean to fat mice and vice versa? If gut flora can affect so much change on mouses, how can we say that brain is the main culprit? I mean I don't doubt it's a part of the picture, but it can't be all of it.
Ask: how many people liberated from Dachau or Buchenwald were FAT, regardless what their weight when they stepped off the train. Lose weight=DON'T EAT!
It's so hard to listen to Guyanet. He comes off as such a smug, dogmatic jerk. He was angry and defensive before the conversation even started. And, years later, haven't we found out they're both right to a certain extent? In fact, that Guyanet is more wrong, and that our food choices and gut bacteria affect the brain MORE than vice versa? Please correct me if I'm wrong.
Kind of difficult argument. If you’re hungry, the body sends signals to brain to tell you to eat. If you eat quickly and over eat before your brain says “I’m full”. Who’s fault is it? Fatness is a result of both the body and brain.
The problem with this clip is that i see two person: - on the first second Gary looks to me way more nice - Stephan on the first second sounds to me more "arrogant" Then... - Gary takes 8 freaking minute with nobody interrupting to say that the "body is the driver instead of the brain", that is a sentence that could take literally 10 seconds maximum; - Stephan after this 8 minute respectfully starts speaking and get interrupted from Gary at a Flash speed (remember that he wasted 8 minute to say a easy concept, and i feel that even Joe is getting impatient); At this point i don't even listen anymore. Stephan is right. Gary is wrong.
I'm curious... if the brain-centric view is correct, how is it that fat cells and processes such as lipolysis can be studied in a lab environment outside the body? Seems like cells are more inclined to respond to signalling molecules such as insulin.
Sugar leads to all kinds of problems and one of those problems are hard to burn stored fat. Humans didn't evolve with grocery stores half full of sugars so when we found sugar seasonally or in the wild we enjoyed it and it stored hard to burn fat and energy. That's why the processed and refined sugars are so difficult to burn off once they become stored and excess fat. Eating carnivore I lost 25 lbs in two weeks and the most incredible thing about it is that I did it with ZERO exercise. When you eat only meat you are eating only once maybe twice a day and you are filled and comfortable. Sugar is extremely caustic to the human body. It burns. Think of it that way. Killing yourself in the gym is not good for pure fat weight loss and it's incredibly difficult and time consuming. Eat carnivore or keto and fast every once and a while and you will experience incredible results. Dr. Anthony Chaffee and Professor Bart Kay are the best places to start and learn...
I’m not done yet Gary
Its like Joe is a therapist in a couples session.
That's so funny...
Gary Gary Gary, please let him talk, he let you talk! Lol...
A marriage counselor 😂
Well joe has admitted to that fact when it comes to Alex Jones.. tbh joe has made me learnt that skill aswell, now when two people debate, I try to step in to tell them to let each other finish off their points and dont shout over each other, I've even told that to my parents who are always fighting/shouting "you cant get ya points across when ya shouting, ya primate instincts will become alerted other than logic"hahha
@@shariqsonindahouse9663 remember this?
I'm better than you. No, I'm better than you. I'm smarter. Well I'm more articulated. That's these two guys attitude towards each other.
well that's probably cause one is wrong.
@@ronaldraygun8007 It's hard to figure out what the truth on this topic is. Stephan Guyenet seems to have more education behind him... I just wish he didn't come across as such a douche bag. Even psychopaths can be correct.
That steven guy was a pompous dick
it probably has to do with Gary being a dick to him a few years ago. but I can tell his default isn't to far off.
@@ObsaSiyo well put
It’s entirely possible.
-Joe (probably)
Lol
He is there as a Moderator/facilitator. I don't think his role is to prove or disprove the opinions of the guests.
Idk about these guys, but my wife regulates my fat.
Emmanuel Salgado haha
under rated comment.
There's a Confucius joke in there just waiting to get out.
I'm shocked that no one has yet made a fat-cock joke regarding relations w your wife. Give it time 😉
Rofl!! Good one.... And vise versa hopefully
I want Joey Diaz in there with these guys.
Why can't it be both or more? To much intake with a lack of metabolic ability to process enough calories. And the brain telling the body to store to much.
I know there had to be a middle ground there somewhere.
That's what I was thinking the whole time, it's similar to the genetics vs environment argument it really takes both. You need the environment for it but then your genetics tend to dictate the reaction to that environment.
I don't really get what they're trying to get at, whichever it is its still genetic predisposition, it's not the conscious or even subconscious mind that controls it but the physical make up of the brain, which is part of the body. Seems pretty obvious since a lot of hormones etc get produced in the brain. That doesn't mean that sm1 who got bullied and comfort eats is fat just because of genetics and not the fact they stuff themselves and cry all day long, ppl who are predisposed to being skinny can become obese too. Or m I missing something
Because people love being right about everything.
The people in this thread are way more reasonable than the guest on Joe's Podcast.
One guy has a PhD in neuroscience so of course it's ALL about the brain. The other guy's a journalist so who knows why you should even listen to him at all.
This whole discussion might as well be going on between two drunks at a bar.
Science journalist, meaning his profession is to digest and distill large volumes of papers and academic discussion. If you listen to anyone, he would be the one able to provide you with nodes of information you could readily consume.
@@0MVR_0 I would want a general in a battle, not a military historian. Or even worse a military journalist.
@@RandoBurner What battle?
"Investigative journalist." Seems like he spends about as much if not more time reviewing scientific articles as Stephen does and has a critical view toward research processes (as he should) which I appreciate. Both perspectives are valuable and can stand their own ground. I wouldn't be so dismissive.
Joe can DMT regulate fat Rogan
Tony unfunny douche Stark
Hmmm I'll try but I'm skinny with a big dick I'll measure it after for you.
This conversation was frustrating. It's like they had bad history that they were working out on the show.
That's true, the attack of Taubes on Guyenet is on UA-cam. He ridiculed him on public stage, and accused him of cherry picking. How ironic. Now when insulin hypothesis is proven wrong again and again by studies including those sponsored by Gary Taubes himself, Gary says "We used to be buddies...come on.." No wonder Guyenet is still pissed off:-)
Stephan "Stephen Steven Stefano Stephanie Stephanus Stephen goddamn it Stephan" Guyenet
Why does the guys with glasses sound like he ate half of Sean Connery?
Haha
Because he was pissed off to high hell. That other dude pissed him off. I see it. And he wants and should be allowed to kick that shits ass.
With a mix of Owen Wilson and Caitlyn Jenner.
Because he's hard of hearing.
@@aholder4471 I just realized he had mentioned that...
Like listening to a husband and wife of 30 years bicker.
I had the same thought!
Nailed it....
Gary’s point is that for the vast majority of the population without the excess sugar and processed carbs you won’t get the insulin resistance and chronic obesity regardless of what the brain says. It’s not that complicated.
well no shit that's a given lmao
@@SB-mr2nk except that's complete b.s. and makes no sense. Insulin doesn't play as large of a part in weight gain as people think. You have to synthetically take excess insulin to see results. Gary doesn't have any respectable knowledge, the guy is self admittedly nothing more than a journalist. That's like someone form CNN saying Joe took horse deworming medication.
Oh he should’ve said that
if you've engaged with any of Taubes's content, you'd know that's not what he believes
There're arguments are so long winded and complicated that I forget the premise of the discussion. More a clash of ego's then a short and precise explanation of one principle over the other, which leave me more confused and a little annoyed to begin with.
Deaf Steve Jobs took his earrings out cause he bout to start swinging!
His name is Gary!
That's Owen Wilson playing Steve Jobs
@@Malungeon18436571 Wow!
@@Malungeon18436571 it's entirely possible...
@@coreyluce8424 gary is a little bitch
This Taubes guy “I disagree with virtually everything” wtf?
Joe: his name is steffan right?
Gary: FIRST OF ALL STEFAHN
Gary Taubes v. Stephan Guyenet at UFC 148
Stephan is very condencenting towards Gary
Guy in black shirt looks Jewish to me and seems to have a very mainstream and establishment view.
@Captain Orange's Burner very intelligent and relevant observation
@@captainorangesburner 💀
@@captainorangesburner good observation! never trust a jew! they may steal your foreskin or drink the blood of your children.
@@captainorangesburner mainstream hates him, not sure WTF you are talking about. His books made entire MSM flip the F out.
They are both advocating their points of view which are kind of moot when you consider how the chemicals in western food disrupt the process all together.
Robert Lustig I feel explains this well. It's more how the food gets made and processed that affects us. Even if its as simple as putting fruit into a blender and taking away important parts of the fruit (like the fiber). I could be explaining this poorly...
My life goal: “I’m an investigative journalist with a background in science”
I'm sensing animosity towards leaders in scigative journalism.
Nope. This is a sincere statement. Started out in bruising school. Switched to journalism. Recently graduated. Just voicing my hopes and dreams on UA-cam lol
@@BrittianyPerkins1 investigation one: the effects of ones own predisposed assumptions when reading text without emotion toned behind it and how we project our own meaning over the top of the other persons messages and are unable to clearly understand what their intentions were
Joe "GARY GARY GARY GARY GARY GARY GARY let him talk" Rogan
"Steffon." It's hilarious that Glasses Guy has known him for yrs and pronounces his name wrong. It's up the with Askren and Marty.
He sound like he's about to have a nervous breakdown at any moment
Do these pants make my cerebellum look fat?
Not bad.
To a degree yes as in it tells fat deposits to build up in certain places etc. It doesn't auto regulate how much builds up otherwise you wouldn't gain/lose wight. It doesn't work like a supercomputer that goes "too much fat has built up, dump it, get rid of it". it doesn't do it by itself. That's why you need to diet and exercise and cut down when you gain fat.
Isn't gary just some journalist just selling books? Like that 'weed causes schizofrenia' guy from the last debate podcast?
So...you don't think that the increase in sugar consumption which corresponds with the increasing obesity, diabetes, and cancer rate are at all correlated?
Is like setting a crab and lobster for a fight -Joe Is Savage lol
I think Stephen Guyenet has a lot of great insight and provides strong scientific evidence so it’s really unfortunate that he was frequently flippant and arrogant in this interview (I think it might have been the second half of this interview specifically). I had to stop listening because I believe a lot of what he is presenting, but felt ashamed at how he was acting. He is only contributing to a dynamic that will push Taubes away.
Admitting that there may be some inaccuracy in your hypothesis (especially when you’ve based so much of your career on such hypothesis as Taubes has) takes courage. But if you’re having a discussion with someone who is constantly belittling your work and dismissing you in a flippant manner, it makes it so much harder to open up and admit that and change your mind. And it may also give the impression that admitting you’re wrong to someone who is being an asshole therefore excuses the behavior of being an asshole.
This is not excusing Taubes’ behavior and role in this at all. I think I just felt disappointed in Guyenet’s behavior specifically because I admire his work.
Is it really so hard to have thoughtful and respectful discussions?
Well said
He was not at all arrogant IMO just fed up.
Exactly, Taubes was being pretty damn annoying since he interrupted a bunch of times. Even Joe had to stop him
Stephan: People are fat because their Brain tells them to eat too much junk food.
Gary: People are fat because of genetics, hormones, biochemistry, and sugar.
Joe: Interesting.
Me: No Shit!
Having watched a few segments of this debate, I have to say that Stephan clearly makes more sense. Too bad his arrogant attitude makes him look bad.
Agreed but Gary is also annyonig when he is using personal anecdotes
Like two bald men fighting over a comb.
Joe ”can i pause for a sec” Rogan
The brain actually does not regulate all aspects of digestion, even from an executive perspective. The enteric system, a bundle of nerves blanketing the anterior abdomen, has been nicknamed the second brain. One may assume that a great deal of delegation has been handed to this series of organs to act independently for the exclusive provision of metabolism. So the 'below the neck' analogy has some weight depending on where you place the spine and how you interconnect the various administrative mechanism.
The enteric does not have much impact on eating behaviors though
@@jhonklan3794 and the brain has little impact on sleeping behaviors
The comments on this video had me dying laughing at work 😂
I can’t listen to this
-fat person
football junkie me neither what a bore.
I think Joe needs to have Dr. Rhonda Patrick on with these guys and see what her take is on it. It would be good viewing no matter what.
Uh oh these guys may break out in a slap match if you’re not careful.
This Taubes guy really has a problem with clearly communicating his hypothesis. You can listen to him blabber on for 20 mins and still have no clue what he really wants to say, plus he doesn't cite a shred of evidence. What's the big idea? Hormones play a role in body fat accumulation? Wow, what an insight. Now, what do you think controls hormone levels? Hmmmmm...
You have a hormonal response to food too. When you eat carbs, insulin raises which shuttles nutrients. If you have no need in the muscle (from damage eg weight training) then it’s going to get stored as fat.
I wanna see joe and every damn day fitness have a conversation.
I found the way he said "particularly revelatory" to be hilarious.
Isa Belgesay where did he say that lol, curious
@@danielortiz3713 lol, right at the very beginning
I keep waiting for the guy with glasses to say..."Cordelll...Cordellll."
Hahaha
They are both correct! One guy is describing the underlying variables in human DNA and brain function and development. Because the brain 🧠 is a G like that. The other guy is talking about the process itself after the brain executes or doesn’t execute a command. What the older guy doesn’t understand is the truth of the matter. You can’t have one without the other. It’s commonly known as the mind body paradox in philosophy. There is no question Stefan is correct in the variation of predisposition, our mind is running off of a very specific code in our own DNA. This code is interpreted by the brain and redistributed through our Limbic system to the dopamine centers in our brain. If you are efficient you can balance the two. If you are stressed or are in a stressful place it is harder for your body to regulate these processes the the older guy is speaking of. He thinks he should be arguing his point but he’s already right. He’s just explaining the chemical process. He’s not seeing the overlay. The picture is fairly large.
I don't appeal to authority. But if you have studied you know that it does really help you get a fuller understanding of a subject, as most courses are designed to cover all theories and explore some counter arguments to mainstream views. This is a debate between:
Stephan J. Guyenet, who has: BS in biochemistry - University of Virginia. PhD in neuroscience - University of Washington. Then went on to study the neuroscience of obesity and eating behavior as a postdoctoral fellow. 12 years in the neuroscience research world studying the neuroscience of body fatness with publications in scientific journals have been cited more than 2,100 times.
And
Gary Taubes - masters degree in journalism - Colombia.
no, one is correct the ohter is misrepresenting the data.
This is the kind of back and forth that often leads to make up sex, and i think they both can agree that makeup sex in the context of neutralizing anger and animosity is likely to burn more calories than general love making and/or a "quickie", I think that is where this is heading, just not anywhere near Rogan's studio, stick a fork in Joe! he was soooo done!
😮
He should talk alongside with Jim Gaffigan about fat. They sound so similar could mess with peoples minds.
I've always been highly food motivated. My intuition is that my body default setting is high insulin resistance. I tend to put on muscle and fat quickly too.
Guyenet has always disagreed with Taubes but he never made any effort to publicly criticize or challenge him until Gary singled him out at a conference in front of a large audience. Since then, Guyenet has taken a more gloves off approach to dealing with Gary and is why he comes off as a bit peeved in this video. That's very out of character for him, based on his other videos.
It's mad to think the argument of the starving child and the fat mother didn't play into the fact the child could have been fat prior to the famine along with the mother, then because the woman is able to store more fat cells due to the large body structure she was able to sustain a larger body when a famine struck, same as when a lion has a starving cub, they can't just chew off a piece of their leg to feed Thier child, that's why Infant mortality is so high in these populations 🤷
Gary, you don't have to read he's bloody book loud!!! come with scientific evidence regarding your research and that should be enough.
I really enjoyed this respectful and well moderated discourse. Not sure why so many are complaining about it. Fascinating stuff.
Because one person actually studies the science, and the other is a journalist with no background in the issues he's discussing.
That was fully disclosed within the discussion. What's so offensive about two people with different backgrounds respectfully discussing a subject, especially when the expert is identified as such and a moderator ensures he's given ample opportunities to talk?
@@michael7264 He does have a background though?
My doctor had a cow when I said calorie in vs calorie out. Long story short I increased caloric intake, lost 11 lbs in 2 months.
Did you tweak macronutrients?
This is like watching vegans tell me about their CrossFit routine.
No lie I think ima have to agree with gary… I think the body and brain both play a significant role together in obesity
Our language makes us believe that they are separate, when they aren't
Why can't there be a middle ground for both ideas maybe its the brain, body, genetics and maybe even gut bacteria could all play a role in this topic. The body is a simplistically complex working machine. In the words of Koffka “A Whole is Greater Than the Sum of Its Parts”.
Because each guy needs to show the other that he has a bigger dick. Apparently, throughout all their education, they skipped an Evolutionary Psych class.
Gary suffers from what most journalists suffer from, Journointerruptus.
Yeah, if the brain says, "I'm going to be lazy, sit around and do nothing but eat", the body is probably going to be fat. If the brain says, "I'm going to be active and eat in moderation", the body is not likely to be fat.
Nope, obese people do not tell themselves they're going to be lazy and just eat.
@@wilpri smokers don't tell themselves they're going to be smokers, bad habits start with bad choices
People who are fat aren’t eating because they are hungry. If I ate only due to hunger I would be thin. It is pleasure, cravings, habits, and desire-not hunger. Low carb theory says blood sugar swings up and down cause overeating, but after a few chocolates - while glucose would still be high - I already am wanting to eat more.
Get a CGM. Your blood glucose can spike quickly and drop just as quickly. In fact your blood glucose can have a large dip, lowing that what you started off with.
Anyone notice Stephans little swirl of hair? Can't stop staring.
its controlled by the brain.
Stephan sounded so whiny but he definitely carried himself more respectfully. Gary using his situation with his brother shows his lack of understanding of how a study is supposed to be conducted. I mean can he verify with confidence that he and his brother ate the exact same foods in the same quantity and at the same timing for the same period? Like, why would a guy with a science background say something like that? Is his science background like grade 10 science?
Btw I'm no expert but from my science background, there is no answer YET and it's most likely a combination of the body and the brain mis-controlling the system
It is not either or, it is all.
All systems in the body are connected, also MASSIVE environmental stressors contribute to human behavior which drives choice.
People have been manipulated for decades to move towards illness and obesity. Equals profit margins.
Now, there is a trigger in the brain that's connected to the stomach that tells you when you are full, this trigger can be diminished based on individual nutritional choices.
Also, when referencing research, people need to understand who paid for the research and how and who the (desired) results benefit.
The old guy got some pipes
It's clear that we are not all the same! Everyone agrees on that! Fact.
The law of thermo dynamics. We can't make energy out of thin air. Fact.
Even if you end up in a body that has some genetic or behavioural preference to store fat: You cannot store fat if your body isn't fed the energy.
*Please don't take this the wrong way* but in concentration camps there were no genetic mutants that managed to gain weight...
I weight 72kg my brother weights 139kg - sure we have slight genetic differences but it's just calories in-calories out.
Jeez this whole podcast was hard going. Joe needs to set out the key areas upfront and then chair it a bit more robustly and kill the bickering. None the wiser at the end of it...
Stephan Guyenet says a whole bunch without saying a thing. What a complete waste of time trying to listen to him.
You can go to his website where he posted all of his major points that he was going to bring up on the podcast. Its all there for you if you don't think he said anything.
@@uzah88 still a bunch of nothing...
Yeah he's a real dick too.
Took him 8 minutes to say he thinks the body is more responsible for fat loss than the brain
>Stephan Guyenet says a whole bunch without saying a thing.
science bitch
What happened to the whole stream?????
ready to give the young guy a 3 piece and soda...
I love Joe's fans
Great debate man👌
You guys are talkin bout sugar, but im knee deep in salt after this podcast.
I'm fat becuz i smoke weed and get the munchies .... eat all day and lay on the couch🌲👍
I smoke weed and get the munchies and eat *fairly* healthy food while maintaining a workout schedule and 12 hours of school and work 40 hours a week. Maybe don't smoke a bunch unless you're going to work out or hike or walk or bike. I love smoking a strong sativa and biking a few miles. Weed doesn't JUST make you lazy. I use it to enjoy things more that I already enjoy.
@@jonathonabel1548 true... well said 👍... something to keep in mind next time i smoke... thanks
@@jonathonabel1548 wow! Ur so responsible and motivated! Please tell us more about how awesome you are
@@jonathonabel1548 No...maybe don't be a pothead if you're going to eat sugary crap all day.
I’m fat cause I’m depressed and I’m depressed cause I eat.
Stephan J. Guyenet wins
Taub sounds like James Stewart
As a biomedical engineering student at cmu I did my thesis on mitochondrial oxidative phosphorylation thermodynamic efficiencies, ATP production of the brain liver and heart. Essentially fuel efficiency of the human body. I find this back and forth to be amusing.
Careful, that ego
22:32 Goddamnit Gary!!!!!
Why Stephen is wrong (on the issue of the cause of obesity) is because the Western world has been told for 5 decades to eat less, and we still don't. His idea is that our brains won't let us eat less. But this is despite so many of us trying. Why Gary is correct is because by eating the right food the brain receives the correct signals of satiety and we don't need or want to over eat. But I'm saying this in 2022 when this is becoming common knowledge anyway.
correct. this is known since 15 years ago!
enlightened centriism
What????? How is stephen wrong????/ You dont understand what he was saying.
Why is this episode not up?
Stephan also comes off as condescending, and doesn't want to let Gary make points while he is spewing dogma.
I don't see how you can devource the brain and body on genetics. They are both based on the same genome.
"Gary! Gary! Gary! Gary!"
The one with the jacket is such a weasel, he takes every chance to be rude
Why can't it be both? The body and mind work in unison...if one is off the other is off and vice versa. There is no end all be all. You have to take care of your body and mind by eating clean whole foods, getting consistent exercise and sunlight and your body and mind will take care of you.
Taubes busted him up!
Pretty sure the brain regulates everything.
@@L.C.Sweeney You're welcome.
Joe " get me the hell out of here" Rogan
Funny
eating in moderation and being physical is key.
If there is a next time, Joe should require them to smoke a joint before the discussion ;)
If brain regulates body fat, how do you explain experiments with transplanting gut flora from lean to fat mice and vice versa?
If gut flora can affect so much change on mouses, how can we say that brain is the main culprit? I mean I don't doubt it's a part of the picture, but it can't be all of it.
Gary needs to learn to stop interrupting people while they’re talking.
sum up: low carb diets work but not for reason Taubes believes.
Ask: how many people liberated from Dachau or Buchenwald were FAT, regardless what their weight when they stepped off the train. Lose weight=DON'T EAT!
It's so hard to listen to Guyanet. He comes off as such a smug, dogmatic jerk. He was angry and defensive before the conversation even started. And, years later, haven't we found out they're both right to a certain extent? In fact, that Guyanet is more wrong, and that our food choices and gut bacteria affect the brain MORE than vice versa? Please correct me if I'm wrong.
Kind of difficult argument. If you’re hungry, the body sends signals to brain to tell you to eat. If you eat quickly and over eat before your brain says “I’m full”. Who’s fault is it? Fatness is a result of both the body and brain.
Someone change his voicebox please.
The problem with this clip is that i see two person:
- on the first second Gary looks to me way more nice
- Stephan on the first second sounds to me more "arrogant"
Then...
- Gary takes 8 freaking minute with nobody interrupting to say that the "body is the driver instead of the brain", that is a sentence that could take literally 10 seconds maximum;
- Stephan after this 8 minute respectfully starts speaking and get interrupted from Gary at a Flash speed (remember that he wasted 8 minute to say a easy concept, and i feel that even Joe is getting impatient);
At this point i don't even listen anymore. Stephan is right. Gary is wrong.
I don't think either of these guys care about people with obesity or even science in general. They just want to be right. So annoying to listen to!
I'm curious... if the brain-centric view is correct, how is it that fat cells and processes such as lipolysis can be studied in a lab environment outside the body?
Seems like cells are more inclined to respond to signalling molecules such as insulin.
Yes it does I can slow or speed up my metabolism I’m not getting many calories right now so I’m slowing it down
Tryna bulk up
Sugar leads to all kinds of problems and one of those problems are hard to burn stored fat. Humans didn't evolve with grocery stores half full of sugars so when we found sugar seasonally or in the wild we enjoyed it and it stored hard to burn fat and energy. That's why the processed and refined sugars are so difficult to burn off once they become stored and excess fat. Eating carnivore I lost 25 lbs in two weeks and the most incredible thing about it is that I did it with ZERO exercise. When you eat only meat you are eating only once maybe twice a day and you are filled and comfortable. Sugar is extremely caustic to the human body. It burns. Think of it that way. Killing yourself in the gym is not good for pure fat weight loss and it's incredibly difficult and time consuming. Eat carnivore or keto and fast every once and a while and you will experience incredible results. Dr. Anthony Chaffee and Professor Bart Kay are the best places to start and learn...
God DAMNIT Gary!!!!!!!