The Evolution of Roguelike Design - How Rogue led to FTL, Spelunky, and So Many More ~ Design Doc
Вставка
- Опубліковано 16 січ 2019
- How did we get from Rogue to the explosion of different styles of games that we call Roguelikes? Let's talk about the Berlin Interpretation of Roguelikes and the tweaks developers have made over the years to bring us to where we are today. LIST OF GAMES BELOW!
Support Design Doc on Patreon and help us release videos faster: / designdoc
Follow us on Twitter: / warbot400
LIST OF GAMES SHOWN:
Dead Cells
Enter the Gungeon
Rogue Legacy
Spelunky
FTL
Heart & Slash
Hades
Binding of Isaac
Crpyt of the Necrodancer
Rogue
Dungeons of Dredmore
Slay the Spire
Ancient Domains of Mystery
Mystery Dungeon: Shiren the Wanderer
Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup
Moonlighter
Darkest Dungeon
Toejam & Earl
Nuclear Throne
Ziggurat
Hand of Fate
Downwell
Into the Breach
Solitairica
Invisible Inc.
Risk of Rain - Ігри
...wait, there was actually a Berlin conference to define what is a rogue-like?
The League of Nations (the precursor to the United Nations) was created to define roguelikes
Yes
Your invitation must have gotten lost in the mail. Mine was too.
Yes. And they concluded if the game isn't a straight up reskin of one other game, then its no longer a part of the entire fucking genre.
Why no one gives a fuck what they think.
@@Wylie288 It only feels that way if you have never played any of them. Roguelikes in the traditional sense are about as different from each other as games of the same genre should be. And they have a few subgenres (hacklikes, bands, puzzle roguelikes, broughlikes, etc.)
Generally the BI was aimed at people already knowing what roguelikes were, they wanted just to formalize that. So it makes much more sense if you did play the Canon. But even then, it contains lots of silly stuff. Like too much weight given to permadeath, roguelikes in the traditional sense are not really about permadeath, it is just how good players like to play them, which lead to all the confusion. The attempt did fail, and it was the last serious attempt to define roguelikes.
Every day we stray further from Rogue
As long as it doesn't stall like the FPS genre, it should be fine.
@@gustavowadaslopes2479 I'd rather the stall then allow that which does not belong. Allowing games like Isaac, Gungeon and games of that vein is like allowing Doom to be called an RPG.
What genre are we calling Ultima Underworld these days?
@@Theraot Crawl-em-up.
@@joefadda578 You sound pretty far up your own ass, man.
It's probably worth pointing out that FTL's real-time combat allows you to pause and plan your actions, and has basically everything tied to one cooldown or another. It can be rapid (shield regeneration, the rhythm of crew combat) or lengthy (weapon and subsystem recharge, FTL jumps), but when you combine it with the ability to pause combat, you have the same ability to precisely plan and execute on plans as in turn-based combat. (Assuming nothing goes wrong, but that's as much of a barrier in turn-based roguelikes.)
For me FTL feels nothing like a roguelike, granted, I still play Nethack.
What other roguelikes did you play before it? I couldn't really get into the game, I didn't really like it and coming from nethack it played nothing like a roguelike to me. Have a good day. @Zwenk Wiel
I don't know really what's my definition of a roguelike, I also don't like constraining definitions, but what I really know is that If I play Nethack or DCSS and then Spelunky I have a hard time telling they are similar and I think you'll agree on that. @Zwenk Wiel
Like you said one is a platformer, the other one is a dungeon crawler, they don't look the same, they don't play the same and don't even feel the same. Granted, they are both video games :p You can stretch a concept so much. Tetris has permadeath and each run is randomly generated, is it a roguelike?
Do a test, like I did, take somebody who doesn't know what a roguelike is. Make them play Nethack (with a tileset if you prefer) and then Spelunky. Ask them if they feel they played the same genre.
By the way, the creators of Rogue never called their game a Roguelike :p Cheers
@Zwenk Wiel
No not exactly, but very similar. The term FPS is applied to games that are pretty similar no? But I agree with you that the term "roguelike" is useless. It's nothing but a marketing term to try to connect games that sometimes don't have much in common. It's not much more than a selling point. Cheers! @Zwenk Wiel
Your interpretation of "non-modal" is incorrect. The difference between "every action available from the start" (as you spoke) and "every action available at any point" (as it is in the text of the Berlin Interpretation) is a subtle but significant. The first implies everything is unlocked from the start, while the second implies there is only a single mode from which all interactions with the game world happen.
so it's not like "everything is unlocked/available" and more like the game won't suddenly turn into mario kart from the usual format.
right?
@@ZxCrono Right. Deus Ex: Mankind Divided has hacking game mode separate from its normal stealthy-shooty game mode. JRPGs have a battle mode separate from its adventury-explory mode. Those are modal games.
@@elheber I wonder how far this goes then, would getting in a car in GTA count as a new mode as far as being modal goes?
you are technically changing movement types, but you aren't really changing the level or end goal like a hard transition between battles/overworld modes.
@@ZxCrono You can't use potions if you don't have them in Rogue, just like you can't drive if you don't have a car in GTA. In other words, you always have the ability to use a car, even if you don't have one at the moment. So no violation there. However, there are parts of GTA games that force the player into a special mode (e.g. an RC chopper or bowling minigame) and those do count as modal.
@@elheber That is how I was thinking as well.
so the disconnect from "regular" play is what matters.
so if bowling, for example, was made into just a normal action able to be performed anywhere, then that wouldn't necessarily be a different mode. But if you enter a minigame that bars you from doing anything else, that would?
This is one of the best videos you've made so far that I recall. You've made your research, analysis and shared it with your knowledge. Keep it like this, Doc!
Fucking hell yeah man. This is what I need after an 14h shift
Fun games everyone might want to check out: Dwarf Fortress, Cataclysm: Dark Days Ahead, and Caves of Qud.
This is a really really good video. Well done!
Thanks dude! Love your videos too.
Watch both you guys!
It's facinating seeing how humble of a start rougelikes had, but I am glad developers never fear to experiment and try to bend the rules.
Also, on the part about progress. Rougelikes has a very unique way of handling progress. You may have to start at the beginning, but every death unlocks something new. Whether it's the galactic currency in Enter the gungeon to buy items for future runs, or new items and charachters in risk of rain. Progress is more determined by how much you have unlocked, rather than how far you've come.
It gives the genre this immeasurable level of replayibilty and makes you want to do just 1 more run to see what more you can discover!
Edit: roguelites
No. A roguelike is permadeath by definition. If it isnt then its not based on rogue. If its not based on rogue its not a "roguelike." if it has quazi-permadeath wherein your next character inherits some loot/traits but otherwise still follows the "rogue formula" then its a "roguelite." People like you are the reason games like rogue legacy count by general census as "roguelike" while games that are actual roguelikes are on the decline. By your same ideologies Yugioh forbidden memories is an "RPG" "because there's storyline and character progression." By your same ideologies games like halo and red dead redemption are both "doomlikes" "cause you shoot stuff." Thats stupid.
Well, Enter The Gungeon, as many others such as TBOI, just unlock new itens, so permadeath keeps the same.
I do agree Roguelites are those with a Quazi-permadeath tho.
@@joefadda578
@@gustavowadaslopes2479 Enter the Gungeon, TBOI are not roguelikes. Roguelikes emphasize strategy, furthermore they've got the quasi-permadeath thing where its not inherent permadeath on the grounds you're unlocking new and more powerful items
@@joefadda578 Does Tales of Maj'eyal count as a roguelite?
@@ArkRiley Not quite. It doubles, if not triples down on every other aspect that would make a game similar to rogue. Its actually got an emphasis on strategy, your movement, your playstyle your every action matters. I'd put it in the thin grey area between "lite" and "like". To put in either category just feels "vaguely wrong"
I honestly feel this is my favorite youtube channel. Seriously man, great stuff.
This was an excellent video, the presentation was perfect! Roguelikes are my favorite genre, and it's always interesting to see how a game takes and removes previously thought "key" elements. I don't know of any other genre with games that can change in so many ways yet still evoke the same feelings of discovery and accomplishment as other titles.
This is a very interesting video and a well thoughtout disscution and analasys of the roguelike genre as a whole. Really makes you think about roguelike as a whole and what differents between the different titles within this genre.
Nice run-through. I like how you visually recapped most of the episode at the end just by showing the animation of the Berlin Interpretation wheel changing around again.
What makes these games shine is curiosity and the sense of exploration as well as equally the sense of experimentation and depth.
This is just a high quality, entertaining video all around, keep it up!
Thank you for putting in some footage of Ziggurat!
thank you, was trying to figure out what the game was
Great video !!! 10/10 I was looking for a great video analysis on rogue likes
Non-modal gameplay as I've understood it over the years is more referring to 'everything takes place in one overarching thing - you don't enter a different game system to deal with combat vs navigating environments as you might in a JRPG - where you have an exploration mode, a battle mode, and so forth - rather than ability upgrades. It's about not putting shops in a seperate menu interface, instead having you go to pick up items from the floor and then paying when interacting with the shop keeper, as in Spelunky, Nethack, or even some Zelda games, even after double checking how the Berlin Interpretation phrases things about weather some abilities tied to certain pieces of equipment, even after double checking the Berlin Interpretation.
(Huh. Weird to see it state itself as a definition, iirc I'm sure most of the authors of it I've heard speak about it deny it was ever intended to define Roguelikes (Usually while also regretting it's existence, iirc various podcasts) - Though it does explicitly state in it that it shouldn't discourage experimentation but instead simple define what aspects of game design the conference was looking at. Though... Not all of the 'canon' of the Roguelike genre as defined by the Berlin Interpretation fit the Berlin Interpretation, even just the high importance factors. The entire cluster of bands are defined in the Berlin Interpretation as not fitting non-modal gameplay, while citing them as canon to the genre. Weather or not it's a definition - It absolutely cannot be interpreted as trying to exclude games that don't 100% fit within it, or one of the games it cites as being part of the roguelike canon wouldn't be a roguelike)
This might be just me, and I don't mean this to disparage the game, but I struggle to see The Binding of Isaac as a Roguelike. Spelunky? Absolutely zero issues with it, I'll clarify it's a platformer while being a Roguelike when discussing it, not because I think that makes it less of a roguelike but so people know what to expect, but when I was playing it? It felt every bit as Roguelike as the traditional roguelikes I was playing at the time, but Isaac? Feels more like a love child between The Legend of Zelda and twin stick shooters such as Smash TV, with the roguelike aspects - the procedural generation and pills - being more marginal to my experience of the game. It doesn't feel like I'm exploiting systems and how the physics of this world work the same way it does when going through Nethack, Brogue, or Spelunky. That you're also not up against the clock like you are in Spelunky in the form of the ghost, or FTL in the form of the imperial fleet, or Hand of Fate in the form of a traditional food clock probably doesn't help that feeling for me.
I think non-modal is kinda one of the reason why roguelikes can be quite confusing for new comers. Even with graphics and even mouse support, having to allow every action to be take in the same mode means that you will usually get an ultra long command list of all the actions and it takes ages to understand everything, or even being aware of the existence of a command.
And for the ultimate opposite of non-modal design, JRPG probably isn't a good example, but old webgames (aka those that runs on a web browser and only uses CGI/PHP for every actions) since those usually got tons of different interfaces for you to deal with different mechanics.
@@FlameRat_YehLon Brogue really helps by streamlining commands, a ton. Instead of 'z'apping a wand and 'q'uaffing a potion you, instead 'u'se everything aside from stuff you 'e'quip instead. (And it has full mouse support with menus, meaning every command can be done with the mouse)
To me some these games are more like berzerk/smash tv clones without extra lives.
They simplify roguelikes too much to even deserve the name. Randomization and permadeath is basically what’s left. And the 2nd feature especially can be trivially added to any game by just removing checkpoint loading or reducing the number of lives to one. Change order of some stages, randomize enemy placement and now your Super Mario is a roguelike!
@@noop9k Yes, I too struggle to figure out how (NES - The modern bag system makes this less true) Tetris doesn't fit how the term roguelike has come to be used, despite clearly not being a roguelike in any meaningful sense.
This is my favorite video on this beloved topic. Well done and brilliantly explained. Interestingly, I find myself coming back to the more classic roguelikes the most. So, the closer to the Berlin interpretation, to more joy and long-term entertainment I get out of them. As a mobile-only gamer, my all-time fav roguelikes are Rogue Touch, Pathos: Nethack Codex, (vanilla) Pixel Dungeon, and Brogue (on iPad).
Before I even begin watching the video.
Thank you
Chill Naga's Den you're absolutely right. I'm ashamed to say that I just subscribed today.
@@Kooma4Yew1600 Only found him a couple of weeks ago, myself .
Holy crap. You showed Dungeons of Dreadmor! That game gets forgotten in conversations about roguelikes.
I think the name is the issue. Non-Berliners use 'roguelike' as broadly as most people use FPS. Whereas Berliners use it more like 'doom clone'. So to Berliners, hearing people use roguelike for everything sounds as weird as calling Overwatch, Halo and Arma 'doom clones'. -clone was fine at the beginning but FPS sprang up to to differentiate game very much like doom, and games with doom-like elements in first person and shooting but otherwise their own thing. Maybe a new one will pop up for roguelites but I doubt it. Though rogueclone wound sound cool it would be even more restrictive. (edited for auto correct typos)
Damn straight. I'm not from Berlin, but as far as the roguelike definition goes I'm one hell of a "Berliner". We really need to get all the pseudo-roguelikes like Isaac, spelunky, Rogue Legacy and all that under their own title. "Roguelite" technically "works" but its already used to refer to roguelikes that specifically have quasi-permadeath, wherein your character inherits part of what their predecessor had. I'd suggest rougelike cause they're not roguelikes, they're often mixed up with roguelikes and the term rougelike is already a misspelling of roguelike anyhow. But there, in the misspelling the issue with that title arises. Literally because it is a misspelling of the original genre most people wont recognize it as "separate from roguelikes."
@@joefadda578 itsna spectrum, so no matter where we draw the lines there will always be edge cases. Spelunky and FTL sort of have progress but not in the way rogue legacy does. You sort of reset to 0 on restarting but more variety is unlocked or shortcuts are available though limit the 'true' ending. I like the term rogueclones for the stricter side of berliner-roguelikes, roguelite for the softer interpretations and roguelike being used for the middle third or so of these spectrum but given the derisive implications I still think we need a new set of terms but it's up to the community as a whole how this evolves. Metroidvania is a word.. So add rogue to another game that kicked off genre?
@@dustov That then kicks out all the titles that fit the title roguelike though, and they're not really rogueclones. Play rogue, then play DCSS, play POWDER, IVAN and nethack all in one sitting. Did you then play 4 clones of the 5th game or did you play 5 games within the same genre? I'd argue that its most certainly the latter. Calling those "clones" of rogue is like saying the basegame of the boardgame talisman is a "clone" of monopoly because your roll dice and move a pawn around the outside of the board. Saying however that Spelunky or Isaac belongs in the same genre of game as nethack and IVAN is quite frankly erroneous by a mile. We need to make a divide between actual roguelikes and what for now I'm calling for want of a better word "rougelikes"
@@joefadda578 you make a lot of sense and I agree. Perhaps roguelike (as nonberliners use it) can be contrasted with pure/vanilla roguelike. That still results in either side of the 'Berlin wall' entering into arguments because of 1 term being used in different ways rather than anything else.
@@dustov Among certain social circles I tend to call games like spelunky, slay the spire etc "dinklebops" due to the fact that we've had the "what makes a roguelike" and the "does this fit" debates and we all came to the conclusion that we need a title to divide what "Berliners" would call actual roguelikes from what I'd otherwise call a rougelike. The name came about because upon that agreement I was tasked for the genre title, I retorted "I dont care if we ruddy well call them dinklebops, as long as they're not called roguelikes" so the genre "dinklebop" was born we've just yet to get it public XD
I come here for the intro music,the nice video is a bonus
Very good video! I have to say I've been one of these people that at first frowned upon games being called roguelike if they didn't mostly fit elements defined in this so-called Berlin interpretation. I guess I was mainly annoyed because a game like POWDER (my personal introduction to roguelikes) seemed too different from something like Enter the Gungeon to be called the same thing (even though I really like both).
I still think specific definitions on genres and subgenres can be useful and interesting as long as these don't restrict anyone from taking risks and trying new things (which is arguably way more important than endless genre debates). Roguelike became a catch-all term for games that invoke at least a couple of the key points you mentioned and that is fine, really - genre definitions always change overtime and can get messy and confusing until we start dissecting what they mean like you did here.
I mean, the definition of a genre wouldn't limit what people create. The game comes before the genre. If you're making a game to fit specific criteria rather than making the choices that best fit the game, then you're probably going to end up with a pretty generic game.
This video was fantastic. As a fan of the genre I played almost every game you presented. The way you present the information and talk about the topics feel so fluid and natural, it's just amazing. Thanks a lot for the video.
Great presentation. Thanks!
Not mentioning dungeon crawlers at ALL is a real shame. Considering there is over 30 games alone in the mystery dungeon franchise spanning 26 years its a real oversight.
Shiren the wanderer at least was shown with the term "Mystery Dungeon" mentioned.
But I could somewhat agree there could have been more shown regarding that sub-genre.
I think there is 3 really important rules that define roguelike, the first three presented at Berlin in order of importance:
1) permadeath
2) random map and object creation (I think these should have been combined as one rule, lose either and it isn't full roguelike experience) 3) turn-based gameplay. ( I don't get how this wouldn't be considered important. Turn-based gaming in general is wholly different thing from real-time. It's like comparing chess to ice hockey!)
This still may count in some border cases like Dwarf Fortress (which I think does fit in the genre), but more importantly clearly rules out straightforwardly not-roguelikes, like Zelda or Exile/Avernum games.
Then Minesweeper is a roguelike according to these rules.
@@ZenoRogue Well, I shouldn't have said rules. Definitions are tricky and I was thinking more of a minimum requirements of what defines a roguelike.
It makes no sense to me to start splitting hairs too much, there's always some edge case that does not fit.
@@jhutt8002 Well, the reason why the three rules you said were presented at Berlin was because the people at Berlin (2010) considered roguelikes to be the most similar to RPGs, and thus they listed the most visible factors that separated roguelikes from other RPGs, e.g. Zelda or Exile/Avernum you mention.
There are lots of strategy games and randomly-generated puzzles which also follow these rules. What makes roguelikes different *from these* is that you control a single character. And you can remove permadeath, it is optional in most roguelikes anyway, and it says nothing about how the game plays, only about the player, and is mostly the source of confusion (people calling any permadeath game a roguelike).
Regarding Dwarf Fortress -- it is a strategy game that is often bundled together with roguelikes because it comes from the same culture (ASCII art, free, permadeath), and it is actually a sequel to a roguelike, and it contains a roguelike mode ("adventure mode").
@@jhutt8002 Maybe to make some things a bit clearer:
I like your idea of simplifying the definition, that's the way to go.
Now consider a person reading a definition like this, from the top. Permadeath -- it is not clear why one would want that (are you a masochist?), but ok. Random map and object -- oh, now I understand what you meant by permadeath -- the game will be different every time you play, so permadeath is actually fun. Turn-based -- WTF? Okay, everyone agrees that it is a wholly different thing from real-time, but it seems quite orthogonal to permadeath? I can understand why people are confused when purists say "this is not a roguelike because this is not turn-based" and instead they think should talk about something more relevant to permadeath (for example the existence of metaprogression or not).
My personal definition starts from strategy. Turn-based strategy to be precise. With randomly generated maps. Grid-based. Single-character focus. So each point is a logical subgenre of what we have specified so far. (I also want the specific gameplay of roguelikes, to separate Desktop Dungeons, Kerkeruip and Decker, but they are still very close.)
@@ZenoRogue Yes, I think you can't have roguelike without those three rules in game. That was really my point:
Turn-based I explained. It completely changes how you approach the game, and what kind of mindset, or thinking, you employ in game.
This also relates to permadeath. I think it is MOST important rule to define roguelike, because it adds up the stakes, and gives them their characteristic difficulty and unforgiviness. It's not about whether it's fun or not, it's about that feel; if you make mistake it's over.
If you can just load you're game back up, or save some of you're success, it dilutes that dread and reduces that "roguelike feel" of the game.
Great video as always! Can you make one about what makes a game competitive?
Four years of comments and the most common thing between them, aside from people actually understanding what makes a roguelike, is how many people treat roguelite as a dirty word. "Roguelike-like" or "roguelike-inspired" or whatever are nauseating, people will do anything to avoid calling their favorite roguelite a roguelite. It's a genre with hundreds, if not thousands, of excellent games.
I have to assume that people attach a level of respect or awe to actual roguelikes, and they want to be seen as someone who plays them, even if it's just their own self-image. Only way that the psychology of it makes sense. Meanwhile, someone with an Isaac profile avatar and FTL profile background will be recommended something like ToME or ADoM and immediately skip over it. Imagine going up to a chess grandmaster as talking about your checkers skills because they use the same board. Really, just imagine what the grandmaster would think. (Or if it helps, talk about your office softball league to a guy wearing multiple World Series rings, whatever comparison makes this work for you.) That reaction they would have is exactly why people are defensive about the definition of roguelike versus roguelite. I'd also point out that finding someone that plays roguelikes but not roguelites is pretty impossible...
Can we say "this is the Dark Souls of game design"? :-P
I kid, of course, but it would be interesting to apply the same video format to analyze what is (and isn't) a "soulslike", a "mario clone"(AKA platformer) or a "Half-Life inspired" game. How genres are made in the first place and how they evolve over time.
Platformers are way too broad. And half life inspired games would probably fall under immersive sims. GMTK has videos for both immersive sims and soulslikes (and I think he brings up roguelikes in the latter)
"Soulslike" will never be a true genre. Any divergence from Dark Souls' formula and you've just got an Action-RPG.
@@aeronarcana7774 souls like is just the name of any from software game that isn’t dark souls
@@Bennieboy918 "Soulslike" is just a fancy way of saying "this game is ripping off FromSoft games".
@@aeronarcana7774 ah yes from software ripping off from software
I think your explanation of non-modal is incorrect. In the Berlin definition, it essentially means that everything happens from the same screen. The example I see used, which explains it best, is if you enter a shop, for instance, it doesn't switch to a different "shop screen" to make purchases. The shop instead physically exists in the game world.
In fact, if we unpack this a bit, we realize that Angband, and all its kin, are not nonmodal games!
Do a video on "Tactics Ogre : Let us Cling Together"!! It's battle and overall systems. Maybe even compare it to previous iterations for more content.
I love the game and I understand why, but would love a more critical analysis
If you remove random level generator you can get a genre called "demon tower" or whatever it is called, and that kind of game usually let you beat the final boss in a pre-defined tower, and whether or not you can make it completely depends on whether you use the fixed limited amount of resource properly. To compensate the resource amount being fixed, usually enemies won't fight you at all (and will just block your way) if you can't defeat it.
And if you remove the limited resource you kinda get the "Diablo" genre unless you only play in permanent league (league refresh is similar to permadeath). If you remove permadeath you get the survival genre. If you remove modal gameplay it would basically be webgames (games you play in a browser and is completely CGI or PHP based).
Great video! ^O^
Honestly , Rouglikes are my favourite genre of games. I love fighting games and platformers a lot as well.
1:02 Love that Rogue Legacy's soundtrack
Roguelikes are a progression structure that can be used as a basis for almost any genre of games.
Roguelikes are a genre of turn-based, tile-based permadeath, games with a big element of random generation and no meta progression. DCSS is a roguelike. Nethack is a roguelike. Jupiter Hell is a roguelike. Rift Wizard is a roguelike. Slay the Spire, Spelunky, Dead Cells, etc are not roguelikes. They're roguelike-inspired.
You can grab some of what a roguelike is to get inspiration for your non-roguelike game, like, for example, almost all of the games in this video do, i like to call those roguelike-inspired because they're for sure not roguelikes. And that's cool. But i'm not browsing the roguelike section of steam trying to find a roguelike-inspired platformer, i'm trying to find the new Rift Wizard.
There's such a drastic dissonance in gameplay feel between roguelikes and roguelike-inspired games that trying to say they're somehow the same is deluded at best and actually harmful at worst.
@@NinthSettler It's more functional to call them arcade games.
-Consider the similarity of Binding of Isaac to Atic Atac for the ZX Spectrum.
-Consider the Similarity of Downwell to Icy Tower.
-Consider the similarity of Rogue Legacy to Ghosts 'n Goblins.
-Consider the similarity of Vampire Survivors to Dracula Undead Awakening.
Now consider that for every game I listed as the second comparator, it's always been called an arcade game.
Further, consider that the two mechanics people use to claim something action focused is "roguelike," aren't gameplay mechanics, they're just random level-design and the "arcade-loop" of insert coin>play>die>insert coin>play>die repeat, simply without inserting the coin into the arcade machine.
Further still, consider that many games mal-tagged as "roguelike" when they're action orientated now also have the "arcade" tag.
The term "roguelike" is slowly falling out of favour, because people are coming to the realization that they're after arcade mechanics. Argue in favour of calling them arcade games.
I just happened to be listening to toejam and earl before I noticed this video was up. Hope the new game that's coming out soon is fun.
It's funny how the most important AAA roguelike saga might be Pokémon Mistery Dungeon.
The "Hack & Slash" element seems to be the most non-core to something being a *Roguelike* with all of the other elements being core to it as a genre. However, on closer examination, it probably more about combat being a regular threat, adding weight to the other components. A Roguelike with little to no combat would instead be more along the lines of a Survival Game. That's not to say that people can't change things up and blend it with other elements, but there's a difference between being a Roguelike and having elements of a Roguelike elements. Not entirely different from something being an RPG versus having RPG elements.
Very informative video
I was hoping that the -Ps3- PS2/Wii's Baroque, which I think is an updated version of a Dreamcast game, would get some attention here. It's the closest thing to a Roguelike I've ever played and nobody ever talks about it.
PS2*
I didn't play it myself, but I watched a good friend play quite a lot of it.
Great video! What if we got really weird with the Berlin Interpretation? Could it be applied to a game like... Fortnite? Hear me out:
1. We could relax the random dungeon generation and instead change what items are dropped where. The map becomes familiar but each run is unique based on where and what items spawn.
2. Perma-death remains the same. You get one chance to get to the end and be the last person standing.
3. Turn-based gameplay will need to be tweaked a bit. The timers for the storm closing in act in a similar method forcing the players into a small section of the map to finish the game out.
4. Non-modal gameplay remains the same because everyone starts with the pick and the ability to have several weapons/healing items and resources for walls.
5. Emergent gameplay remains the same. The whole island is built with the same walls/structures that a player can build and follow the same rules as structures a player builds.
6. Limited resources is all over Fortnite. The resources to build structures, the weapons and ammo, the health and shield items, are all limited resources that force the player to go out and gather some for the best chance of winning.
7. Fortnite isn't really hack-and-slash but it is a shooter game. Much like other roguelikes in the video the combat is just tweaked to be a bit different.
8. Mystery items in the form of what items are located where, in one game you may get a bad pistol and in another game you could get a super sweet rocket launcher. Also add to the fact that there are quality differences between the same type of item adds another layer to the mystery element of the game.
Overall, Fortnite hits on most of these points pretty well and is relaxed on a few of the others. Much like some of the games listed here, the success of the battle royale genre comes from many of the roguelike elements. It's no surprise that the battle royale game most closely tied to roguelikes also happens to be the most popular one in Fortnite.
Wow! This is such an interesting perspective. It never even occurred to me that Fortnite had any kind of roguelike elements, but when you lay it out like this, it sorta makes sense. The run-based gameplay and random items are particularly strong connections. Now that I'm thinking about it, I'd be extremely interested to see a competitive multiplayer game with a more traditional style of roguelike gameplay!
I disagree on the mystery aspect of Fortnite and PUBG. You know EXACTLY what you get when you pick up an item. Mystery is about being forced to take calculated risks or resource loss in order to identify an item, and is one of the ways that makes information a resource.
But frankly, that would make Fortnite AND PUBG less fun games if you gave them random generated suffixes or just went full borderlands.
This is a pretty interesting perspective, but sadly it's not a popular one, so a lot of people are gonna sh!t on it in the coming future.
Hmm, i guess its much the same how Prey: Mooncrash gets called a roguelite
@@benedict6962 Most of the games mentioned in the video have mystery items, but it doesn't come from a specific item being different between runs. In Binding of Isaac, all the main items have known effects, all the rooms and weapons in FTL are known, and you know what all the cards do in Slay the Spire.
If you look at the rule in a very strict way, you're absolutely right, Fortnite and PUBG doesn't fit, but it gets most of the way there by randomizing which items spawn where.
So, you could say that the Pokémon Mystery Dungeon series as a rogue-lite spin-off series.
1. PMD has random Dungeon generation.
2. PMD doesn’t have permadeath, but it does make you lose all items you had on hand when you are defeated.
3. PMD has turn based gameplay in that your opponents don’t move until you do.
4. PMD is mostly non-modal. You can do most things regardless of the Pokémon you take control of, but most Pokémon are limited to only walking on land tiles.
5. PMD’s emergent gameplay is rooted in the type system from the main series. HP, status effects, moves, and items also add emergent elements to the game.
6. PMD has limited resources in the amount of move each Pokémon can use, as well as the amount of items you can carry during a dungeon raid.
7. PMD isn’t restricted to just hack & slash gameplay, as a large number of moves can be ranged attacks or AOE attacks.
8. PMD has mystery items, such as dungeon specific boost items, as well as chests and gold bars that can be used to gain additional special items.
Pokémon Mystery Dungeon is a subfranchise of Mystery Dungeon, which is thoroughly a roguelike. Check out "Mystery Dungeon: Shiren the Wanderer," which is the non-licensed branch of the mystery dungeon franchise.
As all your progress is lost when you die, it is essentially permadeath. This game made some concessions to permanence by allowing you to store items from one run for a later one, but this meant losing them from your current run.
Shiren the Wanderer even has unidentified items!
I don't think "non-modal" excludes unlockable areas ie. metroidvanias. But it would exclude dialogue mode, map mode, inventory mode. Ironically, a lot of roguelikes do have full screen modes for different things.
More broadly, it means you can take any action at any time ie. you can shout things at enemies whilst fighting them or use items whenever/wherever.
Best video on this topic for sure.
Funny how you released this right alongside Mark Brown’s video on Rougelites and progression! What a coincidence!
Yeah. And they both focus on different subjects about Roguelikes so it is a nice thing to have both. Still funny how they released almost back to back. Must be a trend going on or something.
Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't DD do this a lot?
It's a coincidence. We didn't know that GMTK was even working on a Roguelike episode until after we released this one.
@@DesignDoc Great minds think alike, eh?
@@DesignDoc Rogue *lite*
Does anyone know what the games are at 0:34-0:41, 0:41-0:47, 4:40-4:46, 5:04-5:10, 8:59-9:10, 11:37-11:44, 11:45-11:50 and 11:51-12:03?
0:41-0:47 - Hades
11:45-11:50 - Risk of Rain 1
The FPS mage one is Ziggurat maybe?
0:34 heart&slash
We will conquer UA-cam!
Great vid by the way
I know the wikipedia article says "unix based mainframes", but I am a bit dubious on that. As far as I know the Unixes of the era ran on Minicomputers which are somewhat similar but distinct from mainframes. As far as I know the first Unix to run on a mainframe was in 1986 when IBM released AIX. The BSD style stuff that the developer of Rogue would have been using was all minicomputer stuff as far as I can tell. The university probably also had mainframes but they would have more likely been running some proprietary IBM OS like VSE or CP/CMS.
I used to work for IBM but I am not exactly an expert on the history though.
Design Doc is secretly GMTK... as both just released videos on Rougelikes.
GMTK also just made a Roguelike video? I thought his most recent video was on Stealth games no?
It's out tomorrow! (SpyMaster is a Patron, I think!)
@@GMTK Yep i'm a patron to both of you now :)
Thank you very much!
Really interesting i learned many things
It would be really cool if you could add a list of the game footage you show in the video description or even include the name in the video when its shown. Very often I see games that I would like to give a shot, but its pretty hard finding out what they are, when I can only google "isometric pixelart roguelike"....
Done
@@DesignDoc you are the best!
Who here knows that small roguelike called One Way Heroics? It's another roguelike with its main mechanic being a slow auto-scroller with randomly generated vast overworlds. It rocks the simple jrpg feel, a chosen hero goes on an adventure to stop the evil Demon Lord. But you either die to your enemies, or you get swallowed or crushed by the auto-scroller. Can anyone who played the game share their thoughts on it?
Oogh I loved Solitairica. I never expected it to show up in this list.
Honestly even as someone who hasn't really played any proper roguelike that adheres to the berlin interpretation, but has played quite a few games with those elements like the ones mentioned in the video (darkest dungeon, slay the spire etc) i'd say the berlin definition isn't bad at all. It's kind of a shame that people eventually started ignoring it, i'd say there should be a difference between a game that literally has the same base elements as rogue vs a game that just has some random item and map generation and permadeath. There is nothing wrong with calling the first category of games roguelikes (maybe even if they skip one or two of the less important points) and calling the second a roguelite or some other name like that, it isn't implying that one category is better or worse than the other. If anything just saying that random maps and no checkpoints as mechanics are enough to bundle together all these different games seems a bit reductive.
The term for the genre you're looking for is *"arcade."*
Consider the following:
-The comparison between Binding of Isaac and Atic Atac.
-The comparison between Downwell and Icy Tower.
-The comparison between Vampire Survivors and Dracula Undead Awakening.
-The comparison between Rogue Legacy and Ghosts 'n Goblins.
The latter of each comparator I've listed is an arcade game that plays exactly like the game I've asked you to compare it to. I've had to ask some friends for verification on some of the modern specifics due to being partially blind, but I've gotten back a rather unanimous "they're of exactly the same gameplay type" from not just the friends I've asked for the comparison-verification, but from everyone I've asked to do this.
What we find is people are mal-attributing "roguelike" to "arcade + procedural generation." Realistically we should just call them arcade games and be done with it.
And some degree of people agree. At time of this post, we do see that exit the gungeon has arcade as its highest tag, we do see that Rogue Legacy 2 has arcade as one of it's highest.
We do see the arcade tag on a great many things mistagged, formerly mistagged or "would have been mistagged if it were released 5 years ago" with the tag "roguelike."
The main issue I see with slapping the term "roguelike" on every game with permadeath is all of those games being nothing like Rogue.
Sure, it's debatable what's most important in a roguelike and what can be changed, but in the end one can draw a clear line between the games like Rogue, Nethack, ADOM, DCSS, ToME, or even DoomRL and the likes of Isaac, Gungeon, Dead Cells, FTL, Risk of Rain, etc.
This isn't about being a part of an elitist secret club - it's about defining a game through a genre. It's debatable how much of a "true" roguelikes games like ToME4 (multiple lives, cooldowns instead of consumables) or DoomRL (sound-reliant, most of the challenge comes from pre-built levels rather than from generated ones) are, yet it's clear as day they are much closer to Rogue than the likes of FTL, Binding of Isaac, or Risk of Rain - those have little in common with each other, to begin with.
That's where the term "roguelite" comes in - it describes games which treat permadeath as something important without lumping it into the same pile with roguelikes.
Differentiating between the two is as important as differentiating between RTS and FPS games - different genres, different audiences. A person who absolutely loves roguelikes is not guaranteed to like most, if any, of roguelites. I would even go further and claim that the term "roguelite" struggles to describe the genres that fall into it - games like Dead Cells and FTL have little in common - but that's only more reasons not to call those games "roguelikes" as that's an actual genre.
Additionally, roguelites aren't "evolution" of roguelikes - they are permadeath-inspired games. Evolution of the roguelike genre, as it would be expected, mostly stays within the genre itself. DCSS, ADOM, and ToME used to have far more in common than they have now - the games evolved dramatically over the time without having to change their genre entirely.
You say "run-based" - but most of the roguelikes aren't specifically "run-based". The player would have to make several runs to complete the game, sure, but that would be their ultimate purpose. Of course, they can start a new "run" but one can do that with pretty much any game out there.
ADOM, for instance, is more of a story-focused game, in a sense of the player figuring out the ways of getting to the endings. The game is designed around the player exploring and finding out those secrets (assuming the player didn't just read the spoilers - I know I did) which is highly likely to require several runs - but isn't build around "runs" in particular. DCSS has high replayability with all the species and paths available, but it does nothing to promote "run-based" gameplay. DoomRL kinda promotes "runs" with it being a "coffee-break roguelike" - it's kinda there between the challenges and difficulty settings, but then again - the main purpose of the game is to beat it, everything else is just an extra on top.
I would argue, that "run-based" gameplay is far more common in roguelites than in roguelikes. Most of roguelites have some sort of overarching progression system that's dependent on the "runs" the player makes, gradually unlocking more options and content. There are some roguelikes that do that - namely ToME4 with all the species/class unlocks - but it's rather an exception than the rule. Meanwhile, while there surely are, I struggle to remember a roguelite that doesn't have this kind of a progression system.
The problem is. You are thinking of Rogue CLONES. Not eoguelikes. Clones of an already existing game DO NOT get thier own genre name. Genres are defined by key characteristics of that genre. Not ALL the characteristics of a single fucking game.
A roguelike is a game that tests your skill every single run with a flat dificulty curve. This requires 3 characteristics.
1. The obvious perma-death.
2. The flat difficulty curve. Roguelikes CANNOT have persistant upgrades. Rogue Legacy is an entirely different genre. Not a rogue-lite as that word is fucking stupid.
3. Random levels. The point of game is skill. Not memorization. Random levels requires you to know how your skills are actually applied.
Rogue, FTL and Gungeon are all rogue-likes. Just like Unreal, Titalfall, and Arma are FPS games.
@@wylie2835 Roguelikes are not defined by just Rogue anymore - there are plenty of examples of modern Roguelikes which differentiate hugely from Rogue's design (take a look at Cogmind, for instance - it's an amazing game).
Please take your dated view of Roguelikes and go and learn what actual Roguelikes are now - not your warped and biased view. Calling things roguelites is not an insult - it's differentiating things which are different.
Roguelikes and roguelites play differently; Unreal, Titanfall, and Arma all have the same basic gameplay. Rogue, FTL, and Gungeon all have very different basic gameplay, aesthetics, and views on metaprogression (Gungeon has metaprogression, so by your own definition it isn't a Roguelike). They're very different.
Cogmind, Caves of Qud, Tangledeep, Golden Krone Hotel, ADOM, Dungeon Crawl: Stone Soup, Dungeons of Dredmor, Infra Arcana, ToME, UnReal World, Cataclysm: Dark Days Ahead, The Floor Gives Way, and Angband are all examples of games within the Roguelike genre - all have the same basic gameplay but different mechanics, theming, and higher level stuff (like how core mechanics work). That's a genre, not just basing everything off of copying Rogue. If that was all the Roguelike genre was, there wouldn't be so many Roguelikes that different people enjoy.
@@wylie2835 Is Pokemon Mystery Dungeon a Rogue clone then. No, it's a Roguelike, and all the non turned-based games are by necessity roguelites at best. The turn-based gameplay is far more important than the permadeath to the genre.
Mystery dungeon is a RPG. Perma death mechanics alone do not make a rogue-like.
And turn based games are not by necessity rogue-likes. YOU DON'T GET TO DECIDE THAT. The person who created the genre, and rogue, get to decide what that word means. Only degenerates make up definitions to words.
The turn based aspect of Rogue was a technical limitation. It's not an aspect of game design. It's not part of, and far from a requirement, of the genre. YOU CANNOT CHANGE THIS>
Roguelites do not exist. What you call roguelikes have no differences to rogue. They just change the art, and call the same features different things. Clones of any game do not get a genre. And definelty don't get named after and already existing genre defined by something else entirely. YOU DO NOT GET TO REDEFINE IT.
Fuck off you uneducated idiot.
@@wylie2835 Ah yes because dungeon crawl stone soup with its vast expanse of races, classes and a large pantheon of deities to match is totally a clone of the original rogue
If it does not bear similarity to rogue its not a roguelike. By your definition we ought to call halo a "doomlike" cause you shoot stuff. By your definition we ought to call the souls series spiritual successors to the DOS prince of persia because of the focus on the combat systems in both games, that is idiocy.
Hey man all those game you show and music from games are fucking good roguelikes ma dude
One absolutely amazing rogue-like you don't mention and is my golden standard is Cataclysm: Dark Days Ahead (CDDA).
It's not run based, there is no end goal. There's some "dungeons" as in basements, sewers, and labs. All of them hold dangers, and are rewarding in their own ways (basements are good for living in, labs give good loot, and sewers make it safer to travel. The game stays fresh by having a mind boggling amount of content, and I think it's something that should be pointed out to show a very good example.
These kinds of videos usually betray the creator's lack of knowledge of actual Roguelikes, apart from paying vague lip-service to the "outdated" idea of what Roguelikes are, and it's honestly frustrating. Totalbiscuit's video on the topic of Roguelikes vs roguelites was pretty good.
It's actually in the video very briefly! It shows some footage with one of the tilesets.
Still, Cataclysm is one of the best games ever.
good video, watched a few about rogelikes and no one metions the Berlin thing
Appreciate the ROR music
I agree that the Berlin interpretation sucks, but I still think it was made with good intentions. People just wanted to talk about roguelikes while the word "roguelikes" was co-opted to mean a totally different thing.
I mean, Enter the Gungeon and Slay the Spire are pretty cool games, but you'd be hard pressed to convince *anyone* that they belong in the same genre as Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup, Tales of Maj'eyal, Cogmind, or even slightly more distant titles like Caves of Qud. I end up calling this genre "classical roguelikes" most of the time, while these popular games that feel nothing like Rogue to play usurp the actual roguelike throne.
To be clear, Rogue is not a great game, but Classical Roguelikes are not "cookie cutter reskins of classics" and often retain very little of Rogue's inner workings.
*sudden topic shift* I also disagree about random dungeon generation plus permadeath being the most important combination of elements incorrect. The dungeon layout has far less effect on increasing variety between runs and importance of permadeath compared to randomized items. If Diablo stopped shuffling terrain, very little would change. Experienced players would memorize maps and play slightly faster. However if Diablo had fixed drop tables rather than randomized ones... It wouldn't be diablo. The biggest reason one run is different from the next isn't because the big open room is in a different spot this time, it's because you have a totally different set of tools.
I agree, Roguelikes are a distinct thing when compared to roguelites. Cogmind, Qud, and Tangledeep are all really good examples of modern Roguelikes which still innovate within the genre without throwing out how it feels to play
I really like Rogue. There's no doubt in my mind that it's a great game, even though many games that I like even more have come afterwards.
Usurp is kind of a bad vibe here, principally when talking a niche genre(vocal fanbase, but so restricted genre(berlin version) it's niche).
Sure they don't play like Rogue, but they do retain Rogue's main innovations or "have permadeath + random generated levels, like Rogue"(And putting other games would be weird, as it's an innovation mostly tied to Rogue or classic roguelikes)
Also, you described well how a level of Isaac often feels (even if the map can make or break the game sometimes for some players)
@@VikingSchism Sadly, people now are calling roguelites Quazi-permadeath games(still RNG of course).
I would say that enter the gungeon is in the same genre. But I definitely believe the modular genres are significantly more useful.
I completely agree with the item randomization, having played a lot of Link to the Past randomizer, I would say it has a very very roguelike feel with exclusively that feature.
I would say that the only important element in Rogue Likes is systems driven run based gameplay, and probably the easiest way to pull that off is with randomized items.
Sounds very typical to Butcher the core fundamentals of a genre. Take survival horror for instance. That genre is defined by:
- backtracking
- puzzle solving
- ammo and resources management
- inventory management
But then there's games like outlast which also gets termed as a survival horror game when in actuality it is a stealth horror game. Or resident evil 4, which is in actuality an action horror game.
Better classifications of these niche specific genre's just gives the end user a better idea of what they're expecting instead of loosely using the same label for dramatically different gameplay styles.
I always felt like naming a genre after a specific game is a mistake, because it will cloud what is actually crucial of the genre, and what is just an aspect of the game itself (what worked in that specific combination, public reception, equipment available, etc).
Also, the whole "it's roguelite not roguelike" has the same energy as "you are using literally wrong".
You are likely 100% correct.. it's a shame 99% of the world doesn't care and will continue to use it wrong. :\
The problem is that, in the case of roguelikes, it is impossible to define what this aspect actually is.
If you have played ADOM, DCSS, NetHack, etc., you know they are great, but it is difficult to tell exactly what makes them special. If you try to define it, using some list of features, you will end up like Plato's definition of a human as a featherless biped. Probably Minesweeper will be a roguelike according to your definition (since it is turn-based, grid-based, randomly generated and permadeath), or your definition will include some things that are not actually relevant (like "being free", "using character display" or "enforcing permadeath"), or some other nonsense like that.
Which is why the community around these games have invented the term "roguelike": they were not definable with simple terms. On the other hand, the buzzword understanding of "roguelike" is roughly "a game with permadeath and randomness" -- if you like such games, fine, but you could just call them "run-based games", and let people interested in the original roguelikes use the original term.
Nice darkest dungeon music
I'd like to give an example of rogue-like/rogue-light added to a game which made it better to replay. Because I think the genre is so attractive to replay value!
Streets of Rage 4 is a fun and honourable modern sequel to the classic arcade-style series but to satisdy modern tastes the game is LONG compared to the usual half hour to hour the old games took to complete. It saves between stages and it's stil great, but makes it more an investment and less a party game. It has an Arcade mode where you can't save inbetween or retry a stage, you have to do it in one go, which just makes the game harder! And it's all the same levels...
Then maybe a year later they released a DLC (not free unfortunately) with a new Survival mode! Here each run is unique, room's enemies are randomised getting progressively harder, items and in-run upgrades are randomised, if you die the run is over, and as a small incentive/reward, the time you put into the run goes toward unlocking new moves for the character you played with, also encouraging replay with different characters!
As fun in spectacle as the constructed story levels are, they get tiresome when they take 5 hours total instead of 1. Now there's a fresh game every time! Also they lock in 1 seed for players to compete on each week. I'm not likely to get high in the ranks, but it also gives some semi-stability within the randomness to repeat during that week! And whereas the additional options with the base game of Arcade mode and Boss Rush made the game harder; Survival mode opens up the game to casual, easier play.
Oh wow, you mentioned Solitairica, criminally overlooked game
Played the crap out of it ever since I bought it, it's an incredible game to kill time with on your phone. And there's no gacha system or ads either, just a good proper game with a cheao pricetag
Had to subscribe after watching
cool
This video could be useful as a basic example of prototype theory of concepts.
Now we need a vid on myst-likes.
*feverishly writing down the mentioned games I don't have*
great video, but that nuclear throne gameplay hurts lol
You deserve more subscribers. This is quality work.
No love for Tales of Maj'Eyal? That game slaps, and is (in my opinion at least) the most polished, modern interpretation of Rogue.
Having a game calle a roguelike is not an achievement. It is fine if the term roguelike is limited to this berlin conversion rules. If someone whant to create a game where e.g. everything is in realtime, it is not a roguelike, it is maybe another genre. And most important it is the creativity of the designer. It is ok not to invite everyone to your party and make them "part of it". Let there be many parties :-)
I've always wondered how a sandbox game like Minecraft, Terraria, or Starbound, would've handled progressive permadeath systems like what Dead Cells or Rogue Legacy...
Actually, come to think of it, doesn't Minecraft on Survival mode already do this kind of system, where you lose XP on death, and could also possibly lose dropped items forever? Same thing with Starbound, except that you get to keep your weapons, armor, and equipment unless you play certain mods.
Minecraft and Terraria are just as much roguelikes as dead cells and rogue legacy. I dont consider any of them roguelikes, just like I dont consider Fifa an FPS.
I know this probably wasn't meant to be the main takeaway of this video, but God what I'd give for ftl on switch
I think the Berlin interpretation is an entirely useless set of ideas. It doesn't define what is a rougelike, it just clarifies what isn't a rougelike. Like you said, genres will stagnate if they don't get changed and altered. If people didn't try to do new things, then the genre of FPS never would have progressed past Doom and into more interesting angles. Rougelike no longer means "like rouge", is is now a term that refers to a genre that relies on RNG elements, and perma-death. Those are the only things needed to be a rougelike. The same way Metroidvania no longer means "like metroid/castlevania SotN" but instead means any game with an open, but still somewhat linear map to explore with upgrades along the way
Sry but *roguelike
@@relo999 You can definitely find far more to point out there, like the pace of the gameplay, the health system, how weapons work (how many you can carry, the lack of a hierarchy, and how ammo works), and other such things that a "berlin interpretation of a Doomlike/FPS" would probably include if it tried to go as deep as it does for Roguelikes.
Really though, FPS is one of the least helpful genres, which is exactly why it gets so many subgenres, to the point that I'd argue that every FPS game has a subgenre, one of them just gets implied if you simply say "FPS". Because really, almost all FPS actually describes, is the camera perspective, and a means of interaction with the world. The Berlin Interpretation of a Roguelike is uselessly specific, but FPS almost goes in the opposite direction, and thus needs to be broken up.
I don't think the Berlin interpretation is useless at all, it very accurately describes games that are "like Rogue". If your point is that the description no longer accurately applies to the majority of games it is attributed to, then it's time to come up with a new name. If the core commonality is heavy use of RNG elements and permadeath, then maybe something like "Random Run" or "Deathrunner" would be more appropriate?
As for Metroidvanias, I think the name still works since a good 80% of the genre are still copying Metroid's level-design and progression structure. Were this to change though, I could see changing the name to something like "Exploration Platformer".
How is it uselessly specific? That's what a definition is, specific AND particular!
This is literally why the term "roguelite" exists, and refusing to use it is nothing more than a weird self-important need to be recognized as special and one of the big boys
If you think what you like is better because it's different, then it should be allowed to be referred to as different and not need to be lumped into a description meant for something else just for recognition
What's the gam at 8:59 ?
0:36 Which game is that?
Nice, although i must admit - the hack and slash isn't removed when talking about FTL and it really bothers me.
I used to listen to FTL's soundtrack while reading books. Now I don't really have time for either one...
0:35 what's the name of that game?
5:05 name of game please?
What's the game at 6:29?
Is Pokemon Mystery Dungeon a Roguelike?? ô_o
Depends who you talk to. People who play games like Spelunky, FTL, Slay the Spire and other "modern roguelikes" will probably say no because it doesn't have permadeath. People who play games like Nethack, Crawl, Elona or other "traditional roguelikes" will probably say yes because it's a turn based, grid based, non-modal dungeon crawler with many of the genre traditions. Some people might call it a roguelite or something
@@Boblymon interestingly, the game it's based on, Mystery Dungeon: Shinren the Wanderer, has much more of a perma-death like theme, though you can store items to retrieve them later.
@@Boblymon It is enough of a proof that those two are different genres.
You have genre than mainly comes from the overall gameplay style of Rogue (stuff like permadeath is just one of the elements, not the defining factor)
And there are games that focus on specific elements: procedural generation and permadeath and apply them to different style of gameplay.
Try shattered pixel dungeon. It's a modern roguelike, free, open source, for mobile. It's a turn based dungeon crawler, an old school roguelike. I played almost evry roguelike showed in the video, and shattered pixel dungeon is my favorite
Dude its only on plays store so maybe that guy as not a android
And you should say old roguelike because pixel dungeon is really following the berlin rules and modern roguelikes is more of a term for roguelikes that have few changes
That's literally the only game I play on my phone. I despise mobile gaming but PD works perfectly for a phone and actually rewards skill and smarts over pay 2 win bullshit.
@@shadowfalcon1269 No, modern roguelike is just a modern roguelike. What you're describing is a roguelite
so what I'm getting from all this is, chess is a roguelite with turn based non-modal gameplay and permadeath
The debate on what constitutes a roguelike or not is often very toxic. Genres are just categories to help classify games. But ultimately, each game is unique, and more importantly, a game doesn't need to follow any conventions. It doesn't have to fit a certain definition. So who cares if a game is a roguelike or not? Does your enjoyment of a game have to depend on the genre it's labeled as?
*This!* Genres are at their fundamental level, groupings of inclusion and exclusion for search-specific purposes.
A genre that includes racing games, first person shooters, puzzle platformers, turn and tile strategy games, endless runners, and idle-games simply no longer functions as a genre, because you cannot *use* it to narrow search parameters!
I will argue that roguelikes are turn based until my dying days, but that's specifically because real roguelikes are 80%-90% of what I can play due to partial blindness and being one armed.
The turns and tiles of something "like rogue" allow me to take my time, allow me to plot each movement, allow me time to squint, allow me time to make sure what I'm looking at is the same thing as what I'm perceiving, rather than just hoping they're the same blurry mess.
The save anywhere, and save on exit functionality then allow me to make sure 30 minutes of my progress, that might equal 5 minutes of a regularly-sighted persons progress don't get washed away with the inability to reach a save point within what the game-devs would've considered "reasonable."
Turns are huge mechanics for disability access.
Tiles are huge mechanics for disability access.
Save anywhere function is huge for disability access.
The core functionality of what a roguelike is, is(albeit unwittingly) a giant ball of disability access.
I don't think Berlin interpretation is to force sticking to the rigid definition, but was created more for the sake of having clarity. You yourself had to in your script refer to games like Rogue, Adom or Nethack as "classic roguelike" as opposed to the more modernized ones like Gungeon or Hand of Fate. That's where Berlin interpretation comes in handy. Checks all eight boxes? Roguelike! Checks only few? Roguelite! (or "roguelike-like" bleh) It's like whether you call something an FPS. You shoot enemies in Gears of War too but it's from third person perspective. Is it awesome? Yes! Is is FPS? No! You see things from first person perspective in Resident Evil VII. Is it FPS? Hell no! Is it awesome? Hell yeah! So you can have youe Berlin interpretation and you can interpret whether a game is roguelike or roguelite, and you can have awesome games in either genre.
Sigh...
I had a big set of scripts and notes about roguelike design and the differences between the different schools of roguelike design and how each one evolves the original design formula presented by classic roguelikes. So it was pretty much your video without the fancy editing. Lesson learned, don’t wait too long to make a video otherwise someone else will do it before you do.
Oof. If it's any consolation, we've had to change up scripts before for the same reason. Make it anyway, if you want. We skimmed over a bunch of games, so there's plenty left to write about.
Eh, I cannot complain too much. When there are so many game design youtubers it was inevitable that eventually one of them would put out a video very similar to one I have been working on. As a side note I was going to retool the video to be a discussion about progression in roguelikes but it looks like Game Maker’s Toolkit has me beat there as well. Maybe the universe is trying to tell me something and I should just take the hint already.
That move at 10:05 was wasted, you could've just punch him for the same effect
I think permanent power upgrades detract from the experience. FTL's variety progression with allowing you to unlock different ships is a much better way to do progression in my opinion.
Yeah, it's nice to unlock new options but it feels kinda crappy when a base game with nothing unlocked is simply going to be weaker then a save file that's played for ages. (one of the big draws of classical roguelikes to me is that I can throw them on any random pc and start having a good time)
I notice that Flinthook, which has just such a permanent power progression, rarely gets brought up in discussions of Roguelikeness.
@@ArkRiley Simply because it isnt a roguelike.
Fun drinking game: take a shot every time he says "roguelike"
How many aspects can be changed be changed before it stops being roguelike and which aspects must never be changed to keep it roguelike?
@Flybreaker Footage If run-based gameplay is what matters to you, then simply call them "run-based games" and everything will be clear. Roguelikes in the traditional meaning do not actually do "run-based" that well -- they tend to have very long runs (10-100 hour long), and permadeath is more of a player's choice -- but they have lots of other things that are fun about them, and people who want these things are unhappy that "roguelike" popularly means something completely different.
wow...I never thought of Toejam and Earl as a roguelike, but it totally fits. Explains why I loved it so much back in the day too.
What's the game at 4:46?
Nuclear Throne
Nuclear Throne
Thank you!! :)
The worst part about the roguelike vs rogue-lite debate is the existence of so-called "rougelikes".
Rouge is a thing you put on your face. Rogue is a thing that takes your treasures away.
No, realtime gameplay is not “just as compelling”. Because now UI, controls become a limiting factor on what you can realistically do, greatly limiting game’s depth. Especially since many of the rogue-lites play on a gamepad, while a true roguelike uses entire keyboard to give you quick access to a multitude of commands. But even with gamepad, non-realtime gameplay would actually let you choose among these commands, albeit via a cumbersome menu.
What makes the games like Gungeon rogue-lites is the lack of depth, not just the lack of turn-based gameplay.
And Diablo or Gauntlet did this much much earlier.
Another garbage “invention” of rogue-lites is gradually powering up between runs and having your first runs basically unwinnable. This boils down to being unable to complete the game until you waste a certain number of hours on it.
You are confusing depth with complexity.
Depth requires a player understand the full ramifications of all actions. Understand the exact risk vs reward of each. The state everything is in before an action, and the state everything will be in after each action.
For something to contribute to depth of a game also must be an optimal action to take. Doing a sub-optimal or bad action doesn't count because its not how a skilled player should or would play. It might as well not exist as a move. So it doesn't contribute. Its just useless game clutter and bad design.
Complexity usually takes away from depth. You like complexity, but not depth. Go. That game has depth. The games you like are severely lacking in depth, but have a lot of complexity.
One way to tell is AI. A brute force AI can easily solve your rouge-clones. An AI cannot solve Go, despite it being significantly simpler. Thats what makes Alpha Go so significant.