After intensive dueling with a guy from the comments we've come to the following results. Keep in mind the guy is insane with multiple tournament wins under his belt and far ahead of me skill wise. i.imgur.com/MTxVaag.jpg We tested the 6.0 bearcat, it was inferior and couldn't consistently win. We tested the Yak-3 (VK-107), it managed to follow the K4 in the climb and even catch up at 7K altitude. Nothing I could've done against it, clear winner. He even joked about P2W but it is what it is and it outperforms the K4. Last plane tested was the Corsair 4B. This was a tricky one, I always managed to gain an advantage and get in to a boom 'n' zoom fight. However I only managed to win 1 out of a dozen duels. Being killed in reversals where the corsair could hang in the air for long enough after I overshoot to kill me. Although he was insane at evading and shot like a god killing me from 1.4km multiple times. So if you're insanely good like this guy way, the corsair can win. If anyone else has a suggestion and would like to try it out feel free to message me and we can try it out.
From the link (which I assume is this other pilots stats) he isn't doing as good as you are in a K4. Did you guys switch planes around or was it you in the K4 and him in those planes you listed? Not trying to throw shade at him (whoever he is) but it'd be more objective if you switched planes.
Stats don't always tell everything, the guy's undoubtedly better than me. Unfortunately no we didn't switch the planes but I'm certain I couldn't replicate what he did in the corsair for example.
the plane doesn't win, pilots win the plane can't win for you unless you fly it in some kind of auto-pilot combat mode and even then it's only as good as the software makes it All these so called "advantages", energy-retention all that bullshit, are only as useful as the pilot can make use of them. If you're a suck-ass pilot you're going to lose, no matter what you and the enemy are flying. The only questions that matter are what kinds of pilot-plane combinations can you beat. In the game. Since you're never going to be a combat pilot in real life. So that resolves to a dichotomy. Can you outfly a competing plane-pilot combination even with full knowledge of their "strengths and weaknesses" vs you and your plane? This resolves to 2 questions. Can you win when you have an advantage, and not lose when you have a disadvantage? Maybe you never win but that's better than losing even once. Situational advantages and lack of awareness are going to give you some victories no matter the relative strengths and weaknesses. They're going to cost you some losses, as well. But now you're talking about strategic strengths not tactical strengths. "Boom and zoom" almost by definition means that you're pouncing on unsuspecting dogfighters at lower altitudes and airspeeds but not all dogfighters are unspecting and can induce overshoots and make kills that way. Poor pilots turn strategic advantages into losses, but the winning pilot still needs to be good enough to make the kill. Just as the losing pilot has to be willing to fly into combat and unable to escape without getting shot down. So flying planes "head to head" 1 on 1 doesn't really say a whole lot more than one pilot is better than the other, because the real question is how do the two planes compete against the general population of planes in general combat when flown with a wide variety of techniques in a variety of situations. Then and only then can strong trends be identified and isolated. What this guy is doing here is the classic mistake of trying to generalize from a single example. Two guys flying head to head repeatedly say more about the pilots than the planes they're flying. Yeah sure maybe one plane is slower, has a lower climb-rate, can't turn as well in sustained turns due to various factors, yes, even considering the fact that it's a game and not RL, but in real-world combat, even in a game, pilots will avoid relying on weaknesses and try to exploit strengths, and it's really hard to tell what strengths and weaknesses matter or how to relate them together successfully unless you're flying "real world combat". Flying against more than one pilot, more than one plane, in more than one scenario. The strength of statistical data is in large sample-sets. Not small, narrowly-focused ones. Correlation vs causation. For example, maybe one plane has a 20mph lower top speed than another. But does it matter in real-world combat? Not if...the two planes are likely to meet another plane during the chase. Not if the faster plane will run out of fuel during the chase... Real combat is not nearly as simple as which plane "outperforms" the other. Would you bet another pilot that you have a faster plane if you know their plane is faster than yours? No. Strategy and tactics play to strengths against weaknesses, magnifying strengths and minimizing weaknesses. But combat is always between two planes and therefore it is a matter of the chess-match between two pilots or two opposing forces. Not just between performance-data. If combat results were directly predictable from performance-data then why would anyone be bothered to actually play the game?
I feel like people in war thunder are losing their grasps on what air combat actually is. It's not a case of who turns better, it's not a case of "he who runs loses", and it's not a case of being in a fair match. Air combat is all about dictating the fight. The plane that's able to dictate the fight wins. With the D-30 against the K-4, the K-4 is the one able to dictate the fight. Once locked in combat, the D-30 has no options. If the K-4 wants to run away, it will. If the D-30 wants to run away, it can't. It's all in the K-4's hands. The K-4 is the plane that's able to decide when and when not to attack, when to run, and when to fight. The D-30 doesn't get these options. So yeah, at low altitude it may perform better, it may have over performing guns, it may turn better. But all that's useless if the D-30 simply isn't allowed to use these advantages.
Duels are also supposed to be played in same planes, it's like asking me to turn fight a zero in a mustang... This way each one has to play to their advantage, but climb and speed are what wins a fight, not turning ability. That's why planes evolved to go fast instead of turning tightly.
@ImSnowzy That's really subjective. I have a fun time in the game when I blow planes up. If I'm dog fighting a spitfire in a 109, that's not going to happen. I assume this video is in RB and it's for people who play RB. Many people who play RB are people who want this level of realism, fighting for the advantage, then attacking your target. Not everyone enjoys this long and seemingly boring form of play, but personally it's the reason I play. I enjoy that realistic level of fighting. The same thing would happen in real life, if it meant you (as a pilot) wouldn't die, you'd probably run away first too. These duels were supposed to show what happens in realistic battles. They weren't for fun, however, that doesn't mean people don't do duels just for fun :P
Wango How to combat “but guess who won the war” kids, just say who had better stuff and was able to fight to death as well as knowing for a damn fact the allies could never pull off what Germany did.
@@jakobczarnecki5131 Spitfires have a supercharger too. The mustang should be faster yes, but the Spitfires energy retention in this game is appalling, it's acceleration isn't great, the engine overheats like mad, and it's guns don't work.
@@ArchangelsSword yea i know its just sad that war thunder cant figure out how and i feel like the guy he was fighting was dumb and the p51 can dive faster than the 109
@@ArchangelsSword gayjin fucked the British tree into the dirt, it's honestly a Forsaken plane that could back when it was good, turn fight zeros but now it can't turn bf 109s. Tl;dr gayjin fucked up again
Players: okay look here buddy, historically-... Gaijin: Look that plane's too good so people aren't buying premiums from that nation. Nerf the gun performance and let's make some dough.
It can't outclimb anything, nor outrun, neither outgun, but the turning is very good. Thing is: the Swordfish is a plane designed to drop torpedos (pretty much.) The Po-2 (2-OP xd) was primarily an instructor aircraft, but could deliver mail or bombs. Neither of the latter were designed for fighting enemy aircraft.
MyUnoriginalUsername 🤔...Fury......😳......😂🤣😂🤣😂🤣😂🤣😂🤣😂🤣😂🤣😂🤣😂🤣😂🤣😂🤣😂😆😄😃🙂🤨yeah right.....wanna go 1 🆚 1( you and me)? Tell you what ..you in a “FURY” and I...not a K4 but lower 🤔 ..BF-109 G10, what do you say ?
At the end of the day, I think it really doesn't come down to statistically which plane is better, but rather the pilot and the conditions that they operate under.
@@nikolaihill7364 One thing is having a plane better then the other then maybe outskill it and other thing is being an idiot and crashing your jet to the ground to a bi plane
I remember thinking "how are German planes so good wtfffff ewwww op" then I tried German planes and holy shit if you want to master the game just play them. It's a whole new way of playing compared to other nations
A bit late, but the german planes aren't more difficult to play but require a different style. Because of this, I tend to get destroyed in all other trees, because i'm used to energy fighting.
@@Slender1870 you can mostly get away with it while playing the Americans since it’s basically the same tech tree aside from turn rates going from slow to retarded and borderline op at high speeds Also pilot snipes with latewar brownings It just happens every single time
I am a german main from a soviet main, Got to 5.7 soviet on both tanks and planes and when I switched to germany I was absolute shit because soviets were pretty much point and click, Now I am toptier german planes and tanks with a average of 3.0-4.0 KD in pretty much any german vehicle, Yet I still constantly hear "Germant suffers" Yea germany suffers... From shit players.
i was just saying, if the p51H is better than the spit mk24 and it's at 6.3 so it would be logical the have the spit mk24 at the same br as the p51H... anyway wasn't the p51H 6.7 when it was added? EDIT: i'm just curious but why can' the spit mk24 not be at 6.3?
Adam was talking about a dogfight without running. I don’t think it’s fair to only focus on one planes advantages. Same deal with Adam, he was basically only focusing on maneuvering fights which the mustang will always win. It really just depends on the player and how he exploits his planes advantages and disadvantages.
Even if the P51 under ideal circumstances can win in a duel against a K4, it’s performance for teams are vastly inferior. I played the D30 and the D5 extensively to get the H and the F82. 109 pilots often can out-climb me, taking away my best and almost always only way of attacking another air craft by Boom and Zooming. In a duel I can’t even dream of turn-fighting. 109 energy retention is so much better, I’ve been shot down even after pulling out of my attack attempts from above. Even if I managed to run away at low level flight, the battle is lost because I’m allowing him to dictate his altitude and returning to the battle is suicide. Unless this is real life and I have the Atlantic Ocean as a climbing zone, there’s not a thing I can do when I hear those cannons whiz from above.
i think the best thing to do is message messer and fight him in a bf 109 and also in a d30, far as i saw, everytime adam flew against you he dove down and ran away though. ask adam for a proper fight , somedays i seen him be lazy like this and other days he flat out fights hard. also nice merging! i love merging and keeping my energy
I agree COMPLETELY, but the D30 wasn't a WWII era aircraft, it was in fact a product of the korean war where the US wanted to convert old fighters into fast ground attackers. They made it so it could withstand more hits from ground fire (slightly) and tried to improve low alt performance.
The Stall speed on 109 is very good compared to other planes, simply because of the slats in the wings. That's why earlier 109s like the E and F were actually out turning Spitfires in the hands of good pilots.
I think I get the discrepancy here. He was thinking in terms of dogfights, in which case the P-51 has an advantage, you are thinking in terms of energy fights and using the 109 to it's full potential, and instead of testing strictly dogfights, using energy to avoid maneuver fights all together until you got the best position. I bet this is also why he kept turning in on you so early, because he expected a dogfight. If a 51 can force/trick a 109 into a maneuvering fight, it is most likely superior, but as you showed, the 109 does have several options against them.
bh5496 The problem is that even though Byralie kept saying to Adam that the BF has an advantage in outright battles, Adam keeps reverting "yeah but in a dogfight I can win". Yes, in a dogfight of course the D30 will win. But reality is in most situations, energy > dogfight. It would not have been so much of a source of argument if Adam only admitted that the D30 will lose if it was taken out of its comfort zone, which, against a K4, will be most of the time
bh5496 LoL !! It's a dogfight too. But the tactics are different. If you consider turn fight then the Japanese Zeros are best among all the aircrafts of WW2. Americans used same tactics as they didn't turn against Zeros in dogfights.
+Dipon Ahmed Let’s not be pedantic. Dogfight in this context is of course referring to a close quarters maneuvering fight. Also seems a bit moot to bring up the Zero since no one was talking about the ‘best’ maneuver fighter.
@@epitosu6461 But Adam's video was explicitly about BF109 vs P51D30 in a dogfight, he never took the conversation out of that perspective, other people did.
Harr darr The title of Adams video was “What can Germany do?” The answer is not dogfight, which you can do by just playing energy. Which you will win 9/10 times vs a D30
There was only one thing conclusively unquestionably better about the P-51: Its wings were full of better fuel allowing for more supercharging. 130 or 150 octane versus 87 or 100 octane. That was the decisive difference. Why this is constantly dismissed or ignored I have no idea. I wonder whether that is being accurately simulated.
I see both sides of the argument. It is of course an incredible advantage when you can break from the fight and reengage when you have an advantage. This can definitely be used to destroy the enemy and archieve victory. That's something that Germans used to great effect. The great roll rate of the FW190s could be used do break off a fight with a Spitfire because it couldn't follow in a dive. Even the Dora version because of the much sturdier wings that the Spit. They could disengage at will and attack later with the advantage. Same for the TA152, even if mostly hypothetically. Although in this case they could just use their great speed to disengage. Most of the kills were historically made without the enemy knowing you are there and lots of the highly successful pilots would mostly attack when they have the definite advantage. So there obviously is a point. But sometimes you cannot chose. When the fight between the K4 and the P51 has started, the the fight is on. In this dogfight, the P51 will easily best the K4. That is what Adam argued for. You guys are just viewing it with different viewpoints. In the end, I personally agree more with Adam on this one.
there is a reason why the k4 sits at a higher br than the d30... the K4 outperforms the d30 quite good, if you play the K4 at maximum to its strength then a duel will always be won by the k4... the only thing the d30 is doing better is speed on the deck and diving as well as high speed manuverbillity... Adam will always loose in a D30 when the k4 is flying to its maximum potential, no matter what adam does, he can outdive the k4 to the deck and then give it a run, but running on the deck is like loosing, k4 will not dive with him, keep altitude and either wait for the p51 to go outside the capturig area, or the p51 has to turn to stay inside the area, and that will make it slow, the k4 can then boom and zoom the hack out of it... there is a reason for the br, the difference is not extremly big but its noticable, when the k4 is flown to maximum and the p51 is flown to maximum, k4 will almost win every 1 v 1 duel in this scenario... and the k4 can disengage at altitude whenever it wants, its faster and its power to weight ratio is better whitch results in energy atvantage for the k4 player... we can discuss about earlier 109 versions, the g6 for example will not be able to outspeed the d30 at altitude, but the k4 does, it can catch up to the d30 and disengage whenever it wants to + getting the energy advatage over time, thats why there is a br difference and the k4 will win. what this video at least shows, that the claim adam will easily beat him in the d30 is wrong, and debunked... adam really flew bad... try to rung and catch after turning and stuff... but the k4 was flown always straight to get the advantage, it outperformed by straight flying, adam could not catch up and could not run, there are reasons for that, and poor piloting and flat turning is one reason for that, performance difference is the other reason for that, the br difference is reasonable.
Simon56 Definitely agreed. In a way it almost seems like the two were arguing for different points overall... Not to mention how it turned into a dick measuring contest to see who's "better" rather than proving points. There's a huge difference in the civility and integrity of an argument between "I won" and "I'm toying with you", and "This plane won, with me as a pilot very familiar in its usage" and "This plane lost, but I think it depends on the situation and rulesets".
There's nothing i can say since i haven't tried the K4 yet but you have to also consider that in WW2 there isn't a third person camera and HUD. The enemy pilot or you won't always watch your back when you are focusing on a single fighter. You will only realize that there is enemy on you only if you saw the bullets or hearing it.
@@flachzangelp1102 But this wasn't what Adam was trying to argue for. He was arguing the case of a straight dogfight rather than flying straight to drain your opponents energy. Yes the K4 will best a D30 if flown to its strengths everytime; however, the argument here is when the K4 is outside its comfort zone. When that is the case, the K4 will lose as D30 holds the advantage in flaps and low speed turning (in other words a turnfight where both opponents have the same energy).
I have a tendency not to advocate a point I'm not positive is true. That's why I played a couple dozen duels against a better pilot than myself in which we swapped around planes. If the K4 is played the same way it is in the video the guy in the Mustang is really hopeless no matter the skill.
both of you guys have different points of view on what part makes the plane good. obviously in normal matches both these work against randos. but in a duel, a player who plays its cards right in the k4 will win i guess
I really like Adam's channel but this time he was being a little kid. You clearly showed a massive advantage gap between 2 planes and Kurfurst is just superior to D30 in almost every way. ''no it's boring'' was his answer when you suggested he can run and that's the moment which sums this all up. He just made a bold claim and when you called him out on that he just acted like a child. He could've easily said fair point because it honestly was.
K4 has inferior speed retention because of its thicker wings. The p-51 can maneuver tighter at speed. Also because of its laminar flow wings a fully upgraded d-30 is better in both regards what isn’t considered is the climb rate. Which in real life was irrelevant. Is very important in warthunder and german planes climb like weather baloons
Sir Illuminar The Valient not in SIM, I eat K4’s for breakfast in sim, most of the time I kill them without them seeing me cause blind spots are a thing! 😝
Whomever is better at air combat maneuvering will be the winner. Proven in real life with inferior aircraft operating against superior aircraft. An experienced pilot who knows what his plane can do will "out perform" a rookie with the latest and greatest.
No the guy that puts the most time in custom battles dueling is the guy that will win. These guys are trash at dueling, and have no idea what they are doing. If you wanna see real dueling, check out Zelator war thunder
Turn fighting is seen as an inferior way of fighting in air to air combat, most people who just entered air to air combat will do the "turn fight". You'll be surprised how many turn fighters killed by energy fighters, it's a lot.
All i saw in the comment log was you "i won i won" and adam trying to be polite... the duel was meant to show the dog fighting abilities of the planes no? Not a piss contest...
You're a straight G mate, not only did it take some serious balls to call out a more skilled player on some BS, but you took it the next level and actually put your money where your mouth is. Well done and hats off to you.
Byralie I hope youve remembered that the K is currently running on an almost star wars level unrealistic flight model. If accurate it would not be able to hold a dive with any mustang after the D-5 without locking up and lawndarting well before its counterpart. Not to mention the horizontal e-retention is lacking as well but otherwise, it is a great aircraft.
With no doubt K4 is a better plane now after 1.79 but i think D30 was a lot better before! Adam is a good guy but we can see he´s very stubborn! Nice video mate!
Even historically the K-4 is recognized as a variant that out performed Mustang D models. In the war the battles were one sighted thanks to tactical disadvantages more so than mechanical ones
It does, but only on the later P-51s as an upgrade. The early P-51s IIRC don't get 150 octane fuel, though it's been a while since I've flown them so it could have changed
That's a stupid question how would the game reflect that? If the P51 gets its fuel tank shot up by incendiaries it just explodes prettier? The k4 had a more powerful engine so even though it was using lower octane fuel it had something near 300 more horsepower.
The game does reflect it by giving a significant boost to overall horsepower of the P-51s when they use 150 octane fuel... not like it matters though because as you said the Bf-109K has a more powerful engine just as standard
well in fairness the 150 ocatne mustang had more manidold power despite the engine being smaller, which made it more powerful at max throttle than a 109, though the 109 engine was closer to fucking magic than engineering with how it kept up for so long.
it was more powerful than earlier bf109s, but not the k4s engine, specifically the DC running, slightly better but still shitty, c3 fuel was putting out 1972 horsepower at full throttle. p51d30 put out 1590 full throttle. If we're talking about the H series p51's then yea its a better engine than the K4's, but thats not what the video was about. I was comparing the D30 to the K4.
I do think that 190 flies better in WT than IL2 and DCS combined. (Even a german ace, who played DCS, complained about the lacking flightmodel of the D9 :D)
K4 ain't that special, 109s aren't bad planes but but by the time you get into 4.7-5.7 109s their performance does get a hit in the neck not the plane itself but the fact that allied planes start to climb better and also be much fater like the P51D being able to hold up to 840 km/h in a dive before breaking apart, also lets not forget about the buff they received by making them less sluggish and giving them more power when it comes to WEP, at 4.7-5.7 the allied teams could easily beat the german teams if they would bother to climb and to actually hold that alt if they do instead of diving after 1 guy in a group of 3-4 players or if they wouldn't just hunt bombers and let the rest of their team die :P
You're factually wrong, the only plane that climbs better than late 109's is the LF9 spit. Also did you even watch the video? D30 is slower than the K4 up at altitude. The performance of late 109's and Doras is unmatched by anything the allies have up until 6.3.
i would say the d9 and g14 are much better than the k4 when versing allies tho, the k4's horrible turn under 350km/h really grinds my gears, its so anoying to be a fucking brick when you have just that slight advantage in energy that in for example a g14, you could just cash into a turn and kill.
It's true the G14 is more maneuverable but the D9 is not, in fact no 190 turns better at any speed that any 109, I'll still take the K4 just for it's insane rate of climb compared to the other two but the G10 and 14 are close seconds imo.
dude i get you like the k4, but the d9 is definitly better turning. sure the k4 retains more energy, but when it gets to mid-slow speed its turning radious becomes atrocious with any flaps. omn the other hand the d9 can use flaps and that speed to keep up with the enemies at the cost of energy
Allrighty then, I'm not the one to spew unchecked things. If you'd like to come duel me, the D9 vs the K4 and if you manage to outturn me I'll stand corrected.
So, if the K4 had decided to go into the turnfight, what the P-51 wants to do is to outmaneuver at high speeds, right?And if things start to get slower, P-51 should disengage and restart the encounter, due to the better turn rate at low speeds of the bf 109? I´m asking mostly because most K4s in game will try to outmaneuver you, and I´m not very good at turnfights.
I find it interesting that much of what you say is true, but irrelevant! The 109's advantages are not speed and climb because this game is not realistic. It's just a game with the performance parameters adjusted to please the customers? No RECIP plane can run at WOT for more than 5 minutes back then! NONE! Real speed in real planes in a real war is how fast will it go at METO, or Maximum Except Take Off, or Maximum Continuous throttle! Under those conditions the P-51, depending on the model is 40-70 MPH faster than the Me-109!Then there is the altitude advantage. The P-51 can cruise at >40,000' an altitude the 109 can only reach at full throttle. So before the fight starts his engine is about to explode and he must throttle back while the P-51 has thousands of feet of altitude advantage to start, a lower wing loading, a 70 MPH speed advantage and enough gas on board to fly back to England after 20 minutes at METO Combat while the 109 is almost out of gas. Pilot skill makes or breaks all!But back to the opening remark. The Me-109's strengths are a Motorkanone mounted on the CL, LE Slats that allow a higher AoA, smaller size which makes it harder to see, NONE of which matter in this game because it is not modeled realistically!In addition, the faster you go in a 109, the worse the Instantaneous Rate of Roll and Sustained Rate of Roll get while the P-51's roll performance also degrades with speed, the rate of decline is very much slower with increasing speed, at least in real life planes.The other part of this is that your "Dog Fights" were very un realistic in their tactics and executions. If I was in an aircraft with advantages and disadvantages that were drastically mismatched with my opponent, Why on Earth would I fight my worst attributes Vs his best? Why wouldn't I use my best bits against his worst? Why would I enter into a fight at such low altitude where his Hydraulically driven blower gives him an edge, instead of starting up high where my two stage/two speed blower gives it all to me? Where my lower wing loading gives me a tighter turn radius at a slightly higher speed, the so called "Corner Velocity" where there is nothing he can do to escape? (Except get lucky if I run out of ammunition?) If on the other hand, if the 109 starts advantaged, how about feeding him a nice "Rolling Scissors" until he slides out in front of my wonderful .50s?Just because your opponent was a turkey and the game is biased and unrealistic, do not think the result proved anything!
Stewart Davies Don’t blame “this game is bias and unrealistic” as your excuse. Just admit the K is better. How is that relate to the subject? You can’t bring real world problems to a FUCKING GAME. If you do, you automatically lose the argument. You lost credibility
ua-cam.com/video/1PA70pN6zPM/v-deo.html this is a long video but extremely informative specifically about the different engine specs of the me 109 k and late g models. my biggest take-away from this video is that there were way too many different specifications of me 109 flying at the end of the war the generalize that any given p51 is 40-70 mph faster, it's just not true. since in war thunder all the planes are upgraded to their theoretical maximum it's totally realistic that his "idealized" me 109k is faster at altitude that the p51. how many actual aircraft in that specification were fielded during the war is irrelevant.
I take it you are a butthurt american? Where in the video did he ever state "The 109k was better than the P51 in ww2?" Original video was about a game, this video was about a game.
Dr. No you still gotta admit this match didn’t really prove anything. A corps would have flown the mustang better than this guy did. America is the best 🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸
They're comparable in the video game. Success for either depends on the pilot as in real life. If you crunch the real numbers the American fighter is the better performer all the way around. Still many were killed by german fighters. It's mostly opportunity meets pilot skill.
Hi, I am a K-4 pilot myself and got 1680 kills in it while having 242 deaths. It is a amazing plane. The D-30 is a dangerous opponent only if it ganks you with support from other enemy fighters, but 1v1 I agree with you and confirm, that the K-4 is superior. Even at low speeds with flaps enable you can keep up with the D-30 and stay on its 6 long enough to shoot it down any day of the week and twice on sunday.
Ben Cristofani I was playing against mouse aimers a few days ago and I was using full real controls with stick and throttle, I was able to kill the K4 in a reverse BnZ into rolling scissors at high speed. Seems to work great cause the 109 seems to lose maneuverability at high speed whereas the p51 just becomes more maneuverable.
Ben Cristofani at first the 109 tried to out climb me which worked in his favor because he had greater climb rate and more maneuverability at slower speeds, he ended up on my six, I extended, amd we were pretty even, he had advantage since he had guns on me, I was able to increase the gap to about 2km where I inverted into a split S, but pulled all the way through into a merge vertically to rope a dope him, which worked perfectly because he followed me in the split S, and he lacked the maneuverability to counter rolling scissors at that speed, which was pretty awesome to see, I noticed at normal corner speed, the P51 actually has a tighter turn circle than the K4 in a horizontal turn. I believe this is due to having higher horse power and more wing surface area.
Lui_Boulevard well, they were both designed as air pursuit type fighters in their original forms. As their designs progressed the K-4 *was* optimized for interception while the D-30 for escort and air to air
@@air-headedaviator1805 *LONG* From what im reading up, BF 109s were made to combat spitfires. The production requirements included, but weren't limited to: high speed flight, short range interception, and the ability to reach ~6,000m within 17 minutes. The Mustang's primary directive was visibility, high altitude (10,000m) performance with a two stage supercharger for consistent speed at said altitude, ("fast" climb not stated, possibly a side effect?) and range. In war thunder, people rarely fight at 10,000m. I speculate that we don't experience the P-51's true altitude potential because we aren't high enough, while we fight at 6,000m in almost every prop battle; the perfect *intended* altitude for the BF 109. I believe the weight of both aircraft play a significant part in their high altitude performance. The BF 109's light weight provided unintended quality performance at high altitude, while the P-51's weight was a result of additional fuel tanks in the fuselage to "reel the CoM back", due to the engine's weight alone, this allowed extended range and flight duration, but sub-par performance at certain altitudes, where its performance would out do other aircraft simply because the others' were exponentially losing flight quality overall once they exceeded their intended altitude, and reached closer to their ceiling.
The p 51 was made for long range to escort bombers. So the real advantage it had historically was it came into battle pre climbed and it had plenty of friendly planes to use as bait. Also probably a numbers advantage too. Honestly US air is basically designed to fail in the warthunder formula as far as fighting Germany goes.
Lui_Boulevard thats pretty true. Infact in almost any combat sim game the fight scenarios are always super low to the ground normally, and for the US’s premier frontline aircraft thats usually their least optimum fighting condition.
You completely missed Adam's point, he did his entire video in close quarters combat, and every single video of 'What can () do?' have been this way, you're only proving that YOU didn't understand his video.
Actually his point was that the Mustang was "better than any other German prop” and he tried to prove it with the method where the Mustang could win. If it was so the he51 would be better
wow ! what a "gunnery" performance man !!! at 3:13 min. ! i loved how you shot toward the front of his flight - and the shells caught up with him ... : )) LONG LIVE THE 109
Also loving that 79kmh difference on the deck is a “slight difference” but at altitude the mustang was only behind about 13kmh and that’s considered “significant” DONT know why no one has noticed that.
Well..I actually agreed and subscribed,the only reason for a P51D to wreck a 109 is just cause 109s are harder to fly than ALL of the american plane tech tree.
Harder to fly? Excuse me but thats just complete bullshit. The Bf 109 is the easiest plane to do well with in the entire game just because it has one of the best climbrates, energy retentions and accelerations. They can do whatever they want when they want. American planes need to sideclimb for 20 minutes, then stay above 5km and 400kph to actually do anything.
Man I don’t know. I’ve just gotten started and I have the 109 B-1 and E-1 and aside from maybe the He 100 D-1 they’re the easiest planes I have. Even though the B-1 has the same weapons as the German reserve biplanes the outstanding performance of the plane makes up for it. The low tier 109s are very fast and it’s very easy to keep the speed up and get an altitude advantage over virtually anything. On the American side I’m just getting into the P-40s and while the firepower is fantastic their high speed handling is very poor compared to the 109, particularly the F model which is virtually uncontrollable within 50 kph of its rated top speed. I still love the American planes because the .50 cals are a riot to use, but they don’t fly as nice as the 109s IMO.
Necroph0rus You said “all”, so I assumed you meant all, including the low tier planes. Obviously I don’t have an opinion on higher tier planes. Maybe you’re right, maybe you’re not, I can’t really know and I’ll adjust when I get there.
Any one that has flown a realistic Flight sim game like Aces High knows the K can fly circles around a 51... it can engage and disengage at will and that's the name of the game.... Americans get caught up in the Hollywood propaganda of it all and the reason the 51's did well in that last year of the war was because of their overwhelming numbers.
@@ionisingcarbonx1010 I suggest to you try Ace's High a real lift sim and try some duel matches in your beloved 51... you'll get the point... Gaijin is arcade kiddie crap.
American planes are way easier to master although some of them have limited wep so i guess thats ome thing to master. While German Prop planes are really hard to master i get around i used to get 2-1 kills but recently i have flown it better i got quite a lot of kills around 3-5 now. Also Adam has matured quite a lot now. He has become way more tuned in how energy fighting works.
@@deusexmachina8112 that simply isn't true. Unless you are speaking for yourself American planes at just has hard to learn if not harder to learn to fly than the bf 109s.
@@ushikiii American arplaines turn faster, have the potential to climb really high, superior altitude fighting, and are fucking fast. Tell me how do they lack behind? They are extremely easy to use with just extreme use of bnz. Germans generally do better bcz of teamwork. Its the complete opposite of ground battles where american tanks are worse but generally do better because german tankers are shit.
@@deusexmachina8112 They don't turn that much quicker, did you even see Adams fucking video. The Bf 109 can sustain energy better so if in the right hands you should be able to win a dog fight with a p51s. Having a 1 percent better turn rate is irrelevant. They climb quickly? Is that why in every engagement the bf 109s are on the top when it comes to altitude? Look at the climb rate buddy. In this case the bf is better at altitude. They are quicker? Tell me... did you not just watch the video? They aren't quicker in altitude. Just say you didn't and go watch it, I just want you to fuck off.
I don't know if this is what's supposed to happen but when I fly the k-4 right around 3000m - 4000m it loses A LOT of engine power and really slows my climb, plus I like to fight at that altitude. Is there a way to fix this? or will this happen no matter what?
The p51 has never been insanely better than a 109, it is about what a pilot is most comfortable in, i can beat p51s in a fw190 a8 or tempest but struggle against them in spitfires
Running or disengagement the k4 is good at in an actual 1v1 dogfight the d30 has more than a chance to kill the k4 close in. Adams point in which I agree with but your point is that the k4 is good at things which most good fighters are lmao it’s more general than specific.
Byralie I hope you realize the k4 and d30 are more closely matched than a zero vs a mustang.... if not than you are really slow. The k4 has some chance if handled right the p51 has no chance no matter how handled unless it’s at high-speed or momentum fights like @vannsinn or whatever his UA-cam is. (Not to mention this convo has nothing to do with the zero in the first place especially if we are discussing energy fighters in dogfights/1v1 scenarios.)
Unfortunately for them the maps in the game aren't endless, 109's climb, position themselves and catch them in a dive. If the maps were endless they could indeed run away.
If there's anything that adam failed to say is how his opinions are valid in public match.. rather than a tourney.. we should change it to 2v2 or 3v3.. which can be more complex, and that 1,5km/h is very hard to take advantages of in that situation..
I think you lost the point of Adam's video. It's so true that you won those battles and that you're better pilot, but Adam's approach is putting 2 "more or less similar fighters" on a dodgefight-close-combat scenario that they don't necessary fit in. Of course in a 1vs1 situation there is no point on dodgefighting "closecombat style" with energy fighters, but that's the "spice" on Adam's videos. Sometimes you have to dodgefight even with a K4, due to enemies positions or whatever, and that's the interesting part of his videos. Because of that you can find videos on his channel where you find certain planes outside their comfort zones, showing people what can they do inside those nasty situations. Anyway your purpose on this video is clear. Making your point is just the previous step of your real goal: mocking around while getting viewers. Congrats for the 1'5k views, it's a real "step ahead" from your previous (and probably future) videos.
Rispido E. Can you step out of adams fan/friend/lover(not judging) shoes just for a moment. This was not about the players and their skill, this has nothing to do with views, (shit number of views = 3xshit number of views). This is about the vehicles and their capabilities in war thunder. The initial question was "what can german planes do?" Adams answer was misleading, benjo0 corrected him, and later corrected himself, for the benefit of the community. Noones comparing individual skill between adam and benjo0, noones trying to "get views" or use other channels for their own benefit. Frankly, the idea that somebody is mooching of such a small channel as adams is a bit ridicules. If you like adams channel thats great but try to think critically and recognize mistakes such channels make for your own benefit.
"Not judging", hahaha. How old are you? 6? You can't say whatever you want and avoid responsability like a kid, Coka39. Imagine that I tell you: please, stop licking Byralie's balls + not judging. I don't give a thing if A is better than B, or if Adam is not a "megapro". I cannot care less. I just pointed that the approach was different, because one thing is a close-combat scenario and another using the entire map in your convenience. And I repeat, is Byralie better than Adam talking about skill? I cannot care less, probably yes. I'm not taking any sides here, but I just think that this video is tricky because of that. Finally I just pointed an empiric data about this YT Channel: 30% of the total views are because of this video.
Rispido E. Id say i try to watch my sodium intake. See, try not ro take jokes too seriously. You are yet again comparing the 2 players, you insist to miss the point of the video. When you say close combat you mean turn fighting at knife point? So zero best mono plane prop in game? If you are comparing 2 planes there is much more to each plane then that but if turnfighting is interesting to you great. Again the question was what can 109s do? Much more then what adam is arguing. Another empirical fact : 30% of next to no views = next to no views. 200% of next to no views = next to no views. 500% of... you get the point. The notion he was trying to win over the 12 guys that follow adam for his own enormous gain is a bit funny.
If that was true, he wouldn't call it "What can Germany do" and then show subtitles and chat about how Bf-109s are trash and inferior. He clearly wanted to present his opinion about Bf-109s and P-51D-30 in general and about how playing Germany is difficult, neither of which is true.
Here's real life facts about the Bf-109 and P-51 just for anyone that's interested in how the planes worked in real life. Bf-109K4 was never used in service. At high altitudes the P-51D outperformed the Bf-109's that weren't designed to perform at altitudes the P-51d was designed for, to do bomber escorts. In real life the P-51's engine outperformed the Bf-109 at every single altitude. This was because the P-51 used higher octane fuel increasing the engine manifold pressure. and the Supercharger on the Merlin engine was superior to that of the Bf-109. Germany could have made a superior fighter if only they weren't out of resources. The K variant realistically would have been even in terms of performance at all altitudes compared to the P-51. Thats because Germany used water methanol injection on the K4. It's actually pretty ingenious really. The P-51d used 150 octane while the Bf-109K4 would be using 90 octane like the G variants. But the water methanol injection would have put the planes on equal terms. But the allies would have countered the K4 had it entered service easily with the P-51H variant which had a bigger engine, used 150 octane fuel, and used water methanol injection just like the K4. Only problem with water methanol injection tho is it's not good for the engine so more maintenance is required.
remember this is only a game. So it isn’t a 100% super accurate comparison for the planes IRL. No discredit to this video, or the plane A few more notes Don’t ever trash either these aircraft IRL. The mustang had to make compromises to increase its range (literally 1/3 of the plane is fuel), and even then it would come down to whoever played their strengths, if the mustang lured the Bf-109K into a turnfight or down lower, it had a nice advantage. If a Bf-109K used the tactics similar to those in the video, it enjoyed the advantage. I think both aircraft are good where they are, minus the cannon buff.
@Undefined Logic you are somewhat right, but thr problem is that late in the war nobodyneeded a short range fighter, as they were plentiful. The P-51B was designed to fill an important role, not for bragging rights many years later
KrankysFirebrand48 How many WWII aces can buy G-force resistance? How many wwiii aces can literally pull a flawless, hyper-consistent turn? How many wwii aces can literally see through the aircraft? How many wwii aces can point and click to get what is basically borderline Aimbot? Cannons are just as broken, if not more broken than .50s.
No_Fun_Allowed Yes this is true. But all aircraft have these conditions. The dogfight will always depend on who is the best pilot. But when comparing the best aircraft you must see past the pilots point of view. And cannons are doing as they should be. Except the 30mm which is under-performing massively
I think the biggest mistake here was trying to get the D30 to dogfight. American planes have a hard time turning (for the most part), but their speed is pretty solid. BnZ always seemed to work out better for me. It all comes down to how well you can fly your plane.
In all honesty I’ve played both aircraft and in my opinion I’ve totally washed 109 k 4s in my d30 and vise versa it’s fair because while the d30 is scary in speed maneuvers, turnfights, energy control, and momentum fighting it isn’t the best in the climb atleast not sustainable at low alt // tbh in my conclusion the k4 is one of the easiest props to play, and for me has less of a stigma behind its performance because even back then before the 109 buff they stomped IMO but for me I feel the d30 carry’s this sort of pressure with playing it especially with the tendency of USA teams to be trash although German teams are starting to get the same way but not as bad I am more confident meaning I take more risks and am not so tense that I mess up (but I have sometimes) I just slaughtered p47Ms nearly stock and fought a p 47d up at 12km he was running and trying to extreme alt fight me in which the k4 isn’t so good at comparing it to us planes but I made him think I was letting him go as I cleverly dragged him to 9-8km up and I gained speed, caught him, and he payed dearly with 30mm round blowing him to smithereens, nothing left. But I have an anxiety issue to were if I’m not confident then I mess up which is what happens in the p 51d30 to me and it’ll be so simple and I could of had the 109 but I missed and on top of that the whole team dies and I’m left to fight 10-3 planes (I’ve won 1v5 and that’s my comfortability cut off in a disadvantage) in conclusion both planes match up pretty well but if one is played correctly they are extremely deadly also weirdly enough I’ve out ran Ta 152s and 109k4s but if you let a k 4 catch you at a certain speed he can accelerate up to you. And will catch u in a dive if not careful so it’s good you go fast asf (over 470mph is where it locks up then fight him at high speed, or get him in a drawn out turnfight but only if you are alone) but an advantage I like is that it doesn’t over heat as fast but only slightly otherwise I love flying the k4 and the d30 they are utterly stunning but since I’ve got the k4 it’s sorta easy mode if I’m calm.
Ken R.B. Johnsen Ken R.B. No one is forced to read it but ok lmao. Also not everyone speaks Primarily English but I guess we forget ppl who know multiple languages....But I do respect the honesty and without such rude tone as the first little UA-camr.
Inverted V12 Powerhouse They actually kinda did it’s all in how you use the thing. I knew some good players lol. Since everyone says you shouldn’t dogfight than the new flight model changes nothing to the success of the k4. And to be honest the flight model changes aren’t the only reason for the k4’s current success things like rolls Royce nerf with overheat was a big one imo. And other nerds to the spitfire and Mustang because it felt worse than before to be real with you however it isn’t unplayable. Then on top of that allied teams got dumber ever since most recently because at the start of the k4 big change allies teams were still kinda good (some hit or miss). But afterwards they started not climbing again and getting they ass kicked yet again like they did before the “massive” k4 buff.
The p51 dived instead of climbing when you were to gain the high ground as you did it probably wouldn’t have been the same outcome the p51 was a great plane and so was the k4 it just depends on the pilot yes a few things may vary but yeee
Well skill of the pilot really determines it all, I know a guy who absolutely rocks every plane, and a guy who couldn't get a kill with the T-2 flying straight and level after a B-57 (True story) this guy obviously had no clue on how to use the mustang, or he would have taken to climbing instantly and he also should have side climbed and tried to attack from above or the side
If you mean in duels with same airplanes, then yes mostly practice. It comes down perfecting every minuscule thing in order to get a tighter turn and get guns on target, things like speed management, throttle control, flaps and rudder etc. Everything I'm saying is in the context of the game of course, I cannot comment on real life air dogfights.
The fights usually lands up in the deck in which d30 usually has the advantage rather than k4. If brought to decent altitude, I agree that the k4 can keep up on its own against a d30, with the exception that the k4 actually rolls quite terribly at low speeds and the fights that adam and his partner usually has all been just stall fighting, nothing about energy fighting (now that I can tell the difference, I notice that his duel vids demo are mostly close range shooting and engagement). When it's about energy advantage, it really comes down to how the plane is handled to maximize the energy by utilizing the planes strengths. The k4 whenenever it dives, it's really a goner because about every allied planes gains more energy when diving and will eventually land with better performance at low alts. I'd be interested if you upload the other duels with different planes that you tested with him. Disproving Adam's point might hurt his morale or motivation to upload vids, but I hope that you both can learn from each other as well as others can learn from you.
No, the fights don't usually end up in the deck.. It's one of the reasons the germans have 80% win rate at 5.3 B.R. The plane that has the altitude advantage can force the opponent to dive to the deck. After that no sane pilot will continue to chase, bleed energy and then turn with the enemy but rather use the superior retention to regain altitude and then bnz them to death. As for other planes, Adam didn't show any interest in doing any further testing. I think the fact that his precious mustang proved helpless really beat him down. I however did invite any viewer to suggest a plane to go up against the K4 and to jump into a custom to test it. So far only one guy suggested a bunch and we tested. Premium Yak(VK-107) outperformed it massively and that's what I wrote in the pinned comment.
You did not turned around, this was about duel, not just going straight and keeping your energy, Adam could have kept on going straight, but he tought you were going to join the duel too, not just kepp going straight
He wanted to prove his point about how the K4 is superior to the D30 and he is true dueling is not just "turnfighting" but it dedicates each pilot to get the advantage over the other in dogfighting
I don't deny those facts about k4 against d30, I'm just telling you that planes don't matter if pilot is good. I think on 1v1 d30 has no chance to survive against k4 if pilots are equally skilled, maybe he can try to lure you down to sea level alt but you can reject that and always stay up high and fight would last more than 30mins which is incredibly boring since this is a game. (if my english is bad please forgive me)
"I think on 1v1 D30 has no chance to survive against K4 if pilots are equally skilled". In my book that makes one plane better than the other. If hypothetically the pilots are equally skilled the better plane wins.
After intensive dueling with a guy from the comments we've come to the following results. Keep in mind the guy is insane with multiple tournament wins under his belt and far ahead of me skill wise. i.imgur.com/MTxVaag.jpg
We tested the 6.0 bearcat, it was inferior and couldn't consistently win.
We tested the Yak-3 (VK-107), it managed to follow the K4 in the climb and even catch up at 7K altitude. Nothing I could've done against it, clear winner. He even joked about P2W but it is what it is and it outperforms the K4.
Last plane tested was the Corsair 4B. This was a tricky one, I always managed to gain an advantage and get in to a boom 'n' zoom fight. However I only managed to win 1 out of a dozen duels. Being killed in reversals where the corsair could hang in the air for long enough after I overshoot to kill me. Although he was insane at evading and shot like a god killing me from 1.4km multiple times. So if you're insanely good like this guy way, the corsair can win.
If anyone else has a suggestion and would like to try it out feel free to message me and we can try it out.
From the link (which I assume is this other pilots stats) he isn't doing as good as you are in a K4. Did you guys switch planes around or was it you in the K4 and him in those planes you listed?
Not trying to throw shade at him (whoever he is) but it'd be more objective if you switched planes.
Stats don't always tell everything, the guy's undoubtedly better than me. Unfortunately no we didn't switch the planes but I'm certain I couldn't replicate what he did in the corsair for example.
I am muted in game btw. My discord is VeromTV #2372
stats do always tell everything, the question is whether you understand what they say
the plane doesn't win, pilots win
the plane can't win for you unless you fly it in some kind of auto-pilot combat mode and even then it's only as good as the software makes it
All these so called "advantages", energy-retention all that bullshit, are only as useful as the pilot can make use of them. If you're a suck-ass pilot you're going to lose, no matter what you and the enemy are flying. The only questions that matter are what kinds of pilot-plane combinations can you beat. In the game. Since you're never going to be a combat pilot in real life.
So that resolves to a dichotomy.
Can you outfly a competing plane-pilot combination even with full knowledge of their "strengths and weaknesses" vs you and your plane?
This resolves to 2 questions. Can you win when you have an advantage, and not lose when you have a disadvantage? Maybe you never win but that's better than losing even once. Situational advantages and lack of awareness are going to give you some victories no matter the relative strengths and weaknesses. They're going to cost you some losses, as well. But now you're talking about strategic strengths not tactical strengths. "Boom and zoom" almost by definition means that you're pouncing on unsuspecting dogfighters at lower altitudes and airspeeds but not all dogfighters are unspecting and can induce overshoots and make kills that way. Poor pilots turn strategic advantages into losses, but the winning pilot still needs to be good enough to make the kill. Just as the losing pilot has to be willing to fly into combat and unable to escape without getting shot down. So flying planes "head to head" 1 on 1 doesn't really say a whole lot more than one pilot is better than the other, because the real question is how do the two planes compete against the general population of planes in general combat when flown with a wide variety of techniques in a variety of situations. Then and only then can strong trends be identified and isolated. What this guy is doing here is the classic mistake of trying to generalize from a single example. Two guys flying head to head repeatedly say more about the pilots than the planes they're flying. Yeah sure maybe one plane is slower, has a lower climb-rate, can't turn as well in sustained turns due to various factors, yes, even considering the fact that it's a game and not RL, but in real-world combat, even in a game, pilots will avoid relying on weaknesses and try to exploit strengths, and it's really hard to tell what strengths and weaknesses matter or how to relate them together successfully unless you're flying "real world combat". Flying against more than one pilot, more than one plane, in more than one scenario. The strength of statistical data is in large sample-sets. Not small, narrowly-focused ones. Correlation vs causation. For example, maybe one plane has a 20mph lower top speed than another. But does it matter in real-world combat? Not if...the two planes are likely to meet another plane during the chase. Not if the faster plane will run out of fuel during the chase...
Real combat is not nearly as simple as which plane "outperforms" the other. Would you bet another pilot that you have a faster plane if you know their plane is faster than yours? No. Strategy and tactics play to strengths against weaknesses, magnifying strengths and minimizing weaknesses. But combat is always between two planes and therefore it is a matter of the chess-match between two pilots or two opposing forces. Not just between performance-data. If combat results were directly predictable from performance-data then why would anyone be bothered to actually play the game?
I feel like people in war thunder are losing their grasps on what air combat actually is. It's not a case of who turns better, it's not a case of "he who runs loses", and it's not a case of being in a fair match.
Air combat is all about dictating the fight. The plane that's able to dictate the fight wins. With the D-30 against the K-4, the K-4 is the one able to dictate the fight. Once locked in combat, the D-30 has no options. If the K-4 wants to run away, it will. If the D-30 wants to run away, it can't. It's all in the K-4's hands. The K-4 is the plane that's able to decide when and when not to attack, when to run, and when to fight. The D-30 doesn't get these options. So yeah, at low altitude it may perform better, it may have over performing guns, it may turn better. But all that's useless if the D-30 simply isn't allowed to use these advantages.
My point exactly, I couldn't have worded it better myself.
Byralie yeah but duels are supposed to be fun right? Not flying away for 3 min and then coming back
Duels are also supposed to be played in same planes, it's like asking me to turn fight a zero in a mustang... This way each one has to play to their advantage, but climb and speed are what wins a fight, not turning ability. That's why planes evolved to go fast instead of turning tightly.
Sometimes amerimutt players will run and fly close to their airfield at low altitude so the AA takes you down and you can't chase them
@ImSnowzy That's really subjective. I have a fun time in the game when I blow planes up. If I'm dog fighting a spitfire in a 109, that's not going to happen. I assume this video is in RB and it's for people who play RB. Many people who play RB are people who want this level of realism, fighting for the advantage, then attacking your target. Not everyone enjoys this long and seemingly boring form of play, but personally it's the reason I play. I enjoy that realistic level of fighting. The same thing would happen in real life, if it meant you (as a pilot) wouldn't die, you'd probably run away first too.
These duels were supposed to show what happens in realistic battles. They weren't for fun, however, that doesn't mean people don't do duels just for fun :P
This is basically a werhaboo vs an amerboo
Edit: what have I done
And the werhaboo emerged victorious!! Unlike in world war 2...
Big oof for wehraboos in the real world ; - ;
Wango How to combat “but guess who won the war” kids, just say who had better stuff and was able to fight to death as well as knowing for a damn fact the allies could never pull off what Germany did.
Commander Austin And? They are easy to kill, all you have to do is shoot a good tab and there dead, if you have a Tier III 109 to say the least.
*burger
Spitfire keeps crying in the corner*
Realistically the p51 should be faster because of the super charger and war thunder dosent let the super charger use its full potential
@@jakobczarnecki5131 Spitfires have a supercharger too. The mustang should be faster yes, but the Spitfires energy retention in this game is appalling, it's acceleration isn't great, the engine overheats like mad, and it's guns don't work.
@@ArchangelsSword yea i know its just sad that war thunder cant figure out how and i feel like the guy he was fighting was dumb and the p51 can dive faster than the 109
@@ArchangelsSword gayjin fucked the British tree into the dirt, it's honestly a Forsaken plane that could back when it was good, turn fight zeros but now it can't turn bf 109s. Tl;dr gayjin fucked up again
Mk 24 is still a great plane.
Players: okay look here buddy, historically-...
Gaijin: Look that plane's too good so people aren't buying premiums from that nation. Nerf the gun performance and let's make some dough.
Yes they must do that that to the 109s
Imagine being such a OP plane that gaijin had to nerf you so that they can buy other premiums planes lol
Actually, the Wright Brother's plane is the best.
Santos Dumont: Let me introduce you my _Demoiselle._
i couldnt agree more
The best in falling off the sky yes
Slap a browning on that bad boi and you've won a war.
No it’s either to b-29 or the zero
The He51 can out climb, out run, out turn, and out gun everything in game lol.
Swordfish is better. Fact.
@@rsdc2695 You are right. Gaijin should nerf that ufo!
Sauce Boss#1 swordfish 2 vs po2
@@pedrosabino8751 11
It can't outclimb anything, nor outrun, neither outgun, but the turning is very good.
Thing is: the Swordfish is a plane designed to drop torpedos (pretty much.) The Po-2 (2-OP xd) was primarily an instructor aircraft, but could deliver mail or bombs. Neither of the latter were designed for fighting enemy aircraft.
*P-51H stares through the window*
P-51H: "IT'S FREE REAL ESTATE!"
OP 51H GODSTANG
What's its BR again?
@@alfredware
6.3, but goodness is it a monster.
@@lemonzest8650 I love dogfighting those things, especially in ta 152 h1, [definitely] always fun
@@lemonzest8650 now k4 is also 6.3. Gg
Both easily expendable for the Fury mk1
MyUnoriginalUsername 🤔...Fury......😳......😂🤣😂🤣😂🤣😂🤣😂🤣😂🤣😂🤣😂🤣😂🤣😂🤣😂🤣😂😆😄😃🙂🤨yeah right.....wanna go 1 🆚 1( you and me)? Tell you what ..you in a “FURY” and I...not a K4 but lower 🤔 ..BF-109 G10, what do you say ?
@@gomezgomez6299 u wot
@@catcanard8585 yes...sometimes I borrow my BIG BROTHERS account
@@gomezgomez6299 okay?
CatCanard yeah ! Where do you live ?
At the end of the day, I think it really doesn't come down to statistically which plane is better, but rather the pilot and the conditions that they operate under.
Nah, it's the plane
@@NameisU During the Korean War, a PO-2, A BIPLANE managed to down a Lockheed F-94 Starfire. Dude, its the pilot.
@@nikolaihill7364 One thing is having a plane better then the other then maybe outskill it and other thing is being an idiot and crashing your jet to the ground to a bi plane
You can see adam keeps trying to initiate a dogfight
@@nikolaihill7364 The F-94 stalled lol, but I guess that reinforces your "it's ze pilot" rhetoric shit
I remember thinking "how are German planes so good wtfffff ewwww op" then I tried German planes and holy shit if you want to master the game just play them. It's a whole new way of playing compared to other nations
A bit late, but the german planes aren't more difficult to play but require a different style. Because of this, I tend to get destroyed in all other trees, because i'm used to energy fighting.
honestly i gotta agrree, but i play only german palnes, it took a while to get good at the K-4 like a WHIIILE
@@Slender1870 you can mostly get away with it while playing the Americans since it’s basically the same tech tree aside from turn rates going from slow to retarded and borderline op at high speeds
Also pilot snipes with latewar brownings
It just happens every single time
Try britan with an experianced pilot its even better than germany
I am a german main from a soviet main, Got to 5.7 soviet on both tanks and planes and when I switched to germany I was absolute shit because soviets were pretty much point and click, Now I am toptier german planes and tanks with a average of 3.0-4.0 KD in pretty much any german vehicle, Yet I still constantly hear "Germant suffers"
Yea germany suffers... From shit players.
I’ve always loved the K4 and 109’s in general
I only play Germany now. I was disappointed by the other planes in other countries.
Same here
And then, like a shooter, the P-51 H kicks down the door, and proceeds took cut down every other prop and jet at it's teir.
It is the best prop in the game I won't argue against it.
And yet the spitfire mk 24 is a higher BR... either push the p51H up to 6.7 or reduce the spit mk24 to 6.3
Mikeyh984 24 at 6.3 is a big no no. 51H to 6.7 would be more sensible.
i was just saying, if the p51H is better than the spit mk24 and it's at 6.3 so it would be logical the have the spit mk24 at the same br as the p51H... anyway wasn't the p51H 6.7 when it was added?
EDIT: i'm just curious but why can' the spit mk24 not be at 6.3?
Mikeyh984 well when the super mustang came out the spit mk 24 got curb stomped hard.
Adam was talking about a dogfight without running. I don’t think it’s fair to only focus on one planes advantages. Same deal with Adam, he was basically only focusing on maneuvering fights which the mustang will always win. It really just depends on the player and how he exploits his planes advantages and disadvantages.
so go on duel and show that
The only problem is that the K4 is also better than a D30 in turnfight ...
Even if the P51 under ideal circumstances can win in a duel against a K4, it’s performance for teams are vastly inferior. I played the D30 and the D5 extensively to get the H and the F82.
109 pilots often can out-climb me, taking away my best and almost always only way of attacking another air craft by Boom and Zooming.
In a duel I can’t even dream of turn-fighting.
109 energy retention is so much better, I’ve been shot down even after pulling out of my attack attempts from above.
Even if I managed to run away at low level flight, the battle is lost because I’m allowing him to dictate his altitude and returning to the battle is suicide.
Unless this is real life and I have the Atlantic Ocean as a climbing zone, there’s not a thing I can do when I hear those cannons whiz from above.
i think the best thing to do is message messer and fight him in a bf 109 and also in a d30, far as i saw, everytime adam flew against you he dove down and ran away though. ask adam for a proper fight , somedays i seen him be lazy like this and other days he flat out fights hard. also nice merging! i love merging and keeping my energy
The ball is in his court. If he wants to rematch or disprove this he can message me, not the other way around.
Make duel please
Dudes just a tool that mostly flies OP or easy to fly planes. He's a wind bag that mostly plays clan battles.
Fury you'll have to admit that your mate adam just flies like a potatoe in this vid. Lazyness is not an excuse.
Your assuming that a turn fight is a proper fight? No its not dont be the fking 90% of war thunder noobs
I agree COMPLETELY, but the D30 wasn't a WWII era aircraft, it was in fact a product of the korean war where the US wanted to convert old fighters into fast ground attackers. They made it so it could withstand more hits from ground fire (slightly) and tried to improve low alt performance.
As far as I know the D-30 did enter combat over Europe and was meant to have better performance down low so that it could catch jets more easily.
The Stall speed on 109 is very good compared to other planes, simply because of the slats in the wings. That's why earlier 109s like the E and F were actually out turning Spitfires in the hands of good pilots.
Looks like all of the aerodynamic engineers have transfered to this game
Which is crazy because the game's physics engine is atrocious.
I do play this game but i am stuck with the p-51 (20mm) and the p-40 but still i love this game
@@keithalexander7953 The game's physics engine is quite realistic actually, are you sure?
@@silience4095 if it was(which it isnt) planes like the Spitfire and P51 would be better then they are now
@@darrengarcia4937 P-51 is great though.
I think I get the discrepancy here. He was thinking in terms of dogfights, in which case the P-51 has an advantage, you are thinking in terms of energy fights and using the 109 to it's full potential, and instead of testing strictly dogfights, using energy to avoid maneuver fights all together until you got the best position. I bet this is also why he kept turning in on you so early, because he expected a dogfight. If a 51 can force/trick a 109 into a maneuvering fight, it is most likely superior, but as you showed, the 109 does have several options against them.
bh5496 The problem is that even though Byralie kept saying to Adam that the BF has an advantage in outright battles, Adam keeps reverting "yeah but in a dogfight I can win". Yes, in a dogfight of course the D30 will win. But reality is in most situations, energy > dogfight. It would not have been so much of a source of argument if Adam only admitted that the D30 will lose if it was taken out of its comfort zone, which, against a K4, will be most of the time
bh5496 LoL !! It's a dogfight too. But the tactics are different. If you consider turn fight then the Japanese Zeros are best among all the aircrafts of WW2. Americans used same tactics as they didn't turn against Zeros in dogfights.
+Dipon Ahmed Let’s not be pedantic. Dogfight in this context is of course referring to a close quarters maneuvering fight. Also seems a bit moot to bring up the Zero since no one was talking about the ‘best’ maneuver fighter.
@@epitosu6461 But Adam's video was explicitly about BF109 vs P51D30 in a dogfight, he never took the conversation out of that perspective, other people did.
Harr darr The title of Adams video was “What can Germany do?” The answer is not dogfight, which you can do by just playing energy. Which you will win 9/10 times vs a D30
Meanwhile tanks player be like : "if we can penetrate the armor then we win"
Maus: Amateurs
Maus: *pain*
Armor doesn’t matter if you’re facing cold war tanks with apds, apfsds, heatfs, and atgms.
From what i've gathered from your screenshot. The K4 and the 51 are trash compared to the p-63C 5.
and yet both kills me with ease, feels sad.
When the video was made P-51D's had 1.46 CL max which made them turn too well. It's more or less fixed now
There was only one thing conclusively unquestionably better about the P-51: Its wings were full of better fuel allowing for more supercharging. 130 or 150 octane versus 87 or 100 octane. That was the decisive difference. Why this is constantly dismissed or ignored I have no idea. I wonder whether that is being accurately simulated.
I see both sides of the argument.
It is of course an incredible advantage when you can break from the fight and reengage when you have an advantage. This can definitely be used to destroy the enemy and archieve victory.
That's something that Germans used to great effect. The great roll rate of the FW190s could be used do break off a fight with a Spitfire because it couldn't follow in a dive.
Even the Dora version because of the much sturdier wings that the Spit.
They could disengage at will and attack later with the advantage.
Same for the TA152, even if mostly hypothetically. Although in this case they could just use their great speed to disengage.
Most of the kills were historically made without the enemy knowing you are there and lots of the highly successful pilots would mostly attack when they have the definite advantage.
So there obviously is a point.
But sometimes you cannot chose. When the fight between the K4 and the P51 has started, the the fight is on. In this dogfight, the P51 will easily best the K4. That is what Adam argued for.
You guys are just viewing it with different viewpoints.
In the end, I personally agree more with Adam on this one.
there is a reason why the k4 sits at a higher br than the d30... the K4 outperforms the d30 quite good, if you play the K4 at maximum to its strength then a duel will always be won by the k4... the only thing the d30 is doing better is speed on the deck and diving as well as high speed manuverbillity... Adam will always loose in a D30 when the k4 is flying to its maximum potential, no matter what adam does, he can outdive the k4 to the deck and then give it a run, but running on the deck is like loosing, k4 will not dive with him, keep altitude and either wait for the p51 to go outside the capturig area, or the p51 has to turn to stay inside the area, and that will make it slow, the k4 can then boom and zoom the hack out of it... there is a reason for the br, the difference is not extremly big but its noticable, when the k4 is flown to maximum and the p51 is flown to maximum, k4 will almost win every 1 v 1 duel in this scenario... and the k4 can disengage at altitude whenever it wants, its faster and its power to weight ratio is better whitch results in energy atvantage for the k4 player... we can discuss about earlier 109 versions, the g6 for example will not be able to outspeed the d30 at altitude, but the k4 does, it can catch up to the d30 and disengage whenever it wants to + getting the energy advatage over time, thats why there is a br difference and the k4 will win.
what this video at least shows, that the claim adam will easily beat him in the d30 is wrong, and debunked... adam really flew bad... try to rung and catch after turning and stuff... but the k4 was flown always straight to get the advantage, it outperformed by straight flying, adam could not catch up and could not run, there are reasons for that, and poor piloting and flat turning is one reason for that, performance difference is the other reason for that, the br difference is reasonable.
Simon56 Definitely agreed. In a way it almost seems like the two were arguing for different points overall... Not to mention how it turned into a dick measuring contest to see who's "better" rather than proving points. There's a huge difference in the civility and integrity of an argument between "I won" and "I'm toying with you", and "This plane won, with me as a pilot very familiar in its usage" and "This plane lost, but I think it depends on the situation and rulesets".
There's nothing i can say since i haven't tried the K4 yet but you have to also consider that in WW2 there isn't a third person camera and HUD. The enemy pilot or you won't always watch your back when you are focusing on a single fighter. You will only realize that there is enemy on you only if you saw the bullets or hearing it.
Boomkoko220 thats why we dont talk abot war, we talk about competetive war thunder
@@flachzangelp1102 But this wasn't what Adam was trying to argue for. He was arguing the case of a straight dogfight rather than flying straight to drain your opponents energy. Yes the K4 will best a D30 if flown to its strengths everytime; however, the argument here is when the K4 is outside its comfort zone. When that is the case, the K4 will lose as D30 holds the advantage in flaps and low speed turning (in other words a turnfight where both opponents have the same energy).
Test it with the D30 yourself, then give him the K4. You're only proving you are the better pilot.
I have a tendency not to advocate a point I'm not positive is true. That's why I played a couple dozen duels against a better pilot than myself in which we swapped around planes. If the K4 is played the same way it is in the video the guy in the Mustang is really hopeless no matter the skill.
Byralie youre trying to convince us of something. Not yourself. Switch the planes.
At the end of the day it's about playing your aircraft to it's strengths.
At the end of the day, the video posted is trying to debunk strengths. The experiment is flawed and concludes inaccurately. OP knows this.
TheBanicks true point. They are forgetting that p51 can out turn 109 at high speed
both of you guys have different points of view on what part makes the plane good. obviously in normal matches both these work against randos. but in a duel, a player who plays its cards right in the k4 will win i guess
I really like Adam's channel but this time he was being a little kid. You clearly showed a massive advantage gap between 2 planes and Kurfurst is just superior to D30 in almost every way. ''no it's boring'' was his answer when you suggested he can run and that's the moment which sums this all up. He just made a bold claim and when you called him out on that he just acted like a child. He could've easily said fair point because it honestly was.
Guess I'mma have to subscribe to you for keeping me from giving up on Germany, thanks
K4 has inferior speed retention because of its thicker wings. The p-51 can maneuver tighter at speed. Also because of its laminar flow wings a fully upgraded d-30 is better in both regards what isn’t considered is the climb rate. Which in real life was irrelevant. Is very important in warthunder and german planes climb like weather baloons
Sir Illuminar The Valient not in SIM, I eat K4’s for breakfast in sim, most of the time I kill them without them seeing me cause blind spots are a thing! 😝
It doesn’t matter what plane you unless it’s a really bad plane a good pilot will come on top most of the time
I saw a guy (Toastman) SEAL-CLUBBING in the Blackburn Firebrand in sim battles, K/D must've been like 4
"d30 is 15kmh faster"
Good to see he can at least read the info panel😂
He literally tested it out
Yeah he tests everything, speed, climb MER, etc. The stat card is unreliable, don't use it like at all.
@@silience4095 Doesnt the stat card lie about pretty much everything?
@@Serkay64 Yes, precisely.
Arguing about accuracy and specs when playing War Thunder - oh the irony.
it still does have abit of realism and bf 109's do have better acceleration than the p 51 so im conclusion of the bf 109 is higher than you it wins
"superior climb rate"
*Griffon Spitfire would like to know your location*
the only griffon that climbs better its 7 years newer.
Whomever is better at air combat maneuvering will be the winner. Proven in real life with inferior aircraft operating against superior aircraft. An experienced pilot who knows what his plane can do will "out perform" a rookie with the latest and greatest.
Are you dumb
Exausity 7 not really no
No the guy that puts the most time in custom battles dueling is the guy that will win. These guys are trash at dueling, and have no idea what they are doing. If you wanna see real dueling, check out Zelator war thunder
Its been proven that the better plane is better even if it has a bad pilot,
Turn fighting is seen as an inferior way of fighting in air to air combat, most people who just entered air to air combat will do the "turn fight". You'll be surprised how many turn fighters killed by energy fighters, it's a lot.
It'd have been nice to see you go in the D30 and him in the K4 to see if the advantage stays regardless of skill level
The main factor of an aircombat, is the pilot
Unless it's a spitfire lol
@@cc-so9hj spitfires are not op... not anymore...
How would you think about giving the K4 the modification C3 Fuel? Since the muricans and the british get the 150 Octane
All i saw in the comment log was you "i won i won" and adam trying to be polite... the duel was meant to show the dog fighting abilities of the planes no? Not a piss contest...
I didn’t see any of that lol. He even says that the K4 wins every time when played to it’s advantages.
You're a straight G mate, not only did it take some serious balls to call out a more skilled player on some BS, but you took it the next level and actually put your money where your mouth is. Well done and hats off to you.
Its not that the K4 is bad...Its the people flying the K4 who aren’t experienced,But someone like you who knows how to, can always pull it off
Idk wich is better, but ur aim is pretty damn good
Wtf he is doing?! These videos proves only that you are a better pilot than him, nothing on plane vs plane.
The point is quite the contrary, even against a better pilot if played to it's strengths the K4 should have no trouble beating the D30.
Byralie I hope youve remembered that the K is currently running on an almost star wars level unrealistic flight model. If accurate it would not be able to hold a dive with any mustang after the D-5 without locking up and lawndarting well before its counterpart. Not to mention the horizontal e-retention is lacking as well but otherwise, it is a great aircraft.
With no doubt K4 is a better plane now after 1.79 but i think D30 was a lot better before! Adam is a good guy but we can see he´s very stubborn! Nice video mate!
Until said pilot pulls their head out of their ass and turns on MEC...
Robert War Thunder isn't a flight simulator and if you have actual evidence to back your claims I'd like to see it.
I've found the reason that gaijin increase K4's br. to 5.7
This guy has no idea...
Russian bias.
Even historically the K-4 is recognized as a variant that out performed Mustang D models. In the war the battles were one sighted thanks to tactical disadvantages more so than mechanical ones
The Mustangs flew with higher octane fuel. Does the game reflect this?
It does, but only on the later P-51s as an upgrade. The early P-51s IIRC don't get 150 octane fuel, though it's been a while since I've flown them so it could have changed
That's a stupid question how would the game reflect that? If the P51 gets its fuel tank shot up by incendiaries it just explodes prettier? The k4 had a more powerful engine so even though it was using lower octane fuel it had something near 300 more horsepower.
The game does reflect it by giving a significant boost to overall horsepower of the P-51s when they use 150 octane fuel... not like it matters though because as you said the Bf-109K has a more powerful engine just as standard
well in fairness the 150 ocatne mustang had more manidold power despite the engine being smaller, which made it more powerful at max throttle than a 109, though the 109 engine was closer to fucking magic than engineering with how it kept up for so long.
it was more powerful than earlier bf109s, but not the k4s engine, specifically the DC running, slightly better but still shitty, c3 fuel was putting out 1972 horsepower at full throttle. p51d30 put out 1590 full throttle. If we're talking about the H series p51's then yea its a better engine than the K4's, but thats not what the video was about. I was comparing the D30 to the K4.
Awww this game is like kindergarten before il-2
ua-cam.com/users/deephun99
I do think that 190 flies better in WT than IL2 and DCS combined. (Even a german ace, who played DCS, complained about the lacking flightmodel of the D9 :D)
2:41 he did a u turn whilst you kept on flying and not engaging him. its not about the planes its the pilots you should put ai vs ai instead of pilots
Uh, no, because AI wouldn't use either aircraft's advantages.
Lmao ai vs ai is just turn fighting
awesome vid, why do u got with the 300m target distance out of interest
K4 ain't that special, 109s aren't bad planes but but by the time you get into 4.7-5.7 109s their performance does get a hit in the neck not the plane itself but the fact that allied planes start to climb better and also be much fater like the P51D being able to hold up to 840 km/h in a dive before breaking apart, also lets not forget about the buff they received by making them less sluggish and giving them more power when it comes to WEP, at 4.7-5.7 the allied teams could easily beat the german teams if they would bother to climb and to actually hold that alt if they do instead of diving after 1 guy in a group of 3-4 players or if they wouldn't just hunt bombers and let the rest of their team die :P
You're factually wrong, the only plane that climbs better than late 109's is the LF9 spit. Also did you even watch the video? D30 is slower than the K4 up at altitude. The performance of late 109's and Doras is unmatched by anything the allies have up until 6.3.
i would say the d9 and g14 are much better than the k4 when versing allies tho, the k4's horrible turn under 350km/h really grinds my gears, its so anoying to be a fucking brick when you have just that slight advantage in energy that in for example a g14, you could just cash into a turn and kill.
It's true the G14 is more maneuverable but the D9 is not, in fact no 190 turns better at any speed that any 109, I'll still take the K4 just for it's insane rate of climb compared to the other two but the G10 and 14 are close seconds imo.
dude i get you like the k4, but the d9 is definitly better turning. sure the k4 retains more energy, but when it gets to mid-slow speed its turning radious becomes atrocious with any flaps.
omn the other hand the d9 can use flaps and that speed to keep up with the enemies at the cost of energy
Allrighty then, I'm not the one to spew unchecked things. If you'd like to come duel me, the D9 vs the K4 and if you manage to outturn me I'll stand corrected.
Could you please put that BF109K4 skin from the Thumbnail in the Description?
I Can't find it on WT live for the life of me now..
@@Benjo0 Ok, thanks anyway
1 but: IAS does not tell much due to different temperature/humidity
it's the same between planes between similar altitudes, and thus is still valid. I don't think War Thunder even models humidity, maybe temperature?
IAS tells the speed of the plane at a certain alt.
So, if the K4 had decided to go into the turnfight, what the P-51 wants to do is to outmaneuver at high speeds, right?And if things start to get slower, P-51 should disengage and restart the encounter, due to the better turn rate at low speeds of the bf 109? I´m asking mostly because most K4s in game will try to outmaneuver you, and I´m not very good at turnfights.
I find it interesting that much of what you say is true, but irrelevant! The 109's advantages are not speed and climb because this game is not realistic. It's just a game with the performance parameters adjusted to please the customers? No RECIP plane can run at WOT for more than 5 minutes back then! NONE! Real speed in real planes in a real war is how fast will it go at METO, or Maximum Except Take Off, or Maximum Continuous throttle! Under those conditions the P-51, depending on the model is 40-70 MPH faster than the Me-109!Then there is the altitude advantage. The P-51 can cruise at >40,000' an altitude the 109 can only reach at full throttle. So before the fight starts his engine is about to explode and he must throttle back while the P-51 has thousands of feet of altitude advantage to start, a lower wing loading, a 70 MPH speed advantage and enough gas on board to fly back to England after 20 minutes at METO Combat while the 109 is almost out of gas. Pilot skill makes or breaks all!But back to the opening remark. The Me-109's strengths are a Motorkanone mounted on the CL, LE Slats that allow a higher AoA, smaller size which makes it harder to see, NONE of which matter in this game because it is not modeled realistically!In addition, the faster you go in a 109, the worse the Instantaneous Rate of Roll and Sustained Rate of Roll get while the P-51's roll performance also degrades with speed, the rate of decline is very much slower with increasing speed, at least in real life planes.The other part of this is that your "Dog Fights" were very un realistic in their tactics and executions. If I was in an aircraft with advantages and disadvantages that were drastically mismatched with my opponent, Why on Earth would I fight my worst attributes Vs his best? Why wouldn't I use my best bits against his worst? Why would I enter into a fight at such low altitude where his Hydraulically driven blower gives him an edge, instead of starting up high where my two stage/two speed blower gives it all to me? Where my lower wing loading gives me a tighter turn radius at a slightly higher speed, the so called "Corner Velocity" where there is nothing he can do to escape? (Except get lucky if I run out of ammunition?) If on the other hand, if the 109 starts advantaged, how about feeding him a nice "Rolling Scissors" until he slides out in front of my wonderful .50s?Just because your opponent was a turkey and the game is biased and unrealistic, do not think the result proved anything!
Stewart Davies
Don’t blame “this game is bias and unrealistic” as your excuse. Just admit the K is better. How is that relate to the subject? You can’t bring real world problems to a FUCKING GAME. If you do, you automatically lose the argument. You lost credibility
ua-cam.com/video/1PA70pN6zPM/v-deo.html this is a long video but extremely informative specifically about the different engine specs of the me 109 k and late g models. my biggest take-away from this video is that there were way too many different specifications of me 109 flying at the end of the war the generalize that any given p51 is 40-70 mph faster, it's just not true. since in war thunder all the planes are upgraded to their theoretical maximum it's totally realistic that his "idealized" me 109k is faster at altitude that the p51. how many actual aircraft in that specification were fielded during the war is irrelevant.
I take it you are a butthurt american? Where in the video did he ever state "The 109k was better than the P51 in ww2?" Original video was about a game, this video was about a game.
Dr. No you still gotta admit this match didn’t really prove anything. A corps would have flown the mustang better than this guy did. America is the best 🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸
They're comparable in the video game. Success for either depends on the pilot as in real life. If you crunch the real numbers the American fighter is the better performer all the way around. Still many were killed by german fighters. It's mostly opportunity meets pilot skill.
Hi, I am a K-4 pilot myself and got 1680 kills in it while having 242 deaths. It is a amazing plane. The D-30 is a dangerous opponent only if it ganks you with support from other enemy fighters, but 1v1 I agree with you and confirm, that the K-4 is superior. Even at low speeds with flaps enable you can keep up with the D-30 and stay on its 6 long enough to shoot it down any day of the week and twice on sunday.
The stall advantages are only seen in SIM MODE, play sim and you’ll be spinning like a top in that K4, I swear it. 109’s love flat spins. 😉
Iz Khalifa I mean they’re also not the worst to recover either
D30 to in SIM ;)
That’s why you turn the engine off. Removes all torque
Ben Cristofani I was playing against mouse aimers a few days ago and I was using full real controls with stick and throttle, I was able to kill the K4 in a reverse BnZ into rolling scissors at high speed. Seems to work great cause the 109 seems to lose maneuverability at high speed whereas the p51 just becomes more maneuverable.
Ben Cristofani at first the 109 tried to out climb me which worked in his favor because he had greater climb rate and more maneuverability at slower speeds, he ended up on my six, I extended, amd we were pretty even, he had advantage since he had guns on me, I was able to increase the gap to about 2km where I inverted into a split S, but pulled all the way through into a merge vertically to rope a dope him, which worked perfectly because he followed me in the split S, and he lacked the maneuverability to counter rolling scissors at that speed, which was pretty awesome to see, I noticed at normal corner speed, the P51 actually has a tighter turn circle than the K4 in a horizontal turn. I believe this is due to having higher horse power and more wing surface area.
I dont really think bf109 and mustang were built with the same fighting scenario in mind.
Lui_Boulevard well, they were both designed as air pursuit type fighters in their original forms. As their designs progressed the K-4 *was* optimized for interception while the D-30 for escort and air to air
@@air-headedaviator1805
*LONG*
From what im reading up, BF 109s were made to combat spitfires. The production requirements included, but weren't limited to: high speed flight, short range interception, and the ability to reach ~6,000m within 17 minutes.
The Mustang's primary directive was visibility, high altitude (10,000m) performance with a two stage supercharger for consistent speed at said altitude, ("fast" climb not stated, possibly a side effect?) and range. In war thunder, people rarely fight at 10,000m. I speculate that we don't experience the P-51's true altitude potential because we aren't high enough, while we fight at 6,000m in almost every prop battle; the perfect *intended* altitude for the BF 109.
I believe the weight of both aircraft play a significant part in their high altitude performance. The BF 109's light weight provided unintended quality performance at high altitude, while the P-51's weight was a result of additional fuel tanks in the fuselage to "reel the CoM back", due to the engine's weight alone, this allowed extended range and flight duration, but sub-par performance at certain altitudes, where its performance would out do other aircraft simply because the others' were exponentially losing flight quality overall once they exceeded their intended altitude, and reached closer to their ceiling.
The p 51 was made for long range to escort bombers. So the real advantage it had historically was it came into battle pre climbed and it had plenty of friendly planes to use as bait. Also probably a numbers advantage too. Honestly US air is basically designed to fail in the warthunder formula as far as fighting Germany goes.
@@DARKgater WaR tHuNdEr HaTeS uS
Lui_Boulevard thats pretty true. Infact in almost any combat sim game the fight scenarios are always super low to the ground normally, and for the US’s premier frontline aircraft thats usually their least optimum fighting condition.
You completely missed Adam's point, he did his entire video in close quarters combat, and every single video of 'What can () do?' have been this way, you're only proving that YOU didn't understand his video.
oof
Actually his point was that the Mustang was "better than any other German prop” and he tried to prove it with the method where the Mustang could win. If it was so the he51 would be better
wow ! what a "gunnery" performance man !!! at 3:13 min. ! i loved how you shot toward the front of his flight - and the shells caught up with him ... : )) LONG LIVE THE 109
Got my K-4 a couple days ago, and even mostly stock it's pretty good, but it's so hard to spade. Even my G-6 didn't take nearly as long.
I blame the Ju288 spam.
Also loving that 79kmh difference on the deck is a “slight difference” but at altitude the mustang was only behind about 13kmh and that’s considered “significant” DONT know why no one has noticed that.
What can Germany possibly do? Maybe invent the Jet idk
Can I apply this boom and zoom with the FW-190
Well..I actually agreed and subscribed,the only reason for a P51D to wreck a 109 is just cause 109s are harder to fly than ALL of the american plane tech tree.
Harder to fly? Excuse me but thats just complete bullshit. The Bf 109 is the easiest plane to do well with in the entire game just because it has one of the best climbrates, energy retentions and accelerations. They can do whatever they want when they want. American planes need to sideclimb for 20 minutes, then stay above 5km and 400kph to actually do anything.
Man I don’t know. I’ve just gotten started and I have the 109 B-1 and E-1 and aside from maybe the He 100 D-1 they’re the easiest planes I have. Even though the B-1 has the same weapons as the German reserve biplanes the outstanding performance of the plane makes up for it. The low tier 109s are very fast and it’s very easy to keep the speed up and get an altitude advantage over virtually anything. On the American side I’m just getting into the P-40s and while the firepower is fantastic their high speed handling is very poor compared to the 109, particularly the F model which is virtually uncontrollable within 50 kph of its rated top speed. I still love the American planes because the .50 cals are a riot to use, but they don’t fly as nice as the 109s IMO.
@@michaelw6277 Allright!Keep playing and comment back here when you reach 5.0s - start facing griffon spitfires and P51s.
@@roadhigher Okay let's just stop this here,i'll let the japansese take in charge cause i think you've insulted them all!
Necroph0rus You said “all”, so I assumed you meant all, including the low tier planes. Obviously I don’t have an opinion on higher tier planes. Maybe you’re right, maybe you’re not, I can’t really know and I’ll adjust when I get there.
Remember kids: Just because you can't do it does not mean its bad or cannot be done. It just means you're shit.
Any one that has flown a realistic Flight sim game like Aces High knows the K can fly circles around a 51... it can engage and disengage at will and that's the name of the game.... Americans get caught up in the Hollywood propaganda of it all and the reason the 51's did well in that last year of the war was because of their overwhelming numbers.
@@ionisingcarbonx1010 Crack me up Gaijin... you have no idea what i mean.
@@ionisingcarbonx1010 I suggest to you try Ace's High a real lift sim and try some duel matches in your beloved 51... you'll get the point... Gaijin is arcade kiddie crap.
@@ionisingcarbonx1010 No you just don't know what you are talking about.. it's pretty obvious.
Wait I thought the P-51 performed better at high alts? Have I been lied to?
It's mostly what you're good with, i'm dogshit in a bf 109, but whenever i use the p-51 i get anywhere from 3-6 kills most games.
American planes are way easier to master although some of them have limited wep so i guess thats ome thing to master. While German Prop planes are really hard to master i get around i used to get 2-1 kills but recently i have flown it better i got quite a lot of kills around 3-5 now. Also Adam has matured quite a lot now. He has become way more tuned in how energy fighting works.
@@deusexmachina8112 that simply isn't true. Unless you are speaking for yourself American planes at just has hard to learn if not harder to learn to fly than the bf 109s.
@@deusexmachina8112 that's why American teams tend to be worse than German teams.
@@ushikiii American arplaines turn faster, have the potential to climb really high, superior altitude fighting, and are fucking fast. Tell me how do they lack behind? They are extremely easy to use with just extreme use of bnz. Germans generally do better bcz of teamwork. Its the complete opposite of ground battles where american tanks are worse but generally do better because german tankers are shit.
@@deusexmachina8112 They don't turn that much quicker, did you even see Adams fucking video. The Bf 109 can sustain energy better so if in the right hands you should be able to win a dog fight with a p51s. Having a 1 percent better turn rate is irrelevant. They climb quickly? Is that why in every engagement the bf 109s are on the top when it comes to altitude? Look at the climb rate buddy. In this case the bf is better at altitude. They are quicker? Tell me... did you not just watch the video? They aren't quicker in altitude. Just say you didn't and go watch it, I just want you to fuck off.
I don't know if this is what's supposed to happen but when I fly the k-4 right around 3000m - 4000m it loses A LOT of engine power and really slows my climb, plus I like to fight at that altitude. Is there a way to fix this? or will this happen no matter what?
The p51 has never been insanely better than a 109, it is about what a pilot is most comfortable in, i can beat p51s in a fw190 a8 or tempest but struggle against them in spitfires
What is the background music's name?
The F4u will decimate all if you fly it correctly.
Same for bf 109...spitfire....ta 152....yak3....the pilot is the most important thing
Now what’s next? Could we see the Bf-109 K14 in the future?
With a description like this.
forum.warthunder.com/index.php?/topic/93245-bf-109-k-14/
Running or disengagement the k4 is good at in an actual 1v1 dogfight the d30 has more than a chance to kill the k4 close in. Adams point in which I agree with but your point is that the k4 is good at things which most good fighters are lmao it’s more general than specific.
So are we judging planes based on dogfighting capabilities now? So is A6M better than mustang?
Byralie I hope you realize the k4 and d30 are more closely matched than a zero vs a mustang.... if not than you are really slow. The k4 has some chance if handled right the p51 has no chance no matter how handled unless it’s at high-speed or momentum fights like @vannsinn or whatever his UA-cam is. (Not to mention this convo has nothing to do with the zero in the first place especially if we are discussing energy fighters in dogfights/1v1 scenarios.)
That's exactly what I'm claiming... If handled right the K4 is untouchable by the D30 and that in my book makes it a better plane.
i would like to see what happens if the d30 runs away at sea level, like happens in air rb
Unfortunately for them the maps in the game aren't endless, 109's climb, position themselves and catch them in a dive. If the maps were endless they could indeed run away.
If there's anything that adam failed to say is how his opinions are valid in public match.. rather than a tourney.. we should change it to 2v2 or 3v3.. which can be more complex, and that 1,5km/h is very hard to take advantages of in that situation..
I think you lost the point of Adam's video. It's so true that you won those battles and that you're better pilot, but Adam's approach is putting 2 "more or less similar fighters" on a dodgefight-close-combat scenario that they don't necessary fit in. Of course in a 1vs1 situation there is no point on dodgefighting "closecombat style" with energy fighters, but that's the "spice" on Adam's videos. Sometimes you have to dodgefight even with a K4, due to enemies positions or whatever, and that's the interesting part of his videos. Because of that you can find videos on his channel where you find certain planes outside their comfort zones, showing people what can they do inside those nasty situations.
Anyway your purpose on this video is clear. Making your point is just the previous step of your real goal: mocking around while getting viewers. Congrats for the 1'5k views, it's a real "step ahead" from your previous (and probably future) videos.
Rispido E. Can you step out of adams fan/friend/lover(not judging) shoes just for a moment. This was not about the players and their skill, this has nothing to do with views, (shit number of views = 3xshit number of views). This is about the vehicles and their capabilities in war thunder. The initial question was "what can german planes do?" Adams answer was misleading, benjo0 corrected him, and later corrected himself, for the benefit of the community. Noones comparing individual skill between adam and benjo0, noones trying to "get views" or use other channels for their own benefit. Frankly, the idea that somebody is mooching of such a small channel as adams is a bit ridicules. If you like adams channel thats great but try to think critically and recognize mistakes such channels make for your own benefit.
"Not judging", hahaha. How old are you? 6? You can't say whatever you want and avoid responsability like a kid, Coka39. Imagine that I tell you: please, stop licking Byralie's balls + not judging.
I don't give a thing if A is better than B, or if Adam is not a "megapro". I cannot care less. I just pointed that the approach was different, because one thing is a close-combat scenario and another using the entire map in your convenience. And I repeat, is Byralie better than Adam talking about skill? I cannot care less, probably yes. I'm not taking any sides here, but I just think that this video is tricky because of that.
Finally I just pointed an empiric data about this YT Channel: 30% of the total views are because of this video.
Rispido E. Id say i try to watch my sodium intake. See, try not ro take jokes too seriously. You are yet again comparing the 2 players, you insist to miss the point of the video. When you say close combat you mean turn fighting at knife point? So zero best mono plane prop in game? If you are comparing 2 planes there is much more to each plane then that but if turnfighting is interesting to you great. Again the question was what can 109s do? Much more then what adam is arguing. Another empirical fact : 30% of next to no views = next to no views. 200% of next to no views = next to no views. 500% of... you get the point. The notion he was trying to win over the 12 guys that follow adam for his own enormous gain is a bit funny.
If that was true, he wouldn't call it "What can Germany do" and then show subtitles and chat about how Bf-109s are trash and inferior. He clearly wanted to present his opinion about Bf-109s and P-51D-30 in general and about how playing Germany is difficult, neither of which is true.
This comment was posted 1 month ago. You may want to reconsider now that cannons are buffed.
Is the engine in warthunder -30 the merlin-3 or -7?
Here's real life facts about the Bf-109 and P-51 just for anyone that's interested in how the planes worked in real life.
Bf-109K4 was never used in service. At high altitudes the P-51D outperformed the Bf-109's that weren't designed to perform at altitudes the P-51d was designed for, to do bomber escorts. In real life the P-51's engine outperformed the Bf-109 at every single altitude. This was because the P-51 used higher octane fuel increasing the engine manifold pressure. and the Supercharger on the Merlin engine was superior to that of the Bf-109. Germany could have made a superior fighter if only they weren't out of resources. The K variant realistically would have been even in terms of performance at all altitudes compared to the P-51. Thats because Germany used water methanol injection on the K4. It's actually pretty ingenious really. The P-51d used 150 octane while the Bf-109K4 would be using 90 octane like the G variants. But the water methanol injection would have put the planes on equal terms. But the allies would have countered the K4 had it entered service easily with the P-51H variant which had a bigger engine, used 150 octane fuel, and used water methanol injection just like the K4. Only problem with water methanol injection tho is it's not good for the engine so more maintenance is required.
The Bf109K4 was used in combat. There were even two Bf109 K14s that saw combat
@@Serkay64 Correction on my part. They saw service, but none survived the war.
Thank you finaly for diasaproving his point
remember this is only a game. So it isn’t a 100% super accurate comparison for the planes IRL. No discredit to this video, or the plane
A few more notes
Don’t ever trash either these aircraft IRL. The mustang had to make compromises to increase its range (literally 1/3 of the plane is fuel), and even then it would come down to whoever played their strengths, if the mustang lured the Bf-109K into a turnfight or down lower, it had a nice advantage. If a Bf-109K used the tactics similar to those in the video, it enjoyed the advantage. I think both aircraft are good where they are, minus the cannon buff.
Undefined Logic
Yes, but the P-47 would be worse. Every plane sort has a bad time when stuffed with fuel
@Undefined Logic you are somewhat right, but thr problem is that late in the war nobodyneeded a short range fighter, as they were plentiful. The P-51B was designed to fill an important role, not for bragging rights many years later
WT is very realistic though
The cannons are fine but the 50 cals are over performing
KrankysFirebrand48
How many WWII aces can buy G-force resistance? How many wwiii aces can literally pull a flawless, hyper-consistent turn? How many wwii aces can literally see through the aircraft? How many wwii aces can point and click to get what is basically borderline Aimbot?
Cannons are just as broken, if not more broken than .50s.
No_Fun_Allowed Yes this is true. But all aircraft have these conditions. The dogfight will always depend on who is the best pilot. But when comparing the best aircraft you must see past the pilots point of view.
And cannons are doing as they should be. Except the 30mm which is under-performing massively
I think the biggest mistake here was trying to get the D30 to dogfight. American planes have a hard time turning (for the most part), but their speed is pretty solid. BnZ always seemed to work out better for me. It all comes down to how well you can fly your plane.
In all honesty I’ve played both aircraft and in my opinion I’ve totally washed 109 k 4s in my d30 and vise versa it’s fair because while the d30 is scary in speed maneuvers, turnfights, energy control, and momentum fighting it isn’t the best in the climb atleast not sustainable at low alt // tbh in my conclusion the k4 is one of the easiest props to play, and for me has less of a stigma behind its performance because even back then before the 109 buff they stomped IMO but for me I feel the d30 carry’s this sort of pressure with playing it especially with the tendency of USA teams to be trash although German teams are starting to get the same way but not as bad I am more confident meaning I take more risks and am not so tense that I mess up (but I have sometimes) I just slaughtered p47Ms nearly stock and fought a p 47d up at 12km he was running and trying to extreme alt fight me in which the k4 isn’t so good at comparing it to us planes but I made him think I was letting him go as I cleverly dragged him to 9-8km up and I gained speed, caught him, and he payed dearly with 30mm round blowing him to smithereens, nothing left. But I have an anxiety issue to were if I’m not confident then I mess up which is what happens in the p 51d30 to me and it’ll be so simple and I could of had the 109 but I missed and on top of that the whole team dies and I’m left to fight 10-3 planes (I’ve won 1v5 and that’s my comfortability cut off in a disadvantage) in conclusion both planes match up pretty well but if one is played correctly they are extremely deadly also weirdly enough I’ve out ran Ta 152s and 109k4s but if you let a k 4 catch you at a certain speed he can accelerate up to you. And will catch u in a dive if not careful so it’s good you go fast asf (over 470mph is where it locks up then fight him at high speed, or get him in a drawn out turnfight but only if you are alone) but an advantage I like is that it doesn’t over heat as fast but only slightly otherwise I love flying the k4 and the d30 they are utterly stunning but since I’ve got the k4 it’s sorta easy mode if I’m calm.
Hard to read without proper punctuation, just sayin'...
Ken R.B. Johnsen Ken R.B. No one is forced to read it but ok lmao. Also not everyone speaks Primarily English but I guess we forget ppl who know multiple languages....But I do respect the honesty and without such rude tone as the first little UA-camr.
109s did not stomp back when they couldnt even hit 7Gs
Inverted V12 Powerhouse They actually kinda did it’s all in how you use the thing. I knew some good players lol. Since everyone says you shouldn’t dogfight than the new flight model changes nothing to the success of the k4. And to be honest the flight model changes aren’t the only reason for the k4’s current success things like rolls Royce nerf with overheat was a big one imo. And other nerds to the spitfire and Mustang because it felt worse than before to be real with you however it isn’t unplayable. Then on top of that allied teams got dumber ever since most recently because at the start of the k4 big change allies teams were still kinda good (some hit or miss). But afterwards they started not climbing again and getting they ass kicked yet again like they did before the “massive” k4 buff.
Dub Dots ive noticed a massive difference in win rates when the 109 got its initial buff. Win/loss ratios went from 45% to 70
Idk who either of you are, but it seems like the substance of that other guy's argument was: "Nuh-uh!!!"
The p51 dived instead of climbing when you were to gain the high ground as you did it probably wouldn’t have been the same outcome the p51 was a great plane and so was the k4 it just depends on the pilot yes a few things may vary but yeee
even tho i don't like planes in war thunder and i don't play often , the video was very well edited and made me laugh ! Keep up the good work !
Well skill of the pilot really determines it all, I know a guy who absolutely rocks every plane, and a guy who couldn't get a kill with the T-2 flying straight and level after a B-57 (True story) this guy obviously had no clue on how to use the mustang, or he would have taken to climbing instantly and he also should have side climbed and tried to attack from above or the side
In evenly matched weapons, does it come down to training and tactics?
If you mean in duels with same airplanes, then yes mostly practice. It comes down perfecting every minuscule thing in order to get a tighter turn and get guns on target, things like speed management, throttle control, flaps and rudder etc. Everything I'm saying is in the context of the game of course, I cannot comment on real life air dogfights.
Adam is a child.
Was the Mustang using 150 octane fuel..also what altitude was the fight fought at? No doubt the K4 was powerful.
Boy, with his current performance he sure as hell did toy around with me..
EvgeniyPetrosyan how so
Byralie no its boring
It’s good in Sim 👍👍
@@_lliu3oqppehu9l_83 really what kind of nerf did they get?
In DCS you have to really struggle to even get a shoot at K4 with P51D.
leading a shot with prop planes that cam flat spin anytime you make a mistake makes shooting more difficult and also leading Targets in first person
The fights usually lands up in the deck in which d30 usually has the advantage rather than k4. If brought to decent altitude, I agree that the k4 can keep up on its own against a d30, with the exception that the k4 actually rolls quite terribly at low speeds and the fights that adam and his partner usually has all been just stall fighting, nothing about energy fighting (now that I can tell the difference, I notice that his duel vids demo are mostly close range shooting and engagement). When it's about energy advantage, it really comes down to how the plane is handled to maximize the energy by utilizing the planes strengths. The k4 whenenever it dives, it's really a goner because about every allied planes gains more energy when diving and will eventually land with better performance at low alts. I'd be interested if you upload the other duels with different planes that you tested with him. Disproving Adam's point might hurt his morale or motivation to upload vids, but I hope that you both can learn from each other as well as others can learn from you.
No, the fights don't usually end up in the deck.. It's one of the reasons the germans have 80% win rate at 5.3 B.R. The plane that has the altitude advantage can force the opponent to dive to the deck. After that no sane pilot will continue to chase, bleed energy and then turn with the enemy but rather use the superior retention to regain altitude and then bnz them to death.
As for other planes, Adam didn't show any interest in doing any further testing. I think the fact that his precious mustang proved helpless really beat him down. I however did invite any viewer to suggest a plane to go up against the K4 and to jump into a custom to test it. So far only one guy suggested a bunch and we tested. Premium Yak(VK-107) outperformed it massively and that's what I wrote in the pinned comment.
You did not turned around, this was about duel, not just going straight and keeping your energy, Adam could have kept on going straight, but he tought you were going to join the duel too, not just kepp going straight
He wanted to prove his point about how the K4 is superior to the D30 and he is true dueling is not just "turnfighting" but it dedicates each pilot to get the advantage over the other in dogfighting
@Goku Vegeta that is exactly what i was trying to say well stated dude
Playing 3th person with instructor .... try that in SB that more serious
What about P-47 N or M vs K4. I don't really play K4 much but the P-47N is a monster if flown correct.
3:43 you're wrong, that proves you are a good pilot. Not the plane.
My piloting skills are making the plane perform better? Interesting...
not necessarily but using the plane's cons and pros to your advantage makes you perform better.
All right, since I climb better and can gain distance as well as perform better at altitude. What should he have done tell me?
I don't deny those facts about k4 against d30, I'm just telling you that planes don't matter if pilot is good. I think on 1v1 d30 has no chance to survive against k4 if pilots are equally skilled, maybe he can try to lure you down to sea level alt but you can reject that and always stay up high and fight would last more than 30mins which is incredibly boring since this is a game. (if my english is bad please forgive me)
"I think on 1v1 D30 has no chance to survive against K4 if pilots are equally skilled". In my book that makes one plane better than the other. If hypothetically the pilots are equally skilled the better plane wins.
What's the name of the song used in the video?
The way he flies, a semi-decent Zero pilot could kill him easy too in a duel.
He flies differently depending on the plane. if you watch Adam, you'd understand.
Do you have any tips on fighting P51Hs in the K4? They just seem to do everything better than me