Qing Saber Fencing Manual Translation 清代刀譜翻譯
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- Опубліковано 29 вер 2024
- In this video I discuss a Qing dynasty saber manual which I have recently translated into English.
A pdf of my translation can be found here:
drive.google.c...
Images/Sources
Kangxi Emperor = en.wikipedia.o...
Saber with segmented fuller = www.mandarinma...
Forbidden City = www.britannica...
Text Collection = www.taobao.com...
Guangxu Emperor = upload.wikimed...
Scholar’s Study = www.metmuseum....
Ruyi = www.metmuseum....
Gibbons at Play = commons.wikime...
Talhoffer = commons.wikime...
Music:
Intro Music Song: 春江花月夜 Artist: 顶斯华 Album: 中国古筝金曲, Vol. 3 (古筝独奏).
Outro Music: Song: Chinese Thunder Drums Album: World Drums: African, Samba, Taiko, Chinese and Middle Eastern Music.
I am so glad there is someone trying to interpret 萬代流傳單刀譜！please keep going！
I also look forward to your work with 十三刀法!
Great job Keith.
Thanks!
Awesome video, and looking forward to checking out the translation! What's the "other text" called?
I don’t know the name of the original. Online it is known as the 金刀譜圖.
您好，我想请问一下，我现在是在圣地亚哥学习hema，我们的课程是到了一定达标可以自己选择武器学习，我看了一下这个刀谱有些个别翻译错误的地方，像是仙人指路道遥，这个道应该是逍，然后第三路里您頂成了项，托成了扎，我想自己做点翻译然后自己用自己学习不发布网上，不知可不可以。
谢谢你指出这些错误！我会改正一下然后再上传到谷歌硬碟，当然你可以自己翻译一下！
We need Chinese HEMA with sparring vids. I want see in action
I am working to form a group with a focus on this manual and plan to feature sparring footage on the channel!
@@thescholar-general5975 Having tried to interpret this manual to some degree myself, I think it's promising - the dao vs spear techniques worked so well that single-sword was more likely to win over spear in two hands than the other way around, so long as the person with the single-sword is ready to sprint upon contact. The grappling parts of the partner forms, interpreted as 'I do this, you (my teacher) wreck me by doing this' also worked pretty much exactly using leather dussacks. The undercut beats the undercut for the same reason as a zornhau beats a zornhau technique also works pretty much as advertised. Didn't really interpret the rest yet, because they're a bit less obvious, but those two parts I could say worked very nicely.
@@DarkwarriorJ Sounds great! I haven’t tried out the dao vs spear stuff yet. I would be very interested in seeing/hearing more about your interpretation. Feel free to send me a pm on the facebook page or through email!
Wow! Thank you for making your work freely accessible - always the mark of true scholarship! Approaching the topic of poetic or 'coded' language from studying esoteric Hinduism, it is a device to keep uninitiated / unauthorized students ignorant of the actual teachings or techniques; one simple example: a lotus is referred to as a "pond-grower". The teacher has to orally interpret and expound the written meaning - and the meaning is flexible enough that it can evolve over time. The history of a text is always interesting and multiple authors and historical layers - like an onion, seems like a common feature of historical texts.
Yeah the puzzle of trying to connect to the original author and their intention is one of my favorite parts historical research! And many thinkers of the past have recorded ideas that can transcend their original context and offer something unique to each reader.
I also believe that the coded language here can serve as a kind of “secret code” to the initiated.
Amazing! We have been hoping for something like this so long. Spectacular work my friend. This promise to yield much fruit for a long time.
Thanks for your support!
Hello, don't have weapons weapons training experience yet but some different mix of unarmed and some compound bow.
A) It's pretty cool to get to peak into your translation.
B) Great River Taoist channel just referenced the source for the pictures you found.
(Video: Principles Of Single Chinese Saber - Chinese Swords & Swordsmanship Series)
Illustrated Guide from the Mastery of Military Techniques (兵技指掌图说) published in 1843 by Naer Jing-e (纳尔经额).
C) Think the later half of the [24 Postures of the Scepter Golden Saber] translation (pg.31-32) after the scan reference page 290 got out of order.
Besides that kind of a nifty way of formatting that was used for the paired drills in the document. With the slips writing aligned so one could both read the whole sequence in order along with reading each side's set of moves in order.
0) Recently reading through Master Sun's The Art of War. Pretty striking how much the descritions in the preface match certain pieces.
Really feels like it is what the framework is described to try to be working from.
- Chapter 4 Tactical Dispositions comments on "good fighters of old" and "clever fighters."
"Mapping" some of the ideas together:
Warfare as the art of deceptions. The appearance of being opposite.
"advance and retreat systematically."
"Attack and defend methodically,":
Chapter 3 Attack by Stratagem
- Thus the highest form of generalship is to balk the enemy's plans; the next best is to prevent the junction of the enemy's forces; the next in order is to attack the enemy's army in the field; and the worst policy of all is to besiege walled cities.
"(One must) appear and vanish magically,"
"concealing hardness within softness."
"The methods all arise naturally and correctly.":
Chapter 4 Tactical Dispositions
- The clever fighter excells in winning with ease.
- Effort and hardship are not skill and courage.
- Conceal your strength and plans.
- Keep your disposition unkown.
- If the enemy cannot find you you may hide in plain sight.
- Seem unable when able to attack.
- Seem inactive when using your forces.
- Make believe are far when are near.
- Make believe are near when are far.
- Control the perception.
"Without defense do not attack":
Chapter 4 Tactical Dispositions
Secure yourself against defeat.
- Attack is the secret of defense
- Defense is the planning of an attack
- Holding positions that cannot be attacked ensures the safety of your defense.
This thinking seems to match the prescription to train till have "received" the system. Effectively not thinking about which moves to use and instead just fighting in the way.
Chapter 5 Energy
The usage of Indirect vs Direct Maneuvers to counter each other seems to echo into the choices of response moves.
- Direct - is yang, cheng, hard, straight, obvious, expected.
- Indirect - is yin, chi, soft, turning, subtle, surprising.
- Together they can lead to confusion and mistakes.
"changing so no one can predict (you),"
"(Strike) both directly and with feints, so no one can predict (you).":
Chapter 6 Weak Points and Strong Line 28
- Sun Tzu: Do not repeat the tactics which have gained you one victory, but let your methods be regulated by the infinite variety of circumstances.
- Commentary: Military success often comes from the surprise created. Repeating a method which had success can be tempting. So repeating rarely has the same success.
"Let no retreat be without advance."
Not sure if this would connect on over to:
Chapter 7 Maneuvering
- Do not pursue an enemy who simulates flight nor leaves bait.
Or Chapter 5 Energy
- Talking about leveraging combined energy to build up momentum.
Guessing the answer to how true or not this is may show itself in the prescribed responses of the trained style.
1) Wondering about what their standard loadout was for their dress and gear. Especially the shoes they would be wearing since that can really change preferences for how someone wants to step.
Seems like finding decent simulators for the boots would be rather useful in reconstruction.
From what have gathered: spear, bow, sword, and brigandine - might be expected. Based on the Leopard Tail Imperial Bodyguards and a few portraits - if the choices weren't for aesthetic meaning over what they actually carried.
Not familiar with what the standard gear/clothing found in their portraits is.
Though however it behaves might decrease or change telegraphing traits for the different movements.
Any thoughts on tracking down which Dao versions they might be working with or if any within the standards was the aim?
Considering the potential "trend setter" status of the group I wonder if preferred Dao design trends came from preferences they started to have after training in this.
First exposure to the Dao in general so wondering what sort of simulators might match the gear behaviors.
2) Piecing together the setup and timeline from the Preface.
Getting the impression that 2 guys + the prince developed it first.
Then the other military group were brought in.
Taking 13 years to develop from initial exposure.
Then it passed inspection.
3) Any idea how "Entry to Saber methods" is related to this?
Wonder if a shortened version was on display that they may be teaching out vs the full version.
Seems like it would be a bit odd to count this whole form as "entry level" considering the extended training time talked about in the preface.
4) Do you know if there are manuals for the standard military forms detailing out spear and saber?
I'm wondering if the unlisted movements might be ones expected from standard soldiers.
If that's true then maybe they were worked in so didn't have to run through whole separate forms practice.
5) Good luck in reconstructing this.
It's pretty interesting trying to piece together what's going on in the movements.
Pulling together gear and finding the right interested people to work through reconstructing is quite the thing.
Thanks for watching! Yes working with this manual is quite the challenge. Sunzi's Art of War kind of codified the language that would be used to talk about certain key concepts such as "deception" and "hard" or "soft" for centuries to come. To go over some of your questions:
1) This manual appears to mostly be intended for a non-warfare dueling context which means that the loadout doesn't focus on spears and bows, though there are a few verses which do touch on countering the spear. This means that the main equipment used will simply be regular clothing of the day along with the standard peidao "side dao" of the 18th and early 19th centuries. These swords usually have a blade between 65-72 cm and they are fairly light usually between 700-900 grams. The standard boots of the day usually had a paper sole. I have actually ordered a pair and will be testing them out on a variety of surfaces in due time.
2) We have to be careful not to take the source at face value when it says who developed the system. Most chinese martial arts just make up their origin story and although this one seems fairly straight forward, they do still reference the mythical era of Yao and Shun as a way to legitimize their project. Overall, it seems likely that a number of people who likely already had experience in saber arts came together to develop the system but we can't say for sure.
3) I am not sure what you mean by "Entry to Saber Methods"
4) We have many manuals for the spear, and one manual for using the saber and shield to counter the spear specifically. Other than that, many more modern forms and manuals from the 20th century are specifically a saber vs spear scenario.
5) Thanks for the well wishes! Reconstructing this manual is a ton of work and I have done some, but there is still so much more work to do before I am ready to go public with it yet!
Thank you for making it available für us for free!
Thank you for the work, hope one day to have the time to study it.
That's quite impressive
Cool! Just got a niu wei dao from LK Chen …great timing :D. Greetings from Germany.
LK Chen is great! The only thing I'm missing is a dao with the fangshi square grip like on the yan ling dao. Man... now I wanna buy something from LK Chen (again).
Hello. I often watched your videos.
I have personally been studying Middle Eastern/Indian martial arts and nomadic martial arts for over five years.
I took a quick look at your translation, and the manual feels a bit Middle Eastern and influenced by old Eastern European styles, with less defense and more emphasis on complete counters. Messer, of course.
In Poland, there is a cut called nyzkiem, in which you cut diagonally downward and up towards the opponent's wrist.
This was also used as a counter for the same tempo.
By the way, many nomads used high guards. Considering the records of surrounding countries.
mongol, cumans, avar...
I'm typing this comment right away, so I haven't been able to see everything. Was highguard mentioned in that manual?
Dodge and cut styles have also been recorded in the Middle East.
That style prefers to dodge rather than defend with the sword.
It's a machine translation, so I'm sorry if it's hard for you to understand the meaning.
Thanks for watching! The manual does not reference specific guards too much, but there is a position known as “Su Qin wears his sword on the back” which is a kind of high guard in the manual.
@@thescholar-general5975 Has everything in the book already been translated in that PDF?
Perhaps, if there are strong elements of Manchurian swordsmanship remaining, this translation may become a masterpiece for all of my nomadic swordsmanship (aside from the fact that Manchurians are not nomads). .
It may be possible to cover all of Eurasia.
The highguard, avoidance style, and countercut are wonderfully Eurasian.
thank you!
what they mean in animals is to learn with age..not words cuse the form cant be made with meaning.. the sifu is not sifu without ppl who follow..
I hadn't thought of it from that perspective. Thanks for sharing!
Awesome! Thanks for the translation, and glad to see you're back.
Its good to be back!
Oh yeah, I think the "white snake spits out tongue" movement exists in bajiquan. Looking forward to seeing if the movements are related!
Keith do you have any two blades traditional forms?
This manual doesn’t have any double saber unfortunately. I have learned some of a double saber form, but not the whole thing. Later I will definitely do some more!
@@thescholar-general5975 Ty
the manuals are also a reporter and never the person who knows usualy those that know never speak.. those who speak never know
thank you so much for all of the effort, it is immensely appreciated
I just want to help in the way I can.
This is wonderful. It's encouraging to learn that there are yet undiscovered swordsmanship treatises out there. Though I can't offer an interpretation, I'd like to share some thoughts and observations.
1) Because this is from the Qing dynasty, and ostensibly designed for the Qing court, I suspect that this system, at least in part, reflects a Manchu style of fighting. As such, it would be worthwhile to compare it to Ming one-handed saber systems, if and when possible, to see how such systems changed during Manchu occupation.
2) Looking through the paired form, there is a surprising lack of defensive actions with the saber. Covers are only explicitly mentioned a few times. It seems that it expects the practitioner to void or move offline and counter cut in the same tempo. In this regard, it's quite different from a parry-riposte system like 19th century European saber. Instead, it's sort of reminiscent of the "master cuts" of the German tradition. In particular, the frequent reference to wrist cuts as a response to an attack reminds me of the krumphau. However, both the text and the images you show tell you to use ascending cuts, unlike the krumphau. Although, one-handed ascending cuts from the right feel rather awkward.
3) In previous videos, you have mentioned that there is a fair bit of grappling in one-handed saber. This seems reasonable, since you have a free hand, and in a military context, the saber would be drawn when an enemy gets too close for pole-arms, which would be grappling distance. Besides that, in an armored context, grappling can buy you precious time to strike at unarmored locations. However, in the the paired form, grappling, or "seizing" is only explicitly mentioned once. Yet, the text includes a cryptic verse on "seizing", implying its importance.
4) Based on the images you showed, it appears that this system is intended for unarmored combat. However, there are a few things that make me question that. For instance, the manual touches on saber vs spear, which is not a scenario you would expect to commonly occur in an unarmored context. Also, the assumed targets are quite specific. It tells you to cut the wrist, but never the arm. With armor, this make sense, as the arms were usually armored, but the hands were not. It also tells you to cut the face, but not the head, which helmets would explain. But on the other hand, it also speaks of cutting the shoulder and stabbing the ribs, which armor would protect against.
5) In each of the paired forms, it seems that the opponent ("他"), mostly makes the last offensive action, with no counter from the first person ("我"), who simply assumes the "unite with saber frame". I am unsure why this is, and I can't tell who is supposed to "win" the exchange.
6) This last point I assume is a consequence of my ignorance, and I imagine you have an easier time, but I find the terms in the paired forms very difficult to interpret. Some are a bit easier to figure out, such as a rotating step, which sounds like a triangle step, or a switch step, which might be a passing step. On the other hand, I can't tell what it means to "straighten the saber" to perform a cut, or if "lifting the saber" is meant to be a defensive action, and if I'm lifting my own saber, or lifting the opponent's saber by cutting into it.
Well, those are my initial thoughts after reading through the paired forms. I have not read some of the other parts by virtue of their absolute inscrutability, but perhaps cross referencing with the names in existing forms would be fruitful.
Thanks for your comment! You have some great observations here, and I will do my best to address them.
1) It is unknown how much manchu saber fighting is present in the manual because we know almost next to nothing about pre-conquest saber use among the jurchens. Sabers exist in many steppe cultures, but those cultures all talked about archery and wrestling much more than dueling. Meanwhile swords are more culturally valued in China and other sedentary societies in East Asia. Additionally, the names of the disciples in the preface who create the system all have chinese names. It is possible that some of them may have been manchu, but in the early 18th century they would have certainly spoken manchu as their mother tongue and the absence of Manchu names would be a little strange. It is possible that their are Manchu elements within the system but the basic terminology used to describe actions aligns perfectly with many names for these actions in living chinese dao systems.
2) In short yes, single-time actions appear to be the dominant method in these paired saber forms. Paired forms in other systems like the Wudang jian also work this way. You can find videos of it to see what I am talking about. One other thing to mention is that certain actions such as beating tiao 挑 / peng 砰 and hanging gua 挂 also refer to blade actions. I would agree with your comparison between western military saber and daofa. In my own view the messer is much closer to the dao than the military saber.
3) Part of this is due to a bad habit on my part. The term qinshou 擒手 is used four times in the paired forms. I translated this as “seizing hand” a couple times in the manual but in some other places I simple said “grab the hand”. The term tuoshou 托手 also appears a couple times in the partner forms. This is also translated as “grab the hand”. The term bawan 拔腕 “pull the wrist” is also used once. A couple of the forms also describe letting go of a grip on the wrist or stripping the enemies grip. One more thing to say here is that the version of the manual with pictures contains one image that shows a grapple but it is not described in the text on the page, so there could be parts of the manual with grabs which are not present in the writing.
4) The manual is kind of written in a way in which they always give an object to the verb which describes an action with the blade. They don’t ever say “make a cut” or just “cut him” rather they specify some kind of object that is being cut. The most common target by far is the wrist followed by the neck and then the leg. I suspect that they saw the wrist as a better target than the arm because it is closer. This is also something that we see in jianfa. So I do not think it is necessarily indicative of armored combat.
5) Most of the forms end with “him” winning. The “unite with saber frame” is just the move at the end of a form. In living traditions this is a move in which you place the handle in your left hand when your palm is facing forwards and rest the saber in your left elbow and I believe it is probably the same thing here.
6) Yes the terminology makes things difficult. Some of the terminology seems very clear in the original language but some of it is quite a bit more complicated. I also believe that rotating step refers to a passing step, but not everyone I have talked to feels this way. A larger elephant in the room here is deciding which leg should be forward because the depiction of the opening move of the second form in the manual with pictures shows the left leg forward which could change the way the entire rest of the form moves from that point on. Later on at some point, I will make videos and perhaps publish an annotated version of the manual which discusses the basic techniques present in the text. By the way, “straightening the saber” in the context of the manual means putting the point forward. So it is either a snap cut or a thrust with the point at the opponent. “Lifting the saber” is a much more general description of the saber moving up in space as opposed to a specific technique. Sometimes it is used to say the saber is lifted up into a rising cut or it is lifted up and brought down on a target such as a wrist.
I hope that helps clear some things up. Anyway thanks for watching and reading into the manual!
@@thescholar-general5975 Thank you for the thorough explanations. It clarifies a lot.
On the 1st point, single time actions, I'm wondering if the ones in this system are simultaneously defensive. That is, in making the counter cut, are you interposing your blade between you and the opponent's blade such that missing the counter cut doesn't result in you getting hit? To use the krumphau example again, even if the krumphau misses the opponent's hand or arm, it can still knock the opponent's blade off the path of it's cut, thus keeping you safe.
Regarding the 5th point and the issue of which leg is forward, I'm not convinced the left leg is supposed to be forward. It may look that way because the left leg is higher up in the picture, but the rest of the figure's positioning suggests that the right leg should be forward. The cut to the neck looks like a lunge, in which case, right leg forward would maximize reach. This is supported by the fact that the left arm is extended backwards for counterbalance. Doing this would be very unnatural if stepping forward with the left leg. Also, the figure is positioned such that we are looking at his back, which means he is turning to his left. However, you would not turn your body to the left if you're advancing with the left leg. Rather, you turn to the left when stepping with the right leg. Maybe there's a reason for it to be a left leg advance, but when I look at it, right leg forward seems more mechanically sound.
This goes without saying, but I look forward to seeing your interpretation of this system.
@@copyleftclaim7112 I can understand where you are coming from. I think that it may still be the left leg forward here for a couple reasons. If you look the hips in the image it looks like the right hip is shown forward but the forward leg is not connected to it. Additionally, the form is supposed to be circling outward or moving to the outside of the opponents sword arm. So I think that the intention is to step at an angle to the left. The text also states that it is an advance step so my understanding is that the right leg will also follow behind the left to close the distance as opposed to quickly lunging in and and then coming back immediately
At 7:26 in my video review of LK Chen’s Yanlingdao you can see the technique demonstrated to have an idea of how I think it looks. ua-cam.com/video/6Cw-LF_ZzTg/v-deo.html
Man I love your videos Keep the good work, but I understand life outside of providing me UA-cam videos has its priorities lol.
Very stoked to see more of this 👍
Since there aren’t many people studying practical armed historical martial arts in the country this is very appreciated
Thanks for watching!
You are a gentleman and a scholar(-general hehe :P ) to have provided the internet with a translation of this historical dao-shu work that I've never even heard of before and also to provide it for free! Many thanks! :)
It's funny to see the ever-present historical (and modern) martial arts problems of hyper-technical coded terminology for certain moves and postures with strange names that are hard to interpret (perhaps deliberately? :P ), masters fluffing their credentials to legitimize their martial art, and masters being overly fond of writing their instruction manuals in verse for some reason to be present in this text. Oh well, nothing new there that the HEMA and koryu communities haven't already dealt with before! :P
I heard from Great Ming Military blog that there was another early Qing dynasty one-handed saber manual called 十三刀法 attributed to a 王餘佑. I wonder if the manual you translated is in any way related to 十三刀法 or whether they are separate styles since I had trouble finding 十三刀法 online.
Thanks for watching! I have read some of 十三刀法 and I do not think it is related to this text here. The terminology and forms described are quite different.
In the other manual you mentioned with the pictures, is there a place we can access that online to see the pictures associated with the lines of text that are identical/similar to this manual you've translated?
You can try here: facebook.com/chineseswordacademy/photos/a.10153936669597076/10153936669667076/?type=3&mibextid=jf9HGS
Alternatively you can search 金刀譜圖 in google. Of the four images that we have, three of the lines are exactly identical to ones in the text I have translated. Including the line which starts the second partnered form. The fact that the name of the form and the first move of the form is written exactly the same way and the fact that they both come from the forbidden city strongly implies that they are the closely related texts.
@@thescholar-general5975 Thanks so much! I'm excited to experiment with these movements!
@@thescholar-general5975 It's very interesting that the images for the text seem to indicate that the open palm off-hand posture and really broad and wide sweeping moves seen often in modern kung fu/wushu dao taolu are present all the way back in the early 1700s. Some of the footwork in the images also looks kind of wushu/kung fu-like as well. I wonder what the martial rationale behind that is since I've always found those poses to be a bit impractical looking at first sight. Or could it be that using the dao already started to take on a bit of the ritualization, stylization, and Chinese opera DNA seen in modern Chinese martial arts by that time?
Happy to see a new post from you!!!🎉
Sorry it took so long!
That looks great!
Thanks! I hope you try it out with some students!
@@thescholar-general5975 In a fine example of synchronicity, I’d just spoken to my HEMA/SCA/Swordmaker friend about getting a pair of steel dao made!
@@thescholar-general5975 Looking forward to spending time with it before inflicting my mistakes on the younglings!
This is so great. I will share with Martial History Team. 🙏🥋
Thank you!
Finally 😃
老哥对北朝的环首刀感兴趣吗？
我对每一种刀剑感兴趣😅
Good stuff man! Thank you
專業精闢！❤
Awesome!🗿👍🏿
Thanks!
I remember you once commented in Matt's video about bar mace 鞕鐗. I would love a follow up its comparison with sword vs tip heavy blunt weapon in terms of maneuverability, stamina consumption, etc..
Yes, a video on this topic has been on my list for a while now!
Do you know what is a original painting that depict multiple qing soldiers with tie bian and two of them sparing?
@@SonKaneOf I am not sure which painting you are referring to but I would be happy to see it!