I believe Morgoth was more powerful solely on that if you switched them during the times they were dark lords, Morgoth would’ve been successful conquering middle earth during the 3rd age and Sauron was defeated on his werewolf and vampire island during the 1st age. Also Sauron couldn’t corrupt elves with his rings, yes he corrupted and caused the downfall of Numenor, but men are easily corrupted. It took the Valar to bring down Morgoth, elves and men took down Sauron
I agree 100%. The comparison of the powers of the two is moot because all of Sauron's qualities did not come from his own will but from Morgoth when he sowed discord during the song of the Valar. Even Ungoliant is a result of that discord. A host of Valar had to hunt and chain Morgoth and they cannot even end him without Eru's intervention yet Sauron is no more. Why is this an argument in the first place?
Not taking away from Sauron but Morgoth had to deal with much more powerful enemies, the Valar HAD TO intervene in his case whereas for Sauron, they just sent the Istari who were prohibited from using their full power. This itself shows the power difference between the two. Both were successful in different ways.
This is true, but don't forget that morgoth also had much more to work with. Armies of Balrogs and dragons just to name a few. I think that morgoth was more powerful, sauron was smarter and more disciplined. I think that intelligence will beat raw power most of the time.
@@jonathanwhite8904 I do believe Sauron was more competent than Morgoth as he did manage to take down the Numenorians (who had previously helped the Valar to defeat Morgoth in the First Age) with his Manipulation alone but I don't know about him going as far as to beat Morgoth in an all out War setting between their forces at their peak (and Definitely not in a 1v1 Duel although neither of them are particularly skilled in combat). However, I do believe Sauron was a Greater Threat in the Third Age than Morgoth was in the First Age, although that's partly due to the Valar not being nearly as involved and also due to the fact that Morgoth's effect on the World made Sauron's Rise to Power possible.
I think a lot of people claim that Sauron is "evil to be evil" because they either only saw the movies or didn't read closely enough, but I think his motivation is quite human, in that we've seen it historically dozens of times. He thinks he knows best, probably even better than Melkor, and I think that makes him a scarier villain: the certainty that he was right.
When Frodo destroyed Sauron’s ring, the orcs were so devastated they went mad and died whereas when morgoth got hauled away they just looked for a new master. That says a lot for Sauron.
Sauron did not put a single guard at Mount Doom. Put the ring on his finger for a face to face fight with some human kings. I still don't know why he exploded when the ring got cut off. Just pick it up and put it on another finger.
@@jeffssttthat stuff about Sauron exploding is just in the movie for cinematic effect. In the book he is just killed and the ring is taken from his dead finger.
You do know that during the song of the Valar, Morgoth created all the evil in the world? He made Sauron the evil being he is. He is still chained in the void whereas Sauron no longer exists. I don't even understand this argument, when Morgoth is released, it would be the literal end of the world. That is how powerful he is. A whole host of Valar had to intervene to stop him and for Sauron, middle-earth was on its own and the only intervention was sending fellow maiar with reduced strength and Manwe ocassionally sending his eagles to aid the people. The pupil does not surpass the master.
@@ghostdreamer7272 True. The end of Morgoth=End of the world and that cannot happen until Eru is ready to remake the world afresh. How do you compare that to a Maiar that tricked men and couldnt even convince dwarves or elves to join him. Plus I am loving the comment section pointing out how Luthien and Huan beat his ass and he ran away like a punk. Morgoth had all of Valinor, including Tulkas who could never be bothered, after him.
Both of them ultimately failed because they were stopped by the forces of good but it's worth mentioning that the host that Morgoth had to face was so incredibly powerful that it makes the battles in the War of the Ring seem like just small skirmishes. There is a case for Sauron being more successful however since Eru himself had to intervene twice to stop Sauron's schemes.
If Eru intervenes indirectly does that really make Sauron formidable? I doubt it. A direct intervention would have met the threshold...yes Eru destroyed Numenor but even those Numenorians who got to Aman ended up being lost as for Gandalf, him coming back was strategic but I do not consider that a direct intervention of Eru to the peoples of middle-earth. Maybe there's a direct one you know that can help me understand your perspective.
@@Azulakayes I would say it does. Also I don't think they are talking about Gandalf coming back as one of those interventions, although they can correct me if I'm wrong. The two interventions that come to mind is Numenor and Gollum slipping into Mt. Doom. Gandalf coming back is an intervention by Eru, but it wasn't due to a direct result of Sauron's actions. Gandalf just had the misfortune of having to face a Balrog and they both ended up dying.
There would be no Sauron without Morgoth. Sauron HAD to be patient. He didn’t have the raw power of Morgoth. Had Sauron had the abilities and strength of Morgoth, he likely wouldn’t have been so subtle. A disadvantage Morgoth had was that he WAS a Valar and thus was always seen as a potential danger to the others of his kind. As to the power dispersement, it’s arguable that Sauron did the same with the ring wraith, with the example of the empowered Witch King who fought in the battle of Pelenor Fields. Sauron also learned from Morgoth’s mistakes which, combined with his lesser powers, caused him to be more cautious, patient, and subversive. I’ll also point out that, in the second during the creation of the rings, he was much more aggressive. His creation of the One Ring and discovery of the elvish rings made him go on the warpath. For movie only folks, something the Broken Sword neglected to mention was that, in the books, Sauron was killed by Elendil and Gil-galad and THEN had his finger severed. The One Ring was all that kept him alive. The One Ring, itself, was effectively a super powered phylactery or Horcrux, for those younger readers, albeit it without the halving his soul bit. Sauron was almost destroyed by Isildur and only due to the weakness of men was he not ended there and then. Had Elrond taken the ring instead, the 3rd age would’ve been an entirely different era.
Saurons existence was not reliant on Melkor. He choosed to take his masters mantel on purpose not because Melkor was influencing him. It is said his masters bonds were strong him and that he became corrupted on purpose.
@@Cloudrunner62 Saurons death at the hands of the Last Alliance was confirmed to be a weakening from his earlier death in Numenor. That is why Last Alliance was able to approach him and fight with him. Melkor was less wise than Sauron and that he understanded Music less clear than Sauron, suggesting that without any “mistake learning” Sauron was still more patient effective in the beginning. One Ring is not a horcrux Sauron could have been death even without it being destroyed and he was still in communication with the Ring. If Elrond had taken the ring he would be corrupted ( it is confirmed he could never destroy or cast the ring ) and that would be a better ending for Sauron
@@stilleswassermaximalist No. Elrond could’ve. Especially considering the short amount of time he’d have had it. The elves have great willpower. Men have the weakest.
Its funny because so often, from what I've read, Morgoth wasn't too hands-on; he only came out when he had to, and rarely seemed to use his unmatched power to simply crush his foes. Certainly, some of this was over the time where his personal strength was lessened, as he continued to divest himself into the world, to taint it, but we saw Sauron take to the field in those days, a whirling, shape-shifting beast, while his master armchair-general led from withon a fortress. Sauron did this too, eventually, as he knew how long it could take to regain himself when he had been killed, and Dark Lords tell others to fight, he at certain times felt more involved in things. On another hand, I feel Sauron may have been more effective simply because he had more achievable aspirations. Sauron wanted to rule the world, and instill in itvhis kind of order. Kill enough leaders, and heroes, build up enough forces, and that's doable. Morgoth seemed to want to literally destroy the world; his father's work, which i feel hecwas simply not capable of doing. Any damage he inflicted might be mended; any loss of life recouped in time, and the very world had been forged by hands he couldn't best. If he had shared Sauron's goal, he probably could have dominated the world, but while Sauron wanted to shape, Morgoth sought to rend, and destroy, and there were limits to how much if thatvhecwas capable of, even as Melkor. Sometimes, I thought he infused the world with his essence just to try and force the orher Valar to have to destroy their results, and be loke him.
Yeah idk know about that sauron was a schemer and not really a warrior the few times that he actually fought someone he was defeated the one victory he has is in a battle of magic against finrod felagund where as morgoth's defeats came at the hands of tulkas a valar and technology ungoliant a maiar (we think) both extremely powerful beings
@@jeffreym8503 Mmmh not really. Morgoth was captured not defeated unlike Sauron. Ungoliant isn't a Maiar. She is one of those things that were sowed at the beginning due to Morgoth creating discord in the song and perhaps that is why he didn't know the extent of her powers. The prophecy of Mandos on Dago Dagorath is yet to be fulfilled so it doesn't make any sense to say that Morgoth has been defeated, he is chained in the void.
@@Azulakayes to be captured they had to defeat him first right?... it's not like he just surrender on his own!!... secondly at no point does it say exactly what ungoliant is or isn't the only thing we know for sure is that she use to follow him (morgoth) but stopped after his first defeat or as you like to say capture!! as for the prophecy that is not canon because Tolkien later changed his mind on it which is why his son left it out
I think melkor was more of a creator of evil and a more single minded and extremely powerful dark lord by himself which made him less effective long term. Sauron was a more cunning and calculated dark lord especially with his battle strategies and his influential evil powers to turn good beings into evil beings like the ringwraiths and Saruman. I thought Sauron as a much more effective and lethal dark lord compared to morgoth. Even though morgoth has much more raw power compared to Sauron.
I disagree with the idea that sauron was more patient than melkor. Melkor does a lot of waiting and biding his time in his wars against the valar. He hides in the dark for 2000 valian years before returning and destroying the two lamps. He hides and waits a thousand valian years for the elves to awake. He endures his imprisonment by the valar for 300 valian years before being released, attempts to corrupt the noldor, steals the silamrils and destroys the two trees. He spends thousands of years hiding, working on his dark plans, corrupting creatures and twisting them to evil. Saurons patience in corrupting the numenoreans doesnt compare. He was on numenor for ~50 years. There is one dark lord. One being responsible for all discord, all misfortune, all chaos, all change. One being responsible for the seasons, for night and day, for rain and snow, for the sun and moon. One being responsible for reality as it is. His name is Melkor.
There's only one dark Lord. All the Valar know it, the Maiar know it, Sauron knew it, the eldar know it, the men of middle earth know it and even Illuvatar knows it.
Altough Morgoth conquered almost an entire Beleriand with his forces he did it all thanks to his countless armies and his powers as Strongest of the Valar, while Sauron destroyed Numenor, laid war, desolation, plauge over all Middle earth for thousand of yeras, all by himself, and every time he failed he had patience to recover his strenght and grow again! So for me Morgoth is an original badass villian, but Sauron deserves more respct/ if that makes any sense.? James as always great and interesting video!
@@rangerofthenorth1970 You said he “destroyed” Numenor among other things “all by himself”. He certainly did not have the power to sink Numenor into the sea, and if he had foreseen its destruction by Eru he could have found a way to leave the island rather than have his physical form destroyed and loose the ability to assume a fair form.
@@rangerofthenorth1970 Morgoth was the who made men fear death, which in reality was Eru’s gift to Men. Sauron just uses this fear that Morgoth initially placed into the hearts of men for his own purposes.
🙌🙌 One of your greatest videos yet. Sauron would not have defeated Morgoth directly, 1v1, but he was by far the superior evil with regards to goals and long-game strategy.
But all his long term strategies failed spectacularly and Morgoth is still alive. Morgoth's short-term discord during the song of the Valar led to every evil and all chaos in Arda so...
My interpretation is that, although driven mainly by anger and jealousy, Morgoth was bigger than Sauron in every way. Equally cunning as he proved to be in Valinor tricking the Noldor, equally strategic as he showed crushing the elven kingdoms in Middle Earth, but way more powerful than his lieutenant. It took a divine army to defeat him, while Sauron was beaten in his own field: an undercover operation. And let's not forget that Sauron himself was corrupted and bossed by Morgoth.
Simply no. Melkors deceiving was found after he left Feanor. Noldor knew who he was and Melkor still "corrupted" them not deceived them. Sauron was the "deceiver" Melkor was "corrupter". Did I mention that Sauron could shapeshift whereas Morgoth couldnt after 1 FA ?
@T A That dog was a maiar in the earlier drafts and later he was upgraded to be an equal to Thoronondor who fought with Ancalagon. Without Luthiens spell Huan fled before Sauron. The same Luthien that also kicked Morgoths ass. Valar didnt kill Sauron. Eru did Read Morgoths Ring. Tolkien here talks about how different Sauron and Morgoth were according to their method,motive and personalities. Sauron was not a lesser villian he was totally different. Tolkien even says Sauron in the Second Age was greater than the Morgoth in the First Age
@T A Umm no. Sauron lost his shapeshifting because of Eru. Saurons whole reason of turning evil was because of Morgoths power that is what motivated Sauron in the first place. That is not a flaw or weakness it is a move of cleverness. Umm Sauron actually didnt lose all fights he was in. He defeated Finrod and Celebrimbor and slew Gil Galad and Elendil in his weakest state. Tolkien described Morgoth as unvaliant while he described Sauron as opposite. Saurons moves of cunning was not a lack of might it was a move of choice. Sauron is still creating politics in the TA with words of honey although being the most powerfull being both in terms of personal might and armies. Morgoth never did that. Morgoth also lost to a man what a fate huh
Another fascinating dive. I love your perspective on Sauron’s cunning vs Morgoth’s might but wouldn’t think Sauron would have lasted very long alone in the first age. Folks were much mightier back then and with all his cleverness, Sauron was still whipped by Huan & Luthian!
Sauron was powerful in the 3rd age because the Valar chose not to intervene or have minimal intervention in middle-earth issues. If even a single Valar like Tulkas was to go after Sauron, there would be nothing to praise about his cunning or strategy.
“… In this way Sauron was also wiser than Morgoth. Sauron was not a beginner of discord; and he probably knew more of the “Music” than Morgoth did.” A manuscript by J.R.R.Tolkien, c. 1958, edited and published by Christopher Tolkien in MORGOTH’S RING, Houghton Mifflin, 1993
@@lalallallagunwolaaaa Tolkien mentions earlier in the paragraph that Morgoth was impatient and Sauron wasnt and that Melkor didnt give a shit to the thought of others while Sauron listened them. IN THIS WAY Sauron was wiser than Morgoth
@@lalallallagunwolaaaa Sauron is wiser in terms of his personality and how he can perceive and understand his enemies. Melkor has raw IQ and knowledge while Sauron has intellect and wisdom
The Characteristics of Sauron and Morgoth remind me a bit of that of Darth Vader and Palpatine. Except in Lotr it’s flipped. Sauron is more like Palpatine with his patience and cunning to infiltrate and manipulate in order to destroy his enemies, while Morgoth seems a bit like Darth Vader/ Anakin in his lack of patience and quick desire to destroy his enemies. Sauron also reminds me of the Rule of Two in which the Sith would use patience and manipulation to destroy the Jedi rather than using the methods of brute force and all out war of the Old Sith order sort of like Morgoth.
Melkor was mainly dealing with Elves while Sauron was mainly dealing with men. Elven kingdom are more normally stable because leadership didn’t change and they were corrupted less easily. While Sauron had to deal with men kingdoms, leadership that change a lot. And men can be corrupted in a heartbeat.
Morgoth mainly dealt with the Valar. He had no use for elves except to torture and corrupt them into the first orcs and to kill them because he felt like it. If you read the Silmarillion you would realise his objective was to destroy everything Eru created and all the works of his fellow Valar because he wanted Arda to be his. The Valar would raise mountains, he would flatten them. They would make rivers, he would make them into infested and poisonous swamps. He destroyed the two trees for no reason. He tortured elves for no reason. His goal is to beat Illuvatar so elves or the Valar and men are not what irks him.
Morgoth is more successful than Sauron due to conquering the entirety of middle earth during the first age and covered all the lands in darkness, necessitating the return of the valar to defeat him, While Sauron in comparison never managed the complete subjugation of his foes at any single point and was ultimately defeated by them and their forces in the end.
Morgoth left the "infrastructure of evil" (including the Morgoth element dispersed in the world, without which the system of control within the rings of power would be impossible) for Sauron to more carefully take advantage of. Sauron never had the raw innate power to create all this from scratch. Thus, the entire second and third ages could be called the "ages of Morgoth's legacy". Sauron surpassed Morgoth in the "wisdom of evil", he was more patient and had more "evil pragmatical" objectives.
Sauron was an evil that actually could last because he wished to build a kingdom. Morgoth just wanted to tear down, and thus anyone with actual sense wouldnt follow him. Meanwhile, Sauron was able to convince many human rulers to bow to him due to him promising power. Sauron appealed to people who wanted to rule, and he let them rule as long as they were under him (Like the Witch King). Melkor is just the mental illness of the universe basically and I think that is ultimately what his allegory really is.
Technically, Melkor was able to be quite cunning and deceptive also, not just brute strength: the division of the Noldor from the Valar and the conflict of Feanor and Fingolfin was started by Melkor's Deceptions, the Betrayal of some of the Easterling during the Battle of Unnumbered Tears. Plus, in one note, Melkor's imprisonment in Valinor was due to Melkor faking repentance and surrendering (though him then being imprisoned wasn't what he thought pretending to surrender and fake redemption would result in when brought to Valinor, according the that same note).
Of course Melkor successfully corrupted/tempted the Noldor in Valinor, directly under the gaze of the Valar. Gotta say that seems a more impressive act of seduction/manipulation than Sauron in Numenor. But then Melkor increasingly diminished not only in power but stature. As did Sauron, in the end in the equivalent of a single blow.
Noldor knew who he was and what he was capable of. Numenoreans had no idea about Saurons power. That being said; Melkor was able to corrupt them without need of the skill with words. He created disorder and corruption about them. Sauron didnt do such things in his time in Eregion. In Numenor he was deceiving them, not corrupting them outright. There is a difference
Counter point: Morgoth won. After the Battle of Unnumbered Tears, Morgoth was effectively Lord of all Beleriand. He began razing entire kingdoms - climaxing with Gondolin - and nothing could stop him. The only thing that stopped him were entirely new and fresh hosts from Valinor.
But how would Sauron fair against the forces of the elves and men of the 1st age. I think bringing Morgoth to the 3rd age and Sauron to the 1st age (as the main dark lord), would result in Morgoth coming across far superior (not just in raw power).
@Oğuzhan Enes Çetin to me that is not an argument that makes sense - that is like saying "give Melkor the tactical strengths of Sauron". It is Melkor vs Sauron with their inherent strengths and weaknesses, not Melkor vs Sauron "but if Sauron had his strengths + Melkors strengths" - how is that fair?
Let's take away Melkors physical power. But he retains his ability to cultivate dragons - imagine the likes of Ancalagon and Glaurung in the 3rd age + multiple Balrogs (Gothmog in particular). Who was a more effective dark Lord. Absolutely Melkor. Who was more cunning against a considerably weaker enemy, Sauron - I don't see how that makes him the more successful dark lord. When the ring was destroyed, it was gone. Morgoths Ring remains until the end of everything.
Another big point is Melkor literally formed the race that is the enemy of the 3 people's of middle earth (can't be more impactful than that. Sauron was standing on the shoulder of a giant.
@@CoachJCurtis Everything you mentioned here is a testiment to his power not succsess. Effective, yes more succesfull ? No. He cant control his dragons and Balrogs without his pyshicall power to begin with.
Morgoths motivation was he was jelous of Eru's ability to create so he could only pretend to create by corruption of what already existed. Morgoth had more raw power than Sauron but Sauron's motivation was to rule ane bring order and influence. I think that is what gave hime the patience becasue their goals were different.
Sauron was a sower of discord & chaos. Morgorth was the literal progenitor of chaos. For this reason it is silly to me why this could even be a question of debate. Yes they had different aspirations but it is very clear who was #1 and who was #2. Morgoth > Sauron. Obviously
The way i look at it is that Tolkien originally framed his creation as an alternative history to the british isles. He envisaged an anglo saxon travelling to an island and being told the tales of middle earth. Morgoth particularly hated the elves. The elves might all be in valinor living happily ever after, but there are no elves today in what was once middle earth, so you can argue that morgoth was at the very least, partially successful. As for Sauron, his war was more against men (and women) rather than the elves. In the fourth age, humans became a lot more prolific and there are plenty of humans today, so Sauron failed when it came to holding sway over all humanity.
One thing is certain, Sauron was defeated by the Numenor and the Elves. Numenor and the Elves could never have defeated Morgoth without the help of the Valar.
I have never really understood this debate for the very reason you said. The Gods had to work together to fight/subdue Melkor, the greatest of all the Valor. Sauron was one of Melkor’s minions, and that is that. If their roles had been somehow reversed chronologically in accord with canon, and it was Melkor/Morgoth rather than Sauron wreaking havoc in the Third Age, Melkor would have quickly defeated all the combined armies of ME. Oh, and while we’re at it, Ungoliant >>> Shelob. Obviously.
Given Sauron's level of power and Morgoth's power, yes!! Sauron achieved many things with regard to his power, on the contrary with Melkor, who was wasting it. Sauron had a role in all of Melkor's evil actions against Arda. This means that all of Melkor's actions, such as destroying the lamps or creating dragons, Sauron had a role in them in one way or another, and we should not forget that he forced Eru to intervene as a result of his actions.
I wonder what a Melkor vs Sauron war would be like. Say Melkor returned to Middle-earth while Sauron was distracted in Numenor, and Sauron didn’t feel like becoming #2 again.
IMO, there is no debate. While the pupil did become the master, Sauron did not fill a single shoe Morgoth left. Morgoth faced god level oppositions. Meanwhile Sauron faced weakened versions of other Maiars, but never full interventions from Valars. Makes you think about what Eru was up to. As if he was making it so that the fight between his children was fair ay?
@@perhamill Only perhaps to reveal that he realized he messed up by sending Maiars with a fraction of their power. He didn’t have to do much with Morgoth because the Valars were involved directly.
Saruman was never truly in Saurons plan though. That was just another scheme to use Sarumans lust for power to wage war against Rohan and thus weaken two enemies to Mordor. Three enemies if you count in Gondor as Rohan would aid them during the final siege. Sauron calculated rightly that Saruman would take the Ring once great enough.
You know, even though there are some differences between them, I almost compare Morgoth and Sauron with Megatron and Starscream. Morgoth, like Megatron, was powerful and often saw brute force as the only way to achieve one’s ends, though maybe in some incarnations Megatron was pretty patient and intelligent too. While Sauron I compare with Starscream, since both are a lot more cunning and underhanded than the masters they serve and know how to manipulate people. Not sure if Sauron ever had any aspirations to usurp Morgoth before he was cast into the timeless void, but he certainly did seem to be pretty comely taking on the title of being Morgoth returned. (Though it would seem to me that Sauron was a lot more successful than Starscream ever was.) anyone else agree with me on all that?
Sauron only took the mantle of Dark Lord because he knew that Morgoth would never return to claim the throne. In my opinion, Sauron would never have dared to challenge Morgoth. In Numenor, he became the high priest of a religion which have Morgoth as a deity. Arguably the maia had his own agenda, but the vala was always the master, even in absence.
I seen another comment saying Tolkien could have compared morgoth and sauron to world war 1 and 2 Morgoth/WWI Germany was just doing it to destroy their enemies and sauron/WWII was for dominance control and malevolent order.
simply stated, no! Sauron doesnt come close to matching Morgoth in terms of success in any category. Whether it be territory, time in power, power levels of servants or really anything, Sauron doesn't even come close.
I have to say this question has a easy awnser...morgoth was the better dark lord. While both had their own strengths and weakensses and both had sucesses and failures...morgoth had to contend with much more powerful enemies.
The only thing that makes me sad is that young people nowadays don't really know Tolkien and his legendary books. They things like game of thrones. If they wanted to make movies, series and video games, nothing would match it
In terms of fulfilling thier own goals, Sauron id say is more successful. He got very close to victory by the end of LOTR. Considering how the ring was destroyed, Saurons defeat could almost be considered a fluke. Melkor on the otherhand likely couldnt have destoyed all creation and even if he could, he really didnt get that close.
Yeah I don't agree with some of this like the valar didn't intervene the way they did with morgoth because they knew that it was within the power of the elves and men (and dwarves) to defeat sauron which is why they only set the astari to give aid through mainly council with morgoth the only way the people's of arda would ever triumph against morgoth would be with the aid of the valar
sauron succeed more because the valar decided not to directly confront him and mostly leave the matter to those who are in middle earth, if the valar directly had been involved sauron was long defeated permanently
Imagine if Tulkas hunted Sauron the way he did Morgoth, would he still exist? Even Luthien and Huan beat him and Luthien destroyed his fortress in a heartbeat. Just because Sauron used cunning to defeat mere elves and humans, apparently he is more powerful than Morgoth who caused discord in the song of the Valar, corrupted several Maiar(including Sauron and the Balrogs)changed the shape of Arda, destroyed the two trees with Ungoliant, made orcs, made dragons(?) etc and it took a host of Valar descending from Valinor to capture him. So now he is hanging out in the void waiting to destroy Arda once more. Seriously?
Tolkien's Christianity probably gives us a big clue: all things are dimmer reflections of their past glory. Each age is an order dimmer. Sauron may have been more successful, but only in the way that a child might be more successful in building a sand castle than an adult may be in building a skyscraper, but that doesn't make the child a better architect.
Sauron was more stupid than Morgoth because he put most of his power into a tiny ring and then took it onto a battlefield. But i gather even the valor could lose power if they used a whole lot of it at once. For example, to begin with Melkor was the 2nd most powerful entity after Illiavatar. It took all the rest of the valor to defeat just him. But towards the end of the simillarion, he'd put so much of his hatred and malice into middle earth, he'd lost a lot of his power. Fingolfin was able to take him on and permanently wound him, as well as the king of the eagles. Luthian was able to sneak into Angbad and enchant him, but then her magic was almost used up when it came to escaping again. And Sauron did rebuild his army of orcs, balrogs and dragons for him for when he returned to middle earth, not glaurung or gothmog. So to say that Melkor was more powerful than sauron is undoubtedly true, sauron only being miair. But was morgoth more powerful than sauron was after using up so much of his magic, he couldnt even shape change at the end? Who knows?
The way I see it, Morgoth had a MUCH higher threshold for damage and destruction he could have caused, yet Sauron was a much more strategic and cunning dark lord. Morgoth was a force of nature, an earthquake taken shape and he could have caused catastrophic destruction. Sauron was more like a condensed laser, or a controlled fire. He didn't just want to destroy for the sake of destruction, he wanted to rule. Morgoth was stronger without a doubt and probably brought more fear when his name was mentioned, yet Sauron was more effective in bringing Middle Earth to its knees with his deceit and cunning strategic planning.
Sauron was more powerful because he wielded Morgoths power. Morgoth poured his power in the middle earth. His essence remains, and with it, sauron was more powerful than morgoth. He commanded morgoths corrupted beings. These beings possessed the essence and will of morgoth. Sauron commanded sorcery... Latent power of morgoth... To twist the music of the valor. This is saurons strength
I don't think the question of whether Sauron would have done worse if he took Morgoth's place. In that sinario all his cunning would be useless, he would likely be overthrown, or loss part of his kingdom, by another of Morgoth's captains who are just as powerful as him, and if this did not happen he would be brought down by the might of the elves.
Before i even watch i do have to say that i choose sauron in your post on who's the better dark lord (not because i didn't read the books but because sauron has many ways and many weapons literal and metaphorical to make his plans work)
"More Successful" is inherantly subjective. Both were defeated. Sauron was taken out by Gollum seeking out the Ring. Morgoth was beaten by Tulkas (Valar of War) and will fall to Turin in LOTR's Ragnarok. Sauron's was a planner, but his mistake waas not seeing the opportunity in Morgoth's defeat. He knows all of Valafr's possible plans & strategies. If he had timed it right, the Valar might have gifted Sauron with his own kingdom like Numenor, a place to create perfect order. All Sauron needed to do was betray Morgoth at the last minute & maybe fight for the Elves. That's all the Edain had to do
What-if video idea for you to do: What if Gandalf never fell at the Bridge of Khazad-dum and continued with the fellowship to Lothlorien and on forward?
Look ,Melkor won every battle before War of powers, he was so close to dominating everything if not Tulkas.The first age is ending cinematic for Him , even at the end host of valar could loose to Ancalagon
Success also means knowing when to fight, and when not to engage. Melkor / Morgoth was a coward, but always invited conflict and betrayed his collaborators. He was just foolish in a way Sauron was not, though as always we would never attempt to say anyone commenting is wrong, and we can disagree without being disagreeable to one another. I think you have a good point. [I authored the script, so it was a natural urge to reply and speak with you on this issue as I sense you brought it up not as a 'gotcha' but as a point of counterfactual made in good faith. Cheers man, talking about / debating Tolkien and his characters, world and ideas makes the world he created all the more wonderful and the community is better for its inclusion of thoughtful and keen eyed individuals such as yourself, as your point is well taken! -bran
Um… don’t honk so… Sauron’s relative weakness forced on him what you see as a strength; his need to be pacient and rely on deception instead of raw power. The siege of Sauron last 12 years? The siege of Morgoth’s Angbang lasted 400 years… Sauron’s relative weakness is made apparent by the fact that Sauron had to pour so much of his own power into the one ring (and to a lesser extent its subsidiary rings) that his power/campaign was significantly compromised without the one ring, and his existence fatally compromised by the ring’s destruction. Cheers
Nice perspective. If you have the power to change the shape of the earth, you do not need cunning. Maybe Morgoth should have been more strategic in how to defeat the Valar but comparing his power to Sauron's and saying Sauron(who is now nothing without spirit or form) is more powerful is pretty presumptuous.
Sauron wouldn't have lasted 5 minutes against the combined noldor if Morgoth and his creations like Glaurung hadnt destroyed them first. It took the combined force of the valar and elves of the undying lands to overthrow Morgoth. Sauron benefitted from the valar withdrawing from middle earth and acting via the istari instead, and the many mighy noldor lords of old being killed, and both men and elves being diminished
Gonna give it to Morgoth. Fooled the gods twice while, Sauron tricked some mortals and elves for a bit. Morgoth fortified Thangorodrim and defeated Feanor and outlasted Thingol. Sauron got spooked and tipped his hand trying to get the ring back while waging all out war, instead of doing one or the other. Morgoth only beaten when alllll gods dogpile on him. Sauron defeated/ drowned by his own scheme, and then finished off by his own malice in so hopelessly enslaving a hobbit type critter. Morgoth fated to return for one more battle. Sauron nerfed permanently 🤷♂️
Morgoth also was captured and used cunning to deceive his captors Additionally, it is shown over and over again that morgoth laid plans successfully again and again against the rest of the valor through cunning and deceipt. I don't see these as uniquely sauron traits
Thanks. Sauron had the benefit of observing his master's mistakes. But being a Maia, he was used to a more subservient position by his very nature. Serving under a supreme ego like that of Melkor would've made him more careful & introspective of necessity. One must also consider the level of opposition. I seriously doubt Mordor - and Sauron - could have withstood a combined onslaught of the Elves, Dwarves, & Men who battled Melkor & Thangorodrim, ring or no ring. In my estimation, Sauron without Melkor would've had no chance against those early enemies, and even a diminished Melkor would've easily overmastered the poor souls of the third age. tavi.
If Salron and Melkor had swapped places and power, Melkor would’ve been a stronger Balrog, but Salron would’ve beaten the Valar (unless Uru’Illuvitar stepped in)
Morgoth and Sauron had different goals which you even kinda touch on in this video. Morgoth worked against the works of the Valar while Sauron sought rulership of Middle-Earth. Both made mistakes and both had great successes. Sauron destroyed Numenor but I would argue it was only after he antagonize them and then realized he wouldn't win the fight. So he let himself become captured and then destroyed Numenor but that also led to the destruction of his physical form and when he finally regained it, he could no longer shape-shift as he had before. Morgoth, on the other hand, lost his battle against the Valar and then was able to destroy the two trees afterwards. But again, he misjudged Shelob in a similar way to how Sauron would misjudge his ability to survive the the destruction of Numenor. Neither one of them succeeded in their goals so I would say I would disagree with your conclusion that Sauron seems to have succeeded wear Morgoth failed and further would disagree with the idea that Sauron even could succeed where Morgoth as ultimately they were trying to achieve two different things. If you want to say Sauron is more cunning sure. And Morgoth even at his weakest is more powerful. What's more I'd go so far as to say Morgoth's story was never completed as he has yet to return through the doorof night but Sauron has been laid so low as to never be able to return (if I recall he was not truly killed but instead reduced to a wraith that could no longer truly interact with the world). So Morgoth still has a chance to win (though i believe it's propsized that he won't) whereas Sauron has no chance at all.
Honestly, it seems like you can't really compare their level of "success," as their objectives were completely different. Melkor's entire purpose was the wreak everyone's shit solely because he was a petty dick, whereas Sauron was actually trying to will a specific order into the world. It's like asking if a serial killer was more "successful" than the corrupt mayor of a town. Successful at what? How do you even go about comparing the two?
Love your analogy. That's why videos like this comparing powers are annoying. Morgoth made Sauron who he is. Morgoth is a Valar. Morgoth is the most powerful Valar Eru created. Now how do you compare the two. You can compare their methods but never their powers. If there was to be a comparison video I would appreciate it would be Morgoth vs Aüle/Manwë/Ulmo/Tulkas, those are his peers. Heck, even Morgoth vs Eru to humor Morgoth's ambitions.
Possible video and question for you When Sauron sewed disinformation and discontent when he was imprisoned. Just using the power persuasion and its voice. Could Saruman have done the same if he had surrendered to Gandalf after the fall of Isengard. (I only ever saw the Peter Jackson movies, I'm not sure how much that part may have differed from the books) Apologies for any misspellings.
Morgoth won the war for Beleriand with Children of Illuvatar, destroyed their kingdoms and only intervention of hosts of Valar brought him down. Sauron's plans were thwarted time and again by Elves and Men. He was beaten by them many times and never got full control of the Western Middle Earth. Sauron was cunning, cowardly and scheming. He had his own great successes, but none of them was even close to breaking Noldor kingdoms of old. They were all partial at best (like destruction of the Numenor, which cost him dearly). He was a self-defeating evil and Free Peoples were enough to bring him down more than once. Wizards were crucial in his final downfall, but they were no hosts of Manwe, just advisors and mentors.
I don't know, I feel like we're talking about two different worlds here. Morgoths foes are almost exponentially more powerful than anything Sauron faced. Almost like the NFL/PL vs Pee Wee/Under-12s.
_Was he more evil than his master?_ I wouldn't say so. Rather he was evil in a more adult way. Melkor lka Morgoth felt ashamed and offended (in German we say "er war eine beleidigte Leberwurst") because he had been rebuked by Eru, so he - no, not turned to but - _invented_ evil.
Morgoth embedded enduring evil into Arda, Sauron was influenced by Morgoth, Morgoth power was put into autonomous evil, whereas Sauron wanted power where Morgoth gave his power to evil. Sauron is but a shadow or ripple of Morgoth’s evil placed upon and within Arda.
Morgoth's Ring discusses why Melkor was far worse. Sauron made a piece of gold his ring, but his master infected the whole world with his evil, injecting his own version of Original Sin in Earth's very matter, effectively becoming his Ur-Ring of Power...😢
I respectfully disagree with your premise. Morgoth sought dominance through brute strength because he was stronger than any being except one. Sauron could not take the same approach, as he was weaker in power, so he had to rely upon his cunning and wits. Both wielded the tools they had available to them in the best way they knew. By all accounts, Sauron revered Morgoth.
In may ways I think Sauron pushed himself and his boundaries further than Morgoth did, however I disagree that he was more intelligent. Where as Saurons motivations were originally pure, he is a bigger fool than Morgoth in that he repeated his masters mistakes, more than once and a real fool is a person that makes the same mistake more than once. Sauron sought to manipulate the civilisations using the rings of power, however his primary target, the elves can feel his presence and refuse to wear the rings whilst he has the one, dwarves are imperious to his influence and manipulation, with only men yielding to his will, but no right person would willing follow a Nazgûl, given that they only inspire fear. His great plan therefore failed and he reverted to his masters plan of domination via force, which failed him in at least 4 separate occasions. This does not sound like an intelligent person to me. On top of his he brings the wrath of god upon him, as the sinking of numenor is an action of direct intervention by Eru. Then on after God or fate, always seems to swing against him. Again Sauron has seen his creator, he knows his power and still thinks he can defy him. Morgoth is more one dimensional than Sauron, and he is less subtle, but what more do you expect from the father of all evil.
Without Melkor and him corrupting the music and arda and creating the fell creatures, Sauron would have absolutely nothing. This is a no brainer. Everything Sauron did and accomplished is entirely owed to Melkor
Sauron could not have done so much harm, had Melkor not subverted all those creatures to evil
Including subverting Sauron to begin with.
I believe Morgoth was more powerful solely on that if you switched them during the times they were dark lords, Morgoth would’ve been successful conquering middle earth during the 3rd age and Sauron was defeated on his werewolf and vampire island during the 1st age. Also Sauron couldn’t corrupt elves with his rings, yes he corrupted and caused the downfall of Numenor, but men are easily corrupted. It took the Valar to bring down Morgoth, elves and men took down Sauron
I agree 100%. The comparison of the powers of the two is moot because all of Sauron's qualities did not come from his own will but from Morgoth when he sowed discord during the song of the Valar. Even Ungoliant is a result of that discord. A host of Valar had to hunt and chain Morgoth and they cannot even end him without Eru's intervention yet Sauron is no more. Why is this an argument in the first place?
@@Azulakayes Not an argument but rather a point of discussion among friends
The question isn't who more powerful. The question is who was more successful. Sauron did more with less clearly.
Not taking away from Sauron but Morgoth had to deal with much more powerful enemies, the Valar HAD TO intervene in his case whereas for Sauron, they just sent the Istari who were prohibited from using their full power. This itself shows the power difference between the two.
Both were successful in different ways.
This is true, but don't forget that morgoth also had much more to work with. Armies of Balrogs and dragons just to name a few. I think that morgoth was more powerful, sauron was smarter and more disciplined. I think that intelligence will beat raw power most of the time.
@@jonathanwhite8904 Not if raw power difference is just too big.
@@jonathanwhite8904 I do believe Sauron was more competent than Morgoth as he did manage to take down the Numenorians (who had previously helped the Valar to defeat Morgoth in the First Age) with his Manipulation alone but I don't know about him going as far as to beat Morgoth in an all out War setting between their forces at their peak (and Definitely not in a 1v1 Duel although neither of them are particularly skilled in combat).
However, I do believe Sauron was a Greater Threat in the Third Age than Morgoth was in the First Age, although that's partly due to the Valar not being nearly as involved and also due to the fact that Morgoth's effect on the World made Sauron's Rise to Power possible.
melkor just wanted utter destruction, whereas sauron wanted utter dominance.
Did he desire order or to dominate? Do you think it was both?
@@samdustinchrisorder under his dominion
@@TETASARAIVACS Okay, I dig it
I think a lot of people claim that Sauron is "evil to be evil" because they either only saw the movies or didn't read closely enough, but I think his motivation is quite human, in that we've seen it historically dozens of times. He thinks he knows best, probably even better than Melkor, and I think that makes him a scarier villain: the certainty that he was right.
They were both the same, they were both democrats
When Frodo destroyed Sauron’s ring, the orcs were so devastated they went mad and died whereas when morgoth got hauled away they just looked for a new master. That says a lot for Sauron.
Sauron did not put a single guard at Mount Doom. Put the ring on his finger for a face to face fight with some human kings. I still don't know why he exploded when the ring got cut off. Just pick it up and put it on another finger.
@@jeffssttthat stuff about Sauron exploding is just in the movie for cinematic effect. In the book he is just killed and the ring is taken from his dead finger.
You do know that during the song of the Valar, Morgoth created all the evil in the world? He made Sauron the evil being he is. He is still chained in the void whereas Sauron no longer exists. I don't even understand this argument, when Morgoth is released, it would be the literal end of the world. That is how powerful he is. A whole host of Valar had to intervene to stop him and for Sauron, middle-earth was on its own and the only intervention was sending fellow maiar with reduced strength and Manwe ocassionally sending his eagles to aid the people. The pupil does not surpass the master.
FYI, Orcs are not dead in the legendarium. Their creator Morgoth still exists and they also still exist.
Had not been any substitute for Morgoth then what would the orcs do?
Nevertheless, Morgoth’s Ring endured, while Sauron’s was destroyed
Because destroying Morgoth’s ring would destroy all the good too, before its time
@@ghostdreamer7272
Exactly - it’s a level of corruption that was way deeper and more thorough than anything Sauron was capable of.
@@ghostdreamer7272 True. The end of Morgoth=End of the world and that cannot happen until Eru is ready to remake the world afresh. How do you compare that to a Maiar that tricked men and couldnt even convince dwarves or elves to join him. Plus I am loving the comment section pointing out how Luthien and Huan beat his ass and he ran away like a punk. Morgoth had all of Valinor, including Tulkas who could never be bothered, after him.
Both of them ultimately failed because they were stopped by the forces of good but it's worth mentioning that the host that Morgoth had to face was so incredibly powerful that it makes the battles in the War of the Ring seem like just small skirmishes. There is a case for Sauron being more successful however since Eru himself had to intervene twice to stop Sauron's schemes.
If Eru intervenes indirectly does that really make Sauron formidable? I doubt it. A direct intervention would have met the threshold...yes Eru destroyed Numenor but even those Numenorians who got to Aman ended up being lost as for Gandalf, him coming back was strategic but I do not consider that a direct intervention of Eru to the peoples of middle-earth. Maybe there's a direct one you know that can help me understand your perspective.
@@Azulakayes I would say it does. Also I don't think they are talking about Gandalf coming back as one of those interventions, although they can correct me if I'm wrong. The two interventions that come to mind is Numenor and Gollum slipping into Mt. Doom. Gandalf coming back is an intervention by Eru, but it wasn't due to a direct result of Sauron's actions. Gandalf just had the misfortune of having to face a Balrog and they both ended up dying.
Sauron didn't foresee the future as much as he understood the motivations of people and was able to manipulate them into doing things they shouldn't.
There would be no Sauron without Morgoth.
Sauron HAD to be patient. He didn’t have the raw power of Morgoth. Had Sauron had the abilities and strength of Morgoth, he likely wouldn’t have been so subtle. A disadvantage Morgoth had was that he WAS a Valar and thus was always seen as a potential danger to the others of his kind. As to the power dispersement, it’s arguable that Sauron did the same with the ring wraith, with the example of the empowered Witch King who fought in the battle of Pelenor Fields.
Sauron also learned from Morgoth’s mistakes which, combined with his lesser powers, caused him to be more cautious, patient, and subversive. I’ll also point out that, in the second during the creation of the rings, he was much more aggressive. His creation of the One Ring and discovery of the elvish rings made him go on the warpath. For movie only folks, something the Broken Sword neglected to mention was that, in the books, Sauron was killed by Elendil and Gil-galad and THEN had his finger severed. The One Ring was all that kept him alive.
The One Ring, itself, was effectively a super powered phylactery or Horcrux, for those younger readers, albeit it without the halving his soul bit. Sauron was almost destroyed by Isildur and only due to the weakness of men was he not ended there and then. Had Elrond taken the ring instead, the 3rd age would’ve been an entirely different era.
Saurons existence was not reliant on Melkor. He choosed to take his masters mantel on purpose not because Melkor was influencing him. It is said his masters bonds were strong him and that he became corrupted on purpose.
@@oguzhanenescetin5702 I’m aware. I just added to my comment. Might wanna look at my edit. You make a good point though.
@@Cloudrunner62 Saurons death at the hands of the Last Alliance was confirmed to be a weakening from his earlier death in Numenor. That is why Last Alliance was able to approach him and fight with him. Melkor was less wise than Sauron and that he understanded Music less clear than Sauron, suggesting that without any “mistake learning” Sauron was still more patient effective in the beginning. One Ring is not a horcrux Sauron could have been death even without it being destroyed and he was still in communication with the Ring. If Elrond had taken the ring he would be corrupted ( it is confirmed he could never destroy or cast the ring ) and that would be a better ending for Sauron
Elrond wouldn't have had the strenght to destroy the ring either. Nobody can willingly destroy the ring.
@@stilleswassermaximalist No. Elrond could’ve. Especially considering the short amount of time he’d have had it. The elves have great willpower. Men have the weakest.
Its funny because so often, from what I've read, Morgoth wasn't too hands-on; he only came out when he had to, and rarely seemed to use his unmatched power to simply crush his foes. Certainly, some of this was over the time where his personal strength was lessened, as he continued to divest himself into the world, to taint it, but we saw Sauron take to the field in those days, a whirling, shape-shifting beast, while his master armchair-general led from withon a fortress. Sauron did this too, eventually, as he knew how long it could take to regain himself when he had been killed, and Dark Lords tell others to fight, he at certain times felt more involved in things.
On another hand, I feel Sauron may have been more effective simply because he had more achievable aspirations. Sauron wanted to rule the world, and instill in itvhis kind of order. Kill enough leaders, and heroes, build up enough forces, and that's doable. Morgoth seemed to want to literally destroy the world; his father's work, which i feel hecwas simply not capable of doing. Any damage he inflicted might be mended; any loss of life recouped in time, and the very world had been forged by hands he couldn't best. If he had shared Sauron's goal, he probably could have dominated the world, but while Sauron wanted to shape, Morgoth sought to rend, and destroy, and there were limits to how much if thatvhecwas capable of, even as Melkor. Sometimes, I thought he infused the world with his essence just to try and force the orher Valar to have to destroy their results, and be loke him.
Yeah idk know about that sauron was a schemer and not really a warrior the few times that he actually fought someone he was defeated the one victory he has is in a battle of magic against finrod felagund where as morgoth's defeats came at the hands of tulkas a valar and technology ungoliant a maiar (we think) both extremely powerful beings
@@jeffreym8503 Mmmh not really. Morgoth was captured not defeated unlike Sauron. Ungoliant isn't a Maiar. She is one of those things that were sowed at the beginning due to Morgoth creating discord in the song and perhaps that is why he didn't know the extent of her powers. The prophecy of Mandos on Dago Dagorath is yet to be fulfilled so it doesn't make any sense to say that Morgoth has been defeated, he is chained in the void.
@@Azulakayes to be captured they had to defeat him first right?... it's not like he just surrender on his own!!... secondly at no point does it say exactly what ungoliant is or isn't the only thing we know for sure is that she use to follow him (morgoth) but stopped after his first defeat or as you like to say capture!! as for the prophecy that is not canon because Tolkien later changed his mind on it which is why his son left it out
I think melkor was more of a creator of evil and a more single minded and extremely powerful dark lord by himself which made him less effective long term. Sauron was a more cunning and calculated dark lord especially with his battle strategies and his influential evil powers to turn good beings into evil beings like the ringwraiths and Saruman. I thought Sauron as a much more effective and lethal dark lord compared to morgoth. Even though morgoth has much more raw power compared to Sauron.
I disagree with the idea that sauron was more patient than melkor. Melkor does a lot of waiting and biding his time in his wars against the valar. He hides in the dark for 2000 valian years before returning and destroying the two lamps. He hides and waits a thousand valian years for the elves to awake. He endures his imprisonment by the valar for 300 valian years before being released, attempts to corrupt the noldor, steals the silamrils and destroys the two trees.
He spends thousands of years hiding, working on his dark plans, corrupting creatures and twisting them to evil. Saurons patience in corrupting the numenoreans doesnt compare. He was on numenor for ~50 years.
There is one dark lord. One being responsible for all discord, all misfortune, all chaos, all change. One being responsible for the seasons, for night and day, for rain and snow, for the sun and moon. One being responsible for reality as it is. His name is Melkor.
Tolkien himself said Sauron was more patient lmao
There's only one dark Lord. All the Valar know it, the Maiar know it, Sauron knew it, the eldar know it, the men of middle earth know it and even Illuvatar knows it.
Tolkien literallt said that Sauron was say more patient
Altough Morgoth conquered almost an entire Beleriand with his forces he did it all thanks to his countless armies and his powers as Strongest of the Valar, while Sauron destroyed Numenor, laid war, desolation, plauge over all Middle earth for thousand of yeras, all by himself, and every time he failed he had patience to recover his strenght and grow again!
So for me Morgoth is an original badass villian, but Sauron deserves more respct/ if that makes any sense.?
James as always great and interesting video!
Sauron didn’t destroy Númenor - it was Eru who sundered the land and sank the island he had raised back it to the sea.
@@kardy12 Yes, but it were Sauron's actions that led Pharazon and his fleet to the coasts of Valinor wich led Eru to sink the whole Numenor...
@@rangerofthenorth1970
You said he “destroyed” Numenor among other things “all by himself”. He certainly did not have the power to sink Numenor into the sea, and if he had foreseen its destruction by Eru he could have found a way to leave the island rather than have his physical form destroyed and loose the ability to assume a fair form.
@@rangerofthenorth1970 Morgoth was the who made men fear death, which in reality was Eru’s gift to Men. Sauron just uses this fear that Morgoth initially placed into the hearts of men for his own purposes.
🙌🙌 One of your greatest videos yet. Sauron would not have defeated Morgoth directly, 1v1, but he was by far the superior evil with regards to goals and long-game strategy.
But all his long term strategies failed spectacularly and Morgoth is still alive. Morgoth's short-term discord during the song of the Valar led to every evil and all chaos in Arda so...
My interpretation is that, although driven mainly by anger and jealousy, Morgoth was bigger than Sauron in every way. Equally cunning as he proved to be in Valinor tricking the Noldor, equally strategic as he showed crushing the elven kingdoms in Middle Earth, but way more powerful than his lieutenant. It took a divine army to defeat him, while Sauron was beaten in his own field: an undercover operation. And let's not forget that Sauron himself was corrupted and bossed by Morgoth.
Simply no. Melkors deceiving was found after he left Feanor. Noldor knew who he was and Melkor still "corrupted" them not deceived them. Sauron was the "deceiver" Melkor was "corrupter". Did I mention that Sauron could shapeshift whereas Morgoth couldnt after 1 FA ?
@T A That dog was a maiar in the earlier drafts and later he was upgraded to be an equal to Thoronondor who fought with Ancalagon. Without Luthiens spell Huan fled before Sauron. The same Luthien that also kicked Morgoths ass.
Valar didnt kill Sauron. Eru did
Read Morgoths Ring. Tolkien here talks about how different Sauron and Morgoth were according to their method,motive and personalities. Sauron was not a lesser villian he was totally different. Tolkien even says Sauron in the Second Age was greater than the Morgoth in the First Age
@T A Umm no. Sauron lost his shapeshifting because of Eru. Saurons whole reason of turning evil was because of Morgoths power that is what motivated Sauron in the first place. That is not a flaw or weakness it is a move of cleverness.
Umm Sauron actually didnt lose all fights he was in. He defeated Finrod and Celebrimbor and slew Gil Galad and Elendil in his weakest state. Tolkien described Morgoth as unvaliant while he described Sauron as opposite.
Saurons moves of cunning was not a lack of might it was a move of choice. Sauron is still creating politics in the TA with words of honey although being the most powerfull being both in terms of personal might and armies. Morgoth never did that.
Morgoth also lost to a man what a fate huh
@@oguzhanenescetin5702 Morgoth getting killed by Turin is not canon but concept for Final Battle is.
@@lalallallagunwolaaaa This still doesnt change the fact that Tolkien envisioned HIM the one who killed Morgoth at the latest version
Another fascinating dive. I love your perspective on Sauron’s cunning vs Morgoth’s might but wouldn’t think Sauron would have lasted very long alone in the first age. Folks were much mightier back then and with all his cleverness, Sauron was still whipped by Huan & Luthian!
Sauron was powerful in the 3rd age because the Valar chose not to intervene or have minimal intervention in middle-earth issues. If even a single Valar like Tulkas was to go after Sauron, there would be nothing to praise about his cunning or strategy.
“… In this way Sauron was also wiser than Morgoth. Sauron was not a beginner of discord; and he probably knew more of the “Music” than Morgoth did.”
A manuscript by J.R.R.Tolkien, c. 1958, edited and published by Christopher Tolkien in MORGOTH’S RING, Houghton Mifflin, 1993
''In this way'' is key factor meaning Morgoth was wiser in other fields.
@@lalallallagunwolaaaa Tolkien mentions earlier in the paragraph that Morgoth was impatient and Sauron wasnt and that Melkor didnt give a shit to the thought of others while Sauron listened them. IN THIS WAY Sauron was wiser than Morgoth
@@oguzhanenescetin5702 Yeah that was my point Sauron is wiser in some other things while Morgoth holds the greatest knowledge of all.
@@lalallallagunwolaaaa Sauron is wiser in terms of his personality and how he can perceive and understand his enemies. Melkor has raw IQ and knowledge while Sauron has intellect and wisdom
@@oguzhanenescetin5702 Agreed
The Characteristics of Sauron and Morgoth remind me a bit of that of Darth Vader and Palpatine. Except in Lotr it’s flipped. Sauron is more like Palpatine with his patience and cunning to infiltrate and manipulate in order to destroy his enemies, while Morgoth seems a bit like Darth Vader/ Anakin in his lack of patience and quick desire to destroy his enemies. Sauron also reminds me of the Rule of Two in which the Sith would use patience and manipulation to destroy the Jedi rather than using the methods of brute force and all out war of the Old Sith order sort of like Morgoth.
Different times and circumstances. However, remember that Sauron was undone by 3 hobbits which he consistently overlooked. Not too bright.
Morgoth was sung to sleep....
@@frankgallagur2045 Well and he wake up, Sauron never did after what those hobbits did to him.
Morgoth : fuck it, lets go.
Sauron : lemme think about it...
Melkor was mainly dealing with Elves while Sauron was mainly dealing with men. Elven kingdom are more normally stable because leadership didn’t change and they were corrupted less easily. While Sauron had to deal with men kingdoms, leadership that change a lot. And men can be corrupted in a heartbeat.
Eh, not in the second age. And he had to deal with the power of the three still in the third age.
Morgoth mainly dealt with the Valar. He had no use for elves except to torture and corrupt them into the first orcs and to kill them because he felt like it. If you read the Silmarillion you would realise his objective was to destroy everything Eru created and all the works of his fellow Valar because he wanted Arda to be his. The Valar would raise mountains, he would flatten them. They would make rivers, he would make them into infested and poisonous swamps. He destroyed the two trees for no reason. He tortured elves for no reason. His goal is to beat Illuvatar so elves or the Valar and men are not what irks him.
i think sauron has lost all the battles he's ever been in. morgoth on the other hand...
Morgoth is more successful than Sauron due to conquering the entirety of middle earth during the first age and covered all the lands in darkness, necessitating the return of the valar to defeat him, While Sauron in comparison never managed the complete subjugation of his foes at any single point and was ultimately defeated by them and their forces in the end.
Morgoth hands down
I love this UA-cam channel, thank you for taking the time to explain this amazing lore. I appreciate that, so much ❤
Morgoth left the "infrastructure of evil" (including the Morgoth element dispersed in the world, without which the system of control within the rings of power would be impossible) for Sauron to more carefully take advantage of. Sauron never had the raw innate power to create all this from scratch.
Thus, the entire second and third ages could be called the "ages of Morgoth's legacy". Sauron surpassed Morgoth in the "wisdom of evil", he was more patient and had more "evil pragmatical" objectives.
Sauron was an evil that actually could last because he wished to build a kingdom. Morgoth just wanted to tear down, and thus anyone with actual sense wouldnt follow him. Meanwhile, Sauron was able to convince many human rulers to bow to him due to him promising power. Sauron appealed to people who wanted to rule, and he let them rule as long as they were under him (Like the Witch King). Melkor is just the mental illness of the universe basically and I think that is ultimately what his allegory really is.
Technically, Melkor was able to be quite cunning and deceptive also, not just brute strength: the division of the Noldor from the Valar and the conflict of Feanor and Fingolfin was started by Melkor's Deceptions, the Betrayal of some of the Easterling during the Battle of Unnumbered Tears. Plus, in one note, Melkor's imprisonment in Valinor was due to Melkor faking repentance and surrendering (though him then being imprisoned wasn't what he thought pretending to surrender and fake redemption would result in when brought to Valinor, according the that same note).
Great points.
Of course Melkor successfully corrupted/tempted the Noldor in Valinor, directly under the gaze of the Valar. Gotta say that seems a more impressive act of seduction/manipulation than Sauron in Numenor. But then Melkor increasingly diminished not only in power but stature. As did Sauron, in the end in the equivalent of a single blow.
Noldor knew who he was and what he was capable of. Numenoreans had no idea about Saurons power. That being said; Melkor was able to corrupt them without need of the skill with words. He created disorder and corruption about them. Sauron didnt do such things in his time in Eregion. In Numenor he was deceiving them, not corrupting them outright. There is a difference
Counter point: Morgoth won. After the Battle of Unnumbered Tears, Morgoth was effectively Lord of all Beleriand. He began razing entire kingdoms - climaxing with Gondolin - and nothing could stop him. The only thing that stopped him were entirely new and fresh hosts from Valinor.
I agree sauron had might and cunning together to make him the ultimate villain of middle earth
But he had Morgoth’s case as a “cautionary tale”
But how would Sauron fair against the forces of the elves and men of the 1st age. I think bringing Morgoth to the 3rd age and Sauron to the 1st age (as the main dark lord), would result in Morgoth coming across far superior (not just in raw power).
That was because Melkor was superior in power. Give Sauron Melkors power than Sauron would accomplish more
@Oğuzhan Enes Çetin to me that is not an argument that makes sense - that is like saying "give Melkor the tactical strengths of Sauron". It is Melkor vs Sauron with their inherent strengths and weaknesses, not Melkor vs Sauron "but if Sauron had his strengths + Melkors strengths" - how is that fair?
Let's take away Melkors physical power. But he retains his ability to cultivate dragons - imagine the likes of Ancalagon and Glaurung in the 3rd age + multiple Balrogs (Gothmog in particular).
Who was a more effective dark Lord. Absolutely Melkor. Who was more cunning against a considerably weaker enemy, Sauron - I don't see how that makes him the more successful dark lord.
When the ring was destroyed, it was gone. Morgoths Ring remains until the end of everything.
Another big point is Melkor literally formed the race that is the enemy of the 3 people's of middle earth (can't be more impactful than that. Sauron was standing on the shoulder of a giant.
@@CoachJCurtis Everything you mentioned here is a testiment to his power not succsess. Effective, yes more succesfull ? No. He cant control his dragons and Balrogs without his pyshicall power to begin with.
Morgoths motivation was he was jelous of Eru's ability to create so he could only pretend to create by corruption of what already existed. Morgoth had more raw power than Sauron but Sauron's motivation was to rule ane bring order and influence. I think that is what gave hime the patience becasue their goals were different.
I think we can all agree we need a series or movie purely about Morgoth and Sauron.
From William Blake's "Proverbs of Hell":
"The weak in courage are strong in cunning."
Sauron was a sower of discord & chaos.
Morgorth was the literal progenitor of chaos.
For this reason it is silly to me why this could even be a question of debate. Yes they had different aspirations but it is very clear who was #1 and who was #2.
Morgoth > Sauron. Obviously
Isn’t there a prophecy of Morgoth escaping the void?
It is fortold that at Dagor Dagorath (the Middle Earth version of Armageddon) Morgoth will emerge from the void for a final battle with the Valar.
The way i look at it is that Tolkien originally framed his creation as an alternative history to the british isles. He envisaged an anglo saxon travelling to an island and being told the tales of middle earth.
Morgoth particularly hated the elves. The elves might all be in valinor living happily ever after, but there are no elves today in what was once middle earth, so you can argue that morgoth was at the very least, partially successful.
As for Sauron, his war was more against men (and women) rather than the elves. In the fourth age, humans became a lot more prolific and there are plenty of humans today, so Sauron failed when it came to holding sway over all humanity.
One thing is certain, Sauron was defeated by the Numenor and the Elves. Numenor and the Elves could never have defeated Morgoth without the help of the Valar.
The servant is not greater than the master.
Morgoth > Sauron.
I have never really understood this debate for the very reason you said. The Gods had to work together to fight/subdue Melkor, the greatest of all the Valor. Sauron was one of Melkor’s minions, and that is that. If their roles had been somehow reversed chronologically in accord with canon, and it was Melkor/Morgoth rather than Sauron wreaking havoc in the Third Age, Melkor would have quickly defeated all the combined armies of ME. Oh, and while we’re at it, Ungoliant >>> Shelob. Obviously.
Given Sauron's level of power and Morgoth's power, yes!! Sauron achieved many things with regard to his power, on the contrary with Melkor, who was wasting it. Sauron had a role in all of Melkor's evil actions against Arda. This means that all of Melkor's actions, such as destroying the lamps or creating dragons, Sauron had a role in them in one way or another, and we should not forget that he forced Eru to intervene as a result of his actions.
I wonder what a Melkor vs Sauron war would be like. Say Melkor returned to Middle-earth while Sauron was distracted in Numenor, and Sauron didn’t feel like becoming #2 again.
IMO, there is no debate. While the pupil did become the master, Sauron did not fill a single shoe Morgoth left. Morgoth faced god level oppositions. Meanwhile Sauron faced weakened versions of other Maiars, but never full interventions from Valars. Makes you think about what Eru was up to. As if he was making it so that the fight between his children was fair ay?
Eru intervened with Sauron 3 times, but only once with Morgoth. That has to mean something
@@perhamill Only perhaps to reveal that he realized he messed up by sending Maiars with a fraction of their power. He didn’t have to do much with Morgoth because the Valars were involved directly.
Saruman was never truly in Saurons plan though. That was just another scheme to use Sarumans lust for power to wage war against Rohan and thus weaken two enemies to Mordor. Three enemies if you count in Gondor as Rohan would aid them during the final siege.
Sauron calculated rightly that Saruman would take the Ring once great enough.
stoked for this one
You know, even though there are some differences between them, I almost compare Morgoth and Sauron with Megatron and Starscream. Morgoth, like Megatron, was powerful and often saw brute force as the only way to achieve one’s ends, though maybe in some incarnations Megatron was pretty patient and intelligent too. While Sauron I compare with Starscream, since both are a lot more cunning and underhanded than the masters they serve and know how to manipulate people. Not sure if Sauron ever had any aspirations to usurp Morgoth before he was cast into the timeless void, but he certainly did seem to be pretty comely taking on the title of being Morgoth returned. (Though it would seem to me that Sauron was a lot more successful than Starscream ever was.) anyone else agree with me on all that?
Sauron only took the mantle of Dark Lord because he knew that Morgoth would never return to claim the throne. In my opinion, Sauron would never have dared to challenge Morgoth. In Numenor, he became the high priest of a religion which have Morgoth as a deity. Arguably the maia had his own agenda, but the vala was always the master, even in absence.
I seen another comment saying Tolkien could have compared morgoth and sauron to world war 1 and 2 Morgoth/WWI Germany was just doing it to destroy their enemies and sauron/WWII was for dominance control and malevolent order.
morgoth actually won the war and it took being baled out by the valar to defeat him where Sauron actually because mt doom didn’t have a guard
simply stated, no! Sauron doesnt come close to matching Morgoth in terms of success in any category. Whether it be territory, time in power, power levels of servants or really anything, Sauron doesn't even come close.
I have to say this question has a easy awnser...morgoth was the better dark lord. While both had their own strengths and weakensses and both had sucesses and failures...morgoth had to contend with much more powerful enemies.
The only thing that makes me sad is that young people nowadays don't really know Tolkien and his legendary books. They things like game of thrones. If they wanted to make movies, series and video games, nothing would match it
The old saying, I stand on the shoulders of giants., is apropos here. Sauron built upon what Morgoth had accomplished and left as evil in Arda.
Agreed. Sauron as a valar would be unstoppable
In terms of fulfilling thier own goals, Sauron id say is more successful. He got very close to victory by the end of LOTR. Considering how the ring was destroyed, Saurons defeat could almost be considered a fluke. Melkor on the otherhand likely couldnt have destoyed all creation and even if he could, he really didnt get that close.
For all of his skills and power, Sauron was still just a shadow of the power and evil that Melkor/Morgoth was.
Yeah I don't agree with some of this like the valar didn't intervene the way they did with morgoth because they knew that it was within the power of the elves and men (and dwarves) to defeat sauron which is why they only set the astari to give aid through mainly council with morgoth the only way the people's of arda would ever triumph against morgoth would be with the aid of the valar
sauron succeed more because the valar decided not to directly confront him and mostly leave the matter to those who are in middle earth, if the valar directly had been involved sauron was long defeated permanently
Imagine if Tulkas hunted Sauron the way he did Morgoth, would he still exist? Even Luthien and Huan beat him and Luthien destroyed his fortress in a heartbeat. Just because Sauron used cunning to defeat mere elves and humans, apparently he is more powerful than Morgoth who caused discord in the song of the Valar, corrupted several Maiar(including Sauron and the Balrogs)changed the shape of Arda, destroyed the two trees with Ungoliant, made orcs, made dragons(?) etc and it took a host of Valar descending from Valinor to capture him. So now he is hanging out in the void waiting to destroy Arda once more. Seriously?
Tolkien's Christianity probably gives us a big clue: all things are dimmer reflections of their past glory. Each age is an order dimmer. Sauron may have been more successful, but only in the way that a child might be more successful in building a sand castle than an adult may be in building a skyscraper, but that doesn't make the child a better architect.
Sauron was more stupid than Morgoth because he put most of his power into a tiny ring and then took it onto a battlefield. But i gather even the valor could lose power if they used a whole lot of it at once. For example, to begin with Melkor was the 2nd most powerful entity after Illiavatar. It took all the rest of the valor to defeat just him. But towards the end of the simillarion, he'd put so much of his hatred and malice into middle earth, he'd lost a lot of his power. Fingolfin was able to take him on and permanently wound him, as well as the king of the eagles. Luthian was able to sneak into Angbad and enchant him, but then her magic was almost used up when it came to escaping again. And Sauron did rebuild his army of orcs, balrogs and dragons for him for when he returned to middle earth, not glaurung or gothmog. So to say that Melkor was more powerful than sauron is undoubtedly true, sauron only being miair. But was morgoth more powerful than sauron was after using up so much of his magic, he couldnt even shape change at the end? Who knows?
Where is the link about why the Valar didn't stop Sauron?
You are a Sauron guy, but he just can't compare to Morgoth. The power morgoth had, is insane.
The illustration "morgoth defeated" by renato is amazing, I couldn't find any more works of him, could you share or direct to him?
The way I see it, Morgoth had a MUCH higher threshold for damage and destruction he could have caused, yet Sauron was a much more strategic and cunning dark lord.
Morgoth was a force of nature, an earthquake taken shape and he could have caused catastrophic destruction. Sauron was more like a condensed laser, or a controlled fire. He didn't just want to destroy for the sake of destruction, he wanted to rule.
Morgoth was stronger without a doubt and probably brought more fear when his name was mentioned, yet Sauron was more effective in bringing Middle Earth to its knees with his deceit and cunning strategic planning.
Sauron was more powerful because he wielded Morgoths power. Morgoth poured his power in the middle earth. His essence remains, and with it, sauron was more powerful than morgoth. He commanded morgoths corrupted beings. These beings possessed the essence and will of morgoth. Sauron commanded sorcery... Latent power of morgoth... To twist the music of the valor.
This is saurons strength
I don't think the question of whether Sauron would have done worse if he took Morgoth's place. In that sinario all his cunning would be useless, he would likely be overthrown, or loss part of his kingdom, by another of Morgoth's captains who are just as powerful as him, and if this did not happen he would be brought down by the might of the elves.
Before i even watch i do have to say that i choose sauron in your post on who's the better dark lord (not because i didn't read the books but because sauron has many ways and many weapons literal and metaphorical to make his plans work)
"More Successful" is inherantly subjective. Both were defeated. Sauron was taken out by Gollum seeking out the Ring. Morgoth was beaten by Tulkas (Valar of War) and will fall to Turin in LOTR's Ragnarok. Sauron's was a planner, but his mistake waas not seeing the opportunity in Morgoth's defeat. He knows all of Valafr's possible plans & strategies. If he had timed it right, the Valar might have gifted Sauron with his own kingdom like Numenor, a place to create perfect order. All Sauron needed to do was betray Morgoth at the last minute & maybe fight for the Elves. That's all the Edain had to do
Thanks for a thought provoking video.
What-if video idea for you to do:
What if Gandalf never fell at the Bridge of Khazad-dum and continued with the fellowship to Lothlorien and on forward?
Look ,Melkor won every battle before War of powers, he was so close to dominating everything if not Tulkas.The first age is ending cinematic for Him , even at the end host of valar could loose to Ancalagon
Morgoth had the Valar and Stronger Eldar against him. If the same early men and eldar fought Sauron he would have been easy to defeat.
That is because of Melkors power not his success
Success also means knowing when to fight, and when not to engage. Melkor / Morgoth was a coward, but always invited conflict and betrayed his collaborators. He was just foolish in a way Sauron was not, though as always we would never attempt to say anyone commenting is wrong, and we can disagree without being disagreeable to one another. I think you have a good point.
[I authored the script, so it was a natural urge to reply and speak with you on this issue as I sense you brought it up not as a 'gotcha' but as a point of counterfactual made in good faith. Cheers man, talking about / debating Tolkien and his characters, world and ideas makes the world he created all the more wonderful and the community is better for its inclusion of thoughtful and keen eyed individuals such as yourself, as your point is well taken!
-bran
Um… don’t honk so…
Sauron’s relative weakness forced on him what you see as a strength; his need to be pacient and rely on deception instead of raw power.
The siege of Sauron last 12 years? The siege of Morgoth’s Angbang lasted 400 years…
Sauron’s relative weakness is made apparent by the fact that Sauron had to pour so much of his own power into the one ring (and to a lesser extent its subsidiary rings) that his power/campaign was significantly compromised without the one ring, and his existence fatally compromised by the ring’s destruction.
Cheers
Nice perspective. If you have the power to change the shape of the earth, you do not need cunning. Maybe Morgoth should have been more strategic in how to defeat the Valar but comparing his power to Sauron's and saying Sauron(who is now nothing without spirit or form) is more powerful is pretty presumptuous.
Sauron wouldn't have lasted 5 minutes against the combined noldor if Morgoth and his creations like Glaurung hadnt destroyed them first. It took the combined force of the valar and elves of the undying lands to overthrow Morgoth. Sauron benefitted from the valar withdrawing from middle earth and acting via the istari instead, and the many mighy noldor lords of old being killed, and both men and elves being diminished
Gonna give it to Morgoth. Fooled the gods twice while, Sauron tricked some mortals and elves for a bit. Morgoth fortified Thangorodrim and defeated Feanor and outlasted Thingol. Sauron got spooked and tipped his hand trying to get the ring back while waging all out war, instead of doing one or the other. Morgoth only beaten when alllll gods dogpile on him. Sauron defeated/ drowned by his own scheme, and then finished off by his own malice in so hopelessly enslaving a hobbit type critter.
Morgoth fated to return for one more battle. Sauron nerfed permanently 🤷♂️
Morgoth also was captured and used cunning to deceive his captors
Additionally, it is shown over and over again that morgoth laid plans successfully again and again against the rest of the valor through cunning and deceipt.
I don't see these as uniquely sauron traits
Only one of these had Eru Ilúvatar intervene, not once, but twice, and it wasn't Morgoth.
Thanks. Sauron had the benefit of observing his master's mistakes. But being a Maia, he was used to a more subservient position by his very nature. Serving under a supreme ego like that of Melkor would've made him more careful & introspective of necessity. One must also consider the level of opposition. I seriously doubt Mordor - and Sauron - could have withstood a combined onslaught of the Elves, Dwarves, & Men who battled Melkor & Thangorodrim, ring or no ring. In my estimation, Sauron without Melkor would've had no chance against those early enemies, and even a diminished Melkor would've easily overmastered the poor souls of the third age. tavi.
If Salron and Melkor had swapped places and power, Melkor would’ve been a stronger Balrog, but Salron would’ve beaten the Valar (unless Uru’Illuvitar stepped in)
Sauron learned from his master, and used all resources to improve where Morgoth had failed.
Morgoth played a longer game. Sauron learned from Morgoth’s failure. But in the end Morgoth gets out of the void.
Morgoth and Sauron had different goals which you even kinda touch on in this video. Morgoth worked against the works of the Valar while Sauron sought rulership of Middle-Earth. Both made mistakes and both had great successes. Sauron destroyed Numenor but I would argue it was only after he antagonize them and then realized he wouldn't win the fight. So he let himself become captured and then destroyed Numenor but that also led to the destruction of his physical form and when he finally regained it, he could no longer shape-shift as he had before. Morgoth, on the other hand, lost his battle against the Valar and then was able to destroy the two trees afterwards. But again, he misjudged Shelob in a similar way to how Sauron would misjudge his ability to survive the the destruction of Numenor. Neither one of them succeeded in their goals so I would say I would disagree with your conclusion that Sauron seems to have succeeded wear Morgoth failed and further would disagree with the idea that Sauron even could succeed where Morgoth as ultimately they were trying to achieve two different things. If you want to say Sauron is more cunning sure. And Morgoth even at his weakest is more powerful. What's more I'd go so far as to say Morgoth's story was never completed as he has yet to return through the doorof night but Sauron has been laid so low as to never be able to return (if I recall he was not truly killed but instead reduced to a wraith that could no longer truly interact with the world). So Morgoth still has a chance to win (though i believe it's propsized that he won't) whereas Sauron has no chance at all.
Quick correction I said Shelob but meant Ungoliant, my bad.
Would have the Which King taken over if he did not die?
Honestly, it seems like you can't really compare their level of "success," as their objectives were completely different. Melkor's entire purpose was the wreak everyone's shit solely because he was a petty dick, whereas Sauron was actually trying to will a specific order into the world. It's like asking if a serial killer was more "successful" than the corrupt mayor of a town. Successful at what? How do you even go about comparing the two?
Love your analogy. That's why videos like this comparing powers are annoying. Morgoth made Sauron who he is. Morgoth is a Valar. Morgoth is the most powerful Valar Eru created. Now how do you compare the two. You can compare their methods but never their powers. If there was to be a comparison video I would appreciate it would be Morgoth vs Aüle/Manwë/Ulmo/Tulkas, those are his peers. Heck, even Morgoth vs Eru to humor Morgoth's ambitions.
TBS: Sauron's strategic mind is unparalleled in fiction, past or present 🤗.
*Aiden has entered the chat* : That's cute 😏
Sauron has better IQ and outsmarting feats tho
I love how all these artists make Morgoth look like the Taken King from Destiny. 😄
Sauron taught the peoples of Umbar , Rhun , and the Easterlings to worship Morgoth not himself .
Morgoth faced the Valar, but not Sauron, isn't it ?
Possible video and question for you
When Sauron sewed disinformation and discontent when he was imprisoned. Just using the power persuasion and its voice.
Could Saruman have done the same if he had surrendered to Gandalf after the fall of Isengard. (I only ever saw the Peter Jackson movies, I'm not sure how much that part may have differed from the books)
Apologies for any misspellings.
Saruman would have to deceive giant characters as Gandalf and Elrond and Galadriel, while Sauron was only dealing with greedy Men in Numenor
Morgoth won the war for Beleriand with Children of Illuvatar, destroyed their kingdoms and only intervention of hosts of Valar brought him down.
Sauron's plans were thwarted time and again by Elves and Men. He was beaten by them many times and never got full control of the Western Middle Earth.
Sauron was cunning, cowardly and scheming. He had his own great successes, but none of them was even close to breaking Noldor kingdoms of old. They were all partial at best (like destruction of the Numenor, which cost him dearly). He was a self-defeating evil and Free Peoples were enough to bring him down more than once. Wizards were crucial in his final downfall, but they were no hosts of Manwe, just advisors and mentors.
It was at 8:47 I realised sauron is a Tau, once you see it...
I don't know, I feel like we're talking about two different worlds here. Morgoths foes are almost exponentially more powerful than anything Sauron faced. Almost like the NFL/PL vs Pee Wee/Under-12s.
_Was he more evil than his master?_
I wouldn't say so. Rather he was evil in a more adult way.
Melkor lka Morgoth felt ashamed and offended (in German we say "er war eine beleidigte Leberwurst") because he had been rebuked by Eru, so he - no, not turned to but - _invented_ evil.
Morgoth embedded enduring evil into Arda, Sauron was influenced by Morgoth, Morgoth power was put into autonomous evil, whereas Sauron wanted power where Morgoth gave his power to evil. Sauron is but a shadow or ripple of Morgoth’s evil placed upon and within Arda.
Melkor won outright. It took the valar to intervene for him to lose
Morgoth's Ring discusses why Melkor was far worse.
Sauron made a piece of gold his ring, but his master infected the whole world with his evil, injecting his own version of Original Sin in Earth's very matter, effectively becoming his Ur-Ring of Power...😢
AZOG SENT ME HERE!
Both. Sauron was a patient man while Morgoth wasn't. That's why he won over Morgoth,
I respectfully disagree with your premise. Morgoth sought dominance through brute strength because he was stronger than any being except one. Sauron could not take the same approach, as he was weaker in power, so he had to rely upon his cunning and wits. Both wielded the tools they had available to them in the best way they knew. By all accounts, Sauron revered Morgoth.
In may ways I think Sauron pushed himself and his boundaries further than Morgoth did, however I disagree that he was more intelligent. Where as Saurons motivations were originally pure, he is a bigger fool than Morgoth in that he repeated his masters mistakes, more than once and a real fool is a person that makes the same mistake more than once. Sauron sought to manipulate the civilisations using the rings of power, however his primary target, the elves can feel his presence and refuse to wear the rings whilst he has the one, dwarves are imperious to his influence and manipulation, with only men yielding to his will, but no right person would willing follow a Nazgûl, given that they only inspire fear. His great plan therefore failed and he reverted to his masters plan of domination via force, which failed him in at least 4 separate occasions. This does not sound like an intelligent person to me. On top of his he brings the wrath of god upon him, as the sinking of numenor is an action of direct intervention by Eru. Then on after God or fate, always seems to swing against him. Again Sauron has seen his creator, he knows his power and still thinks he can defy him. Morgoth is more one dimensional than Sauron, and he is less subtle, but what more do you expect from the father of all evil.
I disagree. Morgoth had bigger opposition. Sauron was more success because they the enemy didn’t really. Also, morgoth had different and goals
The fact that anyone even entertains this question means They obviously haven't read enough of Tolkiens stories.
Without Melkor and him corrupting the music and arda and creating the fell creatures, Sauron would have absolutely nothing. This is a no brainer. Everything Sauron did and accomplished is entirely owed to Melkor
This was all the more reason Sauron choosed to become a villian