Yes, it is an early didactic work, but I love it! Most of Handel's keyboard music, except for the organ concerti, are quite early. Even the organ concerti are rather sketchy because he was his own interpreter. I imagine Handel didn't compose for keyboard because he was a self-made man. Since there was no copyright, once he published, say, a keyboard work or any composition, it went public domain. He couldn't make a living that way. So, his attention went to opera, oratorio and commissioned ceremonial music where he could control the scores. Besides, his preference was to compose for voice/opera, anyway. All that said, it's still a pity he didn't compose more for keyboard etc. Actually, a great pity.
I would like to point out that the musically ignorant (me) don't know what the hell this is about. but I do know that it's nice, lilting, and satisfying. it's a shame everyone has to lose the joy of listening to this crabbiness-producing analysis
This appears to be quite a common theme in this period. Antonio Vivaldi used this bass line as the subject to the fugue on the lines "Sicut Erat in Principio" from his Dixit Dominus in D.
@ktriebler so . ich hatte gestern stromausfall ... wollt noch schreiben, dass ich deinen upload von hwv 496 gefunden habe. hammer stück vor allem des 2. hab schonmal versucht mit screenshots an die noten zu kommen , aber der drucker mag das iwie net. vllt kannst du mir iwie die noten von dem stück zukommen lassen ? hab auch nix auf imslp gefunden ich wäre dir sehr dankbar weil dat dingen muss ich spielen xD
@Dirkovic80 Die Noten zur "Lesson" HWV 496 sind hier: imslp.org/wiki/Suites_de_Pi%C3%A8ces_%281733%29,_HWV_434-442_%28Handel,_George_Frideric%29 (alles in einer Zeile), die Chrysander Ausgabe, im PDF die Seite 151.
According to Christoph Wolff, this aria was the inspiration for the first eight measures of Bach’s Goldberg variations. It’s as if Bach was saying, “Cute but I think you left something out!” It’s no surprise that all of the great composer’s thereafter studied Bach. You “play” Handel; you “Study” Bach!
I doubt it. That bass progression was a staple of renaissance and baroque music. It is known as the chaconne ground - not because of this particular chaconne, but because all chaconnes by all composers were based on it. Bach would have heard it a million times in all imaginable variations, so it was just a matter of time before he wrote his own version of it. That the Goldberg Variations sound similar to this piece is not remarkable at all. It's not even worth mentioning. What is indeed remarkable is the fact that so little of Bach's other music resembles it. It almost seems as if Bach made a conscious effort to avoid this commonplace chord progression throughout his life, and when he finally gave in, he made sure to make it impossible for any other composer to use it ever again after him.
Timrath Possibly Wolff is referring to the common progression of the time as you are. Makes sense. None the less, Bach was proving endless possibilities of harmonization no matter how simple the progression. Look up BWV 1087 Canons on UA-cam. He did more with that progression. Bach left no stone unturned. His music as a whole is prophetic of things to come even Jazz and Atonal. Just in the Goldbergs alone you hear ideas that Mozart, Beethoven and others would use. And you are absolutely correct. The latter composers could expound upon an idea but couldn't begin to equal his compostional skills. There is nothing new after Bach; just different.
@108285708993643052054 This was a didactic work written for students, it is sometimes listed as a "lesson". This was never supposed to be a concert work. Suites I through VIIiI are Handel`s concert pieces. Beethoven, Mozart, Mendelssohn, and Haydn all studied Handel. Bach himself studied the first book of suites before he composed his French Suites. Get you info straight. PS. Christoph Wolff forgot to mention that Telemann also uses progression. It was a very common one for the late baroque.
***** With all due respect, my facts are straight. They all may have studied Handel at one time, probably in their younger years but as they matured they also needed challenge and growth. Mozart once remarked “Now there’s something I can learn from” after hearing his teacher’s (Johann Christian Bach) Father’s music. In his piano concertos Mozart favors the right hand like Handel. It is only by the time he writes the Requiem that his music takes drastic turn towards a more complex Bachian style. Mendelssohn became obsessed with the B minor Mass at a very young age obtaining a score which he carried around like Linus' blanket. He was the first to perform Bach in concert in almost a century. You can hear fugal segments that Rival Bach's in many of his orchestralworks. Beethoven had both books of the Well Tempered Clavier memorized by age 15. His mature music is full of Bach “riffs”. He himself called Bach "Ocean, not Brook! (Bach German).Listen to your Handel carefully and you will note the he rarely leaves “home”; hopelessly I-IV-V guy. Have you ever listened to Handel’s organ concertos? Where are the pedals? Where is the left hand? The “Bach Reader” states Handel’s organ playing as being more rapturous but less profound than Bach’s’, Pg.42. A critique written in 1788 states Handle’s fugues as “good” but often abandoning a voice while with Bach, no voice fails to receive its proper share; pg 283, “The Bach Reader”. Bach greatly respected Handel and had arranged to meet him three times in which Handel wormed out of the first two (I wonder why?).By the third arranged meeting Bach was dead. Don’t get me wrong. I like Handel’s music. It’s pleasant and predictable, but there is really nothing to be learned from it. I’d say Handel was the Rolling Stones (catchy tunes, no substance) of his era while Bach was obviously the Beatles! As for not mentioning Telemann another I,IV, V-er, maybe Wolff didn’t want to waste the ink. Now there’s a composer that never leaves home except to do an occasional goofy harmony of some sort. There is no denying that there is music and then there is Bach!
jfmanluke With do respect, I own the Bach Reader. The Bach Reader is a book that is typical of many studies on various topics that are slanted toward the subject. Bach is never compared to Handel on Handel`s terms. It is always the other way around. 1. Errors with 1788 information on Handel's fugues. There are literally dozens of Handel fugues that are textbook 4 voice fugues, and double fugues.2. Bach is an amateur when it came to drama in his music. The great Alfred Brendel, of Beethoven, Schubert pianistic fame said at a lecture recently that his life and changed since discovering Handel opera. He pointed out scene after scene not only from operas but from the dramatic oratorios that Handel wrote, where there are structures that are almost Wagnerian in scope.. He went on stating that Handel`s humanizing of characters was equal if not greater than Mozart`s. He fully agreed with Manfred Bukofzer, that Bach and Handel are equals but different. I might also remind you, that Beethoven called Handel the greatest composer that ever lived not Bach. I am not going to get in to this further with you, because you are obviously a Bach man. I I would be willing to bet that you don`t know Handel. The BS about Handel being afraid of Bach is Bachian wishful fantasy. Try listening some time to Hercules, A work I`m sure you do not know. There is a fine performance of it on YT with Joyce Di Dinato. Go to the Handel group on Yahoo if you want to educate yourself. Handel is on his way again to regain his rightful place as Bach`s equal but different composer. PS after reading your comment, you obviously do not know Handel. Well I do know Bach, playing all the organ works and many of the concerti. He is right up there with Handel and Beethoven in the top three. I would never put Mozart there. PPS. Get rid of the Bach Reader it is propaganda.
Auch, -BACH? nein, nicht Bach, --HANDEL. Thanks to ktriebler for this post. I am not a professional player, but, I hear the regal sound of Handel, as opposed to the perfectly, calculated, sound of Bach. I prefer Bach. He is more creative; visceral, but at the same time, a heavenly gifted artist. But, if you want to discus patrimony, Buxtehude is the man. Amen.
@ktriebler ich glaube ich kann bei dir auch auf deutsch antworten, fällt uns glaub ich beiden leichter ^ ja , da hast du recht, ist ja jetzt nicht so, dass ich alles andere verachte. ich hör schon lange klassik früher war es mehr so kreuz und quer , so kenn ich ein wenig zumindest von jedem komponisten. ich habe mir aber selbst zum vorsatz gemacht erstmal die großen 3 (m. b. h.) wirklich zu studieren oder mich möglichst damit zu befassen , bevor ich anderes herangehe
@Dirkovic80 I ralerly listen to Chopin (let alone Liszt), that's for sure. Don't know if it says more about me than about them... Give Schubert a try though.
This is a really nice illustration of how much richer and more dissonant Bach's harmonies are than Handel's. Bach's are also just so much more tuneful and rhythmically interesting to me.
Are you deaf? This is a DIDACTIC work. It’s literally just a collection of variations on a chord progression. It’s not even meant to be performed, holy shit. It takes a genius like Handel to make something so functional sound incredible like this
I came here to see what Handel did with this ground. Answer: Not very much. Every variation sounds like the same one. There is no change in mood, emotion, key, dance form, compositional technique....
@enrothable the names bach and haendel are of an different caliber as liszt and chopin dont you think ? and chopin was deeply influenced by mozart but never came close bach mozart haendel are the top 3
Handel really knows and understand what people like to listen.
i think he didn t care about people feelings he created this for him
Wonderful playing. So delicately expressed!!
Händel wrote this work as a teenager (1700-1705) and was the inspiration for Bach's Goldberg Variations (1741). I prefer Händel
Ja, ich auch.
Yes, it is an early didactic work, but I love it! Most of Handel's keyboard music, except for the organ concerti, are quite early. Even the organ concerti are rather sketchy because he was his own interpreter. I imagine Handel didn't compose for keyboard because he was a self-made man. Since there was no copyright, once he published, say, a keyboard work or any composition, it went public domain. He couldn't make a living that way. So, his attention went to opera, oratorio and commissioned ceremonial music where he could control the scores. Besides, his preference was to compose for voice/opera, anyway. All that said, it's still a pity he didn't compose more for keyboard etc. Actually, a great pity.
Eberhard Kraus has recorded the complete harpsichord works of GF Handel.Great play.
This is a teaching work and was meant to be. If you read about Handel`s keyboard you`d know that.
This is so beautiful I will play this.
山の上で、思いっきり叫びたくなりそうな曲ですね。
Bach and Handle had a few chances to meet... What would have happend to our music history had they met and exchanged ideas in person??
great player here
Peu connue mais superbe, jouée sur un bel instrument, on n'est plus sur terre.
Händel: "See this basic-ass chord progression? Pretty boring, huh? Well let me show you what Händel can do with it...."
I would like to point out that the musically ignorant (me) don't know what the hell this is about. but I do know that it's nice, lilting, and satisfying. it's a shame everyone has to lose the joy of listening to this crabbiness-producing analysis
I think you are correct in your comment, except the three great ones for me are Bach, Handel and Beethoven.
This work, as was the second book of suites for didactic purposes. Handel`s great harpsichord is in the first book suites, I--- VIII
This very pretty..
This appears to be quite a common theme in this period. Antonio Vivaldi used this bass line as the subject to the fugue on the lines "Sicut Erat in Principio" from his Dixit Dominus in D.
Händel was first. He composed this work as a teenager (between 1700-1705)
@ktriebler
super , danke dir vielmlals
spielst du egtl auch cembalo/klavier ?
@ktriebler
so . ich hatte gestern stromausfall ... wollt noch schreiben, dass ich deinen upload von hwv 496 gefunden habe. hammer stück vor allem des 2.
hab schonmal versucht mit screenshots an die noten zu kommen , aber der drucker mag das iwie net.
vllt kannst du mir iwie die noten von dem stück zukommen lassen ? hab auch nix auf imslp gefunden
ich wäre dir sehr dankbar
weil dat dingen muss ich spielen xD
WE CAN HEAR SOME ROOTS OF MOZART ART !
@Dirkovic80
Die Noten zur "Lesson" HWV 496 sind hier:
imslp.org/wiki/Suites_de_Pi%C3%A8ces_%281733%29,_HWV_434-442_%28Handel,_George_Frideric%29
(alles in einer Zeile), die Chrysander Ausgabe, im PDF die Seite 151.
Variation 5 is very similar with Goldberg variation 19
According to Christoph Wolff, this aria was the inspiration for the first eight measures of Bach’s Goldberg variations. It’s as if Bach was saying, “Cute but I think you left something out!” It’s no surprise that all of the great composer’s thereafter studied Bach. You “play” Handel; you “Study” Bach!
I doubt it. That bass progression was a staple of renaissance and baroque music. It is known as the chaconne ground - not because of this particular chaconne, but because all chaconnes by all composers were based on it. Bach would have heard it a million times in all imaginable variations, so it was just a matter of time before he wrote his own version of it.
That the Goldberg Variations sound similar to this piece is not remarkable at all. It's not even worth mentioning. What is indeed remarkable is the fact that so little of Bach's other music resembles it. It almost seems as if Bach made a conscious effort to avoid this commonplace chord progression throughout his life, and when he finally gave in, he made sure to make it impossible for any other composer to use it ever again after him.
Timrath Possibly Wolff is referring to the common progression of the time as you are. Makes sense. None the less, Bach was proving endless possibilities of harmonization no matter how simple the progression. Look up BWV 1087 Canons on UA-cam. He did more with that progression. Bach left no stone unturned. His music as a whole is prophetic of things to come even Jazz and Atonal. Just in the Goldbergs alone you hear ideas that Mozart, Beethoven and others would use. And you are absolutely correct. The latter composers could expound upon an idea but couldn't begin to equal his compostional skills. There is nothing new after Bach; just different.
@108285708993643052054 This was a didactic work written for students, it is sometimes listed as a "lesson". This was never supposed to be a concert work. Suites I through VIIiI are Handel`s concert pieces. Beethoven, Mozart, Mendelssohn, and Haydn all studied Handel. Bach himself studied the first book of suites before he composed his French Suites. Get you info straight.
PS. Christoph Wolff forgot to mention that Telemann also uses progression. It was a very common one for the late baroque.
*****
With all due respect, my facts are straight. They all may have
studied Handel at one time, probably in their younger years but as they matured
they also needed challenge and growth. Mozart once remarked “Now there’s
something I can learn from” after hearing his teacher’s (Johann Christian Bach)
Father’s music. In his piano concertos Mozart favors the right hand like Handel. It
is only by the time he writes the Requiem that his music takes drastic turn
towards a more complex Bachian style. Mendelssohn became obsessed with the B
minor Mass at a very young age obtaining a score which he carried around like Linus' blanket. He was the first to perform Bach in concert in almost a century. You can hear fugal segments that Rival Bach's in many of his orchestralworks. Beethoven had both books of the Well Tempered Clavier memorized by age
15. His mature music is full of Bach “riffs”. He himself called Bach "Ocean, not Brook! (Bach German).Listen to your Handel carefully
and you will note the he rarely leaves “home”; hopelessly I-IV-V guy. Have you
ever listened to Handel’s organ concertos? Where are the pedals? Where is the
left hand? The “Bach Reader” states Handel’s organ playing as being more
rapturous but less profound than Bach’s’, Pg.42. A critique written in 1788
states Handle’s fugues as “good” but often abandoning a voice while with Bach,
no voice fails to receive its proper share; pg 283, “The Bach Reader”. Bach
greatly respected Handel and had arranged to meet him three times in which Handel
wormed out of the first two (I wonder why?).By the third arranged meeting Bach
was dead. Don’t get me wrong. I like Handel’s music. It’s pleasant and predictable,
but there is really nothing to be learned from it. I’d say Handel was the
Rolling Stones (catchy tunes, no substance) of his era while Bach was obviously
the Beatles! As for not mentioning Telemann another I,IV, V-er, maybe Wolff
didn’t want to waste the ink. Now there’s a composer that never leaves home except to do an occasional goofy harmony of some sort. There is no denying that there is music and then there is Bach!
jfmanluke With do respect, I own the Bach Reader. The Bach Reader is a book that is typical of many studies on various topics that are slanted toward the subject. Bach is never compared to Handel on Handel`s terms. It is always the other way around. 1. Errors with 1788 information on Handel's fugues. There are literally dozens of Handel fugues that are textbook 4 voice fugues, and double fugues.2. Bach is an amateur when it came to drama in his music. The great Alfred Brendel, of Beethoven, Schubert pianistic fame said at a lecture recently that his life and changed since discovering Handel opera. He pointed out scene after scene not only from operas but from the dramatic oratorios that Handel wrote, where there are structures that are almost Wagnerian in scope.. He went on stating that Handel`s humanizing of characters was equal if not greater than Mozart`s. He fully agreed with Manfred Bukofzer, that Bach and Handel are equals but different.
I might also remind you, that Beethoven called Handel the greatest composer that ever lived not Bach.
I am not going to get in to this further with you, because you are obviously a Bach man. I I would be willing to bet that you don`t know Handel. The BS about Handel being afraid of Bach is Bachian wishful fantasy. Try listening some time to Hercules, A work I`m sure you do not know. There is a fine performance of it on YT with Joyce Di Dinato. Go to the Handel group on Yahoo if you want to educate yourself. Handel is on his way again to regain his rightful place as Bach`s equal but different composer.
PS after reading your comment, you obviously do not know Handel. Well I do know Bach, playing all the organ works and many of the concerti. He is right up there with Handel and Beethoven in the top three. I would never put Mozart there.
PPS. Get rid of the Bach Reader it is propaganda.
(내딸이쓴거임^^)안녕하세요
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Auch, -BACH? nein, nicht Bach, --HANDEL.
Thanks to ktriebler for this post.
I am not a professional player, but, I hear the regal sound of Handel, as opposed to the perfectly, calculated, sound of Bach.
I prefer Bach. He is more creative; visceral, but at the same time, a heavenly gifted artist.
But, if you want to discus patrimony, Buxtehude is the man. Amen.
Bach visceral? I dont think so.
Handel: *Composed Chaconne with 62 Variations*
Bach: "May I copy your homework for my Goldberg Variations?"
@ktriebler
ich glaube ich kann bei dir auch auf deutsch antworten, fällt uns glaub ich beiden leichter ^
ja , da hast du recht, ist ja jetzt nicht so, dass ich alles andere verachte.
ich hör schon lange klassik früher war es mehr so kreuz und quer , so kenn ich ein wenig zumindest von jedem komponisten.
ich habe mir aber selbst zum vorsatz gemacht erstmal die großen 3 (m. b. h.) wirklich zu studieren oder mich möglichst damit zu befassen , bevor ich anderes herangehe
62 VARIATIONEN????????
@Dirkovic80
I ralerly listen to Chopin (let alone Liszt), that's for sure. Don't know if it says more about me than about them... Give Schubert a try though.
Moin 8a Servus
As Phillip Hale said, "...the unspeakable cheapness..."
This is a really nice illustration of how much richer and more dissonant Bach's harmonies are than Handel's. Bach's are also just so much more tuneful and rhythmically interesting to me.
Is Rameau a piece of shit too then?
Are you deaf? This is a DIDACTIC work. It’s literally just a collection of variations on a chord progression. It’s not even meant to be performed, holy shit. It takes a genius like Handel to make something so functional sound incredible like this
Frankly, I find a lot of Bach pretty boring. But it's all a matter of taste, I suppose.
I came here to see what Handel did with this ground.
Answer: Not very much. Every variation sounds like the same one. There is no change in mood, emotion, key, dance form, compositional technique....
It's certainly not his best
@enrothable
the names bach and haendel are of an different caliber as liszt and chopin dont you think ?
and chopin was deeply influenced by mozart but never came close
bach mozart haendel are the top 3
You don't know and/or don't understand Liszt and Chopin; my condolences.
Linearly ranking composers is a pastime for non-musicians.
please, upload it somewhere!
Upload it? But I uploaded it already, here on UA-cam. I don't know what you mean exactly.
formally and mechanically. like midi player...(
Actually, it's in the French style, which is much harder to interpret from the sheet music than you may think, Flower of Flowers.
I prefer more inspired & improvised performances:
ua-cam.com/video/jjR-2Vahifg/v-deo.html
It's more consistent with the temperament of Handel's music
It's not bad but.... sounds formulaic.
I'd need to play it to understand it better.
+GeneHeim1 listen to HWV 435 by Perahia to hear something similar but on an instrument that actually has dynamics and articulation
sounds like bach 🤢🤮
are bad