I like the fact that it's similar to other rescue/ getting out of the system techniques. When things start to go wrong and you start to flap (not me, obviously) the fewer things you have to pull from the back of your memory the better.
I've not considered entirely removing the belay plate! I've gotten rather quick just redirecting and opening the device, but usually don't lower more than 10 meters! This method might take just a bit longer to set up, but seems smoother for longer lowers.
What you call an Italian hitch seems to be what I know as a Munter hitch. I am curious why you would prefer to lower the load on an Italian hitch, rather than re-rig the ATC/tuber as the descent device, after it has been removed from it's original use. I am also going to echo some of the other comments about a prussic behind the Italian hitch being a good practice. Thanks for posting. Your descriptions & demonstrations are quite clear & concise.
Only because it would create one more step. The Italian / Munter will be in place already so I just stick with that and the belay has probably been setup so the belayer is below rather than behind, so you might not be in the right place to easily operate an ATC in its normal mode.
In a recent FB group thread on the Megajul the question came up about how to lower from guide mode and this was my recommendation! I am very glad to see I am not alone on this being preferred for long lowers. If you plan on using this technique for long lowers, then you basically eliminate the one really serious shortcoming of the Megajul. You get all the benefit of a guide atc plus assisted braking. You save weight, size, you gain a bunch of functionality, it is madeof steel so it is super durable....Can you tell I am a fan? Anyway, thanks for such a clear and effective demo of this not often recommended technique! Love your stuff.
it seems like you remembered my question and made a new video, thank you! this is way better than the redirect: It's logic and way less complicated and for my feeling, one problem with the redirect is actually the leaning back for lowering. In an alpine environment mostly a do not want to lean back into the gear or near the cliff! But one question i have: I there is full weight on the rope, because my mate is hanging in there. lets say he is hit by a rock or can't find the bolts. How to i get the rope back into my guide plate? Do you do the same thing ovet again with the prusik und the guide plate behind the hms/italian? Holding the full weighted talian hitch for long can be strenous i think.
Coming back to this excellent video after practising and using the technique for a season, I'd like to point out the small detail that step two in the process (after step one, being the "catastrophy knot") might be to clip in the sling in the anchor. Makes it easier to then attach the prusik when you can clip it directly to the anchor, without the risk of dropping it or seeing it taking off down the rope.
Don´t you think it could be more redundant (don´t know if this is the correct word) to lower the climber through a prusik after the italian hitch (I mean prusik>italian hitch>climber) instead of lowering the climber from only your hand? Congrats for the channel!
The more tools in the tool box, the better you are equipped to deal with different situations. Nothing wrong with learning more skills, in fact I think it's a responsible thing to do.
Great video as always, never thought about doing that for lowering! Have you got any plans to do a training plan video,would definitely find it interesting on how you perodise your workouts.
Love the videos, what great info well presented. One question when you are lowering on the Italian would you put a prussik on the deadend as a back up rather than just holding it with 2 hands. That’s what we do over in the US for our SPI exam just wondered your thoughts ? Keep up the good work
Good question. Personally probably not in normal circumstances. When you're lowering a mate on an ATC for example, you don't back that up with a prusik. I would if I was in a rock fall spot or something though.
One issue I saw there was that while you were getting rid of the prusik and belay device you were still holding the rope with your other hand hand. Now with a person hanging from the italian hitch I would be scared that it may slip on me. I would probably tie a mule knot under the italian so that I can safely let go of the rope and take care of the stuff I want to remove. Once the stuff is remove you could just untie the mule and lower the climber. Just 2 fast simple additional steps but the increase in safety is significant.
Great video, thanks JB. Though I was just thinking this would be a pain if you had 2 seconds simultaneously climbing on guide mode. I guess you would just have to ask the other second to stop climbing and tie them off to a screw gate on the anchor with their dead rope before removing the plate (leave a bit of slack to be able to remove the plate). I suppose with 2 seconds you may not need to lower since the other second could possibly assist the one in trouble.
I would add another prusik on you to the rope before it goes to the italian/munter hitch, because after you remove the catastrophe knot there's no other backup. If you let go of the rope, there goes your partner. Yes, you will have to adjust the prusik but it's safer.
No need. If you lower someone on a normal non assisted braking device, do we all put prusiks on? I won't let go of the brake strand. I get what you're saying of course, I just don't think it's remotely necessary in the real world, under normal circumstances.
@@JBMountainSkills A loose rock could bonk you - a swarm of wasps could attack - a sudden fainting spell - any form of beast could change your ability to hold the breaking line. Is it likely? No But it's an unnecessary risk. You can't predict "normal circumstances". Shouldn't you always backup with something like a break-line autoblock?
Do you back up your ATC style belay device when belaying? No. Or if using a non assisted belay device sport climbing do you back it up when lowering your mate? No. Now I’m not saying I’d never do it, but normally, no I wouldn’t.
@@JBMountainSkills Fair enough, JB. But you do lose the auto-blocking capability of guide mode. Belaying - one hand on either side of the device/hitch - is the backup for a climber. Lowering is different proposition - most all of the guides I've seen demonstrate lowering a climber with a Munter include an autoblock backup as part of best practice. Best practices no doubt vary around the world & I respect your experience. Every climber makes their own risk decisions. Very much enjoy your videos.
I guess you're mostly right, but I see a psychological difference between both cases: if someone is lowering me, I have no control over the situation and it makes me feel safe if I know there's a backup. When I'm climbing, the belay itself is the backup, if you know what I mean.
I saw you at little tryfan couple days ago and almost fan girl screamed but it looked like you were with a client so had to contain myself haha Thank you for the videos, love them super helpful was on my first trad trip and they helped to no end. 😁
@@JBMountainSkills Definitely will do. Maybe get you to autograph my harness or something next time 😉haha. Had a great trip thanks learned loads. Be climbing e9 in no time lol 🤥
I do something very similar but I lock off the munter as soon as I take the slack out, the reason is then I don't have to worry about having a hand on the brake when I'm releasing the prussik and removing the other gear from the system
thanks for the video! do you ever back up the italian with a friction hitch on the brake strand? Also, since the friction hitch on the load strand stays pretty static, would you ever just tie a klemheist with the long sling, and save yourself a carabiner and a prussik loop?
After taking weight onto the Italian hitch, wouldn't it be a good idea to back up with a mule, allowing two hands to clean the system, and keep things safer?
I like this technique, and i've never heard of it before, so it's a fresh look at an old problem. I disagree that this method is simpler, it's about as complex as the other technique overall. I think that if one is already comfortable belaying with a munter hitch, then this technique makes sense. One downside is that if your climber wanted to start climbing again, then you'd need to decide whether the Munter was sufficient for belaying the climber up, as it's not auto-blocking. But if your 2nd is already strugggling, then it's debatable whether a Munter is really the best. It seems this technique is only suitable if you wanted to bail from the route, and rap down after you finish lowering the climber. But if your 2nd wanted to have another go, then you might consider re-rigging the guide belay plate again. If the climber is at the base, then they could go off belay when you re-rig the guide plate, but if they are weighted, then you have the exact same problem as before, and you need to use a prusik to escapt the Munter belay, while you redo everything. At this point, you'll be wonderiong why you went to all that trouble. So my approach would be: a) If you decide to lower your 2nd and bail from the route, then use a prusik to escape from the guide plate and lower the climber with the Munter, or b) If you want to lower your 2nd and try again and continue, then use the normal "redirect" technique, keeping the guide plate in place.
Thanks for another great video! Really think you are good at explaining the steps and why. Got a question - how would your preferred method be for lowering your second if they weigh 30kg more than you and you’d only have to lower them a meter or two? I’m thinking this method could work well if I lowered them to the bottom of a route, but for medium distances where they’d start climbing again, then it seems to be a bit of faff if I were to put them back on a belay plate. Actually it would be amazing if you could do a video on tips for multi pitching with a heavier partner 🥳 like your escape the system and get to an unconscious partner - not sure the prussik above their knot would be enough to unweighted the rope for me 🤔
Nice method. I hadn't thought of converting my guide plate to an Italian hitch. But my usual method is to pop on a sling or prussik then using my foot to press open the plate. To then lower like a normal plate. I find that that works well for me. is there Anything particularly wrong with that? I am always willing to learn. I haven't had to do it on a hanging belay though. And I am usually the less experienced partner so lowering is rare. Unless its to retrieve gear that has been accidentally yeeted over a ledge
If blessed with having a DMM pivot would you still use thos method? I've found I cN successfully lower a person using the DMMpivot wit the addition of a slim carabiner (from a alpine draw) into the outside eye on the plate and then just use that as a handle to controll the lower while holding the dead rope in the other hand
Might be a daft question so correct me if so, but could you not also tie a knot of a bite into the crab instead of an italian hitch as a back up for the prusik, and then reconfigure the belay play to be used like it would be for normal belaying instead of removing it?
I’m brand new to climbing and something I see again and again is being backed-up. Could you please explain why I simply couldn’t lower using the guide plate and a prussic as a back-up and safety knots every few meters? I understand you can can get ‘runaway’ lowering, but the prussic would prevent that, no?
Would the same method work with twin ropes? And would you use 2 Italian hitches or just lower on 1 rope Also would the single prusick work wrapped round both ropes
Is there a way to bring it back to guide mode? E.g. second falls off on an overhang and you lower them several metres back to the start of the overhang for them to try again. Particularly if it's a situation where they aren't being lowered to a spot they can safely stand (ledge, ground, bolted belay, etc)
Thanks Jez. As you mentioned running out of biners, what’s a rough number of each type you’d normally carry? When practicing escaping the system I keep running out so it tells me I’m not carrying enough.
He always demonstrates with lockers everywhere but in his other videos he has said he only carries 4 lockers. I think he generally doesnt use lockers at anchor to gear interfaces, only at masterpoint. So the 4 would be his personal clove hitch, 2 on belay device, and 1 running munter. Then he doesnt have lockers always at prusik, and has said it isnt the safety, the backup knots are, and normally doesnt have a locker at all interfaces of the prusik, just where he can.
I've abseiled on a munter/Italian before with two ropes before and it seemed to work just fine (if a little more friction) :) but limited experience with that
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I like the fact that it's similar to other rescue/ getting out of the system techniques. When things start to go wrong and you start to flap (not me, obviously) the fewer things you have to pull from the back of your memory the better.
Yeah I do like the sort of transferable skills :)
@@JBMountainSkills I nearly said out of your tool box but thought better of it
I've not considered entirely removing the belay plate! I've gotten rather quick just redirecting and opening the device, but usually don't lower more than 10 meters! This method might take just a bit longer to set up, but seems smoother for longer lowers.
I think that's the key, short lower - prob not this method, long lower - it's a worthwhile consideration :)
What you call an Italian hitch seems to be what I know as a Munter hitch. I am curious why you would prefer to lower the load on an Italian hitch, rather than re-rig the ATC/tuber as the descent device, after it has been removed from it's original use. I am also going to echo some of the other comments about a prussic behind the Italian hitch being a good practice. Thanks for posting. Your descriptions & demonstrations are quite clear & concise.
Only because it would create one more step. The Italian / Munter will be in place already so I just stick with that and the belay has probably been setup so the belayer is below rather than behind, so you might not be in the right place to easily operate an ATC in its normal mode.
@@JBMountainSkills Thank you for taking the time to reply.
Love it. Simpler and seems safer than redirecting and overcoming guide mode. Will be using this going forward I think.
Really appreciate you sharing your learning and skills. Another clear and concise lesson! 😀
My pleasure!
In a recent FB group thread on the Megajul the question came up about how to lower from guide mode and this was my recommendation! I am very glad to see I am not alone on this being preferred for long lowers. If you plan on using this technique for long lowers, then you basically eliminate the one really serious shortcoming of the Megajul. You get all the benefit of a guide atc plus assisted braking. You save weight, size, you gain a bunch of functionality, it is madeof steel so it is super durable....Can you tell I am a fan?
Anyway, thanks for such a clear and effective demo of this not often recommended technique! Love your stuff.
it seems like you remembered my question and made a new video, thank you!
this is way better than the redirect: It's logic and way less complicated and for my feeling, one problem with the redirect is actually the leaning back for lowering. In an alpine environment mostly a do not want to lean back into the gear or near the cliff!
But one question i have: I there is full weight on the rope, because my mate is hanging in there. lets say he is hit by a rock or can't find the bolts.
How to i get the rope back into my guide plate? Do you do the same thing ovet again with the prusik und the guide plate behind the hms/italian?
Holding the full weighted talian hitch for long can be strenous i think.
Coming back to this excellent video after practising and using the technique for a season, I'd like to point out the small detail that step two in the process (after step one, being the "catastrophy knot") might be to clip in the sling in the anchor. Makes it easier to then attach the prusik when you can clip it directly to the anchor, without the risk of dropping it or seeing it taking off down the rope.
Don´t you think it could be more redundant (don´t know if this is the correct word) to lower the climber through a prusik after the italian hitch (I mean prusik>italian hitch>climber) instead of lowering the climber from only your hand? Congrats for the channel!
The more tools in the tool box, the better you are equipped to deal with different situations. Nothing wrong with learning more skills, in fact I think it's a responsible thing to do.
Great video as always, never thought about doing that for lowering! Have you got any plans to do a training plan video,would definitely find it interesting on how you perodise your workouts.
Love the videos, what great info well presented. One question when you are lowering on the Italian would you put a prussik on the deadend as a back up rather than just holding it with 2 hands. That’s what we do over in the US for our SPI exam just wondered your thoughts ? Keep up the good work
Good question. Personally probably not in normal circumstances. When you're lowering a mate on an ATC for example, you don't back that up with a prusik.
I would if I was in a rock fall spot or something though.
One issue I saw there was that while you were getting rid of the prusik and belay device you were still holding the rope with your other hand hand. Now with a person hanging from the italian hitch I would be scared that it may slip on me. I would probably tie a mule knot under the italian so that I can safely let go of the rope and take care of the stuff I want to remove. Once the stuff is remove you could just untie the mule and lower the climber. Just 2 fast simple additional steps but the increase in safety is significant.
Great video, thanks JB. Though I was just thinking this would be a pain if you had 2 seconds simultaneously climbing on guide mode. I guess you would just have to ask the other second to stop climbing and tie them off to a screw gate on the anchor with their dead rope before removing the plate (leave a bit of slack to be able to remove the plate). I suppose with 2 seconds you may not need to lower since the other second could possibly assist the one in trouble.
Chances are you would all be going down if one is I would imagine.
Funnily enough I have been doing it like that for past week.😂😂😂😂 Can't think where I picked it up from. Great video for reminding me. 👍👍
I would add another prusik on you to the rope before it goes to the italian/munter hitch, because after you remove the catastrophe knot there's no other backup. If you let go of the rope, there goes your partner. Yes, you will have to adjust the prusik but it's safer.
No need. If you lower someone on a normal non assisted braking device, do we all put prusiks on? I won't let go of the brake strand. I get what you're saying of course, I just don't think it's remotely necessary in the real world, under normal circumstances.
@@JBMountainSkills A loose rock could bonk you - a swarm of wasps could attack - a sudden fainting spell - any form of beast could change your ability to hold the breaking line. Is it likely? No But it's an unnecessary risk. You can't predict "normal circumstances". Shouldn't you always backup with something like a break-line autoblock?
Do you back up your ATC style belay device when belaying? No. Or if using a non assisted belay device sport climbing do you back it up when lowering your mate? No.
Now I’m not saying I’d never do it, but normally, no I wouldn’t.
@@JBMountainSkills Fair enough, JB. But you do lose the auto-blocking capability of guide mode. Belaying - one hand on either side of the device/hitch - is the backup for a climber. Lowering is different proposition - most all of the guides I've seen demonstrate lowering a climber with a Munter include an autoblock backup as part of best practice. Best practices no doubt vary around the world & I respect your experience. Every climber makes their own risk decisions. Very much enjoy your videos.
I guess you're mostly right, but I see a psychological difference between both cases: if someone is lowering me, I have no control over the situation and it makes me feel safe if I know there's a backup. When I'm climbing, the belay itself is the backup, if you know what I mean.
I saw you at little tryfan couple days ago and almost fan girl screamed but it looked like you were with a client so had to contain myself haha
Thank you for the videos, love them super helpful was on my first trad trip and they helped to no end. 😁
Say hi next time!!
Glad the videos have been useful and hope you enjoyed your trad trip!
@@JBMountainSkills Definitely will do. Maybe get you to autograph my harness or something next time 😉haha.
Had a great trip thanks learned loads. Be climbing e9 in no time lol 🤥
I do something very similar but I lock off the munter as soon as I take the slack out, the reason is then I don't have to worry about having a hand on the brake when I'm releasing the prussik and removing the other gear from the system
thanks for the video! do you ever back up the italian with a friction hitch on the brake strand? Also, since the friction hitch on the load strand stays pretty static, would you ever just tie a klemheist with the long sling, and save yourself a carabiner and a prussik loop?
Good idea but... we need the prusik to release under load and a klemheist isn’t very good for that.
After taking weight onto the Italian hitch, wouldn't it be a good idea to back up with a mule, allowing two hands to clean the system, and keep things safer?
I like this technique, and i've never heard of it before, so it's a fresh look at an old problem. I disagree that this method is simpler, it's about as complex as the other technique overall. I think that if one is already comfortable belaying with a munter hitch, then this technique makes sense.
One downside is that if your climber wanted to start climbing again, then you'd need to decide whether the Munter was sufficient for belaying the climber up, as it's not auto-blocking. But if your 2nd is already strugggling, then it's debatable whether a Munter is really the best. It seems this technique is only suitable if you wanted to bail from the route, and rap down after you finish lowering the climber.
But if your 2nd wanted to have another go, then you might consider re-rigging the guide belay plate again. If the climber is at the base, then they could go off belay when you re-rig the guide plate, but if they are weighted, then you have the exact same problem as before, and you need to use a prusik to escapt the Munter belay, while you redo everything. At this point, you'll be wonderiong why you went to all that trouble.
So my approach would be:
a) If you decide to lower your 2nd and bail from the route, then use a prusik to escape from the guide plate and lower the climber with the Munter, or
b) If you want to lower your 2nd and try again and continue, then use the normal "redirect" technique, keeping the guide plate in place.
Why wouldn't a punter be suitable for belaying a struggling climber? Auto blocking is nice of course, but far from a necessity.
Thanks for another great video! Really think you are good at explaining the steps and why.
Got a question - how would your preferred method be for lowering your second if they weigh 30kg more than you and you’d only have to lower them a meter or two?
I’m thinking this method could work well if I lowered them to the bottom of a route, but for medium distances where they’d start climbing again, then it seems to be a bit of faff if I were to put them back on a belay plate.
Actually it would be amazing if you could do a video on tips for multi pitching with a heavier partner 🥳 like your escape the system and get to an unconscious partner - not sure the prussik above their knot would be enough to unweighted the rope for me 🤔
You can stick a carabiner into the hole at the bottom of the device and wrench it open. It's a bit taxing, but fine for 1-2m.
Nice method. I hadn't thought of converting my guide plate to an Italian hitch. But my usual method is to pop on a sling or prussik then using my foot to press open the plate. To then lower like a normal plate. I find that that works well for me. is there Anything particularly wrong with that? I am always willing to learn. I haven't had to do it on a hanging belay though. And I am usually the less experienced partner so lowering is rare. Unless its to retrieve gear that has been accidentally yeeted over a ledge
If blessed with having a DMM pivot would you still use thos method? I've found I cN successfully lower a person using the DMMpivot wit the addition of a slim carabiner (from a alpine draw) into the outside eye on the plate and then just use that as a handle to controll the lower while holding the dead rope in the other hand
I do this with the Megajul
Might be a daft question so correct me if so, but could you not also tie a knot of a bite into the crab instead of an italian hitch as a back up for the prusik, and then reconfigure the belay play to be used like it would be for normal belaying instead of removing it?
I’m brand new to climbing and something I see again and again is being backed-up. Could you please explain why I simply couldn’t lower using the guide plate and a prussic as a back-up and safety knots every few meters? I understand you can can get ‘runaway’ lowering, but the prussic would prevent that, no?
What do you think about LSD, load strand direct? Its super easy and fast. works with weighted rope as well with a sling.
Would the same method work with twin ropes?
And would you use 2 Italian hitches or just lower on 1 rope
Also would the single prusick work wrapped round both ropes
Am I missing something? There’s no backup on the Munter hitch lowering means which seems risky.
Why is the load strand of the Munter hitch not on the spine side of the carabiner?
Nice!
Is there a way to bring it back to guide mode? E.g. second falls off on an overhang and you lower them several metres back to the start of the overhang for them to try again. Particularly if it's a situation where they aren't being lowered to a spot they can safely stand (ledge, ground, bolted belay, etc)
Thanks Jez. As you mentioned running out of biners, what’s a rough number of each type you’d normally carry? When practicing escaping the system I keep running out so it tells me I’m not carrying enough.
He always demonstrates with lockers everywhere but in his other videos he has said he only carries 4 lockers. I think he generally doesnt use lockers at anchor to gear interfaces, only at masterpoint. So the 4 would be his personal clove hitch, 2 on belay device, and 1 running munter. Then he doesnt have lockers always at prusik, and has said it isnt the safety, the backup knots are, and normally doesnt have a locker at all interfaces of the prusik, just where he can.
Great method!
Hey Jez. What sewn slings are you using for your prusiks?
that boulder has seen many belays😂
Same principal with half ropes??
I can't imagine an Italian hitch would be easy with two ropes...
I've abseiled on a munter/Italian before with two ropes before and it seemed to work just fine (if a little more friction) :) but limited experience with that
Wow. Lowering in guide mode really sucks.