There's truly strange thing happened with me: I'm writing a course work in my 3rd year in conservatory as a theorist-musicologist My work is about comparing 3 performances of Monteverdi's L'Orfeo for ones as most authentic (or historically informed, as u said) Imagine my shock, when in the end you showed as example EXACTLY THOSE 3 PERFORMANCES IM WRITING ABOUT
Hahaha!! the intro and Outro music with the false relations 😂 you're great man!! I think exactly the same way about the Orfeo's example! Great vídeo, like all the others!
Nice chapter... But for first time I have a little disagreement with it: you don't talk about Spanish use of the mi contra fa on Polyphony and even best, in tablature instrumental writing! Most probably taken for the oldest franco-flemish tradition, so influential on Spanish renaissance, our music from the period is as much full of this simultaneous false relations as English one if not more! Not to talk, some years later, of Correa de Arauxo's Facultad Organica, sooooo full of marvellous moments like these (and many times signaled in the printing with a pointing hand ☝️as saying "look how bad a boy I am, and that's not a mistake!") So, congrats, as ever, but... A second chapter on that talking of Spanish music? (I would be pleased to help...)
"Fa contra mi, mi contra fa Es diabolus in Musica." Fa against mi, mi against fa Is the devil in Music. There is a T-shirt for you! That is a poem given by Fux in Gradus ad Parnassum. He cites it as a ban on the tritone, at least in strict counterpoint. How do mi and fa comprise the tritone? He gets that from Guido's hexachord system. There were three hexachords, that all used the terms, ut re mi fa sol la. Natural hexachord: C D E F G A ut re mi fa sol la. Hard hexachord: G A B C D E ut re mi fa sol la Soft hexachord: F G A Bb D ut re mi fa sol la In the natural hexachord (C D E F G A), mi is E. In the soft hexachord ( F G A Bb C D), fa is Bb. Thus the tritone, E to Bb is mi contra fa. Or, in the hard hexachord (G A B C D E). mi is B, and in the natural hexachord (C D E F G A) fa is F. Thus, B to F is also mi contra fa. Hope that makes sense. Ancient music theory was striving towards tonality, which is much easier to comprehend, as a system.
I hate this age. O K, time goes on. But what i feel, it is the Age of Many Forsaken (cultural) treasures. Hence I REALLY APPRECIATE Your GRAT MISSION even, iam (i sono profesor di music) as You are as well. Although I know this thnigs, it is so "divertimento", amusing to me, and I hope, many beginners see this. Go ahed! Congrats!
The famous 'lachrimae antiquae' (Dowland) set for gamba consort is a good example for false relations used deliberately as an *old music* feature. The g against g# dissonances are very juicy. They are also handeled very differently by performers, some hide them, some dwell in them, some arrangements even exaggerate it with ornaments or Lute parts.
I love the use of humor and silly animations in your videos. I laughed out loud at some points and was asked what was so funny... I don't think they expected it to be a music theory video. :)
Very good chapter. Thank you. Also Mr. Blow's "Rules for playing a Thourough Bass" (Ms British Museum Add. 34072; Arnold. p. 163 - 172) give very interesting examples of these relations applied to cadences and progressions in continuo playing.
Forgive the long entry, but your video is of great interest to me. I think you touched on something important when you said that these so-called false relations often sound good because of well-crafted lines by the composers. There is a paradox, that one cannot create good music by following the rules, but neither can you do so by ignoring them. Why? The rules have a raison d'etre-they are not arbitary-but they are limited to analyzing what I term "point dissonances", taken out of context from actual music. In real music, we are also hearing those two notes against what came before, and at the same time anticipating the future. I think this may be why J.S. Bach rejected Fux, Rameau, and other theorists, as " too strict", and according to KPE Bach, as "dry mathematical stuff." For example, 'Barofastus' Dream' begins on what today would be called a d minor chord, proceeds to the dominant, and cadences on an unexpected D major-thus the F#. When the soprano voice begins the third bar on F natural, I hear not only the F# to F dissonance, but a return to the original tonality, from 2 bars before, which mitigates the dissonance. In a way, the F# resolves backwards to F. That voice then continues with dotted half notes in today's d minor, F E D C#. Of course they probably heard this in the Dorian mode, and some sounds may have shocked them, but the return to the original scale would still be there, no matter what the modality, and the mind would hear that. To me, the arbitrary dissonances that abounded in the 20th century are ugly, but properly prepared and resolved dissonances are beautiful. Is there any dissonance that could not be subsumed by such a process? Even the Monteverdi C# against c , which is admittedly jarring, is sandwiched between 2 E major chords a bar before and after. The dissonant bar comes out of E, and returns into it. The diminished octave, C# to c, resolves by half steps, in contrary motion, to a major 6th, D to b, and from there E to b, returning to todays E major. WE HEAR CHANGE, AND MOTION, OVER TIME; NOT POINTS AGAINST POINTS. The rules were created by human reason. Rather than blindly follow the rules, we must seek to follow not just the reasons for them, but reason itself. Only then can we know how to lawfully break the rules, not in an anarchistic way, but in the sense of: " I come not to overthrow the law, but to fulfill it." Let me pose a friendly challenge to your readers. Play this chord on the piano (using piano tuners' names). D3 A3 E4 C5 F5. As a point dissonance it sounds ugly. In the music, it is gorgeous. Hint: It occurs 5 measures into a very famous work. You hear it in terms of the imitation in the entire 4 previous measures. Do you know it?
Thank you! It is very interesting .. especially Monteverdian example... actually I thought about it in concern of Italian music too... By the way in the first English example you give these dissonances are not so noticeable because of moments of form where they appear... they belong to different phrases (except last one with B - and Bb)... I think this contextual effect is also very important (maybe even the most important for perception of the semantic quality of interval).
I like the way False Relations sound, and can be found in the Lute music of John Dowland. I enjoy the sense of humor you intersperse in your videos, as they have a similar effect in the didactic subject matter you present as the False Relations have in the music itself.
This video represents and before and an after in my comprehension of musica ficta. The earliest simultaneous false relation I've seen is on Machaut's Kyrie III, with a Fa# written on the triplum and a Fa on the tenor (going to mi and re). Studying music from the 14th and 15th centuries you find a lot of maybe-yes-maybe-not false relations, depending on the ficta you choose. After watching this video I feel more confident when choosing fictas for a false relation. Tuda!!
I am a great fan of renaissance music and literally listened open-mouthed to this riveting video. As a composer, I found the "false relations" hugely interesting. In fact, the part where Orfeo learns Euridyce is dead sounds like Gershwin calling from the far future! Toda raba and keep up the excellent work.
It is better (if I could give advice to You well-developed musician) NOT the half-notes "in tonality alien" false nots are important. Because everything is IN CONTEXT. Hence, the minore - maggore relazione is important F in d -minore, F# in D -maggiore is more informative. Terz, tierze, 3rd. Or, in the renaissance music (better to call it: gothic) the tierce/ terc 3rd relationship is making many chromatic phenomena, like: F maggore, and the continoued melody BUT in A maggiore (C - becomes C#). But in early music is so fascinatnig, mainly at Gesualdo. I (mainly) not used to use individal notes, regardless the tonality or the chord, because music is the FLOW/ movimento (mozio) moto consecutivo. Of course naturalmente, therfore the nuances, moments gli momenti extravaganzi soni pi'u belli. AND there is something, in madrigali in the periode della stilo modonice, (seconda prattica, Monteverdi) dissonant notes are always refer WHAT THE TEXT is saying. "Sogietto cavato della vocaboli". Like in the linguistic: ther is the denotation:It is raining. Just a fact. And there is a connotazione: Fuck, what a pity is raining again. (Emotional meaning). So the music is the second level (chanal) of the expression. It is an other question, how this flase congiuzioni "consteallzioni dell 'armonci" went to the instrumental music firstly intavolazione, tabulatura. Imitation need the precious repetition, sometimes the individual musica accrodi, stimm, is most important (musica ficta, musica "falsa") than the eu-harmonia (prattica) as You demonstrate through W Bryd.
'They were always condemned by the most skillful ones...' Byrd would disagree. He used cross relations *all* the time! Ave Verum Corpus is just one among many instances.
an other very interesting video :-) may it be John Dowland that Thomas Morlay is critisizing in his book (because Dowland present himself in his preface as graduated of the 2 english famous universities, and he said that learned with differents famous europeen masters..) ?
Thanks for this. The Byrd _Ave Verum Corpus_ also contains, though not a false relation, another harsh clash in the penultimate bar, where the bass descends to an Eb against the held D in the tenor.
I have used false relations in my own pieces without knowing the name I now realise. Particularily when in minor one voice moves from the tonic down to the dominant, I might use notes from aeolian, while a secondary voice moves up from the dominant to the tonic by using notes from melodic minor
Doesn't the natural 6th in the moment Orfeo learns she died cause a false relation with the bass? That's obviously less harsh, but that's still something
well I'll admit they don't sound crunchy or harsh at all to me. Maybe I've got cloth ears but I don't think so. Maybe my modern ears are now used to these type of 'clashes'. ?? We know that over the centuries we have gradually learnt to accept a lot of intervals that would have sounded appalling to earlier ears. also It seems to me that the composers wouldn't have written them if they didn't like to sound.
Fascinating! Could these cadences be the true origin of the 7#9 chord found in blues and jazz centuries later ?? Could you give references to these cadences in Purcell's music, as you mentioned? Thank you very much!!
I don't believe that the 7#9 comes from this. I think the most accepted theory is that in west African music (which blues and jazz evolved from), pentatonic scales were used and these scales included a "neutral third" (somewhere between a major and minor third.) The slaves who were brought over from west Africa tried to approximate this neutral third on western instruments (for example bending the minor third up on guitar or wind instruments.) I believe that this mixture of the major and minor thirds found its way into jazz harmony with the 7#9 chord (which contains both the major and minor third.)
@@chris_outh yeah you're right, this is also what I learnt. But I also read that the old christian english music was really influencal on thé birth of Blues so... Anyway, to my ears, thé effect in music is quite similar.
Oh that was wickedly delicious. I kept on thinking of how many times Beethoven would crunch out dissonance in order to make an emotional point. There was Mozart's "musical joke" that also came to mind. He did something along these lines, I think, for a string trio or quartet? Loved this show and those great examples of dissonance.
fred houpt Beethoven uses repeated dissonance so commonly at climaxes like before the motive of Beethoven’s Fifth turns into single notes. He especially loves to use diminished seventh chords for that exact purpose among others such as these: Cadences, especially in minor Switching to the parallel minor in a single chord(in this case, he often uses the diminished seventh of the dominant)
Fascinating and compelling study, like everything I have heard of your videos, which are many! thank you! To further complicate things, how do the tuning systems of the time relate to and change how these false relations sound? (I'm not able to draw any conclusions, by ear, as to which tunings are used in the examples you have here).
So pleased to find you've done a video touching on some early English composers! Although I was sad that you didn't mention my absolute favourite, Orlando Gibbons. There's a lovely and startling example of false relations in one of his keyboard preludes, a short 4-part 9-bar affair (piece no. 4 in "Musica Britannica XX Orlando Gibbons Keyboard Music"). In bar 7 there is a G sharp in the tenor while the alto jumps from an E to a G natural (totally unprepared!) The G natural then resolves down a semitone to F sharp while the G sharp resolves a semitone up to A, which somehow makes it even nicer.
I enjoy all your videos. But since I often play music from the Fitzwilliam Virginal Book, this was especially interesting to me. And it helps explain why I'm so drawn to that music. Thank you!
I like Zarlino’s terminology “nonharmonic relation.” But the Maj3-5 progression, a 14th-century standard, is still recommended by Bermuda around 1550, even in two voices.
Listening with pleasure. Maybe you will give an analysis of "Moro, Lasso, Al Mio Duolo" by Carlo Gesualdo? I had a choral director who programmed it for a concert. It seems to be one of a kind.
Thanks for the video! Question: What would be your opinion about the G vs G# in the ending of "Piagn'e sospira e quand'i caldi raggi" from Monteverdi's 4th book of madrigals? It's a repetitive homophonic E ¿major/minor? chord over the words "E inrileggendo poi le proprie note", and the Canto part has a G# while the Tenor part has a G. It's on Amadino's (1615) edition but not in Pierre Phalese (also 1615), and given that Monteverdi used to write this kind of lines (maybe not "that" harsh) my doubt is if could be an edition mistake in Amadino or a "voluntary correction" in Pierre Phalese. By now my approach is to use G# on both voices, contrary to Malipiero's edition that removes the sharp from the Canto part (P. Phalese version), but maybe it's none of the above and G/G# must sound toghether... any idea is well received.
After watching this video I realized that the hookline of APP's song 'Psychobabble' contains a false relation, too, since its chord progression is A-G-C--A. Now I understand why it sounds so intriguing and why it was so hard for me as a kid to figure it out by ear.
Bravo et merci ! There is also an augmented 4th at the beginning of Barafostus' Dreame (F => H in the tenor, bars 1-2). Great video and channel, many many thanks!
William Tisdall's "Pavana Chromatica" in the Fitzwilliam Virginal Book (II) is a delightful stroll through false relations--perhaps one of the most beautiful examples of their use. Thanks for the video!
By and large, Tallis is the composer who uses simultaneous false relations the most, e.g. in the 40 voices motet "Spem in Alium", where it has really an agonizing effect!
The 1 dislike is probably Zarlino.
Actually, it is most definitely Morley. It must have been his pet peeve.
ahahaha!
😂😂😂
There's truly strange thing happened with me:
I'm writing a course work in my 3rd year in conservatory as a theorist-musicologist
My work is about comparing 3 performances of Monteverdi's L'Orfeo for ones as most authentic (or historically informed, as u said)
Imagine my shock, when in the end you showed as example EXACTLY THOSE 3 PERFORMANCES IM WRITING ABOUT
Hahaha!! the intro and Outro music with the false relations 😂 you're great man!! I think exactly the same way about the Orfeo's example! Great vídeo, like all the others!
I had to listen to the Intro many times, loved it.
Best youtube channel ever.
Nice chapter... But for first time I have a little disagreement with it: you don't talk about Spanish use of the mi contra fa on Polyphony and even best, in tablature instrumental writing! Most probably taken for the oldest franco-flemish tradition, so influential on Spanish renaissance, our music from the period is as much full of this simultaneous false relations as English one if not more!
Not to talk, some years later, of Correa de Arauxo's Facultad Organica, sooooo full of marvellous moments like these (and many times signaled in the printing with a pointing hand ☝️as saying "look how bad a boy I am, and that's not a mistake!")
So, congrats, as ever, but... A second chapter on that talking of Spanish music? (I would be pleased to help...)
You are absolutely right! thanks for this addition. There is no good reason for neglecting Spanish music in this context!
Completely agree. Look at Cabanilles' Pasacalle for organ, it's plenty of simultaneous false relations
I've just spent 17 minutes and 45 seconds watching a music theory video with open mouth
Everytime EMS uploads a video i feel like it's Christmas lol, thanks for the wonderful video and yes, a Mi Contra Fa shirt would be awesome ^^
The introduction is absolutely brilliant! You are pure treasure
Zarlino was the one to hit dislike button for this lovely video
Incredibly great! Thanks.
I’ve become addicted to simultaneous false relations in Tallis, Gombert, Ockeghem, and the like. They’re so satisfyingly crunchy to listen to.
1:14 That's the beginning of Björk's Medúlla album ua-cam.com/video/4lqbyAjnMKY/v-deo.html
I would buy a shirt with "Mi Contra Fa" on it. Dolla dolla bill y'all.
"Fa contra mi, mi contra fa
Es diabolus in Musica."
Fa against mi, mi against fa
Is the devil in Music.
There is a T-shirt for you!
That is a poem given by Fux in Gradus ad Parnassum. He cites it as a ban on the tritone, at least in strict counterpoint. How do mi and fa comprise the tritone?
He gets that from Guido's hexachord system.
There were three hexachords, that all used the terms, ut re mi fa sol la.
Natural hexachord: C D E F G A ut re mi fa sol la.
Hard hexachord: G A B C D E ut re mi fa sol la
Soft hexachord: F G A Bb D ut re mi fa sol la
In the natural hexachord (C D E F G A), mi is E. In the soft hexachord ( F G A Bb C D), fa is Bb. Thus the tritone, E to Bb is mi contra fa.
Or, in the hard hexachord (G A B C D E). mi is B, and in the natural hexachord (C D E F G A) fa is F. Thus, B to F is also mi contra fa.
Hope that makes sense. Ancient music theory was striving towards tonality, which is much easier to comprehend, as a system.
Me too! What a great idea!
Mr. Rotem you are positively hilarious. I laughed so hard so many times.. truly delightful and enlightening!! Thank you!
Elam-- Your voice is SO beautiful.
I find myself saying this in every video but this chanel and website is an absolute gem on the internet
Very nice hypothesis/approach on the #6 in the 'e morta' passage. Thanks for sharing!
Eduardo Jahnke I agre, But why not an A minor instead of A major under "morta"?...it could change to major afterwords, in order to resolve on D major.
I hate this age. O K, time goes on. But what i feel, it is the Age of Many Forsaken (cultural) treasures. Hence I REALLY APPRECIATE Your GRAT MISSION even, iam (i sono profesor di music) as You are as well. Although I know this thnigs, it is so "divertimento", amusing to me, and I hope, many beginners see this. Go ahed! Congrats!
The famous 'lachrimae antiquae' (Dowland) set for gamba consort is a good example for false relations used deliberately as an *old music* feature. The g against g# dissonances are very juicy. They are also handeled very differently by performers, some hide them, some dwell in them, some arrangements even exaggerate it with ornaments or Lute parts.
I love the use of humor and silly animations in your videos. I laughed out loud at some points and was asked what was so funny... I don't think they expected it to be a music theory video. :)
Very good chapter. Thank you. Also Mr. Blow's "Rules for playing a Thourough Bass" (Ms British Museum Add. 34072; Arnold. p. 163 - 172) give very interesting examples of these relations applied to cadences and progressions in continuo playing.
Absolutely correct. It might be the only continuo treatise that mentions this phenomenon. I'll add this as a note in the footnotes page. Thanks.
Forgive the long entry, but your video is of great interest to me. I think you touched on something important when you said that these so-called false relations often sound good because of well-crafted lines by the composers.
There is a paradox, that one cannot create good music by following the rules, but neither can you do so by ignoring them. Why? The rules have a raison d'etre-they are not arbitary-but they are limited to analyzing what I term "point dissonances", taken out of context from actual music. In real music, we are also hearing those two notes against what came before, and at the same time anticipating the future.
I think this may be why J.S. Bach rejected Fux, Rameau, and other theorists, as " too strict", and according to KPE Bach, as "dry mathematical stuff."
For example, 'Barofastus' Dream' begins on what today would be called a d minor chord, proceeds to the dominant, and cadences on an unexpected D major-thus the F#. When the soprano voice begins the third bar on F natural, I hear not only the F# to F dissonance, but a return to the original tonality, from 2 bars before, which mitigates the dissonance. In a way, the F# resolves backwards to F. That voice then continues with dotted half notes in today's d minor, F E D C#.
Of course they probably heard this in the Dorian mode, and some sounds may have shocked them, but the return to the original scale would still be there, no matter what the modality, and the mind would hear that.
To me, the arbitrary dissonances that abounded in the 20th century are ugly, but properly prepared and resolved dissonances are beautiful. Is there any dissonance that could not be subsumed by such a process?
Even the Monteverdi C# against c , which is admittedly jarring, is sandwiched between 2 E major chords a bar before and after. The dissonant bar comes out of E, and returns into it. The diminished octave, C# to c, resolves by half steps, in contrary motion, to a major 6th, D to b, and from there E to b, returning to todays E major. WE HEAR CHANGE, AND MOTION, OVER TIME; NOT POINTS AGAINST POINTS.
The rules were created by human reason. Rather than blindly follow the rules, we must seek to follow not just the reasons for them, but reason itself. Only then can we know how to lawfully break the rules, not in an anarchistic way, but in the sense of: " I come not to overthrow the law, but to fulfill it."
Let me pose a friendly challenge to your readers. Play this chord on the piano (using piano tuners' names). D3 A3 E4 C5 F5. As a point dissonance it sounds ugly. In the music, it is gorgeous.
Hint: It occurs 5 measures into a very famous work. You hear it in terms of the imitation in the entire 4 previous measures. Do you know it?
I jumped in joy when I saw this upload, thank you so much!
I was so looking forward to some Purcell examples when he was mentioned *sob*
Great video!
The last cadence of my dearest my fairest though
There is chromaticism in his "cold song", from King Arthur
Thank you! It is very interesting .. especially Monteverdian example... actually I thought about it in concern of Italian music too... By the way in the first English example you give these dissonances are not so noticeable because of moments of form where they appear... they belong to different phrases (except last one with B - and Bb)... I think this contextual effect is also very important (maybe even the most important for perception of the semantic quality of interval).
Out of curiosity, do you like any modern music? I'd love to know what you dig.
I like the way False Relations sound, and can be found in the Lute music of John Dowland. I enjoy the sense of humor you intersperse in your videos, as they have a similar effect in the didactic subject matter you present as the False Relations have in the music itself.
Good that you mention lute music, because the intabulations leave no doubt regarding possible ficta interventions!
You have a beautiful singing voice, as well as your numerous other talents!
This video represents and before and an after in my comprehension of musica ficta. The earliest simultaneous false relation I've seen is on Machaut's Kyrie III, with a Fa# written on the triplum and a Fa on the tenor (going to mi and re).
Studying music from the 14th and 15th centuries you find a lot of maybe-yes-maybe-not false relations, depending on the ficta you choose. After watching this video I feel more confident when choosing fictas for a false relation. Tuda!!
Isn’t there a pretty striking one in the Angus Dei as well?
I think I remember hearing "English cadences" for the first time during Rowan Atkinson's Medieval comedy skits.
Fantastic-so well done, so SO interesting, funny, smart...THANK YOU!
14:16 I like very much this chord
I am a great fan of renaissance music and literally listened open-mouthed to this riveting video. As a composer, I found the "false relations" hugely interesting. In fact, the part where Orfeo learns Euridyce is dead sounds like Gershwin calling from the far future! Toda raba and keep up the excellent work.
7:02 Good news, everybody! Professor Farnsworth likes Byrd...
These videos just get better and better. Thank you 😀 👏
O nata lux baritone was one of my perennial responsibilities at a prior church job. (Always the Sunday before Ash Wednesday, in the thick of carnival)
Thanks Elam you made my day
Would've thought the Byrd O Salutaris Hostia a6 would've been an important addition!
Absolutely - crazy example
Haha, exactly to avoid these discussions, I'm happy with the modern -- i.e., baroque -- music, where these things are the cornerstones :)
Ok, after bingewatching your videos, I have to install some harpsichord sounds on my keyboard. Maybe some temperaments as well?
It is better (if I could give advice to You well-developed musician) NOT the half-notes "in tonality alien" false nots are important. Because everything is IN CONTEXT. Hence, the minore - maggore relazione is important F in d -minore, F# in D -maggiore is more informative. Terz, tierze, 3rd. Or, in the renaissance music (better to call it: gothic) the tierce/ terc 3rd relationship is making many chromatic phenomena, like: F maggore, and the continoued melody BUT in A maggiore (C - becomes C#). But in early music is so fascinatnig, mainly at Gesualdo. I (mainly) not used to use individal notes, regardless the tonality or the chord, because music is the FLOW/ movimento (mozio) moto consecutivo. Of course naturalmente, therfore the nuances, moments gli momenti extravaganzi soni pi'u belli. AND there is something, in madrigali in the periode della stilo modonice, (seconda prattica, Monteverdi) dissonant notes are always refer WHAT THE TEXT is saying. "Sogietto cavato della vocaboli". Like in the linguistic: ther is the denotation:It is raining. Just a fact. And there is a connotazione: Fuck, what a pity is raining again. (Emotional meaning). So the music is the second level (chanal) of the expression. It is an other question, how this flase congiuzioni "consteallzioni dell 'armonci" went to the instrumental music firstly intavolazione, tabulatura. Imitation need the precious repetition, sometimes the individual musica accrodi, stimm, is most important (musica ficta, musica "falsa") than the eu-harmonia (prattica) as You demonstrate through W Bryd.
The intro music made me giggle
'They were always condemned by the most skillful ones...'
Byrd would disagree. He used cross relations *all* the time! Ave Verum Corpus is just one among many instances.
an other very interesting video :-) may it be John Dowland that Thomas Morlay is critisizing in his book (because Dowland present himself in his preface as graduated of the 2 english famous universities, and he said that learned with differents famous europeen masters..) ?
Great material, thank you! Although there is a small spelling mistake: Morley (not Morely) :)
Thanks for this. The Byrd _Ave Verum Corpus_ also contains, though not a false relation, another harsh clash in the penultimate bar, where the bass descends to an Eb against the held D in the tenor.
I have used false relations in my own pieces without knowing the name I now realise.
Particularily when in minor one voice moves from the tonic down to the dominant, I might use notes from aeolian, while a secondary voice moves up from the dominant to the tonic by using notes from melodic minor
Doesn't the natural 6th in the moment Orfeo learns she died cause a false relation with the bass? That's obviously less harsh, but that's still something
well I'll admit they don't sound crunchy or harsh at all to me. Maybe I've got cloth ears but I don't think so. Maybe my modern ears are now used to these type of 'clashes'. ?? We know that over the centuries we have gradually learnt to accept a lot of intervals that would have sounded appalling to earlier ears.
also It seems to me that the composers wouldn't have written them if they didn't like to sound.
I suggest you to listen Alonso Mudarra's 'Fantasia X' where false relations suits the most beautifully to my ears
Fux mentions this in Study of counterpoint a priori. Thank you for confirming what I suspected mi-contra-fa meant!
Fascinating! Could these cadences be the true origin of the 7#9 chord found in blues and jazz centuries later ??
Could you give references to these cadences in Purcell's music, as you mentioned? Thank you very much!!
I don't believe that the 7#9 comes from this. I think the most accepted theory is that in west African music (which blues and jazz evolved from), pentatonic scales were used and these scales included a "neutral third" (somewhere between a major and minor third.) The slaves who were brought over from west Africa tried to approximate this neutral third on western instruments (for example bending the minor third up on guitar or wind instruments.) I believe that this mixture of the major and minor thirds found its way into jazz harmony with the 7#9 chord (which contains both the major and minor third.)
@@chris_outh yeah you're right, this is also what I learnt. But I also read that the old christian english music was really influencal on thé birth of Blues so... Anyway, to my ears, thé effect in music is quite similar.
@@vannave5761 yeah, you're right. The effects are quite similiar
One of your best episodes. Your brilliant channel might trigger a renaissance of renaissance music in the near future. thanks
So we discover that Coltrane's Giant Steps is based on false relations!
I love the clever humor! And the learning of course!
#6 for the win !!
Instant subscribe. These videos have it all.
A most horrible and crunchy dissonance that hurts so good.
Didn't know there's jazz in the Renaissance.
For a modern take, there is a lovely false relation in the second movement of Tippett's Concerto for Double String Orchestra.
Brilliant video as usual.
Caviar with a cup of gentian tea.
Esa disonancia de octava disminuida me ha recordado al efecto de un #9 en un dominante en musica moderna, o un toque blues
Beta zarlino could never live up to chad Tallis
I love Renaissance music , thank you for this wonderful video!😃👋
Obrigado! Fiquei horrorizado!
Cross relations are the highest order of harmony. 😈
Oh that was wickedly delicious. I kept on thinking of how many times Beethoven would crunch out dissonance in order to make an emotional point. There was Mozart's "musical joke" that also came to mind. He did something along these lines, I think, for a string trio or quartet? Loved this show and those great examples of dissonance.
fred houpt Beethoven uses repeated dissonance so commonly at climaxes like before the motive of Beethoven’s Fifth turns into single notes. He especially loves to use diminished seventh chords for that exact purpose among others such as these:
Cadences, especially in minor
Switching to the parallel minor in a single chord(in this case, he often uses the diminished seventh of the dominant)
I love your blob graphics!
Appropriately horrible! :)
Fascinating and compelling study, like everything I have heard of your videos, which are many! thank you! To further complicate things, how do the tuning systems of the time relate to and change how these false relations sound? (I'm not able to draw any conclusions, by ear, as to which tunings are used in the examples you have here).
What is the name of the cadence with the major and minor third simultaneously? I jnow it has a name but I can't remember it...
Perhaps you are referring to the, "7#9 chord found in blues and jazz centuries later,'' which @vannave6571 refers to above.
false relation is renaissance jazz
Zarlino didn´t like this...
wonderful. all hail those dissonances!
Liked before watching 👍
16:14 sounds a little bit like blues
You sing very well.
0:11 woooaahhhahah
7#9 chords anyone?
So pleased to find you've done a video touching on some early English composers! Although I was sad that you didn't mention my absolute favourite, Orlando Gibbons. There's a lovely and startling example of false relations in one of his keyboard preludes, a short 4-part 9-bar affair (piece no. 4 in "Musica Britannica XX Orlando Gibbons Keyboard Music"). In bar 7 there is a G sharp in the tenor while the alto jumps from an E to a G natural (totally unprepared!) The G natural then resolves down a semitone to F sharp while the G sharp resolves a semitone up to A, which somehow makes it even nicer.
I enjoy all your videos. But since I often play music from the Fitzwilliam Virginal Book, this was especially interesting to me. And it helps explain why I'm so drawn to that music. Thank you!
I like Zarlino’s terminology “nonharmonic relation.” But the Maj3-5 progression, a 14th-century standard, is still recommended by Bermuda around 1550, even in two voices.
Listening with pleasure. Maybe you will give an analysis of "Moro, Lasso, Al Mio Duolo" by Carlo Gesualdo? I had a choral director who programmed it for a concert. It seems to be one of a kind.
Thanks for the video!
Question: What would be your opinion about the G vs G# in the ending of "Piagn'e sospira e quand'i caldi raggi" from Monteverdi's 4th book of madrigals? It's a repetitive homophonic E ¿major/minor? chord over the words "E inrileggendo poi le proprie note", and the Canto part has a G# while the Tenor part has a G. It's on Amadino's (1615) edition but not in Pierre Phalese (also 1615), and given that Monteverdi used to write this kind of lines (maybe not "that" harsh) my doubt is if could be an edition mistake in Amadino or a "voluntary correction" in Pierre Phalese. By now my approach is to use G# on both voices, contrary to Malipiero's edition that removes the sharp from the Canto part (P. Phalese version), but maybe it's none of the above and G/G# must sound toghether... any idea is well received.
Thank you Elam
After watching this video I realized that the hookline of APP's song 'Psychobabble' contains a false relation, too, since its chord progression is A-G-C--A. Now I understand why it sounds so intriguing and why it was so hard for me as a kid to figure it out by ear.
Wow! Brilliant and funny and informative...THank you very much!
Dear Elam,
I hear a F major buffer chord at 3:08 and there is a D in second voice, so it should sound as a sextachord.
Am I right?
Wonderful!
Listening to the given examples, it almost seems as if a piece becomes "modern sounding" when it employs false relations. Interesting stuff!
Bravo et merci ! There is also an augmented 4th at the beginning of Barafostus' Dreame (F => H in the tenor, bars 1-2). Great video and channel, many many thanks!
Coincidently, I was exactly wondering about that in the previous video at the end of Palestrina's "Osculetur Me".
Love this!
ganda
Don't believe im addicted to this vids u guys are amazing 🌞🤗👑🧙♂️
🎼
William Tisdall's "Pavana Chromatica" in the Fitzwilliam Virginal Book (II) is a delightful stroll through false relations--perhaps one of the most beautiful examples of their use. Thanks for the video!
As a tenor who has sung many false relations, I applaud this wonderful overview. Cheers from sunny Vienna, Scott
By and large, Tallis is the composer who uses simultaneous false relations the most, e.g. in the 40 voices motet "Spem in Alium", where it has really an agonizing effect!