Phidias(?), Parthenon sculptures, frieze: 438-432 B.C.E., pediment: c. 438-432 B.C.E. and metopes: c. 447-32 B.C.E. Speakers: Dr. Steven Zucker and Dr. Beth Harris,
What do we do now? We return the original marbles to Greece - the host countries can make copies. Thank you Greece for everything. One day I hope to visit.
For me in the metopes is particularly evident the way Phidias, and the Greek sculptors, in general, treated the human body: namely as an actor who plays a dramatic theatrical piece. Even without the expression of the faces, which are mostly lost, we can understand the pathos and the dynamism of the scene just watching at the torsion of muscles and bones. Meanwhile, the draperies and the weapons are truly theater props, employed in a way that enhances the depth and the light of the marble. I m convinced that it wouldn't exist any Greek sculpture's History without the support of the theatrical acts and of Philosophy which is its foundation. I know that the ancient world had already seen recitals and the likes, but they were of religious nature. The Greeks weren't satisfied with the answers of the Temple priests ( I' m thinking about the "Passion of Osiris" act from ancient Egypt, as an instance) this is why they developed Philosophy and Theater, visual expression of it. Phidias was so anatomically accurate because he truly loved Knowledge, but he writhed all those bodies because he had to tell a story, just like a playwright.
I started with the Aztecs, I got sucked into these commentators. They remind me of the Olympic Commentators but with cultural art and more passion and questions :D I
I am in awe of the skills and workmanship of all these sculptures, looking at the horses galloping frieze, for some reason, almost brought me to tears from how awesome and amazing it is. Art is a wonder, and it can bring very strong feelings to people.
@@WouldntULikeToKnow. 1st Wiki hit: "After divorce, the husband was required to return the dowry or pay 18 percent interest annually so the woman's livelihood would continue and she could remarry." Thanks for the comment, it made me find some actual facts!
Those sculptures look misplaced inside the museums--just too grand. They belong to the Parthenon. I would love to see them where they truly belong. Please put them back!!!! (By the way thanks for this video smarthistory)
Merci pour cette vidéo qui fort heureusement met en valeur les sculptures du Parthénon. Je me dis que sculpture et architecture y forment un tout et que cette tradition s’est poursuivie dans toute l’architecture classique du monde occidental.
I really love this channel and how it beautifully explains and propagates art history. I do know the channel’s stance on the matter of ownership over the Parthenon marbles (i recommend the specific video on the topic) and I know it does not defend British ownership. Still, for those who have not watched the other video I’d like to highlight that Elgin did not have permission to remove any marbles attached to the building - only pieces of stone that were buried under the ground, apart from his permission to measure, draw and take plaster casts of the sculptures.
@@salem8753 The Parthenon was long destroyed when the marbles were removed. It could be argued that Elgin saved the sculptures from years of pollution and corrosion.
Your argument could have been valid only if the British museum have had the dignity to return the "saved' marbles back to Greece. Lord Elgin, as you know, did not remove the sculptures to save them . Also do not forget the damage the British inflicted to the marbles when they remove the natural patina from the sculptures to restore the " original grandeur '.
In previous Parthenon videos, I just accepted what was missing, but I'm so grateful for those reconstructions allowing me to see the unseen! It'd be interesting if the missing facial expressions were more surprised / appalled at Athena's birth (with the understanding of an ever-relaxed Dionysis), but I believe the depictions as they are. Good for Phidias having a style named after him. Perhaps there will be the choice to use Waterfall, Agile, or Sashian approaches to Project Management someday. 😋
They they been well looked after by the British museum. The twentieth century was particularly nasty especially in respect of warfare and the pollution, there probably wouldn't be much left of them at hadn't they of been at the museum.
Dont you think that is Hercules and not Dionysus? The lion skin is there (and perhaps a later broken of club was there too) to signify his identity. Yes, Dionysus can be clothed in a lion skin in depictions, but mainly it is the marker of Herucles.
Is there any chance to cover Sicily in some of your videos? There are still pretty outstanding Greek examples over there, not speaking about the Arab- Norman churches in Palermo's area. Thanks
Now Greece wants them back, but I think that if they had stayed in Greece they would have been destroyed by neglect or clima. England has taken care of them in an excellent way, so they should stay there! Anders L Stockholm
this is somewhat unrelated, but: i cannot understand why so many different sources seem to flip the Parthenon around 180 so many make east west, and west east, and this completely confuses one's studies of the Parthenon for instance, the orientation of the parthenon as a medieval church was flipped opposite of the ancient temple's orientation; ancients entered east*, Christians entered west*, so that the apse was in the east (the former main entrance) but if instead, the ancients entered on the west, that would mean the later church apse in the east was in the same side as the ancient backroom, which isn't true... this is because the ancient backroom was made the narthex (entry chamber) of the medieval Parthenon church so what gives?
I visited The British Museum in 2002. I spent the half day just admiring these amazing marbles. I, for one, am grateful these still exist today. I know they may have been looted, stolen or taken by force but, at least they were saved and well taken care of. When ISIS destroyed ancient Palmyra, I thought about these marbles and was relieved someone had them safe. I know Syria and Greece are two different situations, but what if a foreign power had saved the artifacts of Palmyra, centuries ago?
Zeus (Greek) is just a form of Deus(Latin) or Devas (Sanskrit) that means God. The term derived terms in Sanskrit/Pali Dev (god) and Divas (day) are equivalent to Deus (god) and Day.
Linear B (1500bc) Mycenean -->di-wo /diwos , zewo, dzéus ,deus , zeus. The oldest found inscription in India is Tamil - Brahmi in Adichanallur. The script is dated to 500-300 BC. Recent excavations in the village of Porunthal near Palani (in Tamil Nadu) found many Tamil-Brahmi inscriptions which are identified to be the oldest (belonging to 5th century BCE) in the Indian subcontinent, with their period predating Asoka's.
Unfortunately, the Athenians had the same human defect as most, they did not listen to their own good advice, not being pride and how it will bring your downfall
As a Hellene, my question ranks highest. ! Where are these unbelievable marbles safest? Greece rests on a Seismic tectonic plate in the earth's crust where earthquakes are an unfortunate occurrence. England has no continual seismic activity and is a much more stable country than Greece herself. As a man who prides himself standing tallest above all else as a Greek, this is my main concern. All would desire to see these treasures returned to their rightful place, mingling with their cousin marbles on the Acropolis. This is where they rightfully belong. There is no argument. I have studied this temple to Athena all my life, constantly in awe and wonder to her impossible perfection...." giving evidence to.the perfection of Man as a Deity ....as Gods themselves ! "
You make a point, and sounds like your intentions are good. But below the surface, it's still a fundamental wrong that can't be justified or made right, outside of safely and permanently returning the statues... Let England make replicas, and return the stolen statues to Greece and it's people, where, and to whom, they belong. Let God/nature take care of the rest. Movie The First Line did a great job of conveying the arrogant, paternalistic stubbornness of the prig official at the museum, and all who had a hand in denying justice.
Weird argument! The Acropolis Museum is anti- seismic! It's a feeble point against the re- unification of the Parhenon Sculptures. Especially the Parthenon frieze! It would be an honour to the everlasting symbol of free expression and democracy!
The Parthenon has survived all kind of natural disasters for 2500 years . Your point is nonsensical . England is one of the biggest targets for terrorists from the middle east right now and was the country in west Europe with the most terror attacks during the 70s 80s and 90s . I wouldnt call that a safe country.
Seems obvious, give the statues back!. . . But it's also true that a fair amount of historical items like these, would have been lost forever had they not been displaced.
Lord Elgin saved the remaining works from the negligence of the Turks, who are responsible for much of the damage to the building, including an explosion of ammunition incredibly stored in the building. In addition, the Greeks owe their independence to the British and French, who intervened in the revolution against the Turks. This has nothing to do with imperialism. I’m sure many people wept to see what had happened to one of the greatest artistic achievements in world history. Leave them where they are, they’re in the safest place in the world!
You conviniently tend to forget the fact that Lord Elgin's men chainsawed them from the frieze and the metope throwing them to the ground and breaking many of them in order to illegally acquire them. His permission was found at the archives of the high Gate now directed by the Turkish state. It was perfectly clear cited in it that he had only the right to copy them in paper or even make replicas out of them not chainsaw and remove them from the Parthenon.Furthermore you tend to forget what katastrophic action in the 30's the British museum imposed to them. In order to make them more appealing a crew of its "maintenance" brushed them with steel brushes and used chissles to make them more white thus completely destroying their bimillenial patina formed on them making much more succeptible to pollution. Not to mention the fact that we have seen the British museum leaking rain ☔ from the roof in that exactly wing that they are kept in. I honestly laugh with the claim safest place of the world !!!!
The Marbles should stay at the British Museum. There is no obvious sense that any art object should ever be returned to its place of origin. Every great museum in the world contains objects from around the world, and so it should be.
@@srfrg9707 Not looted. There was nothing sinister in Elgin acquiring the works. Although I am conflicted in where they should rest. I sometimes see them with my minds eye; they are there as well.
Vincit Omnia Veritas Looted indeed and there a plenty of sinister events in this : 1) Greece was occupied by the Turks. Elgin was the embassador of GB to Constantinople. He used his position to obtain a firman from the sultan. The political situation of Greece had already been that of successive insurrections of the Greeks and repression by the Turks such as the massacres in Chio island. 2) The marbles were still on the Parthenon. Elgin damaged both the stucture and many marbles in the attempt to remove them. 3) One sculture at least fall during the process and broke into pieces. 4) The boat sank with its load during the voyage from Athens to GB. The marbles rest in the bottom of the seal for a few years before Elgin managed to recover them from the wreck. The damages are not documented but it's obvious there was damages. 5) Elgin store the marbles in his coal reserve. He intended to use them to decorate his f..ing country house. Just the tought of that gives to any Greek ideas I can express on YT. 6) When he finaly tried to sell them to the BRitish Museum, the british parliement washed its hand concerning the looting, in other words, recognised it was a looting indeed. 7) The British Museum "cleaned" the marbles using wired brushes from any remaining traces of polychromie in order to make them match with their conception of white purety in greek art. There are a few other points making the british position quite arrogant in our point of view, among which the role the UK player in imposing the monarchy upon Greeks after WWII leading to a civil war, with british tanks in the streets of Athens.
@@srfrg9707 Elgin did not have lawful permission to take them. The Ottoman Empire did not have legal ownership of the Parthenon and marbles. It will be a day of celebration when the originals are returned to their home.
nope only british museum have art object's from other places of origin(greece,egipt,india and more)if you take them from this museum they will have nothing to present.....Greece has a lot of museums go there and take a look ,you will not find a single thing that belong to other country's because greece has a lot of culture to present and does not need to stole anything...
Best channel ever! I love both commentators because you can tell both have a love for art and both love to share. They speak with such passion!
An ABSOLUTE No. 1 CULTURE, ancient Greece! Brightest and artisticaly deepest. It is not a suprise that still today we admire and adore those people.
Thank Smarthistory and crew for this kind of videos!
What do we do now? We return the original marbles to Greece - the host countries can make copies. Thank you Greece for everything. One day I hope to visit.
Superb summary, thanks.
2500 years old.... wow
Fantastic as always.
these videos are so amazing
always a pleasure to follow your conversations about such important topics!
For me in the metopes is particularly evident the way Phidias, and the Greek sculptors, in general, treated the human body: namely as an actor who plays a dramatic theatrical piece. Even without the expression of the faces, which are mostly lost, we can understand the pathos and the dynamism of the scene just watching at the torsion of muscles and bones. Meanwhile, the draperies and the weapons are truly theater props, employed in a way that enhances the depth and the light of the marble.
I m convinced that it wouldn't exist any Greek sculpture's History without the support of the theatrical acts and of Philosophy which is its foundation. I know that the ancient world had already seen recitals and the likes, but they were of religious nature. The Greeks weren't satisfied with the answers of the Temple priests ( I' m thinking about the "Passion of Osiris" act from ancient Egypt, as an instance) this is why they developed Philosophy and Theater, visual expression of it.
Phidias was so anatomically accurate because he truly loved Knowledge, but he writhed all those bodies because he had to tell a story, just like a playwright.
I started with the Aztecs, I got sucked into these commentators. They remind me of the Olympic Commentators but with cultural art and more passion and questions :D I
I am in awe of the skills and workmanship of all these sculptures, looking at the horses galloping frieze, for some reason, almost brought me to tears from how awesome and amazing it is. Art is a wonder, and it can bring very strong feelings to people.
Amazing video! Very well made. Great information and perfect commentary. Thanks! :)
Thank you very much for your wonderful presentation and explanation.Please continue with the great work you are doing!!!!!
Wonderful Thank You !
So very well put, and super diagrammatics. Tx.
Sometimes I get nostalgic for Ancient Greek society and culture.
WTFhappenedWITHyou always
WTFhappenedWITHyou There was no Anaesthesia, and toilets....You were lucky to live old enough to celebrate your 40th birthday..... The good ol' days
A nice place to visit if you were a freeborn Greek male. Not too great for anyone else.
@@WouldntULikeToKnow. 1st Wiki hit: "After divorce, the husband was required to return the dowry or pay 18 percent interest annually so the woman's livelihood would continue and she could remarry."
Thanks for the comment, it made me find some actual facts!
@@davidcovington901 that was for freeborn women of the ruling class. Slavery was rampant
You do a great job, thanks
Those sculptures look misplaced inside the museums--just too grand. They belong to the Parthenon. I would love to see them where they truly belong. Please put them back!!!! (By the way thanks for this video smarthistory)
ELROHASZTJA A SAVASESÖ NEM LENNE MÁR SEMMI BELÖLE...
Mi admiración a Fidias y a ustedes. Gracias
Egyptian blue, a pigment that glowed was used in jewelry on the pediment...
Merci pour cette vidéo qui fort heureusement met en valeur les sculptures du Parthénon.
Je me dis que sculpture et architecture y forment un tout et que cette tradition s’est poursuivie dans toute l’architecture classique du monde occidental.
Thanks !!!
Nice information . Thank you .I m From India
Very helpful thank you
I really love this channel and how it beautifully explains and propagates art history. I do know the channel’s stance on the matter of ownership over the Parthenon marbles (i recommend the specific video on the topic) and I know it does not defend British ownership. Still, for those who have not watched the other video I’d like to highlight that Elgin did not have permission to remove any marbles attached to the building - only pieces of stone that were buried under the ground, apart from his permission to measure, draw and take plaster casts of the sculptures.
Errrr... Beg to differ. Elgin was granted a firmin because he was encouraging the British to drive the French out of Egypt .
Know your history !!!!
Finally a video talking about the marbles and not about Elgin
Fortunately there is a nice collection of Iraqi antiquities at the British Museum. If it wasn’t, it would be lost forever
Mark you are wrong,Elgin should have left the marbles where they belong!He destroyed the building by removing the sculptures.
@@salem8753 The Parthenon was long destroyed when the marbles were removed. It could be argued that Elgin saved the sculptures from years of pollution and corrosion.
Your argument could have been valid only if the British museum have had the dignity to return the "saved' marbles back to Greece. Lord Elgin, as you know, did not remove the sculptures to save them . Also do not forget the damage the British inflicted to the marbles when they remove the natural patina from the sculptures to restore the " original grandeur '.
RABLOK, MOST IS AZÉRT MENTEK AZ IRAQUI HÁBORUBA AZ USA VAL
RABOLNI AZ ÖSI 10 EZER ÉVES MARADVÁNYOKAT, toni blar egy dög
One of your most underrated videos. Thanks for explaining the background about the Greeks decisively defeating the Persians in, what? 479 BCE?
the final battle in plataia,one year after the naval battle of salamis
Amazing!
In previous Parthenon videos, I just accepted what was missing, but I'm so grateful for those reconstructions allowing me to see the unseen! It'd be interesting if the missing facial expressions were more surprised / appalled at Athena's birth (with the understanding of an ever-relaxed Dionysis), but I believe the depictions as they are. Good for Phidias having a style named after him. Perhaps there will be the choice to use Waterfall, Agile, or Sashian approaches to Project Management someday. 😋
Let's hope so!
They they been well looked after by the British museum. The twentieth century was particularly nasty especially in respect of warfare and the pollution, there probably wouldn't be much left of them at hadn't they of been at the museum.
Dont you think that is Hercules and not Dionysus? The lion skin is there (and perhaps a later broken of club was there too) to signify his identity. Yes, Dionysus can be clothed in a lion skin in depictions, but mainly it is the marker of Herucles.
Is there any chance to cover Sicily in some of your videos? There are still pretty outstanding Greek examples over there, not speaking about the Arab- Norman churches in Palermo's area. Thanks
Sicily is on our list. Hopefully we will be able to travel again soon.
@@smarthistory-art-history I'm definitely looking forward for it:)
Now Greece wants them back, but I think that if they had stayed in Greece they would have been destroyed by neglect or clima. England has taken care of them in an excellent way, so they should stay there! Anders L Stockholm
this is somewhat unrelated, but:
i cannot understand why so many different sources seem to flip the Parthenon around 180
so many make east west, and west east, and this completely confuses one's studies of the Parthenon
for instance, the orientation of the parthenon as a medieval church was flipped opposite of the ancient temple's orientation; ancients entered east*, Christians entered west*, so that the apse was in the east (the former main entrance)
but if instead, the ancients entered on the west, that would mean the later church apse in the east was in the same side as the ancient backroom, which isn't true...
this is because the ancient backroom was made the narthex (entry chamber) of the medieval Parthenon church
so what gives?
I visited The British Museum in 2002. I spent the half day just admiring these amazing marbles. I, for one, am grateful these still exist today. I know they may have been looted, stolen or taken by force but, at least they were saved and well taken care of. When ISIS destroyed ancient Palmyra, I thought about these marbles and was relieved someone had them safe. I know Syria and Greece are two different situations, but what if a foreign power had saved the artifacts of Palmyra, centuries ago?
If Greece wants'em back.... give them back. The End
un-be-lievable
⚘⚘⚘
Zeus (Greek) is just a form of Deus(Latin) or Devas (Sanskrit) that means God. The term derived terms in Sanskrit/Pali Dev (god) and Divas (day) are equivalent to Deus (god) and Day.
Linear B (1500bc) Mycenean -->di-wo /diwos , zewo, dzéus ,deus , zeus.
The oldest found inscription in India is Tamil - Brahmi in Adichanallur.
The script is dated to 500-300 BC.
Recent excavations in the village of Porunthal near Palani (in Tamil Nadu) found many Tamil-Brahmi inscriptions which are identified to be the oldest (belonging to 5th century BCE) in the Indian subcontinent, with their period predating Asoka's.
The British Museum should keep the originals and send exact copies back to Greece.
Unfortunately, the Athenians had the same human defect as most, they did not listen to their own good advice, not being pride and how it will bring your downfall
As a Hellene, my question ranks highest. ! Where are these unbelievable marbles safest? Greece rests on a Seismic tectonic plate in the earth's crust where earthquakes are an unfortunate occurrence. England has no continual seismic activity and is a much more stable country than Greece herself. As a man who prides himself standing tallest above all else as a Greek, this is my main concern. All would desire to see these treasures returned to their rightful place, mingling with their cousin marbles on the Acropolis. This is where they rightfully belong. There is no argument. I have studied this temple to Athena all my life, constantly in awe and wonder to her impossible perfection...." giving evidence to.the perfection of Man as a Deity ....as Gods themselves ! "
You make a point, and sounds like your intentions are good. But below the surface, it's still a fundamental wrong that can't be justified or made right, outside of safely and permanently returning the statues... Let England make replicas, and return the stolen statues to Greece and it's people, where, and to whom, they belong. Let God/nature take care of the rest. Movie The First Line did a great job of conveying the arrogant, paternalistic stubbornness of the prig official at the museum, and all who had a hand in denying justice.
Weird argument! The Acropolis Museum is anti- seismic! It's a feeble point against the re- unification of the Parhenon Sculptures. Especially the Parthenon frieze! It would be an honour to the everlasting symbol of free expression and democracy!
The Parthenon has survived all kind of natural disasters for 2500 years . Your point is nonsensical . England is one of the biggest targets for terrorists from the middle east right now and was the country in west Europe with the most terror attacks during the 70s 80s and 90s . I wouldnt call that a safe country.
"The question is 'What do we do now?'"
Well, the answer is GIVE BACK THE STOLEN SCULPTURES!
Seems obvious, give the statues back!. . . But it's also true that a fair amount of historical items like these, would have been lost forever had they not been displaced.
Lord Elgin saved the remaining works from the negligence of the Turks, who are responsible for much of the damage to the building, including an explosion of ammunition incredibly stored in the building. In addition, the Greeks owe their independence to the British and French, who intervened in the revolution against the Turks. This has nothing to do with imperialism. I’m sure many people wept to see what had happened to one of the greatest artistic achievements in world history. Leave them where they are, they’re in the safest place in the world!
You conviniently tend to forget the fact that Lord Elgin's men chainsawed them from the frieze and the metope throwing them to the ground and breaking many of them in order to illegally acquire them. His permission was found at the archives of the high Gate now directed by the Turkish state. It was perfectly clear cited in it that he had only the right to copy them in paper or even make replicas out of them not chainsaw and remove them from the Parthenon.Furthermore you tend to forget what katastrophic action in the 30's the British museum imposed to them. In order to make them more appealing a crew of its "maintenance" brushed them with steel brushes and used chissles to make them more white thus completely destroying their bimillenial patina formed on them making much more succeptible to pollution. Not to mention the fact that we have seen the British museum leaking rain ☔ from the roof in that exactly wing that they are kept in. I honestly laugh with the claim safest place of the world !!!!
Well, let’s not exclude the part that the Venetian bombardment caused the explosion…
The Marbles should stay at the British Museum. There is no obvious sense that any art object should ever be returned to its place of origin. Every great museum in the world contains objects from around the world, and so it should be.
Jon Zeno Those marbles have been looted from the Parthenon itself. They belong to the building.
@@srfrg9707 Not looted. There was nothing sinister in Elgin acquiring the works. Although I am conflicted in where they should rest.
I sometimes see them with my minds eye; they are there as well.
Vincit Omnia Veritas Looted indeed and there a plenty of sinister events in this :
1) Greece was occupied by the Turks. Elgin was the embassador of GB to Constantinople. He used his position to obtain a firman from the sultan. The political situation of Greece had already been that of successive insurrections of the Greeks and repression by the Turks such as the massacres in Chio island.
2) The marbles were still on the Parthenon. Elgin damaged both the stucture and many marbles in the attempt to remove them.
3) One sculture at least fall during the process and broke into pieces.
4) The boat sank with its load during the voyage from Athens to GB. The marbles rest in the bottom of the seal for a few years before Elgin managed to recover them from the wreck. The damages are not documented but it's obvious there was damages.
5) Elgin store the marbles in his coal reserve. He intended to use them to decorate his f..ing country house. Just the tought of that gives to any Greek ideas I can express on YT.
6) When he finaly tried to sell them to the BRitish Museum, the british parliement washed its hand concerning the looting, in other words, recognised it was a looting indeed.
7) The British Museum "cleaned" the marbles using wired brushes from any remaining traces of polychromie in order to make them match with their conception of white purety in greek art.
There are a few other points making the british position quite arrogant in our point of view, among which the role the UK player in imposing the monarchy upon Greeks after WWII leading to a civil war, with british tanks in the streets of Athens.
@@srfrg9707 Elgin did not have lawful permission to take them. The Ottoman Empire did not have legal ownership of the Parthenon and marbles. It will be a day of celebration when the originals are returned to their home.
nope only british museum have art object's from other places of origin(greece,egipt,india and more)if you take them from this museum they will have nothing to present.....Greece has a lot of museums go there and take a look ,you will not find a single thing that belong to other country's because greece has a lot of culture to present and does not need to stole anything...